1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: I felt as if here I was hiding, I was 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: doing something that was wrong. I was scared to be caught. 3 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:12,039 Speaker 1: I was actually having this quote unquote famous nap on 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: the Sunday, and I think my husband had come into 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: the room. Here I am, you know, sexting, pretending that 6 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: I'm having a nap, and I'm thinking you're really like 7 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: working as right now, as if why are you interrupting? Right? 8 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: That is Olivia. She's describing a moment where her husband 9 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: entered her bedroom and unwittingly interrupted her having an orgasm 10 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: after she read sexy texts from another man on her phone. See. 11 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 1: A few years ago, Olivia reconnected with an old coworker 12 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: and they started texting. Then they started sexting. Olivia had 13 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: been unhappily married for more than two decades, but then 14 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: a sold co worker came along and his texts became 15 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: a virtual affair that completely changed her life. I felt 16 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: very naive. I felt as if, oh my god, this 17 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: is such a taboo, like this is crazy. And I 18 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: remember telling this to my girlfriends and they said, immediately 19 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: change his name but the alias, because you really don't 20 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: want your husband seeing that. I'm Joe Piazza, when you're 21 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,279 Speaker 1: listening to She Wants More, the podcast where real women 22 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 1: talk openly and honestly about the extra marital affairs that 23 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: have completely changed their lives. One thing that has really 24 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: struck me while interviewing women for this podcast is just 25 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: how much technology has changed the landscape of extra marital affairs. 26 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: The women I've talked to completely rely on technology to 27 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: meet men, to plan and execute their affairs, and to 28 00:01:55,480 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: keep them a secret. Take Olivia, she conducted an entire 29 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: affair strictly on her smartphone. It was completely based on 30 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: getting text messages and voice memos from her old coworker. 31 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: Like we said earlier, nothing physical ever actually happened. Technology 32 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: has changed absolutely everything about having an affair, from dating 33 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: websites for married people and Facebook and Craigslist to burner 34 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: phones and WhatsApp. Technologies made it easier than ever for 35 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: women to step out. For example, Michelle. Michelle was on 36 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: the podcast a few episodes ago when she hit her 37 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: breaking point with her husband, she signed up for Ashley Madison. 38 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:45,239 Speaker 1: And when Michelle signed up, within minutes, she started getting 39 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: all kinds of responses from all kinds of men. She 40 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: actually had to adjust her geography filter to make the 41 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: radius smaller. That's right, smaller, because there were just so 42 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:03,519 Speaker 1: many available married men looking to meet married women close 43 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: to her house. I asked Michelle what she thought it 44 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: must have been like to be a woman in the 45 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: pre internet days who wanted to have an affair, back 46 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: in the Stone Age at the nineties, in early two thousands. 47 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: Can you imagine being a woman pre internet who wants 48 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: to have an affair? Right? Did they just walk into 49 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: a bar? Right right? Lee, You're wedding me at home 50 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: and hope nobody found out? Like, I don't know, I 51 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: don't I mean, I mean, I think about that all 52 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: the time. I think maybe I need to talk to 53 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: more women who had affairs in the pre digital age 54 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: because it just seems so much easier now. Well, and 55 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: it seems easier to find somebody that's not in your 56 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: social circle because you could find somebody probably pre online 57 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: dating and stuff, but the chances are it's somebody that 58 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: you meet at work or something where there's likely to 59 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: be like overlap. You're right, yeah, yes, someone at church exactly. 60 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: But is it really that easy? I wanted to see 61 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: just how easy it was to find someone who wants 62 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: to have an affair online. So, along with my intrepid 63 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: producers Jab and Allie, we decided to sign up for 64 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: Ashley Madison. Have you create a profile? Okay, so relationship 65 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: status attached female, So use your name, You're like, no 66 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: one uses their real make up? Something. Time you put 67 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: in a greeting, Hey, sexy man, dear birth feels like 68 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 1: a lot of personal information. Something long term. I want 69 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 1: to say, cyber affair, erotic chat. Okay, okay, undecided, undecided, 70 00:04:55,760 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: I'm undecided. Wait, fuck off? Why don't you to give 71 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 1: your weight? Do you have to give your weight on 72 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: any other dating thing? No, definitely not. You need your 73 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 1: height also, height, body type? You all right? I'm giving 74 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 1: my email. I guess people create fake emails for this, 75 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: right probably that's so all right. It's telling me to 76 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: add a disguised photo, disguise your identity, and add some 77 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 1: privacy to your photos. More about you? Okay, I'm a 78 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: forty something forty some thing writer, just here to explore. 79 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: You're all signed up? I have to verify my email. Yeah, 80 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: there's so many guys on there. Wow, I mean that 81 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: took us how long that was? Five minutes? And look 82 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 1: there's like bazillion men here, there's a bazillion man's kind 83 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: of cute you think handsome stud forty six Philadelphia. Oh 84 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: my god, they know and I'm in Philadelphia. Are not 85 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:03,919 Speaker 1: even in Philadelphia. I don't think I gave them. I 86 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: didn't tell them anything. And that right there, that is 87 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: how easy it was for a woman to sign up 88 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: for a married person stating site that will deliver a 89 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: gazillion men for you to have an affair with within 90 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 1: a fifty mile radius of your house. We'll be back 91 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: after a short break. We're back. Technology has allowed individuals 92 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 1: to have affairs from the comfort of their own home. 93 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 1: You may be sitting next to your partner on the 94 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: couch and watching TV while also engaging an affair from 95 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: your smartphone. That's Jacklin Cravens Pickens. Jacqueline is a marriage 96 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: and family therapy professor at Texas Tech University and is 97 00:06:55,880 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: also a licensed marriage and family therapist. Her research is 98 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 1: on relationships, technology, and monogamy. I called Jacqueline because she's 99 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: pretty much the leading expert out there on the intersection 100 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: of tech and infidelity, and one of the things she 101 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: told me is that the evolution of technology enabling affairs 102 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: has been happening pre smartphone, and she took me back 103 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: about twenty years ago, back to the beginning of Facebook 104 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: and a virtual reality game called Farmville. One of my 105 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: first couples that I had worked with, it was a 106 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: heterosexual couple. The female partner had been having a relationship 107 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: with a game player on farm Ville that they met 108 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: through the game, and the husband had said, you know, 109 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: I can't believe you love this person. You don't know 110 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: who they actually are. You've never met them in person. 111 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: So you think you want to leave me for this 112 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: person on Farmville. I'll kind of call your bluff and 113 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: I'll pay for you to go meet this person in 114 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: real life, offline all Farmville, and this will settle everything, 115 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: and you're gonna come back and want to be with me. 116 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: So when her husband found out and he said, how 117 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: about you going to meet the guy in person and 118 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: you'll realize just how crazy you're being. As you might imagine, 119 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: this did not go as the husband expected. Meeting all 120 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,239 Speaker 1: fline ended up being even better than their online relationship, 121 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: and so when the wife came back to town and 122 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: they were back in session, she said, yeah, no, I'm 123 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: leaving you. I want to be with this person. She 124 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: left her husband for the Farmville guy, a guy she 125 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: never would have met in real life, but because of 126 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: a game where you buy and sell virtual livestock, an 127 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: affair was made possible along with the dissolution of an 128 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: unhappy marriage. Now, like I said, this was almost twenty 129 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 1: years ago, and it's about the same time that Craigslist 130 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: Casual Encounters became popular for people looking for casual sex 131 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: or extra marital affairs. In fact, remember Monique from episode three, 132 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: Craigslist Casual Encounters is how she started her first affair. 133 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: You could go on Craigslist and you could find anything 134 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: from adult nursing relationship to garden furniture. I had a 135 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: girlfriend who had just separated, and one day she was 136 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: over and we'd been kind of drinking and looking at Craigslist, 137 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: and I saw this ad that I thought was just brilliant, 138 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: and I replied. We kept corresponding, and then at some 139 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,959 Speaker 1: point we decided to have a beer together and it 140 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: had it. And now with smartphones, internet capable devices and 141 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,439 Speaker 1: all the social media affairs have reached a whole new 142 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 1: level of accessibility. The Internet has really arrived at a 143 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: place where it greatly approximates offline life. We used to 144 00:09:56,160 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: not have things like video capabilities or virtual reality. That's 145 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: Jacklin Craven's pickens Again, it's created very unique ways in 146 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: which we can engage in online infidelity. You could be 147 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: using teledildonics or USB capable devices that are sex toys 148 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: that somebody else can be operating on the other side 149 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: of the world, and we can be having sexual affairs 150 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: through technology. What is a teledildonic? Did I say that right? 151 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: Is that a teledildo? Yes? Absolutely so other words use cyberdildonics, 152 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: but it's basically a fancy word for a USB capable 153 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: sex toy. Then all sorts of different types exist. So 154 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 1: if you're you're curious, I want to do a quick 155 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 1: Google search from dildos to mouths that are USB operated 156 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: by a partner in another location. So we think about 157 00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: online affairs being direct messages, secret chats that are happening, 158 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: and I think with virtual reality and things like teledyldonics, 159 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: you know, our imagination is probably pretty endless now about 160 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: how people are having online affairs. How you just I 161 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: really like it when I learn new words and what 162 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:21,359 Speaker 1: are some ways specifically that you've seen people using technology 163 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: to cheat and We've heard about women using Ashley Madison 164 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: and then What's App, separate emails, burner phones, all of 165 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: these things to schedule and track their affairs, similar to 166 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: introducing you to the concept of teledyldonics. I think the 167 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: options are so far reaching. I've seen people engaging in 168 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: affairs through Reddit. They were in special communities on Reddit 169 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 1: and built a connection and meeting people through social media apps. 170 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: The Calculator app was one I saw for a while, 171 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: which was an app that allows you to have a secret, 172 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: hidden compartment in your phone where you could have dating 173 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: apps and text messages. That looks like the Calculator app 174 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: until you click it and it asks you to put 175 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: in a password and then write It's like opening the 176 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: subfolder of a phone where hidden information exists. No, it 177 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: looks like the Calculator and so no one's ever going 178 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: to open it. But it's actually got all of your 179 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: secret dating and text messaging stuff in it. Yes, Calculator apps, 180 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 1: Reddit affairs, virtual dildos. These lines are blurry as f 181 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,079 Speaker 1: and it is hard to figure out where fantasies end 182 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: and reality begins. But we're about to see just how 183 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: real a virtual affair can get to be. Walking in 184 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: the street and to be able to reach it to orgasm. 185 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, this is and this is when you 186 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: start realizing the power of the mind. You know, an 187 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: affair doesn't necessarily have to be that physical sexual relationship, 188 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: or that orgasm doesn't necessarily have to be the actual penetration. 189 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:13,079 Speaker 1: That's Olivia again, the woman who orgasmed while her husband 190 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: was just in the other room, while she was receiving 191 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 1: a sexy text from another man. And after the break, 192 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: we are going to hear every detail of her virtual affair. 193 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 1: We're back. The text messages continue, but they kick it 194 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: up a notch a little bit. It's as if we're 195 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: raising the volume. I felt very naive. I felt as if, 196 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: oh my god, this is such a taboo, like this 197 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: is crazy. And I remember telling this to my girlfriends 198 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: and they said it changed his name, but the alias, 199 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: because you really don't want your husband seeing that. That's 200 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: Olivia telling me about how her virtual sexting affair got started. 201 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: After reconnecting with her for our coworker, that coworker started 202 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: playfully sending some texts, but they quickly got pretty racy. 203 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: Her friends told her to change his name on her 204 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 1: phone in case her husband got suspicious. But let's back 205 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: up for a moment and find out how this all 206 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: started for Olivia. When we first started talking, Olivia told 207 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: me that she was the kind of person who would 208 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: never have an affair, who would never cross a line. 209 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: And so I asked her how she ended up getting 210 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: into this. She told me it was because at that moment, 211 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: the moment when she started talking to her former co worker, 212 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: she'd reached a point in her marriage where she really 213 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: felt like she'd lost herself, and in that moment, she 214 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: was much more receptive to sexting advances. You know, with 215 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: my husband, if he would put his foot in his mouth, 216 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: or if he would just start drinking, he would say 217 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: things without measure. He would be disrespectful to women who 218 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: was like, I'm the man of the house, I'm the 219 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: ruler control, I pay, so I decide what it's done. 220 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: It just became worse and worse and worse. I had 221 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: to change who I was to satisfy him. The way 222 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: the hair was done. The hair had to be blonde, 223 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: it had to be straight. And he would say this 224 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: to people. He would say this to my kids. You know, 225 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: your mother would be perfect if she would just have this, 226 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: and why won't she do this for me? And I 227 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: think I was just so desperate to feel alive. I 228 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: was willing to take that risk. I felt giddy, I 229 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: felt beautiful. I allowed myself to be taken to this fantasy, 230 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: and yes I did fantasize about it. I did take 231 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: it to a whole other level. I think the fantasy 232 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: also the taboo, right, there was something so mysterious about it. 233 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: Do you think it was hotter because it wasn't physical. Yes, 234 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: I felt as if I had this secret and it 235 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: was this wonderful secret or piece of information that was 236 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: filling my cup in every possible way, Like to be 237 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: walking in the street and to be able to reach 238 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: an orgasm. I'm like, wow, I've got to ask what 239 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: was in the text message that made you have the 240 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: orgasm walking down the street. I think it was just 241 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: in the way he was saying how he was going 242 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: to touch me in just such an incredible way, in 243 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: a very sensual, very erotic way. The touch, the caress, 244 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: the oil, what he was going to do to me, 245 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: how he was going to do it to me. It 246 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: was the foreplay, It was the excitement, it was the stimulation. 247 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: You know, how do you like this? How do you 248 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: want this? How many fingers? Positions? Things like this? Literally 249 00:16:55,160 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: lost for like twenty minutes, so like me to where 250 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: I was going, and I was like, what the hell 251 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: is happening to me? And you know, it's kind of 252 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 1: funny thinking here I'm walking in the street and having 253 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: this crazy ass orgasm and all these people passing me 254 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 1: and they have no fucking clue what's going on. And 255 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: it was just incredible. And I also realized that I 256 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: am very sexual, that I enjoy the connection, I enjoy 257 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: the intimacy, and I think in that week he brought 258 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: that back. I had actually asked him to get me 259 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 1: one of those remote control vibrators which a friend of 260 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 1: mine had told me about, that you can control it 261 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: through Bluetooth, and you know, I was willing to experiment 262 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: certain things with him. It was as if Pandora's box 263 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:59,479 Speaker 1: had opened up with him. I asked Olivia if there 264 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: were a lot of other times that she messaged with 265 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: her former co worker while her husband was right there, 266 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: and if she did, if there was a thrill or 267 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: a power she got from the secrecy, Yes, there'll be 268 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: a gun for dinner, and that we were going to 269 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: the theater and he started texting me, and my husband 270 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 1: is sitting right in front of me, my daughter's right 271 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 1: beside me, and the phone is on my left side. 272 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: And I remember my daughter wanting to get my phone. 273 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: I'm like, no, no, no no, you can't use your dad. 274 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: And she just turned to me and she's like what, 275 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 1: And I'm like, god, I was too scared that the 276 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:45,239 Speaker 1: message would come up. I went to the washroom and 277 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: I said, you know, I can't I'm at the theater. 278 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 1: And he didn't get it. You just didn't get it. 279 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: Then we were at the theater or waiting to go in. 280 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 1: During the play, you know how, the light kind of 281 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: flashes on, and of course my husband is beside and 282 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: he's like, you know, who's texting you? I'm like, no, 283 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 1: no much. I think it's just you know, work related. Luckily, 284 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 1: what I was doing for work, it was pretty much 285 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 1: twenty four seven. But yeah, it was exciting. It was 286 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:20,880 Speaker 1: very exciting. Did you ever think about it as an affair? No, don't. 287 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 1: I don't even know the title. There's so many different 288 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: titles that one could put on it, or there's so 289 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: many different meanings. I guess if you want to put 290 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: to the word affair, is an affair being disloyal to 291 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 1: your partner, Because if that's the case, then emotionally, I 292 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 1: guess I did have an affair. Do I feel guilty 293 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: about it? No? Not once did I feel guilty. This 294 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: was the part that was so interesting to me. Olivia 295 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 1: never considered this to be an affair because nothing physical happened. Sure, 296 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,439 Speaker 1: she was having the best orgasm of her life. She 297 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: was feeling free and open and fucking amazing. She was 298 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 1: talking to this man about the most intimate parts of 299 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 1: her body, but she didn't consider it cheating. And that 300 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 1: right there, that is another way that technology has changed 301 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: how women can cheat on their husbands. You can have 302 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 1: an affair that's maybe not even an affair. I think 303 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 1: that there are some really great theories that help us 304 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: better understand how this happens. Even with people that, like 305 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: I said, don't get online or reach out to people 306 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: or meet people with the specific purpose of having an affair. 307 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: That's Jaqueline Cravens Pickens Again. They get on for gameplay, 308 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: or they reach out to a high school friend or 309 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 1: a college ex partner just to check in, and very 310 00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 1: quickly it moves into very vulnerable personal information where we're 311 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: building these really quick, emotionally intense connections and all of 312 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: a sudden we've crossed a boundary. And one of the 313 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: things we know about computer mediated communication is people talk 314 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 1: about how quickly they feel more comfortable being able to 315 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: disclose personal information. So I didn't realize I was going 316 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: to open up and share all of these intimate details 317 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: in the way in which I did, and so much 318 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: more rapidly. Online people feel emotionally close and connected than 319 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: what happens and offline interactions. And that's why I use 320 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 1: that term that slippery slope of like, well, I didn't 321 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 1: think that this was what was going to happen from 322 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 1: this interaction, and here we are. I feel so connected, 323 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: this person really understands me. I feel so close, so connected, 324 00:21:52,920 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 1: so quickly. Right, it really is a slippery slip. And 325 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 1: we will be going write down that Slabrislow next week 326 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: when we dive into an affair that took a very 327 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 1: unexpected twist. Over the past seven episodes, we've learned that 328 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: infidelity and non monogamy for women can be a lot 329 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 1: of things, empowering, freeing, even self esteem building, but they're 330 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: also complicated, and if I'm being honest with you, I'm 331 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: still trying to figure out what does it all mean 332 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: for female sexuality and agency and for breaking down the 333 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: stigmas that have allowed men to cheat and kept women 334 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 1: faithful for so long. That is all Next week this 335 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 1: has been She Wants More. I'm your host, Joe Piazza. 336 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: She Wants More was inspired by the book A Passion 337 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: for More by Susan Shapiro Bearish. It was adapted for 338 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:03,439 Speaker 1: audio by executive produces Merrill Poster, Kara Pfeiffer, and Susan 339 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: Shapiro Parish. She Wants More is hosted and reported by 340 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:11,199 Speaker 1: me Joe Piazza. Jennifer Bassett is our lead producer and 341 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: story editor. Our sound design is by Jessica Crunchich. Our 342 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 1: theme was composed by Anna Stumff and Hamilton Lighthouser. Our 343 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: executive producers for iHeart are Ali Perry and Nikki Etour. 344 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: She Wants More as a production of iHeart Podcasts. For 345 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 346 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.