Speaker 1: iHeart podcasts, bring you the ultimate Summer of love Tree.
Speaker 1: This is famously Available. Welcome back to Famously Available. I'm
Speaker 1: your host, Ben Higgins, and this week I decided to
Speaker 1: enlist some professional help for our famously available gal Dianna.
Speaker 1: After that date didn't go so well. I'm bringing in
Speaker 1: psychologist doctor Hillary gold Shure to go in deep with Diana.
Speaker 1: Doctor Hillary does in depth work in the arena of relationships,
Speaker 1: guiding couples and individuals in all seasons of life such
Speaker 1: as premarital, married, separated, divorce, and high conflict divorce. I've
Speaker 1: raved about my own experience with therapy, especially after a breakup,
Speaker 1: so I think this will be really good for Deanna.
Speaker 1: So ladies take it away.
Speaker 2: Hi, doctor Hillary, I'm Deanna. Thanks for coming in today.
Speaker 2: I'm here for you to fix me, heal me, and
Speaker 2: and make me better.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 4: If I could do that in one therapy session, I
Speaker 4: would be an incredibly sought after therapist.
Speaker 3: But I will do my best under the circumstances.
Speaker 4: So I am a licensed clinical psychologist, and I am
Speaker 4: an expert in relationships stuff, and one of my areas
Speaker 4: of expertise in particular is divorce and high conflict, divorces,
Speaker 4: and co parenting, and so it may or may not
Speaker 4: be relevant.
Speaker 2: You'll have to tell me be relevant, doctor Hillary. So
Speaker 2: under that.
Speaker 4: Umbrella, of course, is often the world of dating and
Speaker 4: the unfolding of a new season of relationships in the
Speaker 4: after marriage. I like to call it the period of
Speaker 4: time when someone is divorced. So it sounds like, from
Speaker 4: what I understand, you are square in the middle of
Speaker 4: that trajectory.
Speaker 3: You know what.
Speaker 2: I was having this thought this morning. I was just
Speaker 2: running through much of my morning and I was thinking, like,
Speaker 2: when I talked to you, I was really scared that
Speaker 2: you were gonna be like, Okay, well you're not healed.
Speaker 2: You don't need to date, you don't need to do
Speaker 2: these things. And I listen. I'm an advocate for therapy.
Speaker 2: I believe in therapy. I believe in all of the
Speaker 2: help that you can possibly get. I'm in therapy right
Speaker 2: now and have been over the years. So I don't
Speaker 2: believe that healing just happens that one day you wake
Speaker 2: up and you're cured because you've done eight sessions with therapists, right.
Speaker 2: I believe that healing is a life situation that we
Speaker 2: are currently being refined to be our best selves, and
Speaker 2: that is a goal of mine and always has been.
Speaker 2: But I started running through just kind of my dating
Speaker 2: history in my own brain this morning as I was
Speaker 2: looking at have I ever really had an example of
Speaker 2: a healthy relationship? And I don't think that I have,
Speaker 2: Doctor Hillary. My parents divorced when I was really young,
Speaker 2: and I would say that they were absolutely high conflict.
Speaker 2: So one of the few things that it taught me
Speaker 2: is what I don't want to be for my own children.
Speaker 2: Oddly enough, my ex husband and I are high conflict.
Speaker 2: We are not friends. I have a lot of bitterness, resentment,
Speaker 2: and hatred towards him. And it was so interesting because
Speaker 2: when we were divorcing, even though it wasn't something that
Speaker 2: I asked for, I had that mental note that, like,
Speaker 2: I don't want to do to my children what my
Speaker 2: parents did to me. So you know, I work really
Speaker 2: hard at not speaking negatively about their father, because the
Speaker 2: truth is our marriage ended, we are no longer together,
Speaker 2: and I may have my own feelings and some of
Speaker 2: those can be valid and not, but the truth is
Speaker 2: my children deserve to have their father and love their father.
Speaker 2: That's what they get. I don't want them to carry
Speaker 2: the burden of the unhealth that took place within myself
Speaker 2: or with him or within our marriage. So I have
Speaker 2: really worked very hard. And people don't talk about that
Speaker 2: co parenting with someone that you absolutely hate, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, or how difficult that is with the
Speaker 2: history between us and stuff. So long story short, I
Speaker 2: started running through the gamut in my own head of relationships.
Speaker 2: My parents divorced when I was very young, and it
Speaker 2: was very toxic. I watched them fight a lot. I
Speaker 2: have dated throughout my life. I am no spring chicken.
Speaker 2: I am forty three years old, and I started looking
Speaker 2: at some of the relationships that I have been in,
Speaker 2: and I don't know that they were good examples of
Speaker 2: what a healthy, loving relationship looks like. And then before
Speaker 2: I got married, you know, and I have a history
Speaker 2: on television. I literally went on a dating show, which
Speaker 2: is a whole other session here, doctor Hillary. But I
Speaker 2: believe that I was a securely attached woman when my
Speaker 2: ex husband and I met. I had a very healthy
Speaker 2: outlook on relationships and what they should be like. And
Speaker 2: somewhere along the way I became a very anxiously attached woman.
Speaker 2: I clung to a marriage on hands and knees some days,
Speaker 2: and I don't know now looking back anxious attachment that
Speaker 2: was triggered at the time. But it's so funny because
Speaker 2: I have done a DSM five since and I have
Speaker 2: been evaluated, and I actually scored really well. My anxiety
Speaker 2: and my CPTSD is significantly lower. I'm no longer living
Speaker 2: in a fight or flight, but that I also, again,
Speaker 2: several years after my divorce, tested as a securely attached woman.
Speaker 2: But sometimes I wonder what is still broken because I
Speaker 2: haven't I don't know that I know what a healthy
Speaker 2: relationship looks like. So I'll let you take it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, We've brought up so many important, nuanced issues that
Speaker 4: I'm really happy I have a chance to talk about,
Speaker 4: which is so two things can be true at the
Speaker 4: same time, which is often the case in life. But
Speaker 4: in this circumstance, I'm sure it's true that under certain
Speaker 4: circumstances and in certain seasons of your life, you are
Speaker 4: clearly a securely attached person. You've tested as much, and
Speaker 4: you know yourself well enough to sort of endorse that
Speaker 4: that has felt true at seasons in your life, and
Speaker 4: it sounds like at other seasons it's pivoted, and that
Speaker 4: often happens under the umbrella of trauma.
Speaker 3: What I mean is this, if it's true that.
Speaker 4: You came from a family where there was a high conflict, example,
Speaker 4: as your primary model for a relationship, a high conflict divorce,
Speaker 4: I imagine there was some version of and I'm careful
Speaker 4: with this word, but some version of trauma as a
Speaker 4: child of divorce parents and witnessing those kind of dynamics, right,
Speaker 4: and so you'd be pulled to internalize a more anxious
Speaker 4: or avoidant attachment style. It sounds like an intersection of
Speaker 4: your own disposition, just like how you came into the
Speaker 4: world and the therapeutic work that you have done land
Speaker 4: in you in a place of secure attachment at least
Speaker 4: having the skill set to show up that way. But
Speaker 4: under stress and dress, trauma returns. Trauma responses return sometimes
Speaker 4: and we're much more vulnerable to show sort of immersed
Speaker 4: in the old patterns that are rooted in trauma. And
Speaker 4: so for you, I think both are true that you
Speaker 4: can and are securely it can be and are a
Speaker 4: securely attached person, but under stress and duress, that old
Speaker 4: pull for those old patterns and the things that you
Speaker 4: witnessed and saw might show up without you even realizing
Speaker 4: it until to your point you're add a fight or flight.
Speaker 4: You're odd of your nervous system being so activated that
Speaker 4: you then have an opportunity to be outside of your
Speaker 4: feelings versus in them.
Speaker 2: I really appreciate that, doctor Hillary, because I was afraid
Speaker 2: I was going to leave here today and you were
Speaker 2: going to diagnose me with borderline personality disorder, severe depression, schizophrenia,
Speaker 2: whatever is on the gambit. You know, because there are
Speaker 2: times where I have felt like in and I know
Speaker 2: this now through a lot, and I've done a lot
Speaker 2: of trauma work in particular, that I have felt nuts.
Speaker 2: And I do know that women of emotional abuse or
Speaker 2: narcissistic abuse, we tend to look at us and go, Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm crazy, something is wrong with me. I ended up
Speaker 2: in therapy and I kept looking at my going, what's
Speaker 2: wrong with me? I am crazy? There's something wrong here,
Speaker 2: Please fix me. Something is wrong. And I've done enough
Speaker 2: work to know that it's not always me. I'm not
Speaker 2: saying that I didn't add too. I am not perfect
Speaker 2: by any means, but I do know that I don't
Speaker 2: have to carry the responsibility of all of it anymore.
Speaker 2: So I am joking when I say that that you
Speaker 2: were going to leave here and tell everybody I'm famously available.
Speaker 2: That I'm absolutely not tape. But there are pieces for
Speaker 2: me to carry. And that is why I have done
Speaker 2: so much work and so much therapy on myself. Is
Speaker 2: because my goal in life, my prayer to my higher
Speaker 2: power is like I want to be a good woman.
Speaker 2: I want to be a good mother and eventually a
Speaker 2: good partner like I do really want that. I do
Speaker 2: really want a great, great love. And the other big piece,
Speaker 2: Chuctor Hillary, is I don't want to make the same
Speaker 2: mistakes that I have made in the past. I don't
Speaker 2: live a life of regret. I obviously have two really beautiful,
Speaker 2: wonderful children. There is a reason my husband and I
Speaker 2: came together and connected. Sometimes I have a really hard
Speaker 2: time finding those but I have two wonderful children. There
Speaker 2: is a purpose in life that he and I were
Speaker 2: supposed to be together. We were supposed to have these
Speaker 2: really great children. And I just believe that there is
Speaker 2: something guiding me to different things, and in order to
Speaker 2: get to those things, I am a constant work on
Speaker 2: myself and refinement because that is the truth. I want
Speaker 2: to be better, I want to be healthier. I don't
Speaker 2: want to make the same mistakes. I do not want
Speaker 2: to dismiss the same red flags and a relationship.
Speaker 3: Ever again, yes, I mean it is.
Speaker 4: It may seem paradoxical, but it's a very empowering stance
Speaker 4: that you're describing, which is acknowledging that every dynamic is
Speaker 4: co created, right, every dynastic, even if all we contributed,
Speaker 4: I'm putting, like all we contributed quotes is to stay
Speaker 4: longer than we should have. Right, even if that's it,
Speaker 4: that's still a dynamic that we bring. Yes, And so
Speaker 4: in your circumstance, when a relationship is painful and high
Speaker 4: conflict and we have resentment and the history of toxicity,
Speaker 4: being able to understand what your part is and what
Speaker 4: you created is critical.
Speaker 3: It's not about blame or shame.
Speaker 4: It's about empowerment and self reflection and understanding. So I
Speaker 4: really like the way that you're talking about it, and
Speaker 4: the really nice thing about where you've arrived. And I
Speaker 4: highlighted this earlier, but I think it's so important. It's
Speaker 4: one of the keys in my view to psychological health,
Speaker 4: which is the ability to be inside the feeling or
Speaker 4: outside the feeling. And when you're looking at your therapists
Speaker 4: and saying, what's wrong with me?
Speaker 3: Why did I do that? Why did I say that?
Speaker 3: What did I show up that way?
Speaker 4: If that's part of what you were conveying, that's you
Speaker 4: at that moment inside the feeling. Right, we're angry, we're
Speaker 4: we're resent full, we're sad, depressed, whatever the thing is,
Speaker 4: we're ashamed, and we show up embodying the feeling. And
Speaker 4: when we're in the feeling, it's really hard to make choices.
Speaker 4: It's really hard to feel like we have a bunch
Speaker 4: of options in terms of how we can show up.
Speaker 4: We're just operating from the feeling, and often that's anger,
Speaker 4: and then later we may have regretted about how we
Speaker 4: showed up the skill of being able to be outside
Speaker 4: the feeling, meaning looking at it, acknowledging it, talking about it,
Speaker 4: advocating around it. So that doesn't mean we don't say
Speaker 4: I don't like the way you're talking to me, I
Speaker 4: don't like the way you're treating me. I won't let
Speaker 4: you speak to me that way. Right, that's advocacy versus aggression.
Speaker 4: So the minute we're outside the feeling, we have all
Speaker 4: sorts of choices about how we want to show up
Speaker 4: and how we want to communicate, what we need, what
Speaker 4: we want, how we want to set boundaries. Inside the feeling,
Speaker 4: we almost have no choices other than being led by
Speaker 4: this feeling that we don't have any say in. And
Speaker 4: so I really like to talk about this difference is
Speaker 4: to nuance. But once you deeply understand it and you
Speaker 4: have the goal to recognize when you're in and when
Speaker 4: you're out.
Speaker 3: When you're in, you.
Speaker 4: Can take a pause, you can take a break, you
Speaker 4: can come back later after resetting, because we know when
Speaker 4: we're in the feeling, we don't usually get anywhere that
Speaker 4: feels good. And then we we're outside of the feeling,
Speaker 4: we can make a plan for what we want to
Speaker 4: do on our own behalf.
Speaker 2: Gosh, you said so many nuggets of truth. I have
Speaker 2: forgotten at times that we're recording a podcast because I
Speaker 2: love therapy. I love therapy, I love the deep dive.
Speaker 2: I love to take a hard look at me and
Speaker 2: work on the things that I need to work on.
Speaker 2: And what came to mind for me when you just
Speaker 2: said that is that I have a real problem with perfectionism,
Speaker 2: and I don't like for people to view me as
Speaker 2: and I'll share some of the words that have been
Speaker 2: used against me right difficult that I'm too difficult to
Speaker 2: let you know in moments of pain where I didn't
Speaker 2: feel like I could stand up for myself because I
Speaker 2: didn't want to be too difficult. It was too difficult
Speaker 2: to be loved in my marriage because I had an opinion.
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that I always went about my
Speaker 2: opinion in the best way. I am a very strong personality.
Speaker 2: I am very very passionate about the things that I
Speaker 2: do believe in, and I have a real problem with
Speaker 2: expecting people to be like me. Like, just to put
Speaker 2: it in the dumbest terms, yeah possible. I love really hard.
Speaker 2: I am loyal to a fault to myself, a detriment
Speaker 2: to myself. I am that loyal. I will go to
Speaker 2: the grave for the people that I love. My biggest
Speaker 2: moments of joy and happiness was when I was together
Speaker 2: with my ex husband and his family, and we were
Speaker 2: together and enjoyful and laughing, and at times I chose
Speaker 2: them over my own family. I am loyal to a
Speaker 2: fault to myself, and what has been really difficult for me,
Speaker 2: and a learning experience is that I expected others to
Speaker 2: be that way because I was that way. I what's
Speaker 2: it called when you put it on someone else? Yes,
Speaker 2: I projected that. I projected that I wanted the people
Speaker 2: around me to love me and choose me because I
Speaker 2: did it at all costs to detriment to myself. And
Speaker 2: then when I was viewed as being too difficult or
Speaker 2: too challenging to love, I was too scared to speak
Speaker 2: up for what I thought was right or my opinion
Speaker 2: because I didn't want to be dubbed too difficult, too challenging.
Speaker 2: Because there is a lot of beauty in those things.
Speaker 2: I am not one to sweep under the rug and
Speaker 2: pretend like it's perfect. I'm just not. That's not how
Speaker 2: I live life. So in general, for any man that
Speaker 2: wants to to jump into a relationship with me or
Speaker 2: a dating scenario, that's not who I am. Life to
Speaker 2: me is not perfect, and I deal with hard things
Speaker 2: and I am willing to face them head on. But
Speaker 2: I am not a person who can pretend that hard
Speaker 2: things don't happen. HAVE been through a lot of hard
Speaker 2: things in my life. I have had to endure some
Speaker 2: really difficult things, and it does me personally a disservice
Speaker 2: to stuff those I am not a stuffer. I cannot
Speaker 2: function that way. But I share all of this with
Speaker 2: you because I guess I'm looking for advice when it
Speaker 2: comes to relationships and the deepness that I crave. I
Speaker 2: do not do surface level well. I am a deep
Speaker 2: lover in all relationships and all capacity of my life.
Speaker 2: I need that deep connection, that is what I need.
Speaker 2: I tend to project that on the other people around
Speaker 2: me because I want them to love like I do.
Speaker 2: And the truth is not everyone is capable of that.
Speaker 2: So I think what I am asking you is, with
Speaker 2: that little nuggative truth, what do I do in that scenario?
Speaker 2: What am I choosing wrong? Is my picker off? Is
Speaker 2: that what's wrong here?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 3: Maybe maybe not.
Speaker 4: I think there's sort of a macro theme here and
Speaker 4: then like in the weeds of being in a real
Speaker 4: relationship and what it's like to show up when you
Speaker 4: have conflict or misalignment. So on a macro basis, it
Speaker 4: seems like you need to find someone who is interested
Speaker 4: in that kind of growth, that kind of expansion, that
Speaker 4: a thematic notion of like I'm a person who likes
Speaker 4: to think about things, process things, and I consider it
Speaker 4: intimate to work through conflict with my partner, Like you
Speaker 4: should find someone who has an interest around that, a
Speaker 4: language around that, an ability.
Speaker 3: To do that.
Speaker 2: You were doctor Hillary, I should.
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, because I mean look at if we
Speaker 4: get unemotional about it an objective. We can even say
Speaker 4: that it's not about right or wrong or good or bad.
Speaker 4: Maybe your way isn't right and another guy's way of
Speaker 4: like I don't like to do those things. I like
Speaker 4: to kind of skate on the surface. We don't have
Speaker 4: to call it right or wrong, but they should be
Speaker 4: somewhat aligned. You should have sort of a mutual goal
Speaker 4: of like, yes, that's something, that's a language I'm interested in,
Speaker 4: that's something I'm looking for. Is that kind of depth,
Speaker 4: that kind of intimacy, that kind of passion, Because certainly,
Speaker 4: in my experience from a clinical standpoint, when you have
Speaker 4: a relationship that that includes those aspects, it's intimacy building.
Speaker 4: It's bonding to be able to work through hard things
Speaker 4: and share vulnerable feelings and get to know your partners
Speaker 4: like pain points and care about them. Not everyone wants
Speaker 4: to have relationships like that. But if you do, you
Speaker 4: want at least find someone that's up for that or
Speaker 4: interested in it.
Speaker 2: Man, I'm going to reapt you real quick because I
Speaker 2: like that that's the way that you labeled it, and
Speaker 2: I just have this like epiphany believe that is what
Speaker 2: I crave, is the emotional intimacy in a relationship. And
Speaker 2: I've never used those words to describe it that way,
Speaker 2: but I think you hit the nail on the head.
Speaker 2: That's what I want. I want emotional intimacy.
Speaker 4: People don't often conceptualize working through conflict and difficulty as that,
Speaker 4: but as a couple's therapist, when you guide and support
Speaker 4: couples to work through hard things in like a caring,
Speaker 4: invested way, even when it's conflictual and painful, when they
Speaker 4: come out the other end, it's intimacy building, it's bonding,
Speaker 4: and it's lovely. I mean, that kind of depth can
Speaker 4: be reached myriad of ways, but that's certainly one of them.
Speaker 4: And if that resonates with you, it's good to know,
Speaker 4: and it's a good way to be able to talk
Speaker 4: about it and like put words to it when you
Speaker 4: get into that relationship, when you have a candidate that's
Speaker 4: at least somewhere like in the ballpark of interest and
Speaker 4: emotional intimacy a couple of things one and you already
Speaker 4: acknowledge this. It doesn't have to look like your version
Speaker 4: of emotional intimacy. You have to broker something that mutually resonates, right,
Speaker 4: And we'll get into that. But it's a good thing
Speaker 4: to know about yourself that if you look for it
Speaker 4: to be exactly like how you do it, that might
Speaker 4: get you in trouble because people have different ways to
Speaker 4: get there and different needs to have and seek support
Speaker 4: to get there, and so the goal of emotional intimacy
Speaker 4: can be reached a plethora of ways, and so being
Speaker 4: open to how you get there versus how a partner
Speaker 4: gets there and kind of co creating something that works
Speaker 4: for both. And I want to say this to allude
Speaker 4: to some of the things you brought up, which is
Speaker 4: that you know it's all in my view about the messaging, right,
Speaker 4: and so your interest in not sweeping things under the
Speaker 4: rug and calling things out and being truthful about your
Speaker 4: emotions and a relationship, I think is an appropriate way
Speaker 4: to move through relationships in general. Unless two people agree
Speaker 4: like that's just not how we're going to do it,
Speaker 4: and that's good for us. But in general, that is
Speaker 4: my recommendation because the more we suppress, the more we
Speaker 4: have symptoms, and symptoms in a relationship look like disconnection,
Speaker 4: lack of intimacy, agitation, irritation, disconnection, all the things right,
Speaker 4: And so the more we suppress, there.
Speaker 3: Is going to be emotional rent to pay it.
Speaker 2: Just this.
Speaker 4: And so if you suppress, like it sounds like you
Speaker 4: did at some point in your previous relationship.
Speaker 2: I never never suppressed. Maybe that's wrong.
Speaker 4: Well it comes out some other way. So either you're
Speaker 4: you're not curating how you're you're communicating it and it's
Speaker 4: hard to digest, or one is suppressing and there's symptoms
Speaker 4: that arise.
Speaker 3: So you have to figure out.
Speaker 4: A delivery system that works right, that is that is
Speaker 4: digestible to the other. And I think that's where we
Speaker 4: can get creative and have a lot of growth. Is
Speaker 4: that I often say in my own relationships with my
Speaker 4: own young children, you know my message is on point,
Speaker 4: you know my delivery might have been off that time, right,
Speaker 4: And so the message is something we want to be
Speaker 4: deeply you know, committed to invested in precious sacred with right,
Speaker 4: but how we deliver it. We should co create what
Speaker 4: works for our partner. Is there a certain tone that
Speaker 4: doesn't feel supportive? Is there a certain time of day
Speaker 4: that feels like it's too overwhelming? Is there a way
Speaker 4: to move into a conversation about someone like asking them
Speaker 4: if they're available for a hard time that gets them
Speaker 4: more grounded?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 4: That we should try to broker and negotiate. How do
Speaker 4: you want to have a conversation that's tricky? And that
Speaker 4: doesn't mean we adhere to everything our partner asks for
Speaker 4: and barry who we are, but we should be in
Speaker 4: the business of like brokering, negotiating and co creating something
Speaker 4: that works. And in the absence of that, I often
Speaker 4: see couples sort of like, you know, intense misalignment. They're
Speaker 4: just like missing each other constantly because the delivery system
Speaker 4: that tell them the words, the approach that they're using
Speaker 4: to communicate what's happening with them is not resonant, is
Speaker 4: not digestible.
Speaker 1: It's been jumping back in here. This conversation with doctor
Speaker 1: Hillary and Deanna is getting really good. But I think
Speaker 1: this is the perfect place for us to take a
Speaker 1: pause and we'll come back for more very soon.