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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. It is Saturday, so we have a

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Speaker 1: vault episode for you. This is going to be The

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Speaker 1: Hogs of Hell Part two. It originally published ten twenty nine,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. Let's jump right in. And Arthur went

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Speaker 1: as far as esquier Orvo in Ireland, to the place

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Speaker 1: where the boar Troweth was with his seven young pigs,

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Speaker 1: and the dogs were let loose upon him from all sides.

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Speaker 1: That day until evening, the Irish fought with him. Nevertheless,

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Speaker 1: he laid waste the fifth part of Ireland. And on

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Speaker 1: the day following the household of Arthur fought with him,

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Speaker 1: and they were worsted by him and got no advantage.

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Speaker 1: And the third day Arthur himself encountered him, and he

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Speaker 1: fought with him nine nights and nine days, without so

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Speaker 1: much as killing even one little pig. The warriors inquired

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Speaker 1: of Arthur what was the origin of that swine, and

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Speaker 1: he told them that he was once a king, and

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Speaker 1: that God had transformed him into a swine for his sins.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert.

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Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with

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Speaker 3: part two in our Halloween season series called Hogs of Hell.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: In the previous episode, we focused mostly on mythology and fiction,

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Speaker 3: looking at a glorious assortment of monster pigs, beelze bores,

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Speaker 3: and also a few rather benevolent divine suiform beings of

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Speaker 3: various types. So in terms of specific examples, we talked

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Speaker 3: about everything from the vicious, shaggy, froth jawed Aromanthian boar

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Speaker 3: which was captured by Hercules in Greek myth to the

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Speaker 3: noble and heroic pig featured incarnation of the Hindu god

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Speaker 3: vision Sew, who retrieves the earth when it is rolled

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Speaker 3: up and stolen away to the ocean depths by a

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Speaker 3: great demon. And here we are again today to keep

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Speaker 3: the monster pig parade on the March.

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Speaker 1: And indeed, in the last episode we did talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about King Arthur battling various bores across the

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Speaker 1: British Isle, so I wanted to at the top of

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Speaker 1: this episode throwing just a little quote that gives you

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Speaker 1: a taste of that, though it doesn't really reference all

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Speaker 1: the gorings that also take place.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I like how it says the warriors were like, hey, Arthur,

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Speaker 3: we've been fighting this pig and it's worsting us. I

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Speaker 3: don't know if it was like different than being bested

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Speaker 3: by a pig, to be worsted by a pig, but

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Speaker 3: it's besting all the nights. And they're like, Arthur, where

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Speaker 3: did this pig come from? And Arthur is like, well,

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Speaker 3: this pig was once a king, but he was a

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Speaker 3: bad king, not like me.

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Speaker 1: I have to question his management style a little bit

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Speaker 1: for not like fully briefing everyone on the nature of

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Speaker 1: these boors. Was he just like, Hey, we're gonna go

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Speaker 1: wage war against pigs for a few months here, and

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Speaker 1: they're like, okay, sure, that sounds like a reasonable thing

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Speaker 1: to do.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, why not? Anyway, I wanted to kick things off

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Speaker 3: today by turning to the world of palaeontology, because it

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Speaker 3: so happens. You do not have to go into mythology

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Speaker 3: and fiction to meet some blood curdling monster pigs or perhaps,

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Speaker 3: to be more accurate, maybe not pigs but blood curdling

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Speaker 3: monster hoofed mammals with some pig like features. Well, hash

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Speaker 3: out what's really a pig? And what's not as we

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Speaker 3: go along. But the point is, if you go back

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Speaker 3: maybe twenty thirty million years into the fossil record, you

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Speaker 3: will encounter a branch of the mammal family tree that

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Speaker 3: has been affectionately nicknamed the hell pigs and perhaps less tastefully,

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Speaker 3: the terminator pigs. That's got to be a subsequent nickname there.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, I don't know how clinical that is.

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Speaker 3: Now. Hell pigs is just a cute name that has

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Speaker 3: been used in popular media. I found earlier sources from

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Speaker 3: the nineteen twenties which refer to the same class of

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Speaker 3: animals by calling them giant pigs. In scientific nomenclature, these

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Speaker 3: creatures we're going to be talking about are called antilodonts

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Speaker 3: e nte l odnt intilodonts. They belong to the family Intilodontidy,

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Speaker 3: which is now completely extinct. The family name comes from

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Speaker 3: the Greek intellus, meaning complete or perfect, and odon, meaning tooth,

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Speaker 3: so the antilodont is the beast of the perfect tooth,

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Speaker 3: or the beast of the complete tooth. The antilodont family

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Speaker 3: is a member of the order Arteodactyla, which for much

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Speaker 3: of scientific history were known as the even toed ungulates

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Speaker 3: ungulates meaning a hoofed animal even toad ungilates, referring to

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Speaker 3: the fact that most branches of this order bear their

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Speaker 3: weight primarily on two toes per foot. Now, despite the

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Speaker 3: historical classification based on this feature, more recent research has

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Speaker 3: shown that not all of the animals in this branch

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Speaker 3: of mammalia are actually ungulates or hoofed animals as traditionally understood.

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Speaker 3: So Ardiodactyls today consist of more well known ungulates like deer, bison, cattle, sheep,

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Speaker 3: and goats, but also camels, pigs, giraffes, hippopotamuses, and maybe

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Speaker 3: most surprisingly, whales and dolphins, because remember, whales evolved from

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Speaker 3: animals that used to live entirely on land and millions

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Speaker 3: of years ago, made the gradual adaptive transition to more

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Speaker 3: and more water based lifestyle and physiology over time, until

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Speaker 3: eventually they were fully water dwelling creatures. Having come, you

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Speaker 3: began as fish, moved onto the land, become mammals, and

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Speaker 3: then moved back into the water.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, quite a journey.

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Speaker 3: In telodonts, the so called hell pigs first show up

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Speaker 3: in the fossil reccred sometime in the middle of the

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Speaker 3: Eocene epoch, which began roughly fifty five million years ago,

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Speaker 3: placing it about ten million years after the extinction of

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Speaker 3: the non avian dinosaurs, and continued until about thirty four

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Speaker 3: million years ago. I don't know if this has been

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Speaker 3: superseded by any more recent fossil finds, but at least

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Speaker 3: for a while, it was thought that antilodonts first appeared

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Speaker 3: in the area that is now Mongolia and then spread

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Speaker 3: across the globe. First spread across much of Asia and

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Speaker 3: then to North America and Europe as well, and numerous

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Speaker 3: species of antilodonts thrived during the Oligocene epic, and then

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Speaker 3: they appeared to have died out in the early Miocene

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Speaker 3: between nineteen and sixteen million years ago. So one thing

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Speaker 3: that's worth emphasizing is that we're not talking about one

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Speaker 3: specific species of animal. We're talking about this family. So

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Speaker 3: there were many different species of antilodonts. The largest were

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Speaker 3: probably according to now I've come across different estimates here.

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Speaker 3: According to the estimate given by Encyclopedia Britannica, they could

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Speaker 3: maybe get nine hundred kilograms. Britannica compares this to a

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Speaker 3: Clydesdale horse, so you can picture giant fanged pigs pulling

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Speaker 3: the Budweiser wagon. The largest known genus of Antilodont is

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Speaker 3: confusingly known by several different names, primarily Dinohias di n

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Speaker 3: o h y us, which means terrible pig or monstrous

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Speaker 3: pig from the same formation that you get dinosaur, you know,

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Speaker 3: terrible reptile, but then also is known as Deodon daeod

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Speaker 3: n which means hostile tooth. It took me a while

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Speaker 3: to figure out what was going on here, but it

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Speaker 3: seems that the type species in question here is known

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Speaker 3: as either Dinohias hollandi or Diodon shoshonensis, and these are

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Speaker 3: designations based on different fossil finds, but I think most

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Speaker 3: experts agree that they refer to the animals. So Dinohias

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Speaker 3: hollandy is a full skeleton found at Agate Spring's Fossil

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Speaker 3: Quarry in Nebraska, whereas Diodon was a genus that was

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Speaker 3: established earlier on the basis of less complete fossil remains.

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Speaker 3: So it gets kind of confusing because you will find

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Speaker 3: references to both names used separately in different sources. But

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Speaker 3: as best I can tell, these are probably the same

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Speaker 3: genus or the same species, whatever you call them, Diodon

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Speaker 3: or Dinohias. These animals were magnificent, with huge, devastating, awe

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Speaker 3: inspiring skulls and rob I have attached some images for

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Speaker 3: you to look at in the outline here, folks at home,

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Speaker 3: if you want to try to google a Dinohias or

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Speaker 3: Diodon skull, you can do that yourself, but I'll for

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Speaker 3: the people who can't look it up, I will describe

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Speaker 3: it as best I can. For the full skeleton, imagine

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Speaker 3: a body that looks kind of like a buffalo or

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Speaker 3: a rhinoceros, with raised neural fines over the backbone at

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Speaker 3: the shoulder, kind of like a suspension bridge, implying this

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Speaker 3: massive shoulder hump at the base of the neck to

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Speaker 3: hold up an enormous head. And it did have an

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Speaker 3: enormous head, the huge, deep, powerful jaws under a long

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Speaker 3: snout with canines that somehow look like both sharpened fangs

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Speaker 3: and crushingly thick blunt bats at the same time. The

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Speaker 3: skull could be huge, could be up to ninety centimeters long,

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Speaker 3: or about thirty five or maybe even forty five percent

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Speaker 3: of the total body length. So this is a big,

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Speaker 3: powerful animal with a big, powerful skull a crushing bite.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you almost get the sense of it

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Speaker 1: being like the combination of a of a bear and

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Speaker 1: a horse. You know, it's kind of like the fierceness

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Speaker 1: of a bear skull, but far like thicker and longer.

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Speaker 3: We're gonna have to keep all of the different cross

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Speaker 3: between analogies going. There will be a number of them

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Speaker 3: as we go through. But one thing I wanted to

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Speaker 3: point out for you, Rob is if you look around

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Speaker 3: on the skull of this animal, you will see not

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Speaker 3: just teeth, but these strange little solid knobs of bone

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Speaker 3: poking out at several places from the bone of the skull.

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Speaker 3: So they're not teeth, they're like say along the bottom

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Speaker 3: of the jaw, under the lower jawbone, or behind the eye.

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Speaker 3: On the upper part of the skull, they will have

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Speaker 3: these protrusions. They just like parts of the bone that

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Speaker 3: stick out, almost as if they're like, you know, something's

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Speaker 3: going to be hanging from them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I was thinking it's almost like the animal's head is

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Speaker 3: like a rock climbing wall. It's got little, you know,

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Speaker 3: handholds and stuff on it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of nooks and crannies.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and so these protruding bone formations may have had

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Speaker 3: a couple of different purposes, perhaps defensive in nature, but

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Speaker 3: also possibly related to increasing the power of muscles that

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Speaker 3: worked the jaw and the head. Again, this creature had

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Speaker 3: a powerful bite. It could chew you up and maybe

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Speaker 3: bite you in half. So the daton would have stood

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Speaker 3: probably a little under two meters tall at the shoulder.

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Speaker 3: I already gave one weight estimate earlier, the nine hundred kilograms.

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Speaker 3: It's not known for sure how much mass would have

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Speaker 3: attached to the skeleton, but even if you go down

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Speaker 3: from the nine hundred kilograms estimate that they cite in Britannica,

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Speaker 3: other sources guests around seven hundred and fifty kilograms, And

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Speaker 3: for comparison, that is bigger than most estimates you get

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Speaker 3: for adult male brown bears. So, whether you're in the

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Speaker 3: Clydesdale territory or just like surpassing the large brown bear class,

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Speaker 3: it should put respect for nature's power into your brain

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Speaker 3: and in dear blood. Here and at the same time

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Speaker 3: that you're looking at this skull, if you go back

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Speaker 3: and look at the legs, they don't look like something

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Speaker 3: that really fits with the skull. This is a hoofed mammal,

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Speaker 3: and the legs actually appear fairly slender. And so the

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Speaker 3: pairing of this amazing, frightening skull and mouth with the

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Speaker 3: fact that its feet are hooved and that its legs

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Speaker 3: almost look kind of like deer legs or something something

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Speaker 3: we associate with prey animals, animals that humans hunt and

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Speaker 3: eat or domesticate and use for milk and work. The

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Speaker 3: feet and the legs do not look like those of

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Speaker 3: wild beasts that could probably chomp us in half. So

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Speaker 3: should we think of in telodonts as predators? We can

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Speaker 3: come back to that question now to pivot a bit

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Speaker 3: and go on a short tangent away from the overtly

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Speaker 3: crushingly horrifying, I want to shift to the uncanny, the creepy,

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Speaker 3: the unwholesome and unnatural. So Rob, I've got a link

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Speaker 3: for you to look at here. I've also got an

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Speaker 3: image in the outline for you. Again, I will try

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Speaker 3: to describe for you folks at home so you can

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Speaker 3: picture it as well. But the thing we're about to

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Speaker 3: look at here is actually a sculpture. It is a

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Speaker 3: sculpture of the animal we have just been talking about,

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Speaker 3: and it is held in the collection of the Carnegie

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Speaker 3: Museum of Natural History. You can find a picture of

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Speaker 3: it easily if you search for Carnegie din Ohias. I

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Speaker 3: want to give a shout out that I found out

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Speaker 3: about this sculpture by reading a Carnegie Museum blog post

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Speaker 3: from January twenty nineteen by a collection assistant for the

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Speaker 3: section of Vertebrate Paleontology named Joe Sauchak. So this sculpture

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Speaker 3: was created in nineteen oh nine by an American artist

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Speaker 3: named Theodore Augustus Mills, who lived from eighteen thirty nine

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Speaker 3: to nineteen sixteen. Mills worked for a number of institutions,

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Speaker 3: including the Smithsonian and the Carnegie Museum, and was the

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Speaker 3: son of sculptor Clark Mills, who famously made a cast

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Speaker 3: of the face of President Abraham Lincoln in eighteen sixty five,

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Speaker 3: which a younger Theodore assisted with. But this din Ohias

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Speaker 3: sculpture is perhaps an art movement unto itself. A Sawchak

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Speaker 3: writes that as a powerful and amazing as the Deodon

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Speaker 3: or Dinahias bones are quote to several members of the

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Speaker 3: Vertebrate Paleontology staff, including myself, the model lovingly known as

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Speaker 3: the highest is perhaps even more horrifying than the actual

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Speaker 3: creature itself. So Rob, I've got the photo in here

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Speaker 3: for you to look at, alongside a headshot of Peter Lorrie,

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Speaker 3: just for reference. And so the author of this blog

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Speaker 3: post tries to identify exactly what the museum staff finds

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Speaker 3: so creepy and fascinating about the sculpture. He mentioned something

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Speaker 3: about the eyes that seems especially human and emotive. But

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Speaker 3: I do have to agree there is something really special

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Speaker 3: about this piece of three dimensional paleo art. It is

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Speaker 3: at once alien and disturbingly human. I think parts of

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Speaker 3: it are hitting Uncanny Valley territory because we're getting sort

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Speaker 3: of like a pig, giant pig horse with human eyes energy.

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Speaker 3: But also it looks like it's about to tell me something,

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Speaker 3: like it's about to tell me a secret, and it's

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Speaker 3: a secret I don't want to know, and it's grinning

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Speaker 3: because it knows that I don't want to know.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean, it's definitely looking at me. It's

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Speaker 1: definitely looking at me. I feel like, to some degree

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Speaker 1: judging me, but judging me fairly, judging like it is

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Speaker 1: making a fair assessment of me. And yes, to your point,

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Speaker 1: perhaps I don't really want to hear it, but maybe

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Speaker 1: I do want to hear it. Maybe what this creature

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Speaker 1: has to share with me will bring a lot of

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Speaker 1: positive change into my life.

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Speaker 3: Oh okay, well I like the open mindedness with which

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Speaker 3: you're approaching this creature.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Maybe maybe the thing, the secret that is going to

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Speaker 3: share is actually great wisdom. It's wisdom you need and

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Speaker 3: you just aren't ready to accept.

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Speaker 1: But I do not get the sense that it wants

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Speaker 1: to eat me. I get the sense that it is

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Speaker 1: a bit more benign when it comes to matters of

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Speaker 1: the flesh.

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Speaker 3: It's really funny to me how much this paleo art image,

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Speaker 3: with the you know, the fully concer diructed image, with

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Speaker 3: its kind of serene, placid eyes gazing into your mind

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Speaker 3: and maybe hypnotizing you maybe you're about to do some

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Speaker 3: scanners stuff on you, how much that does not comport

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Speaker 3: with the just the fierceness suggested by the bones.

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Speaker 1: This is often the case, though, isn't it. I mean

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Speaker 1: one of the prime exit I mean, the main prime

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Speaker 1: example here would of course be the human skull. You

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Speaker 1: get a totally different vibe looking at a human skull,

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Speaker 1: looking at a human face. But you know, that's almost

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Speaker 1: to be expected because you also have to confront a

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Speaker 1: lot about your own mortality. When you look at a

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Speaker 1: skull of a human. I think it's more pronounced when

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Speaker 1: you see I think that the other readily available example

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Speaker 1: is the skull of the horse. Like the horse is

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Speaker 1: a domesticated animal that many judge to be you know,

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Speaker 1: basically in the same realm as that of the dog

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Speaker 1: in terms of human animal relationships. You know, it is

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Speaker 1: an animal that is very close to us, and ultimately

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Speaker 1: there's a strong case to be made that it's it's

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Speaker 1: more essential to the development of human civilization than anything

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Speaker 1: any other animal that we've domesticated. But while we look

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Speaker 1: at a horse, you know, we tend to see something again,

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Speaker 1: more benign, a friend of humanity, something noble and proud,

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Speaker 1: beautiful even, But you look at the skull of the

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Speaker 1: horse and you get this sense of kind of a

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Speaker 1: grinning demon. And people have, you know, had I think,

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Speaker 1: similar connections with the skull of the horse for ages,

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Speaker 1: you know, often incorporating it into designs of supernatural beings,

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Speaker 1: or utilizing the horse skull in some way that is

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Speaker 1: you know, magical, perhaps protective magic and so forth. And

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I guess maybe it is easy to

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Speaker 1: lose sight of that when you're dealing with the skeletal

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Speaker 1: remains of a prehistoric organism in which we don't know

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Speaker 1: what the fleshed version of the face looked like. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And this is a great reminder of something we've

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Speaker 3: talked about on the show before about how you know

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Speaker 3: paleo art is necessarily to some extent and interpretive enterprise.

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Speaker 3: In some cases you have more than just the bones,

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Speaker 3: But in a lot of cases you just have fossils,

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Speaker 3: maybe not even a complete skeleton. But you know, even

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Speaker 3: if you do have a complete near complete fossil skeleton,

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Speaker 3: that doesn't necessarily tell you what the soft tissue looked

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Speaker 3: like on the outside. So you know, you can have

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Speaker 3: ways of informing the guesses made like paleo art can

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Speaker 3: be informed by scientific knowledge, but you're still having to

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Speaker 3: make some guesses. You're having to make some leaps.

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Speaker 1: Didn't we discuss my memories a little foggy on this,

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Speaker 1: But didn't we discuss some examples of like intentionally bad

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Speaker 1: paleo art reconstructing existing organisms like living organisms.

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Speaker 3: I think I recall what you're talking about, and I

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Speaker 3: think we were talking about the quote shrink wrapping phenomenon

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Speaker 3: where it's like a lot of extinct animals or just

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Speaker 3: you take the bones and then you imagine skin tightly

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Speaker 3: wrapped around those bones and cutting out a lot of

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Speaker 3: the kind of bulk or soft tissue that you actually

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Speaker 3: see on some animals. And so yeah, I think the

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Speaker 3: idea was taking the skeletons of animals we know today

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Speaker 3: and cutting out all of the excess soft tissue and

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Speaker 3: just shrink wrapping them.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I think that that is what I was thinking of.

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Speaker 1: But it's easy to take that idea of the shrink wrapping.

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Speaker 1: Look at say a horse skeleton, and then imagine like

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Speaker 1: the shrink wrapped paleo art version of an extant horse.

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Speaker 1: You know, it would be this nightmare steed, you know.

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Speaker 1: And I mean you could apply something similar to humans.

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Speaker 1: We would all look like some sort of a ghoule. Right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, anyway, I do want to admit that, you know,

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Speaker 3: I don't have enough expertise in the anatomy or physiology

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Speaker 3: of these extinct mammals to judge whether the Carnegie the

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Speaker 3: Carnegie Museum statue is I don't know is anywhere close

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Speaker 3: to right or not, But there is one one thing

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Speaker 3: that I thought was interesting about it, which is that

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Speaker 3: the overly human eyes do kind of connect to an

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Speaker 3: interesting scientific fact about the antilodonts, which is that they

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Speaker 3: had more forward facing eye placement than a lot of ardiodactyls,

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Speaker 3: which raises questions about their survival strategies. On a lot

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Speaker 3: of hoofed mammals, you will see the eyes the eyes

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Speaker 3: spread more to the sides, which does that can be helpful,

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Speaker 3: especially to prey animals, because it gives them a wider

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Speaker 3: field of vision, so it's easier for them to see

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Speaker 3: predators approaching. But the more forward shifted gaze of the

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Speaker 3: antilodonts suggests some other pressures in play. Oh and just

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Speaker 3: quickly for contrast on paleo art for these hellpigs, I

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Speaker 3: wanted to attach a couple more images for you to

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Speaker 3: look at. They both look pretty interesting. One is one

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Speaker 3: I've just seen floating around the Internet sit at a

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Speaker 3: few different times. One is I think seemingly associated with

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Speaker 3: the Encyclopedia Britannica resources And that one is funny to

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Speaker 3: me because it looks like a crocodile horse pig with

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Speaker 3: face spikes doing the meme troll face.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's very toothy. It looks like, how is

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Speaker 1: this mouth supposed to shut? It kind of implies an

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Speaker 1: organism that cannot close its mouth all the way. It

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Speaker 1: just has monster jaws.

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Speaker 3: Well that's another funny thing. Where so it looks hilarious

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Speaker 3: in the picture this way, because it looks like this

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Speaker 3: animal is laughing at me, laughing at my misfortune and grief.

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Speaker 3: But there is an interesting thing about these the antilidonts,

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Speaker 3: which is that they could apparently open their jaws extremely wide.

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Speaker 1: Well that makes me feel worse.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I wanted to come back to the question

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Speaker 3: are these animals really pigs? They have been called hell

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Speaker 3: pigs in popular media and books and articles, but apparently

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Speaker 3: this is probably not exactly accurate. Pigs, swine, and hogs

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Speaker 3: are animals that belong to the mammal family Suidy. And

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Speaker 3: while the antilodonts do share some morphological features in common

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Speaker 3: with pigs, like it's not hard to see with some

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Speaker 3: of these remains why someone would look at them and say, oh,

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Speaker 3: this is some type of giant pig, Like there are

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Speaker 3: pig like things about it, but more recent research has

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Speaker 3: shown that pigs are probably not the their closest relatives

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Speaker 3: in the ardiodactyl order, and in fact what their closest

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Speaker 3: relatives are is maybe even more interesting. So there have

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Speaker 3: been findings about this going back for years now. This

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Speaker 3: is not like a new discovery, but for an example

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Speaker 3: of a more recent paper supporting the division between antilodonts

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Speaker 3: and pigs, I came across This paper by Yang Yu, Hongyang,

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Speaker 3: Gao Chang Li, and Xijun Ni published in the Journal

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Speaker 3: of Systematic Paleontology in twenty twenty three, called a new

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Speaker 3: antilodont ardiodactyl Mammalia from the late scene of China and

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Speaker 3: its phylogenetic implications. This paper is a report on a

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Speaker 3: new genus and species of antilodontidy. This one is known

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Speaker 3: as Antilodontellus juliangi and it's and basically they say based

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Speaker 3: on finding remnants of the animal's lower jaw and then

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Speaker 3: comparing this animal to comparing this newly discovered antilodont to

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Speaker 3: other ardiodactyls, the authors conclude that the antilodonts are situated

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Speaker 3: within the clade Setancodonto morpha, which means that they are

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Speaker 3: quote more closely related to hippopotamus and cetaceans than to suena.

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Speaker 3: So the hell pigs are not pigs as we understand

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Speaker 3: them today, and are probably more distant cousins of pigs

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Speaker 3: and closer cousins of hippos and whales. So you have

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Speaker 3: this all inspiring body form in many ways rezen bling

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Speaker 3: a giant pig, but if you kind of crossed it

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Speaker 3: with a horse and a bison and one of the

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Speaker 3: monsters from Doom, and in fact it is more closely

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Speaker 3: related to hippos and whales.

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Speaker 1: All right, the Doom creature in that like that pink guy,

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Speaker 1: that big pink one with oh it's.

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Speaker 3: Gotta be yeah, yeah, yeah, they had the invisible forms

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I believe that's the one, all right, all right,

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Speaker 1: So what we're we have here is maybe less of

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Speaker 1: a hell pig and more of a hell land whale

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Speaker 1: or hell hippo, or at least a cousin of those. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Another scientific paper I was reading, one by Florent

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Speaker 3: rivals at All, described these animals morphologically as a cross

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Speaker 3: between a hippopotamus a giant pig and a carnivore. But

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Speaker 3: the hippopotamus connection is interesting because of that anatomical fact

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Speaker 3: that these animals tend to have jaws so made that

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Speaker 3: they can they can open them unusually wide, like more

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Speaker 3: than a I think the figure was more than one

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Speaker 3: hundred degrees. They can open them so like hugely wide

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Speaker 3: opening of the jaws, and hippopotamuses can do that as well.

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Speaker 3: Hippopotamuses famously have an extremely lethal and powerful closing bite.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they have a very dangerous animal in the wild.

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Speaker 3: So this brings us to the question of what did

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Speaker 3: these antilodonts eat, what and how did they eat? Antilodonts

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Speaker 3: are apparently different from a lot of other ungulates in

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Speaker 3: that their skull and jaw structure is in some ways

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Speaker 3: more like that of modern carnivores. Now, not in all ways,

430
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 3: but in some And it is worth noting that there

431
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 3: are no carnivorous hoofed mammals today, but there were hoofed

432
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 3: predators in the past. Could come back to this, but anyway,

433
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 3: if you compare the jaws of herbivorous hoofed mammals with

434
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 3: the jaws of carnivores, you will see some patterns. I mean,

435
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 3: different animals will have some idiosyncratic characteristics, but broad patterns

436
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 3: emerge in the teeth and the jaw shape. Carnivores often

437
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 3: need to have big skulls with powerful jaw muscles to

438
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 3: deliver a strong bite force, because they use their jaws

439
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:16,199
Speaker 3: not just for chewing, but specifically for biting, to injure

440
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 3: and kill prey with the bite, and sometimes to fight

441
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 3: with each other. Herbivores not so much. Herbivores more often

442
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 3: have rows of flat teeth and jaws that are specialized

443
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 3: to move side to side for grinding down plant matter

444
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 3: between the molars. Carnivores tend to have sharp incisors in

445
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 3: the front of the mouth and jaws that primarily move

446
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 3: up and down, sort of less grinding oriented. Carnivores more

447
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 3: often have a jaw that hinges roughly in line with

448
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 3: the teeth, so it opens kind of like a claw.

449
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 3: Herbivores more often have an L shaped lower jaw that

450
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 3: hinges up above the teeth. So which of these patterns

451
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 3: do the antelodonts conform to? You know, if I had

452
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 3: looked at one of these daodon skulls with my untrained eye,

453
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 3: I would have guessed this was a fully carnivorous predator

454
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 3: if you look at the power of the jaw, the

455
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 3: shape of the front teeth, certainly the canines and incisors,

456
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 3: they look very sharp and threatening. They certainly seem like

457
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 3: meat eating predators on those counts. But the current consensus

458
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 3: of paleontologists seems to be that antilodonts had an omnivorous diet,

459
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 3: meaning they ate the whole buffet plants, animals, meat, vegetables,

460
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 3: whatever energy dense matter they could get into their mouths.

461
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 3: So one piece of evidence for this is the shape

462
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 3: of their molars and premolars. Antilodonts had what are called

463
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 3: bunadont teeth. This was a new term to me, I think,

464
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 3: but this means teeth with little hill shaped bumps on

465
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 3: the surface specialized for crushing a wide variety of foods.

466
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 3: So animals with bunadont teeth today include bears, pigs, and

467
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 3: some primates such as humans, all of which are omnivores.

468
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 3: There's also evidence from a number of other lines, things

469
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 3: like the wear patterns on fossil antilidont teeth. All these

470
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 3: tend to line up with an omnivorous diet, so it

471
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 3: seems they were likely eating from both the flora and

472
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 3: fauna all around them. And this is interesting because that

473
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 3: is also the case with modern pigs. Modern pigs you

474
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 3: don't usually think of as predators, but they will absolutely

475
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,479
Speaker 3: eat some meat if they can get their hands on it.

476
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 3: Wild pigs and feral bores and stuff will eat small animals,

477
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 3: But they also eat a lot of vegetables, you know.

478
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 3: And so they have this kind of combination of traits

479
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 3: in the jaws and the teeth that show that they're

480
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 3: specialized for both. Really, and one thing is very clear

481
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 3: from looking at their mouths. The teeth and jaws of

482
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 3: most of these animals were capable of eating very hard foods,

483
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 3: cracking and crushing their way through anything including roots, nuts,

484
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,719
Speaker 3: and of course plant matter, as well as meat and

485
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 3: possibly even bone. I found references to these animals possibly

486
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 3: being bone crushers in several sources. One al site is

487
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 3: the UCY Boulder Museum of Natural History in describing research

488
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 3: on a species of antilodont called Archaeotherium. This is an

489
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 3: extinct genus that once lived in the floodplains of North

490
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 3: America during the late Acene and the Oligocene and the

491
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 3: museum it compares the front teeth, the canines, the fangs

492
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 3: sort of of these animals to tusks and says that

493
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 3: you know, it may have been using these front teeth

494
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 3: to dig, essentially like to dig for tubers, to dig

495
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 3: for roots that it could eat. But they also have

496
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 3: evidence that this animal was into crushing bones with its teeth,

497
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 3: and they cite evidence of an ancient species of camel

498
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 3: called the Pobrotherium, which a bunch of the remains of

499
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 3: this camel were found in a fossil formation known as

500
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,719
Speaker 3: the White River formation in Wyoming, where it looks at

501
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 3: least like they were killed or eaten at least by

502
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 3: these archaeotherium. And there are punctures on the bones that

503
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 3: apparently match the premolars of the antilidont species. Scars found

504
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 3: on the bones of hell pigs suggest that these animals

505
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 3: fought each other as well, apparently biting at each other's

506
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 3: heads and faces, resulting in deep bone scars. And that,

507
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 3: remember we mentioned earlier on the skulls of these animals

508
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 3: the protrusions of bone jutting out of the jaw and

509
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,719
Speaker 3: then back behind the eyes they of course maybe an

510
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 3: anchor point for some of the facial musculature to help

511
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 3: the jaw operate the way it needs to, but as possible,

512
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 3: they also protected soft spots of antilidont faces during these

513
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 3: biting competitions to maybe protect the nose or the eyes,

514
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 3: And it does appear that these animals probably had a

515
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 3: strong sense of smell. Now there's another interesting question, which

516
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 3: is the debate about the meat that they likely ate.

517
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 3: So because there's this evidence in the way their bodies

518
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 3: are made, and of course in the remains of other

519
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 3: animals that antilodonts were running around eating meat, there is

520
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 3: of course a debate about how they got the meat

521
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 3: they ate to the extent that they ate meat in

522
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 3: their omnivorous diet. Were the antelodonts primarily active predators chasing

523
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 3: down in killing prey, or scavengers eating dead animals when

524
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 3: they came across them. And by the way, I think

525
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 3: it's worth noting that predation and scavenging are not mutually exclusive.

526
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 3: Most animals that engage in one will engage in the

527
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 3: other given the right opportunity. It's more a question of

528
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 3: specialization which they primarily do, and I've seen some paleo

529
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 3: experts comment that they think it quite possible that some

530
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 3: antilodonts would have been what you might call intimidation scavengers,

531
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 3: So to the extent that they were scavengers, it's possible

532
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 3: that some species would do this kind of activity where

533
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 3: you arrive at the site of a kill by another

534
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 3: predator and then you threaten and intimidate the original predator

535
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 3: into running away, and then the antilodont can steal the kill.

536
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 3: This is a strategy that some predators and scavengers employ today.

537
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 3: For example, a lion might wait for a cheetah to

538
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 3: chase down and kill an impala, and then the larger

539
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 3: lion comes and scares the cheetah away and takes the prey.

540
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 3: Now you might think, well, what if you're like a bigger,

541
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 3: more powerful predator, why wouldn't you just kill the prey

542
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 3: in the first place. But actually there are different specializations

543
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 3: in play. Like some predators might be faster moving and

544
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 3: easier to you know, it's easier for them to chase

545
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 3: prey that's actively trying to run away, whereas you might

546
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 3: not be as fast as the original predator. But the

547
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 3: original predator like can't drag its kill away fast enough

548
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 3: to get away from you if you're bigger and more powerful.

549
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, the former is a game of stealth. The latter

550
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: is holding down turf, stealing territory and defending it. Adding

551
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: into the fact that the actual predators that made the

552
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: initial kill might be rather extinguished by the hunt. So yeah,

553
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: it's a huge opportunity for something like that to move

554
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: in and take advantage of the situation. And of course

555
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: there are various other versions of this we've talked about

556
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: in the show before, some involving human beings getting in

557
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 1: there and getting at least a piece of the kill

558
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: and then making off with it from the original predators.

559
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I know that's come up in the show before,

560
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 3: about humans as intimidation scavengers.

561
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, some traditional human practices along those lines.

562
00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, so antilidants maybe not literally pigs, more pigs in

563
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 3: name only, but good enough as monster pigs for me.

564
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it sounds like weighing everything we've discussed here,

565
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 1: it's like, it sounds like still a very intimidating organism,

566
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: one that you would want to probably keep a healthy

567
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: distance from, even if it was looking at you with

568
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: those kind of sweet Peter Laurie eyes. I guess even

569
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 1: more so if it's looking directly at you with with

570
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 1: front facing Peter Laurie eyes.

571
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 3: I don't know why I'm not. I'm really not just

572
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 3: like playing it up for the show. Like I truly

573
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 3: am a little disturbed and unnerved by the idea of

574
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 3: being chased or preyed upon or threatened by a by

575
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 3: a toothy mammal that has hooves instead of paws and claws.

576
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, why do you Why do you think that is

577
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 1: what makes it worse than say, being hunted by a

578
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 1: great bear. I don't, which I find to be extremely terrifying.

579
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 3: Well, that is extremely terrifying, it is. I think it's

580
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 3: just that the hooves idea is it's unusual, like the

581
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 3: idea that you would you could like hear something that

582
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,240
Speaker 3: sounds like kind of hoof beats. I mean, it wouldn't

583
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 3: be exactly like horse hoof beats, because you know, they

584
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 3: have different types of hoofs, you know, it's the it's

585
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 3: the two toad ungulate. But it would still be basically

586
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 3: a hoofed animal would sound like a pig walking around,

587
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 3: except it could bite you in half. I don't know,

588
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 3: it's freaky.

589
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: Reminds me a bit. I'm reminded here two of our

590
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: discussions of the horse in the past was it was

591
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: it stories of Julius Caesar's horse having human feet or

592
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: tell feet.

593
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, maybe we'll have to rerun soon

594
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 3: our episodes on the evolution of horse hooves. I think

595
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,399
Speaker 3: this kind of ties in somehow. Yeah, that one had

596
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 3: the less frightening but still quite jarring idea that in

597
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 3: an evolutionary sense, horses are galloping around on their middle fingers.

598
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 1: Yes, they just have finger feet, yeah, but still, you know,

599
00:35:55,040 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: the basic idea of the hell hog here, the fossil evidence,

600
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,280
Speaker 1: I think does provide us with like a basic idea

601
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 1: of what some of these monster pigs might consist of.

602
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: You know, if they were a reality, Like if King

603
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: Arthur was actually battling a bunch of hell pigs that

604
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: used to be human kings they were too wicked to

605
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: remain in human form, Yeah, I could see it looking

606
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 1: something like this. You know, if the various other accounts

607
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: of monster pigs that we discussed, you know, if there

608
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: was some sort of primordial monster hog roaming the countryside, Yeah, yeah,

609
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 1: I could see it looking something like this, having eyes

610
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: like this even and maybe the eyes of the highest

611
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: that are disturbing because you can sort of imagine the

612
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: idea of, oh, this is like a human intellect staring

613
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 1: out at me through the body and the appetites of

614
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: a hellish pig.

615
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 3: This king he has remorse for his sins, for the

616
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,240
Speaker 3: sense he committed as king, and now he is doomed

617
00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 3: spend eternity in the Big Bone Room of the Carnegie Museum.

618
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 1: You know, two more cinematic connections to pigs and bores

619
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: that I want to mention here is because these might

620
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 1: be coming to mind for some of our listeners. First

621
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 1: of all, Wizard of oz Uh, there is the scene

622
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: where Dorothy almost falls in or does fall into the

623
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 1: pig pen, and there is concern that Dorothy is about

624
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 1: to be eaten by pigs.

625
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 3: Or at least injured by them. But yeah, I always thought.

626
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: It would be like straight up eating down to the bone. Yeah,

627
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: it's kind of horrifying sequence.

628
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 3: I agree. You know that was scary as heck. I

629
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 3: remember that.

630
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then I'm also reminded that there's a whole

631
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 1: plot line one of the main I guess part of

632
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: The main plot in Hannibal is that Mason Berger wants

633
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 1: to feed Hannibal Lecter to some wild bores. I forget

634
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,399
Speaker 1: the exact details, but he's like, actually bred some big

635
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: monster bores to eat Hannibal Lecter.

636
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 3: I think they're not wild boars, aren't they. They're like,

637
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 3: they're like domestic pigs that were selected to enjoy the

638
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 3: taste of human flesh.

639
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 1: Was that it? I knew there was some sort of

640
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 1: selective breeding, but I wouldn't. I wouldn't sure how Jurassic

641
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 1: Park it got. It's been a long time since I

642
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 1: read it, So it's like, if you had told me

643
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, he used he used DNA from prehistoric

644
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 1: pigs and bores, I would be like, okay, sure, yeah.

645
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,240
Speaker 1: I mean he's like super rich, and that is certainly

646
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 1: a novel of excess, So why not.

647
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 3: Like he, oh, yes, he cloned din Ohias hollandi or Deodon,

648
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 3: whichever is. Yeah, he cloned it to make a giant

649
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,760
Speaker 3: pig so that it could come eat Hannibal Lecter's feet.

650
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Like that's not any wilder than anything it's

651
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 1: actually in the book, So I'd say, why not? Does

652
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 1: not work out? Spoilers for Hannibal book and film adaptation.

653
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 1: But yeah, they don't actually eat Hannibal. I think in

654
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: the movie they end up eating Mason, but I don't

655
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:02,760
Speaker 1: think it goes down like that in the novel.

656
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 3: Oh, in the book there's something even weirder. I think

657
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 3: he gets thrown into some eels or.

658
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,359
Speaker 1: Something something like that. I don't think we can really

659
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 1: even go into all the detail what happens in the book,

660
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 1: but it's Yeah, I think it's worse in some ways.

661
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:21,280
Speaker 1: But now I'm wondering if there are other like monstrous pigs,

662
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 1: sort of horror pig scenarios that we should bring up

663
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: but we haven't. Perhaps those four listeners will have to

664
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: jump in other Halloween related cinematic pigs, hogs, bores, and

665
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: so forth.

666
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, send them our way, contact it stuff to blow

667
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 3: your mind dot com.

668
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe Haveleen is even getting on the action that

669
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,439
Speaker 1: I can't Haveveleena's don't really seem to have the same

670
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 1: like horror vibe. I don't know Ila was get a

671
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 1: sweeter vibe off of the Havelena, though I've seen some

672
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,800
Speaker 1: pretty ferocious looking Hovelna heads mounted on the wall before

673
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 1: my uncle and aunt had the head of one that

674
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: they had killed on the wall of their s room,

675
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: and they had they also had this like, uh, this

676
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 1: reading light that had like a red plastic cover, so

677
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 1: it ended up casting like a hellish red glow on

678
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 1: the like snarling head mounted head of a hovelina, and

679
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 1: it created quite a scene, I think when when when

680
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 1: my son traveled out there with us, we ended up

681
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: having to do something to sort of alter the tableau

682
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 1: so it wouldn't be quite as terrifying to sleep at

683
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 1: the same room with it. Put a towel over it. Yeah, yeah,

684
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 1: put a towel over it, our hat on it. I

685
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,839
Speaker 1: don't know what we did, maybe change the light out.

686
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 3: I don't know how you didn't start our series talking

687
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 3: about that.

688
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: That's great, I know, I'd kind of kind of forgotten

689
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: about that real quick before anybody goes to correct me

690
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 1: on this. Haveleen is our pack reas. So they are

691
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 1: pig like like ungulates, but they are not pigs per se,

692
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 1: So a lot of people will call them pigs or

693
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 1: call them bores, and yeah, it's there, they're pig like.

694
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: I'll leave it at that, all right, Well, on that note,

695
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 1: we're going to go ahead and close out this look

696
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: at the Hogs of Hell, but again certainly write in

697
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 1: if you have more examples of Halloween hogs, be the fictional, prehistoric, science, fictional, mythological, folkloric,

698
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: whatever you've got, write in. We would love to hear

699
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,399
Speaker 1: from you. We'll probably, you know well, inevitably do some

700
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 1: sort of a like a Halloween Hangover listener mail episode

701
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 1: at some point in November to go through additional stuff

702
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: that has come in related to our Halloween episodes. So

703
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 1: do write in.

704
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

705
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

706
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

707
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

708
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

709
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

710
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of Heart Radio.

711
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,919
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

712
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.

713
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Speaker 1: M