WEBVTT - Cults and Murder Chats on a Friday

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<v Speaker 1>This is now recording. Great, Hi everybody, welcome to I

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<v Speaker 1>guess maybe a bonus episode.

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<v Speaker 2>We don't know what this is.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, really, but Jason's back and he had a really

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<v Speaker 1>fun story he wanted to tell.

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<v Speaker 2>So and just by the origin, so people understand Andrew

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<v Speaker 2>has no idea of the story I'm about to tell.

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<v Speaker 1>Zero clue. You sent me a picture of a cult

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<v Speaker 1>what you thought was the Nexium cult, yeah, which like

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<v Speaker 1>fascinated by. And Scott's not really super into cults, so

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<v Speaker 1>I was like, I want to hear the story about

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<v Speaker 1>the cult.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, So, and just so you know, I have maybe

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<v Speaker 2>told the story to one or two other people, So

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<v Speaker 2>I don't even know if it's even a good story,

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<v Speaker 2>but I hope, I hope it is right. Okay, go,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm ready when pandemic happens. March of twenty twenty, me

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<v Speaker 2>and my wife live in New York City on the

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<v Speaker 2>Upper East Side. We moved out of the city temporarily,

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<v Speaker 2>and then we moved back into the city June first

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<v Speaker 2>of twenty twenty. Now were you where were you in

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<v Speaker 2>June first, twenty twenty.

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<v Speaker 1>I just moved back to Jersey City because I went

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<v Speaker 1>I moved to my parents when the pandemics happened.

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<v Speaker 2>Like most people did.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and then I moved back in June.

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<v Speaker 2>So New York City at that time was like it

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<v Speaker 2>was eerily dead, like most people. Keep in mind, New

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<v Speaker 2>York City was the epicenter, so everyone moved out. But

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<v Speaker 2>what happened was I had my own business and I

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<v Speaker 2>needed to come in and I had employees. So June first,

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<v Speaker 2>I moved back into the city. I reopened my office

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<v Speaker 2>and believe it or not, we started going in legally

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<v Speaker 2>because they said that we could. So. But every night,

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<v Speaker 2>when the sun would set, you could see how vacant

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<v Speaker 2>the buildings were. Yeah, and especially the building surrounding me.

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<v Speaker 2>So I live on the twelfth floor, and across the

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<v Speaker 2>street from me, there's a really fancy building, really fancy,

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<v Speaker 2>and in that building, almost all of the apartments were dark,

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<v Speaker 2>aside from the few that were there. And like we

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<v Speaker 2>were like, oh, those are our friends, those are our

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<v Speaker 2>pandemic friends. There are one apartment that was right across

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<v Speaker 2>and one floor up. There was always like one individual

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<v Speaker 2>person in that apartment, okay, okay, and like the person

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<v Speaker 2>like when like they didn't really come out on their

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<v Speaker 2>balcony that much and like you can only just like

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<v Speaker 2>kind of see their silhouette. So and like sometimes they'd

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<v Speaker 2>be like staring and because there was nothing that there

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<v Speaker 2>was nothing going on, they like stare into our apartment

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<v Speaker 2>and stuff. Yeah, okay, so we're just like that is

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<v Speaker 2>the creepiest thing in the world. It's just this one

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<v Speaker 2>guy that's at this apartment throughout the pandemic.

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<v Speaker 1>And they would just be like standing on their balcony just.

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<v Speaker 2>Like like almost like yeah, they have a balcony and

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<v Speaker 2>then there's like a window, like I would see them

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<v Speaker 2>like staring out just like and we were probably one

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<v Speaker 2>of one of the only apartments in our building that

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<v Speaker 2>was occupied, so like we would stare at them, they

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<v Speaker 2>would stare back at us, or he would and so okay,

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty one, things start to get better in New

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<v Speaker 2>York City. Things start to open up, and there's now

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<v Speaker 2>more people at that apartment little by little. So first

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<v Speaker 2>there was two, then it was three, and then like

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<v Speaker 2>this year especially, there was times where there was like ten, eleven,

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<v Speaker 2>twelve people at the apartment, okay at one time, at

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<v Speaker 2>like one time, and the apartment's not like ghy, it's

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<v Speaker 2>a nice apartment. Maybe a two bedroom, but like, why

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<v Speaker 2>are there so many people? Why are there? It would

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<v Speaker 2>be like a Tuesday night, and then like Wednesday morning,

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<v Speaker 2>like we would wake up and see and there'd be

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<v Speaker 2>like four or five people like on the balcony, so

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<v Speaker 2>like people were staying over at that apartment, and like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>so my wife is also a big cult person. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and so she and I would hypothesize what that particular

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<v Speaker 2>apartment was and we both came to the same conclusion

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<v Speaker 2>that it's got to be a cult.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh say less, I mean why not?

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<v Speaker 2>Right? Yeah, So it's very strange, weird amounts of people

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<v Speaker 2>and like weird looking people too, I should I should

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<v Speaker 2>say that, very strange looking people. So last week, after

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<v Speaker 2>we've had maybe fifty dinnertime conversations of talking about the

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<v Speaker 2>cult across the way, which we thought was maybe like

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<v Speaker 2>next Seum or like one of those big cults that

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<v Speaker 2>that there was like Netflix specials on. Yeah, we're like.

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, I'm getting to the bottom of this.

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<v Speaker 2>I need to know what this.

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<v Speaker 1>Is, who lives there, what's going on?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, So here's what I did, all right, And you

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<v Speaker 2>should know I'm a lawyer by trade, so I'm pretty

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<v Speaker 2>good at like investigating things. Yes, So the first off,

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<v Speaker 2>we didn't even know what the apartment number was of

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<v Speaker 2>the building, so like we didn't know if it was

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<v Speaker 2>like apartment like thirteen or or whatever. So the first

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<v Speaker 2>thing we did, I'm gonna take you through my steps here, Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>So I went to street easy and I figured out

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<v Speaker 2>the apartment straight across the way, okay, which was the

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<v Speaker 2>apartment under theirs And I figured out that was apartment

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, twelve s, let's call it. So we're like, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>we need to we know that the apartment above is

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<v Speaker 2>likely apartment thirteen S. So I found the I ended

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<v Speaker 2>up using street easy, which is a hold up.

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<v Speaker 1>They have thirteen floors.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, this is a big building. They probably have, Like I.

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<v Speaker 1>Thought there were no thirteen floors and buildings.

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<v Speaker 2>I think there is a thirteenth floor in this building. Weird.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, already I'm hooked.

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<v Speaker 2>So the building, I should tell you, takes up like

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<v Speaker 2>a full New York City block. It's a big building

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<v Speaker 2>and it probably has maybe eighteen nineteen floors in the building.

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<v Speaker 2>There's three separate towers. So it's a really big building

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<v Speaker 2>and a really fancy building. White glove like Dorman like

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<v Speaker 2>lots of amenities, you name, it's the extremely expensive extremely Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>So I figure out what the apartment number is by

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<v Speaker 2>using street Easy, which is a basically a Zillo for

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<v Speaker 2>New York City. Yeah, okay, So I now have the

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<v Speaker 2>apartment number. So then I go into the New York

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<v Speaker 2>City property records okay, and I searched there quite a

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<v Speaker 2>bit for things, and I was able to find that

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<v Speaker 2>apartment and that apartment which is owned by an LLC

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<v Speaker 2>called my Nest LLC. Okay, my Nest ELLC. And if

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<v Speaker 2>you're unfamiliar with what goes love with what goes on

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<v Speaker 2>in New York City, so like a lot of people,

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<v Speaker 2>like rich people don't want to put their names on

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<v Speaker 2>individual apartments, so they make these like fake LLCs like

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<v Speaker 2>that are just like for the purposes of owning the

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<v Speaker 2>apartments to avoid liability.

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<v Speaker 1>Of like a shell company.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a shell company, so it's my Nest LLC. So

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<v Speaker 2>then I'm like, okay, my Nest LLC, what is this?

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<v Speaker 2>So then I continue searching the property records and then

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<v Speaker 2>I search my Nest LLC to see if they own

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<v Speaker 2>any additional properties in New York City, they owned one

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<v Speaker 2>other apartment, so this that apartment's on sixty sixth Street.

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<v Speaker 2>They owned an apartment on sixty ninth Street, Okay, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>So I was like, what is going on here? They

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<v Speaker 2>owned two separate apartments sixty six sixty ninth. This is weird. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So then I go into the actual like transfer of

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<v Speaker 2>the deeds and of on the transfer of the deeds

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<v Speaker 2>for the individual apartment on sixty six, which is the

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<v Speaker 2>apartment that's across the way from us. I see a

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<v Speaker 2>name of It's very strange because the deed and if

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<v Speaker 2>you wanted to serve the LLC, oh I missed a

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<v Speaker 2>step here. So then I went to the New York

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<v Speaker 2>State Entity Department of State website to figure out who

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<v Speaker 2>owns that LLC MYSTLLC. And this all just.

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<v Speaker 1>Came because you just were like, I'm gonna get to

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<v Speaker 1>the bottom of this.

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<v Speaker 2>I needed to get I needed we needed to know.

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<v Speaker 2>This had been going on for years, like once or

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<v Speaker 2>twice a week, me and my wife would be like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>the having a party again, yeah, the cult, Yeah, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>who's there?

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<v Speaker 1>Why are people there?

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<v Speaker 2>So then the listing on the state's website for who

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<v Speaker 2>owned the corporation didn't say who owned it, but it

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<v Speaker 2>gave a service address of somebody a financial company in

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<v Speaker 2>Los Angeles, California, like a financial advisor. And that financial

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<v Speaker 2>advisor's name was Marilyn Anderson, like financial services. Okay. So

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<v Speaker 2>then I google Marilyn Anderson financial Services and I come

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<v Speaker 2>to this website and I find this woman, Marilyn Anderson,

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<v Speaker 2>and she had written a book called How to Live

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<v Speaker 2>Like a Millionaire Without having a million dollars okay, And

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know if this is gonna come up, but

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<v Speaker 2>she is very quirky.

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<v Speaker 3>Have to be a millionaire to refod prescriptions these days,

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<v Speaker 3>and that's even with insurance. So I checked out ways

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<v Speaker 3>to get my pills for less. You might have high

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<v Speaker 3>cholesterol or diabetes, or.

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<v Speaker 2>She might have broken so it's like a health cult

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<v Speaker 2>so like or like No, that was just like an

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<v Speaker 2>example of like, oh, how do you get your prescriptions

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<v Speaker 2>for cheaper? Okay?

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<v Speaker 1>So hold on, Yeah, So the apartment, it goes back

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<v Speaker 1>to my Nest LLC LLC. They bought this apartment on

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<v Speaker 1>sixty six and they own an apartment on sixty nine.

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<v Speaker 1>Correct under when you looked into my Nest, you found

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<v Speaker 1>out the person that bought the apartments or what the

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<v Speaker 1>entity is registered to the person is this woman? Okay, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>so then hold up and she's Los Angeles Base.

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<v Speaker 2>And she's Los Angeles Base. She calls herself an author,

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<v Speaker 2>and she.

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<v Speaker 1>Can I see a picture?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, actually I could show you that video.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my god. Okay, did you did you look at

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<v Speaker 1>the comments on YouTube? Of course you did, why would

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<v Speaker 1>you wait?

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<v Speaker 2>So then I searched further into Marilyn Anderson, and then

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<v Speaker 2>I found a different Marilyn Anderson. So already my mind

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<v Speaker 2>is like, okay, this is some like how to like

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<v Speaker 2>live like a millionaire, and all these like people are

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<v Speaker 2>piled up into this really expensive apartment and they're like

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<v Speaker 2>living like a millionaire without like living. So but then

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<v Speaker 2>I found a different Maryland. Okay, and the Maryland was

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<v Speaker 2>a legitimate financial advisor. So this crazy kooky person is

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<v Speaker 2>not this has nothing to do.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh okay. So Maryland doesn't live there, She does not

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<v Speaker 1>live there. Does she come up anymore in the story.

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<v Speaker 2>She does not, But another Marilyn Anderson does.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, that's fair.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, So then there's this other Marilyn Anderson who has

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<v Speaker 2>a legitimate financial company, and I found the company, and

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<v Speaker 2>I found her on LinkedIn. Got the real Marilyn Andrews.

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<v Speaker 1>Got It.

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<v Speaker 2>I just was taking into like a dead end, as

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<v Speaker 2>we called got it.

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<v Speaker 1>Got it yepp Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm like, okay, like that ended up being a

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<v Speaker 2>dead end too. I looked her up on LinkedIn. She's

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<v Speaker 2>like a private equity financial advisor for people in Los Angeles, California,

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<v Speaker 2>because she calls it like very boutiqui and for like

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<v Speaker 2>very like famous rich people.

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<v Speaker 1>It's got it.

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<v Speaker 2>So I was like okay, like I couldn't get any

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<v Speaker 2>other information. So then I started like really parsing through

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<v Speaker 2>the property records.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I was gonna ask you that would be my

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<v Speaker 1>next question, just would figure out when did this apartment

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<v Speaker 1>become my nests sod unquote.

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<v Speaker 2>So that apartment though, that my nest apartment was bought

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<v Speaker 2>maybe in like twenty sixteen or twenty seventeen.

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<v Speaker 1>Also, I have a side question, yes, And I feel

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<v Speaker 1>you're a good person ask for this. It's nice because

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<v Speaker 1>usually when I ask Scott questions, like we just say

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know, yeah, but I feel like, you know, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>this is great. Yes, So I as a company, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>like just say Serial Killers LLC. Correct, we could buy

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<v Speaker 1>an apartment, correct, And then basically what we could do, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>is use that and then count it as a loss

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<v Speaker 1>because we bought property. But then I don't know, for

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<v Speaker 1>tax reasons, you could almost like finagle it where it's

0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:53.079
<v Speaker 1>like oh, wow.

0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:55.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, if you're a property owner and you have a

0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:59.240
<v Speaker 2>mortgage and a property, you could there's ways to deduct

0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:02.040
<v Speaker 2>part of that mortgage from Yes.

0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:03.479
<v Speaker 1>So we could say it's like our headquarters.

0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:05.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and then and then you're taking you there's a

0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:08.480
<v Speaker 2>deduction of a maximum of seve hundred and fifty thousand dollars.

0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:10.720
<v Speaker 1>So we could keep buying properties and saying that we're

0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:12.439
<v Speaker 1>all the mortgages and all this other stuff.

0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:14.080
<v Speaker 2>Well, eventually a bank would be like, oh, we're not

0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:16.240
<v Speaker 2>going to give you more than one one would hope yes, Okay,

0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:21.199
<v Speaker 2>so now we that. So I start parsing through the

0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:24.800
<v Speaker 2>property records, and every single address that's even on the

0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:28.559
<v Speaker 2>property records goes back to this financial firm in Los Angeles.

0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:32.360
<v Speaker 2>So they're really doing a crazy job at hiding who

0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:35.000
<v Speaker 2>owns my nest all see, and who owns this property.

0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:38.320
<v Speaker 2>But deep in one of the financial records I saw

0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:42.160
<v Speaker 2>this address and it said, keep in mind this property

0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.360
<v Speaker 2>is a two hundred East sixty six. They also own

0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:48.440
<v Speaker 2>a property a two hundred East sixty ninth. And then

0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:50.520
<v Speaker 2>really deep in the records, I saw this address of

0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:55.800
<v Speaker 2>two twenty five East sixty seventh Street. Hold up a

0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:59.440
<v Speaker 2>third property, a third property, and this was not readily

0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:01.720
<v Speaker 2>available in You really had to go into the property

0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:04.319
<v Speaker 2>records to find this. Okay, okay, and this just happened

0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:05.560
<v Speaker 2>to be on one of the PaperWorks that you were

0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:07.760
<v Speaker 2>going through. Yeah, because I was like really getting into it,

0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:09.880
<v Speaker 2>I was like, there has to be another address somewhere.

0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.920
<v Speaker 2>So then I look up the property records for two

0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:16.400
<v Speaker 2>twenty five East sixty seventh Street. Well, first I go

0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:19.240
<v Speaker 2>to street Easy or Google street Feel when I look,

0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:21.840
<v Speaker 2>and it's a carriage house in New York City. So

0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:23.000
<v Speaker 2>it's like a three.

0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:26.880
<v Speaker 1>Or four level like a brownstone, like beautiful brownskot it

0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:31.240
<v Speaker 1>so super expensive, like New York, those things are insanely priced,

0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:32.360
<v Speaker 1>like at least ten million.

0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:36.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, and this one's in like a very nice neighborhood.

0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:38.559
<v Speaker 2>It's properly East type. Yeah, it's probably like fifteen or

0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:39.880
<v Speaker 2>twenty million, and it's big.

0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:41.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we're talking money.

0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:45.600
<v Speaker 2>Money, yes, Okay. So I going look and I saw

0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:48.560
<v Speaker 2>that there was some transfers of that piece of property

0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:51.320
<v Speaker 2>between like two thousand and two, two thousand and three

0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:55.000
<v Speaker 2>to like the last one might have been like twenty eighteen, okay.

0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:58.160
<v Speaker 2>And so when I start going through the records, I

0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:00.760
<v Speaker 2>see that there's a transfer of the property from A

0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:05.400
<v Speaker 2>James Henson to A what's the name. I got to

0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:07.000
<v Speaker 2>figure out the name and make sure I have all

0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:09.160
<v Speaker 2>my facts correct. Hold up.

0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:13.840
<v Speaker 1>So from this random address being on the original property

0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:17.360
<v Speaker 1>for the sixty sixth one, yes, you then went to

0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:21.760
<v Speaker 1>the this address on sixty seventh correct, because why would they?

0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:23.960
<v Speaker 1>Why would so, Mike, this is a dumb question, but

0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:27.120
<v Speaker 1>I feel like I'm really gonna dumb this down. Why

0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:29.680
<v Speaker 1>would the sixty seventh Street address be on there?

0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. And that's what was confusing, because in

0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:35.480
<v Speaker 2>all the other documents and the transfers, like they were

0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:38.920
<v Speaker 2>using that Los Angeles address. But maybe someone said at

0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.480
<v Speaker 2>some point you need to have an actual address of it.

0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:44.360
<v Speaker 2>Can't just be this financial person like like, we want

0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:46.680
<v Speaker 2>to put an actual address onto this document.

0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:49.080
<v Speaker 1>For the same reasons that I was talking at before,

0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:50.719
<v Speaker 1>because after a while, the banks are going to ask

0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:53.160
<v Speaker 1>what is this financial company doing with all these properties?

0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:56.079
<v Speaker 2>Exactly? So ready, I see a couple of different transfers

0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:59.839
<v Speaker 2>of this property. One was from a James Henson to

0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:04.680
<v Speaker 2>a Jane Henson, and then a Jane Henson to some

0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:08.600
<v Speaker 2>other LLC. And then when when Jane Henson and the

0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:12.320
<v Speaker 2>transfer so from James Henson to the other Henson, it

0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:15.559
<v Speaker 2>was a there was zero dollars exchange from Jane Henson

0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:18.000
<v Speaker 2>to this new LLC. It was like three and a

0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:21.880
<v Speaker 2>half million dollars, which is significantly undervalue for the tarty.

0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:25.240
<v Speaker 2>And then that entity transferred it to another entity called

0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:28.840
<v Speaker 2>like my carriage house or carriage house annex LLC.

0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay, all right, so now, and this is all taking

0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:35.360
<v Speaker 1>place around the same time as the twenty sixteen property.

0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:38.840
<v Speaker 2>Generally things are taking like around the same time.

0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:41.200
<v Speaker 1>So within the past ten years, correct, they pick up

0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:43.200
<v Speaker 1>the sixty sixth Street one, they pick up the sixty

0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:46.400
<v Speaker 1>ninth Street one, and then this mysterious sixty seventh Street

0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:51.080
<v Speaker 1>property is transferred for considerably underpriced in this exact same

0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:51.880
<v Speaker 1>time exactly.

0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:54.400
<v Speaker 2>But it looked like that sixty seventh Street property was

0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.600
<v Speaker 2>owned within those same entities or those same people for

0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.480
<v Speaker 2>a very long period to pass around a month, correct,

0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:02.960
<v Speaker 2>passed around from different entities and different people.

0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:04.560
<v Speaker 1>Interesting.

0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:08.440
<v Speaker 2>Ready, yeah, this is where it comes full circle. Yeah,

0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:11.920
<v Speaker 2>so we start, my me and my wife start to

0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:15.600
<v Speaker 2>look at two twenty five East sixty seventh Street. I

0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:17.960
<v Speaker 2>believe is the address. Let me just double check that.

0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:21.360
<v Speaker 1>And this is the carriage house. This is the carriage house,

0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:24.160
<v Speaker 1>the random carriage house that you found on a financial

0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:27.080
<v Speaker 1>document exactly that cracked open the whole thing.

0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:32.360
<v Speaker 2>Yes, it is two twenty five East sixty seventh Street. Okay,

0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:35.520
<v Speaker 2>So two twenty five East sixty seventh Street, as we

0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:40.160
<v Speaker 2>looked into it was ready for it. Yeah, it was.

0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:44.080
<v Speaker 2>It belonged to Jim Henson the Muppets, the creator of

0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:47.040
<v Speaker 2>the Muppets and of Sesame Street. And it was his

0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:52.760
<v Speaker 2>workshop where he had developed many of the Muppet and

0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:54.320
<v Speaker 2>Sesame Street characters.

0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:55.320
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:59.600
<v Speaker 2>And so now that when he before he died, he

0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:02.560
<v Speaker 2>trans for that property to his wife. His wife then

0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:05.600
<v Speaker 2>transferred that property to his estate, and then his estate

0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:08.120
<v Speaker 2>transferred that property to a separate project that's run by

0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:12.240
<v Speaker 2>his daughter. And it's called the carriage House annex. Okay,

0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:17.240
<v Speaker 2>And they give like grants and works the different puppeteers

0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:22.640
<v Speaker 2>that are promoting the arts of puppetry. Oh okay, yeah,

0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:26.720
<v Speaker 2>so then we're like, what what is going on? Yeah,

0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:29.800
<v Speaker 2>and then we pulled it all together the apartment across

0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:34.800
<v Speaker 2>the way, which is owned by my Nest LLC Big

0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:40.520
<v Speaker 2>Bird Nest. Oh. Yeah, what we thought was the Nexium

0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:43.600
<v Speaker 2>cult across the way actually is just a group of

0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:49.080
<v Speaker 2>puppeteers and they are probably such nice, sweet people that

0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:50.720
<v Speaker 2>probably don't have a lot of money, because I don't

0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:52.040
<v Speaker 2>think there's a lot of money and puppeteering.

0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:53.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean I feel like you really got to

0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:55.119
<v Speaker 1>be at the top to be a good puppeteer.

0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:59.080
<v Speaker 2>Yes, And so across the way there, it's kind of

0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:03.520
<v Speaker 2>like a cult. There's a cult of puppet tears. Yeah.

0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:06.600
<v Speaker 2>And from us thinking that this was like the creepiest,

0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:08.199
<v Speaker 2>weirdest thing in the world is like the most like

0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:09.400
<v Speaker 2>lovely nice thing.

0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:09.919
<v Speaker 3>I know.

0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:13.199
<v Speaker 1>It's almost like you found like a nice uh you

0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:15.240
<v Speaker 1>wrapped it up nicely. Like here I was. I was

0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:18.320
<v Speaker 1>waiting for the murder, No murder, I swear I was

0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:19.760
<v Speaker 1>expecting a murder in the carriage house.

0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:21.359
<v Speaker 2>Can I tell where you where we're at right right

0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:24.199
<v Speaker 2>right now, yeah, because like that can't be it for me.

0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:26.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, it can't be. Like I need to know

0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:29.840
<v Speaker 1>more of what is going Yeah, like a scientology involved.

0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:33.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so it is no, no, no, there's no scientology involved.

0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:36.679
<v Speaker 2>So a few things. So I walked past the and

0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:38.439
<v Speaker 2>I have a one and a half year old, so, like,

0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:40.520
<v Speaker 2>we watch a lot of sesame straight on your house.

0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:42.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I'm a Muppets fan ever since I was

0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:43.120
<v Speaker 2>a kid.

0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:45.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, my goddaughter is obsessed with Elma.

0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:49.639
<v Speaker 2>So I walked past the house and this is what

0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:51.359
<v Speaker 2>the house looks like if you could see that.

0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:55.040
<v Speaker 1>Wow, And a carriage house when you open it up,

0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:56.679
<v Speaker 1>it's kind of like a courtyard, right.

0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:59.520
<v Speaker 2>So it's not a courtyard. It's closed, but it's very

0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:03.760
<v Speaker 2>open in there. And over the door of the carriage house,

0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:09.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if you could see it, what is it?

0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:14.960
<v Speaker 2>It says ha h a like ha ha okay, So

0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:18.360
<v Speaker 2>it's like it was yeah, just like like a cute

0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:21.000
<v Speaker 2>little joke. So then I started looking at the carriage

0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:23.800
<v Speaker 2>house annex to find out what this is, and so

0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:28.280
<v Speaker 2>I saw that they have different grants that they're giving

0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:31.160
<v Speaker 2>out in different like shows like and so I am

0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:37.000
<v Speaker 2>trying to now penetrate into the puppeteering community. I need

0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:38.440
<v Speaker 2>to get into that carriage house.

0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:40.760
<v Speaker 1>I feel like, once you went to the puppeteering world,

0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:43.439
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, they're gonna know that you're They're gonna

0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:45.119
<v Speaker 1>go back and listen to this. They're gonna watch it

0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:46.320
<v Speaker 1>and be like, he's not one of us.

0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:48.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, but I'm coming in in good faith, like it's

0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:53.920
<v Speaker 2>it's a genera like like serious curiosity, right, genuine curiosity.

0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:58.520
<v Speaker 2>I have no intent to do anything other than bring

0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:03.320
<v Speaker 2>light to this amazing world and puppetry. Yeah, I'm not

0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:05.520
<v Speaker 2>making fun of them. I think it's a beautiful thing.

0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:06.920
<v Speaker 2>I think it's a great thing. We love.

0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:10.680
<v Speaker 1>We love Sesame Street, the Muppets like amazing.

0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:13.480
<v Speaker 2>So I found this one show that's supposed to be

0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:16.480
<v Speaker 2>this month or next month, and I found the creator

0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:17.840
<v Speaker 2>of the show who was given the grand and I

0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:21.440
<v Speaker 2>instagram messaged her and you know, I don't want to say, hey,

0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:23.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to figure out what's going on, but you know,

0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:28.520
<v Speaker 2>nice a nice friendly message of of hey, blank, I

0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:30.959
<v Speaker 2>saw online that you were given this grant and are

0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:33.199
<v Speaker 2>putting on a production in the next coming days. Is

0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:35.160
<v Speaker 2>there a place where I could buy tickets for the show?

0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:37.280
<v Speaker 2>Where's the show being held? And she's like, thanks for

0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:39.760
<v Speaker 2>reaching out, send me your email address and I'll get

0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:41.560
<v Speaker 2>you the information. So I sent her my email address.

0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:43.119
<v Speaker 2>I still haven't received anything, so I need to follow

0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:46.439
<v Speaker 2>up with her. But you better believe I if I

0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:47.840
<v Speaker 2>am going to go to that puppet show.

0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:50.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, is it like Evan you q ish?

0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:55.560
<v Speaker 2>No, so that specific puppeteer she does hand a shadow

0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:56.399
<v Speaker 2>puppets what?

0:19:56.880 --> 0:19:59.280
<v Speaker 1>Yes, So it's a whole show of shadow puppets. Correct

0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:01.560
<v Speaker 1>for her, I would go to that in two seconds. Yes,

0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:04.840
<v Speaker 1>and it's for it's an adult shadow puppet show. I

0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:06.800
<v Speaker 1>need to go to this, right, I didn't even know

0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:07.480
<v Speaker 1>that was a thing.

0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:11.040
<v Speaker 2>So she and and and I'm sure it's awesome and

0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:12.040
<v Speaker 2>and probably hilarious.

0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:13.520
<v Speaker 1>I mean, if you're getting a grant for it, I'm

0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:15.679
<v Speaker 1>going to assume that you're at the top of your feeld.

0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:18.879
<v Speaker 2>Like the Jim Henson grant for it. Not so it's crazy.

0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:21.720
<v Speaker 1>That is nuts and it really feels very only murder

0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:26.160
<v Speaker 1>in the buildings ish, Yes, like I feel like you guys, really, yes, really,

0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:28.159
<v Speaker 1>I was thinking this was leading to a murder.

0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:31.680
<v Speaker 2>My wife is the Selena Gomez character and am I Martin.

0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:34.399
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I would say maybe you're more Steve Moore and

0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:37.160
<v Speaker 1>I don't think you're I think you're more Steve.

0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:41.960
<v Speaker 2>I think I think I'm more Steve. Yeah. Wow, yes, So.

0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:43.479
<v Speaker 1>It just goes to show don't judge a book by

0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:43.760
<v Speaker 1>its cover.

0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:45.200
<v Speaker 2>Do your research.

0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:48.680
<v Speaker 1>Hold please, I'm going to play a quick commercial. It's here.

0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:52.400
<v Speaker 1>Hold on, there we go. Wow, I get to play

0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:56.880
<v Speaker 1>my own commercials Now, this is exciting. Okay, now we're back.

0:20:57.000 --> 0:20:59.639
<v Speaker 2>We're back. So I don't know where this is going

0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:03.679
<v Speaker 2>to go, but I'm not letting it die. Like, I

0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:05.840
<v Speaker 2>have to keep this going. I have to keep this

0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:06.800
<v Speaker 2>moving forward.

0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:10.240
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean, I feel like I've heard people are

0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:14.879
<v Speaker 1>good at investigating, but you have truly I feel blown

0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:18.119
<v Speaker 1>the lid on all investigations I've ever heard of. I

0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:21.000
<v Speaker 1>have never seen someone go into so much detail. Yeah,

0:21:21.440 --> 0:21:23.119
<v Speaker 1>to get to the bottom of something. In my life,

0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:26.480
<v Speaker 1>I'm pretty relentless. I think that's one of my skills

0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:27.920
<v Speaker 1>as a litigator and attorney.

0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:30.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I have to myself for a second.

0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:31.280
<v Speaker 1>Linden Law.

0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:35.560
<v Speaker 2>Linden Law. So like I if I fixate on something

0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:37.119
<v Speaker 2>and I want to know the answer to something like

0:21:37.240 --> 0:21:39.040
<v Speaker 2>I will not give up.

0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:42.439
<v Speaker 1>I am very much the same in certain things, like

0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:44.800
<v Speaker 1>in college they told me my credits when in transfer

0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:47.120
<v Speaker 1>I transferred three times. Yeah, by the time I got

0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:48.960
<v Speaker 1>to the third one, they're like, we're not taking any

0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:52.160
<v Speaker 1>of these. I legit printed out every course I ever

0:21:52.200 --> 0:21:54.600
<v Speaker 1>took and got teachers recommendations on every single one of

0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:56.600
<v Speaker 1>those and was like, here's why you have to take them,

0:21:56.600 --> 0:21:58.480
<v Speaker 1>because I match them up to your current course book.

0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:01.800
<v Speaker 1>So these match. Saying it doesn't it doesn't because the

0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:03.680
<v Speaker 1>curriculums match, and the teacher even says it does.

0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:07.840
<v Speaker 2>Never take no for an answer, so true. When I

0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:11.200
<v Speaker 2>went for my first job interview after college, this guy

0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:16.080
<v Speaker 2>was like, you're young, and you're gonna learn that life

0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:18.080
<v Speaker 2>isn't black and white and there's a lot of gray

0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:22.080
<v Speaker 2>area in between. Fuck that, Like, no, no, no, you

0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:24.679
<v Speaker 2>make your own luck in this world. It's only a

0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:26.199
<v Speaker 2>no if you let it be a no, and you

0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:28.479
<v Speaker 2>never give up. That's kind of how I got onto

0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:34.480
<v Speaker 2>a survivor. Really yeah, Like I was relentless, really follow

0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:37.960
<v Speaker 2>up videos every six months, emailing NonStop. Once they gave

0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:40.160
<v Speaker 2>me a little crack, I pushed my way through the door.

0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:40.720
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:44.159
<v Speaker 2>And that's the way I like to lift, which is

0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:45.560
<v Speaker 2>very annoying for my wife.

0:22:45.640 --> 0:22:48.600
<v Speaker 1>No, listen, it's good to have pipples. I feel who

0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:51.560
<v Speaker 1>like are aggressive like that? Yeah, because you know some

0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:53.240
<v Speaker 1>people just kind of sit by the side. But I

0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:56.359
<v Speaker 1>mean you've cracked open where Jim Henson's art studio is.

0:22:56.400 --> 0:22:57.800
<v Speaker 1>So I mean I feel like jokes on them.

0:22:57.880 --> 0:22:59.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean that's part of what I love being

0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:01.600
<v Speaker 2>a lawyer. Like people that would just sit back, I'm.

0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:04.480
<v Speaker 1>Like, no, yeah, we need to keep going to get in.

0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:07.320
<v Speaker 1>So is all that stuff like public record? It's or

0:23:07.359 --> 0:23:09.400
<v Speaker 1>do you have your own like little database that you search?

0:23:09.480 --> 0:23:13.480
<v Speaker 2>So that's all like street easy is obviously public Actress

0:23:13.520 --> 0:23:16.719
<v Speaker 2>which is the New York City property records as public.

0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:18.800
<v Speaker 2>And then additionally you can go to the Department the

0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:20.960
<v Speaker 2>New York Department of State website and look up any

0:23:21.400 --> 0:23:24.960
<v Speaker 2>LLC and figure out when they were registered, who to

0:23:25.040 --> 0:23:27.000
<v Speaker 2>serve if you want to sue them, and things like that.

0:23:27.000 --> 0:23:29.080
<v Speaker 1>It's all public record. Do you just have to know

0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:29.600
<v Speaker 1>how to use it?

0:23:29.720 --> 0:23:31.320
<v Speaker 2>Just got to know that they exist and how to

0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:33.760
<v Speaker 2>use it. Yeah, that's insane, It's crazy.

0:23:33.760 --> 0:23:36.000
<v Speaker 1>There's like so many free resources out there that you

0:23:36.080 --> 0:23:40.360
<v Speaker 1>just don't realize can help you, not being like junior detective,

0:23:40.440 --> 0:23:41.359
<v Speaker 1>but can really.

0:23:41.320 --> 0:23:43.480
<v Speaker 2>Could really, really really help. And that's why like a

0:23:43.480 --> 0:23:47.359
<v Speaker 2>lot of like investigative podcasts and things like that, a

0:23:47.359 --> 0:23:49.800
<v Speaker 2>lot of the information is out there. You just had

0:23:49.800 --> 0:23:52.240
<v Speaker 2>to piece it together. So like Cereal is obviously in

0:23:52.240 --> 0:23:54.920
<v Speaker 2>the news right now, like she went and did something

0:23:54.960 --> 0:23:58.359
<v Speaker 2>called a foil request to to the to the prosecutor's

0:23:58.400 --> 0:24:02.440
<v Speaker 2>office and to the detectives off where the government's required

0:24:02.520 --> 0:24:05.399
<v Speaker 2>to respond to these requests. I'm sure they'll try to

0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:07.240
<v Speaker 2>fight it a make up excuses of why they can't

0:24:07.240 --> 0:24:08.720
<v Speaker 2>give it to you. But a foil request is a

0:24:08.720 --> 0:24:12.720
<v Speaker 2>freedom of information request that if it's a government entity

0:24:13.040 --> 0:24:16.159
<v Speaker 2>generally speaking, and the public's entitled to that information. So

0:24:16.280 --> 0:24:18.359
<v Speaker 2>if you're if you're ever trying to figure out what's

0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:21.560
<v Speaker 2>going on, or a loved one's being prosecuted, or maybe

0:24:21.640 --> 0:24:24.439
<v Speaker 2>even in jail, you could always go and do a

0:24:24.440 --> 0:24:27.440
<v Speaker 2>foil request to any entity and try to get that information,

0:24:27.840 --> 0:24:30.040
<v Speaker 2>really and and anybody could do You don't have to

0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:31.920
<v Speaker 2>be a lawyer to do it. Anybody could do it.

0:24:32.320 --> 0:24:34.639
<v Speaker 2>We're living in a world right now. This is like

0:24:34.680 --> 0:24:36.920
<v Speaker 2>We're going to get deep for a second, where it's

0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:40.480
<v Speaker 2>it's almost like all these big uh like corporations have

0:24:40.520 --> 0:24:43.320
<v Speaker 2>so much information on us, right, and like the government

0:24:43.359 --> 0:24:44.960
<v Speaker 2>has a lot of information on us. Not to be

0:24:45.040 --> 0:24:50.000
<v Speaker 2>like big brother in political politically yeah, politically politicky politikey Yeah,

0:24:50.600 --> 0:24:53.200
<v Speaker 2>I need to get there. But at the same time,

0:24:53.520 --> 0:24:56.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, as an individual person, you kind of think, oh,

0:24:56.119 --> 0:24:58.680
<v Speaker 2>I don't have access to this information or I can't

0:24:58.680 --> 0:25:01.280
<v Speaker 2>get this information. Yeah that's not true. You just have

0:25:01.320 --> 0:25:03.639
<v Speaker 2>to not give up because people will tell you no

0:25:03.840 --> 0:25:04.480
<v Speaker 2>along the way.

0:25:05.000 --> 0:25:09.440
<v Speaker 1>Wow, yeah, that's nuts. Yes, Like I really didn't know

0:25:10.680 --> 0:25:13.240
<v Speaker 1>that you could do all that for free, for free,

0:25:13.480 --> 0:25:15.720
<v Speaker 1>Like I would have assumed that I would have to.

0:25:15.880 --> 0:25:18.040
<v Speaker 2>Not only for free. Like in the amount of time

0:25:18.080 --> 0:25:20.560
<v Speaker 2>that I told that story, I got it done really.

0:25:20.640 --> 0:25:22.119
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, it was pretty fast. I was doing it

0:25:22.119 --> 0:25:24.639
<v Speaker 2>on my phone. And then like once once I found

0:25:24.640 --> 0:25:27.320
<v Speaker 2>the financial advisor of information, I got up from the

0:25:27.320 --> 0:25:30.040
<v Speaker 2>couch and was like, I gotta grab my laptop. And

0:25:30.080 --> 0:25:32.239
<v Speaker 2>then for the next twenty minutes I was just like

0:25:32.640 --> 0:25:35.840
<v Speaker 2>giggling to myself as this unfold and figured out.

0:25:35.760 --> 0:25:38.800
<v Speaker 1>The cult was actually like an innocent puppeteer party.

0:25:38.560 --> 0:25:40.199
<v Speaker 2>And my wife is sitting next to me but not

0:25:40.240 --> 0:25:42.479
<v Speaker 2>looking at my computer. She's like, tell me, tell me,

0:25:42.680 --> 0:25:44.000
<v Speaker 2>and I was like, I'll tell you when I get

0:25:44.000 --> 0:25:46.719
<v Speaker 2>to my head. I'm so close. I'm so close, and

0:25:46.760 --> 0:25:48.800
<v Speaker 2>so she just kept hearing me chuckle to myself and

0:25:48.800 --> 0:25:51.640
<v Speaker 2>she's like ah, and I was like, I'm not telling you. Good.

0:25:51.800 --> 0:25:54.080
<v Speaker 1>Well, now I need to feel I like actually want

0:25:54.119 --> 0:25:55.240
<v Speaker 1>to investigate a murder with you.

0:25:55.400 --> 0:25:56.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, let's do it.

0:25:56.359 --> 0:25:59.760
<v Speaker 1>Like I really feel I think i'd be good on

0:25:59.840 --> 0:26:01.119
<v Speaker 1>like interviewing portion.

0:26:01.480 --> 0:26:03.720
<v Speaker 2>So like that that's the area law I don't practice

0:26:03.760 --> 0:26:06.399
<v Speaker 2>right now. And I'm like, should I be practicing like

0:26:06.600 --> 0:26:09.160
<v Speaker 2>civil rights and getting people out of jail that maybe

0:26:09.240 --> 0:26:11.480
<v Speaker 2>had wrongfully been convicted? Oh my god.

0:26:11.560 --> 0:26:13.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah that's a good one and in New York and

0:26:13.760 --> 0:26:16.480
<v Speaker 1>like I like to do that type of research. Yah

0:26:16.520 --> 0:26:24.160
<v Speaker 1>stuff Yeah interesting, yeah, hold up, So like just say, yeah,

0:26:24.600 --> 0:26:28.320
<v Speaker 1>how do here's just questions? Yes, how do cases like

0:26:28.359 --> 0:26:31.600
<v Speaker 1>get cracked back open? Is because like, for you example,

0:26:31.640 --> 0:26:34.640
<v Speaker 1>you're saying like this freedom of information thing. So we'll

0:26:34.960 --> 0:26:38.800
<v Speaker 1>just say I felt something was wrongfully convicted. Yeah, I

0:26:38.880 --> 0:26:42.119
<v Speaker 1>start this whole process up. Would I just say contact somebody,

0:26:42.160 --> 0:26:44.920
<v Speaker 1>be like, hey, there's something fishy going on here, Just

0:26:45.000 --> 0:26:47.600
<v Speaker 1>keep going so and how iron tight does a case

0:26:47.640 --> 0:26:50.400
<v Speaker 1>have to be for it to get like convicted or

0:26:50.840 --> 0:26:54.159
<v Speaker 1>and when does it become a state department thing? Sure, so,

0:26:54.160 --> 0:26:55.040
<v Speaker 1>so many questions.

0:26:55.080 --> 0:26:59.359
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so we're at a very interesting time in our

0:26:59.400 --> 0:27:01.560
<v Speaker 2>society right now, and we're going to get to that.

0:27:01.640 --> 0:27:04.520
<v Speaker 2>But generally speaking, what happens is and keep in mind

0:27:04.560 --> 0:27:08.240
<v Speaker 2>this is not my expertise. Expertise. People get convicted, they

0:27:08.240 --> 0:27:11.119
<v Speaker 2>appeal the conviction, and there's different accounts which you can

0:27:11.280 --> 0:27:13.800
<v Speaker 2>appeal on, and you could appeal multiple times. You could

0:27:13.800 --> 0:27:16.959
<v Speaker 2>say that you didn't have proper representation or a mistake

0:27:17.080 --> 0:27:19.600
<v Speaker 2>was made by the jury, and so there's lots of

0:27:19.640 --> 0:27:21.680
<v Speaker 2>different ways that you could appeal. And that's why when

0:27:21.680 --> 0:27:23.919
<v Speaker 2>you hear some of these documentaries on Netflix, these appeals

0:27:23.920 --> 0:27:26.720
<v Speaker 2>are happening over ten, fifteen, twenty years.

0:27:26.720 --> 0:27:28.280
<v Speaker 1>It's sure like the staircase, right.

0:27:28.400 --> 0:27:32.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, DNA evidence DNA technology gets better, and you say, hey,

0:27:32.320 --> 0:27:34.280
<v Speaker 2>if we use this DNA technology, we could show that

0:27:34.280 --> 0:27:37.040
<v Speaker 2>somebody else did it. And so as there's adjustments and

0:27:37.800 --> 0:27:40.960
<v Speaker 2>moves forward in the scientific community, if you could use

0:27:41.000 --> 0:27:45.200
<v Speaker 2>that evidence to to get off or to exculpate yourself

0:27:45.680 --> 0:27:51.200
<v Speaker 2>and you exculpitate, sculpt exculpate. What's that like to get

0:27:51.200 --> 0:27:54.080
<v Speaker 2>off of something? Did I not say the right word?

0:27:54.160 --> 0:27:58.080
<v Speaker 1>No? I think you did, And I just love that word. Now, exculpitate, exculpate,

0:27:58.560 --> 0:28:02.800
<v Speaker 1>love that it's so like H formal, I exculpitated myself.

0:28:02.880 --> 0:28:09.000
<v Speaker 2>It's exculpate. So I hadded an extra and a couple

0:28:09.040 --> 0:28:12.800
<v Speaker 2>of extra letters there. But like as technology progresses, like

0:28:12.880 --> 0:28:15.960
<v Speaker 2>there's ways that you could test the evidence in the case,

0:28:16.000 --> 0:28:18.359
<v Speaker 2>and that's one thing that goes on, and appeals could

0:28:18.359 --> 0:28:22.720
<v Speaker 2>happen and take years. Right now, something interesting is happening

0:28:22.760 --> 0:28:29.000
<v Speaker 2>as well in our society, and that's because of movements

0:28:29.119 --> 0:28:32.520
<v Speaker 2>within the Black Lives Matter community and just like general

0:28:33.119 --> 0:28:37.040
<v Speaker 2>civil rights and the amount of convictions that have gone

0:28:37.119 --> 0:28:39.680
<v Speaker 2>on since the nineties and the drug wars and things

0:28:39.760 --> 0:28:43.120
<v Speaker 2>like that, it's being uncovered that there was there's been

0:28:43.160 --> 0:28:47.920
<v Speaker 2>a lot of bad policing where cops and detectives were

0:28:47.960 --> 0:28:52.680
<v Speaker 2>over aggressive or or covering up evidence and not about

0:28:52.760 --> 0:28:56.160
<v Speaker 2>exchanging evidence. That's called a Brady violation, which is how

0:28:56.160 --> 0:28:58.240
<v Speaker 2>adden On said got off or part of how he

0:28:58.320 --> 0:29:03.400
<v Speaker 2>got off. And so all these big police departments and

0:29:03.440 --> 0:29:07.480
<v Speaker 2>District Attorney's offices in major, more progressive cities like New

0:29:07.600 --> 0:29:11.960
<v Speaker 2>York and Baltimore and Los Angeles are now creating these

0:29:12.080 --> 0:29:15.720
<v Speaker 2>units where they look at past convictions that they think

0:29:15.880 --> 0:29:21.360
<v Speaker 2>might have been improper. So two weeks ago, the Brooklyn

0:29:21.440 --> 0:29:24.840
<v Speaker 2>DA's office came out and said, this specific detective who

0:29:24.880 --> 0:29:29.560
<v Speaker 2>worked on these cases, there's a lot of wrongdoing surrounding,

0:29:29.680 --> 0:29:33.280
<v Speaker 2>and we're gonna dismiss for close to four hundred cases.

0:29:33.680 --> 0:29:35.400
<v Speaker 2>Really four hundred.

0:29:35.560 --> 0:29:37.760
<v Speaker 1>That's insane. You wouldn't, like, I get it in like

0:29:37.800 --> 0:29:40.560
<v Speaker 1>a small town, right because you would think like everything

0:29:40.640 --> 0:29:44.160
<v Speaker 1>is probably owned or operated, everybody knows each other. But

0:29:44.240 --> 0:29:46.280
<v Speaker 1>in like a city, I feel like you really got

0:29:46.320 --> 0:29:46.560
<v Speaker 1>to be.

0:29:46.560 --> 0:29:49.640
<v Speaker 2>Like a yeah, so with I'm a criminals, So with

0:29:49.680 --> 0:29:57.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm ed like they this division of the Maryland Police

0:29:57.280 --> 0:30:00.600
<v Speaker 2>Department and Prosecutor's Office looked at his case because they

0:30:00.680 --> 0:30:03.200
<v Speaker 2>created they recently created this division within the past year

0:30:03.320 --> 0:30:03.640
<v Speaker 2>or so.

0:30:03.840 --> 0:30:07.040
<v Speaker 1>Really, yeah, it has popping up more places than one. Yes,

0:30:07.120 --> 0:30:10.480
<v Speaker 1>these small divisions are being to look at cases.

0:30:10.560 --> 0:30:14.600
<v Speaker 2>Look at questionable convictions. And so as they looked at

0:30:14.840 --> 0:30:18.320
<v Speaker 2>the specific group as the department, as they looked at it,

0:30:18.360 --> 0:30:19.960
<v Speaker 2>they started to see that there was a lot of

0:30:19.960 --> 0:30:22.720
<v Speaker 2>things in his case that there was potentially two other

0:30:23.160 --> 0:30:26.800
<v Speaker 2>suspects who were not properly investigated. That's one and two

0:30:27.200 --> 0:30:30.320
<v Speaker 2>is and the information regarding them was never exchanged his

0:30:30.360 --> 0:30:35.720
<v Speaker 2>defense attorney. Wait what Yeah, so there was handwritten notes

0:30:35.840 --> 0:30:39.440
<v Speaker 2>in the file of two other potential suspects, including one

0:30:39.480 --> 0:30:42.120
<v Speaker 2>of them which told the victim, I'm going to kill

0:30:42.120 --> 0:30:45.760
<v Speaker 2>you and make you disappear, and that information was never

0:30:45.840 --> 0:30:49.320
<v Speaker 2>given to Anan Said's defense attorney, so they couldn't.

0:30:49.320 --> 0:30:49.960
<v Speaker 1>And that's illegal.

0:30:50.040 --> 0:30:52.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's called a Brady Violet. It's a constitutional violation.

0:30:53.400 --> 0:30:56.400
<v Speaker 2>So that was one thing that was discovered. And additionally,

0:30:56.440 --> 0:30:59.560
<v Speaker 2>they realized that a lot of the science behind quote

0:30:59.640 --> 0:31:02.360
<v Speaker 2>unquote science behind his conviction, if you remember, they use

0:31:02.400 --> 0:31:04.720
<v Speaker 2>a lot of cell phone tower that is all bogus

0:31:04.720 --> 0:31:07.760
<v Speaker 2>and bullshit, and they're like, okay, like, as we get

0:31:07.800 --> 0:31:10.800
<v Speaker 2>further into this case, we realize it like it probably

0:31:10.920 --> 0:31:11.560
<v Speaker 2>wasn't him.

0:31:11.480 --> 0:31:14.480
<v Speaker 1>Because people think with like you watch a detective show,

0:31:14.520 --> 0:31:19.280
<v Speaker 1>you watch these shows that they kind of dramatize the

0:31:19.280 --> 0:31:22.720
<v Speaker 1>whole situation. The wire really does the best job of

0:31:22.840 --> 0:31:27.760
<v Speaker 1>showing you how painstaking details you need to get a

0:31:27.800 --> 0:31:31.120
<v Speaker 1>search warrant, right to actually like tap into a phone, Like,

0:31:31.160 --> 0:31:33.120
<v Speaker 1>it's not as easy as you think. No, and the

0:31:33.200 --> 0:31:37.160
<v Speaker 1>locations that you're quote unquote getting don't actually show you

0:31:37.240 --> 0:31:40.280
<v Speaker 1>the exact location, unless it's a find my iPhone where

0:31:40.320 --> 0:31:43.880
<v Speaker 1>it literally shows you that you don't do it.

0:31:43.880 --> 0:31:46.760
<v Speaker 2>And it's interesting because now our technology has gotten so

0:31:46.760 --> 0:31:49.600
<v Speaker 2>good at pinpointing us, right, because they used to just

0:31:49.680 --> 0:31:51.080
<v Speaker 2>use cell phone towers.

0:31:51.120 --> 0:31:54.680
<v Speaker 4>Hey, we were in this general radius or through a

0:31:54.720 --> 0:31:58.960
<v Speaker 4>triangular coordination between these three, we think you're closest to you, like,

0:31:59.040 --> 0:32:02.600
<v Speaker 4>but now you're is attached to Wi Fi everywhere your

0:32:02.600 --> 0:32:05.200
<v Speaker 4>phone like like like it could show when you left

0:32:05.240 --> 0:32:06.960
<v Speaker 4>Wi Fi and when you join Wi Fi and so

0:32:07.200 --> 0:32:09.880
<v Speaker 4>that with the cell phone towers and there's more cell

0:32:09.880 --> 0:32:10.720
<v Speaker 4>phone towers too.

0:32:11.120 --> 0:32:13.520
<v Speaker 1>Hold up, So just say I go missing? Uh huh

0:32:13.600 --> 0:32:19.400
<v Speaker 1>but the Starbucks on twenty third Street, yeah they I

0:32:19.440 --> 0:32:21.280
<v Speaker 1>how would it know? How would it pick me up there?

0:32:21.320 --> 0:32:24.880
<v Speaker 2>Well, if if you connected to Starbucks Wi Fi, like

0:32:24.920 --> 0:32:27.600
<v Speaker 2>that's probably in your system. When you walk past there,

0:32:27.760 --> 0:32:29.400
<v Speaker 2>it probably registered your device.

0:32:29.480 --> 0:32:31.600
<v Speaker 1>But like if just say I go missing with my phone,

0:32:31.720 --> 0:32:33.800
<v Speaker 1>nobody and nobody could get into just say my cloud

0:32:33.880 --> 0:32:37.680
<v Speaker 1>or anything. Yeah, that's all completely just gone, right, well.

0:32:38.040 --> 0:32:41.000
<v Speaker 2>You're talking about like your GPS location. Yeah, your GPS

0:32:41.000 --> 0:32:44.160
<v Speaker 2>location right now could be found very easily by anybody

0:32:44.200 --> 0:32:45.640
<v Speaker 2>in the in the US government.

0:32:46.840 --> 0:32:50.560
<v Speaker 1>But for like your case, just say, like a lawyer

0:32:50.640 --> 0:32:53.200
<v Speaker 1>can't be like just say, in a murder trial, can't

0:32:53.200 --> 0:32:56.240
<v Speaker 1>say I know they were home. Well, here's the evidence.

0:32:56.320 --> 0:32:58.240
<v Speaker 2>What I would do in that case. And I'm not

0:32:58.280 --> 0:33:01.520
<v Speaker 2>a criminal attorney, but I I would subpoena the phone

0:33:01.600 --> 0:33:05.040
<v Speaker 2>records from Verizon AT and T and see what type

0:33:05.080 --> 0:33:08.680
<v Speaker 2>of records they can give me, and then get an

0:33:08.760 --> 0:33:12.240
<v Speaker 2>expert to go and decipher all the coordinates and stuff

0:33:12.280 --> 0:33:12.600
<v Speaker 2>like that.

0:33:12.880 --> 0:33:16.520
<v Speaker 1>Wow. Yeah, I honestly am loving every minute of this

0:33:16.640 --> 0:33:18.960
<v Speaker 1>because it sounds like you get to be a detective.

0:33:19.160 --> 0:33:19.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and just.

0:33:19.760 --> 0:33:21.960
<v Speaker 1>Keep looking for things, and I really enjoy that.

0:33:22.120 --> 0:33:23.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And some things are easy to find and some

0:33:23.640 --> 0:33:25.560
<v Speaker 2>things are hard to find, and sometimes you don't find

0:33:25.560 --> 0:33:28.360
<v Speaker 2>things at all, and that's very frustrating. Yeah, dead ends

0:33:28.600 --> 0:33:32.240
<v Speaker 2>that dead ends are extremely frustrating, and they unfortunately happen.

0:33:32.440 --> 0:33:34.360
<v Speaker 2>Like I know you say, don't I said, don't take

0:33:34.400 --> 0:33:36.920
<v Speaker 2>no for an answer, But sometimes like the information just

0:33:37.000 --> 0:33:41.959
<v Speaker 2>literally doesn't exist, Yeah, And that happens. Sometimes people destroy

0:33:42.000 --> 0:33:43.120
<v Speaker 2>the information.

0:33:43.520 --> 0:33:45.520
<v Speaker 1>And then I want to go even further, Yeah, and

0:33:45.640 --> 0:33:49.440
<v Speaker 1>figure out why out did you watch the staircase.

0:33:49.480 --> 0:33:50.360
<v Speaker 2>I did watch the staircase.

0:33:50.360 --> 0:33:51.440
<v Speaker 1>You think he's innocent or guilty.

0:33:51.560 --> 0:33:55.720
<v Speaker 2>I think he's innocent. I believe the owl theory. I thought, wait,

0:33:55.760 --> 0:33:58.760
<v Speaker 2>what the owl theory? Okay, I did not believe the

0:33:58.800 --> 0:33:59.840
<v Speaker 2>owl I believe the owl.

0:34:00.680 --> 0:34:02.880
<v Speaker 1>You really think an owl like scraped up her face,

0:34:03.160 --> 0:34:05.760
<v Speaker 1>and I do made her fall down the stairs.

0:34:05.840 --> 0:34:10.160
<v Speaker 2>It is such an unbelievable set of circumstances, right, but twice,

0:34:11.520 --> 0:34:13.759
<v Speaker 2>well the first.

0:34:13.440 --> 0:34:15.839
<v Speaker 1>Time, so you think there was a murder the first time.

0:34:15.920 --> 0:34:17.439
<v Speaker 2>No, I don't think there was a murder the first time.

0:34:18.040 --> 0:34:21.719
<v Speaker 2>I think that that it just so happened m hmm,

0:34:21.960 --> 0:34:25.919
<v Speaker 2>that he had been there both times or in the proximity.

0:34:26.560 --> 0:34:28.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because the second time it was kind of loose.

0:34:29.000 --> 0:34:31.799
<v Speaker 1>Well also, like where the first time was a loose

0:34:31.800 --> 0:34:33.160
<v Speaker 1>set of circumstance.

0:34:32.640 --> 0:34:35.839
<v Speaker 2>So they they let the evidence of the first time

0:34:35.880 --> 0:34:38.120
<v Speaker 2>come in for the second time right at trial. So

0:34:38.160 --> 0:34:40.080
<v Speaker 2>it's like, did that taint the jury? Like yeah, because

0:34:40.080 --> 0:34:42.520
<v Speaker 2>they were like oh twice yeah, yeah, yeah, and so

0:34:42.640 --> 0:34:44.760
<v Speaker 2>like then you're like, oh, okay, but like its possible,

0:34:44.760 --> 0:34:50.000
<v Speaker 2>it's possible. You think he killed her, I don't, Yeah,

0:34:50.280 --> 0:34:52.120
<v Speaker 2>I don't, yeah, but I.

0:34:52.040 --> 0:34:56.080
<v Speaker 1>Also am confused, like I think, I know she just

0:34:56.080 --> 0:34:58.759
<v Speaker 1>didn't fall down the stairs, but what if she did

0:34:59.200 --> 0:35:03.239
<v Speaker 1>I do that? But the injuries kind of are they're

0:35:04.360 --> 0:35:04.719
<v Speaker 1>that's the thing.

0:35:04.760 --> 0:35:08.040
<v Speaker 2>They're very very weird injuries, right, Like, look like if

0:35:08.080 --> 0:35:10.160
<v Speaker 2>he struck her on the head with something.

0:35:11.400 --> 0:35:13.440
<v Speaker 1>But then there was the fire poker or whatever it

0:35:13.520 --> 0:35:16.960
<v Speaker 1>was that came back into play. I can't kill anyone

0:35:17.440 --> 0:35:19.959
<v Speaker 1>the fire poker, not with the injuries that they said

0:35:19.960 --> 0:35:21.480
<v Speaker 1>it did, like it just.

0:35:21.880 --> 0:35:25.800
<v Speaker 2>The fire poke. In my mind, that fire poker weighs

0:35:25.920 --> 0:35:30.040
<v Speaker 2>like I don't know, under ten pounds, true, So that's like,

0:35:30.160 --> 0:35:31.640
<v Speaker 2>how is he going to kill her? And like why

0:35:31.680 --> 0:35:36.560
<v Speaker 2>would he grab the fire poker? There's knives and so listen,

0:35:36.920 --> 0:35:38.640
<v Speaker 2>if he did kill her, and I don't think he did,

0:35:38.680 --> 0:35:41.440
<v Speaker 2>it would have been a crime of passion, right, So

0:35:42.080 --> 0:35:45.359
<v Speaker 2>he didn't think, Oh, I'm gonna set this whole thing

0:35:45.440 --> 0:35:47.080
<v Speaker 2>up and kill her and throw her down the stairs

0:35:47.120 --> 0:35:47.760
<v Speaker 2>like that would.

0:35:47.520 --> 0:35:51.120
<v Speaker 1>Be that's a murder. Homicide or crime of passion is

0:35:51.120 --> 0:35:54.000
<v Speaker 1>in the moment, right, This wasn't planned, this wasn't premeditated.

0:35:54.080 --> 0:35:57.720
<v Speaker 2>This was not premeditated, So if he's going pre meditated

0:35:58.120 --> 0:36:00.600
<v Speaker 2>or not premeditated, you think he is going to the

0:36:00.640 --> 0:36:02.600
<v Speaker 2>fireplace to grab the fire poker and not to the

0:36:02.640 --> 0:36:03.760
<v Speaker 2>kitchen to grab a knife.

0:36:04.840 --> 0:36:06.839
<v Speaker 1>You're right, And.

0:36:06.760 --> 0:36:09.080
<v Speaker 2>I think the fireplace was right next to the kitchen, like, dude,

0:36:09.120 --> 0:36:10.080
<v Speaker 2>you grab a knife.

0:36:10.160 --> 0:36:12.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And also it was like a family heirloom apparently,

0:36:12.680 --> 0:36:15.800
<v Speaker 1>which like, first of all, weird family air, very strange,

0:36:16.080 --> 0:36:19.600
<v Speaker 1>like who passes fire pokers? It's weird. Yes, Second of all,

0:36:19.640 --> 0:36:20.360
<v Speaker 1>you're right.

0:36:20.280 --> 0:36:22.879
<v Speaker 2>Like like thin think think about this.

0:36:24.120 --> 0:36:26.480
<v Speaker 1>Also, why would you go up the stairs with the

0:36:26.520 --> 0:36:28.759
<v Speaker 1>fire poker to then make sure she falls down the

0:36:28.760 --> 0:36:30.560
<v Speaker 1>heres and why would you make the injuries on her

0:36:30.560 --> 0:36:31.400
<v Speaker 1>face that obvious?

0:36:32.040 --> 0:36:34.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the whole thing is like it if it was

0:36:35.160 --> 0:36:38.360
<v Speaker 2>if it was premeditated, there were and this was a

0:36:38.400 --> 0:36:41.080
<v Speaker 2>smart guy too, Yeah, there were ways to make it

0:36:41.120 --> 0:36:45.000
<v Speaker 2>look even more like an accident. So true, and like

0:36:45.080 --> 0:36:47.880
<v Speaker 2>instead it's just like bloody mess like yeah, okay, so

0:36:48.480 --> 0:36:50.920
<v Speaker 2>if he did it, it's a crime of passion and

0:36:50.960 --> 0:36:53.799
<v Speaker 2>he didn't go grab a knife. Yeah, And then like

0:36:53.920 --> 0:36:56.160
<v Speaker 2>the whole thing with the micro feathers and the hair,

0:36:56.680 --> 0:36:59.880
<v Speaker 2>like I I think that why not the owl theory,

0:37:00.760 --> 0:37:03.400
<v Speaker 2>it just is so insane to me to believe that

0:37:03.480 --> 0:37:04.600
<v Speaker 2>an owl flew in.

0:37:04.800 --> 0:37:08.239
<v Speaker 1>It's crazy and caused it. It's crazy, but it's not.

0:37:08.760 --> 0:37:11.600
<v Speaker 1>It's not crazy when you like start putting things together,

0:37:11.640 --> 0:37:13.960
<v Speaker 1>because then it starts sounding like, yeah, maybe it was.

0:37:13.880 --> 0:37:17.399
<v Speaker 5>An owl that flew in, Like is that they were

0:37:17.440 --> 0:37:21.680
<v Speaker 5>on a woodsy property, and so okay, let's just like

0:37:21.760 --> 0:37:26.000
<v Speaker 5>weigh it out. So you have an injury to her

0:37:26.280 --> 0:37:29.879
<v Speaker 5>head which didn't fracture her skull, and it's basically the

0:37:29.920 --> 0:37:33.520
<v Speaker 5>only murder in the state that's ever taken place where

0:37:33.520 --> 0:37:36.520
<v Speaker 5>there's head trauma without a fracture of the skull, which

0:37:36.560 --> 0:37:38.840
<v Speaker 5>is like one in I don't want to say one

0:37:38.920 --> 0:37:42.960
<v Speaker 5>in a million, because like there's been less than a

0:37:42.960 --> 0:37:46.799
<v Speaker 5>million murders I would hope in the state. But like,

0:37:47.120 --> 0:37:49.759
<v Speaker 5>there's a small likelihood that that could happen versus a

0:37:49.800 --> 0:37:52.520
<v Speaker 5>small a likelihood that an owl could have done it.

0:37:53.280 --> 0:37:55.880
<v Speaker 5>There's a small likelihood of both of them. So why

0:37:55.920 --> 0:37:57.640
<v Speaker 5>would we say that to the.

0:37:57.680 --> 0:38:00.839
<v Speaker 1>Injury If I'm understanding this correctly, Basically, she fell down

0:38:00.840 --> 0:38:05.040
<v Speaker 1>the stairs. Yeah, she had injuries to her head, but

0:38:05.320 --> 0:38:07.520
<v Speaker 1>her actual like skull didn't break her skull.

0:38:07.560 --> 0:38:08.800
<v Speaker 2>There was no fracture of her skull.

0:38:08.880 --> 0:38:11.120
<v Speaker 1>So she had head trauma, meaning like she got hit

0:38:11.160 --> 0:38:13.359
<v Speaker 1>with something, but it wasn't hard enough to actually break

0:38:13.360 --> 0:38:13.719
<v Speaker 1>her skull.

0:38:14.000 --> 0:38:18.000
<v Speaker 2>Superficial scratches and abrasions and slices in her head, but

0:38:18.200 --> 0:38:19.400
<v Speaker 2>her skull wasn't fractured.

0:38:19.600 --> 0:38:20.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that seems so weird.

0:38:20.880 --> 0:38:23.239
<v Speaker 2>How would her skull not be fractured if he is

0:38:23.480 --> 0:38:27.279
<v Speaker 2>beating the crap out of her like you first saw?

0:38:27.560 --> 0:38:30.080
<v Speaker 2>Like why would he do it with a fire polker? Yeah,

0:38:30.120 --> 0:38:32.960
<v Speaker 2>and like if he wanted to kill her, like, why

0:38:33.000 --> 0:38:36.200
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't he have grabbed a knife. It's a bloody mess. Anyway,

0:38:36.239 --> 0:38:38.440
<v Speaker 2>he calls nine one one. He's at the scene.

0:38:38.800 --> 0:38:41.239
<v Speaker 1>Okay, I now want to do a murder podcast with

0:38:41.280 --> 0:38:43.000
<v Speaker 1>you because I want to break down some of the

0:38:43.080 --> 0:38:45.120
<v Speaker 1>murders that I have questions on. And I feel like

0:38:45.160 --> 0:38:47.040
<v Speaker 1>you're the one, the intelligent one in the podcast, and

0:38:47.040 --> 0:38:48.520
<v Speaker 1>I'm the one who kind of just like asks a

0:38:48.520 --> 0:38:50.759
<v Speaker 1>bunch of questions that people are like, wow, that guy

0:38:50.800 --> 0:38:51.560
<v Speaker 1>has a lot of questions.

0:38:51.600 --> 0:38:53.400
<v Speaker 2>Well, I pretend to know what I'm talking about, but

0:38:53.480 --> 0:38:55.839
<v Speaker 2>like I, like, you know ninety nine percent of it.

0:38:56.400 --> 0:38:57.880
<v Speaker 2>I know a good amount.

0:38:58.360 --> 0:39:01.400
<v Speaker 1>I know how to ask a good question.

0:39:01.320 --> 0:39:03.120
<v Speaker 2>And I know how to bullshit a good answer.

0:39:04.320 --> 0:39:07.439
<v Speaker 1>So it's perfect but scotty on the cereal one.

0:39:07.440 --> 0:39:11.960
<v Speaker 2>But I'm I'm not so sure if if the standards

0:39:12.000 --> 0:39:15.720
<v Speaker 2>beyond a reasonable doubt, which it is for a criminal case,

0:39:16.080 --> 0:39:20.160
<v Speaker 2>beyond a reasonable build out means like you're really close

0:39:20.239 --> 0:39:22.680
<v Speaker 2>to one hundred percent positive, well see this is not

0:39:22.719 --> 0:39:24.840
<v Speaker 2>one hundred percent but pretty damn close.

0:39:24.960 --> 0:39:27.120
<v Speaker 1>And that's where I felt like he shouldn't have been

0:39:27.120 --> 0:39:30.600
<v Speaker 1>convicted because in my head, I'm like, you still left

0:39:30.640 --> 0:39:32.840
<v Speaker 1>the door completely open. I thought the defense did a

0:39:32.880 --> 0:39:36.719
<v Speaker 1>pretty decent job of leaving, like leaving some seed of

0:39:36.760 --> 0:39:37.279
<v Speaker 1>doubt there.

0:39:37.640 --> 0:39:42.000
<v Speaker 2>The thing is, what they relied on was the seed

0:39:42.080 --> 0:39:46.200
<v Speaker 2>of doubt. But juror's like answers to questions. Right, So

0:39:46.239 --> 0:39:48.560
<v Speaker 2>even though the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt, in

0:39:48.640 --> 0:39:51.560
<v Speaker 2>my case is the standard is more likely than not.

0:39:52.120 --> 0:39:56.000
<v Speaker 2>It's fifty zero point five percent fifty one percent if

0:39:56.000 --> 0:39:58.920
<v Speaker 2>you tip. If I tipped the scales ever so slightly

0:39:58.960 --> 0:40:01.840
<v Speaker 2>in my favor, then I'm supposed to win my case.

0:40:02.040 --> 0:40:03.680
<v Speaker 2>But jurors don't look at it that way. Even though

0:40:03.719 --> 0:40:05.279
<v Speaker 2>the judge tells them that, and I tell them that,

0:40:05.320 --> 0:40:07.120
<v Speaker 2>and I remind them of that, they still look at

0:40:07.120 --> 0:40:09.720
<v Speaker 2>the case and say, okay, but I want answers, right, Okay,

0:40:10.040 --> 0:40:12.759
<v Speaker 2>if he didn't do it, then who did, Like give

0:40:12.840 --> 0:40:16.640
<v Speaker 2>us an answer. People want answers, especially now we have

0:40:16.680 --> 0:40:19.000
<v Speaker 2>so much information flowing our away that like people want

0:40:19.040 --> 0:40:21.760
<v Speaker 2>more and more and more information, and they want answers

0:40:21.800 --> 0:40:24.560
<v Speaker 2>to questions. They don't want open ended things. So like

0:40:26.080 --> 0:40:29.600
<v Speaker 2>in personal injury in civil cases, one of the things

0:40:29.640 --> 0:40:33.120
<v Speaker 2>that it is interesting that's a kind of theme here

0:40:33.160 --> 0:40:37.200
<v Speaker 2>that's happening is like jurors don't just want to know

0:40:37.320 --> 0:40:41.839
<v Speaker 2>why the defendants were negligent or why they and what

0:40:41.920 --> 0:40:44.160
<v Speaker 2>they did which would show that they were negligent. They

0:40:44.160 --> 0:40:47.000
<v Speaker 2>want to know why they did it. They want to

0:40:47.040 --> 0:40:49.239
<v Speaker 2>know what the motive is. So when a big when

0:40:49.280 --> 0:40:52.520
<v Speaker 2>a big drug company releases a drug to the market

0:40:52.719 --> 0:40:56.400
<v Speaker 2>and they make the and and they're selling the product

0:40:56.600 --> 0:40:59.759
<v Speaker 2>even though they know that that specific drug could cause

0:40:59.760 --> 0:41:02.880
<v Speaker 2>a heart heart attack or it can cause DVT or

0:41:02.920 --> 0:41:06.560
<v Speaker 2>blood clots. Even if you prove to a jury that

0:41:06.600 --> 0:41:09.360
<v Speaker 2>they knew, which is you you want your you're supposed

0:41:09.360 --> 0:41:11.480
<v Speaker 2>to win your case, that the jury still wants to

0:41:11.520 --> 0:41:15.120
<v Speaker 2>know why why they released it, why that they released

0:41:15.160 --> 0:41:16.560
<v Speaker 2>it even though they knew it was going to hurt

0:41:16.560 --> 0:41:19.160
<v Speaker 2>people and the and the answer is almost always the

0:41:19.160 --> 0:41:21.160
<v Speaker 2>same thing, which is money.

0:41:21.600 --> 0:41:24.239
<v Speaker 1>Hmm okay, yeah, I mean it's right there.

0:41:24.360 --> 0:41:26.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's the root of all evil.

0:41:26.560 --> 0:41:29.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Geez, Now I want to find other murders that

0:41:29.880 --> 0:41:31.920
<v Speaker 1>I have questions on. Do you think OJ did it?

0:41:32.760 --> 0:41:36.560
<v Speaker 2>Okay, just checking, Yeah, he did it, and then he

0:41:36.640 --> 0:41:38.839
<v Speaker 2>hired one of the best lawyers to defend because they

0:41:38.840 --> 0:41:41.080
<v Speaker 2>created doubt. Yeah, and they did a great job.

0:41:41.360 --> 0:41:43.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. But see that's what I was feeling like in

0:41:43.960 --> 0:41:46.719
<v Speaker 1>the staircase, like that doubt existed, and it was like

0:41:46.840 --> 0:41:50.600
<v Speaker 1>very OJ to me in the sense that like again

0:41:51.000 --> 0:41:53.520
<v Speaker 1>with OJ, after you watched I don't know, did you

0:41:53.520 --> 0:41:54.800
<v Speaker 1>watch the Maiden America Special?

0:41:54.920 --> 0:41:56.040
<v Speaker 2>No so good?

0:41:56.160 --> 0:41:59.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, six hours. It's a great six hours of your time.

0:42:00.040 --> 0:42:03.600
<v Speaker 1>Highly recommend ever want to watch it. But you see

0:42:03.600 --> 0:42:05.640
<v Speaker 1>the doubt that they put into it, and they did

0:42:05.760 --> 0:42:06.600
<v Speaker 1>such a good job.

0:42:07.080 --> 0:42:11.240
<v Speaker 2>And also you have to keep in mind that there's

0:42:11.640 --> 0:42:16.359
<v Speaker 2>certain things that work against certain people in certain situations.

0:42:16.360 --> 0:42:20.000
<v Speaker 2>So like the judge who's assigned to the case, they're

0:42:20.040 --> 0:42:22.600
<v Speaker 2>the gatekeeper of information. They tell you what can and

0:42:22.640 --> 0:42:25.640
<v Speaker 2>can't go into a case. So there were certain things

0:42:25.680 --> 0:42:29.279
<v Speaker 2>in the staircase case that came in that maybe another

0:42:29.400 --> 0:42:32.200
<v Speaker 2>judge wouldn't have let in true, and that could have

0:42:32.280 --> 0:42:34.680
<v Speaker 2>changed his possible conviction or the outcome of the case.

0:42:34.800 --> 0:42:36.200
<v Speaker 1>Plus it's a high profile case.

0:42:36.360 --> 0:42:40.000
<v Speaker 2>But with OJ he had Johnny Cochran, who's like now

0:42:40.160 --> 0:42:43.359
<v Speaker 2>unfortunately passed away, but was like a living legend when

0:42:43.400 --> 0:42:46.399
<v Speaker 2>he was in five, like was the best attorney that

0:42:46.480 --> 0:42:49.000
<v Speaker 2>like money could buy at the feeling, and he had

0:42:49.040 --> 0:42:50.760
<v Speaker 2>an entire team of lawyers.

0:42:50.920 --> 0:42:51.200
<v Speaker 1>True.

0:42:51.480 --> 0:42:54.040
<v Speaker 2>So when you take that, even if you're to look

0:42:54.080 --> 0:42:55.840
<v Speaker 2>at the guy from the staircase who still had a

0:42:55.880 --> 0:42:59.200
<v Speaker 2>lot of money, it wasn't you know, six lawyers deep.

0:42:59.239 --> 0:43:03.160
<v Speaker 2>It was two or three of them. But still, you know,

0:43:04.000 --> 0:43:06.319
<v Speaker 2>let me just say this before like we finish this,

0:43:06.360 --> 0:43:07.160
<v Speaker 2>because I've.

0:43:06.960 --> 0:43:08.759
<v Speaker 1>Had one more commercial and then I have another question.

0:43:11.960 --> 0:43:16.359
<v Speaker 2>I have so many questions. I would be remissed to say,

0:43:17.880 --> 0:43:20.120
<v Speaker 2>and it would be wrong to say if I didn't

0:43:20.120 --> 0:43:23.040
<v Speaker 2>include the amount of people who don't get good legal

0:43:23.120 --> 0:43:27.000
<v Speaker 2>representation that the United States. And that's not a political

0:43:27.040 --> 0:43:30.240
<v Speaker 2>point I'm making. It's the god's honest truth that many

0:43:30.400 --> 0:43:34.160
<v Speaker 2>of the people that are arrested for certain crimes happen

0:43:34.320 --> 0:43:36.919
<v Speaker 2>to be people of that are lower class and can't

0:43:36.960 --> 0:43:40.239
<v Speaker 2>afford legal representation. They end up with a legal aid

0:43:40.280 --> 0:43:42.880
<v Speaker 2>attorney who are great attorneys, but they're bombarded with cases

0:43:43.440 --> 0:43:47.280
<v Speaker 2>and they don't necessarily get the defense that they deserve

0:43:47.400 --> 0:43:50.719
<v Speaker 2>and end up taking please even if they didn't do it,

0:43:50.760 --> 0:43:52.359
<v Speaker 2>and they could, And a lot of people end up

0:43:52.360 --> 0:43:54.239
<v Speaker 2>in jail. Not a lot of people, but people end

0:43:54.320 --> 0:43:56.520
<v Speaker 2>up in jail enough people where it's like where it's

0:43:56.560 --> 0:44:00.799
<v Speaker 2>a problem exactly where they didn't they didn't do it,

0:44:00.840 --> 0:44:02.520
<v Speaker 2>but they don't have the money to put on a

0:44:02.520 --> 0:44:03.200
<v Speaker 2>proper defense.

0:44:03.320 --> 0:44:07.839
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean it kind of sounds like attorneys. It's

0:44:07.960 --> 0:44:10.400
<v Speaker 1>kind of a lot about like storytelling, Like you have

0:44:10.440 --> 0:44:13.640
<v Speaker 1>to figure out how you're going to put on not

0:44:13.800 --> 0:44:17.680
<v Speaker 1>necessarily a show, but a show to a degree where

0:44:17.680 --> 0:44:20.520
<v Speaker 1>it's like this is the this is what you've given me,

0:44:20.920 --> 0:44:22.640
<v Speaker 1>and then I have to kind of improve it out

0:44:22.760 --> 0:44:25.160
<v Speaker 1>and say like they could have been here, they could

0:44:25.160 --> 0:44:27.680
<v Speaker 1>have done this, and creating the narrative where it's not

0:44:27.920 --> 0:44:30.359
<v Speaker 1>just a like on paper just say like with an

0:44:30.360 --> 0:44:34.200
<v Speaker 1>OJ clearly killed. However, once I start introducing all these things,

0:44:34.600 --> 0:44:38.120
<v Speaker 1>you can't say that because so it's funny, it's now

0:44:38.120 --> 0:44:39.200
<v Speaker 1>all these pieces in the puzzle.

0:44:39.239 --> 0:44:42.799
<v Speaker 2>You just mentioned two really key words right there, And

0:44:42.840 --> 0:44:46.719
<v Speaker 2>this is what makes a great trial attorney is storytelling

0:44:46.719 --> 0:44:50.560
<v Speaker 2>and improv. Improv is extremely important. You go into a

0:44:50.600 --> 0:44:53.319
<v Speaker 2>trial and you don't know really what's gonna happen. The

0:44:53.440 --> 0:44:56.160
<v Speaker 2>judge could let information in or not let information in.

0:44:56.680 --> 0:44:59.120
<v Speaker 2>You can have a witness that lies on the stand.

0:44:59.440 --> 0:45:03.560
<v Speaker 2>You could have ainess that give you they give you

0:45:03.560 --> 0:45:06.920
<v Speaker 2>a yeah, So you need to be prepared for everything.

0:45:07.360 --> 0:45:09.640
<v Speaker 2>But keep in mind, like at the same time, you're

0:45:09.680 --> 0:45:11.799
<v Speaker 2>telling a story from the beginning to the end, yea.

0:45:11.920 --> 0:45:14.399
<v Speaker 2>And the story's got to make sense. And people are

0:45:14.800 --> 0:45:18.279
<v Speaker 2>like a story. When you give somebody information and you're like, oh,

0:45:18.320 --> 0:45:20.719
<v Speaker 2>it's all over the place and you're disorganized and you're

0:45:20.760 --> 0:45:23.480
<v Speaker 2>just feeding them information, people can't understand or comprehend it.

0:45:23.760 --> 0:45:25.760
<v Speaker 2>But when you tell them within the bounds of a story,

0:45:25.800 --> 0:45:30.440
<v Speaker 2>they understand what's going on. And so storytelling is probably

0:45:30.520 --> 0:45:33.360
<v Speaker 2>the greatest strength of a trial attorney. And I like

0:45:33.440 --> 0:45:35.759
<v Speaker 2>to think I'm an okay storyteller. I don't know, I

0:45:35.760 --> 0:45:37.399
<v Speaker 2>could be terrible for all I know, but.

0:45:37.480 --> 0:45:39.600
<v Speaker 1>No, I've been fascinating this whole time, Like I have

0:45:39.719 --> 0:45:43.240
<v Speaker 1>so many questions and I feel like they're just able

0:45:43.280 --> 0:45:45.400
<v Speaker 1>to be answered. It's great because it's like, you know

0:45:45.480 --> 0:45:46.400
<v Speaker 1>what they.

0:45:46.280 --> 0:45:53.479
<v Speaker 2>Do, I'm a jack of all trades, master of none. Listen.

0:45:53.640 --> 0:45:55.640
<v Speaker 1>I love it because there's so many murder cases that

0:45:55.719 --> 0:45:57.560
<v Speaker 1>have questions on. I'm gonna now text you after I

0:45:57.560 --> 0:46:00.759
<v Speaker 1>watch Murder Specials. Sure there's a that I would like

0:46:00.800 --> 0:46:03.279
<v Speaker 1>to do some investigating into. I actually have one case

0:46:03.320 --> 0:46:06.600
<v Speaker 1>in particular, Yeah, that I've heard through another friend who's

0:46:06.600 --> 0:46:09.120
<v Speaker 1>an attorney, that they know the person did it and

0:46:09.160 --> 0:46:11.560
<v Speaker 1>they think there's some shady business going on behind the scenes.

0:46:11.840 --> 0:46:14.160
<v Speaker 2>So that's definitely possible. Also, can I tell you another

0:46:14.200 --> 0:46:16.920
<v Speaker 2>really good resource to like bounce stuff off of, Like

0:46:17.120 --> 0:46:20.560
<v Speaker 2>the reddit boards for these things are fantastic. Really, yeah,

0:46:20.560 --> 0:46:22.160
<v Speaker 2>they're great. I mean if you go on too, like

0:46:22.239 --> 0:46:25.160
<v Speaker 2>the staircase reddit board, it's it's so good. And some

0:46:25.200 --> 0:46:27.200
<v Speaker 2>of the people on there, you're you're like, oh, like

0:46:27.280 --> 0:46:29.840
<v Speaker 2>it's just someone like lurking on Reddit and some idiot

0:46:29.880 --> 0:46:35.120
<v Speaker 2>Like No, there's people that get obsessed, yeah, with these.

0:46:34.880 --> 0:46:37.279
<v Speaker 1>Shows and with the forensic analysis.

0:46:36.719 --> 0:46:38.680
<v Speaker 2>And they do their own and some of the things

0:46:38.719 --> 0:46:42.880
<v Speaker 2>that they come up with are incredible, like absolutely, and

0:46:43.160 --> 0:46:45.640
<v Speaker 2>these are people that are just like true crime fans. Yeah,

0:46:46.000 --> 0:46:49.480
<v Speaker 2>so the boards are an excellent resource if you are

0:46:49.600 --> 0:46:52.399
<v Speaker 2>watching a show and you want to learn more, it's

0:46:52.480 --> 0:46:52.880
<v Speaker 2>the reddit.

0:46:53.040 --> 0:46:55.799
<v Speaker 1>Go to Reddit. Reddit's awesome, I'm telling you. Yeah, it's

0:46:55.840 --> 0:46:56.320
<v Speaker 1>a good one.

0:46:56.480 --> 0:46:57.160
<v Speaker 2>I love Reddit.

0:46:57.280 --> 0:46:57.520
<v Speaker 1>Same.

0:46:57.640 --> 0:46:58.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:46:58.239 --> 0:47:00.680
<v Speaker 1>In between the trolls and weird comments, you get you

0:47:00.719 --> 0:47:01.719
<v Speaker 1>get some good resources.

0:47:01.760 --> 0:47:03.160
<v Speaker 2>I'll say that you got to go to the right

0:47:03.239 --> 0:47:04.760
<v Speaker 2>red Yeah, and it's.

0:47:04.600 --> 0:47:05.640
<v Speaker 1>A search, but you get there.

0:47:05.719 --> 0:47:06.759
<v Speaker 2>Yes, exactly.

0:47:06.920 --> 0:47:09.280
<v Speaker 1>Wow. Yeah, I'm now shocked that you didn't win Survivor.

0:47:09.280 --> 0:47:10.600
<v Speaker 1>I feel like you're a great storyteller.

0:47:11.760 --> 0:47:14.719
<v Speaker 2>You saw my season I did. It was I had

0:47:14.719 --> 0:47:15.600
<v Speaker 2>a difficult boot.

0:47:16.520 --> 0:47:18.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what happened with yours?

0:47:18.760 --> 0:47:20.440
<v Speaker 2>We were at a four to four split and they

0:47:20.480 --> 0:47:26.719
<v Speaker 2>gave a one of my enemies a vote block, and

0:47:26.760 --> 0:47:29.000
<v Speaker 2>she blocked my vote and then it turned it into

0:47:29.040 --> 0:47:31.560
<v Speaker 2>a four to three and then I got voted off.

0:47:31.640 --> 0:47:34.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah that ain't right, No, it was, it was. It was.

0:47:34.719 --> 0:47:40.360
<v Speaker 2>It was a laughable way to go at because even

0:47:40.400 --> 0:47:43.000
<v Speaker 2>when the votes were being read, I was just laughing

0:47:43.040 --> 0:47:44.520
<v Speaker 2>to myself. I was like, what am I supposed to

0:47:44.560 --> 0:47:45.120
<v Speaker 2>do in this situation?

0:47:45.160 --> 0:47:45.960
<v Speaker 1>What are your chances?

0:47:46.320 --> 0:47:48.440
<v Speaker 2>It was a four to four split For people that

0:47:48.480 --> 0:47:53.239
<v Speaker 2>don't know, and uh, there was a swap, and I

0:47:53.400 --> 0:47:55.359
<v Speaker 2>was with part of my original four and then four

0:47:55.360 --> 0:47:56.959
<v Speaker 2>people on the other side, and we made a tribe

0:47:56.960 --> 0:47:58.359
<v Speaker 2>of eight. And it was at four to four, and

0:47:58.400 --> 0:48:00.799
<v Speaker 2>we had convinced the other tribe to at least two

0:48:00.840 --> 0:48:04.000
<v Speaker 2>of them to switch over to us immediately, so it

0:48:04.080 --> 0:48:05.919
<v Speaker 2>was gonna be six to two or seven to one.

0:48:06.800 --> 0:48:08.759
<v Speaker 2>But then they gave her the vote block, and then

0:48:09.640 --> 0:48:11.680
<v Speaker 2>the numbershipped it quickly and they were like, oh, we

0:48:11.680 --> 0:48:14.040
<v Speaker 2>could beat them now, like we're not gonna flip.

0:48:14.120 --> 0:48:14.840
<v Speaker 1>Oh that sucks.

0:48:14.920 --> 0:48:16.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but I don't love that.

0:48:16.800 --> 0:48:17.799
<v Speaker 1>I feel like you would have bline.

0:48:18.360 --> 0:48:21.640
<v Speaker 2>Well, you're best friends with the guy that did.

0:48:21.520 --> 0:48:24.520
<v Speaker 1>Win, Yeah, yeah, But I mean I feel like that

0:48:24.560 --> 0:48:26.759
<v Speaker 1>would have been an interesting final two between you two.

0:48:26.840 --> 0:48:29.520
<v Speaker 2>Oh, it would have been really fun to go back

0:48:29.560 --> 0:48:31.560
<v Speaker 2>and forth in terms of who played a better game.

0:48:31.920 --> 0:48:33.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because Tommy can argue he was.

0:48:33.680 --> 0:48:34.200
<v Speaker 2>Scared of me.

0:48:34.520 --> 0:48:35.040
<v Speaker 1>Oh he was.

0:48:35.200 --> 0:48:37.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he was scared of you, he said. He says

0:48:37.800 --> 0:48:40.600
<v Speaker 2>it to this day. Thank god you got voted off

0:48:40.640 --> 0:48:43.760
<v Speaker 2>there so I didn't have to vote you off because

0:48:43.760 --> 0:48:45.920
<v Speaker 2>it could have ruined our friendship. You know, Tommy and

0:48:45.960 --> 0:48:50.320
<v Speaker 2>I are very close to Yeah, like, but geez, I

0:48:50.320 --> 0:48:53.120
<v Speaker 2>don't know. You never know who could have won. But

0:48:53.160 --> 0:48:55.839
<v Speaker 2>I started off the game really poorly, really really poorly.

0:48:55.880 --> 0:48:57.560
<v Speaker 2>I made some mistakes at the beginning of the game,

0:48:58.239 --> 0:48:59.799
<v Speaker 2>and so I would have had a good story to

0:48:59.800 --> 0:49:02.799
<v Speaker 2>tell at the end and said I was the easiest

0:49:03.320 --> 0:49:05.839
<v Speaker 2>first vote ever and you can let me stick around.

0:49:05.880 --> 0:49:08.200
<v Speaker 2>And now I'm here. Yeah, and like I'm not here

0:49:08.320 --> 0:49:11.200
<v Speaker 2>just because I like roade coattails, like you all came

0:49:11.239 --> 0:49:14.319
<v Speaker 2>to me for advice, like I pulled my strings and

0:49:14.440 --> 0:49:15.520
<v Speaker 2>I ended up sitting here.

0:49:15.760 --> 0:49:20.160
<v Speaker 1>Geez. But well, if there's ever another second, chances and

0:49:20.200 --> 0:49:21.880
<v Speaker 1>I feel like you'd be perfect for it. No chance,

0:49:22.239 --> 0:49:27.080
<v Speaker 1>no chance, zero chance, zero chance. Okay, well my brain,

0:49:27.160 --> 0:49:29.840
<v Speaker 1>you can have my spot. Okay, great, Yes, well I

0:49:29.840 --> 0:49:31.840
<v Speaker 1>can't even get on, so maybe one.

0:49:31.680 --> 0:49:33.440
<v Speaker 2>Of these one day one. Don't give up.

0:49:33.480 --> 0:49:34.160
<v Speaker 1>You're so true.

0:49:34.239 --> 0:49:35.239
<v Speaker 2>Don't give up.

0:49:35.400 --> 0:49:37.439
<v Speaker 1>Yeah it's only been five years, but it's fine.

0:49:37.480 --> 0:49:38.080
<v Speaker 2>Don't give up.

0:49:38.800 --> 0:49:41.960
<v Speaker 1>But no, this was super interesting, Yeah, extremely fascinating.

0:49:42.040 --> 0:49:43.880
<v Speaker 2>I hope you enjoyed the story.

0:49:44.000 --> 0:49:47.480
<v Speaker 1>I need murder cases, yeah, to bring up to you now, okay,

0:49:47.600 --> 0:49:49.279
<v Speaker 1>because I want to see it broken down for me.

0:49:49.440 --> 0:49:51.840
<v Speaker 2>Okay, I know something is guilty.

0:49:51.800 --> 0:49:53.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I want to know why it's guilty, and if

0:49:53.680 --> 0:49:55.800
<v Speaker 1>it's not guilty, I want to know why. Yeah, because

0:49:56.120 --> 0:49:57.799
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna be the idiot who sees it as the

0:49:57.800 --> 0:49:59.760
<v Speaker 1>cut and dry one and I need the Netflix documentary

0:49:59.800 --> 0:50:02.200
<v Speaker 1>to it down. But even Netflix documentaries, I have to say,

0:50:02.960 --> 0:50:04.520
<v Speaker 1>sometimes they get a little carried away.

0:50:04.680 --> 0:50:07.960
<v Speaker 2>Yes, And also one of the issues when it comes

0:50:07.960 --> 0:50:11.800
<v Speaker 2>to like crime is you have people that are really

0:50:11.960 --> 0:50:16.320
<v Speaker 2>passionate one side or another side, right, and it's very

0:50:16.320 --> 0:50:18.680
<v Speaker 2>difficult for some people to take an honest look at

0:50:18.719 --> 0:50:23.319
<v Speaker 2>the facts and make a determination of like true will happened. So, like,

0:50:23.760 --> 0:50:28.319
<v Speaker 2>one of my friends is a public defender, and if

0:50:28.360 --> 0:50:30.560
<v Speaker 2>she sat in this chair right now and she explained

0:50:30.560 --> 0:50:32.319
<v Speaker 2>everything to you, she would have been like, there's no

0:50:32.360 --> 0:50:34.840
<v Speaker 2>way he did it, blah, and like would have like

0:50:35.040 --> 0:50:37.960
<v Speaker 2>argued it and argued it passionately and eloquently. But at

0:50:38.000 --> 0:50:40.200
<v Speaker 2>the same time she would it would have been the

0:50:40.320 --> 0:50:44.319
<v Speaker 2>under there would have been underpinnings of bias, right, And

0:50:44.400 --> 0:50:47.359
<v Speaker 2>so I'm a little step away from it. I don't

0:50:47.360 --> 0:50:51.200
<v Speaker 2>really do criminal stuff. I do injury cases. So like

0:50:51.280 --> 0:50:53.160
<v Speaker 2>I like to always take a look at like, Okay,

0:50:53.200 --> 0:50:56.200
<v Speaker 2>these are the facts, what's the law, what's the likelihood

0:50:56.239 --> 0:50:58.360
<v Speaker 2>of certain things happening, rather than just to argue a

0:50:58.400 --> 0:51:00.960
<v Speaker 2>position because that's my occupation or job.

0:51:01.080 --> 0:51:02.680
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's interesting because law is kind of like a

0:51:02.719 --> 0:51:05.600
<v Speaker 1>doctor in that regard that you kind of pick what

0:51:06.000 --> 0:51:08.960
<v Speaker 1>you like. Yes, in like, are you more of a

0:51:08.960 --> 0:51:13.240
<v Speaker 1>contract lawyer, are you more of like an injury attorney?

0:51:13.320 --> 0:51:14.839
<v Speaker 1>Or do you want to do more public defending because

0:51:14.840 --> 0:51:19.279
<v Speaker 1>the public defender is probably extremely different arguing style, storytelling,

0:51:19.719 --> 0:51:20.759
<v Speaker 1>all that from what you do.

0:51:20.920 --> 0:51:24.799
<v Speaker 2>Yes, So you see I'm battling against the bias of

0:51:24.840 --> 0:51:27.520
<v Speaker 2>the public. Even when we were recording with Scotty, I

0:51:27.640 --> 0:51:30.279
<v Speaker 2>hear ambulance chaser and all these things. Yes, right, And

0:51:30.320 --> 0:51:33.319
<v Speaker 2>everyone thinks that a plaintiff in a personal injury case

0:51:33.440 --> 0:51:35.680
<v Speaker 2>is lying. So it's very interesting like.

0:51:35.680 --> 0:51:38.040
<v Speaker 1>During your starting off like a step behind.

0:51:37.760 --> 0:51:40.520
<v Speaker 2>Always starting a step behind, crazy, and so you have

0:51:40.600 --> 0:51:43.600
<v Speaker 2>to and the defendants use that to their advantage.

0:51:43.680 --> 0:51:43.759
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:51:44.040 --> 0:51:46.480
<v Speaker 2>The main defense on almost all these cases are that

0:51:46.560 --> 0:51:50.040
<v Speaker 2>my clients are liars, cheats, and frauds. Geez, you want

0:51:50.040 --> 0:51:52.400
<v Speaker 2>to know how I address that? On my opening statement,

0:51:52.480 --> 0:51:54.239
<v Speaker 2>I stand up and say, I'm just going to tell you.

0:51:54.320 --> 0:51:55.719
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what the defense is going to say

0:51:55.719 --> 0:51:57.600
<v Speaker 2>in this case, but I have a feeling. Their defense

0:51:57.680 --> 0:51:59.439
<v Speaker 2>is going to be that my client's a liar, a cheat,

0:51:59.440 --> 0:52:01.480
<v Speaker 2>and a fraud. So that's what this case is going

0:52:01.520 --> 0:52:02.960
<v Speaker 2>to come down to. So you need to decide that

0:52:02.960 --> 0:52:06.000
<v Speaker 2>for yourself. Yeah, like just call it out, Like they're

0:52:06.040 --> 0:52:07.759
<v Speaker 2>not gonna come up and stand up and say that

0:52:07.800 --> 0:52:09.520
<v Speaker 2>she's a liar, a cheat or a fraud, but you

0:52:09.760 --> 0:52:11.560
<v Speaker 2>better read between the lines, and that's what they're gonna

0:52:11.560 --> 0:52:15.319
<v Speaker 2>be telling you exactly. So you have to decide are

0:52:15.360 --> 0:52:19.120
<v Speaker 2>they lying or are they cheating because and I for them,

0:52:19.400 --> 0:52:21.799
<v Speaker 2>I submit to you that they're not. But that's gonna

0:52:21.800 --> 0:52:23.040
<v Speaker 2>be up up to you to decide.

0:52:23.120 --> 0:52:23.359
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

0:52:24.000 --> 0:52:25.480
<v Speaker 2>Wow, wow, wow, fun stuff.

0:52:25.640 --> 0:52:26.279
<v Speaker 1>I love this.

0:52:26.360 --> 0:52:27.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's really fun.

0:52:27.320 --> 0:52:28.080
<v Speaker 1>This was so fine.

0:52:28.120 --> 0:52:28.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:52:28.320 --> 0:52:30.879
<v Speaker 1>I love being a lawyer, Yes, love it so fine.

0:52:30.920 --> 0:52:32.520
<v Speaker 1>And I like being able to have a podcast, so

0:52:32.560 --> 0:52:33.160
<v Speaker 1>this is great.

0:52:33.719 --> 0:52:34.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:52:34.160 --> 0:52:36.480
<v Speaker 1>Well, if there's any murder that you could think of

0:52:37.520 --> 0:52:40.640
<v Speaker 1>that you want maybe Jason to break down, yeah, please

0:52:40.719 --> 0:52:43.120
<v Speaker 1>send it or post it in the comments below if

0:52:43.120 --> 0:52:47.040
<v Speaker 1>you aren't watching on YouTube, or send a DM whatever, because.

0:52:46.800 --> 0:52:50.919
<v Speaker 2>Even civil cases like sometimes those like you know, there's

0:52:51.440 --> 0:52:54.800
<v Speaker 2>businesses with families and who's right and who's wrong and

0:52:54.920 --> 0:52:59.279
<v Speaker 2>things like all all these things are interesting, and I

0:52:59.280 --> 0:53:02.120
<v Speaker 2>think it's really helpful to just like spread knowledge so

0:53:02.200 --> 0:53:05.160
<v Speaker 2>people have like a real, actual understanding of what's going on.

0:53:05.360 --> 0:53:08.680
<v Speaker 1>Yes. So again, I'm like pitbullish in that way where

0:53:08.680 --> 0:53:10.720
<v Speaker 1>it's like, if there's what you're saying, like a crack

0:53:10.760 --> 0:53:13.960
<v Speaker 1>of doubt, I want to figure it out. Yeah, And

0:53:14.000 --> 0:53:16.399
<v Speaker 1>so this helps me because I feel like I now

0:53:16.400 --> 0:53:18.800
<v Speaker 1>believe the owl theory could very much be true.

0:53:18.880 --> 0:53:19.920
<v Speaker 2>Why not? Yeah?

0:53:20.120 --> 0:53:20.440
<v Speaker 1>Why not?

0:53:20.680 --> 0:53:21.040
<v Speaker 2>Why not?

0:53:21.440 --> 0:53:21.799
<v Speaker 1>Why not?

0:53:22.120 --> 0:53:24.759
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I think that would raise sufficient reasonable doubt

0:53:24.800 --> 0:53:26.960
<v Speaker 2>if it had been presented properly to a jury.

0:53:28.160 --> 0:53:31.120
<v Speaker 1>Wow, and let's end it there. Yep, thank you guys

0:53:31.160 --> 0:53:35.000
<v Speaker 1>so much for listening. Watch the subscribe button somewhere on YouTube,

0:53:36.000 --> 0:53:38.120
<v Speaker 1>like and comment you know all the things the Serial

0:53:38.160 --> 0:53:40.359
<v Speaker 1>Killers PC. We're gonna be back on Monday. I don't

0:53:40.360 --> 0:53:44.399
<v Speaker 1>know with what episode. That's Scott's job, but yeah, thank

0:53:44.440 --> 0:53:46.480
<v Speaker 1>you for another bonus episode.

0:53:46.160 --> 0:53:47.960
<v Speaker 2>Jason, thank you for having me.

0:53:48.239 --> 0:53:50.399
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, we'll do a murder one again.

0:53:50.520 --> 0:53:52.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, or maybe we'll do a Muppets one. Yes, we

0:53:53.200 --> 0:53:54.080
<v Speaker 2>don't know where it's gonna go.

0:53:54.160 --> 0:53:56.520
<v Speaker 1>It's gonna go south real quick. Something tells me we're

0:53:56.520 --> 0:54:00.879
<v Speaker 1>gonna figure it out all right, See that's that diabetes

0:54:01.200 --> 0:54:02.759
<v Speaker 1>that sounds fun. Alright, we're gonna end there.