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Speaker 1: Welcome to Ruthie's Table four, a production of iHeartRadio and

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Speaker 1: Adami's Studios.

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Speaker 2: A few months ago, my good friend Lorne Michaels texted

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Speaker 2: me to say that Tina Fay was coming to London

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Speaker 2: to star in the movie. He knew I would love

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Speaker 2: her from the first meeting. It became a friendship formed

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Speaker 2: with food. Tina arrived at our house with a beautiful

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Speaker 2: box of chocolates for me, as brought up to do

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Speaker 2: by her mother, and I brought home a River Cafe

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Speaker 2: Lemon tart for her. The first dinner, I made slow

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Speaker 2: cooked tomato pasta. She ate two portions and then we

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Speaker 2: played cards. Did I think baby?

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Speaker 3: It was three?

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Speaker 2: I'm actually, you know, being polite. Of course, millions of

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Speaker 2: us have shared food with Tina Fay in thirty Rock,

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Speaker 2: which he wrote and starred in, and even her name

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Speaker 2: Liz Lemon was food related. Sandwiches never to be shared,

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Speaker 2: hard cheese eaten at midnight, advice given to John McEnroe.

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Speaker 2: I'm where to buy the best cupcakes in New York City.

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Speaker 2: Her obsession with hot dogs resulting in a food warning

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Speaker 2: from the street vendor, a snl, A brandy husband devouring

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Speaker 2: a cake. While discussing riots and weekend update and who

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Speaker 2: could forget the cafeteria scene in the movie, She wrote, mean, girls, Well,

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Speaker 2: you've just been in the River Cafe kitchen. What was

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Speaker 2: it like?

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Speaker 4: Oh my god, it's the most beautiful dance happening in

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Speaker 4: the kitchen, everyone working so perfectly.

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Speaker 5: I'm Sean Winnowen and I'm the executed chef at the

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Speaker 5: River Cafe. Today we're making tomato tellier renni with Tina Fee.

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Speaker 5: So we're going to make a tegler Reni with the

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Speaker 5: slow cup tomato, sauce and butter. Which is probably one

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Speaker 5: of Route's secrets is adding the butter to it.

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Speaker 2: Aha.

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Speaker 6: Now we know.

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Speaker 4: We love about a half a cup of butter, you know,

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Speaker 4: one person portion. Oh it's not it, yeah, only because

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Speaker 4: we can't court right into my mouth here.

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Speaker 2: At the station.

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Speaker 4: It's gorgeously Michael marry a non human entity.

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Speaker 2: I would marry this.

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Speaker 4: Plus thank you for joining for that.

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Speaker 2: Thank you you're here doing.

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Speaker 4: I'm acting in a movie called A Haunting in Venice,

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Speaker 4: directed by Sir Keneth Branna. It's when Agatha Christie inspired

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Speaker 4: murder mystery and it's been very fun to be here

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Speaker 4: shooting in an ensemble with some really great actors Michelle

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Speaker 4: Yo and Jamie Dornan and Kamilka Tan and Kelly Riley.

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Speaker 4: And it's just been fun to be basically on the

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Speaker 4: Haunted Mansion ride at Disney World. I've just been inside

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Speaker 4: that ride for three months because we're on this set

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Speaker 4: that's like a spooky old Venetian palazzo in the dark

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Speaker 4: all day, every day for three months.

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Speaker 2: Is the culture of filming in Britain in Europe in

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Speaker 2: London very different? And back to food, fo is it

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Speaker 2: a different food culture that it is a little different.

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Speaker 4: Our lunch is our hours are very civilized here. We

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Speaker 4: stopped every day at six on the dot, which at home,

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Speaker 4: depending on who you're working for, you could drift into

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Speaker 4: eight o'clock, ten o'clock, one am, you could work really late.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we s done.

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Speaker 4: Our lunch is very short. It's only half an hour,

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Speaker 4: which was sort of we weren't used to it at first,

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Speaker 4: but none I grew to really like it because then

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Speaker 4: you don't kind of lose momentum. Usually you come back

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Speaker 4: from Americans that you come back from lunch a little

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Speaker 4: sleepy and you have to get a coffee. But this

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Speaker 4: was a half hour lunch and then back in and

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Speaker 4: just everyone offering you tea, constantly drinking so much tea,

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Speaker 4: which is nice tea and digestives.

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Speaker 2: Is there a food scene in it?

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Speaker 4: I didn't get to do any on camera eating.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's shame.

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Speaker 4: There was a nice thing on set, which was again

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Speaker 4: because food is the only way to communicate with people.

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Speaker 4: Because the cast we're all from different places, we started

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Speaker 4: kind of sharing our favorite unique snacks from our countries,

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Speaker 4: which started because somehow it was Halloween when I first

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Speaker 4: got here, and I was talking about candy corn, and

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Speaker 4: of course no one here knew what that was, and

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Speaker 4: so I had a friend bring me a couple bags

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Speaker 4: of candy corn to share, and we started taking a poll.

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Speaker 4: We'd give it to the Brits and film their reactions,

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Speaker 4: and people thought it was disgusting, which I respect.

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Speaker 2: I love it.

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Speaker 4: But it was a great conversation starter when we were

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Speaker 4: all new to each other and we were like kind

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Speaker 4: of an icebreaker. And then other people started bringing in

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Speaker 4: a woman waking A Yoshihara is our head of our

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Speaker 4: hair and makeup department, and she's Japanese, and so she

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Speaker 4: started bringing in Japanese candy and we were trying like

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Speaker 4: and some were great, some were disgusting. So she had

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Speaker 4: these plump candy that looked like a children's vitamin. I

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Speaker 4: apologize to anyone loves these, but she was so amused

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Speaker 4: to film each of us trying them, and it's so

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Speaker 4: funny that something could be a complete comfort treat to her.

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Speaker 4: That to my palette was horrible. And same with the

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Speaker 4: candy corn. And then some of the Brits started bringing

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Speaker 4: it was getting closer to Christmas, and Kelly Ryland brought in.

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Speaker 4: She said, this is the cheap chocolate that we grew

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Speaker 4: up with quality street mixing chocolates. And then Emma Laird

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Speaker 4: was bringing different kinds of crisps. And then we kept

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Speaker 4: asking Camille Catan, who's French, like you know what's unique?

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Speaker 4: What kind of weird candy can you bring? And she

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Speaker 4: was like, I don't know what I can bring. And

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Speaker 4: then she brought by the way, why am imitating her?

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Speaker 4: Like she's Salma hiak like that, and then she Camille

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Speaker 4: showed up with gorgeous cheese from France for the whole crew.

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Speaker 4: She's like, we don't eat garbage. Yeah, so she brought

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Speaker 4: this like gorgeous, gorgeous cheese. The one thing I used

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Speaker 4: to love with it's Saturday Night Live. Saturday was the

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Speaker 4: most fun day because it's the day where it's finally

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Speaker 4: all happening and you can spend a lot of time

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Speaker 4: being worried, and then Saturday you just have to kind

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Speaker 4: of go down the slide, you know. And we would

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Speaker 4: have these crew lunch dinner. I guess we'd sort of

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Speaker 4: rehearse from one pm till about five thirty pm, and

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Speaker 4: you'd go down to the NBC cafeteria and have lunch

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Speaker 4: with everybody or dinner with everybody. That's one of my

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Speaker 4: favorite memories of working there.

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Speaker 2: Actually, when you're producing a film or a theater, do

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Speaker 2: you think about what people are going to eat?

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Speaker 4: I mean I always if I'm producing something, I want

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Speaker 4: the food to be good and to be ample. And oftentimes,

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Speaker 4: if you want to reward the cast and crew, you

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Speaker 4: send more food. We send like food trucks, like pizza truck,

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Speaker 4: coffee truck.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the food is.

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Speaker 4: In my I believe food is the only reward in life.

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Speaker 2: In life good I like that, sure money, sure food.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: We still have a wonderful lady who's no longer with

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Speaker 4: us from an Angel who was in charge of what's

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Speaker 4: called craft services on thirty Rock, which is you have

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Speaker 4: your meals, you get in like there's a truck, there's

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Speaker 4: catering does breakfast and lunch, but all the food that

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Speaker 4: you just eat in between that all day there would

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Speaker 4: just be a table in the hallway with food. And

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Speaker 4: Angel had so much passion about her job. And she

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Speaker 4: was Italian American from Staten Island and she would show

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Speaker 4: up with these things. Would be like, Angel, what is this?

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Speaker 4: She would just bring them these beautiful like whatever, like

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Speaker 4: balls of matsarel, these crazy breads, what was that? Like

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Speaker 4: rolled up art of choke bread and all this stuff.

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Speaker 4: It was so much more than what you would normally get,

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Speaker 4: like a bowl of apples and some candy. And this

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Speaker 4: episode of thirty Rock, there's a whole storyline about the

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Speaker 4: perfect sandwich. And there's this thing where I'm chasing a

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Speaker 4: guy that I love through the airport but they want

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Speaker 4: you don't go through, they want me to take my

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Speaker 4: sandwich and that take no way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but first you have to describe that scene. I'm

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Speaker 2: not going to do it because I think it is

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Speaker 2: one of the great scenes and food.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, I will say I as an actor, perhaps

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Speaker 4: my only specialty is on camera eating. I commit to it.

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Speaker 4: I'm looking great at it. And so this is a

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Speaker 4: scene where Liz lemon Is. She's chasing her love interest,

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Speaker 4: who is played by Jason Sadaikis, who you all may

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Speaker 4: know is Ted Lasso, and I'm chasing through the airport

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Speaker 4: and I've been also the other part of the stories.

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Speaker 4: I've been trying to get the team stirs the union

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Speaker 4: drivers to tell me where they get these great sandwiches.

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Speaker 4: So I've got my special sandwich. And the security guard

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Speaker 4: at the airport says, you have to leave the sandwich behind,

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Speaker 4: you can't take it through, and I say no, women

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Speaker 4: can have it all. And I'm going to eat this

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Speaker 4: sandwich in one bite before I go through security. And

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Speaker 4: I'm still going to catch the man. And so it

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Speaker 4: came down to Angel, this woman who did our craft service.

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Speaker 4: I said, Angel, this is a special assignment for you.

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Speaker 4: I need you to make me the perfect sandwich. Normally

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Speaker 4: it would have been the props department, but I said, Angel,

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Speaker 4: You're going to make the sandwich and and I need

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Speaker 4: it to be I need to be able to eat

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Speaker 4: it in one bite. So she went to these bakers

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Speaker 4: that she knew in Staten Island and had them custom

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Speaker 4: make I don't know what it was, the softest, still

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Speaker 4: a chest bread. And when I tell you that sandwich,

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Speaker 4: I can remember to this day. That sandwich was so delicious.

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Speaker 4: It was an Italian sub so it had like some

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Speaker 4: salami and some what I would call gabba ghoul, some cheese.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't a fake sandwich. And I ate it in

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Speaker 4: one take, and I remembered saying they were like, we

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Speaker 4: got it, and I was like, did we? Because if

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Speaker 4: you need me to do it again, I am willing

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Speaker 4: because it was so good.

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Speaker 3: But it goes to angel because the bread.

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Speaker 4: Like melted in my mouth.

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Speaker 6: One of the most delicious things was very simple. We

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Speaker 6: lived at five stories up in this tenement and my

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Speaker 6: mother would throw in it, throw down in a brown

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Speaker 6: paper bag, a kaiser roll smeared with a lot of

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Speaker 6: butter and almost a whole tomato sliced and salted that

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Speaker 6: and it was the most delicious thing. You'd catch it,

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Speaker 6: and I'd always catch it. But one time I missed

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Speaker 6: it and splat.

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Speaker 2: Mel Brooks makes the world laugh. Watch the producers blazing

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Speaker 2: saddles Young Frankenstein. Listen to the two thousand year old man,

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Speaker 2: or read his autobiography All About Me, and you are

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Speaker 2: guaranteed to find yourself laughing out loud. But for me,

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Speaker 2: having known Mel for twenty five years, funny is not

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Speaker 2: the first word I would use to describe this amazing man.

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Speaker 6: Hungry, hungry. Before I forget, I would like to do

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Speaker 6: my imitation of a cat. That is that is a

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Speaker 6: perfect sound. It's hard to do, hard to do. I

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Speaker 6: do it in Young Frankenstein. I think it's it's a

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Speaker 6: dart throwing contest and one of the dots hits a cat.

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Speaker 7: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Let's begin at the beginning, earliest food memories. What do

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Speaker 2: you remember from you know, your early days. Did your

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Speaker 2: mother cook?

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Speaker 7: Yeah?

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Speaker 6: My mother, okay, it was it was a standard Williamsburg,

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Speaker 6: Brooklyn Jewish tenement food. So breakfast in the winter was

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Speaker 6: always a hot cereal, cream of wheat or Rallston which

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Speaker 6: was a kind of barige brown barridge, and then in

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Speaker 6: the summer corn flakes, rice krispies or wheaties.

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Speaker 2: What year would that have been? How old would you

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Speaker 2: I would.

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Speaker 6: That would be thirty five, I'd be around nine That's

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Speaker 6: when I went my uncle Joe, shortest jew on earth,

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Speaker 6: how short he was a character about four to four.

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Speaker 6: And when when a taxi, a big checker taxi cab

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Speaker 6: rolled down the streets of Brooklyn, and there was no driver,

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Speaker 6: that was Joe. There was no driver. It was so

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Speaker 6: short it get just about peer over the you know. Anyway,

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Speaker 6: Joe took me because his friend Al was the doorman

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Speaker 6: of the Alvin Theater on fifty second Street, and running

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Speaker 6: at that same theater was Cold Porters Anything Goes. I

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Speaker 6: had never seen a Broadway show. I was nine years old,

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Speaker 6: and Uncle Joe took me to see Anything Goes. I

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Speaker 6: was stunned. I was. I couldn't believe it, even though

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Speaker 6: we were in the second balcony, was far away from

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Speaker 6: the stage as you can get ethel Merman was too loud,

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Speaker 6: No MIC's.

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Speaker 2: She was just anything Goes? Did she say the mother?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the woman. It's on a ship, isn't it.

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Speaker 6: And it's on the ship very good? Yeah. And Victim

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Speaker 6: Moore was was the gangster the gang Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: It was so good. At the end, I nearly clapped

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Speaker 6: my hands over. I just couldn't stop clapping and screaming

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Speaker 6: and shouting. And then I got back an Uncle Joe's camp.

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Speaker 6: I said to him, Uncle John, I'm not going in

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Speaker 6: the garment center. Everybody at three sixty five South third Street,

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Speaker 6: between on Hooper and Use, three sixty five South third Street,

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Speaker 6: everybody in that building worked in the garment center. They

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Speaker 6: were shipping clerks, they were cutters, they were designers, they

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Speaker 6: were salesmen. They everybody I think on the street, these

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Speaker 6: sixty one, three sixty three through sixty five, these tenements,

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Speaker 6: everybody in the garment set. And I screamed at my

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Speaker 6: uncle Joe, Uncle Joe, I'm not I'm not going into

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Speaker 6: the garments that I'm not. I'm gonna go into the

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Speaker 6: show business. I loved it. I loved it, you know.

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Speaker 6: And it changed, but it did, and I did. And

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Speaker 6: because he take.

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Speaker 2: You to food, but do you take you out to eat?

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Speaker 2: I always went to the theater as a kid. And

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Speaker 2: then there was the meal afterwards, lunch, before it was

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Speaker 2: a day out.

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Speaker 6: We had some favorites that Uncle Joe would take us to,

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Speaker 6: where one was called Gallagher Steakhouse. They had like half

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Speaker 6: a cow in the window. I always had these half

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Speaker 6: cows in the window you know, hanging gallaghers and the

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Speaker 6: and the steak was incredible. And sometimes you go to

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Speaker 6: Jack Dempsey's restaurant.

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Speaker 2: And what was that?

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Speaker 6: And it was great, but you know it was it

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Speaker 6: was all meat, it was There never any fish in

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Speaker 6: a restaurant. Yeah, And I never liked fish. I don't

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Speaker 6: think I ever liked fish until I was seventy or

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Speaker 6: eighty and I went to the River Cafe.

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Speaker 2: And so really you never ate fish.

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Speaker 6: I hardly ever ate fish as But.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting to me that you you describe a kind

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Speaker 2: of modest home life in terms of going your food,

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Speaker 2: but but you went out to restaurants.

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Speaker 6: So what's while a lot of Jewish restaurants were called

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Speaker 6: dairy restaurants and they serve stuff like blinches with sour

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Speaker 6: cream and old dairy. You never mixed meat and dairy

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Speaker 6: with something some religious nonsense.

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Speaker 2: Did your grandmother cook for you?

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Speaker 6: My grandmother cook?

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Speaker 2: What did she cooks? Which grandmother? Your mother's mother's mother.

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Speaker 2: I never knew, you never knew your father's.

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Speaker 6: No, No, my father's grandmother. I did know. She did

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Speaker 6: say to her meals best olden meals in Bensonhurst where

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Speaker 6: they lived in a big one family.

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Speaker 2: Did they come with their first generation?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, no, they were. They were European.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so do you think your grandparents brought their

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Speaker 2: food with them, the food culture.

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Speaker 6: They cooked the same stuff. Mostly it was chicken, chicken

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Speaker 6: and chicken soup.

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Speaker 2: And uh, briscuit.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, they made brisket. Absolutely, they made brisket and brown potatoes.

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Speaker 2: Do you know my grandparents came, They were They came

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Speaker 2: from Hungary and Russia. And my father remembers my grandmother

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Speaker 2: having in the lower East side a carp swimming in

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Speaker 2: the bathtub that they would make it filter fish out of.

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Speaker 2: So can you imagine having aok They would bring it

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Speaker 2: a live fish.

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Speaker 6: Live fish. We would get a live fish. My brother

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Speaker 6: Bernie and I were usually one week. We loved and

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Speaker 6: we called them already, and we fed them bread crumbs

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Speaker 6: and we chased them around the bathtub. And then it

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Speaker 6: was unspeakable. I can't even describe it. Irving, my older

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Speaker 6: oldest brothers Irving and Lenny, held us back. We were screaming,

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Speaker 6: don't kill him, and my mother would say we gotta eat,

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Speaker 6: we gotta eat supper, and she'd kill audience, serve him.

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Speaker 6: It was and we would cry and we ate him.

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Speaker 2: And then would you get another carp and kill that.

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Speaker 2: We got another carp It's so interesting that they had

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Speaker 2: live fish swimming in the back in Yeah.

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Speaker 6: They it's amazing that you had to say.

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Speaker 2: My brother Michael, who you know, just wrote I have

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Speaker 2: found that something my father had written about his memories

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Speaker 2: of food and just living in the Lower east Side.

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Speaker 2: But you weren't in the Lower east Side.

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Speaker 6: The Lower east Side, an extension of the Lower east

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Speaker 6: Side was Williamsburg.

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Speaker 2: That was probably one step up, was it.

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Speaker 6: Well, it was one step up if you put it

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Speaker 6: next to a section brook called Bronzeville, East New York,

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Speaker 6: and that was really where they coldstoves they don't even

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Speaker 6: have guess.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And we.

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Speaker 6: Had electricity and way, I guess. So we were one

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Speaker 6: step above Brownsbeil equal to the Lower east Side.

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Speaker 2: In September, the River Cafe will be thirty six years old,

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Speaker 2: and one of the great joys of having a restaurant

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Speaker 2: for so long is watching the second generation and now

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Speaker 2: even a third generation of our early customers grow up.

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Speaker 2: Adwa's parents, Charles Boa and Camilla Lowther, have been part

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Speaker 2: of the River Cafe family since we opened, and ad

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Speaker 2: was gone from being a young child ordering pasta, butter

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Speaker 2: and cheese and then playing in the garden space outside

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Speaker 2: with her friends to a formidable woman focused on the

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Speaker 2: political and social issues relevant today. After her own struggles

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Speaker 2: with mental health and to support young women's wellbeing, she

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Speaker 2: founded the organized Girls Talk, providing a safe space for

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Speaker 2: girls to access resources, share experiences, create community, and feel

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Speaker 2: less alone. A place to escape the chaos of.

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Speaker 3: The every day.

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Speaker 6: I think a.

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Speaker 3: Beautiful phrase today.

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Speaker 2: Ed was just come from the kitchen grilling scallops and

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Speaker 2: frying zucchini. It's both moving and exciting for me to

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Speaker 2: have Edward here.

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Speaker 3: Oh that was so nice.

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Speaker 2: Tell me about going to Vogue with Edward, because we did.

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Speaker 2: When Edward Nfl became the editor, we did the party here.

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Speaker 2: Remember that we had a party for him. I was

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Speaker 2: a great party. You were the cover for his first year.

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Speaker 7: That was mad, that Vogue party. I remember that like

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Speaker 7: it was yesterday. I remember I was driving here and I,

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Speaker 7: you know, Edward, and I still laugh about it now.

359
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Speaker 7: It's like it wasn't naivety. I think it was just this.

360
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Speaker 7: We were just doing something that felt very special to

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Speaker 7: both of us. It was like this we were embarking

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Speaker 7: on this new journey, and it wasn't necessarily that we were.

363
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Speaker 7: We were completely naive to how the world was going

364
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Speaker 7: to embrace it. You know, not only just people in fashion,

365
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Speaker 7: but worldwide. You know, it really went and viral, do

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Speaker 7: you know what I mean?

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Speaker 3: I think?

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Speaker 7: And so as we kind of pulled up, I pulled up.

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Speaker 7: I can't remember who I was in the car with.

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Speaker 7: Maybe it was like my mom and dad and system.

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Speaker 7: We pulled up the Shepherd's Bush roundabout and it was

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Speaker 7: projected on Shepherd's Bush round about.

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Speaker 3: What the hell is going on?

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Speaker 7: And I looked on my phone and it was just

375
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Speaker 7: like going mad and I actually like broke out into hives.

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Speaker 7: I was like, oh my god, this is so much.

377
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Speaker 7: I don't even know how to deal with this situation.

378
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,399
Speaker 7: I pulled up the River Cafe and Edwin and I

379
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Speaker 7: just giggled.

380
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Speaker 3: We could not stop laughing.

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Speaker 7: I think we were both so overwhelmed by what had

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Speaker 7: happened that we kind of just like could not stop laughing.

383
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Speaker 3: It was mad. It still feels really.

384
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Speaker 2: We all had Ravioli. We had this long discussion before

385
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Speaker 2: whether all the Vogue people, the models and the actresses

386
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Speaker 2: and the young beauties of today would actually have gluten carbs, cheese, butter,

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Speaker 2: and whether we would serve it. And we did, and

388
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Speaker 2: BO was actually really cool because we said, do you

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Speaker 2: want to find out what people want? They get and

390
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Speaker 2: now we're done with that. We're done with you know,

391
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Speaker 2: if you have a food preference, We're just going to

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Speaker 2: do the menu and what they eat. And everybody had

393
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Speaker 2: ravili and everybody, a lot of people had seconds of

394
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Speaker 2: REVIALI And yet the whole issue at the of being

395
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Speaker 2: a model about your body, talk about being a woman

396
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Speaker 2: in a profession that requires you to be a certain

397
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Speaker 2: shape size.

398
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Speaker 7: I think I don't remember being worried. I think there

399
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,119
Speaker 7: were moments when I was at school where I was

400
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,600
Speaker 7: kind of worried about what I looked like. Sometimes I

401
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:57,600
Speaker 7: didn't I wasn't at a girls' school, but you know,

402
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:02,360
Speaker 7: I lived in a house of women. So sometimes when

403
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,040
Speaker 7: someone would get a bit like weird with food or

404
00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 7: they'd have you know, issues, it kind of sometimes bleeds

405
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,480
Speaker 7: into everyone else within the community, do you know what

406
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:12,720
Speaker 7: I mean?

407
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:14,200
Speaker 3: We see that all the time.

408
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Speaker 7: And I think when I started modeling, I don't again

409
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,720
Speaker 7: remember feeling that pressured about it. I think I just

410
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:27,680
Speaker 7: felt like incredibly painful in my own body in general,

411
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Speaker 7: So it wasn't necessarily like kind of weight related. I

412
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,639
Speaker 7: think there's always been like parts of my body that

413
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:36,359
Speaker 7: I haven't like loved, you know what I mean, And

414
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,720
Speaker 7: I've had to grow to love the.

415
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Speaker 2: Are you the kind of person that can eat but

416
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Speaker 2: not gain weight.

417
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Speaker 3: Yeah, because I've always done lots and lots of sports.

418
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,880
Speaker 2: But were other models that you were with? What did

419
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:49,680
Speaker 2: you feel that to be a model you had to

420
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Speaker 2: be a Yeah.

421
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Speaker 7: I got weird with food for a period of time

422
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Speaker 7: where actually when I got sober, and they call it

423
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Speaker 7: that transference, you know, I think I was just trying

424
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Speaker 7: to control something else.

425
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Speaker 3: In my life.

426
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Speaker 7: So I got a bit weird food when I was

427
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 7: about twenty two. I think it was just control, to

428
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:11,359
Speaker 7: be quite honest, And and I think, wait for me,

429
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,719
Speaker 7: you know, if I'm myselfle with anxiety, you know, and

430
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 7: so when I'm anxious, it just falls off. Yeah, I'm

431
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 7: not the type of person sometimes I am eating, but

432
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,360
Speaker 7: it literally just falls off all the time. So sometimes

433
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 7: I haven't even been like aware of like dropping way.

434
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 7: I think I've always done a lot of exercise and

435
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,919
Speaker 7: a kind of now do pilates, so I used to

436
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 7: build a lot of muscle, So my body has changed,

437
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,359
Speaker 7: like you know, over the course of like many years,

438
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Speaker 7: I think, And so.

439
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:49,920
Speaker 3: I think.

440
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 7: Because I think when I got started modeling properly, I

441
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,719
Speaker 7: decided there was a part of me that hat that

442
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 7: to do it, to really kind of walk into it again,

443
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 7: I had to take on. It was almost like a

444
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,120
Speaker 7: It wasn't necessarily that I felt like that, but I

445
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 7: had to be like, this is who I am, do

446
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:15,959
Speaker 7: you know what I mean? Like take it or leave it,

447
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 7: you know what I mean. I'm not gonna be sucked

448
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 7: into this idea that I should be thinner or look

449
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 7: a different sort of way for you to kind of

450
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 7: appreciate me or want me. So I had to and

451
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 7: that's not exactly how I felt all the time, but

452
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 7: I had to sort of fake it to make it so.

453
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,239
Speaker 7: It wasn't necessarily I think I've always I don't know.

454
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 7: I was speaking on the pod, my own podcast about

455
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 7: this the other day. I think, I wonder if my

456
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,400
Speaker 7: relationship with myself will ever be.

457
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 3: What I wanted to be.

458
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 7: Whilst I model, I don't know if I have a

459
00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 7: to a certain extent, a healthy relationship with myself, but

460
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,400
Speaker 7: I wonder if my relationship with my body will ever

461
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 7: be what I want it to be as long as

462
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,880
Speaker 7: I'm kind of within the industry. And yes, it has

463
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 7: changed like drastically, do you know what I mean, the

464
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 7: likes of amazing people spearheading different sorts of movements. But

465
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,360
Speaker 7: you know, we only have to kind of look at

466
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 7: certain photos or fashion shows and we see the kind

467
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 7: of the.

468
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 3: Pressure that's play and I almost find it painful.

469
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 2: I haven't been to that many catwalk shows. I think

470
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 2: it probably it has when you see you know how

471
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 2: and kind of serious and all that. You know, I know,

472
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,880
Speaker 2: it's there to just showcase the clothes, and so it's

473
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 2: like being a hanger, but there is something as a

474
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 2: woman to see women doing that job is a little

475
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 2: bit yeah.

476
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,679
Speaker 7: And also when you know that someone's like kind of

477
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 7: unwell yeah, whatever that looks like for different people. When

478
00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 7: you know someone's kind of suffering with and you know,

479
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 7: disordered eating, but they are praised and celebrated within the

480
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 7: industry and they work even more. It's that in itself

481
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 7: is an uncomfortable thing to get your head around. I

482
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 7: think that's where sometimes the pressure for me lies. It

483
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,679
Speaker 7: isn't that I want to be onwell, it's just the

484
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 7: fact that I see people doing well because of it.

485
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?

486
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 7: And that's a that's a mad thing to get your

487
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:28,399
Speaker 7: head around.

488
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 2: When I told my friends that I would be recording

489
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 2: a podcast with Rick Rubin this weekend, the responses were rapturous,

490
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 2: what wow, incredible and can I come? It was the

491
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,360
Speaker 2: same in the River Cafe the other day when Rick

492
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 2: was there. Grown men trembled, women found excuses to hover

493
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 2: near his table. Chefs could barely grill the sea bass.

494
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 2: Rick Rubin is a decade long creative force with a

495
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 2: voice and influence that carries immeasurable weight. Co founder of

496
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 2: def Jam, winner of seven Grammys. As a friend in

497
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 2: music told me, Rick is unique together with discovering, mentoring

498
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 2: creating beautiful music with artists such as Adele Eminin, Beastie Boys,

499
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 2: Public Enemy, Run DMC, and for me, most movingly Johnny Cash.

500
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 2: His values, principles and kindness guide everyone he comes close to.

501
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 2: Tell me what happens when you go into the studio.

502
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:40,360
Speaker 2: You've eaten definitely, I've eaten before and now the way

503
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,120
Speaker 2: it used to work for the majority of my life.

504
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 8: I would wake up, do whatever I would do before

505
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 8: going into the studio, but once I would go to

506
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 8: the studio, that would be it for until I was

507
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 8: time to go to bed. So I would spend the

508
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 8: majority of my time, and which also means in those

509
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 8: days working in New York, it'd be a small room

510
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 8: with no windows, and I would be there for as

511
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 8: long as you know, until the sun came up, and

512
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 8: then I would walk or take a taxi home. So

513
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 8: the majority of my life, I would say, for at

514
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 8: least twenty five years, was being in a small dark room.

515
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 8: So I had very little life outside of a recording

516
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 8: studio because I worked so much so long. Now I've

517
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 8: found a way and just through doing it enough understanding

518
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 8: what's important for me to be there for, what's not

519
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 8: important for me to be there for. And now I

520
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 8: tend to have lunch, go to the studio, work from

521
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 8: maybe one till six.

522
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 2: And what do you do when you say you were.

523
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,199
Speaker 8: Listen to music and then talk about what we can

524
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 8: try next. Sometimes we do it right then, and sometimes

525
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 8: we're making a list of things to try after I

526
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 8: leave in the evening. It depends. I always have anxiety

527
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 8: when a project starts, because I never know what's going

528
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 8: to happen. We don't go in with any script. I

529
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 8: prefer to go in when we have songs. But then

530
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 8: there are a million ways to present a song. So

531
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 8: there's always this sense of what's going to separate this

532
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 8: body of work from the rest of the artist body

533
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,679
Speaker 8: of work and everyone else's work. And I don't know

534
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 8: what that is going in, So it's a real experiment

535
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 8: and we come in and I'm nervous until something good happens,

536
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 8: like ah, And then if that thing that's good, even

537
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,120
Speaker 8: if it's a even if it doesn't end up this way,

538
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 8: if it's a clue of what the whole vision of

539
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 8: the project can be, even if it's not what it is,

540
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 8: I feel better because at least there's a solution, even

541
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 8: if it doesn't end up being the solution, there's a

542
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 8: possible solution.

543
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 2: And that feels good because I was reading about the

544
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 2: way you work, and you said that you start with

545
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 2: an empty sheet. You know that you basically start with nothing, yes,

546
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 2: and then you move from nothing to what you're going

547
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 2: to record that day or work in my own little way,

548
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 2: in my own little restaurant, we come in with an

549
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 2: empty sheet of paper? Can we write the menu? Of course,

550
00:28:58,960 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 2: there are things that we always know.

551
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 3: We'll have montsarell.

552
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 2: We always know that we'll have four pastas, and we

553
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 2: always know that we'll have two dishes on the grill,

554
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 2: two dishes in the wood oven, then two dishes to roast.

555
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 2: But it does start with an empty sheet. And do

556
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 2: you have a parallel in that?

557
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 8: Absolutely? I come and we usually start by listening to

558
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 8: any ideas that the artists have. Whatever they are, they

559
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 8: could be. It could be a song. They may play

560
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,719
Speaker 8: a whole song and then talk about how to do it,

561
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 8: or they may play a demo of a whole worked

562
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 8: out arrangement of a song with musicians and everything. They

563
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 8: may come in and with a riff, you know, just

564
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 8: a little snippet of a song, or a melodic idea

565
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 8: or a lyrical idea, and then we talk about ways

566
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 8: of fleshing it out and what are the next stages

567
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 8: and what can it be. Sometimes they'll come to me

568
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 8: with a whole body of work, like an album's worth

569
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 8: of things that are in various stages of completion, and

570
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 8: then we listen and see is something that we can

571
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 8: Is this a starting point that we could build off of,

572
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 8: or is this almost like a recipe that we could

573
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 8: use to start from scratch? You never know it really is,

574
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 8: and then the experiments begin. We try different things, and

575
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 8: I like the idea of in the case of where

576
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 8: someone brings in something, I like the idea of stripping

577
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 8: back the elements and listening to what's there and even

578
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 8: if it wasn't done in an intentional way for the

579
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 8: way that it's going to be used. Sometimes you find

580
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 8: very interesting things that if you were trying to do it,

581
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 8: you might not do. It could be very interesting to

582
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 8: listen to.

583
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 2: It's also trust, isn't it that they trust what you're

584
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 2: saying to them, or they trust what your thoughts.

585
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 8: It's like if I gave you two dishes of food

586
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 8: and I asked you to taste them and ask you

587
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 8: which one you like better. The only right answer is

588
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 8: the one that you like better. Do you know what

589
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 8: I'm saying? There is no right answer. It's with taste.

590
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 8: It's you taste this, You taste this, Tell me which

591
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 8: one you like. There's no same tell me there's no

592
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 8: there are no wrong answers in taste. It is I've

593
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 8: been lucky that when I'm true to my taste, other

594
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 8: people have liked it. It's not the case for everybody,

595
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 8: but that's the best chance we have is to make

596
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 8: the thing that we love and hope that someone else

597
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 8: loves it. If you do something that you don't like

598
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 8: with the idea that someone else might like it, what

599
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 8: are the odds that's going to be good? Then no

600
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 8: one might like it, at least at least I like it,

601
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 8: you know, and I can go to sleep knowing it's

602
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 8: the best I could do. I love it. If no

603
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 8: one else likes it, it's okay. A certain person plays

604
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 8: a guitar piece and it's beautiful, and another person plays

605
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 8: the same guitar piece and there's this other magical dimension

606
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 8: to it that you can put a finger on. You

607
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 8: don't know why it's I don't even know if it

608
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 8: better's the right words. You don't know why it's different,

609
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 8: because technically it looks the same. But one of them

610
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 8: you want to hear over and over and over again

611
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 8: forever and you're filled with wonder. And the other one

612
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 8: it's the same notes in the same order, at the

613
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 8: same speed, played with great dexterity, but it doesn't have

614
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 8: this other life to it, and I would say the

615
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 8: same with food.

616
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 2: It's the same with the recipe, isn't it that you

617
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 2: can say I always say that a recipe is part

618
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 2: poetry and part science. Yes, and that the science is

619
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 2: the cord of a teaspoon of baking powder or three

620
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 2: tablespoons of sugar. And yet, as you say, the way

621
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 2: it's stirred, in the way it sifted, the way it's

622
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 2: put in the past.

623
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 8: So I have a question for you, how difficult is

624
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 8: it to keep the consistency of the quality of the

625
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 8: food with different people involved over time.

626
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question. I think that we have

627
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,479
Speaker 2: very few chefs, so it's not a big kitchen, and

628
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 2: we don't have what you're doing in Los Angeles when

629
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 2: I was in kitchens that you have one head chef

630
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 2: and a lot of chefs on the line. So there

631
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 2: is a kind of communication really.

632
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 6: Of how you do it.

633
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 2: But is that is what I look for every time

634
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 2: if you come to eat, My fears is that you know,

635
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 2: I'm grilled sea bass coming to the table going to

636
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 2: be the way it was the night before, and you know,

637
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 2: and very often when you're on the past, the head chef,

638
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 2: I don't know how it is in music, but the

639
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 2: head chef is the last person to see the plate

640
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 2: that goes out. And it's tricky because sometimes you just

641
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 2: keep sending it back to the chef who didn't quite

642
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 2: get it right, and you're taking away their confidence, you're

643
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 2: diminishing them, and you're destroying them. But on the other hand,

644
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 2: you know that you don't want to send something out,

645
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 2: so it's a constant, you know, judgment. How can you

646
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 2: tell a musician who's just the one that didn't play

647
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 2: the guitar the way? What do you do with someone

648
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 2: who's played something that isn't How do you give that?

649
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 8: I do my best to cast the people that can

650
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 8: do the work, and if not, I'll do it again

651
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 8: with someone else.

652
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 2: Tell me about some of the musicians and their food.

653
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 2: As there a musician that you actually.

654
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 8: That one of the things that because the nature of

655
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 8: the recording studio is this place you go to and

656
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 8: sometimes you spend a long time knowing what you're doing,

657
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 8: and sometimes you spend a long time trying to figure

658
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 8: out what you're doing or waiting for the thing to

659
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 8: come that you're there to do, but you don't know

660
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 8: what it is yet. So eating in the studio is

661
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,439
Speaker 8: a standard. And one of the things about Shangri Laud,

662
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 8: the studio that I have in Malibu, is most studios

663
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 8: have one runner, maybe two, and we have lots of runners.

664
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 8: And when people come and order food, food comes very quickly,

665
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 8: which historically in studio you'll order lunch and it might

666
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,399
Speaker 8: not come for two hours, whereas for whatever reason, at

667
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,399
Speaker 8: Shangra lab's very creature, comfort oriented, and we get really

668
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 8: good food really fast, and sometimes we and have a

669
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 8: chef because there's a kitchen. If you ever saw the

670
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 8: movie The Last Waltz, the band are in the kitchen

671
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 8: at Changra La, that's.

672
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 2: The You came into my house today and the first

673
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 2: thing you said was let's eat. Yes, you did quite quickly.

674
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 6: Is the habit.

675
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 2: A friend of mine once said that his family had

676
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 2: a rule that there should be no longer than forty

677
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 2: five seconds when someone walks into your house that they

678
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 2: have a drink in their hand. And actually, what I

679
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,919
Speaker 2: think that does is actually very nice, because it means

680
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 2: you're stopping what you're doing and you're giving somebody something

681
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 2: when they come in the house, you know, And I

682
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 2: think that means something. And so are the artists that

683
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 2: you do associate more with food than others. But then

684
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 2: Johnny Cash, he eat.

685
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,839
Speaker 8: Johnny Cash loved a restaurant in Los Angeles called the Ivy,

686
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 8: and wherever he would come to town, we would always

687
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 8: go to get it to the Ivy.

688
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 2: They're very few people who, even if you rarely see them,

689
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 2: stay close to your heart. For me, it's Wolfgang Puck.

690
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 2: I'm often asked who inspired Rose and I when we

691
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 2: opened the River Cafe, and the answer is Wolfgang. Before

692
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 2: he created Spago, the choice for choosing a restaurant was

693
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 2: eat delicious food, but be sure to dress up and

694
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 2: be prepared to feel intimidated by the soumeier chef or

695
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 2: just the atmosphere in the room, or eat less well,

696
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 2: but go out and have fun in a lively, exciting,

697
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 2: friendly place. With Spago, Wolfgang taught us we could do both,

698
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,919
Speaker 2: and he turned the world upside down. He made pizzas, luxurious,

699
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 2: airport food, delicious wood ovens for cooking, and took chefs

700
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 2: out of basement kitchens so diners could see them and

701
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 2: they could see the diners. A few months ago, he

702
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 2: came to the River Cafe for dinner with his family.

703
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 2: To everyone working there, it felt like a visit from

704
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 2: the gods. For me, it was a visit from a

705
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 2: man I loved, but rarely see a man who is

706
00:36:58,680 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 2: close to my heart.

707
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 9: Thank you.

708
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 2: Tell me about your family. Did you grow up with

709
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 2: good food?

710
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 9: You know, it's very interesting.

711
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 10: My mother was a chef, a professional chef, but she

712
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 10: didn't own a restaurant. She worked for a small hotel

713
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 10: on a beautiful lake in Carinthia, which is the southern

714
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 10: part of Austria next to Italian Slovenia, And so she was.

715
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:19,439
Speaker 9: A good cook.

716
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 10: And my stepfather was a coal miner and totally crazy

717
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 10: and alcoholic and everything, and my mother was like an angel.

718
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,760
Speaker 10: I don't know how the young and the young get together,

719
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 10: but it's impossible. And when I was fourteen, I had

720
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 10: to decide what to do, because you're the school finished.

721
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 10: At fourteen, I was finished with school and we didn't

722
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 10: have the money to go to Vienna to study. I

723
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 10: actually wanted to be an architect, did you yeah, But

724
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 10: then we didn't have the money to go.

725
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 9: So then my mother found me a job.

726
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 10: As an apprentice. My stepfather said, cooking, it's not a

727
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 10: profession for man. You should be a cap and or

728
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 10: you should be a mason, or you should be a

729
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 10: mechanic or whatever cooking is for women. And he said

730
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 10: you're good for nothing, because I hated to help.

731
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 9: Him and everything.

732
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 10: So I still remember when I left, which was fifty

733
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 10: miles away where I was starting my apprenticeship, and I

734
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 10: was fourteen years old.

735
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 9: I went to the train station with.

736
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 10: A little suitcase and then I take the train and

737
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 10: as I was walking out the house, he say, oh,

738
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 10: you're good for nothing. You're going to be back in

739
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 10: a month, and then cry for money and everything. I said,

740
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:29,760
Speaker 10: I'm never.

741
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 2: Coming back at age fourteen.

742
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,240
Speaker 10: At fourteen, yeah, And then I go there. I started

743
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,839
Speaker 10: my apprenticeship and the chef there was as crazy as

744
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 10: my stepfather. So I went from to the next and

745
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 10: you know, what do you doing it in the kitchen

746
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 10: here in the kitchens? Yeah, he was drunk all the

747
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 10: time too, and screaming like crazy, throwing think like crazy,

748
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 10: like it happened in the old time more than you think.

749
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 9: Yeah.

750
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 10: And so like three or four weeks into my apprentic

751
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 10: the ship on a Sunday. Sunday lunch was always the

752
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 10: busy day, and I was doing the potatoes and making

753
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 10: the mashed potatoes. That was like my job, and peeling

754
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 10: onions and carrots, watching the spinach. And we ran out

755
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 10: of mashed potatoes. We run out of potato potatoes. And

756
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 10: at the end of the service, he's queened like crazy,

757
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:19,919
Speaker 10: Oh your good for not saying we'll go back home.

758
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 10: So he told me, okay, you're fired, go back home

759
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 10: to your mother. And I was saying, I said, I

760
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 10: cannot go back home with my special my stepfather.

761
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 9: Yeah.

762
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 10: So that was probably the worst day in my life.

763
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 10: So I went on the thing and I said I'm

764
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 10: going to jump in the river and kill myself. And

765
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 10: I was fourteen years old. You know, I did not

766
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 10: say I said I cannot go back home. So I

767
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 10: was standing on the river there looking down and said,

768
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,399
Speaker 10: what will happen if I die?

769
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 9: You know, what is happening? Or what is hell? Or what?

770
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 9: And it was all these thoughts were going through my head.

771
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,879
Speaker 10: And then after a while, I said, you know what,

772
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 10: I'm just going to go back to more and see

773
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 10: what happened. So I went back back to the restaurant.

774
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 10: Back to the restaurant, so I bent. I couldn't sleep

775
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 10: all night. I went really early to the restaurant. Then

776
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 10: the apprentice who was both me came and told me that.

777
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 10: I said, oh, you're back. He was so happy.

778
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 9: I said, I don't have to build potatoes.

779
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 10: So he hit me down in the vegetable seller and

780
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,760
Speaker 10: I was peeling potatoes there. And after a few weeks

781
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 10: the chef comes down and sees me and start screaming

782
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 10: what you're doing here? He said get out of here,

783
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 10: and screamed, and that was saying. And then I said,

784
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,839
Speaker 10: I'm not leaving. I'm not leaving, and then he called

785
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 10: the owner. The owner was a little had a little

786
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:36,879
Speaker 10: more empathy and sent me to They had another small

787
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 10: hotel in town, and they said, maybe it goes over there,

788
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 10: and there had they had a lady who was the chef,

789
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 10: and she said, just do your job and be quiet

790
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 10: and don't do anything stupid and everything will be fine.

791
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 10: And sure enough I stayed there for three years, did

792
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 10: my apprenticeship, and after that I left for France.

793
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 2: When you think of your own children, don't you. We

794
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 2: think about how we treated four ten year old, how

795
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 2: you treat your children. I saw you the night you

796
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,800
Speaker 2: came in with your children, and I saw the parenting.

797
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 2: I saw the love, I saw the kindness, patience, and

798
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 2: then you just think what you had been through. You know,

799
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 2: it's interesting. We had a young woman who worked for

800
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,879
Speaker 2: a very famous restaurant in London and she said that

801
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 2: she was once taking soufles out of the oven and

802
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 2: the chef came over and put a frying pan over

803
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 2: her head and said, if these soufles don't rise, this

804
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 2: frying pan's going to be on your head. And I said,

805
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 2: what you should have done is put the soufles back

806
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 2: in the oven, gone, got your coat, left the restaurant

807
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 2: and gone to the police. You should go to the

808
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 2: police because that is abuse. But you know, somehow that

809
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 2: idea that somehow, because everybody's under pressure in a kitchen

810
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 2: it's okay, it's not okay. It's old fashioned and it's wrong.

811
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 10: Yeah, physical abuse wrong, Emotional abuse is totally wrong. And

812
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 10: I think one of the lessons I learned from them,

813
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 10: I said, I know, I want to be like my stepfather,

814
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 10: and I never want to be like the first chef

815
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 10: I worked for, because I think they did the opposite.

816
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 10: And I said, you know, if somebody that makes a mistake,

817
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 10: somebody does something wrong, I'm going to show them how

818
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 10: to do it right.

819
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 9: And sometimes it takes.

820
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 10: More than once, but you want to teach people. And

821
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 10: I think for me that was really an important part.

822
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 10: And later on I opened its cooking school, so I

823
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 10: had to teach people.

824
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 2: No. And so you got on the train and went

825
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 2: to where did you went to? France?

826
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 9: So then I went down there France.

827
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 10: I went to Dijon first and worked in a restaurant

828
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 10: called Trofezon. I was seventeen, seventeen, Yeah, so said I

829
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 10: have a son now seventeen. I said, wow, if he

830
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 10: would go, tell me tomorrow he's going to work in

831
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 10: Mexico City or somewhere. Let's say, I don't know. If

832
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 10: not by yourself, I'm gonna send a shutout for you.

833
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,799
Speaker 10: And so I went to France and then I was

834
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 10: working there, and after like a year or so, I

835
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 10: started to speak French. I didn't speak it at the beginning.

836
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 10: And then we had a party at a restaurant and

837
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 10: it was because we got a star.

838
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 9: In the gid mischland right and had a store. It

839
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 9: just got a new style. It didn't have one but

840
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 9: the go down.

841
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 10: And then I took one of these red books, looked

842
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 10: through it, and I said, oh shit, there it's one star,

843
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 10: two stars, three star restaurant. So I said, I'm not

844
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 10: going back to Austria before. I don't work in at

845
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 10: least in a two star, hopefully in the street star.

846
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,359
Speaker 10: So I wrote to Bocus to throw go to La

847
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 10: sal Or Total. You know all these famous three star restaurants.

848
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 10: The first one who said yes was Raymondally at Bomagnier in.

849
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 2: Provence, Abomania.

850
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 9: Yea, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's an amazing restaurant. But he

851
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 9: was on hell yeah yeah.

852
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 10: He was the most amazing personality. Not only he started

853
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 10: cooking when he was like fifty professional when he was

854
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:42,280
Speaker 10: fifty years old, but he was so passionate about the ingredients.

855
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 10: He had a lot of land there too. He had

856
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 10: six gardeners who bought like the best cavayon melon or

857
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:52,320
Speaker 10: strawberries or peas or green beans, really small.

858
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 2: You know.

859
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 10: So it was really an amazing experience to have somebody

860
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 10: at that age.

861
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 9: He was already seventy years old.

862
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,439
Speaker 10: But he was so passionate, and you know, going back

863
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 10: and forth in the dining room, and then he used

864
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 10: to come into the kitchen with Elizabet Taylor and who

865
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,479
Speaker 10: all of us young guys looked at her and said,

866
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 10: oh my god. A one time he came in with

867
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,879
Speaker 10: Marcelo Mastroiani and Katherine de Nerve, and I said, oh

868
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 10: Jesus Christ, I want to feel like him. So I

869
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 10: stayed there for two and a half years, and he

870
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 10: was the first person actually who respected me and says,

871
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 10: you know what, He made me feel good.

872
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 2: Last night, after dinner in the River cafe, I sat

873
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 2: with the chefs. Usually we talked about the evening service,

874
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,240
Speaker 2: what happened, who came, what we cooked. But this time,

875
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 2: knowing he was coming to the kitchen today, we spoke

876
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 2: about our guests, your term Atolangi. They've all the chefs

877
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 2: read his books, they've all eaten in his restaurants, and

878
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 2: like me, love his food. In short, they were thrilled

879
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:02,760
Speaker 2: he was coming. We both live and work in culture

880
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,799
Speaker 2: as far from where we were born. Today we will

881
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:11,280
Speaker 2: talk about separation and connection, Eastern and Western family and friends.

882
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 2: I did read that your first word was was it

883
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 2: the Israeli word for Hebrew word for soup?

884
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 11: Well, it is the kind of the little dumplings that

885
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 11: go into the soup, so it has the word soup

886
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 11: in it. Yeah, it was something I think my mom

887
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 11: used to spread on the table while we were waiting

888
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 11: for the food, and I just used to kind of

889
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 11: grab them and eat them.

890
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,800
Speaker 2: And So, going back then, starting at the very very beginning,

891
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 2: tell me about your early childhood in terms of food

892
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:39,720
Speaker 2: as well.

893
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 11: You know, yeah, so I grew up in Jerusalem and

894
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 11: the food in Jerusalem. At that point, can.

895
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 2: I just ask you, were your parents born in.

896
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 11: Israel or My parents were born in Europe just before

897
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 11: the Second World War, so, and they immigrated with their

898
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 11: parents as little kids just before the war in nineteen

899
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 11: thirty nine. My mother was from a German family, so

900
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 11: they were German Jews, and my father were they were

901
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 11: an Italian family from Florence.

902
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:10,760
Speaker 2: Really.

903
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 11: Yeah, so my dad was born in Florence and they

904
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 11: met in Israel and they so, yeah, they met in

905
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 11: Israel years later.

906
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, and.

907
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:24,439
Speaker 11: Jerusalem was so I grew up in a very kind

908
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:29,240
Speaker 11: of a non traditional Jewish home, very secular food wise,

909
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 11: Like we had pork, which nobody was unheard of.

910
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 3: You know.

911
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 11: My mom had that butcher in Jerusalem, the one and

912
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 11: only one that sold pork, but it was under the

913
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 11: counter and the brown bag. Yes, she used to come

914
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 11: and buy a ham, and we used to get ham

915
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 11: sandwiches for school. But you know, we were not allowed

916
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 11: to say what's in our sandwiches and we were not

917
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 11: allowed to share it with friends. So the cover story

918
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 11: was that it was a turkey where it was a

919
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 11: very pink turkey.

920
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 2: Great woman, very woman to come from Germany. She was

921
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 2: from Germany, so she probably had pork in Germany.

922
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 3: I was not going to give that up.

923
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:09,359
Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah, there were various secular you know, and so

924
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 11: she just had to have poor. But it was you know,

925
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 11: the stories about these things they sound quite you know inoccuus,

926
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 11: but actually it was quite. It was a big deal.

927
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 11: So that butcher and when people found out that he

928
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 11: was selling pork, you know, his shop was vandalized and

929
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 11: you'd have like people would like like glue in his locks,

930
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,359
Speaker 11: so he couldn't open the shop the next day, et cetera.

931
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 11: It was in Jerusalem. Food is not a neutral distance,

932
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:38,800
Speaker 11: you know, like all those decisions, all those things that happened,

933
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 11: political implications.

934
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 2: What year would this have been?

935
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 11: So this was so I was born in sixty eight,

936
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 11: so we're talking about the seventies and.

937
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 2: Eighties, so late as that.

938
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah, yeah, completely. So the food culture of the

939
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,439
Speaker 11: city was the food of the immigrants from wherever they came,

940
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 11: the Jewish immigrants, but also the Palestinian population, which was

941
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 11: so such a rich, wonderful culinary history. And I feel

942
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 11: that I grew up in this world in which we

943
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 11: ate very European food. At home, my father was cooking

944
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 11: traditionally Italian dishes, and my mom was kind of an

945
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:16,760
Speaker 11: international cook, but with a very Germanic approach to cooking.

946
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 11: But outside, you know, when we went out, we used

947
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 11: to have Palestinian food Arabic food, and that's the mix

948
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 11: that I grew up having, and I always thought that

949
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,320
Speaker 11: I was quite lucky to have had been exposed to

950
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 11: all those kind of foods from quite a young age.

951
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 2: Could your father find ingredients that he wanted for Italian.

952
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 11: Cooking, Yeah he could, so, first of all, had they

953
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:41,759
Speaker 11: used to have food, like I remember my grandparents, because

954
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 11: they couldn't really separate themselves from their Italian background, so

955
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 11: they used to have food sent to them, so we

956
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,279
Speaker 11: had to. We used to get like anchovy paste and

957
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 11: olive oil and biscuits and cookies and things. So they

958
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 11: always get these packages of Italian produce that arrived in Parmesan.

959
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 11: They lived about an hour from where we lived in Jerusalem.

960
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 11: They lived in the suburb of Tel Aviv, and I

961
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 11: used to come to their house as a kid with

962
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 11: my dad and the smell was just completely different. It

963
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 11: smelled of Italy in so many ways. So they kept

964
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 11: the Italian connection going on. And they used to travel

965
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:18,840
Speaker 11: in the summer because they had a house in the

966
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:21,919
Speaker 11: hills outside Florence that we used to go to when

967
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 11: I was growing up, So we had a lot of

968
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 11: a lot of that. So in between the Italian and

969
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 11: the Palestinian and the German influences, I've kind of had

970
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:31,880
Speaker 11: all that because.

971
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 2: I often think that I often say that in my

972
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 2: history as an interviewer that many of the people, especially immigrants,

973
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 2: talk more about their grandparents' food than their parents. That

974
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 2: if you've moved from your culture to another culture, the

975
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 2: mothers probably tried and adapt. So if you have a

976
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:54,439
Speaker 2: family from Ghana coming from Ghana to London, the mother

977
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 2: would try and kind of still remember her food she

978
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:01,360
Speaker 2: grew up with, but would try to adapt. Children completely

979
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:03,840
Speaker 2: adapted and would have the food of their friends, but

980
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:06,799
Speaker 2: the grandparents when he went to their house. They would

981
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 2: cook the Danaan food or the Italian food. And my

982
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:15,439
Speaker 2: mother in law left Italy for London pre war, and

983
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 2: her father, who's kind of Florentine site aristocrat, would send

984
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:23,800
Speaker 2: her candied oranges every month. You know that she craved

985
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 2: those kind of Italian the Italian food of your culture totally.

986
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,359
Speaker 11: And the only difference is that in Israel at the time,

987
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 11: there wasn't like a cuisine as such. It was because

988
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 11: it was just so early on and it was just

989
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 11: so new and so young, So a national cuisine has

990
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 11: not evolved. There was a Palestinian the Palestinian food was

991
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 11: extremely evolved, but what people would call Israeli food is

992
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 11: something that evolved later. But when I was growing up,

993
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 11: there was the food that Polish Jews would have cooked,

994
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 11: or Russian Jews, or Libyan Jews, or Moroccan Jews or

995
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 11: Iraqi Jews. Those each one had their own cuisine. But

996
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 11: I always like to say, like in Jerusalem was like

997
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 11: survival of the fittest, you know, like the best food

998
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 11: from every culture would surface and we'd have, Yeah, that's

999
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 11: really great.

1000
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 2: So you would have the Sephardic and you would have

1001
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:14,280
Speaker 2: so you'd.

1002
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:17,240
Speaker 11: Have the Sephardics, you know, salads and like and messes,

1003
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:19,359
Speaker 11: and you'd have like the bubbkas that would come from

1004
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 11: the anaz and and in some ways like some restaurants

1005
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 11: in Jerusalem these days that then when you go, that's

1006
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,720
Speaker 11: what's featured, you know, like the best of every culture

1007
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:30,760
Speaker 11: that makes up the city.

1008
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:33,239
Speaker 2: Did your parents take you to restaurants?

1009
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 3: Did you go out?

1010
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 11: Yeah, so we didn't have we didn't have great restaurants

1011
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 11: in Jerusalem in the sense in the way we have now.

1012
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 11: So this whole, this whole revolution in food has not

1013
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 11: happened yet, so we ate when we ate out. We

1014
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 11: used to go to Palestinian restaurants. So the war just

1015
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 11: happened not long before the nineteen sixty seven war in

1016
00:51:55,840 --> 00:52:02,320
Speaker 11: which Israel occupied East Jerusalem. So in some ways this

1017
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 11: is the pre traumatic times. You know, it was all

1018
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 11: very new and obviously it was complicated, but it was

1019
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 11: relatively peaceful. So I remember we used to go travel

1020
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 11: a lot into the West Bank. We used to go

1021
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 11: to Napolis to Jericho to have bron to have meals.

1022
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 11: So we used to go to Jericho and have like

1023
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:25,399
Speaker 11: incredibly little meals. Oh, we would have these spreads off

1024
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:27,920
Speaker 11: delicious things that you find. Some of them you'd know,

1025
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 11: and some of them you wouldn't, so from you know,

1026
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 11: like hummus or in Labana, you know the strained yogurt,

1027
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 11: but you'd also have like local herbs that'd be sauteed

1028
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 11: in garlic and olive oil. They have incredible so they

1029
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 11: have wonderful oranges, so you'd have orange juice freshly squeezed

1030
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 11: a bit like Seville's, like they have some of them

1031
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 11: that are cooking and some of them mostly for juicing

1032
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:53,800
Speaker 11: because it's so hot and humid, it's like perfect for

1033
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 11: citrus and lamb on the grails, so they have to

1034
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 11: cook lamb on open grill and right dishes like my cluba,

1035
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 11: like upside down rice cakes and bulgar salads. And it

1036
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 11: was the wrong an amazing wonderful olive oil, wonderful olive oil,

1037
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 11: and great freshly baked breads, pizza breads, and and other

1038
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:20,439
Speaker 11: variations on that fiend. Because of Palaestinas cook their bread

1039
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 11: in a taboon, which is that you know, that kind

1040
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 11: of ceramic oven or earthenware oven. So all that was there,

1041
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 11: and I really have really really strong memory of driving

1042
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,360
Speaker 11: down to Jericho and just having all these wonderful foods

1043
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 11: and coming back, but also in Jerusalem, I have such

1044
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,359
Speaker 11: strong memories of the of these flavors.

1045
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:44,480
Speaker 2: That's a question that I ask everyone if there's a

1046
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 2: food we know, people that we turn to for comfort

1047
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 2: and places we go for comfort, But if there's something

1048
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 2: that you would want to eat? Is there a food

1049
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 2: that you reach for when you really need comfort?

1050
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:59,279
Speaker 11: So I have to say that from all the things

1051
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:02,400
Speaker 11: that I've had, it's things that my father used to cook,

1052
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 11: or my Italian grandmother she used to make. And it's

1053
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 11: not just because I'm at the river fam saying that

1054
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:12,439
Speaker 11: she used to make chi ala Romanah.

1055
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:13,280
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1056
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 11: And it's the one smell that I have. As you know,

1057
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 11: people talk too much about, you know, those you know,

1058
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:25,240
Speaker 11: moments of childhood, but this is really one that stands

1059
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 11: so strong in my mind. In my head, that is

1060
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 11: the thinly spread semolina and yoki on a tray dotted

1061
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 11: with butter and cheese, and it would go under the

1062
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:38,840
Speaker 11: grail and all and since they did get great cheese

1063
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 11: from Italy and they had great parmigiano and they she

1064
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 11: would put that under the grill and it would just

1065
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 11: smelt and that kind of semolina soft, you know, milky,

1066
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:51,319
Speaker 11: with the grated cheese, melted cheese on top. It's just

1067
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 11: it's just such a childhood favor and that is definitely

1068
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 11: the one that brings the most comfort to me. And

1069
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 11: I've never managed to do it as not even remotely

1070
00:54:59,040 --> 00:54:59,799
Speaker 11: as good as she's.

1071
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:02,279
Speaker 2: I know, well, we'll try and make it for if

1072
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 2: I know, we would have put it on the menu. Yeah, yeah,

1073
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 2: especially we have it on very often when we have

1074
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 2: white truffles because it's one of those delicious recipes, which

1075
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:17,879
Speaker 2: it's still just without white truffles, but it does take

1076
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 2: because it's like it's almost going to be like a

1077
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 2: cheese and they are so delicious. So we're going to

1078
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 2: go ahead and have lunch in the River Cafe now

1079
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 2: without Jockey and Romana. For the next time we do,

1080
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:34,920
Speaker 2: we'll definitely have so yes, let's do it.

1081
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 3: Thank you very much, great than.

1082
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 2: If you like listening to Ruthie's Table for would you

1083
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:49,839
Speaker 2: please make sure to rate and review the podcast on

1084
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:54,879
Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get

1085
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:56,960
Speaker 2: your podcasts. Thank you.

1086
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:07,239
Speaker 1: Ruthie's Table four is a production of iHeartRadio and Adami Studios.

1087
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:13,040
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1088
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:15,240
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