WEBVTT - The Competition

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<v Speaker 1>Hello, and welcome to Trillions presents the E t F Story.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Joel Webber and I'm the editor of Bloomberg Business Week.

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<v Speaker 1>In this episode, we're going to focus on a critical

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<v Speaker 1>part of the e t S rise, which Eric baltun

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<v Speaker 1>Iss likens to something out of early Silicon Valley. It

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<v Speaker 1>almost seems like webs and spy at this time. We're

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<v Speaker 1>like the PC or the mouse went back when Xerox

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<v Speaker 1>had it, where some people just recognize its potential, even

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<v Speaker 1>of the people who actually own it at the time

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<v Speaker 1>don't see it. This is Dave Noddi. He's the managing

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<v Speaker 1>director of e t F dot Com. The comparison to

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<v Speaker 1>what happened with the pala Alto Research Center, the Park

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<v Speaker 1>Labs having the the gooey for what became the mac

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<v Speaker 1>uh and that sort of that idea, whether it's stolen

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<v Speaker 1>or borrowed or whatever, it's very apt for the e

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<v Speaker 1>t F for number of reasons. It's it's apt because

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<v Speaker 1>you can argue about the intellectual property and is it

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<v Speaker 1>theft or is it you know, people just recognizing greatness

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<v Speaker 1>and building on it. But it's also relevant because it

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<v Speaker 1>was that big a phase shift in how people thought

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<v Speaker 1>about investing. Naught has been around E t F pretty

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<v Speaker 1>much since the beginning, and he says that, yes, the

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<v Speaker 1>Market Break Report is largely credited as the genesis of

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<v Speaker 1>the E t F, as that's where Nate Most and

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<v Speaker 1>Steve Bloom got their idea for spot success has a

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<v Speaker 1>thousand fathers. So everybody tries to claim on a given

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<v Speaker 1>day that they were the father of the E t F.

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<v Speaker 1>It's really whatever unnamed person probably slid that into the report.

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<v Speaker 1>But I will say this that once that idea was

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<v Speaker 1>planted in that you know, SEC report, the idea was

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<v Speaker 1>in the air. Bob Tole is president of his own

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<v Speaker 1>E t F consulting company, but was with Morgan Stanley

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<v Speaker 1>in the nineteen eighties, and he says nothing is right

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<v Speaker 1>about there being something in the air after the seven

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<v Speaker 1>Market Break Report was published. He says people were trying

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<v Speaker 1>to come up with something like a collective investment, but

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<v Speaker 1>that treated like a stock. Meanwhile, Leland O'Brien and Ruberstein

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<v Speaker 1>are really trying to redeem themselves in the financial community,

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<v Speaker 1>and they start working on a product called super shares

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<v Speaker 1>up in Canada, the Canadian Stock Exchanges, working on a

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<v Speaker 1>thing called tips. All of these became the precursors to

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<v Speaker 1>both securities. Remember John O'Brien from episode one, who, along

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<v Speaker 1>with a team at Leland O'Brien Rubinstein, created portfolio insurance,

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<v Speaker 1>but most people in Wall Street didn't understand what that was.

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<v Speaker 1>Some big asset managers did, some big focal dealers did,

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<v Speaker 1>and they realized when the market went down, portfolio insurance

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<v Speaker 1>required selling stock and buying bonds. As Toll says, O'Brien

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<v Speaker 1>and his firm were working to redeem themselves because their

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<v Speaker 1>portfolio insurance was largely credited to stock market crash. O'Brien

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<v Speaker 1>says that what they were working on was the first TTF. Yeah, well,

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<v Speaker 1>I think we were the creator of the t F

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<v Speaker 1>all it wasn't called any TF back then. He says.

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<v Speaker 1>They were communicating with folks at the am X at

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<v Speaker 1>the time, and we have a handshake agreement they would

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<v Speaker 1>not copy our products and they would benefit from the

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<v Speaker 1>trading of it. O'Brien says the AMEX didn't hold up

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<v Speaker 1>their end of the deal, so they undercut us, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe not so intentionally, but maybe intentionally, and came out

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<v Speaker 1>with the spies exactly one month and one day after

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<v Speaker 1>the super Trust began trading on November five, and when

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<v Speaker 1>I called him up, they said, well, the handshake agreement

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<v Speaker 1>is good for a month. Meanwhile, up in Canada, a

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<v Speaker 1>spy is waiting for SEC approval. A team from the

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<v Speaker 1>Toronto Stock Exchange managed to get their version of a

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<v Speaker 1>market basket product approved within a year. It was called

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<v Speaker 1>the Toronto Index Participation shares or tips and attract the

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<v Speaker 1>Toronto Stock Exchange Index. And this was an e t

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<v Speaker 1>F launched. Now, if you go around to conferences like

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<v Speaker 1>I do, there's a general view amongst the analysts that

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<v Speaker 1>Canada came out with the first TTF. However, when I

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<v Speaker 1>talked with people from that time, even from Canada, and

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<v Speaker 1>they admitted that what happened was the Toronto Stock Exchange

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<v Speaker 1>had come down and met with AMEX and just I

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<v Speaker 1>guess they just you know, we're friends, buddies. They took

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<v Speaker 1>the spy idea and basically resketched it up there. And

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<v Speaker 1>the Canadian regulatory body is much more liberal than the US.

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<v Speaker 1>We've seen that time and time again. Since then, they

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<v Speaker 1>were in and out of approval process within a year.

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<v Speaker 1>Dave Nodding says he's not proving to all those details

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<v Speaker 1>about how TIPS came about, but one thing was for sure, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>the am X was driving it. And whether or not,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, Nate showed the idea to somebody over a

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<v Speaker 1>T s X or Toronto at that time, um, and

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<v Speaker 1>they stole the idea, launched it there. To some extent.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a little bit of I don't know who really cares,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean exposed in retrospect. You can make a good,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, thriller movie out of it. Somebody running the

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<v Speaker 1>briefcase across the tracks kind of thing. We spoke with

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<v Speaker 1>Peter Haynes, who began his career on the Toronto Stock

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<v Speaker 1>Exchange as an intern. I came back work full time

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<v Speaker 1>in eighty nine and Tips from launched and nineties saw

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<v Speaker 1>as part of the launch team for TIPS, so I

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<v Speaker 1>do have that on my resume. TIPS Toronto Index Participation

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<v Speaker 1>Units is what they were called. The symbol was t

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<v Speaker 1>I P listed on the Toronto Stock Exchange on March nine,

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<v Speaker 1>and probably the most interesting factoid of all is that

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<v Speaker 1>there was zero feet. Haynes says there was no management

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<v Speaker 1>expense ratio or mirror at the time, and that the

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<v Speaker 1>exchange ran as a way to give retail investors access

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<v Speaker 1>to the market with just one trading vehicle. The hundred

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<v Speaker 1>and fifty million dollars that were seated at the original

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<v Speaker 1>launch of TIPS all one million institutional investors, so that

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<v Speaker 1>was a bit of a surprise in the shock. Haynes

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<v Speaker 1>says that yes, there were conversations with Nate Most and

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<v Speaker 1>Stephen Bloom at the time, but that the most significant

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<v Speaker 1>influence on their product was not the AMMYX the Philadelphia

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<v Speaker 1>Exchange as they were attempting to launch something called SIPs

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<v Speaker 1>cash Index Participation securities and they struggled to get that

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<v Speaker 1>product through the sec And this was in the late

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<v Speaker 1>eighties early nineties that they were trying this, and our

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<v Speaker 1>management at the time had spent some time with the

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<v Speaker 1>Philly guys and said, hey, let's try this in Canada.

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<v Speaker 1>And where we were lucky and I think forward thinking

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<v Speaker 1>in terms of our regulators was the time from the

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<v Speaker 1>time the obviously was approached to the time was approved

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<v Speaker 1>was I believe less than six months, So it was

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<v Speaker 1>late at the end of the day. A lucky thing

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<v Speaker 1>that the Toronto Exchange happened to be the first market

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<v Speaker 1>in the world to launch an e t F but

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<v Speaker 1>you know, sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

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<v Speaker 1>Reggie Brown of Cantor Fitzgerald, whose nickname Mr ETF, was

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<v Speaker 1>working at the Philadelphia Stock Exchange when the PHILIX developed

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<v Speaker 1>Certificate Index Participation Shares or SIPs, and I remember uniquely

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<v Speaker 1>that they were born from the seven Crash and some

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<v Speaker 1>gurus at the Philipstock Exchange came with an idea based

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<v Speaker 1>on a report, and I do remember they traded briefly

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<v Speaker 1>on the phile X, and in my role on the industry,

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<v Speaker 1>I always recall, Hey, by the way, the Philix had SIPs,

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<v Speaker 1>and unfortunately it was overlooked, not well recognized, and they

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<v Speaker 1>were designed based on the report that came out from

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<v Speaker 1>the government said there needed to be a vehicle in

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<v Speaker 1>order to help offset sell in bounce at orders in

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<v Speaker 1>the marketplace, and the phil X was ahead of their time,

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<v Speaker 1>but unfortunately they went away. Brown says there was a

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<v Speaker 1>legal issue with McGrath hill, who owned a license name

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<v Speaker 1>of SP five under a standard and Poor's and McGraw

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<v Speaker 1>hill sued and successfully got in a junction around trademark

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<v Speaker 1>issues around SIPs and it stopped trading because of that.

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<v Speaker 1>So the reality is these other products did come to

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<v Speaker 1>market before Spy. Here's Eric again. So to sum this up,

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<v Speaker 1>even though you may hear that Canada came out with

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<v Speaker 1>the first TTF, that is true, but the idea was

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<v Speaker 1>in the US. I think that's important. So it's a

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<v Speaker 1>good footnote to the story. In the end, the fact

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<v Speaker 1>that Spy is the biggest et F on the planet

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<v Speaker 1>almost by twofold says all you need to know. And

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<v Speaker 1>the Tips product has been bought and merged and doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>even have a ticker anymore, and that kind of also

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<v Speaker 1>matters to the story. So the fact that Spy outlasted them,

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<v Speaker 1>outlived them, outgrew them, and is the most trade to

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<v Speaker 1>security four times over on the planet as to its

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<v Speaker 1>so legacy. But some have tried to take away from

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<v Speaker 1>it by saying, well, actually it wasn't first, and so

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<v Speaker 1>I would say, well, it depends on how you define it.

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<v Speaker 1>And I don't blame Toronod for doing it. It It was

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<v Speaker 1>a heads up play. But the fact that just because

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<v Speaker 1>they had to wait four years, you can't really blame

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<v Speaker 1>them for that. They would have been out in one

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<v Speaker 1>if they could. They have been at nine if they

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<v Speaker 1>could have. But why didn't these products that were birth

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<v Speaker 1>from similar circumstances at the exact same time gained the

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<v Speaker 1>same success well, as Bob Tole says, there are a

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<v Speaker 1>few reasons. Well, first of all, you had the most

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<v Speaker 1>renowned index in the United States, next to the dal

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<v Speaker 1>Jones Industrial thirty right being the benchmark for it. It

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<v Speaker 1>was a full replication, so there was no question on

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<v Speaker 1>the back of the SEC that somebody was managing this asset.

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<v Speaker 1>And you had the publications that they required daily of

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<v Speaker 1>information to provide a level of transparency that was nowhere

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<v Speaker 1>available in the mutual fund industry, information including the composition

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<v Speaker 1>the assets, the holdings, and what the waitings were. Also,

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<v Speaker 1>these similar products hadn't undergone the same level of scrutiny

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<v Speaker 1>with the U. S. Government as Spy had because Spy,

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<v Speaker 1>remember was filed under the forty Act. A move toll

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<v Speaker 1>Fields was worth the weight. Oh absolutely, honestly, I do.

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<v Speaker 1>You could have had a structured note, but then you

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<v Speaker 1>realize you're taking balance sheet risk. At that time, especially

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<v Speaker 1>after the eight seven crash, nobody wanted balance sheet risk. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>then you say, okay, I'm gonna buy a mutual fund. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>that was what everybody thought was froll to begin with.

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<v Speaker 1>So now you have to have a new structure, so

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<v Speaker 1>you have your choices. Right, you can have a closed

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<v Speaker 1>end fund which has premiument discounts. Right, you could have

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<v Speaker 1>a traditional mutual fund, or you could have this new

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<v Speaker 1>animal called at this time an index share. And the

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<v Speaker 1>index share was really I mean, it was an epiphany.

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<v Speaker 1>Dave Not says, a lot of Spy success can be

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<v Speaker 1>attributed to its no frill structure. If you actually look

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<v Speaker 1>at the structure of Spy, it was phenomenally simple. A

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<v Speaker 1>lot of the index participation, securities models and things really

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<v Speaker 1>were almost like versions of structured notes, right. They were complex,

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<v Speaker 1>they had counterparties that people weren't used to dealing with.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that the genius of the Spy model

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<v Speaker 1>and then later the sort of more traditional forti act

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<v Speaker 1>versions that came after it, where they took really simple

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<v Speaker 1>existing structures and they used those to create what they

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<v Speaker 1>needed to create. Um, you know, they used the U

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<v Speaker 1>I T structure to you know, embed the index into

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<v Speaker 1>the product. That I think was a really critical part

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<v Speaker 1>of getting that approved. But you know, they used that

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<v Speaker 1>structure that existed already that lawyers were comfortable with. That

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<v Speaker 1>everybody was comfortable with, and they said, oh great, that's

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<v Speaker 1>our investment vehicle. And then they took sort of a

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<v Speaker 1>traditional prime brokerage model of moving large baskets of securities

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<v Speaker 1>in and out, and they said, hey, we're just going

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<v Speaker 1>to take what was then the default prime brokerage trading model.

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<v Speaker 1>We're going to use that to do these creation redemption baskets.

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<v Speaker 1>So what they did was take all the pieces that

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<v Speaker 1>already worked and changed as little as possible to make

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<v Speaker 1>something new happen. And now spices footprint is enormous as

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<v Speaker 1>the largest ETF with two dred and seventy billion in assets.

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<v Speaker 1>For a comparison, the second largest et F has one

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<v Speaker 1>billion dollars less than assets than SPY. It's really stood

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<v Speaker 1>the test of time. Here's not again. But but in

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<v Speaker 1>the end, all of these things come down to execution.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that's actually been the story of ets

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<v Speaker 1>for twenty five years, is it's always down to execution.

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<v Speaker 1>Next time on trains presents how the e t F

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<v Speaker 1>really started to gain steam. It wasn't until I was

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<v Speaker 1>sitting on a trading desk and all of a sudden,

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<v Speaker 1>I could like hit a button and get a million dollar,

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<v Speaker 1>exposure to the cues. That was all in. Thanks for

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<v Speaker 1>listening to Trillions Presents until next time. You can find

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<v Speaker 1>us on the Bloomberg Terminal, bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcasts,

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<v Speaker 1>and wherever else you want to listen. Trillions Presents is

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<v Speaker 1>produced by Jordan Bell with production help from Magnus Hendrickson.

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<v Speaker 1>Francesco Levy is the head of Bloomberg podcast