Speaker 1: This is now recording. Great, Hi everybody, welcome to I
Speaker 1: guess maybe a bonus episode.
Speaker 2: We don't know what this is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, really, but Jason's back and he had a really
Speaker 1: fun story he wanted to tell.
Speaker 2: So and just by the origin, so people understand Andrew
Speaker 2: has no idea of the story I'm about to tell.
Speaker 1: Zero clue. You sent me a picture of a cult
Speaker 1: what you thought was the Nexium cult, yeah, which like
Speaker 1: fascinated by. And Scott's not really super into cults, so
Speaker 1: I was like, I want to hear the story about
Speaker 1: the cult.
Speaker 2: Okay, So, and just so you know, I have maybe
Speaker 2: told the story to one or two other people, So
Speaker 2: I don't even know if it's even a good story,
Speaker 2: but I hope, I hope it is right. Okay, go,
Speaker 2: I'm ready when pandemic happens. March of twenty twenty, me
Speaker 2: and my wife live in New York City on the
Speaker 2: Upper East Side. We moved out of the city temporarily,
Speaker 2: and then we moved back into the city June first
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty. Now were you where were you in
Speaker 2: June first, twenty twenty.
Speaker 1: I just moved back to Jersey City because I went
Speaker 1: I moved to my parents when the pandemics happened.
Speaker 2: Like most people did.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then I moved back in June.
Speaker 2: So New York City at that time was like it
Speaker 2: was eerily dead, like most people. Keep in mind, New
Speaker 2: York City was the epicenter, so everyone moved out. But
Speaker 2: what happened was I had my own business and I
Speaker 2: needed to come in and I had employees. So June first,
Speaker 2: I moved back into the city. I reopened my office
Speaker 2: and believe it or not, we started going in legally
Speaker 2: because they said that we could. So. But every night,
Speaker 2: when the sun would set, you could see how vacant
Speaker 2: the buildings were. Yeah, and especially the building surrounding me.
Speaker 2: So I live on the twelfth floor, and across the
Speaker 2: street from me, there's a really fancy building, really fancy,
Speaker 2: and in that building, almost all of the apartments were dark,
Speaker 2: aside from the few that were there. And like we
Speaker 2: were like, oh, those are our friends, those are our
Speaker 2: pandemic friends. There are one apartment that was right across
Speaker 2: and one floor up. There was always like one individual
Speaker 2: person in that apartment, okay, okay, and like the person
Speaker 2: like when like they didn't really come out on their
Speaker 2: balcony that much and like you can only just like
Speaker 2: kind of see their silhouette. So and like sometimes they'd
Speaker 2: be like staring and because there was nothing that there
Speaker 2: was nothing going on, they like stare into our apartment
Speaker 2: and stuff. Yeah, okay, so we're just like that is
Speaker 2: the creepiest thing in the world. It's just this one
Speaker 2: guy that's at this apartment throughout the pandemic.
Speaker 1: And they would just be like standing on their balcony just.
Speaker 2: Like like almost like yeah, they have a balcony and
Speaker 2: then there's like a window, like I would see them
Speaker 2: like staring out just like and we were probably one
Speaker 2: of one of the only apartments in our building that
Speaker 2: was occupied, so like we would stare at them, they
Speaker 2: would stare back at us, or he would and so okay,
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, things start to get better in New
Speaker 2: York City. Things start to open up, and there's now
Speaker 2: more people at that apartment little by little. So first
Speaker 2: there was two, then it was three, and then like
Speaker 2: this year especially, there was times where there was like ten, eleven,
Speaker 2: twelve people at the apartment, okay at one time, at
Speaker 2: like one time, and the apartment's not like ghy, it's
Speaker 2: a nice apartment. Maybe a two bedroom, but like, why
Speaker 2: are there so many people? Why are there? It would
Speaker 2: be like a Tuesday night, and then like Wednesday morning,
Speaker 2: like we would wake up and see and there'd be
Speaker 2: like four or five people like on the balcony, so
Speaker 2: like people were staying over at that apartment, and like, oh,
Speaker 2: so my wife is also a big cult person. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and so she and I would hypothesize what that particular
Speaker 2: apartment was and we both came to the same conclusion
Speaker 2: that it's got to be a cult.
Speaker 1: Oh say less, I mean why not?
Speaker 2: Right? Yeah, So it's very strange, weird amounts of people
Speaker 2: and like weird looking people too, I should I should
Speaker 2: say that, very strange looking people. So last week, after
Speaker 2: we've had maybe fifty dinnertime conversations of talking about the
Speaker 2: cult across the way, which we thought was maybe like
Speaker 2: next Seum or like one of those big cults that
Speaker 2: that there was like Netflix specials on. Yeah, we're like.
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm getting to the bottom of this.
Speaker 2: I need to know what this.
Speaker 1: Is, who lives there, what's going on?
Speaker 2: Okay, So here's what I did, all right, And you
Speaker 2: should know I'm a lawyer by trade, so I'm pretty
Speaker 2: good at like investigating things. Yes, So the first off,
Speaker 2: we didn't even know what the apartment number was of
Speaker 2: the building, so like we didn't know if it was
Speaker 2: like apartment like thirteen or or whatever. So the first
Speaker 2: thing we did, I'm gonna take you through my steps here, Okay.
Speaker 2: So I went to street easy and I figured out
Speaker 2: the apartment straight across the way, okay, which was the
Speaker 2: apartment under theirs And I figured out that was apartment
Speaker 2: I don't know, twelve s, let's call it. So we're like, okay,
Speaker 2: we need to we know that the apartment above is
Speaker 2: likely apartment thirteen S. So I found the I ended
Speaker 2: up using street easy, which is a hold up.
Speaker 1: They have thirteen floors.
Speaker 2: Oh, this is a big building. They probably have, Like I.
Speaker 1: Thought there were no thirteen floors and buildings.
Speaker 2: I think there is a thirteenth floor in this building. Weird.
Speaker 1: Okay, already I'm hooked.
Speaker 2: So the building, I should tell you, takes up like
Speaker 2: a full New York City block. It's a big building
Speaker 2: and it probably has maybe eighteen nineteen floors in the building.
Speaker 2: There's three separate towers. So it's a really big building
Speaker 2: and a really fancy building. White glove like Dorman like
Speaker 2: lots of amenities, you name, it's the extremely expensive extremely Okay.
Speaker 2: So I figure out what the apartment number is by
Speaker 2: using street Easy, which is a basically a Zillo for
Speaker 2: New York City. Yeah, okay, So I now have the
Speaker 2: apartment number. So then I go into the New York
Speaker 2: City property records okay, and I searched there quite a
Speaker 2: bit for things, and I was able to find that
Speaker 2: apartment and that apartment which is owned by an LLC
Speaker 2: called my Nest LLC. Okay, my Nest ELLC. And if
Speaker 2: you're unfamiliar with what goes love with what goes on
Speaker 2: in New York City, so like a lot of people,
Speaker 2: like rich people don't want to put their names on
Speaker 2: individual apartments, so they make these like fake LLCs like
Speaker 2: that are just like for the purposes of owning the
Speaker 2: apartments to avoid liability.
Speaker 1: Of like a shell company.
Speaker 2: It's a shell company, so it's my Nest LLC. So
Speaker 2: then I'm like, okay, my Nest LLC, what is this?
Speaker 2: So then I continue searching the property records and then
Speaker 2: I search my Nest LLC to see if they own
Speaker 2: any additional properties in New York City, they owned one
Speaker 2: other apartment, so this that apartment's on sixty sixth Street.
Speaker 2: They owned an apartment on sixty ninth Street, Okay, okay,
Speaker 2: So I was like, what is going on here? They
Speaker 2: owned two separate apartments sixty six sixty ninth. This is weird. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So then I go into the actual like transfer of
Speaker 2: the deeds and of on the transfer of the deeds
Speaker 2: for the individual apartment on sixty six, which is the
Speaker 2: apartment that's across the way from us. I see a
Speaker 2: name of It's very strange because the deed and if
Speaker 2: you wanted to serve the LLC, oh I missed a
Speaker 2: step here. So then I went to the New York
Speaker 2: State Entity Department of State website to figure out who
Speaker 2: owns that LLC MYSTLLC. And this all just.
Speaker 1: Came because you just were like, I'm gonna get to
Speaker 1: the bottom of this.
Speaker 2: I needed to get I needed we needed to know.
Speaker 2: This had been going on for years, like once or
Speaker 2: twice a week, me and my wife would be like, oh,
Speaker 2: the having a party again, yeah, the cult, Yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: who's there?
Speaker 1: Why are people there?
Speaker 2: So then the listing on the state's website for who
Speaker 2: owned the corporation didn't say who owned it, but it
Speaker 2: gave a service address of somebody a financial company in
Speaker 2: Los Angeles, California, like a financial advisor. And that financial
Speaker 2: advisor's name was Marilyn Anderson, like financial services. Okay. So
Speaker 2: then I google Marilyn Anderson financial Services and I come
Speaker 2: to this website and I find this woman, Marilyn Anderson,
Speaker 2: and she had written a book called How to Live
Speaker 2: Like a Millionaire Without having a million dollars okay, And
Speaker 2: I don't know if this is gonna come up, but
Speaker 2: she is very quirky.
Speaker 3: Have to be a millionaire to refod prescriptions these days,
Speaker 3: and that's even with insurance. So I checked out ways
Speaker 3: to get my pills for less. You might have high
Speaker 3: cholesterol or diabetes, or.
Speaker 2: She might have broken so it's like a health cult
Speaker 2: so like or like No, that was just like an
Speaker 2: example of like, oh, how do you get your prescriptions
Speaker 2: for cheaper? Okay?
Speaker 1: So hold on, Yeah, So the apartment, it goes back
Speaker 1: to my Nest LLC LLC. They bought this apartment on
Speaker 1: sixty six and they own an apartment on sixty nine.
Speaker 1: Correct under when you looked into my Nest, you found
Speaker 1: out the person that bought the apartments or what the
Speaker 1: entity is registered to the person is this woman? Okay, okay,
Speaker 1: so then hold up and she's Los Angeles Base.
Speaker 2: And she's Los Angeles Base. She calls herself an author,
Speaker 2: and she.
Speaker 1: Can I see a picture?
Speaker 2: Yeah, actually I could show you that video.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Okay, did you did you look at
Speaker 1: the comments on YouTube? Of course you did, why would
Speaker 1: you wait?
Speaker 2: So then I searched further into Marilyn Anderson, and then
Speaker 2: I found a different Marilyn Anderson. So already my mind
Speaker 2: is like, okay, this is some like how to like
Speaker 2: live like a millionaire, and all these like people are
Speaker 2: piled up into this really expensive apartment and they're like
Speaker 2: living like a millionaire without like living. So but then
Speaker 2: I found a different Maryland. Okay, and the Maryland was
Speaker 2: a legitimate financial advisor. So this crazy kooky person is
Speaker 2: not this has nothing to do.
Speaker 1: Oh okay. So Maryland doesn't live there, She does not
Speaker 1: live there. Does she come up anymore in the story.
Speaker 2: She does not, But another Marilyn Anderson does.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's fair.
Speaker 2: Okay, So then there's this other Marilyn Anderson who has
Speaker 2: a legitimate financial company, and I found the company, and
Speaker 2: I found her on LinkedIn. Got the real Marilyn Andrews.
Speaker 1: Got It.
Speaker 2: I just was taking into like a dead end, as
Speaker 2: we called got it.
Speaker 1: Got it yepp Okay.
Speaker 2: So I'm like, okay, like that ended up being a
Speaker 2: dead end too. I looked her up on LinkedIn. She's
Speaker 2: like a private equity financial advisor for people in Los Angeles, California,
Speaker 2: because she calls it like very boutiqui and for like
Speaker 2: very like famous rich people.
Speaker 1: It's got it.
Speaker 2: So I was like okay, like I couldn't get any
Speaker 2: other information. So then I started like really parsing through
Speaker 2: the property records.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna ask you that would be my
Speaker 1: next question, just would figure out when did this apartment
Speaker 1: become my nests sod unquote.
Speaker 2: So that apartment though, that my nest apartment was bought
Speaker 2: maybe in like twenty sixteen or twenty seventeen.
Speaker 1: Also, I have a side question, yes, And I feel
Speaker 1: you're a good person ask for this. It's nice because
Speaker 1: usually when I ask Scott questions, like we just say
Speaker 1: I don't know, yeah, but I feel like, you know, okay,
Speaker 1: this is great. Yes, So I as a company, Yeah,
Speaker 1: like just say Serial Killers LLC. Correct, we could buy
Speaker 1: an apartment, correct, And then basically what we could do, yes,
Speaker 1: is use that and then count it as a loss
Speaker 1: because we bought property. But then I don't know, for
Speaker 1: tax reasons, you could almost like finagle it where it's
Speaker 1: like oh, wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're a property owner and you have a
Speaker 2: mortgage and a property, you could there's ways to deduct
Speaker 2: part of that mortgage from Yes.
Speaker 1: So we could say it's like our headquarters.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then and then you're taking you there's a
Speaker 2: deduction of a maximum of seve hundred and fifty thousand dollars.
Speaker 1: So we could keep buying properties and saying that we're
Speaker 1: all the mortgages and all this other stuff.
Speaker 2: Well, eventually a bank would be like, oh, we're not
Speaker 2: going to give you more than one one would hope yes, Okay,
Speaker 2: so now we that. So I start parsing through the
Speaker 2: property records, and every single address that's even on the
Speaker 2: property records goes back to this financial firm in Los Angeles.
Speaker 2: So they're really doing a crazy job at hiding who
Speaker 2: owns my nest all see, and who owns this property.
Speaker 2: But deep in one of the financial records I saw
Speaker 2: this address and it said, keep in mind this property
Speaker 2: is a two hundred East sixty six. They also own
Speaker 2: a property a two hundred East sixty ninth. And then
Speaker 2: really deep in the records, I saw this address of
Speaker 2: two twenty five East sixty seventh Street. Hold up a
Speaker 2: third property, a third property, and this was not readily
Speaker 2: available in You really had to go into the property
Speaker 2: records to find this. Okay, okay, and this just happened
Speaker 2: to be on one of the PaperWorks that you were
Speaker 2: going through. Yeah, because I was like really getting into it,
Speaker 2: I was like, there has to be another address somewhere.
Speaker 2: So then I look up the property records for two
Speaker 2: twenty five East sixty seventh Street. Well, first I go
Speaker 2: to street Easy or Google street Feel when I look,
Speaker 2: and it's a carriage house in New York City. So
Speaker 2: it's like a three.
Speaker 1: Or four level like a brownstone, like beautiful brownskot it
Speaker 1: so super expensive, like New York, those things are insanely priced,
Speaker 1: like at least ten million.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and this one's in like a very nice neighborhood.
Speaker 2: It's properly East type. Yeah, it's probably like fifteen or
Speaker 2: twenty million, and it's big.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're talking money.
Speaker 2: Money, yes, Okay. So I going look and I saw
Speaker 2: that there was some transfers of that piece of property
Speaker 2: between like two thousand and two, two thousand and three
Speaker 2: to like the last one might have been like twenty eighteen, okay.
Speaker 2: And so when I start going through the records, I
Speaker 2: see that there's a transfer of the property from A
Speaker 2: James Henson to A what's the name. I got to
Speaker 2: figure out the name and make sure I have all
Speaker 2: my facts correct. Hold up.
Speaker 1: So from this random address being on the original property
Speaker 1: for the sixty sixth one, yes, you then went to
Speaker 1: the this address on sixty seventh correct, because why would they?
Speaker 1: Why would so, Mike, this is a dumb question, but
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm really gonna dumb this down. Why
Speaker 1: would the sixty seventh Street address be on there?
Speaker 2: I don't know. And that's what was confusing, because in
Speaker 2: all the other documents and the transfers, like they were
Speaker 2: using that Los Angeles address. But maybe someone said at
Speaker 2: some point you need to have an actual address of it.
Speaker 2: Can't just be this financial person like like, we want
Speaker 2: to put an actual address onto this document.
Speaker 1: For the same reasons that I was talking at before,
Speaker 1: because after a while, the banks are going to ask
Speaker 1: what is this financial company doing with all these properties?
Speaker 2: Exactly? So ready, I see a couple of different transfers
Speaker 2: of this property. One was from a James Henson to
Speaker 2: a Jane Henson, and then a Jane Henson to some
Speaker 2: other LLC. And then when when Jane Henson and the
Speaker 2: transfer so from James Henson to the other Henson, it
Speaker 2: was a there was zero dollars exchange from Jane Henson
Speaker 2: to this new LLC. It was like three and a
Speaker 2: half million dollars, which is significantly undervalue for the tarty.
Speaker 2: And then that entity transferred it to another entity called
Speaker 2: like my carriage house or carriage house annex LLC.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, so now, and this is all taking
Speaker 1: place around the same time as the twenty sixteen property.
Speaker 2: Generally things are taking like around the same time.
Speaker 1: So within the past ten years, correct, they pick up
Speaker 1: the sixty sixth Street one, they pick up the sixty
Speaker 1: ninth Street one, and then this mysterious sixty seventh Street
Speaker 1: property is transferred for considerably underpriced in this exact same
Speaker 1: time exactly.
Speaker 2: But it looked like that sixty seventh Street property was
Speaker 2: owned within those same entities or those same people for
Speaker 2: a very long period to pass around a month, correct,
Speaker 2: passed around from different entities and different people.
Speaker 1: Interesting.
Speaker 2: Ready, yeah, this is where it comes full circle. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so we start, my me and my wife start to
Speaker 2: look at two twenty five East sixty seventh Street. I
Speaker 2: believe is the address. Let me just double check that.
Speaker 1: And this is the carriage house. This is the carriage house,
Speaker 1: the random carriage house that you found on a financial
Speaker 1: document exactly that cracked open the whole thing.
Speaker 2: Yes, it is two twenty five East sixty seventh Street. Okay,
Speaker 2: So two twenty five East sixty seventh Street, as we
Speaker 2: looked into it was ready for it. Yeah, it was.
Speaker 2: It belonged to Jim Henson the Muppets, the creator of
Speaker 2: the Muppets and of Sesame Street. And it was his
Speaker 2: workshop where he had developed many of the Muppet and
Speaker 2: Sesame Street characters.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: And so now that when he before he died, he
Speaker 2: trans for that property to his wife. His wife then
Speaker 2: transferred that property to his estate, and then his estate
Speaker 2: transferred that property to a separate project that's run by
Speaker 2: his daughter. And it's called the carriage House annex. Okay,
Speaker 2: And they give like grants and works the different puppeteers
Speaker 2: that are promoting the arts of puppetry. Oh okay, yeah,
Speaker 2: so then we're like, what what is going on? Yeah,
Speaker 2: and then we pulled it all together the apartment across
Speaker 2: the way, which is owned by my Nest LLC Big
Speaker 2: Bird Nest. Oh. Yeah, what we thought was the Nexium
Speaker 2: cult across the way actually is just a group of
Speaker 2: puppeteers and they are probably such nice, sweet people that
Speaker 2: probably don't have a lot of money, because I don't
Speaker 2: think there's a lot of money and puppeteering.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I feel like you really got to
Speaker 1: be at the top to be a good puppeteer.
Speaker 2: Yes, And so across the way there, it's kind of
Speaker 2: like a cult. There's a cult of puppet tears. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And from us thinking that this was like the creepiest,
Speaker 2: weirdest thing in the world is like the most like
Speaker 2: lovely nice thing.
Speaker 3: I know.
Speaker 1: It's almost like you found like a nice uh you
Speaker 1: wrapped it up nicely. Like here I was. I was
Speaker 1: waiting for the murder, No murder, I swear I was
Speaker 1: expecting a murder in the carriage house.
Speaker 2: Can I tell where you where we're at right right
Speaker 2: right now, yeah, because like that can't be it for me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it can't be. Like I need to know
Speaker 1: more of what is going Yeah, like a scientology involved.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it is no, no, no, there's no scientology involved.
Speaker 2: So a few things. So I walked past the and
Speaker 2: I have a one and a half year old, so, like,
Speaker 2: we watch a lot of sesame straight on your house.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm a Muppets fan ever since I was
Speaker 2: a kid.
Speaker 1: Yeah, my goddaughter is obsessed with Elma.
Speaker 2: So I walked past the house and this is what
Speaker 2: the house looks like if you could see that.
Speaker 1: Wow, And a carriage house when you open it up,
Speaker 1: it's kind of like a courtyard, right.
Speaker 2: So it's not a courtyard. It's closed, but it's very
Speaker 2: open in there. And over the door of the carriage house,
Speaker 2: I don't know if you could see it, what is it?
Speaker 2: It says ha h a like ha ha okay, So
Speaker 2: it's like it was yeah, just like like a cute
Speaker 2: little joke. So then I started looking at the carriage
Speaker 2: house annex to find out what this is, and so
Speaker 2: I saw that they have different grants that they're giving
Speaker 2: out in different like shows like and so I am
Speaker 2: trying to now penetrate into the puppeteering community. I need
Speaker 2: to get into that carriage house.
Speaker 1: I feel like, once you went to the puppeteering world,
Speaker 1: I don't know, they're gonna know that you're They're gonna
Speaker 1: go back and listen to this. They're gonna watch it
Speaker 1: and be like, he's not one of us.
Speaker 2: Well, but I'm coming in in good faith, like it's
Speaker 2: it's a genera like like serious curiosity, right, genuine curiosity.
Speaker 2: I have no intent to do anything other than bring
Speaker 2: light to this amazing world and puppetry. Yeah, I'm not
Speaker 2: making fun of them. I think it's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2: I think it's a great thing. We love.
Speaker 1: We love Sesame Street, the Muppets like amazing.
Speaker 2: So I found this one show that's supposed to be
Speaker 2: this month or next month, and I found the creator
Speaker 2: of the show who was given the grand and I
Speaker 2: instagram messaged her and you know, I don't want to say, hey,
Speaker 2: I'm trying to figure out what's going on, but you know,
Speaker 2: nice a nice friendly message of of hey, blank, I
Speaker 2: saw online that you were given this grant and are
Speaker 2: putting on a production in the next coming days. Is
Speaker 2: there a place where I could buy tickets for the show?
Speaker 2: Where's the show being held? And she's like, thanks for
Speaker 2: reaching out, send me your email address and I'll get
Speaker 2: you the information. So I sent her my email address.
Speaker 2: I still haven't received anything, so I need to follow
Speaker 2: up with her. But you better believe I if I
Speaker 2: am going to go to that puppet show.
Speaker 1: Yeah, is it like Evan you q ish?
Speaker 2: No, so that specific puppeteer she does hand a shadow
Speaker 2: puppets what?
Speaker 1: Yes, So it's a whole show of shadow puppets. Correct
Speaker 1: for her, I would go to that in two seconds. Yes,
Speaker 1: and it's for it's an adult shadow puppet show. I
Speaker 1: need to go to this, right, I didn't even know
Speaker 1: that was a thing.
Speaker 2: So she and and and I'm sure it's awesome and
Speaker 2: and probably hilarious.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're getting a grant for it, I'm
Speaker 1: going to assume that you're at the top of your feeld.
Speaker 2: Like the Jim Henson grant for it. Not so it's crazy.
Speaker 1: That is nuts and it really feels very only murder
Speaker 1: in the buildings ish, Yes, like I feel like you guys, really, yes, really,
Speaker 1: I was thinking this was leading to a murder.
Speaker 2: My wife is the Selena Gomez character and am I Martin.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say maybe you're more Steve Moore and
Speaker 1: I don't think you're I think you're more Steve.
Speaker 2: I think I think I'm more Steve. Yeah. Wow, yes, So.
Speaker 1: It just goes to show don't judge a book by
Speaker 1: its cover.
Speaker 2: Do your research.
Speaker 1: Hold please, I'm going to play a quick commercial. It's here.
Speaker 1: Hold on, there we go. Wow, I get to play
Speaker 1: my own commercials Now, this is exciting. Okay, now we're back.
Speaker 2: We're back. So I don't know where this is going
Speaker 2: to go, but I'm not letting it die. Like, I
Speaker 2: have to keep this going. I have to keep this
Speaker 2: moving forward.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I feel like I've heard people are
Speaker 1: good at investigating, but you have truly I feel blown
Speaker 1: the lid on all investigations I've ever heard of. I
Speaker 1: have never seen someone go into so much detail. Yeah,
Speaker 1: to get to the bottom of something. In my life,
Speaker 1: I'm pretty relentless. I think that's one of my skills
Speaker 1: as a litigator and attorney.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have to myself for a second.
Speaker 1: Linden Law.
Speaker 2: Linden Law. So like I if I fixate on something
Speaker 2: and I want to know the answer to something like
Speaker 2: I will not give up.
Speaker 1: I am very much the same in certain things, like
Speaker 1: in college they told me my credits when in transfer
Speaker 1: I transferred three times. Yeah, by the time I got
Speaker 1: to the third one, they're like, we're not taking any
Speaker 1: of these. I legit printed out every course I ever
Speaker 1: took and got teachers recommendations on every single one of
Speaker 1: those and was like, here's why you have to take them,
Speaker 1: because I match them up to your current course book.
Speaker 1: So these match. Saying it doesn't it doesn't because the
Speaker 1: curriculums match, and the teacher even says it does.
Speaker 2: Never take no for an answer, so true. When I
Speaker 2: went for my first job interview after college, this guy
Speaker 2: was like, you're young, and you're gonna learn that life
Speaker 2: isn't black and white and there's a lot of gray
Speaker 2: area in between. Fuck that, Like, no, no, no, you
Speaker 2: make your own luck in this world. It's only a
Speaker 2: no if you let it be a no, and you
Speaker 2: never give up. That's kind of how I got onto
Speaker 2: a survivor. Really yeah, Like I was relentless, really follow
Speaker 2: up videos every six months, emailing NonStop. Once they gave
Speaker 2: me a little crack, I pushed my way through the door.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: And that's the way I like to lift, which is
Speaker 2: very annoying for my wife.
Speaker 1: No, listen, it's good to have pipples. I feel who
Speaker 1: like are aggressive like that? Yeah, because you know some
Speaker 1: people just kind of sit by the side. But I
Speaker 1: mean you've cracked open where Jim Henson's art studio is.
Speaker 1: So I mean I feel like jokes on them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's part of what I love being
Speaker 2: a lawyer. Like people that would just sit back, I'm.
Speaker 1: Like, no, yeah, we need to keep going to get in.
Speaker 1: So is all that stuff like public record? It's or
Speaker 1: do you have your own like little database that you search?
Speaker 2: So that's all like street easy is obviously public Actress
Speaker 2: which is the New York City property records as public.
Speaker 2: And then additionally you can go to the Department the
Speaker 2: New York Department of State website and look up any
Speaker 2: LLC and figure out when they were registered, who to
Speaker 2: serve if you want to sue them, and things like that.
Speaker 1: It's all public record. Do you just have to know
Speaker 1: how to use it?
Speaker 2: Just got to know that they exist and how to
Speaker 2: use it. Yeah, that's insane, It's crazy.
Speaker 1: There's like so many free resources out there that you
Speaker 1: just don't realize can help you, not being like junior detective,
Speaker 1: but can really.
Speaker 2: Could really, really really help. And that's why like a
Speaker 2: lot of like investigative podcasts and things like that, a
Speaker 2: lot of the information is out there. You just had
Speaker 2: to piece it together. So like Cereal is obviously in
Speaker 2: the news right now, like she went and did something
Speaker 2: called a foil request to to the to the prosecutor's
Speaker 2: office and to the detectives off where the government's required
Speaker 2: to respond to these requests. I'm sure they'll try to
Speaker 2: fight it a make up excuses of why they can't
Speaker 2: give it to you. But a foil request is a
Speaker 2: freedom of information request that if it's a government entity
Speaker 2: generally speaking, and the public's entitled to that information. So
Speaker 2: if you're if you're ever trying to figure out what's
Speaker 2: going on, or a loved one's being prosecuted, or maybe
Speaker 2: even in jail, you could always go and do a
Speaker 2: foil request to any entity and try to get that information,
Speaker 2: really and and anybody could do You don't have to
Speaker 2: be a lawyer to do it. Anybody could do it.
Speaker 2: We're living in a world right now. This is like
Speaker 2: We're going to get deep for a second, where it's
Speaker 2: it's almost like all these big uh like corporations have
Speaker 2: so much information on us, right, and like the government
Speaker 2: has a lot of information on us. Not to be
Speaker 2: like big brother in political politically yeah, politically politicky politikey Yeah,
Speaker 2: I need to get there. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: you know, as an individual person, you kind of think, oh,
Speaker 2: I don't have access to this information or I can't
Speaker 2: get this information. Yeah that's not true. You just have
Speaker 2: to not give up because people will tell you no
Speaker 2: along the way.
Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, that's nuts. Yes, Like I really didn't know
Speaker 1: that you could do all that for free, for free,
Speaker 1: Like I would have assumed that I would have to.
Speaker 2: Not only for free. Like in the amount of time
Speaker 2: that I told that story, I got it done really.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it was pretty fast. I was doing it
Speaker 2: on my phone. And then like once once I found
Speaker 2: the financial advisor of information, I got up from the
Speaker 2: couch and was like, I gotta grab my laptop. And
Speaker 2: then for the next twenty minutes I was just like
Speaker 2: giggling to myself as this unfold and figured out.
Speaker 1: The cult was actually like an innocent puppeteer party.
Speaker 2: And my wife is sitting next to me but not
Speaker 2: looking at my computer. She's like, tell me, tell me,
Speaker 2: and I was like, I'll tell you when I get
Speaker 2: to my head. I'm so close. I'm so close, and
Speaker 2: so she just kept hearing me chuckle to myself and
Speaker 2: she's like ah, and I was like, I'm not telling you. Good.
Speaker 1: Well, now I need to feel I like actually want
Speaker 1: to investigate a murder with you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1: Like I really feel I think i'd be good on
Speaker 1: like interviewing portion.
Speaker 2: So like that that's the area law I don't practice
Speaker 2: right now. And I'm like, should I be practicing like
Speaker 2: civil rights and getting people out of jail that maybe
Speaker 2: had wrongfully been convicted? Oh my god.
Speaker 1: Yeah that's a good one and in New York and
Speaker 1: like I like to do that type of research. Yah
Speaker 1: stuff Yeah interesting, yeah, hold up, So like just say, yeah,
Speaker 1: how do here's just questions? Yes, how do cases like
Speaker 1: get cracked back open? Is because like, for you example,
Speaker 1: you're saying like this freedom of information thing. So we'll
Speaker 1: just say I felt something was wrongfully convicted. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: start this whole process up. Would I just say contact somebody,
Speaker 1: be like, hey, there's something fishy going on here, Just
Speaker 1: keep going so and how iron tight does a case
Speaker 1: have to be for it to get like convicted or
Speaker 1: and when does it become a state department thing? Sure, so,
Speaker 1: so many questions.
Speaker 2: Okay, so we're at a very interesting time in our
Speaker 2: society right now, and we're going to get to that.
Speaker 2: But generally speaking, what happens is and keep in mind
Speaker 2: this is not my expertise. Expertise. People get convicted, they
Speaker 2: appeal the conviction, and there's different accounts which you can
Speaker 2: appeal on, and you could appeal multiple times. You could
Speaker 2: say that you didn't have proper representation or a mistake
Speaker 2: was made by the jury, and so there's lots of
Speaker 2: different ways that you could appeal. And that's why when
Speaker 2: you hear some of these documentaries on Netflix, these appeals
Speaker 2: are happening over ten, fifteen, twenty years.
Speaker 1: It's sure like the staircase, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, DNA evidence DNA technology gets better, and you say, hey,
Speaker 2: if we use this DNA technology, we could show that
Speaker 2: somebody else did it. And so as there's adjustments and
Speaker 2: moves forward in the scientific community, if you could use
Speaker 2: that evidence to to get off or to exculpate yourself
Speaker 2: and you exculpitate, sculpt exculpate. What's that like to get
Speaker 2: off of something? Did I not say the right word?
Speaker 1: No? I think you did, And I just love that word. Now, exculpitate, exculpate,
Speaker 1: love that it's so like H formal, I exculpitated myself.
Speaker 2: It's exculpate. So I hadded an extra and a couple
Speaker 2: of extra letters there. But like as technology progresses, like
Speaker 2: there's ways that you could test the evidence in the case,
Speaker 2: and that's one thing that goes on, and appeals could
Speaker 2: happen and take years. Right now, something interesting is happening
Speaker 2: as well in our society, and that's because of movements
Speaker 2: within the Black Lives Matter community and just like general
Speaker 2: civil rights and the amount of convictions that have gone
Speaker 2: on since the nineties and the drug wars and things
Speaker 2: like that, it's being uncovered that there was there's been
Speaker 2: a lot of bad policing where cops and detectives were
Speaker 2: over aggressive or or covering up evidence and not about
Speaker 2: exchanging evidence. That's called a Brady violation, which is how
Speaker 2: adden On said got off or part of how he
Speaker 2: got off. And so all these big police departments and
Speaker 2: District Attorney's offices in major, more progressive cities like New
Speaker 2: York and Baltimore and Los Angeles are now creating these
Speaker 2: units where they look at past convictions that they think
Speaker 2: might have been improper. So two weeks ago, the Brooklyn
Speaker 2: DA's office came out and said, this specific detective who
Speaker 2: worked on these cases, there's a lot of wrongdoing surrounding,
Speaker 2: and we're gonna dismiss for close to four hundred cases.
Speaker 2: Really four hundred.
Speaker 1: That's insane. You wouldn't, like, I get it in like
Speaker 1: a small town, right because you would think like everything
Speaker 1: is probably owned or operated, everybody knows each other. But
Speaker 1: in like a city, I feel like you really got
Speaker 1: to be.
Speaker 2: Like a yeah, so with I'm a criminals, So with
Speaker 2: I'm ed like they this division of the Maryland Police
Speaker 2: Department and Prosecutor's Office looked at his case because they
Speaker 2: created they recently created this division within the past year
Speaker 2: or so.
Speaker 1: Really, yeah, it has popping up more places than one. Yes,
Speaker 1: these small divisions are being to look at cases.
Speaker 2: Look at questionable convictions. And so as they looked at
Speaker 2: the specific group as the department, as they looked at it,
Speaker 2: they started to see that there was a lot of
Speaker 2: things in his case that there was potentially two other
Speaker 2: suspects who were not properly investigated. That's one and two
Speaker 2: is and the information regarding them was never exchanged his
Speaker 2: defense attorney. Wait what Yeah, so there was handwritten notes
Speaker 2: in the file of two other potential suspects, including one
Speaker 2: of them which told the victim, I'm going to kill
Speaker 2: you and make you disappear, and that information was never
Speaker 2: given to Anan Said's defense attorney, so they couldn't.
Speaker 1: And that's illegal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's called a Brady Violet. It's a constitutional violation.
Speaker 2: So that was one thing that was discovered. And additionally,
Speaker 2: they realized that a lot of the science behind quote
Speaker 2: unquote science behind his conviction, if you remember, they use
Speaker 2: a lot of cell phone tower that is all bogus
Speaker 2: and bullshit, and they're like, okay, like, as we get
Speaker 2: further into this case, we realize it like it probably
Speaker 2: wasn't him.
Speaker 1: Because people think with like you watch a detective show,
Speaker 1: you watch these shows that they kind of dramatize the
Speaker 1: whole situation. The wire really does the best job of
Speaker 1: showing you how painstaking details you need to get a
Speaker 1: search warrant, right to actually like tap into a phone, Like,
Speaker 1: it's not as easy as you think. No, and the
Speaker 1: locations that you're quote unquote getting don't actually show you
Speaker 1: the exact location, unless it's a find my iPhone where
Speaker 1: it literally shows you that you don't do it.
Speaker 2: And it's interesting because now our technology has gotten so
Speaker 2: good at pinpointing us, right, because they used to just
Speaker 2: use cell phone towers.
Speaker 4: Hey, we were in this general radius or through a
Speaker 4: triangular coordination between these three, we think you're closest to you, like,
Speaker 4: but now you're is attached to Wi Fi everywhere your
Speaker 4: phone like like like it could show when you left
Speaker 4: Wi Fi and when you join Wi Fi and so
Speaker 4: that with the cell phone towers and there's more cell
Speaker 4: phone towers too.
Speaker 1: Hold up, So just say I go missing? Uh huh
Speaker 1: but the Starbucks on twenty third Street, yeah they I
Speaker 1: how would it know? How would it pick me up there?
Speaker 2: Well, if if you connected to Starbucks Wi Fi, like
Speaker 2: that's probably in your system. When you walk past there,
Speaker 2: it probably registered your device.
Speaker 1: But like if just say I go missing with my phone,
Speaker 1: nobody and nobody could get into just say my cloud
Speaker 1: or anything. Yeah, that's all completely just gone, right, well.
Speaker 2: You're talking about like your GPS location. Yeah, your GPS
Speaker 2: location right now could be found very easily by anybody
Speaker 2: in the in the US government.
Speaker 1: But for like your case, just say, like a lawyer
Speaker 1: can't be like just say, in a murder trial, can't
Speaker 1: say I know they were home. Well, here's the evidence.
Speaker 2: What I would do in that case. And I'm not
Speaker 2: a criminal attorney, but I I would subpoena the phone
Speaker 2: records from Verizon AT and T and see what type
Speaker 2: of records they can give me, and then get an
Speaker 2: expert to go and decipher all the coordinates and stuff
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, I honestly am loving every minute of this
Speaker 1: because it sounds like you get to be a detective.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just.
Speaker 1: Keep looking for things, and I really enjoy that.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And some things are easy to find and some
Speaker 2: things are hard to find, and sometimes you don't find
Speaker 2: things at all, and that's very frustrating. Yeah, dead ends
Speaker 2: that dead ends are extremely frustrating, and they unfortunately happen.
Speaker 2: Like I know you say, don't I said, don't take
Speaker 2: no for an answer, But sometimes like the information just
Speaker 2: literally doesn't exist, Yeah, And that happens. Sometimes people destroy
Speaker 2: the information.
Speaker 1: And then I want to go even further, Yeah, and
Speaker 1: figure out why out did you watch the staircase.
Speaker 2: I did watch the staircase.
Speaker 1: You think he's innocent or guilty.
Speaker 2: I think he's innocent. I believe the owl theory. I thought, wait,
Speaker 2: what the owl theory? Okay, I did not believe the
Speaker 2: owl I believe the owl.
Speaker 1: You really think an owl like scraped up her face,
Speaker 1: and I do made her fall down the stairs.
Speaker 2: It is such an unbelievable set of circumstances, right, but twice,
Speaker 2: well the first.
Speaker 1: Time, so you think there was a murder the first time.
Speaker 2: No, I don't think there was a murder the first time.
Speaker 2: I think that that it just so happened m hmm,
Speaker 2: that he had been there both times or in the proximity.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because the second time it was kind of loose.
Speaker 1: Well also, like where the first time was a loose
Speaker 1: set of circumstance.
Speaker 2: So they they let the evidence of the first time
Speaker 2: come in for the second time right at trial. So
Speaker 2: it's like, did that taint the jury? Like yeah, because
Speaker 2: they were like oh twice yeah, yeah, yeah, and so
Speaker 2: like then you're like, oh, okay, but like its possible,
Speaker 2: it's possible. You think he killed her, I don't, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't, yeah, but I.
Speaker 1: Also am confused, like I think, I know she just
Speaker 1: didn't fall down the stairs, but what if she did
Speaker 1: I do that? But the injuries kind of are they're
Speaker 1: that's the thing.
Speaker 2: They're very very weird injuries, right, Like, look like if
Speaker 2: he struck her on the head with something.
Speaker 1: But then there was the fire poker or whatever it
Speaker 1: was that came back into play. I can't kill anyone
Speaker 1: the fire poker, not with the injuries that they said
Speaker 1: it did, like it just.
Speaker 2: The fire poke. In my mind, that fire poker weighs
Speaker 2: like I don't know, under ten pounds, true, So that's like,
Speaker 2: how is he going to kill her? And like why
Speaker 2: would he grab the fire poker? There's knives and so listen,
Speaker 2: if he did kill her, and I don't think he did,
Speaker 2: it would have been a crime of passion, right, So
Speaker 2: he didn't think, Oh, I'm gonna set this whole thing
Speaker 2: up and kill her and throw her down the stairs
Speaker 2: like that would.
Speaker 1: Be that's a murder. Homicide or crime of passion is
Speaker 1: in the moment, right, This wasn't planned, this wasn't premeditated.
Speaker 2: This was not premeditated, So if he's going pre meditated
Speaker 2: or not premeditated, you think he is going to the
Speaker 2: fireplace to grab the fire poker and not to the
Speaker 2: kitchen to grab a knife.
Speaker 1: You're right, And.
Speaker 2: I think the fireplace was right next to the kitchen, like, dude,
Speaker 2: you grab a knife.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And also it was like a family heirloom apparently,
Speaker 1: which like, first of all, weird family air, very strange,
Speaker 1: like who passes fire pokers? It's weird. Yes, Second of all,
Speaker 1: you're right.
Speaker 2: Like like thin think think about this.
Speaker 1: Also, why would you go up the stairs with the
Speaker 1: fire poker to then make sure she falls down the
Speaker 1: heres and why would you make the injuries on her
Speaker 1: face that obvious?
Speaker 2: Yeah, the whole thing is like it if it was
Speaker 2: if it was premeditated, there were and this was a
Speaker 2: smart guy too, Yeah, there were ways to make it
Speaker 2: look even more like an accident. So true, and like
Speaker 2: instead it's just like bloody mess like yeah, okay, so
Speaker 2: if he did it, it's a crime of passion and
Speaker 2: he didn't go grab a knife. Yeah, And then like
Speaker 2: the whole thing with the micro feathers and the hair,
Speaker 2: like I I think that why not the owl theory,
Speaker 2: it just is so insane to me to believe that
Speaker 2: an owl flew in.
Speaker 1: It's crazy and caused it. It's crazy, but it's not.
Speaker 1: It's not crazy when you like start putting things together,
Speaker 1: because then it starts sounding like, yeah, maybe it was.
Speaker 5: An owl that flew in, Like is that they were
Speaker 5: on a woodsy property, and so okay, let's just like
Speaker 5: weigh it out. So you have an injury to her
Speaker 5: head which didn't fracture her skull, and it's basically the
Speaker 5: only murder in the state that's ever taken place where
Speaker 5: there's head trauma without a fracture of the skull, which
Speaker 5: is like one in I don't want to say one
Speaker 5: in a million, because like there's been less than a
Speaker 5: million murders I would hope in the state. But like,
Speaker 5: there's a small likelihood that that could happen versus a
Speaker 5: small a likelihood that an owl could have done it.
Speaker 5: There's a small likelihood of both of them. So why
Speaker 5: would we say that to the.
Speaker 1: Injury If I'm understanding this correctly, Basically, she fell down
Speaker 1: the stairs. Yeah, she had injuries to her head, but
Speaker 1: her actual like skull didn't break her skull.
Speaker 2: There was no fracture of her skull.
Speaker 1: So she had head trauma, meaning like she got hit
Speaker 1: with something, but it wasn't hard enough to actually break
Speaker 1: her skull.
Speaker 2: Superficial scratches and abrasions and slices in her head, but
Speaker 2: her skull wasn't fractured.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems so weird.
Speaker 2: How would her skull not be fractured if he is
Speaker 2: beating the crap out of her like you first saw?
Speaker 2: Like why would he do it with a fire polker? Yeah,
Speaker 2: and like if he wanted to kill her, like, why
Speaker 2: wouldn't he have grabbed a knife. It's a bloody mess. Anyway,
Speaker 2: he calls nine one one. He's at the scene.
Speaker 1: Okay, I now want to do a murder podcast with
Speaker 1: you because I want to break down some of the
Speaker 1: murders that I have questions on. And I feel like
Speaker 1: you're the one, the intelligent one in the podcast, and
Speaker 1: I'm the one who kind of just like asks a
Speaker 1: bunch of questions that people are like, wow, that guy
Speaker 1: has a lot of questions.
Speaker 2: Well, I pretend to know what I'm talking about, but
Speaker 2: like I, like, you know ninety nine percent of it.
Speaker 2: I know a good amount.
Speaker 1: I know how to ask a good question.
Speaker 2: And I know how to bullshit a good answer.
Speaker 1: So it's perfect but scotty on the cereal one.
Speaker 2: But I'm I'm not so sure if if the standards
Speaker 2: beyond a reasonable doubt, which it is for a criminal case,
Speaker 2: beyond a reasonable build out means like you're really close
Speaker 2: to one hundred percent positive, well see this is not
Speaker 2: one hundred percent but pretty damn close.
Speaker 1: And that's where I felt like he shouldn't have been
Speaker 1: convicted because in my head, I'm like, you still left
Speaker 1: the door completely open. I thought the defense did a
Speaker 1: pretty decent job of leaving, like leaving some seed of
Speaker 1: doubt there.
Speaker 2: The thing is, what they relied on was the seed
Speaker 2: of doubt. But juror's like answers to questions. Right, So
Speaker 2: even though the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt, in
Speaker 2: my case is the standard is more likely than not.
Speaker 2: It's fifty zero point five percent fifty one percent if
Speaker 2: you tip. If I tipped the scales ever so slightly
Speaker 2: in my favor, then I'm supposed to win my case.
Speaker 2: But jurors don't look at it that way. Even though
Speaker 2: the judge tells them that, and I tell them that,
Speaker 2: and I remind them of that, they still look at
Speaker 2: the case and say, okay, but I want answers, right, Okay,
Speaker 2: if he didn't do it, then who did, Like give
Speaker 2: us an answer. People want answers, especially now we have
Speaker 2: so much information flowing our away that like people want
Speaker 2: more and more and more information, and they want answers
Speaker 2: to questions. They don't want open ended things. So like
Speaker 2: in personal injury in civil cases, one of the things
Speaker 2: that it is interesting that's a kind of theme here
Speaker 2: that's happening is like jurors don't just want to know
Speaker 2: why the defendants were negligent or why they and what
Speaker 2: they did which would show that they were negligent. They
Speaker 2: want to know why they did it. They want to
Speaker 2: know what the motive is. So when a big when
Speaker 2: a big drug company releases a drug to the market
Speaker 2: and they make the and and they're selling the product
Speaker 2: even though they know that that specific drug could cause
Speaker 2: a heart heart attack or it can cause DVT or
Speaker 2: blood clots. Even if you prove to a jury that
Speaker 2: they knew, which is you you want your you're supposed
Speaker 2: to win your case, that the jury still wants to
Speaker 2: know why why they released it, why that they released
Speaker 2: it even though they knew it was going to hurt
Speaker 2: people and the and the answer is almost always the
Speaker 2: same thing, which is money.
Speaker 1: Hmm okay, yeah, I mean it's right there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the root of all evil.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Geez, Now I want to find other murders that
Speaker 1: I have questions on. Do you think OJ did it?
Speaker 2: Okay, just checking, Yeah, he did it, and then he
Speaker 2: hired one of the best lawyers to defend because they
Speaker 2: created doubt. Yeah, and they did a great job.
Speaker 1: Yeah. But see that's what I was feeling like in
Speaker 1: the staircase, like that doubt existed, and it was like
Speaker 1: very OJ to me in the sense that like again
Speaker 1: with OJ, after you watched I don't know, did you
Speaker 1: watch the Maiden America Special?
Speaker 2: No so good?
Speaker 1: Yeah, six hours. It's a great six hours of your time.
Speaker 1: Highly recommend ever want to watch it. But you see
Speaker 1: the doubt that they put into it, and they did
Speaker 1: such a good job.
Speaker 2: And also you have to keep in mind that there's
Speaker 2: certain things that work against certain people in certain situations.
Speaker 2: So like the judge who's assigned to the case, they're
Speaker 2: the gatekeeper of information. They tell you what can and
Speaker 2: can't go into a case. So there were certain things
Speaker 2: in the staircase case that came in that maybe another
Speaker 2: judge wouldn't have let in true, and that could have
Speaker 2: changed his possible conviction or the outcome of the case.
Speaker 1: Plus it's a high profile case.
Speaker 2: But with OJ he had Johnny Cochran, who's like now
Speaker 2: unfortunately passed away, but was like a living legend when
Speaker 2: he was in five, like was the best attorney that
Speaker 2: like money could buy at the feeling, and he had
Speaker 2: an entire team of lawyers.
Speaker 1: True.
Speaker 2: So when you take that, even if you're to look
Speaker 2: at the guy from the staircase who still had a
Speaker 2: lot of money, it wasn't you know, six lawyers deep.
Speaker 2: It was two or three of them. But still, you know,
Speaker 2: let me just say this before like we finish this,
Speaker 2: because I've.
Speaker 1: Had one more commercial and then I have another question.
Speaker 2: I have so many questions. I would be remissed to say,
Speaker 2: and it would be wrong to say if I didn't
Speaker 2: include the amount of people who don't get good legal
Speaker 2: representation that the United States. And that's not a political
Speaker 2: point I'm making. It's the god's honest truth that many
Speaker 2: of the people that are arrested for certain crimes happen
Speaker 2: to be people of that are lower class and can't
Speaker 2: afford legal representation. They end up with a legal aid
Speaker 2: attorney who are great attorneys, but they're bombarded with cases
Speaker 2: and they don't necessarily get the defense that they deserve
Speaker 2: and end up taking please even if they didn't do it,
Speaker 2: and they could, And a lot of people end up
Speaker 2: in jail. Not a lot of people, but people end
Speaker 2: up in jail enough people where it's like where it's
Speaker 2: a problem exactly where they didn't they didn't do it,
Speaker 2: but they don't have the money to put on a
Speaker 2: proper defense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it kind of sounds like attorneys. It's
Speaker 1: kind of a lot about like storytelling, Like you have
Speaker 1: to figure out how you're going to put on not
Speaker 1: necessarily a show, but a show to a degree where
Speaker 1: it's like this is the this is what you've given me,
Speaker 1: and then I have to kind of improve it out
Speaker 1: and say like they could have been here, they could
Speaker 1: have done this, and creating the narrative where it's not
Speaker 1: just a like on paper just say like with an
Speaker 1: OJ clearly killed. However, once I start introducing all these things,
Speaker 1: you can't say that because so it's funny, it's now
Speaker 1: all these pieces in the puzzle.
Speaker 2: You just mentioned two really key words right there, And
Speaker 2: this is what makes a great trial attorney is storytelling
Speaker 2: and improv. Improv is extremely important. You go into a
Speaker 2: trial and you don't know really what's gonna happen. The
Speaker 2: judge could let information in or not let information in.
Speaker 2: You can have a witness that lies on the stand.
Speaker 2: You could have ainess that give you they give you
Speaker 2: a yeah, So you need to be prepared for everything.
Speaker 2: But keep in mind, like at the same time, you're
Speaker 2: telling a story from the beginning to the end, yea.
Speaker 2: And the story's got to make sense. And people are
Speaker 2: like a story. When you give somebody information and you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: it's all over the place and you're disorganized and you're
Speaker 2: just feeding them information, people can't understand or comprehend it.
Speaker 2: But when you tell them within the bounds of a story,
Speaker 2: they understand what's going on. And so storytelling is probably
Speaker 2: the greatest strength of a trial attorney. And I like
Speaker 2: to think I'm an okay storyteller. I don't know, I
Speaker 2: could be terrible for all I know, but.
Speaker 1: No, I've been fascinating this whole time, Like I have
Speaker 1: so many questions and I feel like they're just able
Speaker 1: to be answered. It's great because it's like, you know
Speaker 1: what they.
Speaker 2: Do, I'm a jack of all trades, master of none. Listen.
Speaker 1: I love it because there's so many murder cases that
Speaker 1: have questions on. I'm gonna now text you after I
Speaker 1: watch Murder Specials. Sure there's a that I would like
Speaker 1: to do some investigating into. I actually have one case
Speaker 1: in particular, Yeah, that I've heard through another friend who's
Speaker 1: an attorney, that they know the person did it and
Speaker 1: they think there's some shady business going on behind the scenes.
Speaker 2: So that's definitely possible. Also, can I tell you another
Speaker 2: really good resource to like bounce stuff off of, Like
Speaker 2: the reddit boards for these things are fantastic. Really, yeah,
Speaker 2: they're great. I mean if you go on too, like
Speaker 2: the staircase reddit board, it's it's so good. And some
Speaker 2: of the people on there, you're you're like, oh, like
Speaker 2: it's just someone like lurking on Reddit and some idiot
Speaker 2: Like No, there's people that get obsessed, yeah, with these.
Speaker 1: Shows and with the forensic analysis.
Speaker 2: And they do their own and some of the things
Speaker 2: that they come up with are incredible, like absolutely, and
Speaker 2: these are people that are just like true crime fans. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so the boards are an excellent resource if you are
Speaker 2: watching a show and you want to learn more, it's
Speaker 2: the reddit.
Speaker 1: Go to Reddit. Reddit's awesome, I'm telling you. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a good one.
Speaker 2: I love Reddit.
Speaker 1: Same.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: In between the trolls and weird comments, you get you
Speaker 1: get some good resources.
Speaker 2: I'll say that you got to go to the right
Speaker 2: red Yeah, and it's.
Speaker 1: A search, but you get there.
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, I'm now shocked that you didn't win Survivor.
Speaker 1: I feel like you're a great storyteller.
Speaker 2: You saw my season I did. It was I had
Speaker 2: a difficult boot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what happened with yours?
Speaker 2: We were at a four to four split and they
Speaker 2: gave a one of my enemies a vote block, and
Speaker 2: she blocked my vote and then it turned it into
Speaker 2: a four to three and then I got voted off.
Speaker 2: Yeah that ain't right, No, it was, it was. It was.
Speaker 2: It was a laughable way to go at because even
Speaker 2: when the votes were being read, I was just laughing
Speaker 2: to myself. I was like, what am I supposed to
Speaker 2: do in this situation?
Speaker 1: What are your chances?
Speaker 2: It was a four to four split For people that
Speaker 2: don't know, and uh, there was a swap, and I
Speaker 2: was with part of my original four and then four
Speaker 2: people on the other side, and we made a tribe
Speaker 2: of eight. And it was at four to four, and
Speaker 2: we had convinced the other tribe to at least two
Speaker 2: of them to switch over to us immediately, so it
Speaker 2: was gonna be six to two or seven to one.
Speaker 2: But then they gave her the vote block, and then
Speaker 2: the numbershipped it quickly and they were like, oh, we
Speaker 2: could beat them now, like we're not gonna flip.
Speaker 1: Oh that sucks.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I don't love that.
Speaker 1: I feel like you would have bline.
Speaker 2: Well, you're best friends with the guy that did.
Speaker 1: Win, Yeah, yeah, But I mean I feel like that
Speaker 1: would have been an interesting final two between you two.
Speaker 2: Oh, it would have been really fun to go back
Speaker 2: and forth in terms of who played a better game.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because Tommy can argue he was.
Speaker 2: Scared of me.
Speaker 1: Oh he was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was scared of you, he said. He says
Speaker 2: it to this day. Thank god you got voted off
Speaker 2: there so I didn't have to vote you off because
Speaker 2: it could have ruined our friendship. You know, Tommy and
Speaker 2: I are very close to Yeah, like, but geez, I
Speaker 2: don't know. You never know who could have won. But
Speaker 2: I started off the game really poorly, really really poorly.
Speaker 2: I made some mistakes at the beginning of the game,
Speaker 2: and so I would have had a good story to
Speaker 2: tell at the end and said I was the easiest
Speaker 2: first vote ever and you can let me stick around.
Speaker 2: And now I'm here. Yeah, and like I'm not here
Speaker 2: just because I like roade coattails, like you all came
Speaker 2: to me for advice, like I pulled my strings and
Speaker 2: I ended up sitting here.
Speaker 1: Geez. But well, if there's ever another second, chances and
Speaker 1: I feel like you'd be perfect for it. No chance,
Speaker 1: no chance, zero chance, zero chance. Okay, well my brain,
Speaker 1: you can have my spot. Okay, great, Yes, well I
Speaker 1: can't even get on, so maybe one.
Speaker 2: Of these one day one. Don't give up.
Speaker 1: You're so true.
Speaker 2: Don't give up.
Speaker 1: Yeah it's only been five years, but it's fine.
Speaker 2: Don't give up.
Speaker 1: But no, this was super interesting, Yeah, extremely fascinating.
Speaker 2: I hope you enjoyed the story.
Speaker 1: I need murder cases, yeah, to bring up to you now, okay,
Speaker 1: because I want to see it broken down for me.
Speaker 2: Okay, I know something is guilty.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to know why it's guilty, and if
Speaker 1: it's not guilty, I want to know why. Yeah, because
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be the idiot who sees it as the
Speaker 1: cut and dry one and I need the Netflix documentary
Speaker 1: to it down. But even Netflix documentaries, I have to say,
Speaker 1: sometimes they get a little carried away.
Speaker 2: Yes, And also one of the issues when it comes
Speaker 2: to like crime is you have people that are really
Speaker 2: passionate one side or another side, right, and it's very
Speaker 2: difficult for some people to take an honest look at
Speaker 2: the facts and make a determination of like true will happened. So, like,
Speaker 2: one of my friends is a public defender, and if
Speaker 2: she sat in this chair right now and she explained
Speaker 2: everything to you, she would have been like, there's no
Speaker 2: way he did it, blah, and like would have like
Speaker 2: argued it and argued it passionately and eloquently. But at
Speaker 2: the same time she would it would have been the
Speaker 2: under there would have been underpinnings of bias, right, And
Speaker 2: so I'm a little step away from it. I don't
Speaker 2: really do criminal stuff. I do injury cases. So like
Speaker 2: I like to always take a look at like, Okay,
Speaker 2: these are the facts, what's the law, what's the likelihood
Speaker 2: of certain things happening, rather than just to argue a
Speaker 2: position because that's my occupation or job.
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because law is kind of like a
Speaker 1: doctor in that regard that you kind of pick what
Speaker 1: you like. Yes, in like, are you more of a
Speaker 1: contract lawyer, are you more of like an injury attorney?
Speaker 1: Or do you want to do more public defending because
Speaker 1: the public defender is probably extremely different arguing style, storytelling,
Speaker 1: all that from what you do.
Speaker 2: Yes, So you see I'm battling against the bias of
Speaker 2: the public. Even when we were recording with Scotty, I
Speaker 2: hear ambulance chaser and all these things. Yes, right, And
Speaker 2: everyone thinks that a plaintiff in a personal injury case
Speaker 2: is lying. So it's very interesting like.
Speaker 1: During your starting off like a step behind.
Speaker 2: Always starting a step behind, crazy, and so you have
Speaker 2: to and the defendants use that to their advantage.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: The main defense on almost all these cases are that
Speaker 2: my clients are liars, cheats, and frauds. Geez, you want
Speaker 2: to know how I address that? On my opening statement,
Speaker 2: I stand up and say, I'm just going to tell you.
Speaker 2: I don't know what the defense is going to say
Speaker 2: in this case, but I have a feeling. Their defense
Speaker 2: is going to be that my client's a liar, a cheat,
Speaker 2: and a fraud. So that's what this case is going
Speaker 2: to come down to. So you need to decide that
Speaker 2: for yourself. Yeah, like just call it out, Like they're
Speaker 2: not gonna come up and stand up and say that
Speaker 2: she's a liar, a cheat or a fraud, but you
Speaker 2: better read between the lines, and that's what they're gonna
Speaker 2: be telling you exactly. So you have to decide are
Speaker 2: they lying or are they cheating because and I for them,
Speaker 2: I submit to you that they're not. But that's gonna
Speaker 2: be up up to you to decide.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Wow, wow, wow, fun stuff.
Speaker 1: I love this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really fun.
Speaker 1: This was so fine.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I love being a lawyer, Yes, love it so fine.
Speaker 1: And I like being able to have a podcast, so
Speaker 1: this is great.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, if there's any murder that you could think of
Speaker 1: that you want maybe Jason to break down, yeah, please
Speaker 1: send it or post it in the comments below if
Speaker 1: you aren't watching on YouTube, or send a DM whatever, because.
Speaker 2: Even civil cases like sometimes those like you know, there's
Speaker 2: businesses with families and who's right and who's wrong and
Speaker 2: things like all all these things are interesting, and I
Speaker 2: think it's really helpful to just like spread knowledge so
Speaker 2: people have like a real, actual understanding of what's going on.
Speaker 1: Yes. So again, I'm like pitbullish in that way where
Speaker 1: it's like, if there's what you're saying, like a crack
Speaker 1: of doubt, I want to figure it out. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: so this helps me because I feel like I now
Speaker 1: believe the owl theory could very much be true.
Speaker 2: Why not? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Why not?
Speaker 2: Why not?
Speaker 1: Why not?
Speaker 2: I'm like, I think that would raise sufficient reasonable doubt
Speaker 2: if it had been presented properly to a jury.
Speaker 1: Wow, and let's end it there. Yep, thank you guys
Speaker 1: so much for listening. Watch the subscribe button somewhere on YouTube,
Speaker 1: like and comment you know all the things the Serial
Speaker 1: Killers PC. We're gonna be back on Monday. I don't
Speaker 1: know with what episode. That's Scott's job, but yeah, thank
Speaker 1: you for another bonus episode.
Speaker 2: Jason, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: And yeah, we'll do a murder one again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or maybe we'll do a Muppets one. Yes, we
Speaker 2: don't know where it's gonna go.
Speaker 1: It's gonna go south real quick. Something tells me we're
Speaker 1: gonna figure it out all right, See that's that diabetes
Speaker 1: that sounds fun. Alright, we're gonna end there.