1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: iHeart podcasts, bring you the ultimate Summer of love Tree. 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: This is famously Available. Welcome back to Famously Available. I'm 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: your host, Ben Higgins, and this week I decided to 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: enlist some professional help for our famously available gal Dianna. 5 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: After that date didn't go so well. I'm bringing in 6 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 1: psychologist doctor Hillary gold Shure to go in deep with Diana. 7 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: Doctor Hillary does in depth work in the arena of relationships, 8 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: guiding couples and individuals in all seasons of life such 9 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: as premarital, married, separated, divorce, and high conflict divorce. I've 10 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: raved about my own experience with therapy, especially after a breakup, 11 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: so I think this will be really good for Deanna. 12 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 1: So ladies take it away. 13 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 2: Hi, doctor Hillary, I'm Deanna. Thanks for coming in today. 14 00:00:55,960 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 2: I'm here for you to fix me, heal me, and 15 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 2: and make me better. 16 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 3: Wow. 17 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 4: If I could do that in one therapy session, I 18 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 4: would be an incredibly sought after therapist. 19 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 3: But I will do my best under the circumstances. 20 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 4: So I am a licensed clinical psychologist, and I am 21 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 4: an expert in relationships stuff, and one of my areas 22 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 4: of expertise in particular is divorce and high conflict, divorces, 23 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 4: and co parenting, and so it may or may not 24 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 4: be relevant. 25 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 2: You'll have to tell me be relevant, doctor Hillary. So 26 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 2: under that. 27 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 4: Umbrella, of course, is often the world of dating and 28 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 4: the unfolding of a new season of relationships in the 29 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 4: after marriage. I like to call it the period of 30 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 4: time when someone is divorced. So it sounds like, from 31 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 4: what I understand, you are square in the middle of 32 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 4: that trajectory. 33 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 3: You know what. 34 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 2: I was having this thought this morning. I was just 35 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 2: running through much of my morning and I was thinking, like, 36 00:01:57,600 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 2: when I talked to you, I was really scared that 37 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 2: you were gonna be like, Okay, well you're not healed. 38 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 2: You don't need to date, you don't need to do 39 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 2: these things. And I listen. I'm an advocate for therapy. 40 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 2: I believe in therapy. I believe in all of the 41 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,799 Speaker 2: help that you can possibly get. I'm in therapy right 42 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 2: now and have been over the years. So I don't 43 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 2: believe that healing just happens that one day you wake 44 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 2: up and you're cured because you've done eight sessions with therapists, right. 45 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 2: I believe that healing is a life situation that we 46 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 2: are currently being refined to be our best selves, and 47 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 2: that is a goal of mine and always has been. 48 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 2: But I started running through just kind of my dating 49 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 2: history in my own brain this morning as I was 50 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 2: looking at have I ever really had an example of 51 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 2: a healthy relationship? And I don't think that I have, 52 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 2: Doctor Hillary. My parents divorced when I was really young, 53 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 2: and I would say that they were absolutely high conflict. 54 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 2: So one of the few things that it taught me 55 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 2: is what I don't want to be for my own children. 56 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 2: Oddly enough, my ex husband and I are high conflict. 57 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 2: We are not friends. I have a lot of bitterness, resentment, 58 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 2: and hatred towards him. And it was so interesting because 59 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 2: when we were divorcing, even though it wasn't something that 60 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 2: I asked for, I had that mental note that, like, 61 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 2: I don't want to do to my children what my 62 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,959 Speaker 2: parents did to me. So you know, I work really 63 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 2: hard at not speaking negatively about their father, because the 64 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 2: truth is our marriage ended, we are no longer together, 65 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 2: and I may have my own feelings and some of 66 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 2: those can be valid and not, but the truth is 67 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 2: my children deserve to have their father and love their father. 68 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 2: That's what they get. I don't want them to carry 69 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 2: the burden of the unhealth that took place within myself 70 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 2: or with him or within our marriage. So I have 71 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 2: really worked very hard. And people don't talk about that 72 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 2: co parenting with someone that you absolutely hate, you know 73 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 2: what I mean, or how difficult that is with the 74 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 2: history between us and stuff. So long story short, I 75 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 2: started running through the gamut in my own head of relationships. 76 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 2: My parents divorced when I was very young, and it 77 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 2: was very toxic. I watched them fight a lot. I 78 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 2: have dated throughout my life. I am no spring chicken. 79 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 2: I am forty three years old, and I started looking 80 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 2: at some of the relationships that I have been in, 81 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 2: and I don't know that they were good examples of 82 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 2: what a healthy, loving relationship looks like. And then before 83 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 2: I got married, you know, and I have a history 84 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 2: on television. I literally went on a dating show, which 85 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 2: is a whole other session here, doctor Hillary. But I 86 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 2: believe that I was a securely attached woman when my 87 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 2: ex husband and I met. I had a very healthy 88 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 2: outlook on relationships and what they should be like. And 89 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: somewhere along the way I became a very anxiously attached woman. 90 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 2: I clung to a marriage on hands and knees some days, 91 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 2: and I don't know now looking back anxious attachment that 92 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 2: was triggered at the time. But it's so funny because 93 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 2: I have done a DSM five since and I have 94 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 2: been evaluated, and I actually scored really well. My anxiety 95 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 2: and my CPTSD is significantly lower. I'm no longer living 96 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 2: in a fight or flight, but that I also, again, 97 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 2: several years after my divorce, tested as a securely attached woman. 98 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 2: But sometimes I wonder what is still broken because I 99 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 2: haven't I don't know that I know what a healthy 100 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 2: relationship looks like. So I'll let you take it. 101 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, We've brought up so many important, nuanced issues that 102 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 4: I'm really happy I have a chance to talk about, 103 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 4: which is so two things can be true at the 104 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 4: same time, which is often the case in life. But 105 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 4: in this circumstance, I'm sure it's true that under certain 106 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 4: circumstances and in certain seasons of your life, you are 107 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 4: clearly a securely attached person. You've tested as much, and 108 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 4: you know yourself well enough to sort of endorse that 109 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 4: that has felt true at seasons in your life, and 110 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 4: it sounds like at other seasons it's pivoted, and that 111 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 4: often happens under the umbrella of trauma. 112 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 3: What I mean is this, if it's true that. 113 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 4: You came from a family where there was a high conflict, example, 114 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 4: as your primary model for a relationship, a high conflict divorce, 115 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 4: I imagine there was some version of and I'm careful 116 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 4: with this word, but some version of trauma as a 117 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 4: child of divorce parents and witnessing those kind of dynamics, right, 118 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 4: and so you'd be pulled to internalize a more anxious 119 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,919 Speaker 4: or avoidant attachment style. It sounds like an intersection of 120 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 4: your own disposition, just like how you came into the 121 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 4: world and the therapeutic work that you have done land 122 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 4: in you in a place of secure attachment at least 123 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 4: having the skill set to show up that way. But 124 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 4: under stress and dress, trauma returns. Trauma responses return sometimes 125 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 4: and we're much more vulnerable to show sort of immersed 126 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 4: in the old patterns that are rooted in trauma. And 127 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 4: so for you, I think both are true that you 128 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 4: can and are securely it can be and are a 129 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 4: securely attached person, but under stress and duress, that old 130 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 4: pull for those old patterns and the things that you 131 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 4: witnessed and saw might show up without you even realizing 132 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 4: it until to your point you're add a fight or flight. 133 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 4: You're odd of your nervous system being so activated that 134 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 4: you then have an opportunity to be outside of your 135 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 4: feelings versus in them. 136 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 2: I really appreciate that, doctor Hillary, because I was afraid 137 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 2: I was going to leave here today and you were 138 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 2: going to diagnose me with borderline personality disorder, severe depression, schizophrenia, 139 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 2: whatever is on the gambit. You know, because there are 140 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 2: times where I have felt like in and I know 141 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 2: this now through a lot, and I've done a lot 142 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 2: of trauma work in particular, that I have felt nuts. 143 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 2: And I do know that women of emotional abuse or 144 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 2: narcissistic abuse, we tend to look at us and go, Okay, 145 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 2: I'm crazy, something is wrong with me. I ended up 146 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 2: in therapy and I kept looking at my going, what's 147 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 2: wrong with me? I am crazy? There's something wrong here, 148 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 2: Please fix me. Something is wrong. And I've done enough 149 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 2: work to know that it's not always me. I'm not 150 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 2: saying that I didn't add too. I am not perfect 151 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,559 Speaker 2: by any means, but I do know that I don't 152 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 2: have to carry the responsibility of all of it anymore. 153 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 2: So I am joking when I say that that you 154 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 2: were going to leave here and tell everybody I'm famously available. 155 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 2: That I'm absolutely not tape. But there are pieces for 156 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:34,839 Speaker 2: me to carry. And that is why I have done 157 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 2: so much work and so much therapy on myself. Is 158 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 2: because my goal in life, my prayer to my higher 159 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 2: power is like I want to be a good woman. 160 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 2: I want to be a good mother and eventually a 161 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 2: good partner like I do really want that. I do 162 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 2: really want a great, great love. And the other big piece, 163 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 2: Chuctor Hillary, is I don't want to make the same 164 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 2: mistakes that I have made in the past. I don't 165 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 2: live a life of regret. I obviously have two really beautiful, 166 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 2: wonderful children. There is a reason my husband and I 167 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 2: came together and connected. Sometimes I have a really hard 168 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 2: time finding those but I have two wonderful children. There 169 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 2: is a purpose in life that he and I were 170 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:26,319 Speaker 2: supposed to be together. We were supposed to have these 171 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 2: really great children. And I just believe that there is 172 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 2: something guiding me to different things, and in order to 173 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 2: get to those things, I am a constant work on 174 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 2: myself and refinement because that is the truth. I want 175 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 2: to be better, I want to be healthier. I don't 176 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 2: want to make the same mistakes. I do not want 177 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,439 Speaker 2: to dismiss the same red flags and a relationship. 178 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 3: Ever again, yes, I mean it is. 179 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 4: It may seem paradoxical, but it's a very empowering stance 180 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 4: that you're describing, which is acknowledging that every dynamic is 181 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:01,239 Speaker 4: co created, right, every dynastic, even if all we contributed, 182 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 4: I'm putting, like all we contributed quotes is to stay 183 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,439 Speaker 4: longer than we should have. Right, even if that's it, 184 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 4: that's still a dynamic that we bring. Yes, And so 185 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 4: in your circumstance, when a relationship is painful and high 186 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 4: conflict and we have resentment and the history of toxicity, 187 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 4: being able to understand what your part is and what 188 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 4: you created is critical. 189 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 3: It's not about blame or shame. 190 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 4: It's about empowerment and self reflection and understanding. So I 191 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 4: really like the way that you're talking about it, and 192 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 4: the really nice thing about where you've arrived. And I 193 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 4: highlighted this earlier, but I think it's so important. It's 194 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 4: one of the keys in my view to psychological health, 195 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 4: which is the ability to be inside the feeling or 196 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 4: outside the feeling. And when you're looking at your therapists 197 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 4: and saying, what's wrong with me? 198 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 3: Why did I do that? Why did I say that? 199 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 3: What did I show up that way? 200 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 4: If that's part of what you were conveying, that's you 201 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 4: at that moment inside the feeling. Right, we're angry, we're 202 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 4: we're resent full, we're sad, depressed, whatever the thing is, 203 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 4: we're ashamed, and we show up embodying the feeling. And 204 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 4: when we're in the feeling, it's really hard to make choices. 205 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 4: It's really hard to feel like we have a bunch 206 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 4: of options in terms of how we can show up. 207 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 4: We're just operating from the feeling, and often that's anger, 208 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 4: and then later we may have regretted about how we 209 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 4: showed up the skill of being able to be outside 210 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 4: the feeling, meaning looking at it, acknowledging it, talking about it, 211 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 4: advocating around it. So that doesn't mean we don't say 212 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 4: I don't like the way you're talking to me, I 213 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 4: don't like the way you're treating me. I won't let 214 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:36,599 Speaker 4: you speak to me that way. Right, that's advocacy versus aggression. 215 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 4: So the minute we're outside the feeling, we have all 216 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 4: sorts of choices about how we want to show up 217 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 4: and how we want to communicate, what we need, what 218 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 4: we want, how we want to set boundaries. Inside the feeling, 219 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 4: we almost have no choices other than being led by 220 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 4: this feeling that we don't have any say in. And 221 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 4: so I really like to talk about this difference is 222 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 4: to nuance. But once you deeply understand it and you 223 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 4: have the goal to recognize when you're in and when 224 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 4: you're out. 225 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 3: When you're in, you. 226 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 4: Can take a pause, you can take a break, you 227 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 4: can come back later after resetting, because we know when 228 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 4: we're in the feeling, we don't usually get anywhere that 229 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 4: feels good. And then we we're outside of the feeling, 230 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 4: we can make a plan for what we want to 231 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 4: do on our own behalf. 232 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 2: Gosh, you said so many nuggets of truth. I have 233 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 2: forgotten at times that we're recording a podcast because I 234 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 2: love therapy. I love therapy, I love the deep dive. 235 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 2: I love to take a hard look at me and 236 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 2: work on the things that I need to work on. 237 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 2: And what came to mind for me when you just 238 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 2: said that is that I have a real problem with perfectionism, 239 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:53,479 Speaker 2: and I don't like for people to view me as 240 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 2: and I'll share some of the words that have been 241 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 2: used against me right difficult that I'm too difficult to 242 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 2: let you know in moments of pain where I didn't 243 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 2: feel like I could stand up for myself because I 244 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 2: didn't want to be too difficult. It was too difficult 245 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 2: to be loved in my marriage because I had an opinion. 246 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that I always went about my 247 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 2: opinion in the best way. I am a very strong personality. 248 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 2: I am very very passionate about the things that I 249 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 2: do believe in, and I have a real problem with 250 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 2: expecting people to be like me. Like, just to put 251 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 2: it in the dumbest terms, yeah possible. I love really hard. 252 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 2: I am loyal to a fault to myself, a detriment 253 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 2: to myself. I am that loyal. I will go to 254 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 2: the grave for the people that I love. My biggest 255 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 2: moments of joy and happiness was when I was together 256 00:13:57,520 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 2: with my ex husband and his family, and we were 257 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 2: together and enjoyful and laughing, and at times I chose 258 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 2: them over my own family. I am loyal to a 259 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 2: fault to myself, and what has been really difficult for me, 260 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 2: and a learning experience is that I expected others to 261 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 2: be that way because I was that way. I what's 262 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 2: it called when you put it on someone else? Yes, 263 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 2: I projected that. I projected that I wanted the people 264 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 2: around me to love me and choose me because I 265 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 2: did it at all costs to detriment to myself. And 266 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 2: then when I was viewed as being too difficult or 267 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 2: too challenging to love, I was too scared to speak 268 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 2: up for what I thought was right or my opinion 269 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 2: because I didn't want to be dubbed too difficult, too challenging. 270 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 2: Because there is a lot of beauty in those things. 271 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 2: I am not one to sweep under the rug and 272 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 2: pretend like it's perfect. I'm just not. That's not how 273 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 2: I live life. So in general, for any man that 274 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 2: wants to to jump into a relationship with me or 275 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 2: a dating scenario, that's not who I am. Life to 276 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 2: me is not perfect, and I deal with hard things 277 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 2: and I am willing to face them head on. But 278 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 2: I am not a person who can pretend that hard 279 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 2: things don't happen. HAVE been through a lot of hard 280 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 2: things in my life. I have had to endure some 281 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 2: really difficult things, and it does me personally a disservice 282 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 2: to stuff those I am not a stuffer. I cannot 283 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 2: function that way. But I share all of this with 284 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 2: you because I guess I'm looking for advice when it 285 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 2: comes to relationships and the deepness that I crave. I 286 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 2: do not do surface level well. I am a deep 287 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 2: lover in all relationships and all capacity of my life. 288 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 2: I need that deep connection, that is what I need. 289 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 2: I tend to project that on the other people around 290 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 2: me because I want them to love like I do. 291 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 2: And the truth is not everyone is capable of that. 292 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 2: So I think what I am asking you is, with 293 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 2: that little nuggative truth, what do I do in that scenario? 294 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 2: What am I choosing wrong? Is my picker off? Is 295 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 2: that what's wrong here? 296 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 4: You know? 297 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 3: Maybe maybe not. 298 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 4: I think there's sort of a macro theme here and 299 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 4: then like in the weeds of being in a real 300 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 4: relationship and what it's like to show up when you 301 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 4: have conflict or misalignment. So on a macro basis, it 302 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 4: seems like you need to find someone who is interested 303 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 4: in that kind of growth, that kind of expansion, that 304 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 4: a thematic notion of like I'm a person who likes 305 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 4: to think about things, process things, and I consider it 306 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 4: intimate to work through conflict with my partner, Like you 307 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 4: should find someone who has an interest around that, a 308 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 4: language around that, an ability. 309 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 3: To do that. 310 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 2: You were doctor Hillary, I should. 311 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 4: Well, I mean, because I mean look at if we 312 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 4: get unemotional about it an objective. We can even say 313 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 4: that it's not about right or wrong or good or bad. 314 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,719 Speaker 4: Maybe your way isn't right and another guy's way of 315 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 4: like I don't like to do those things. I like 316 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 4: to kind of skate on the surface. We don't have 317 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 4: to call it right or wrong, but they should be 318 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 4: somewhat aligned. You should have sort of a mutual goal 319 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 4: of like, yes, that's something, that's a language I'm interested in, 320 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 4: that's something I'm looking for. Is that kind of depth, 321 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 4: that kind of intimacy, that kind of passion, Because certainly, 322 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,919 Speaker 4: in my experience from a clinical standpoint, when you have 323 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 4: a relationship that that includes those aspects, it's intimacy building. 324 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 4: It's bonding to be able to work through hard things 325 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 4: and share vulnerable feelings and get to know your partners 326 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 4: like pain points and care about them. Not everyone wants 327 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 4: to have relationships like that. But if you do, you 328 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 4: want at least find someone that's up for that or 329 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 4: interested in it. 330 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 2: Man, I'm going to reapt you real quick because I 331 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 2: like that that's the way that you labeled it, and 332 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 2: I just have this like epiphany believe that is what 333 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 2: I crave, is the emotional intimacy in a relationship. And 334 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 2: I've never used those words to describe it that way, 335 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 2: but I think you hit the nail on the head. 336 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 2: That's what I want. I want emotional intimacy. 337 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 4: People don't often conceptualize working through conflict and difficulty as that, 338 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 4: but as a couple's therapist, when you guide and support 339 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,360 Speaker 4: couples to work through hard things in like a caring, 340 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 4: invested way, even when it's conflictual and painful, when they 341 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 4: come out the other end, it's intimacy building, it's bonding, 342 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 4: and it's lovely. I mean, that kind of depth can 343 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 4: be reached myriad of ways, but that's certainly one of them. 344 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 4: And if that resonates with you, it's good to know, 345 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 4: and it's a good way to be able to talk 346 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 4: about it and like put words to it when you 347 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 4: get into that relationship, when you have a candidate that's 348 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 4: at least somewhere like in the ballpark of interest and 349 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 4: emotional intimacy a couple of things one and you already 350 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 4: acknowledge this. It doesn't have to look like your version 351 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 4: of emotional intimacy. You have to broker something that mutually resonates, right, 352 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 4: And we'll get into that. But it's a good thing 353 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 4: to know about yourself that if you look for it 354 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 4: to be exactly like how you do it, that might 355 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 4: get you in trouble because people have different ways to 356 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 4: get there and different needs to have and seek support 357 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 4: to get there, and so the goal of emotional intimacy 358 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 4: can be reached a plethora of ways, and so being 359 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 4: open to how you get there versus how a partner 360 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 4: gets there and kind of co creating something that works 361 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 4: for both. And I want to say this to allude 362 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 4: to some of the things you brought up, which is 363 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 4: that you know it's all in my view about the messaging, right, 364 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:48,439 Speaker 4: and so your interest in not sweeping things under the 365 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 4: rug and calling things out and being truthful about your 366 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 4: emotions and a relationship, I think is an appropriate way 367 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 4: to move through relationships in general. Unless two people agree 368 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 4: like that's just not how we're going to do it, 369 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 4: and that's good for us. But in general, that is 370 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,239 Speaker 4: my recommendation because the more we suppress, the more we 371 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 4: have symptoms, and symptoms in a relationship look like disconnection, 372 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 4: lack of intimacy, agitation, irritation, disconnection, all the things right, 373 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 4: And so the more we suppress, there. 374 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 3: Is going to be emotional rent to pay it. 375 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 2: Just this. 376 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 4: And so if you suppress, like it sounds like you 377 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 4: did at some point in your previous relationship. 378 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 2: I never never suppressed. Maybe that's wrong. 379 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 4: Well it comes out some other way. So either you're 380 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 4: you're not curating how you're you're communicating it and it's 381 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 4: hard to digest, or one is suppressing and there's symptoms 382 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 4: that arise. 383 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 3: So you have to figure out. 384 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 4: A delivery system that works right, that is that is 385 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,919 Speaker 4: digestible to the other. And I think that's where we 386 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 4: can get creative and have a lot of growth. Is 387 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 4: that I often say in my own relationships with my 388 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 4: own young children, you know my message is on point, 389 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 4: you know my delivery might have been off that time, right, 390 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 4: And so the message is something we want to be 391 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 4: deeply you know, committed to invested in precious sacred with right, 392 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,439 Speaker 4: but how we deliver it. We should co create what 393 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 4: works for our partner. Is there a certain tone that 394 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 4: doesn't feel supportive? Is there a certain time of day 395 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 4: that feels like it's too overwhelming? Is there a way 396 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,959 Speaker 4: to move into a conversation about someone like asking them 397 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 4: if they're available for a hard time that gets them 398 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 4: more grounded? 399 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:34,360 Speaker 3: Right? 400 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 4: That we should try to broker and negotiate. How do 401 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 4: you want to have a conversation that's tricky? And that 402 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,360 Speaker 4: doesn't mean we adhere to everything our partner asks for 403 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 4: and barry who we are, but we should be in 404 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,479 Speaker 4: the business of like brokering, negotiating and co creating something 405 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 4: that works. And in the absence of that, I often 406 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 4: see couples sort of like, you know, intense misalignment. They're 407 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 4: just like missing each other constantly because the delivery system 408 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 4: that tell them the words, the approach that they're using 409 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 4: to communicate what's happening with them is not resonant, is 410 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 4: not digestible. 411 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: It's been jumping back in here. This conversation with doctor 412 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 1: Hillary and Deanna is getting really good. But I think 413 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: this is the perfect place for us to take a 414 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 1: pause and we'll come back for more very soon.