1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:09,039 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here. UM. Obviously, as I'm sure 2 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:11,880 Speaker 1: everyone is being bombarded with, the war in Ukraine is 3 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: uh in its fifth day right now something like that. Um. 4 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: We just passed ninety six hours. By some accounts, more 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: than three hundred thousand people have been made refugees. Those 6 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: are going to be very in exact numbers, but it's 7 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: it's likely to be somewhere between like fifty and a 8 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 1: hundred thousand people per day being made refugees, and it's 9 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: possible that's gonna last for the foreseeable future. Much of 10 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: the coverage that you will have seen at this point, 11 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,160 Speaker 1: UM is going to focus on heroic pieces of of 12 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 1: of resistance, you know, things that Ukrainian civilians picking up arms, 13 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: throwing Molotov cocktails, Ukrainian soldiers destroying Russian armored columns. Some 14 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: of that's gonna be a propaganda some of that A 15 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: decent amount of that's actually happening. Obviously, we have a 16 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: fair amount of documentation, but what I think has not 17 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: gotten nearly as much play as the situation at the 18 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: border of Ukraine in Poland. UM. Because this refugee crisis 19 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: is enormous, but it's also not sexy, and it points 20 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: to a number of things that are ugly about some 21 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: of the stuff that people like to celebrate this conflict, 22 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: including the conduct of President Zelinsky, who is i think 23 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: handled himself objectively well as a wartime leader, and who 24 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: is also, as you'll hear in the interview that's about 25 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: to follow, made some decisions that have had a catastrophic 26 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: impact on people's lives. So this is an interview conducted 27 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: by a journalist H. James Stout, who is working with 28 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: us on this project and with another project that will 29 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: be launching soon, with a person, an individual, an American 30 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: who was well has a couple of different passports, but 31 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: with a person who was in Ukraine when the invasion 32 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: began and left and eventually wound up leaving on foot 33 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: with tens of thousands of other people for the Polish border. 34 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: So this is a story of what it is like 35 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: to flee a country at the beginning of a war 36 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: um and and the realities that increasing numbers of Ukrainians 37 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: are going to be facing every single day. So please listen, 38 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: Hey Manny, how are you I'm doing well? How are 39 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: you good? Good? It's ready to keep you up late. 40 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: I'm period exhausted. No, No, it's okay, it's okay. Um. 41 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 1: I actually just arrived at a new hostel in New City. Um, 42 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: and I'm going to be up for a couple more 43 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: hours anyway, so it's a good time to talk. Nice. Great, 44 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: do you mind if I record this? Go ahead? Cool? Excellent, 45 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,119 Speaker 1: and let me explain what we're gonna do. So I'm 46 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: I'm bringing the piece for NBC on the the refugee 47 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: situation that's emerging, and then I'm also helping to make 48 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: a podcast for I Heart Radio about a similar thing. 49 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 1: So it's okay with you. We'll use the audio for 50 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: one and then some of your words for another. Absolutely, 51 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: how is my audio coming through? It's great, Actually, it's 52 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: really really good. But you wanted to telephone or you 53 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: on a computer. I'm on a telephone right now. I 54 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 1: don't have a computer with me. Now, you're doing really well. 55 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: If you're on a computer, i'd ask you to record 56 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,679 Speaker 1: it back up, but this is just fine. I'm recording. 57 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: So yeah, like, um, it seems like you've had a 58 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: pretty exhausting forty eight hours now. So if we go 59 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: back to when you were in Kiev, right, Yeah, So 60 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: I was in Kiev a few days ago. I was 61 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: in Kiev, um eight days ago. Um. And then I 62 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: went to Lviv four days ago. Okay. And had you 63 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: been how long have you been in Ukraine? I had been. 64 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: I've been in Ukraine or I had been in Ukraine 65 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: in total for one week, okay, so you have not 66 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: that long. And you so you're riding Kiev, you went 67 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: to Leviv. Can you remember, like where you were when 68 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: you found out that the invasion was happening and that 69 00:03:58,040 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: it was going to go past don Bass and into 70 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: you Grane, Yeah, of course. So I woke up on 71 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: the morning of twenty four February to the sound of 72 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: air raid sirens outside, and it was a very confusing sound. 73 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: I had never heard it right, sirens in real life. 74 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: I just heard them in movies and television shows and such. 75 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: And I knew immediately what had happened. I didn't even 76 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: have to check the news, um. And I did check 77 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: the news soon afterward, and there were bombings all over 78 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: the country. There were reports of bombings in Ivana front Kiss, 79 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: which is a city one south of le Viv, where 80 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: I was, and there were so many rumors flying around. 81 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: There were rumors that the Russians were coming coming to 82 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: Levv at that moment, which was not the case but 83 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: can still be the case very soon. Anyway, So we 84 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 1: heard I heard these these air raids sirens as I 85 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: woke up, and I shook away my roommate, who was 86 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: a British journalist, um, and I told him we might 87 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: be bombed any minute. So we went outside to try 88 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 1: and find a shelter. Um, pretty much still in our nightclothes, 89 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: we went outside to try and find a shelter. They 90 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: were a loudspeakers saying, uh, everybody remained calm, fine shelter 91 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: helped the elderly stockpile water, and it was repeating this 92 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: on repeat, and people were shuffling along. There was a 93 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: sense of muted panic. So it was an outright panic, 94 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: but it was a sense of urgency, I guess you 95 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,799 Speaker 1: could call it. And um, we were at war and 96 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: that was when I realized that Ukraine was being invaded 97 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: at that very moment. Wow, yeah, it sounds dramatic. And 98 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: at that point you went to the shelter, I'm guessing, 99 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: so did you spend some time then before making the 100 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 1: decision to head to Poland? So after about fifteen minutes 101 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: the air rates I would stopped. The news generally came 102 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: around the city that Lviv was not about to be bombed, 103 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: but nevertheless, massive exodus of people began from Leviv at 104 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: that moment. Because okay, we're safe for now, but for 105 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: how long are we safe? Was the general sentiment that 106 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: was around. So Um, everybody just started making for the 107 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: trains station, the bus station. They got into their cars. 108 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: People were just leaving. There were huge lines at the 109 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: A T. M s. There were huge lines at the 110 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,599 Speaker 1: grocery stores. People were buying non perishables. Um. It was 111 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: just not a panic pull out, I want to call it, 112 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:17,559 Speaker 1: but it was an urgent departure. It was an urgent 113 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: exodus that was happening. And so me and my roommate 114 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: we went to the train station, waited in the line 115 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: for two hours to see if there were tickets. There 116 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: were no tickets. We went to the bus station. We 117 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: waited in the line for one hour to see if 118 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: there were tickets. There were no tickets. Um, And so 119 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: then we started to get a little worried because it 120 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: was noon on the day of the invasion. Russian forces 121 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: were everywhere in the country of our bombings. Everywhere in 122 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 1: the country and we had to leave, and there was 123 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: no viable means to leave. The airport was closed. Of course, 124 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 1: the airport was being bombed a few hours later. Um. 125 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 1: And so we tried to look into car higher. We 126 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: tried to see if we could rent a car. We 127 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 1: tried to see if we could take an uber or 128 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: a lift or a blah blah car, which is the 129 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: Ukrainian version of Uber. And none of those options were available. 130 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: Because everybody was thinking the same thing, and in a 131 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:14,559 Speaker 1: sense of almost resigned despair, we decided that it would 132 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: be best to just start walking west and see what happened. 133 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: And there was around noon when we began to walk west. Wow. Um. 134 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: So when you you set off to walk, did you 135 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: just sort of take what you could carry and that's 136 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: sort of what most people were doing, or did you 137 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: get the sense that at least the people were like 138 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: preparing for a long period of time away when they left. 139 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: The people certainly were not preparing for a long period 140 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: of time away. The people were not preparing for war. Um. 141 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: For the longest time, President Zelinski and the Ukrainian government 142 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: maintained that there would be no war. They called indications 143 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: of war alarmists, they called them ludicrous, and uh, it 144 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: was only in the final twenty four hours that everybody 145 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: sort of woke up and said there's going to be 146 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: a war. So I remember the last day before were 147 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: the invasion. People were getting ready, people were waiting at 148 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: the A T. M s. People were buying groceries, people 149 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: were packing. But it was not before before that time, 150 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: nobody was getting ready for the war. And so when 151 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:16,559 Speaker 1: the war struck, everybody, uh, everybody just sort of left 152 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: hastily and it was a terrifying departure, of a sudden 153 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: and terrifying departure because people didn't know what to do 154 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: and they just sort of grabbed what they had and 155 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: they ran. Luckily for me, in my roommate, we were 156 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: traveling with, you know, just one pack or so because 157 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: we were not living in Ukraine, um, and so we 158 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: were able to just carry what we had on our backs. Yeah. 159 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: So he told me through that walk then it's I 160 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: think that's sort of like forty three miles is a right, 161 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: That's that's right. So we did take a municipal bus 162 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: a little bit of the way, which are the municipal bus. 163 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: I believe it was five kilometers down the road road 164 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: UM five kilometers being like three miles down the road, UM. 165 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,559 Speaker 1: And the total distance from LVIV to the borders eight 166 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 1: eighty kilometers, sorry eighty kilometers. Uh. So that really did 167 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: not make a dent at all in the distance. And 168 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: it was noon when we started, and we knew for 169 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 1: a fact that UM, that we would not make it 170 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 1: before nightfall. And we knew that and we were terrified 171 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: at that. So at first we walked along the countryside 172 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: was picturesque, it was beautiful, It was indistinguishable from holiday 173 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: during springtime. There was a fair, fair weather, it was sunny, UM, 174 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:26,599 Speaker 1: and no one could even tell that the nation was 175 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: at war. There was really nobody else walking on the 176 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: road besides us in the beginning, and the first twenty kilometers, 177 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 1: I would say, UM. And then we started seeing long 178 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: lines of the petrol stations. Every everywhere was out of gas. 179 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: There nobody had gas. UM. There was just no ability 180 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,839 Speaker 1: to fuel cars. And as a consequence of that, UM 181 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: cars were running out of gas and they were being 182 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: abandoned on the side of the road, which caused further 183 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: traffic pile ups, and soon the road was impenetrable to vehicles. 184 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:05,719 Speaker 1: UM and so because of this, everybody started getting out 185 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: of their cars and walking, And so these families who 186 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: had planned to escape Mukraine to Poland in their cars 187 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: and carry their lives with them were suddenly faced with 188 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: the hard decision of taking what they could carry with them. Yeah, 189 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 1: that just sounds terrible. That sounds really difficult. And I'm 190 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: sure you saw like older folks and younger people as well, 191 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: with people sort of and struggling to do. That's a 192 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: long walk, right, that's nd a walk and everyone can 193 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: do it, must be very dear. It's a difficult walk 194 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 1: for a young man. And many old women and little 195 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: children under the age of five or forced on this 196 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: march because there really was no other option for them. 197 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: It was either go back to Ukraine and risk being bombed, 198 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,839 Speaker 1: risk being under Russian occupation, or it was get out 199 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: of your car and walk in the wintertime with no 200 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: food or water, no toilet, four fifty miles. And it 201 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: was just this nightmare scenario because all these people were 202 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: on the road. There were people in wheelchairs who couldn't 203 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: negotiate the mud. There were mothers with strollers who couldn't 204 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 1: get get the children um out, and the children were crying, 205 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: and the children were asking why are we here, what 206 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: it will be doing? Why did we have to leave 207 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: home and stand and walk fifty miles in the middle 208 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: of winter. Um. And the old people were sort of 209 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: resigned to it. They There was one old woman I 210 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: passed to was using a cane and she was hobbling 211 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: along jade to backpack and I asked her, where are 212 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: you going, because we were a part, we were a 213 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: long long way from the border, and she said, I'm 214 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: going to Poland, very simply. It was a very matter 215 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: of fact, um statement. And so these people walked with 216 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: a sense of duty and a sense of urgency, and um, 217 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: it was just a very tragic humanitarian scene. Yeah, I 218 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: can imagine. And that was a major that was a 219 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: major route that year on right, like a major road 220 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: that just become impossible. It wasn't one of the bigger highway, 221 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: but it was I believe the M eleven, the Ukrainian 222 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: M eleven and it runs east west throughout the country 223 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: and uh, yeah, it's one of the major roads and 224 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: it had become completely clogged. Yeah. So on arrival in 225 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: im Poland or the border, and I understand that there's 226 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:23,599 Speaker 1: some men like broadly defined as like military age or 227 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: eighteen to sixty. I think aren't allowed us and leave 228 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: because they they have they have to stay in it 229 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: and enlist. Is that right? Did you see? Yes? The 230 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,839 Speaker 1: border was absolutely the worst part for that reason. About 231 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: five kilometers from the border, at the end of our walk, 232 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: we were feeling relieved. We were feeling like, finally we've 233 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: made it. Ukrainian military patrols started walking by and driving 234 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: by and announcing through loud speakers and announcing with their 235 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 1: own voices, Um, all men must stay. All men between 236 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: the ages of eighteen and sixty have to stay. Get 237 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: out of line now. And so the fathers naturally asked, 238 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: because there were a lot of fathers who were there 239 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: to protect their families, to safeguard their families, and to 240 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,319 Speaker 1: provide for their families. Uh, these fathers asked, how about us, 241 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: we have to we have little children, We have children 242 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: under the age of five. How are we supposed to 243 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: provide for them? If you conscript us right here? The 244 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: Ukrainian army did not care. They pulled them away physically 245 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: from their families. There were a lot of tears, There 246 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: was a lot of crying, There were a lot of 247 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: hurried goodbyes. Brothers left, sisters, mothers left, husbands, um, lovers 248 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: left each other. People, people just left. It was terrifying 249 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: to watch. Um. Yeah, all these men were conscripted immediately 250 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: into the army. Yeah, I can imagine. And what people 251 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: at that point like it seems like that we're ready 252 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: to be stoic. Up to that point, were people sort 253 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: of resisting that like gift with aid, like sort of 254 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: sad but resigned to it. That was that Well, that 255 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: was when the panic began because everybody was sad but 256 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: resigned to their faith of walking to Poland. But nobody 257 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: was prepared for losing all the on Um. So when 258 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: all the men were lost, when all the men were 259 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 1: taken forcibly and this was public, everybody could see these 260 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: men being yanked from their families. Uh. People first started 261 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: yelling at the soldiers that didn't do anything obviously um 262 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: and they were they were so angry at the soldiers 263 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: and the soldiers were didn't care. Um. And then panic 264 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: began because people realized, oh my god, this this person 265 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: who was here with us, who was a travel companion, 266 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: who's a relative, Now we have to leave without him. 267 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: And even more, he's going to the front now and 268 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: he is in great danger at the front. So people 269 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: began pushing, they began shoving, they began being rude to 270 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: one another. Um. There there was no sense of empathy 271 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: among the people at all because it was a panic 272 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: to get across the border at that point. Um. So 273 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: there were people fainting, uh, and that was really just overlooked. 274 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: The people who fainted were sort of dragged to the 275 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: side and left there and I think they they made it. 276 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: I don't know if they made it out. Okay, they 277 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: certainly didn't die. But there were people who were fainting. 278 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: There are people who were sobbing, There are people who 279 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: were hyperventilating. That was vomiting going on. It was just 280 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: this sense of absolute human panic as people just tried 281 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: to escape. In the last in the last five kilometers 282 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: and especially in the last was the very worst. So, yeah, 283 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: terrible thing to see. If you hadn't say you stay 284 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: in touch. One of the lads who was conscripted right, yes, 285 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: that that was a development from tonight. So while we 286 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: were walking about this was about fifteen kilometers out from 287 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: the border, we met a young Ukrainian man um and 288 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: we just got to talking to him because I mean, 289 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: we could relate to him. We were about I'm about 290 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: the same age as him, um, and so I we 291 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: were just like sort of talking about our lives and 292 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: it was almost as if the war wasn't going on. 293 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: And then we got to these army checkpoints um, and 294 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: they started calling all the men you have to you 295 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: have to leave, um. And so my friend said, oh, 296 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not leaving. I don't want to fight 297 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: in this war. And he tried to, you know, sort of, um, 298 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: stay with us. Because we were foreigners, we were not 299 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: we were not eligible to be conscripted, so he sort 300 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: of tried to stay with us. He was he was 301 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: a student. He was trying not to fight in this 302 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: war because he had a life elsewhere. He had a 303 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: girlfriend who who was traveling with U. And so we 304 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: we were walking with him and I said, hey, do 305 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: you want to do an interview? He said sure, um, 306 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 1: and I started talking to him on camera, and then 307 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: the soldier came by and yelled in his direction, hey, 308 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: you get out of line, and um. He said, I'm sorry, 309 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: I have to go, and he just gave me this look, 310 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: like this desparing look, and he went with the soldier. 311 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: UM the two days later. Today tonight, he messaged me 312 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: on Instagram and he said, because we by the way, 313 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: we had exchange contact information where we were talking. Um. 314 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: He messaged me on Instagram and he said, hey, I 315 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: saw that you mentioned me and uh in your Twitter 316 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 1: because I told him about the Twitter as well. UM, 317 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: and he said, just letting you know I'm safe if 318 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,439 Speaker 1: I'm not in the East fighting the Russians. Um, I 319 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: am in Leviv and I am safe. And it is 320 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: my knowledge that he may have escaped conscription because he 321 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: would otherwise be in the East. But um, I'm not sure. 322 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: I just know that he was safe right now, and 323 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: he confirmed that he was safe. Okay, So so yeah, 324 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 1: you're not sure whether he's doing training or whether he's 325 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 1: in Smresti role or if he's managed to get out 326 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 1: of it. To himhow I know that he has managed 327 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 1: to escape the brunt of the fighting of the Russians, 328 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 1: that's right, Yeah, okay, yeah, good for him, But it's 329 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: still a terrible thing to have to do with. So 330 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: it's my understanding. It's a visa. There's visa free entry 331 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: into Poland right now? Is that right? That people can 332 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 1: walk aggressively. Yes, the entry into Poland was an absolute 333 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: priest compared to the exit from Ukraine. I don't know why, 334 00:17:57,920 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 1: but you have to wait in a long line and 335 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: rain for an exit piece, just for permission to leave 336 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 1: the country. And so, as I mentioned, that was the 337 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: worst part because they were only letting ten people out 338 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: every twenty minutes. That ten people get an exit visa 339 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: every twenty minutes, and there were at least two thousand 340 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: people at the border with US, and so that's that's 341 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: where this panic happened, is because every time they opened 342 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: that gate every twenty minutes, and by the way, this 343 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: is like two in the morning in the cold weather, 344 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 1: and people are as I mentioned, crying, vomiting, fainting, um. 345 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: And so every time they opened that gate, there was 346 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: a human crush to get to that gate, and it 347 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,199 Speaker 1: closed it and they forced the people back, and then 348 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: it was another twenty minutes before it happened again. And 349 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: this happened all night long, um. And this was literally 350 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: just to get permission to exit the country. It was ludicrous, 351 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: it was insane. UM. So yeah, I'm sorry to divert 352 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: from your question, but it's very interesting. Poland was extremely 353 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: easy to enter. There was no visa process. They understood. 354 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: They let us through. I think they just barely looked 355 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: at our passports. UM. So yeah, it was it was 356 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: easy when you at that point, like obviously had no 357 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 1: plans or places to go, and they could they house 358 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: you with some kind of refugee housing that they put 359 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: you in. Uh not when I was there, Um, they 360 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: did do that. They did implement that about twelve hours 361 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: after I arrived. Um. But when I arrived, we were 362 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: greeted immediately pretty much right out of the border facility 363 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: with donuts and tea um. And so they gave us donuts, 364 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: they gave us tea UM. And then they said, hey, 365 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: there's a bus to Premishill, which is the city about 366 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: fifteen kilometers west of the border, um where all the 367 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: refugees are gathering. And they said there's a bus the 368 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: Premiership at least every fifteen minutes. And we got on 369 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 1: that bus um and then we end up we arrived 370 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: in Premiershill and at that time refugees were responsible for 371 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 1: their own accommodation. We managed to book a room in 372 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: a whole tell with eight other refugees um in the room. Uh. 373 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 1: And so I was sleeping in this this room with 374 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: eight other refugees. They didn't want to talk to me. 375 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 1: They were kind of despondent. They lost everything, and so 376 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: they were just very sad the entire time that I 377 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: was there. Yeah, but to answer your question about housing 378 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: real quick, uh, about twelve hours after we arrived, they 379 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: began setting up tents for the refugees, and that is 380 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 1: where many of the refugees are living now. Intense Okay, 381 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: it's that you know, that's a Polish government or the 382 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: Red Cross or is that citizens of Poland. I have 383 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 1: no idea which organization did that, but I can tell 384 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 1: you that I did not see a single Red Cross 385 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: or United Nations representative while I was in Poland. Okay. Interesting, Yeah, 386 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: they can be sometimes a little slow to react and yeah, yeah, okay, 387 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: So you then stayed in that hostel, you weren't able 388 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: to really talk to the people there because understandable, they 389 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: probably had a very very difficult twenty four hours and 390 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: we all had had Yeah, I mean, no talking was 391 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: being had pretty much. Did you get a sense when 392 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: as you met the people walking there, crossing the border, 393 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 1: et cetera, where people did they have plans to be gone? 394 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 1: From Ukraine. Were they thinking where can I stay for 395 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: a long period of time? Were they thinking I'm going 396 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: to wait this out in Poland and see? Um? I 397 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: was pleasantly surprised that a good half of the people 398 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: that I spoke to in that in that convoy, in 399 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 1: the refugee caravan had relatives either in Poland or elsewhere 400 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: in Europe. Um, And so they were all they had 401 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: all called their relatives and they had arranged them to 402 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: go to Western Europe and meet their relatives. Okay, yes, 403 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: and they've got a place and they're planning to at least. However, 404 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: another half of them have no plans whatsoever, and they're terrified. 405 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 1: And those are the refugees that I stayed with the 406 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: hotel last night. Um. Is that they're terrified and they 407 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: have no place to go. Yeah, right, and no one's 408 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: really provided them with one yet. No. Yeah, that's difficult. 409 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: And it seems like I don't have to be interesting 410 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 1: to see how the United States three acts because it 411 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 1: hasn't really done very much so far. Um. It's amazing. 412 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 1: I heard that the reason I crossed at that place 413 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: rather than any other places that I heard that the U. S. 414 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: Army was there and I did not see the U 415 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 1: S Army, and I searched for them and I did 416 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: not find them. So I don't know where the U 417 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: S is. Okay, Yeah, you haven't seen any any evidence 418 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: of like any seeing no sort of n POS or 419 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 1: government sort of aid for refugees yet then it's kind 420 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 1: of surprising. As I mentioned, I haven't seen any U 421 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: N representative, any Red Cross representative, any WHO representative. I 422 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: haven't seen any NGO or governmental representatives. I did see, 423 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 1: of course Polish government representatives at the border, but that 424 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: was about it, right, it said from Polish people. Do 425 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: you get a sense of sort of solidarity? How I 426 00:22:54,440 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 1: think talking about so it was actually amazing to say, 427 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: it was heartwarming to see the citizens of Freshman Dell 428 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 1: are now swamped. Their population has been doubled or tripled 429 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:11,439 Speaker 1: by the incoming Ukrainian refugees, and yet they are showing 430 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: great amounts of solidarity. I actually attended a solidarity rally 431 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 1: today um where the citizens of Freshman Dill got together 432 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,919 Speaker 1: and they said ukraine Is are our brothers and putin 433 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 1: us clearly in the wrong, and we will stand with them, 434 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: we will show solidarity with them, and that that was 435 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: hard warming to say. I talked with a few of 436 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: those Poles at that rally and they said, yeah, we 437 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: knew this was coming and we prepared for it and 438 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: we're ready to take in as many as is necessary. Yeah, 439 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: that's really nice to herrity that these people are sort 440 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: of showing solidarity with each other, in support with each other. 441 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: And yes, yeah, so when you were on your way west, 442 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: I presume that, like the conflict didn't catch up with you, right, 443 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 1: You weren't to be said, act like indirect fire or 444 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: you see any of that. No, However, there was about 445 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 1: fifty behind us a bombing. As I mentioned. We did 446 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: not hear it, but there were reports of the fighting 447 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: going on all the time. But it's not catch up 448 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,239 Speaker 1: to us while we were in that h while we 449 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: were in that caravan, and um, it would have been 450 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: absolutely terrifying if it had. But I'm glad that it 451 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: did that, right. Yeah. And then so you've been there 452 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 1: for about a week. Had you previously been doing some 453 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: reporting in Ukraine. I've never done reporting in Ukraine before, 454 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 1: But when I came to Ukraine and the war had 455 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: not even started, I was mostly just doing interviews with 456 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: civilians about what they thought about the possibility of war, 457 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: about what they thought about the war, and don Bass 458 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 1: um most a lot of cultural stuff. It was kind 459 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 1: of boring. I mean not that not that war is 460 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: interesting or fun, but it was not really much of 461 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,919 Speaker 1: a story um So. I was just doing interviews with 462 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 1: people about basic Ukrainian things, and then the war found 463 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: us so and it seemed to have come as much 464 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 1: a shock to them as it did to the rest 465 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: of us. As I mentioned, nobody was prepared for war 466 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 1: until about twenty four hours before it hit, and that's 467 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: when the Ukrainian government said, yes, there will be a war, 468 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: and everybody began sort of to have a sense of 469 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: urgency about them. Did you see any of the citizen 470 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 1: militias and citizens preparing for defense the people who decided 471 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 1: to stay. Yes, I didn't see any of the militias. 472 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: But I was went into a Ukrainian gun shopping Kiev 473 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 1: and there was a line almost off the door. People 474 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: were buying guns, um And I asked one of the 475 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,120 Speaker 1: people on the line, why are you buying a gun? 476 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 1: And he said, if the Russians come, I want to 477 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: be prepared. So a lot of people are buying guns 478 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: privately in Kiev at least as of last week, okay, 479 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: so that they weren't wait for the government to supply 480 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: then they were supplying themselves with guns. I believe. I 481 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: believe the government supply was a rather um my sudden decision. 482 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: I don't think the ukraining people were counting on it. 483 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,679 Speaker 1: And so they were supplying themselves and then buying like 484 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,199 Speaker 1: like collectionkov To rifles, and we talked about hunting rifles 485 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: and yeah, you can't buy flashing cobs in the gun store. 486 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: They were buying sort of hunting rifles and shotguns Jesus. Okay, yeah, yeah, 487 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 1: really under equipped, all right, So they were just prepared 488 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: to trying to get anything they could get their hands 489 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 1: on to look after themselves and their families. Yeah. I 490 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: bought peper spray. Yeah better than nothing. Uh yeah, okay, 491 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: so yeah there was there was Did you see, like 492 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: the people you walked with with it, did families tend 493 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: to leave as a whole or did did some folks 494 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: so say I'm going to stay behind and fight, or 495 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 1: I'm going to stay behind to stay and look after 496 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 1: a house and you should leave. Didn't get the center 497 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: that the vast majority of people traveling were families as 498 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: a whole. There were very few single travelers or partial 499 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: families traveling. It was I think that people wanted to 500 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: stick together, and so it was the vast majority of 501 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 1: people traveling were families. Okay, yeah, yeah, so they all 502 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: stayed or left. Do you get a sense of how 503 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: many people you said about two thousand people at the border, 504 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: like of what protortion of the city decided to leave 505 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: for Poland? Not all the people that the border were 506 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: from leviv Um. A lot of them have been traveling 507 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: since that morning from Kiev, uh in other cities in 508 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: uh central western Ukraine. Um So, yeah, I was talking 509 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: to people at the border, and a lot of them 510 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: were from Kiev, A lot of them were from zephyr Ziza. 511 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: I'm pronouncing that wrong. A lot of them were from 512 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:29,120 Speaker 1: turner Pill or Ivana, frankisk Um or Odessa and uh 513 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: so I would not have any sort of conjecture on 514 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,679 Speaker 1: what percentage of the city. Also, still pretty early in 515 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: the crisis, uh because it was still the first day 516 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: and it was fewer than twenty four hours after the 517 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,719 Speaker 1: invasion began. So I imagine the numbers are a lot 518 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: higher now. When you were getting us, right if you 519 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 1: were traveling, et cetera, where you like on what Apple? 520 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 1: What people on Twitter? Like, how are they getting news 521 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: of what was happening? Everybody, and absolutely everybody was completely 522 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 1: dark during the walk, um because I don't know why, 523 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: but there was no sense of cell reception, there was 524 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: no sense of data reception, there was no sense of 525 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: Internet connection at all during the walk. And so everybody 526 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,400 Speaker 1: I met, we we asked, we asked everybody we met, 527 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: do you have any news? And they said no, do 528 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: you have any news? Um? So nobody had any news 529 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: until we got to the border. Some people had news, 530 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 1: but for about about sixteen hours we were completely in 531 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: the dark about what was going on. And that was 532 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: terrifying because when we left the invasion had just begun 533 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: and we didn't get to be updated on the first 534 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: half day. So yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, and then on 535 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: arrival you're faced with this news of this like sort 536 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: of blitzkre egl lifed right bombing and right yes, um, 537 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: I mean we we saw a little it of it 538 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: in the morning that day, well when we when we 539 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: started out, um, but it had really accelerated and amplified 540 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: by the time that we arrived um and the Ukrainians 541 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: were absolutely terrified at this because they did not realize 542 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: what happened on such a large scale. Yeah, I think 543 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: very few people did. Okay, imagine if it's in your 544 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: own country, it's petrifying. Were you there when the fighting 545 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: began in the Chernobyl exclusions? I know, were you in 546 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 1: Poland by then? When did the fighting began in Chernal? 547 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: I believe about twenty four hours after the fighting began, 548 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: big period. I was crossing in the Poland twenty four 549 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: hours after the fighting began, period, So I was probably 550 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: crossing into Poland when that fighting began. Okay. You know, 551 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: it's interesting to know, especially how sort of the older 552 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: people or people who have been alive, like the nuclear accidents, 553 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: you know. But it's wondering how I mean, I've been 554 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: talking to plenty of plenty of older people, and as 555 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: I mentioned, the older people especially were resigned to this 556 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: because during the Soviet times, during the cold for the 557 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: sort of thing was common, um, And so the older 558 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: people knew what was going on, and the younger people 559 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: were the ones who were more panicking. That's interesting. Yeah, 560 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: they said they've been raised with a fear of that 561 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:18,239 Speaker 1: I suppose, right, and this happened in too, like this 562 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 1: is the biggest refugee crisis since nineteen eight nine, because 563 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 1: in nine nine, when all the republics fell in the 564 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: Warsaw Pact, so many people starched to the roads, and 565 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: so the older people were used to that kind of thing. Um, 566 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: But as I mentioned, the younger people were not so right, yeah, yeah, 567 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: and so yeah, it's different reactions, I guess. And it's 568 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: very young people obviously unable to understand what's going on, 569 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: and beyond their leaving their homes, which is said right, 570 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: and especially the little children had no idea what was 571 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: going on, and it was impossible to explain to them, 572 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: so nobody did, um. And so I can't imagine how 573 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: terrifying this must have been as a child, not knowing 574 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: why you had to walk dozens of hours in the 575 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: cold carrying everything had. Yeah, it's always the saddest thing 576 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: to see children in those refugee situations when we obviously 577 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: don't know what's going on and didn't do anything wrong. 578 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: And right, yea, hopefully they're all safe, Hopefully they're in Poland, 579 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: hopefully they can go to safe places. I made several 580 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: contexts during this trip. And as I mentioned, only one 581 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: of one of them has gone back to me, So 582 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: I hope the others get back to me soon. Yeah 583 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: that's tough, but you've got the sense of everyone since 584 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: they weren't turned back, per say, they just might be 585 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: sort of not in touch because their phones don't charged 586 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: or something like that. It's either their phones aren't aren't charged, 587 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 1: or in the men men's case, they were sent to 588 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: the East, or they're too busy trying to arrange accommodations 589 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,479 Speaker 1: or food for themselves or something. I mean, everybody was 590 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: just very busy trying to survive. Yeah, so I don't 591 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: blame them if they don't, if they don't hop on 592 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: social media, Yeah, yeah, of course. And of course, yeah, 593 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: I did very very stressful time for everyone. Did you 594 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: did you hear of anyone who has been sent to 595 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: the east the second hand or like three people you 596 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: met people who are at the front already. Um, I 597 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: do not have any contacts of anybody who was sent 598 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: to the East. From what I understand, the Ukrainian Army 599 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: has a strict uh communication social media sort of policy, 600 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: and so none of these soldiers that I met one 601 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: wanted to talk to me. I did not talk to 602 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: any Ukrainian Army soldiers in uniform because they had a 603 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 1: very strict policy. They could not talk to me, and 604 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: too I could not get their contacts for much of 605 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: the same reason. Okay, so they didn't want to talk 606 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: to you, an, I didn't want to talk to anyone. 607 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: They were just looking for you know that, they were 608 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: just they were very stern and they did not want 609 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: to talk to anybody. So I talked to zero soldiers 610 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: in uniform during this experience. Okay, yeah, so where are 611 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: you now? You've you've gone further west west? Is that right? 612 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: That's right. I took a long bus ride to crack 613 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: Off today. Um, and so I'm now crack Off, Poland. Okay, 614 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: how folks dealing? Is it different there being a little 615 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: bit more distant. I already talked to a few people, 616 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: and uh, well it's a Saturday night. They're going out 617 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 1: to drink, and they they're saying, well, yeah, it's it's 618 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: terrible that this war is happening two fifty niles east 619 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 1: of us, but what are we supposed to do about it? 620 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: So they're going out and drinking. So it's this very 621 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: detached sense here and crack out. Not the same as 622 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: it was in freshmanvill Yeah. Interesting to people are living 623 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 1: their normal life and it's just it's a news item 624 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: for them. It's they're not worried about any potential spill 625 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: over a fallout, right, Okay, yeah, they're not worried. Nice 626 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: and well you do you plan to stay there? What's 627 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: what's next to you? So I actually just booked a 628 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: flight uh an hour ago. I'm going to be flying 629 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: back to the States on Marsh the first. Okay, great, yeah, 630 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: so you can. You can come back and presubably you're 631 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: like your US passible holders that you could just get. 632 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: That's how you go through being conscripted, etcetera. I am 633 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: not I'm not carrying the US pass right now. I'm 634 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: carrying an Italian passport um because I'm also a citizen 635 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: of Italy and I was told before I left by 636 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: some friends in the intelligence community that it would look 637 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 1: significantly less suspicious to carry an EU passport than an 638 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,399 Speaker 1: US passport. So I bought the U passport. Nice. Yeah, 639 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: and then you can travel free d d yes, yeah yeah, yeah. 640 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: Do you know if Yukrainian people can creble once? Because 641 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,279 Speaker 1: once they're in Poland. Can they then move through the 642 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: Shangan's own freely. Ukraine is not a member of the EU, 643 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 1: They're not a member of Shangan. I do not believe 644 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 1: they can move really, right. I just wondering, like, yeah, 645 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: they would be I don't know how their passports would 646 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: be checked if they're going across some of those land 647 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: boarders that I think. I do know that this was 648 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 1: it was an emergency situation yesterday, and so that's why 649 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: they work just very personally checked, but I'm sure it's 650 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,840 Speaker 1: strictor usually. Yeah, I wonder what they would be like 651 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 1: if they tried to exit Poland or if Hill right, 652 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: I don't know what's going to happen to them, No, 653 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 1: I don't think. I'm guessing there's been no communication of 654 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: that that you've seen, either right leg of what they 655 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: should do or how to apply for asylum or anything 656 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,359 Speaker 1: like that. I have talked to a few people. They 657 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: say that they're banking on those countries being empathetic to refugees, 658 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,360 Speaker 1: and I understand. I think that countries will be empathetic 659 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,919 Speaker 1: to refugees. Yeah, yeah, said, do you certainly hope they will? 660 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 1: So they're just gonna hope that those countries, the ones 661 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,839 Speaker 1: who don't have a country to go to. You get 662 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 1: the senswer Yeah, that they'll they'll apply for asylum wherever 663 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 1: they can find a safe place. That's right, um, And 664 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: I believe that countries Western European countries that have been 665 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 1: very vocally pro Ukraine recently, UM, will take them in. 666 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,439 Speaker 1: So I think that they'll they'll be safe. Yeah, that's 667 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: good to hear. I know I've seen estimates of up 668 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:50,360 Speaker 1: to five million refugees, which would be I mean, Germany 669 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: absorbed a million people from Syria, right, it's not Yeah, 670 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: it's not impossible for Western European countries do that at all, 671 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 1: but it will, but it would still be a catastrophic crisis, 672 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 1: the worst than I needed. So yeah, I have to 673 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 1: hope it doesn't get to that. You get the sense 674 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: people are still flowing across the border. I know you're 675 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 1: a bit yes, I think for me, I mean, it's 676 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 1: weird because you want to believe that what you experienced 677 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: and what the people around you've experienced was a one 678 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 1: time thing, that it was a one time incident, that 679 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: it was one caravan. But this is happening constantly and 680 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: it will continue to happen constantly for weeks. Yeah, the 681 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,879 Speaker 1: trains and across the border, things like that that people 682 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 1: can take or is it solely yes. So when when 683 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:33,800 Speaker 1: I said that, I went to the train station and 684 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,280 Speaker 1: the leave and there were no trains, what was really 685 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: happening is, yes, there were trains, but all the trains 686 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:43,319 Speaker 1: until March March were booked so okay, so yeah, people 687 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,879 Speaker 1: can't take those trains across that kind of thing. Uh, 688 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: if they tried to book right now, they won't be 689 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,439 Speaker 1: able to find a booking for a while. Okay, they're 690 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: already booked up. And by the way, here in crack Out, Um, 691 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 1: the first two hostels that I went to, the first 692 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,120 Speaker 1: two places to stay that I went to, were all 693 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: booked up. And I asked why and he said Ukrainian refugees. 694 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: So there are Ukrainian refugees here and crack Out Okay, Yeah, 695 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: people are moving for it. I'm sure a lot of 696 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,759 Speaker 1: people want to get far aways they can. Yeah, so 697 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 1: people are just constantly moving lest right now. Yeah, but 698 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 1: they have friends of a family that they try to 699 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: get to it because yeah, and I've been hearing the 700 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 1: Ukrainian language just constantly on my trip so that's interesting too. Yeah, yeah, 701 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 1: thanks for that. It's a really really interesting insight. Is 702 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,320 Speaker 1: there anything else you think from your experience that people 703 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: ought to hear about? Um? No, I believe I've told 704 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 1: you everything. I've I've really told the story dozens of 705 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 1: times since it happened, and I really hope that I 706 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 1: hit all the all the right notes here. UM. If 707 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: you if you had to tell anything to the people 708 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 1: who were reading or listening to this, Um, Ukraine really 709 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 1: needs weapons, yes, but they also need humanitarian aid. When 710 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 1: I was walking all that distance with all those people, 711 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 1: there was not a single sense of food being provided 712 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:02,799 Speaker 1: to anyone, water being provided to anyone. There was no 713 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: chance to go to the toilet, there was often no 714 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,840 Speaker 1: chance to sit down. If we could give even a 715 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: chance for these people to eat something, to drink something, 716 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 1: to have a minute of solace, UM, that would mean 717 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 1: the world to them. And so I think that we 718 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 1: need to provide humanitarian aid to the refugees as soon 719 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 1: as possible. And you you said you didn't see any 720 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 1: organizations you'd suggest people donate to that you you didn't 721 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 1: see any of that? Is there anyone you can know? 722 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,800 Speaker 1: And I don't know. I haven't actually done the research, 723 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: and that I probably should. Um, but I I know 724 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: that the Welcome committee in Poland were private citizens. They 725 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 1: were not part of any energy or anything. They were 726 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:45,319 Speaker 1: private citizens. Are welcoming awesome? Yeah, I've seen some of 727 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: them organizing on Facebook, so alter I maybe linked to 728 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 1: some of those or something like that. So people going 729 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 1: to support right and all right, and then is there 730 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 1: anything like you'd like to to plug, like do you 731 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: have a you have a Twitter? Right? Is there anything 732 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 1: else you could tell us what your Twitter is? Um? 733 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: I mean, so the Twitter that I'm using for this, 734 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 1: which you've probably seen as a temporary one, it was 735 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: not only to cover this crisis. I guess my private 736 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 1: twitter plugged that. Which is you've seen that as well, probably, 737 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,279 Speaker 1: Um it's just my name. Um, yeah, I guess just 738 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: plugged that. And uh, I mean thank you for everything. No, 739 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 1: of course, Um it's Mannie Routta with two T s, right, Yes, 740 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 1: m A r O T t A great. Okay, we 741 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: got that, and yeah, thank you very much. Thanks for 742 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,720 Speaker 1: taking the time to talk. I appreciate a pretty difficult 743 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:33,799 Speaker 1: couple of days to get some rest. And if there's 744 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: anything else in any developments, please do let me give 745 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: me a shout tyler. Thank you? All right, cheeers mate? 746 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 1: Do you have a goody me? It could happen here 747 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 1: as a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts 748 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 1: from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone Media 749 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:53,399 Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the I Heart 750 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 751 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 1: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated 752 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,280 Speaker 1: monthly a cool Zone me to dot com slash sources. 753 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:03,280 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.