1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 3 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one 4 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 5 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 6 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 7 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, But you 8 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:26,639 Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Robert doing the grune so 9 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: we can start the podcast. Um, I think we should 10 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: just start the podcast with you asking Robert, do you 11 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: want to grunt so we can start the podcast. Um? 12 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: That that seems avant garde. I don't know what I'm 13 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: on guard means, but this is it could happen here, 14 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 1: a podcast about how things are falling apart and how 15 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: maybe maybe they don't always need to be falling apart. 16 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: Maybe we could do better. Uh. Speaking of doing better, 17 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: you know one thing that sometimes helps us do better 18 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: getting getting in the face of people fucking ship up 19 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: and being like, Hey, that's not that's not cool. Don't 20 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: be doing that, Garrison. That's your leading take it from here. Yeah, Hi, 21 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: So we I've been I've been trying to keep better 22 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: a better job of like following ecological defense movements happening 23 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: both in the States and in other countries. I know 24 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: there was there was a big one up in Canada recently. 25 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: There was a huge one in Germany too, just the 26 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: other day. Yeah, I know the one, the one in Canada. 27 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: There's a uh the uh I forget, I forget what 28 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: the actual indigenous group is called. Um maybe maybe someone else. 29 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: So the the um house on Sauti Um. Yeah, the 30 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:47,199 Speaker 1: people who who who took back their land and blocked 31 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: the road off and now there and the wet suit end. 32 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, thank you. Um there 33 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: we go, Yeah, basically taking their land back, blocking off 34 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: the road and now our same piece getting call then 35 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: and we'll see how that develops. And in Guatemala there's 36 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: protests against Canadian mining UM in Maya indigenous community that 37 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: have have have gotten pretty heavily militarized at this point. 38 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: There's fun, there's a lot of stuff. There's a lot 39 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: of stuff of stuff on the psychological defense side of things, UM, 40 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: including including in you know, the Pacific Northwest here with 41 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: all of with all of the forests and and as such, 42 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: in this area and part of this kind of exploration 43 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: into into ecological defense, I wanted to talk with some 44 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: people who are a little a little bit more well 45 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: versed in this type of thing than I am. So 46 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: I've there's the two people have agreed to talk with us, 47 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 1: Um salmon Cat, both people who work who work on 48 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: the kind of thing from like an activism standpoint. Yeah, 49 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: say hi, hello, hey y'all. So very very thankful that 50 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: they are to be talking with us today. So I 51 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: thought we could we could probably just start by kind 52 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: of discussing what forest defense is and how it kind 53 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: of has a history specifically in this area, but but 54 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 1: kind of more broadly, like if if people listened to 55 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: the Earth First episodes, you know, that kind of that 56 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: covered like anti pipeline stuff. We didn't really get much 57 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: into like forest defense and you know, like the traditional 58 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: like tree sits and that kind of thing. UM. So, 59 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: so yeah, what's what's up with defending the forest? What's 60 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: what's what's going on with that? Um? Yeah, thanks for 61 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: that great intro. UM. I mean, forest defense is I 62 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: think probably the most characteristic um type of direct action 63 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: in this bioregion. And here we're talking from Cascadia right now. 64 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: I actually moved out here from the East Coast ten 65 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: years ago specifically to get involved with forest defense, because 66 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: this place has an incredibly rich history UM of people 67 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: basically just throwing down, risking life and limb to stop 68 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: jain saws from taking down some of the oldest and 69 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: most special for rists out here. UM. And so i'd say, 70 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: you know, for forest defense direct action is in a 71 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: lot of ways rooted right here UM, in this bioregion. 72 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: And obviously, UM, like all kinds of movements, things have 73 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: changed over the course of time. UM. Back in the eighties. UM, 74 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: when in seventies, when forest defense was really really kicking 75 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: up and stopping old growth logging, specifically out here, when 76 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: it was kind of like rampant old growth, UM clear cutting. UM, 77 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 1: it really took the shape of trying to focusing on ecology, 78 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: focusing on the integrity of these ecosystems, and basically like 79 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: doing everything possible to stop the chainsaws. And UM. Now 80 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,239 Speaker 1: obviously a lot has changed. We have the Northwest Forest 81 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: Plan and some policies which are doing better to kind 82 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: of like protect old places and old forests. But at 83 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: the same time, the same ship is happening. UM. You know, 84 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: the timber industry is great at using euphemisms to kind 85 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: of cover up it's clear cutting anyways, and finding policy 86 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 1: loopholes to get some incredible places. And now I think, um, 87 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: where we're at with like the direct action movement is 88 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 1: we're in the context of climate change, So we're not 89 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: just defending forests for the stake of these like incredible 90 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: ecological strongholds, but we're also defending them because we recognize 91 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: that forest defense is climate defense. This is a like 92 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: environmental justice issue, it's a human issue, it's a community issue. Um. 93 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: And so now direct action I think is um, you know, 94 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: happening not just the name of our forests, but in 95 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: the name of our communities in our future. Um. But 96 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 1: it's just as rich um now as it has ever been, 97 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: and especially right now and especially since which I know 98 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: we'll get into, people have been throwing down all over 99 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: this bio region to protect what's left of our forests. Yeah, 100 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: and I think it's it's good to get into kind 101 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: of why how the fires have impacted this because one 102 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: of the shady things that has been done is we 103 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: had I think most people in the country are where 104 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: Oregon had unprecedented wildfires this year, and we had unprecedented 105 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 1: wildfires last and we we're going to have unprecedented wildfires 106 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 1: every year for a while. Um And whenever these fires 107 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 1: run through, they don't like destroy every tree in their wake, 108 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: but they char them. And logging companies then come in 109 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: under the guise of like, well, we have to make 110 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: this area safe so that like the fires don't burn 111 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: here next year, So we've got to cut down all 112 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: of these trees, um and and clear cut this part 113 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: of area of public forests. So like as you're driving 114 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: around in forests that you used to be able to 115 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: do stuff, and you'll find areas that are just like 116 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: blocked off because mining companies are coming or logging companies 117 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: are coming through and clear cutting all of these trees 118 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: that could very easily recover from the fire um or 119 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: that weren't even burned by it. But we're just like 120 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: in this area that they said, Okay, well we have 121 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: to clear this out in order to make it safe. 122 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: And it's kind of this way to like back door 123 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 1: and the guise of fire protection like expand logging. Yeah, 124 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: and just to add that to the logging companies love 125 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: to say that the reasons we have increased wildfires because 126 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: there's an overgrowth in the forest because of the Northwest 127 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: Forest plant. Because there's more protections for the forest. Fires 128 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: are happening worse because we're not getting there bogging the 129 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: forest and removing all the fuel. Mh. So we have 130 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: like this two part thing that like Kat just mentioned, 131 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: where like, on the one hand, companies are like, we 132 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: need to log more to prevent wildfire, which is bullshit 133 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: and we can talk about why. And on the other hand, 134 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: after fires burned through an area, they're like, we need 135 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: to log because we need to help the forest recover ecologically. Also, 136 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: we need to salvage all of the timber before it 137 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: rots and goes bad, and like all of these reasons 138 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: and so basically it's just like fire has become the 139 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: excuse to just like log preemptively and log after the fact. 140 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: And yeah, it's a total total ship show. Yeah, I 141 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: mean the think this this kind of falls into capitalists 142 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: trying to use climate change is just another way to 143 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: find things to extract and things to grow on. Right, 144 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: it's there they're going to try to find their own 145 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: way to sneak in when all of this, you know, 146 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: ecological disaster is happening to you know, sell you whatever 147 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: green safe product is going to help against the collapse, 148 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: or you know, package things in a way that makes 149 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: it seem like it's solving this you know problem, but 150 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: it's actually it's part of it's part of the same 151 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: thing from the yeah yeah, yeah, yeah right. It's it's 152 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: you see, that's in every single industry, and it's always 153 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: it's it's gonna be like this because this is the 154 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: only way that capitalism knows how to address this issue 155 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: is abouty just turning it into another turning it into 156 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: another thing to consume and another thing to sell in package. 157 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: Pretty pretty grib Yeah. And there's I mean, there's cascading 158 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: effects too, because they cut down these trees under the 159 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 1: guise of making it safe for the next fire season, 160 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 1: but which also makes a big chunk of land a 161 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: lot more vulnerable to like mud slides and the torrential 162 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: raining that we're having right now. Um, and that's also 163 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: going to get more common because that's how fucking climate 164 00:08:55,760 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: change works. It's it's just like comprehensive factory, comprehensive fatory. 165 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: And let us be clear to that logging doesn't actually 166 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: work to prevent wildfire, you know, even you know, they 167 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: say that it does, but the kind of logging that 168 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: they do in the name of wildfire prevention just looks 169 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: like clear cuts. And we have a pretty robust body 170 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: of science now showing that those kinds of activities actually 171 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: make fire hazard more severe for local communities. So that's 172 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:26,719 Speaker 1: like one of the things they're doing. And we've been 173 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: calling it just gaslighting, Like they're gas lighting all of 174 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: us by saying, you know, there's nothing to see here, 175 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: there's nothing to see here, we're taking care of you all. 176 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: You know, we're barely logging at all. And then we've 177 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: got community members on the ground, um, despite the closure 178 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 1: orders who are like, actually there's a lot to see here, 179 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: and you all are like completely devastating the landscape and 180 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: further harming our communities. Um. So yeah, it's total gaslighting. Yeah, 181 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: an Oregon has both in terms of like watching fires 182 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: and watching logging, some like rules that are not in 183 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: place in other areas, especially for like even for for 184 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: press and the like. Like it's it's actually hard to 185 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: get in to look at this stuff, um without you know, 186 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: breaking some sort of law technically, which is not at 187 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: all shady. Um. Yeah, Yeah, I feel like that's another 188 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 1: important thing and maybe cat can jump onto is just 189 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: um basically, I mean, I think what people aren't understanding 190 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: is that after the fires, the these federal forest managers 191 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: closed gates and essentially are converting public land into private 192 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: land by you know, using the threat of violence to 193 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: kick people out if they go onto their public land. 194 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 1: And since and they say until at least the only 195 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: folks allowed behind these gates are cops and loggers, and 196 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: so this is like literally, um, you know, the enclosure 197 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: of our public lands and like the privatization of our 198 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: public lands so that cops and loggers can do whatever 199 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: the hell they want. Yeah, And it's the kind of 200 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: thing I mean, it's the kind of thing that people 201 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: if you're if you're if the if the Bundy's and 202 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: that group actually meant the stuff they were saying, like 203 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: the rhetoric they were putting out, it's the kind of 204 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: thing they would be piste off about. Two, Because you're right, 205 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: it is the enclosure of public land by the government, 206 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: um and corporations without any kind of consent from the 207 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: people who are supposed to be the collective owners of 208 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: that land. It's it's a again, something that a lot 209 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: of people should be angry about, who aren't angry about 210 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: because there's been this huge propaganda campaign in the Northwest 211 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: about timber unity and the like and like supporting the 212 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: timber industry, um by destroying like the single greatest gift 213 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,719 Speaker 1: this entire part of the world has. Uh it's it's 214 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: pretty frustrating yeasting. Anyway, I have to we have to 215 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: actually have a quick break so I can go watch 216 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:58,719 Speaker 1: my soccer game at the Timber Stadium. Uh, completely unrelated. 217 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: So I'm an drive out to Wheeler, Oregon myself. But 218 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 1: we all have different things to do during the break, um. 219 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: But also in the break, I guess we could probably 220 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: do an AD break here, because why not? All right, Yeah, 221 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: everybody loves ads. And we're back still talking about force defense. 222 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:17,959 Speaker 1: I wanted there's something that people should probably know before 223 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: we go further about the way that that Oregon works. 224 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: So for a while, Oregon is a place where you 225 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: can't get elected um in a lot of parts of 226 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: a lot of populated parts of Oregon if you're a Republican. 227 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: So the Republicans just plain ice um and and pretend 228 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: and like throw out some some social justice. The language 229 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: while while still doing all of the extract of stuff 230 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: they were going to do anyway. And that's the story 231 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: with like Ted Wheeler, um and his family. So Ted 232 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: Ted Wheeler, the mayor of Portland, comes from timber money. 233 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: His father was a major Republican dontor. Not that the 234 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: Democrats don't have a lot of extractive history behind them, 235 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: but like it's it's very obvious what's happening with the 236 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: Wheelers where um, they were huge republic and donors and 237 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: huge backers of the right, and then Oregon had this 238 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 1: kind of switch politically, um, and so Ted Wheeler just 239 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: started throwing out nice social justice e language. But the 240 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: the whole you know, he's he's I'm sure going to 241 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: make a run for governor at some point in the 242 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: near future. And you've got this like this dressed up 243 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: very extractive logging industry and politicians that always find a 244 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 1: way to kind of make it seem palatable to the 245 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: liberal majority. Um that and they've gotten pretty good at 246 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: that because it doesn't I don't know, I think maybe 247 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: we're coming to the end of this period, but like 248 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: I haven't, I haven't seen up until this last year 249 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: a lot of widespread kind of outrage about the clear 250 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: cutting um, and they also hide it pretty well. Like 251 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: if you're driving through these beautiful public forests in Oregon, 252 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: the areas that are right along the road will generally 253 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: be pristine and you'll see old growth and everything. But 254 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: sometimes you can see, as you like turn a corner 255 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: or something that like, oh, that old growth only goes 256 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: back a couple of couple of dozen yards and then 257 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: it's a clear cut um, and they'll they'll they'll hide 258 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: it so that it's it's not as obvious because they 259 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: know what upsets people. So there's this, there's this kind 260 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: of surprisingly um surprisingly thorough campaign to do as much 261 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: of this as possible without upsetting people, um, which which 262 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 1: means there's a potential to upset people, which means there's 263 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: a potential to actually stop this if enough people get upset. 264 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: But it's you know, you're you're you're going against folks 265 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: who have thought a lot about how to do this 266 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: in a way that isn't going to upset the apple cart. 267 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: So how do you upset the apple cart? I guess 268 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: that is what I'm asking. Well, I think one way 269 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: that we upset the apple cart is by bringing people 270 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: out to these places. And you know, in the action 271 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: that happened on Tuesday that looked like disrupting and disobeying 272 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: a federal closure order in order to bring people out 273 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: to these places. UM. You know, basically metaphorically walking behind 274 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: what you were describing the beauty strip along the highway 275 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: and seeing what's behind it. Um. And you know, as 276 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: we were saying earlier, unfortunately, because of all these federal 277 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: closure orders after the fire, that looks like risking um, 278 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: you know, repercussion, state repression, arrest even um, in order 279 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: to just lay eyes on it. But that is the 280 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: way that we chipped the apple cart. We get people 281 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: to see these places so that it cuts through the 282 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: gas lighting that the industry is doing and people can 283 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: literally viscerally feel and see the damage. Um. And there's 284 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: no way to convince them that that's okay once they 285 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: see it. And how do you do go about like 286 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: finding people to bring into this, convincing people to come, 287 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: Like what does kind of that effort look like? You 288 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: want to answer this one cat, You did a ton 289 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: of recruitment, Yeah, totally. UM. I think a big part 290 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: of it is getting them while they're young. UM. I 291 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: think that like young people right now are already pretty radicalized, 292 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: um compared to ten years or so, probably because of 293 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: I think George Floyd and Black Lives Matter and social 294 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: the use of social media and those movements. UM. So 295 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: I I am a college student and we're seeing like 296 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: so many people coming in and ready to throw down, 297 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: like they just cannot wait to get involved, and we'll 298 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: kind of just show up to anything. Um. So I 299 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: think that that's like a major tactic for sure. UM. 300 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: And then also making sure that when you have like 301 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: a an action that you're recruiting people for that it's 302 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: I'm very easy to plug in. It's like very accessible, 303 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: um and kind of just like having it organized very 304 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: well so it's not daunting to come in. Do you 305 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: want to add to that, Sam, Well, just to like 306 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: share a little more about like how we did that 307 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:47,119 Speaker 1: with this particular action that happened on Tuesday. Um. Basically, 308 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: you know, we it was a Tuesday, brainy, freezing middle 309 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: of the forest planning this action, did not think and 310 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: behind a federal closure order. So every one on site 311 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 1: risking arrest, um and planning this action, it felt like 312 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,120 Speaker 1: we would be lucky as ship if we got ten 313 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 1: people out there UM. But I will say, UM, it 314 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: was easy as ship to get fifty people out there, 315 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 1: and that's because people care. UM. And you know, I 316 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: think we did. In terms of organizing strategy, we used 317 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: the affinity group model, and so we had a core 318 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: you know, there was a core group of organizers, and 319 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: those organizers recruited through affinity groups and their affinity groups 320 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: and UM. That helped to keep kind of information secure 321 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,880 Speaker 1: and UM, you know, everything tightly organized. But UM, people want. 322 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 1: People were really desiring to get together and do something, 323 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: especially the past couple of years of COVID, people are 324 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 1: just like eager to do something. UM. And on top 325 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: of that, you know, we we promised that this isn't 326 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: just an opportunity to potentially get arrested, but this is 327 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: an educational opportunity and a movement building opportunities. So while 328 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: the road was blocked with a slash pile and a 329 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: fire truck, there were workshops going on. There were hikes 330 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 1: going on in the forest that's supposed to be cut. UM. 331 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: There was discussions about know your rights trainings and affinity groups. 332 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 1: We had a band um playing on top of a 333 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: fire truck, and there was a dance party and basically 334 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: you know, we're like building community and solidarity UM in 335 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: a positive way while sucking shut up. I think that's 336 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: the key. And I mean, where do you uh, how 337 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: do how do you have like what is the I 338 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: let me think of a way to phrase this. What 339 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: is kind of the next step here? Because they haven't 340 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: started logging this area yet, but they're kind of doing 341 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: like the pre prep work. Um, what do you what 342 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,199 Speaker 1: do you think actually can be done to to halt it? 343 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: Like is it? Is it a problem? Like? Because it 344 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: seems to me that it's there's got to be like 345 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 1: a mix of tactics there to actually get them to stop. 346 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: And you're dealing with a number of different UM threats 347 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 1: include not just at the state level, but these federal 348 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 1: closure orders Like what is I don't know what what 349 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 1: does the path forward look like to you? Yeah, So 350 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 1: there's a preliminary injunction being forth by some nonprofits and 351 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: so this is a really good example of different tactics 352 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 1: coming in and so UM. The preliminary injunction is basically 353 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: to state that what they're doing before a service is 354 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 1: doing is illegal. UM. But before that that can be passed, 355 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: they can come in at any point and log the area. 356 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 1: And so that's where direct action comes in to slow 357 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: them down and halp them as much as possible until 358 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: the courts can process that injunction. And that feels really 359 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 1: huge to Like what Kat just said is like where 360 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: is the place of direct action in forest defense? This 361 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: is like the golden moment for direct action while there's 362 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 1: like an open legal case that we're waiting on a 363 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: judge to settle, and the timber industry is like coming 364 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: in ready to moot out the case by logging before 365 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 1: it can even be decided. And like to just add 366 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: a little bit more backstory to on, Like another reason 367 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: why people are so pissed about this um is that 368 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: you know, this watershed has been I think like beloved 369 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: and also embattled since the eighties. Like the infamous Easter 370 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 1: massacre logging event happened in the same watershed. Where could 371 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 1: you explain, Yeah, yeah, no, totally um it M. A 372 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: timber company was planning to clear cut log old growth 373 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: forest out there and started moving on it on Easter 374 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: um in the snow, and a bunch of badass direct 375 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: action activists set up a five tiered blockade on a 376 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: logging road to hold off the logging and successfully did 377 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 1: for um days and days until a bunch of them, 378 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: I think over a dozen folks got arrested, thrown in 379 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 1: jail and the forest was clear cut. UM. So hence 380 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: you know the Eastern massacre name UM. But a ton 381 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: of folks who you know still work in forest defense 382 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 1: in the spy A region. We're there and remember for 383 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: that story, and we're with us UM when we were 384 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 1: out there this week telling that story. And you know 385 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: since then, between and now, people have been showing up 386 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: again and again and again in this watershed because it 387 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: is so special to try and fight off flogging. And 388 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: myself and Cat have been a part of efforts over 389 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: the past handful of years to um fight off a 390 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: number of logging projects out there. We were successful in 391 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 1: doing that. We actually like snacked the Forest Services grubby 392 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 1: hands off of a bunch of oil growth because our 393 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: scrappy friends spent days exploring this watershed and documenting, doing 394 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 1: like site specific science citizen science documentation and giving it 395 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 1: to the Four Service and we fought them and one 396 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 1: and protected a bunch of the forest. And then the 397 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: fires came through and they closed the gates and they 398 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: secretly changed all of these contracts to include clear cut logging. 399 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: And so that is why there's an open lawsuit because 400 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 1: we believe it's illegal what they're doing. It's sketchy and illegal. Yeah, 401 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: but it does. It does illustrate like kind of the 402 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 1: depth of the fight necessary, not just in forest defense, 403 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,120 Speaker 1: but at all efforts of kind of resisting the extract 404 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 1: of industries that are driving a lot of climate change. 405 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: It's it's not enough, it's never enough to win the 406 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 1: first victory. They're going to find some way to to 407 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 1: to swoop around to the flanks and try to take 408 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: it away from you like they're doing right now. Um, 409 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: which is exhausting. Um, it seems exhausting, but it doesn't 410 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: mean you can ignore it. It's fucking exhausting. Yeah. I 411 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: always say it is like our forests, our federal management agencies, 412 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,679 Speaker 1: they suffer from this powerful amnesia where they just like 413 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: keep coming back with the same bullshit proposals. But like 414 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 1: our movement does not suffer from that, and we are 415 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: just like building power and getting stronger and getting more successful. 416 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: So like when people left on Tuesday, um, there was 417 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: a promise that people will be back if logging happens 418 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: and we're very sure that that will be the case. 419 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: And if if people are in the Cascadian bioregion and 420 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: are like, well this sounds pretty sweet, I wanna, I wanna, 421 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,919 Speaker 1: I wanna keep keep some trees where they are as 422 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: opposed to putting them on the back of a truck 423 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: to drive somewhere else. How could they get involved? Where 424 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:18,640 Speaker 1: where might they reach out to? Well, there's a few 425 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: different groups who were a part of this UM definitely UM, 426 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: the Portland Rising Tide, Cascadia Forest Defenders, UM CAT can 427 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 1: talk about Climate Justice League and UM maybe the action 428 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: that you all put on yesterday as a follow up 429 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: and like how folks can get involved with that UM 430 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: But basically, yeah, you can follow us on Twitter, UM 431 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: and Instagram and and please, UM, you know, keep a 432 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: lookout because we will be we'll be getting it out 433 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: far and wide if there is a call for folks 434 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: to get out there again. Yeah. And Climate Justice League 435 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: is an organ UM at the University of Oregon and 436 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: people are free to just join the organization. Community members 437 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: are also involved. UM. But we did put on an 438 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: event it yesterday where Tyler Ferris of Ferris Logging or 439 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 1: First Timber UM who is actually the company that bought 440 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: the rights to Brighten Bush, which was the area where 441 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,640 Speaker 1: we did UM the action. On Tuesday, he was giving 442 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: a speech at the University of Oregon UM to talk 443 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 1: about post fire logging, which was just like crazy timing. 444 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: They kind of just like put it in our lap. 445 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: And so we recruited from that action or like, let's 446 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: just dropt the hell out of this UM talk. And 447 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: so we like showed up and kind of tried to 448 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: sneak in. They were having zoom issues, which like luckily 449 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: distracted them from the fact that there was like forty 450 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: or fifty like pretty punk anarchy looking kids in the room. Um. 451 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: But we like let him go on for a little bit, 452 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: and then we started to ask him questions that he 453 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: obviously didn't know the answer to. Um. We kept like 454 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: asking questions about, you know, the science says this, but 455 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: you're stating this where you getting your science from? And 456 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: you kept saying things like, well, that's more of a 457 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,439 Speaker 1: political question and the statistics don't really back up what 458 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: you're saying. Um. And then yeah, we just chanted and 459 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: made him really nervous. Yeah, and as a heads up, 460 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: if you're if you're looking to win an argument on 461 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,880 Speaker 1: a zoom call. You can just say, uh, the statistics 462 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: don't back you up without citing statistics. It's it's it's 463 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: really the easiest way to do that. I guess I 464 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,360 Speaker 1: am kind of curious for like you guys said, you've 465 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 1: you've prevented you know, some of the stuff in the 466 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: past by doing stuff like documentation. Um, and you know 467 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: when when when that kind of thing becomes not enough. 468 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 1: You know that this this area does have a rich 469 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: history of kind of direct action stuff to protect forests 470 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,679 Speaker 1: with a get also like a mixed success, like by 471 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,199 Speaker 1: no means does direct action always always work to do anything? 472 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: Right now, we still have the line three pipeline, We 473 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: still have all of these things that direct action has 474 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: tried to prevent. But it turns out a lot of 475 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: the kind of direct action that's associated with these types 476 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 1: of like ecological things is kind of more performative than 477 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: anything else, you know, Like it it's kind of like 478 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: a tree set is about gaining media media like publicity, 479 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: because they're gonna get you down right like eventually, and 480 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: it's and it's and it's gonna be painful because like 481 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: you're not going to be sitting up there for years 482 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 1: to to to to to to prevent the treat from 483 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 1: being logged. So how close do you think we are 484 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: into too, like reaching that kind of territory like it 485 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: was in like the nineties and eighties where it is 486 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: like a lot of a lot of people like blocking 487 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: off roads and doing and and doing that kind of thing. 488 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 1: You know, more like you know what what it crosses 489 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: into that it's more like autonomous. It's not it's not 490 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 1: like led by a single organization by any means. See, 491 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: it's more it's more decentralized. But did you see that 492 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 1: kind of happening soon? And you know, how, how how 493 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 1: do you think we can balance out direct action with 494 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 1: like other like thoughtful means of trying to draw attention 495 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: to these things and maybe actually and and other things 496 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,719 Speaker 1: like actually physically physically preventing the logging of certain areas. 497 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: That's such a good question. And um, I'm really thankful 498 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 1: that we're talking about strategy because um, kind of, like 499 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,360 Speaker 1: I mentioned, I moved out here like ten years ago 500 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 1: to do force defense work and have seen so many 501 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: instances in where people are trying to do direct action 502 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: in a in a time and space where it doesn't 503 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,400 Speaker 1: make sense. Um, where it's like basically slated too, it's 504 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,880 Speaker 1: gonna lose because um, it's just impossible too. As you said, 505 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 1: you know, hold this blockade for weeks and weeks and 506 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 1: weeks and the snow um indefinitely, you know, as we 507 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: you know, as they continue to try to log indefinitely. 508 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 1: So there's definitely a sweet spot for where um the 509 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: sort of kind of the sort of direct action that 510 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: we're talking about, like blockading, where that is most useful. 511 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,640 Speaker 1: And that sweet spot is definitely when there is another 512 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: decisive move, like another like legal victory that's waiting in 513 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 1: the wings or um, you know, we won one in 514 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: Washington without a legal victory because we shamed the ship 515 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: out of the Department of Natural Resources in the Seattle 516 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: Times and they were like, whoa, We're sorry. Um. And 517 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 1: so direct action held off something until we are able 518 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: to sufficiently shame them and deter them. But typically they 519 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,679 Speaker 1: don't shame well um and so typically, um, you know, 520 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: we need illegal there needs to be a legal element 521 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: um backing it up. So direct action is a time buyer. 522 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 1: But that said, like obviously block hating things is not 523 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 1: the only type of direct action, and part of the 524 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: rich history of force events in the Spyer region is 525 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 1: other kinds of more um necessarily you know, discrete kinds 526 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 1: of direct action that obviously you know I'm um not 527 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:31,959 Speaker 1: a part of speaking on this radio show, but UM 528 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 1: would would publicly, um, you know, say like those things 529 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: probably need to happen, and I hope they fucking ha 530 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: what what What I could say is that I've I've 531 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: seen these things happening in other places, like in like 532 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: in the Atlanta Defending Forest movement right now, I have 533 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: I I have seen evidence that individuals not associated with 534 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: any group are putting spikes and trees and that is 535 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: that is, that is something that is happening, right, And 536 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: all that takes is one person, right, It's that's not 537 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: like a group of twenty people going into the forest 538 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: to do that. That's the one person in an afternoon, right. 539 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 1: So those are the types of like single person direct actions, 540 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: which again, yeah, any type of direct action is going 541 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: to be scary, right You're you're once you start doing that, 542 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 1: that is you know, that introduces certain things that will 543 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: is is kind of is kind of more frightening to 544 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: you as a person, um, but but it's it is 545 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 1: something that is happening in other places. Um, and it 546 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: has showed to at the very least upset the people 547 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: who are wanting logging to happen. Generally, they're not thrilled 548 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: when they when they find when they find these things. 549 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: Um yeah, yeah, because like it's like it's I mean, 550 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: I think like when it comes down to it, it's 551 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: like about knowing what your goal is with this tactic, 552 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: like on you know, in in the action that happened 553 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: this past week, there was an understanding that the goal 554 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: was to you know, shine a light on this thing 555 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: that's happening in secrecy, shame the Forest Service, and build 556 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: movement move mint buildings so that we're ready when people 557 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: need to throw down for real and in that might 558 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 1: happen soon. We weren't trying to hold the space for 559 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: weeks and weeks and weeks. Um, that wasn't the goal. 560 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:12,959 Speaker 1: So like going in being like what kind of an 561 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: action are we trying to do? What are we trying 562 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: to complish? Are we trying to be decisive? Are we 563 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: trying to like shape the conditions necessary for success and 564 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: like culture build or were trying like what are we 565 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: actually trying to do? And then like coming away with that. 566 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: Having having that, having a clear sense of that beforehand, 567 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: I think really really is crucial. Bec I've definitely observed 568 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: direct actions where that is not the case, that people 569 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: have not thought those things through, and it becomes the 570 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: kind of un fun version of chaos, um where you know, things, 571 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: things don't really get done and you're just kind of 572 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: sitting around and everyone's kind of slightly miserable because again 573 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: you're in a freezing forest of and no one really 574 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: knows what the hell they're doing. Um. So definitely having 575 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: those kind of things thought through beforehand is extremely useful 576 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: when you're deciding to trudge your way into some cold, 577 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: dark woods. Yeah, we're going for chaotic good, not chaotic evil. Yeah, 578 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: well a little bit of chaotic. Well, it depends, it 579 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: depends what it depends what we mean by evil evil 580 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: evil to some people, we we yeah anyway, Um, and 581 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: any other kind of historical notes on forest defense or 582 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: any other kind of random random tidbits like to mention 583 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: before before we close out. The one thing that I 584 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: feel like it's super important to say to people is 585 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: that forest defense is not just about protecting forests. It's 586 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: about protecting all of us. We know now like forest defenses, 587 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: climate defense. Our forests are our best natural tool for 588 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: fighting climate change. And also like we need them here. 589 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: Most of Oregonian get their drinking water from forests with watersheds, 590 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: like they literally are sustaining all of us. And so yeah, 591 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 1: we hope folks join, like not just for the sake 592 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: of like being you know, hippie tree huggers, even though 593 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: you know some of us are, but also because like 594 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: we need to survive as a people and as a planet, 595 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: and sorry, best way to do that it's it's the 596 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: cheapest most advanced form of carbon capture we have yet. 597 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: So yeah, it seems seems kind of asinine to chop 598 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: that all down to build some shitty sheds. Mm hmm. 599 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 1: All right, well that's a sude. It's it could happen here. 600 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,479 Speaker 1: The podcast that occasionally has ads from Washington State Highway Patrol. 601 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: On a completely unrelated note, Garrison, you want to talk 602 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: about the Washington State Highway Patrol today, I sure would 603 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: love to talk about our our good friends at the 604 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: Washington State Patrol um because yeah, they just uh they've've 605 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: they've come up on my radar. And in an unrelated matter, 606 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: and now we're gonna talking about So now we're talking 607 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: about them. Yeah. So this is the show about things 608 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: falling apart and kind of part of societal and political 609 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: stuff kind of crumbling. Usually that gets related to some 610 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 1: type of law enforcement agency more often than not. And uh, 611 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: in terms of like tensions rising in stuff, there's a 612 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: lot of you know, force gets force gets exerted via 613 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: law enforcement, and uh, one such law enforcement Yeah. Well, 614 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: and one such agency that does this is called the 615 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 1: Washington State Patrol. UM. So they were I I don't know, 616 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: I I just discovered them recently. UM. So they were 617 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: founded exactly one hundred years ago. UM. And they were 618 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: originally called the Washington State Highway Patrol. UM. Now they're 619 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,959 Speaker 1: just the Washington State Patrol. They removed highway, but they 620 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 1: still do the same thing. They're basically glorified traffic cops, 621 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: um who operate all around all around Washington State. UM. 622 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,959 Speaker 1: And we're gonna talk about some of the ways that 623 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: they've been making things worse within the past decade. UM. 624 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:13,879 Speaker 1: I'm since they have a one hundred year history, I'm 625 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 1: sure we can find lots of historical examples. UM. But 626 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: we're we're gonna we're gonna do stuff that's more that 627 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 1: is more recent, because this is you know, generally trying 628 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: to keep things around the current, the current crumbling. Um. 629 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 1: And because we're gonna talk about police, the first the 630 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: first thing we're gonna be discussing, oddly enough, is a 631 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: racism um because I know, um, when you think of 632 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: Washington State Patrol, that's you know, it's it's kind of 633 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: shocking that they might have a race issue. Um. So, Anyway, 634 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 1: twelve years ago, researchers working with working with Washington State 635 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: Patrol found that troopers were searching drivers from minority communities, 636 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:59,240 Speaker 1: particularly um local Native American tribes, at a much higher 637 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: rate than than white people. And they recommend an additional study, 638 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 1: which the Washington State Patrol declined to UH to investigate further. 639 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: They they're like, no, um, no, no more studies. So meanwhile, 640 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: since then, the troopers have continued to continue to search 641 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: Native Americans at a at a rate much higher, more 642 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: than five times than that of of of white people 643 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: in the area. Yeah, so, but there are five times 644 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: as the popular there. There's five times as many Indigenous 645 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 1: people in Washington as white people right there, there's not 646 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:41,279 Speaker 1: oh yeah, so An analysis by Investigate West showed that 647 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: the Patrol continued to do searches at a much elevated 648 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:49,720 Speaker 1: rates for for black people, Latino, Pacific Islanders, and natives 649 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: within Washington State. UM. And yet when when troopers did 650 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 1: decide to search white motorists, they were more likely to 651 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: find drugs in contraband. UM. Which is something to Washington 652 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 1: State Patrol actually acknowledges is that when when they search 653 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: people of minority communities, they are less likely to find 654 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: to find illegal things. Yeah, I mean that's yeah nationwide 655 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 1: and very very robust data. So UM, government records obtained 656 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 1: via like information requests and various other you know of 657 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 1: public records searches UM also show that there there there 658 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,240 Speaker 1: is a state law that Washington State Patrol is supposed 659 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: to collect and report semi annually to the Criminal Justice 660 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 1: Training Commission in Washington. UM about you know, race and 661 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: ethnicity data of motorists is stopped by troopers. But uh 662 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 1: so this is supposed supposed to happen semi annually, but 663 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 1: the agency report of those findings only three times in 664 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: the past fifteen years, which isn't sounds kind of like 665 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,239 Speaker 1: the Portland Police not doing the things that federally they're 666 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: supposed to do because they're so violent. Yeah, being out 667 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 1: of compliance with a bunch of federal three three times, 668 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,280 Speaker 1: three times in fifteen years is not semi annually. Based 669 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: on what I know, the term semi annually to semi decade. 670 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 1: So yeah, UM based on responses for over thirty public 671 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,879 Speaker 1: records requests UM from from three different agencies looking looking 672 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: at Washington State Patrol and more than like fifty interviews 673 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 1: with current and formal law enforcement officials and people with 674 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 1: experience interacting with Washington State Patrol UM and also data 675 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 1: from millions of traffic stops. All this was looked at 676 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,319 Speaker 1: in total, examined about eight million traffic stops from two 677 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: US and nine to US in fifteen. This is what 678 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: Investigate West was doing UM. Which was which was the 679 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 1: most recent data available, and the analysis found that UH 680 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: it focused on twenty incidents of what researchers called like 681 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: high discretion searches. That's when troopers had the most like 682 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 1: personal leeway to decide whether or not to pull over 683 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 1: and search a vehicle. UM. Black drivers were twice as 684 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,320 Speaker 1: likely to be searched as white drivers, and Latino specific 685 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 1: calenders were eight percent more likely to be searched of 686 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: of these incidents where officers had discretion and like they 687 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: could choose whether or not to pull someone over. Um, 688 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: so it wasn't like it wasn't like they were like 689 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:09,759 Speaker 1: obviously speeding or doing you know, like like you know, 690 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 1: like like regular like actually observable traffic violations. This is 691 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: when like people can choose when they investigate. West thing 692 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 1: got published, they contact Washington State Patrol and the spokesperson 693 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: said that, uh, here's here's here's the quote. The race. 694 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 1: Race was not the only factor when troopers decided whom 695 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,320 Speaker 1: to search, and that's partially because blacks, Native Americans and 696 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: Latinos are more like more more likely to be searched 697 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 1: regardless of how much discretion troopers have, which that doesn't 698 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 1: really make very much sense. Um, I don't know what 699 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:45,359 Speaker 1: the person, I don't know what they mean is they're 700 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 1: more likely to be searching regardless what the who was 701 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: that bad a checking the copy? Which is weird because 702 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 1: later on the spokesperson said that, um, in, same guy, 703 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 1: we're in the basically we're agrees that we're in a 704 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 1: basic agreement that minorities are searched at higher rates, but 705 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:13,840 Speaker 1: we find less contraband so um. And he also he 706 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: also noted that complaints about like a racial bias encounted 707 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 1: for little more than ten percent of all complaints of 708 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 1: the state patrol filed last year. So I guess he 709 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 1: thinks that's a good He thinks that's a good stat 710 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:35,359 Speaker 1: that yeah. Um. And another kind of not great thing 711 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,319 Speaker 1: is that the analysis found that not only are Native 712 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 1: Americans more likely to be searched, but all of the 713 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,960 Speaker 1: most of those searches happen always that like the edges 714 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 1: of reservations UM. The analysis found that the two highest 715 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 1: concentration of searches in Native Americans by state troopers are 716 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 1: on the US nineties seven, where it encounters um a 717 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 1: reservation at OLC about about a mile from its intersection 718 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 1: at a state road to one and more than one 719 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: thirty miles south of the same when the same highway 720 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:12,759 Speaker 1: enters another reservation. So nearly one third of high discretions 721 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 1: of high discretion searches. So when troopers can decide whether 722 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: or not to pull someone over like like they they 723 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,359 Speaker 1: they have more discretion whether they can. So one third 724 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 1: of those happened on these two stretches of highway right 725 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,800 Speaker 1: on the edges of these reservations, Like they're patrolling outside 726 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:32,280 Speaker 1: these reservations to specifically do this. Um there was I 727 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,239 Speaker 1: I saw an interview on this topic that we talked 728 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 1: that talked to to Native Americans in this area and 729 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:38,840 Speaker 1: they're like, yeah, every time we leave the reservation, we 730 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:40,919 Speaker 1: get pulled over. But then we watched tons of white 731 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 1: motorists go by and no one cares, like and like 732 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: and they're like you're doing like they're just speeding by, 733 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. Um So, yeah, that is. That is 734 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: the first first you know, unsurprising tidbit about uh, some 735 00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: an organization who started as a highway patrol is, yeah, 736 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: they're gonna pull people over who are not white more often. 737 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 1: That is that's pretty not not super shocking. Yeah, and 738 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:12,240 Speaker 1: then make a public statement like l o O yeah, 739 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,359 Speaker 1: yeah that that does. That does sound a lot like 740 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 1: with the Washington State Patrol. Uh sounds like, um so 741 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,480 Speaker 1: we're gonna So that that was that was the first 742 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 1: obvious thing. Uh. This next part is a little bit 743 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,239 Speaker 1: more fun. Um. So in in in two thousand nine, 744 00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,000 Speaker 1: the Washington State Patrol made made the decision to fire 745 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:37,239 Speaker 1: eight troopers, which is you know, pretty pretty rare um 746 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,839 Speaker 1: And the reason why they got fired is because they 747 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 1: used fake diplomas to claim pay raises. Yeah, so there 748 00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,120 Speaker 1: was there was this whole scheme about getting fake diplomas 749 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:53,239 Speaker 1: to get the troopers more money, like like like individual 750 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 1: people that there's this whole, this whole operation going on. 751 00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 1: It resulted in the in in eight in eight people 752 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,240 Speaker 1: getting fired. So troopers can can boost their pay about 753 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,960 Speaker 1: two percent by earning two a two year degree or 754 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 1: four percent with a four year degree. And there was 755 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: this group of of a troopers who just uh started 756 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:18,520 Speaker 1: just forging diplomas see Garrison. This is a separate conversation. 757 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:20,759 Speaker 1: But they didn't need to forge diplomas. They could have 758 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,920 Speaker 1: just become doctors of of of of of magic, like 759 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:30,439 Speaker 1: that's what I've tried to do religious PhD. Yeah, so 760 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 1: there's all sorts of fake diploma mills come on Washington 761 00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 1: State Highway Patrol. This this is pretty funny. So so 762 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,320 Speaker 1: the investigation began after federal agents shut down a diploma 763 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 1: mill in the Spokane. Criminal charges were not filed, but 764 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:54,400 Speaker 1: the patrol to decide to fire these eight troopers. Yeah, 765 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,799 Speaker 1: so that is one of the more funny things we'll 766 00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 1: be talking about today, and I think it's time for 767 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:03,000 Speaker 1: an ad break. So yeah, speaking of funny, here's these 768 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,000 Speaker 1: ads that may or may not be the people we're 769 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:11,399 Speaker 1: talking about. Rob No unrelated, unrelated. Uh We're back, which 770 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:15,600 Speaker 1: is also unrelated. Yeah. Another thing that's putting pretty common 771 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 1: around police is that the past few years, they generally 772 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,880 Speaker 1: don't think COVID is really real or I think that 773 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:29,920 Speaker 1: it is the past few years. Now that Robert, we're 774 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:33,600 Speaker 1: less than a month away from two. Yeah, I hate that. 775 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,680 Speaker 1: It's like, I mean, fun it's it's like, it's almost two. 776 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,680 Speaker 1: Almost ten percent of your entire life has been COVID. 777 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,120 Speaker 1: I'm not going to think about math um yea. So 778 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:46,359 Speaker 1: generally they don't think COVID is real. And also they 779 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,640 Speaker 1: think vaccines are the mark of Satan or something. Well 780 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 1: obviously they are, but yeah, so in in in mid 781 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,919 Speaker 1: October this this past October, Washingtons Tate Patrol announced that 782 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,880 Speaker 1: one twenty seven of its employee is at lost their 783 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:05,120 Speaker 1: job after the state's COVID nineteen vaccine mandate deadline of 784 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 1: October eighteenth. So unlike the Portland Police Bureau who WHO, 785 00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,160 Speaker 1: the port who port and many other cities where city 786 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,920 Speaker 1: officials caved to the demands of the police that vaccine 787 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,480 Speaker 1: mandates not be not be extended towards police. Uh, this 788 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,600 Speaker 1: did not happen in Washington, and they actually got it enforced. 789 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:27,680 Speaker 1: So over a hundred uh patrol employees quit quit their job, 790 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:32,200 Speaker 1: including a sixty four commissioned officers. It was like six 791 00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:37,840 Speaker 1: sixty seven troopers, six sergeants, and one captain. Um. Yeah, 792 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:42,040 Speaker 1: So you know, Washingtonate Patrol has about two thousand personnel 793 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 1: within like between like eight districts. UM. So losing like 794 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,880 Speaker 1: a hundred and twenty seven of them is not a 795 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:53,560 Speaker 1: is not an insignificant loss. Um And it's it's been 796 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,160 Speaker 1: a it's it has been been trying to hire a 797 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,759 Speaker 1: lot more people in the in the past. In the 798 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,239 Speaker 1: past like a few months speak. Because of this, they've 799 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,120 Speaker 1: been they've been trying to do a lot more recruitment, 800 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 1: which is why they're UM. I've heard from other people 801 00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,040 Speaker 1: that they are putting uh advertisements out on the internet 802 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 1: to become a Washington State trooper. That makes sense. This 803 00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:15,279 Speaker 1: is something I've I've heard from from people online. When 804 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,480 Speaker 1: I've been doing all of this uh deep deep, extensive 805 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 1: research so yeah, they are, they are, they are recruiting. 806 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:26,120 Speaker 1: Uh So, if you uh want to be uh Washington 807 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,919 Speaker 1: Patrol officer, don't don't. Actually that's a bad idea. Um, 808 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,400 Speaker 1: don't do that. Yeah. I means as you want to 809 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,120 Speaker 1: like really funk with people who live on a reservation. 810 00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,320 Speaker 1: If that's if that's your goal. It seems like Washington 811 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,000 Speaker 1: State Highway Patrol is your your dream career, or have 812 00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,200 Speaker 1: another option for you. You You could also just get COVID 813 00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,560 Speaker 1: and die. Well, yeah, that is an option. That's an 814 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:51,600 Speaker 1: option to thing I think might be freedom is what 815 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,600 Speaker 1: makes this nation great. Uh so I think you know 816 00:45:56,120 --> 00:46:00,440 Speaker 1: of the choice. Anyway, continue, I'm going to send a 817 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,799 Speaker 1: picture inside our group chat first because we're gonna we're 818 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:09,200 Speaker 1: talking about one one specific evil dude. Next, I'm setting 819 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:10,520 Speaker 1: a picture in the group chat that I want you 820 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:12,399 Speaker 1: to look at first, just so you get a sense 821 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,320 Speaker 1: of who we're talking about. Oh based, okay, I'm I'm excited. 822 00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:24,080 Speaker 1: Yeah alright? Oh no, oh no, the bow tie really 823 00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,800 Speaker 1: brings it all together. Oh no, you said bow tie, 824 00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:32,360 Speaker 1: which does not make me optimistic? And Robert, oh no, 825 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:37,680 Speaker 1: what is wrong with it? Who? Yeah? Who puts a 826 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,840 Speaker 1: bow tie on a uniform. Like, guys, I found a 827 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,680 Speaker 1: better quality image. Um, good god, there we go, same 828 00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:48,040 Speaker 1: image better he looks like Tucker Carlson and the Starship 829 00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:51,640 Speaker 1: Troopers universe when he gets drafted. So this is the 830 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,480 Speaker 1: next guy we're talking about. Um, somehow feels like I 831 00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:59,080 Speaker 1: hate crime towards the Weasley family. So yeah, it feels 832 00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:01,840 Speaker 1: like a hate crime towards the guy based off Tucker 833 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:05,919 Speaker 1: Carlson in Starship Troopers. So this would be a big 834 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:10,760 Speaker 1: fan of ron Ron Weasley's family. This this is This 835 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:14,799 Speaker 1: is Sean carr Um, a former Washington State Patrol a 836 00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:22,080 Speaker 1: sergeant um who resigned for reasons. We will discuss fun. 837 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:28,000 Speaker 1: That's exciting. Yeah yeah anyway. Um So in two US 838 00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,040 Speaker 1: and fifteen and associated press investigation uncovered about a thousand 839 00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,879 Speaker 1: officers in the United States who lost their badges over 840 00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:37,080 Speaker 1: a six year period for sex crimes or misconduct such 841 00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:39,080 Speaker 1: as like, uh, this is this is a quote here, 842 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,600 Speaker 1: which I disagree with framing here, But this is this 843 00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:46,839 Speaker 1: is a quote propositioning citizens or having consensual but prohibited 844 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:52,160 Speaker 1: on duty intercourse, which is, uh, a pretty bullshit way 845 00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,920 Speaker 1: to frame that because basically you're it's it's police raping people. 846 00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,680 Speaker 1: Um and police officers being accused of like using their 847 00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:03,680 Speaker 1: power over people to rape them is extremely common. Yeah, 848 00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:05,960 Speaker 1: and it's often just like yeah, well the person said okay, 849 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:07,880 Speaker 1: And it's like, well they said okay to a person 850 00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,920 Speaker 1: with a gun in the legal power to murder anyone 851 00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,600 Speaker 1: they want or put them in jail. Like, like there's 852 00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:15,960 Speaker 1: a lot of Yeah, you know, I would argue, you 853 00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:20,240 Speaker 1: can't consent uh to sex with a police officer who's 854 00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,440 Speaker 1: on duty in an uniform because it's they have the 855 00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:26,000 Speaker 1: power to murder anybody they want or or who just 856 00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,200 Speaker 1: arrest you. Like, like, it's a lot of stuff. So, 857 00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:30,479 Speaker 1: like there's a studied at least a few years ago 858 00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:33,719 Speaker 1: that an analyzed data of like a five hundred and 859 00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,480 Speaker 1: fifty arrest cases from the years of two US and 860 00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:39,520 Speaker 1: five to two US and seven just two years and 861 00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:43,279 Speaker 1: uh a four hundred officers employed by like three D 862 00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:48,200 Speaker 1: twenty non non federal law enforcement agencies located throughout a 863 00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:51,960 Speaker 1: forty three states. Um and findings indicated that a police 864 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:56,160 Speaker 1: sexual misconduct includes a serious forms of sex related crimes, 865 00:48:56,480 --> 00:49:00,000 Speaker 1: and the victims of sex related crimes by police are 866 00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:04,160 Speaker 1: typically younger than eighteen years old. Um So it's it 867 00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,360 Speaker 1: happens a lot with miners. So there's a lot like 868 00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:10,839 Speaker 1: like more like a ridiculously common like if you if 869 00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,360 Speaker 1: you google is, which I honestly don't recommend, but you 870 00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:17,280 Speaker 1: can find like dozens of stories coming out like basically 871 00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,840 Speaker 1: every like not you'll find at least one new story 872 00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,640 Speaker 1: every month of a kid getting raped by police. It 873 00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:28,440 Speaker 1: happens pretty commonly. So over the past ten years in 874 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:32,400 Speaker 1: the Washington State Patrol, they've investigated and confirmed four cases 875 00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,279 Speaker 1: of what they call sex on duty UM, according to 876 00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:41,160 Speaker 1: the agency, and this is including including Shan Karr now 877 00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:46,040 Speaker 1: Sean Car's cases particularly sensitive for the agency because he 878 00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:50,040 Speaker 1: was married to the uh the daughter of the Washington 879 00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:54,040 Speaker 1: State Patrol Chief UM and and Shaun Carr was also 880 00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:57,680 Speaker 1: himself a sergeant, so he was connected to like the 881 00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:01,640 Speaker 1: big leagues at the Washington State Patrol. So Carr met 882 00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,760 Speaker 1: a civilian woman who also works at Washington State Patrol 883 00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:06,600 Speaker 1: but as like you know, like has like an office job, 884 00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,759 Speaker 1: so they isn't isn't a trooper um. They met in 885 00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:13,120 Speaker 1: twelve and struck up an online friendship, and a few 886 00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:15,560 Speaker 1: months later they both of them told investigators that the 887 00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:20,800 Speaker 1: relationship did turn sexual. Um Car admitted to six sexual 888 00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:22,919 Speaker 1: encounters for the next like five years with the woman, 889 00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:24,840 Speaker 1: of five of which happened when he was on duty 890 00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:27,800 Speaker 1: and like on state property or driving a vehicle or 891 00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,600 Speaker 1: while in uniform. UM. But the woman recalled as many 892 00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:32,759 Speaker 1: as as twenty and all but one of them were 893 00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:35,640 Speaker 1: when he was on duty and well. And so the 894 00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:38,160 Speaker 1: woman said that most of their encounters were were what 895 00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:41,960 Speaker 1: she would describe as consensual, but she described three incidents 896 00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:47,120 Speaker 1: where Carr did uh pushed the boundary, and she she 897 00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:52,200 Speaker 1: she has described being raped by him multiple times. UM, 898 00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:54,640 Speaker 1: so there was there was an incident. I think the 899 00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:59,719 Speaker 1: first one happened in the beginning of UH with inside 900 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:03,279 Speaker 1: his patrol car in a church parking lot. UH. The 901 00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,400 Speaker 1: woman had recently started dating another man, and Carr wanted 902 00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:08,879 Speaker 1: to know who it was. When she wouldn't say so, 903 00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:13,239 Speaker 1: he UH he grabbed her arm hard enough to leave bruises, 904 00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:15,279 Speaker 1: and the woman said that Car made her pick from 905 00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,799 Speaker 1: two options, give up the name of the man or 906 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:23,840 Speaker 1: give car oral sex. Um Car later told investigators that 907 00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:27,280 Speaker 1: he said this in a quote joking context. Oh that's 908 00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,280 Speaker 1: you know, I was thinking, because that's almost exactly my 909 00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:34,680 Speaker 1: my tight five for my stand up set. I mean 910 00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,000 Speaker 1: some some comedians for some reason do like making jokes 911 00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,000 Speaker 1: like that and not not not great usually not great 912 00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:44,000 Speaker 1: to normalize that kind of thing. So um. The woman 913 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,520 Speaker 1: said that she did like like sea his his like 914 00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:50,839 Speaker 1: commands and she's which she said, we're like very much 915 00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:54,719 Speaker 1: not done. Yeah, and she said it's very much not consensual. Um. 916 00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,160 Speaker 1: She she told investigators that he raped me on the 917 00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:59,600 Speaker 1: side of the road. Um and if and if it 918 00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,279 Speaker 1: was any and else besides car, she she she she 919 00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,719 Speaker 1: said she would have called nine one one. Um. So 920 00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:09,520 Speaker 1: the second time happened when a car backed her into 921 00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:12,120 Speaker 1: a corner of a highway away station and forced her 922 00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:14,880 Speaker 1: to have sex with him. Um. She called it a 923 00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:19,920 Speaker 1: coerced Car said that consent was mutual. So despite the 924 00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:23,239 Speaker 1: sexual assaults, uh and and and like and you know 925 00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:25,440 Speaker 1: and and like assaults you know, like you know, grapping 926 00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,440 Speaker 1: someone's arm hard to leave a bruise, she said. The 927 00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:30,480 Speaker 1: woman said she kept in touch with Car because she 928 00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:32,440 Speaker 1: was going through a difficult time in her life and 929 00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:37,160 Speaker 1: she needed somebody to talk to. Complicated. That's yeah, that 930 00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:39,800 Speaker 1: this is even as not like people who are imbutive 931 00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:43,080 Speaker 1: can also be emotionally supportive sometimes like that's one of 932 00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:45,960 Speaker 1: the things about abuse, that said, a real, real motherfucker. 933 00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:49,080 Speaker 1: It's not simple. So yeah, Car, Car may not have 934 00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:51,840 Speaker 1: gotten in trouble had the woman not confided in another 935 00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:55,480 Speaker 1: patrol employee after she left her job. UM. Then the 936 00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:59,440 Speaker 1: other other patrol employee mentioned the situation to someone higher up, 937 00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:03,320 Speaker 1: triggering in investigation UM. And then in nineteen the woman 938 00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:06,960 Speaker 1: formally reported Car to uh TO to like the Patrol 939 00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:10,560 Speaker 1: Office of Professional Standards. SO records story that the patrol 940 00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,600 Speaker 1: of pretty quickly confiscated cars, badge, and gun and placed 941 00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:16,600 Speaker 1: him on home assignment, where he remained until he and 942 00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:21,479 Speaker 1: he resigned voluntarily. UM. The patrol gave gave the case 943 00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:24,160 Speaker 1: to the Sheriff's office to investigate because of the criminal 944 00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:29,000 Speaker 1: nature of the allegations. SO. Car's personal file includes other 945 00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:32,280 Speaker 1: on job violations, including using a taser on a drunk 946 00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:37,040 Speaker 1: driving suspect. He was handcuffed, and records show that in February, 947 00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:41,799 Speaker 1: Car was accused of a frequenting a coffee stand and 948 00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:45,279 Speaker 1: making unwanted advances on an employee by waiting near her 949 00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:48,879 Speaker 1: car until her shift ended, and making derogatory comments about 950 00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:54,040 Speaker 1: her boyfriend. Um, so he was also stalking this barista, 951 00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:58,640 Speaker 1: is what it sounds like. Um? Yeah, yeah, that's that 952 00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:03,640 Speaker 1: is what that sounds like. Pretty terrifying. So yeah, so 953 00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:08,399 Speaker 1: car after the woman told investigators that she was raped. 954 00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:14,320 Speaker 1: After UM, the the county sheriffs recommended hard to be filed. 955 00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:18,440 Speaker 1: But she wasn't willing to. Um. She wasn't willing to testify. 956 00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:19,840 Speaker 1: She did not want to. She did not want to 957 00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:23,040 Speaker 1: do that. Um. But but she she didn't tell prosecutors 958 00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:26,120 Speaker 1: that she didn't have one wish that that car again, 959 00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:28,840 Speaker 1: the son in law of the state patrol chief be 960 00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:32,680 Speaker 1: be not not allowed to police again. UM. Yeah, that's 961 00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:36,640 Speaker 1: a pretty reasonable request. Car of obviously denied all the 962 00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:41,239 Speaker 1: accusations of non consensual sex and assault. But you know, 963 00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:45,680 Speaker 1: I did admit to a to a consensual sexual relationship 964 00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,480 Speaker 1: on duty um, as well as other you know, like 965 00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:56,480 Speaker 1: patrol regulation violations. Um. He he resigned in July before 966 00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:59,760 Speaker 1: the patrol could decide whether or not to fire him. Um. 967 00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,000 Speaker 1: And then the state went about trying to strip him 968 00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:04,799 Speaker 1: of his law enforcement cert of occasion requirement to carry 969 00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:07,480 Speaker 1: a gun and badge and be hired as law enforcement 970 00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:12,080 Speaker 1: in Washington, getting de certified for misconduct by the Criminal 971 00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:16,319 Speaker 1: Justice Training Center in Washington is very hard. Very few 972 00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:22,200 Speaker 1: people have actually been decertified. Yeah, and to to be certified, 973 00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:24,400 Speaker 1: the panel must be a panel must be convinced that 974 00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:29,440 Speaker 1: on duty behavior rose to the level of official misconduct 975 00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:33,719 Speaker 1: and constituted a crime committed under the color of authority 976 00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:37,000 Speaker 1: as a peace officer. That's the that's the color of 977 00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:42,600 Speaker 1: authorities an interesting way to phrase that. Cars attorneys argued 978 00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:44,640 Speaker 1: that the state failed to make to meet this high 979 00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:47,520 Speaker 1: bar and there was quote no legal basis to de 980 00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:51,920 Speaker 1: certify car. Meanwhile, the c j a t C, the 981 00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:55,560 Speaker 1: Criminal Justice Training Center alleged his behavior did constitute official 982 00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:59,799 Speaker 1: misconduct and failure of duty, but without actually they didn't 983 00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:04,000 Speaker 1: act actually include the sexual assault allegations. Instead, it contended 984 00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:07,400 Speaker 1: that he used state resources for his own benefit or 985 00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,719 Speaker 1: neglected to do his duties when he was engaged in 986 00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:14,640 Speaker 1: sexual activity on duty. So they didn't actually include sexual 987 00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:17,839 Speaker 1: assault or anything in this. They just said you were 988 00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:22,120 Speaker 1: basically like you were because you were doing because you 989 00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:25,160 Speaker 1: were having like sexual activity on duty, you weren't doing 990 00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:27,280 Speaker 1: your job, and that's the reason that we want to 991 00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:30,919 Speaker 1: decertify you. Um. So the date of Washington has about 992 00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:34,200 Speaker 1: eleven thousand certified officers at any given time UM, and 993 00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,800 Speaker 1: since to us in three they've decertified like two hundred 994 00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:40,480 Speaker 1: and thirty and at least four of them for on 995 00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,840 Speaker 1: duty sex and one of those cases was overturned on 996 00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:48,480 Speaker 1: appeal UM. But in one around mid May, the c 997 00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:52,360 Speaker 1: j TC in its final order said that Cars constituted 998 00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:57,359 Speaker 1: UH crimes of of failure of duty and official misconduct by, 999 00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:00,879 Speaker 1: among other things, quote, intentionally choosing to to his own 1000 00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:03,799 Speaker 1: sexual gratification rather than using his on duty time to 1001 00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:07,879 Speaker 1: perform his lawful responsibilities as a peace officer. So he 1002 00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:11,080 Speaker 1: he did get de certified, but again not actually discussing 1003 00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:17,200 Speaker 1: the actual like assaults and rapes. Um. Yeah. So the 1004 00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:22,400 Speaker 1: the the Sheriff County Prosecutor's office designed declined to pursue 1005 00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:24,920 Speaker 1: charges on the case last year when the woman was 1006 00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:29,720 Speaker 1: unwilling to testify, but the the deputy prosecuting attorney UM 1007 00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,440 Speaker 1: did say that she she believed they just happened, like 1008 00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:35,800 Speaker 1: like she she believes this that the stuff happened. But 1009 00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:38,600 Speaker 1: because of the lack of evidence due to time passing 1010 00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:41,600 Speaker 1: and the woman not wanting to testify, there it's hard 1011 00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:44,160 Speaker 1: to prove guilt in court, So they're not going to 1012 00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:49,680 Speaker 1: pursue these charges at the moment. Yeah, So that that 1013 00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:52,280 Speaker 1: is UH, that is Shawn Karr. So that yeah, he 1014 00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:57,440 Speaker 1: is not not not allowed to police as of That 1015 00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:01,160 Speaker 1: is a cursory glance at off in the Washington State Patrol. Oh, 1016 00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:03,000 Speaker 1: I guess one of one other thing I found out 1017 00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:07,840 Speaker 1: today is that so Washington State Patrol has a has 1018 00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:12,120 Speaker 1: a psychologist for recruitings basically for if you want to 1019 00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:14,560 Speaker 1: join the patrol, you have to go like through like 1020 00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:20,080 Speaker 1: a psychological screening. Sure, that makes sense. And he just 1021 00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:22,600 Speaker 1: just resigned because he was he was he was probably 1022 00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:26,680 Speaker 1: going to get fired. Um. This was after Seattle Times 1023 00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:30,840 Speaker 1: and Public Radio Northwest News Network UH published a piece 1024 00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:38,640 Speaker 1: show showing that since UH the psychological screenings rejected where 1025 00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:42,840 Speaker 1: is it? UH rejected of white candidates over the past 1026 00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:47,919 Speaker 1: four years. Um, but the psychologists that they hired, UH 1027 00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:53,000 Speaker 1: rejected of black candidates, of Hispanic candidates, and forty one 1028 00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:56,000 Speaker 1: percent of Asian candidates. So again, I'm not pro people 1029 00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:59,960 Speaker 1: being police in general, but there is a clear disparity 1030 00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:03,600 Speaker 1: on who they are wanting to become police, like who 1031 00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:05,880 Speaker 1: like who are they they're letting in a lot more 1032 00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:09,560 Speaker 1: white candidates than they are letting in candidates of color. 1033 00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:14,680 Speaker 1: Uh so this this uh, this psychologist screener is is 1034 00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:16,560 Speaker 1: no longer on the job as of like a few 1035 00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:22,680 Speaker 1: days ago. Um. Yeah, so just another another level of 1036 00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:25,440 Speaker 1: stuff because yeah, you know, there's they want there to 1037 00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:30,160 Speaker 1: be more white officers than anything else. Um so yeah, 1038 00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:32,760 Speaker 1: that is that is the Washington State Patrol. I guess 1039 00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:34,240 Speaker 1: the one other thing I want to do is I'm 1040 00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:38,280 Speaker 1: gonna again send in the group chat. Their their current logo, 1041 00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:45,000 Speaker 1: their current logo current You're I hate it when you 1042 00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:48,320 Speaker 1: do this. I'm afraid. I don't know, Sophie. Maybe it'll 1043 00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:51,520 Speaker 1: be fine. I mean, it's actually it's it's it's kind 1044 00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:56,000 Speaker 1: of fun. That's their logo. That is their current logo. 1045 00:59:57,160 --> 01:00:03,400 Speaker 1: They design it in like paint. Yes, they probably. They 1046 01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:07,080 Speaker 1: probably did design it an m S paint. Oh man, Yeah, 1047 01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:10,160 Speaker 1: that that looks like it belongs in an angel Fire website. 1048 01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:13,200 Speaker 1: Gar So do you know what angel Fire was? Oh 1049 01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:17,360 Speaker 1: my god, you fucking teenagers. Um yeah, that looks like 1050 01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:20,120 Speaker 1: it belongs in an angel I will I will let 1051 01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:22,560 Speaker 1: all of the other people who feel very old right 1052 01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:24,640 Speaker 1: now know that it looks like something you'd see in 1053 01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:29,280 Speaker 1: an angel Fire website, like shittlely animated blinking across the screen. Yeah, 1054 01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:31,959 Speaker 1: you know, like it looks like something from a ninet 1055 01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:36,040 Speaker 1: nineties website. All right, well now I'm both angry about 1056 01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:38,240 Speaker 1: the police and I feel a thousand years old. So 1057 01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:41,600 Speaker 1: this is good? What a good? What a good? What 1058 01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:45,040 Speaker 1: a good feeling? Well that that wraps that. That wraps 1059 01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:49,080 Speaker 1: it up for today. Um and hey again I have 1060 01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:50,960 Speaker 1: heard that they are recruiting and they should have a 1061 01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:55,680 Speaker 1: new psychological screener soon. So great, there we go. I'm 1062 01:00:55,720 --> 01:01:00,960 Speaker 1: imagining the primary psychological screening is you're white, right, that's 1063 01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:03,480 Speaker 1: that's that is what it used to be. I mean, 1064 01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:06,320 Speaker 1: I'm imagining that's what it's going to be still, but 1065 01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:10,760 Speaker 1: probably Garrison maybe not. All right, well this has been 1066 01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:16,000 Speaker 1: a great time. I'm sure everybody's feeling good. Uh goodbye, 1067 01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:32,560 Speaker 1: get out of my house. Welcome to the hug Cast. 1068 01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:36,480 Speaker 1: This is a crypto podcast where we talk about the 1069 01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:40,000 Speaker 1: best n f T investments and how you can get 1070 01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:42,840 Speaker 1: rich to bro if you just accept the wave of 1071 01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:47,360 Speaker 1: the future and decentralize your finance and invest in a 1072 01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:50,960 Speaker 1: bank that can take all of your money overnight. And 1073 01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:53,520 Speaker 1: disappeared because it was really just being run by a 1074 01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:57,040 Speaker 1: guy in Macedonia and he it was just a rug 1075 01:01:57,080 --> 01:01:59,640 Speaker 1: pole the entire time. And you lose your life savings 1076 01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:02,880 Speaker 1: and you have no recourse. And that's the fucking future 1077 01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:07,400 Speaker 1: of investments. Bro. Hey, bro, you're fired. Yeah, that's fair. 1078 01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:12,360 Speaker 1: This is it could happen here podcast about how things 1079 01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:15,320 Speaker 1: are bad, sometimes a podcast about how to make them 1080 01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:18,439 Speaker 1: less bad. Today we're talking about the former how things 1081 01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:23,000 Speaker 1: are bad, and we're talking about financialization, um, and specifically 1082 01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,920 Speaker 1: the financialization of like human beings and the endeavor to 1083 01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:31,040 Speaker 1: create art. Uh and so well, art art is a 1084 01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:35,000 Speaker 1: broad broad term. I mean, I said the endeavor to 1085 01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:38,320 Speaker 1: I'm sure they all want to be creating art. Well, 1086 01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:40,080 Speaker 1: this won't make any sense to people yet, so I'm 1087 01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:42,280 Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna give a brief overview. There's an article 1088 01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:44,640 Speaker 1: in the Atlantic that dropped down November twenty nine called 1089 01:02:44,680 --> 01:02:49,520 Speaker 1: what Happens when You're the Investment. It's by Rex Wouldbury, um, 1090 01:02:49,600 --> 01:02:55,160 Speaker 1: who I hate. UM. So as a note, okay, let 1091 01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:57,920 Speaker 1: let me just get the the the nut of the 1092 01:02:58,040 --> 01:02:59,960 Speaker 1: article is, and that there's been a couple of other 1093 01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:04,479 Speaker 1: articles on this guy. Um. His name is Alex mass 1094 01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:08,640 Speaker 1: mesh Um and he is a French kid I think, 1095 01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:12,400 Speaker 1: who decided to token ize himself. And what that means 1096 01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:16,480 Speaker 1: is so like, you've got the ethereum blockchain, right, he 1097 01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:21,720 Speaker 1: basically he's he's putting he's carving up aspects of his 1098 01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:25,440 Speaker 1: like potential future earnings, and he's putting those on the 1099 01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:29,480 Speaker 1: Ethereum blockchain as like tokens that people can buy. And 1100 01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:32,240 Speaker 1: the idea is that this kid had wanted to like 1101 01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:34,360 Speaker 1: start a business and be an entrepreneur, but he didn't 1102 01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:37,720 Speaker 1: have any money. So using like on the ether blockchain, 1103 01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:41,880 Speaker 1: he turned himself into tokens basically like his potential future 1104 01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:45,440 Speaker 1: earnings and his time. And basically people are able to 1105 01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:50,200 Speaker 1: buy up coins effectively, I mean not coins, but tokens shares. 1106 01:03:50,640 --> 01:03:53,160 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, dollar sign Alex is like the name of 1107 01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:56,240 Speaker 1: the token, which basically shares they're buying. He's turned himself 1108 01:03:56,320 --> 01:04:00,680 Speaker 1: essentially into a publicly traded company kind of um. And 1109 01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:04,400 Speaker 1: holders of his coins are like, he's splitting up fifteen 1110 01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:07,440 Speaker 1: percent of his income for the next three years basically 1111 01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:11,040 Speaker 1: among people who like hold his coins. And he raised 1112 01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:13,960 Speaker 1: like twenty grand this way um. And it's not just 1113 01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:16,320 Speaker 1: like it's not just his future earnings that are being 1114 01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:18,760 Speaker 1: kind of tokenized. You can also use tokens to like 1115 01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:22,160 Speaker 1: buy retweets from him, or one on one conversations or 1116 01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:25,120 Speaker 1: and here's a line I love and introduction to someone 1117 01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:29,040 Speaker 1: in his network. And and it's the overall idea. Because 1118 01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:31,280 Speaker 1: there's you can find some other good articles. Good as 1119 01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:34,880 Speaker 1: an interesting word to use. You can find other interesting, 1120 01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:38,920 Speaker 1: fascinating articles about this, this idea, which is like human 1121 01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:44,640 Speaker 1: beings token izing their future earning potential um in order 1122 01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:50,040 Speaker 1: to uh raise money um and and it's uh the 1123 01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:52,400 Speaker 1: way this is usually sold as a good thing. In fact, 1124 01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:54,480 Speaker 1: I should probably just read a quote from this Atlantic 1125 01:04:54,560 --> 01:04:57,240 Speaker 1: article to give you an idea of how uh mass 1126 01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:00,680 Speaker 1: measure is or of how um um the the author 1127 01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:04,440 Speaker 1: of the article, Rex good would Bury is is trying 1128 01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:08,160 Speaker 1: to sell this ship. We all have the slightly annoying 1129 01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:10,360 Speaker 1: friend who insists that she knew about so and so 1130 01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:12,840 Speaker 1: before they were even famous. When it comes to Taylor Swift, 1131 01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:15,320 Speaker 1: I'm that friend, and I'm more than slightly annoying about it. 1132 01:05:15,360 --> 01:05:17,400 Speaker 1: I was a Taylor fan in her pre fearless full 1133 01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:20,480 Speaker 1: on Country days, years before Conway interrupted her on stage 1134 01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:23,160 Speaker 1: at the v m as, But in our current constructive fandom, 1135 01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:25,960 Speaker 1: I'm treated no differently than a fan who discovered Swift 1136 01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:28,840 Speaker 1: on SNL a few weeks back. This would be different, though, 1137 01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:31,000 Speaker 1: if Taylor had done what mass Measure did and turned 1138 01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:33,960 Speaker 1: herself into an investment, she could have issued a social token. 1139 01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:36,880 Speaker 1: Whereas non fungible tokens or n f t s are 1140 01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:39,080 Speaker 1: so called because of the uniqueness of a digital asset, 1141 01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:42,480 Speaker 1: social tokens are fungible. In other words, each Alex token 1142 01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:44,840 Speaker 1: is interchangeable with every other Alex token, just like a 1143 01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:47,000 Speaker 1: dollar bill can be traded for any other dollar bill. 1144 01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:50,160 Speaker 1: Say Taylor issued had issued her own token, Let's call 1145 01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:53,000 Speaker 1: it a dollar signs swift, and say she had sold 1146 01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:56,400 Speaker 1: dollar signed Swift to her biggest fans. Yeah, say I 1147 01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:59,400 Speaker 1: was one such fan. Over time, as Taylor's popularity grew, 1148 01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:02,560 Speaker 1: the value of the Swift token would have appreciated. As 1149 01:06:02,600 --> 01:06:04,760 Speaker 1: an early believer, I would have shared in the financial 1150 01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:07,160 Speaker 1: upside of her growing fame. The Swift token I had 1151 01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:09,080 Speaker 1: brought for a hundred dollars in two thousand seven might 1152 01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:12,200 Speaker 1: be worth a hundred thousand dollars today. The Taylor Swift 1153 01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:14,840 Speaker 1: mini economy would serve both the singer and early fans 1154 01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:16,880 Speaker 1: like me. As an artist, Taylor could have funded her 1155 01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:20,000 Speaker 1: work by selling dollar signs or swift tokens. She might 1156 01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:21,920 Speaker 1: not have needed to sell ownership of her master's and 1157 01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:23,920 Speaker 1: she might not have been forced to re record her 1158 01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:26,800 Speaker 1: albums to take back control over her art. Taylor's fans, 1159 01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:28,440 Speaker 1: for their part, would have been rewarded for a decade 1160 01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:31,520 Speaker 1: of patronage. Were all evangelists for our favorite artists, Yet 1161 01:06:31,520 --> 01:06:33,840 Speaker 1: we capture little of the value that we helped create. 1162 01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:38,439 Speaker 1: And then there's a lot that, like I find unsettling there. 1163 01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:41,320 Speaker 1: One of them is the idea that like, yeah, the 1164 01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:43,120 Speaker 1: fact that I was a fan of someone earlier means 1165 01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:45,040 Speaker 1: I should get some sort of reward for it, Like 1166 01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:47,560 Speaker 1: I should be treated differently because I liked it earlier, 1167 01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:50,360 Speaker 1: which you might recognize like the thing that everybody has 1168 01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:53,600 Speaker 1: been shipping on for like fandoms for years now, Like 1169 01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:55,880 Speaker 1: it's been a it's been a huge thing where like, yeah, 1170 01:06:55,920 --> 01:06:57,760 Speaker 1: you're being an asshole if you're if you're talking about 1171 01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:00,240 Speaker 1: like if you think you have some additional ownership of 1172 01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:02,840 Speaker 1: Star Wars because you watched it ten years before the 1173 01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:04,920 Speaker 1: fans today, and so you like different stuff in it, 1174 01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:08,520 Speaker 1: Like that's we all recognize that is like toxic um. 1175 01:07:08,600 --> 01:07:11,400 Speaker 1: But the the whole argument of this article is that like, no, 1176 01:07:11,560 --> 01:07:14,640 Speaker 1: this is how the entire future of creativity should work. 1177 01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:18,439 Speaker 1: We find unsettling. And it also it also ties into 1178 01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:23,840 Speaker 1: like a really concerning development in paras social relationships of 1179 01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:28,240 Speaker 1: like able to invest in someone to buy a conversation 1180 01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:32,240 Speaker 1: with them in like this really weird way. Um And 1181 01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:34,400 Speaker 1: the fact that young artists are going to be pressured 1182 01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:37,919 Speaker 1: into this kind of thing is really scary. Yeah, because 1183 01:07:37,920 --> 01:07:40,360 Speaker 1: there's like one of the things mass Measure did as 1184 01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:44,200 Speaker 1: like um uh as an experiment, was like allow people 1185 01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:47,520 Speaker 1: who had bought his tokens to make life decisions for him, 1186 01:07:47,640 --> 01:07:49,520 Speaker 1: like tell him when to wake up in the morning 1187 01:07:49,560 --> 01:07:51,560 Speaker 1: and whether or not to eat red meat and stuff 1188 01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:54,600 Speaker 1: like that. And he stated that like, well, none of 1189 01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:57,320 Speaker 1: this is binding, right, Like I'll I might do what 1190 01:07:57,360 --> 01:07:59,000 Speaker 1: they say, but like I'm not going to do anything 1191 01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:02,040 Speaker 1: crazy or whatever. But also this is like the first 1192 01:08:02,080 --> 01:08:07,240 Speaker 1: iteration of this um. And I like this Atlantic article, 1193 01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:09,600 Speaker 1: which I think is unhinged for reasons we'll get into, 1194 01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:12,960 Speaker 1: but it's purely talking about like look at this incredibly 1195 01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:15,400 Speaker 1: successful person I imagine if they've gotten to be incredibly 1196 01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:18,400 Speaker 1: successful using this method instead, and it might have like 1197 01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:21,160 Speaker 1: spared them this thing. But what I keep thinking about 1198 01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:24,880 Speaker 1: is like, Okay, well, the vast majority of people, like 1199 01:08:25,400 --> 01:08:28,360 Speaker 1: there's no reason to invest in them, Like yeah, maybe 1200 01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:30,320 Speaker 1: if you come out with a great song or a 1201 01:08:30,360 --> 01:08:32,599 Speaker 1: great video, like, yeah, you could get investments, and I'm 1202 01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:34,759 Speaker 1: sure that could work out. I'm sure, like Taylor Swift 1203 01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:36,760 Speaker 1: is a successful enough person, I'm sure she could have 1204 01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:39,519 Speaker 1: found a way to succeed under that system too. But 1205 01:08:40,280 --> 01:08:42,599 Speaker 1: what I think will be much more common because there's 1206 01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:45,639 Speaker 1: no real reason to anticipate that the average person will 1207 01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:48,439 Speaker 1: have an earnings potential. If you give them twenty grand, 1208 01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:53,760 Speaker 1: that's greater than twenty grand. Um. The most likely thing 1209 01:08:53,800 --> 01:08:55,679 Speaker 1: is that like people just buy shares and poor people 1210 01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:57,679 Speaker 1: to make them do fucked up ship. Yeah, it's gonna 1211 01:08:57,720 --> 01:08:59,360 Speaker 1: be How would you not how would that not be 1212 01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:01,599 Speaker 1: where it goes? Yeah, that's that. That's the only way 1213 01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:03,800 Speaker 1: that this is going to get like used on a 1214 01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:11,120 Speaker 1: large scale. People just selling themselves. People are people are 1215 01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:17,000 Speaker 1: gonna use the ether blockchain to like crowdfund and crowd 1216 01:09:17,920 --> 01:09:21,920 Speaker 1: h cast a new jackass basically like it's going it's 1217 01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:24,160 Speaker 1: not going to be like a thousand Taylor Swift's all 1218 01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:26,960 Speaker 1: token izing themselves. It's going to be like millions of 1219 01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:29,920 Speaker 1: people in the global self issuing tokens to like vote 1220 01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:32,280 Speaker 1: on whether they roll down the hill in a barrel 1221 01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:37,559 Speaker 1: or in like a fucking porta potti. Like it's just 1222 01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:41,120 Speaker 1: it's a nightmare to be to contemplate people actually adopting this. 1223 01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:44,400 Speaker 1: You know, there's there's a lot of Really the thing 1224 01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:46,120 Speaker 1: I think is the most incredible part about this is 1225 01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:52,719 Speaker 1: that like, okay, so like it basically doesn't matter what 1226 01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:56,599 Speaker 1: like economic theory you used to look at it. It's 1227 01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:59,000 Speaker 1: like every single one of them tells you something, just 1228 01:09:59,080 --> 01:10:02,439 Speaker 1: like absolutely talked about it, and like, you know, because 1229 01:10:02,479 --> 01:10:04,599 Speaker 1: because I mean, there there there's there's there's some extent 1230 01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:07,120 Speaker 1: to which I look at this and it's like, this 1231 01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:10,439 Speaker 1: isn't that much different than the fact, you know, it's like, okay, 1232 01:10:10,439 --> 01:10:12,479 Speaker 1: so you're paying someone to do whatever you want, but like, okay, 1233 01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:16,720 Speaker 1: like that's not that much different than just a job, right, 1234 01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:20,120 Speaker 1: Like it's it's not it's not inherently that much different 1235 01:10:20,120 --> 01:10:22,240 Speaker 1: than the fact that everyone is forced to just do 1236 01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:29,840 Speaker 1: wage labor. But also like there's one was interesting things 1237 01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:31,120 Speaker 1: to me that I thought about this when I was 1238 01:10:31,400 --> 01:10:34,760 Speaker 1: what I was reading this was so, do you just 1239 01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:39,160 Speaker 1: know what capitalization is? Yeah? So this is this is 1240 01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:43,960 Speaker 1: just capitalizing a person, right, Like it's literally taking a 1241 01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:48,240 Speaker 1: person public effect putting turning them into like a tradeable 1242 01:10:48,400 --> 01:10:50,800 Speaker 1: share and it's like an investment. Yeah, I mean, this 1243 01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:52,559 Speaker 1: is all one of the things that like a Forbes 1244 01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:55,120 Speaker 1: article I found point is that this is another kind 1245 01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:58,760 Speaker 1: of unregulated securities training. Yeah yeah, yeah. But what's what's 1246 01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:00,599 Speaker 1: interesting to me about it is that like, okay, so 1247 01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:04,559 Speaker 1: you know this is also already how accounting wise, every 1248 01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:06,800 Speaker 1: corporation sees a person, right like every every every every 1249 01:11:06,840 --> 01:11:10,040 Speaker 1: person in the asset book is you know, yeah, you know, 1250 01:11:10,160 --> 01:11:12,280 Speaker 1: like a wage is just capitalization, right, It's like how 1251 01:11:12,320 --> 01:11:14,280 Speaker 1: much will you pay now for this much money later? 1252 01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:16,320 Speaker 1: You could, but it's like people are doing it to 1253 01:11:16,360 --> 01:11:21,400 Speaker 1: themselves now, which just like this. Yeah, you could argue 1254 01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:23,920 Speaker 1: that like elements of this or how like banks treat 1255 01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:26,920 Speaker 1: you when you get a mortgage, right, um, like, but 1256 01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:32,559 Speaker 1: but also that's much more rigorous and limited, like it 1257 01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:36,559 Speaker 1: has like regulations and has rules for how those things work. 1258 01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:40,440 Speaker 1: It's not some like twelve year old getting of like 1259 01:11:40,439 --> 01:11:43,040 Speaker 1: like going on to coin base and buying part of 1260 01:11:43,080 --> 01:11:45,920 Speaker 1: you as a joke with your with like his dad's money, right, 1261 01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:48,680 Speaker 1: Like because it's like yeah, because what if it's like 1262 01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:53,080 Speaker 1: there's no law against a seventeen year old I guess 1263 01:11:53,120 --> 01:11:55,640 Speaker 1: if maybe their parents may need to consent, but there's 1264 01:11:55,680 --> 01:11:57,559 Speaker 1: no law against the seventeen year old getting a facial 1265 01:11:57,600 --> 01:12:01,320 Speaker 1: tattoo of like the doors of a concentration camp on 1266 01:12:01,360 --> 01:12:04,760 Speaker 1: their face. But what if some kid tokenizes himself for 1267 01:12:04,760 --> 01:12:07,400 Speaker 1: forty grands so he can drop an EP and that's 1268 01:12:07,439 --> 01:12:10,320 Speaker 1: what like a bunch of four channers who buy up 1269 01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:13,719 Speaker 1: his his shares want him to do um. And maybe 1270 01:12:13,760 --> 01:12:15,400 Speaker 1: the fucking kid does that because he knows it's going 1271 01:12:15,439 --> 01:12:17,880 Speaker 1: to get him, because his brain is not done and 1272 01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:19,479 Speaker 1: he knows it's going to get him. A bunch of 1273 01:12:19,479 --> 01:12:23,479 Speaker 1: fucking social media uh clouds and like it's there's a 1274 01:12:23,479 --> 01:12:26,040 Speaker 1: lot of and there's no way to regulate that. Like 1275 01:12:26,080 --> 01:12:29,639 Speaker 1: it's just an inherently toxic proposition that I don't think 1276 01:12:29,680 --> 01:12:32,160 Speaker 1: the government would. I don't know what side of this 1277 01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:34,439 Speaker 1: the government would even step in on, Like what is 1278 01:12:34,439 --> 01:12:38,200 Speaker 1: the regulation of people deciding I'm letting random strangers who 1279 01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:40,240 Speaker 1: pay me money vote on what I do with my life. 1280 01:12:40,840 --> 01:12:42,439 Speaker 1: What do you ever think it reminds me of a 1281 01:12:42,479 --> 01:12:45,439 Speaker 1: lot is like the micro lending stuff from the nineties, 1282 01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:48,400 Speaker 1: where it was like, oh, well, we'll like empower these 1283 01:12:48,400 --> 01:12:51,040 Speaker 1: people by we'll go in and uh, We're going to 1284 01:12:51,120 --> 01:12:52,720 Speaker 1: give them like a small amount of money and have 1285 01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:54,720 Speaker 1: to pay back. And it was like, you know, and 1286 01:12:54,840 --> 01:12:57,840 Speaker 1: and all of the same stuff that you're reading, all 1287 01:12:57,880 --> 01:12:59,840 Speaker 1: the arguments about why this is a good thing or 1288 01:13:00,000 --> 01:13:02,960 Speaker 1: actually the name as the micro lending ones and that stuff. 1289 01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:04,599 Speaker 1: You know. There there were two ways it turned out. 1290 01:13:05,000 --> 01:13:10,679 Speaker 1: One was basically you get the scenario where both sides 1291 01:13:10,720 --> 01:13:13,880 Speaker 1: are scamming each other where you know, all the people 1292 01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:15,439 Speaker 1: who are getting these micro loans are just they're just 1293 01:13:15,439 --> 01:13:17,439 Speaker 1: taking the money and walking right like that's you know, 1294 01:13:17,520 --> 01:13:19,160 Speaker 1: the their their their things. Oh this is what I 1295 01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:20,479 Speaker 1: can just get money like this and we can just 1296 01:13:20,600 --> 01:13:22,720 Speaker 1: keep I just keep not paying it back, and so 1297 01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:25,400 Speaker 1: this I'm scamming them. But then on the other side 1298 01:13:25,439 --> 01:13:27,320 Speaker 1: you have these people who are like, oh cool, I 1299 01:13:27,320 --> 01:13:28,880 Speaker 1: can give this person this loan and turn them into 1300 01:13:28,920 --> 01:13:31,920 Speaker 1: a debt peon and it and you know, and and 1301 01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:34,680 Speaker 1: the the the really depressing side about it is so 1302 01:13:34,720 --> 01:13:37,840 Speaker 1: that the people who couldn't get away, Like I mean, 1303 01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:40,479 Speaker 1: we're literally reduced the debt pions and you know, I 1304 01:13:40,479 --> 01:13:43,800 Speaker 1: mean there's a huge wave of suicides in India probably 1305 01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:46,000 Speaker 1: don't say examples, wave of suicides, people drinking past a 1306 01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:48,360 Speaker 1: side because they couldn't pay off these loans and so 1307 01:13:48,600 --> 01:13:51,679 Speaker 1: and and the thing that's different about this is that 1308 01:13:51,720 --> 01:13:54,160 Speaker 1: like I mean, ay, you're doing it to yourself. But 1309 01:13:54,240 --> 01:13:58,760 Speaker 1: then be again, there's no regulation. But that also means 1310 01:13:58,800 --> 01:14:02,080 Speaker 1: there isn't any way to force someone to do what 1311 01:14:02,160 --> 01:14:07,080 Speaker 1: you're going It's unclear how it's going to be enforced. 1312 01:14:07,120 --> 01:14:08,519 Speaker 1: And the other thing that is clear it is like 1313 01:14:08,960 --> 01:14:11,960 Speaker 1: what does losses look like? Like what what happens when 1314 01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:15,480 Speaker 1: someone like you cannot make back on like an investment, 1315 01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:19,000 Speaker 1: But if the investment is a person, how does that work? 1316 01:14:19,120 --> 01:14:22,040 Speaker 1: And if someone's contractually obligated to give a certain share 1317 01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:24,639 Speaker 1: of their income, what happens when there's not enough income 1318 01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:28,160 Speaker 1: for that? Like like you know, so those types of things. Yeah, 1319 01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:31,240 Speaker 1: I mean there's no answer to that, uh, And there's 1320 01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:34,639 Speaker 1: nobody like the money that's going to be whatever made 1321 01:14:34,760 --> 01:14:39,479 Speaker 1: in this is going to be made before anyone steps 1322 01:14:39,479 --> 01:14:43,840 Speaker 1: into to try to answer that if anyone ever does, like, um, 1323 01:14:43,920 --> 01:14:46,719 Speaker 1: it's it's gonna be the next because I think we're 1324 01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:48,760 Speaker 1: I think we're heading for a crash with with n 1325 01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:51,120 Speaker 1: f t s. Like there was just an article today 1326 01:14:51,120 --> 01:14:54,599 Speaker 1: about how what of nfc T trading is done by 1327 01:14:54,640 --> 01:14:57,479 Speaker 1: like ten percent of people, which further back because the 1328 01:14:57,520 --> 01:14:59,519 Speaker 1: allegations of n f t S is that most of 1329 01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:02,439 Speaker 1: what's happen opening isn't people actually buying them. It's people 1330 01:15:03,040 --> 01:15:06,519 Speaker 1: like the same person using multiple wallets basically trying to 1331 01:15:06,600 --> 01:15:09,080 Speaker 1: jack up the perceived value by throwing a bunch of 1332 01:15:09,080 --> 01:15:11,519 Speaker 1: other Internet money that they already have. So these these 1333 01:15:11,520 --> 01:15:15,200 Speaker 1: whales who have like a bunch of crypto gaming the system, 1334 01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:16,760 Speaker 1: and we've seen some of it, and the biggest n 1335 01:15:16,760 --> 01:15:18,559 Speaker 1: f t S sale it was like half a billion 1336 01:15:18,600 --> 01:15:20,759 Speaker 1: dollars and it was a guy selling it to himself 1337 01:15:20,760 --> 01:15:23,400 Speaker 1: and then transferring it back into another wallet to try 1338 01:15:23,400 --> 01:15:25,519 Speaker 1: to make it look like it was worth half a 1339 01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:28,160 Speaker 1: billion dollars even though no one had actually really paid 1340 01:15:28,240 --> 01:15:32,280 Speaker 1: that for it. Um so I and I think you 1341 01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:34,479 Speaker 1: know that. And kind of what we've seen with the 1342 01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:36,920 Speaker 1: regulations the governments announced for n f t s. I 1343 01:15:36,920 --> 01:15:39,559 Speaker 1: think that's a problem for them in the near future. 1344 01:15:40,120 --> 01:15:43,639 Speaker 1: And I wouldn't be surprised to see this takeoff next, 1345 01:15:43,760 --> 01:15:46,680 Speaker 1: especially given like the creator economy that we're seeing on 1346 01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:52,320 Speaker 1: like the kind of that yeah TikTok, Like, I wouldn't 1347 01:15:52,320 --> 01:15:54,160 Speaker 1: be surprised if you saw a rash of big TikTok 1348 01:15:54,200 --> 01:15:58,000 Speaker 1: stars tokenizing themselves. And like I'm not even sure, I'm 1349 01:15:58,040 --> 01:16:00,320 Speaker 1: I'm sure it would be a mix of the person 1350 01:16:00,560 --> 01:16:03,080 Speaker 1: making the tokens being the one doing the scam and 1351 01:16:03,120 --> 01:16:06,960 Speaker 1: the person receiving or the people buying the tokens being 1352 01:16:07,000 --> 01:16:08,240 Speaker 1: the one doing. Like I'm sure it would be a 1353 01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:11,760 Speaker 1: mix of different kinds of exploitation. But it's not gonna 1354 01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:14,599 Speaker 1: be good, I mean, and and just like it's gonna 1355 01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:17,800 Speaker 1: make like I don't know, fifty people super rich when 1356 01:16:17,800 --> 01:16:19,960 Speaker 1: they when they first start trying it, right like that 1357 01:16:19,800 --> 01:16:22,439 Speaker 1: that is that is like when this happens, like when 1358 01:16:22,439 --> 01:16:25,720 Speaker 1: a TikTok star with five million followers, when they do this, 1359 01:16:25,960 --> 01:16:28,640 Speaker 1: they will make boatloads of money. It's just unclear what 1360 01:16:28,720 --> 01:16:34,639 Speaker 1: happens after that. Yeah, well, Fleet of Mexico, Yeah, I mean, 1361 01:16:34,640 --> 01:16:36,280 Speaker 1: that would be the smart thing. That would be the 1362 01:16:36,320 --> 01:16:39,880 Speaker 1: smart thing to do. Yeah, In this Forbes article I found, 1363 01:16:39,880 --> 01:16:42,920 Speaker 1: which is a thousand times better than the Atlantic article, Like, 1364 01:16:42,960 --> 01:16:45,120 Speaker 1: even though it's written by someone I think who's also 1365 01:16:45,880 --> 01:16:49,400 Speaker 1: into crypto, it's just it Actually it asks some of 1366 01:16:49,439 --> 01:16:52,200 Speaker 1: these questions we've been talking about UM, and it cites 1367 01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:55,320 Speaker 1: David Hoffman, who's the CEO of a of a token 1368 01:16:55,360 --> 01:16:58,760 Speaker 1: ized real estate platform UM on what he sees as 1369 01:16:58,800 --> 01:17:01,200 Speaker 1: some of the problems. Like he, as a guy who's 1370 01:17:01,479 --> 01:17:04,760 Speaker 1: supports aspects of this kind of thing, sees is the 1371 01:17:04,800 --> 01:17:10,360 Speaker 1: problems with this and uh, it's yeah, let sec um 1372 01:17:10,479 --> 01:17:13,839 Speaker 1: Hoffman re returning to his core problem with the personal 1373 01:17:13,840 --> 01:17:17,200 Speaker 1: token model model, Hoffman re emphasized that the assurances and 1374 01:17:17,280 --> 01:17:21,240 Speaker 1: utility that come with some of these tokens don't exist, 1375 01:17:21,320 --> 01:17:24,120 Speaker 1: for with with certain kinds of tokens don't exist for 1376 01:17:24,160 --> 01:17:27,080 Speaker 1: like these personal tokens. How risky this investment is is 1377 01:17:27,120 --> 01:17:30,439 Speaker 1: completely defined by the individual. In his disclaimer, he's and 1378 01:17:30,520 --> 01:17:32,360 Speaker 1: he's talking about one of the guys who's token himself, 1379 01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:35,720 Speaker 1: this guy named Kerman. In his disclaimer, he says this 1380 01:17:35,760 --> 01:17:37,639 Speaker 1: is a highly risky investment and that you could lose 1381 01:17:37,680 --> 01:17:39,360 Speaker 1: all your money, which is a terrible thing to say 1382 01:17:39,400 --> 01:17:42,240 Speaker 1: because with personal tokens. The issuer is in complete control 1383 01:17:42,320 --> 01:17:45,479 Speaker 1: over exactly how risky the investment actually is. It's largely 1384 01:17:45,560 --> 01:17:47,880 Speaker 1: up to them whether there are risks or not, which 1385 01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:51,120 Speaker 1: is like a kind of illegal securities trading that I 1386 01:17:51,120 --> 01:17:55,280 Speaker 1: don't think we've ever anyone's ever done. Um Like, it's this, 1387 01:17:55,479 --> 01:18:03,679 Speaker 1: It's this fascinating new con where you're literally the you're 1388 01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:06,479 Speaker 1: you're doing securities trading, but instead of it being over 1389 01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:10,480 Speaker 1: a company, it's just you and technically there's no consequences 1390 01:18:10,479 --> 01:18:13,560 Speaker 1: if you just take the money and run, Like I 1391 01:18:13,640 --> 01:18:16,080 Speaker 1: don't know what kind of contract, Like, you couldn't have 1392 01:18:16,120 --> 01:18:18,560 Speaker 1: a contract that says that you could say, they're that 1393 01:18:18,640 --> 01:18:21,880 Speaker 1: you're obligated to pay out your future earnings, but you 1394 01:18:21,920 --> 01:18:26,000 Speaker 1: couldn't have to work Like that's not enforceable. You can't 1395 01:18:26,040 --> 01:18:33,000 Speaker 1: like contractually obligate someone two to like work, like you're 1396 01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:35,640 Speaker 1: allowed to quit a job. I mean, I guess you 1397 01:18:35,640 --> 01:18:38,200 Speaker 1: could put penalties in it, but I don't, like none 1398 01:18:38,200 --> 01:18:39,840 Speaker 1: of the current ones have anything, I mean, or they 1399 01:18:39,880 --> 01:18:42,680 Speaker 1: could go to The other option is is that they 1400 01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:45,240 Speaker 1: could go to jail for fraud if they try to 1401 01:18:45,360 --> 01:18:47,559 Speaker 1: if they try to not follow through on the investment. 1402 01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:49,960 Speaker 1: If you say like, yeah, I I invested in you 1403 01:18:50,000 --> 01:18:52,240 Speaker 1: and you said that you would do these things, you 1404 01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:54,840 Speaker 1: didn't do them. Now you can go to prison. That 1405 01:18:54,960 --> 01:18:58,960 Speaker 1: is the other Yeah, and I think that will at 1406 01:18:59,040 --> 01:19:01,720 Speaker 1: some point, like will be scams and some of that 1407 01:19:01,760 --> 01:19:03,240 Speaker 1: will come in. But like none of these current ones, 1408 01:19:03,320 --> 01:19:05,360 Speaker 1: none of them are saying, here's my specific I'm going 1409 01:19:05,400 --> 01:19:09,040 Speaker 1: to make this special. It's not like if you like 1410 01:19:09,040 --> 01:19:12,080 Speaker 1: like with a Patreon, right, You're you're paying a little 1411 01:19:12,080 --> 01:19:14,600 Speaker 1: bit at a time on an ongoing basis for a 1412 01:19:14,680 --> 01:19:18,400 Speaker 1: very clear product. Generally, this is so far. These aren't that. 1413 01:19:18,439 --> 01:19:20,479 Speaker 1: They're just like, I'm gonna try to do something that 1414 01:19:20,520 --> 01:19:22,160 Speaker 1: makes money and if it does, you get a cut 1415 01:19:22,160 --> 01:19:25,840 Speaker 1: of it. And that's it's so much like there's nothing 1416 01:19:25,840 --> 01:19:28,400 Speaker 1: that's stopping mass Metch from saying like, hey, my my 1417 01:19:28,680 --> 01:19:32,320 Speaker 1: and my attempt didn't work. Uh so we're done. No 1418 01:19:32,320 --> 01:19:35,160 Speaker 1: no money for anybody like that, and I you're not. 1419 01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:37,960 Speaker 1: There's no accounting requirements, there's no there's a bunch of 1420 01:19:37,960 --> 01:19:40,479 Speaker 1: ways in which it's sucked up from a financial except 1421 01:19:40,560 --> 01:19:43,880 Speaker 1: it's not it's not his, it's not it's not you're 1422 01:19:43,880 --> 01:19:46,080 Speaker 1: not investing in his business. You're nesting in him. So 1423 01:19:46,120 --> 01:19:48,240 Speaker 1: even if even if even if he takes another job, 1424 01:19:48,760 --> 01:19:52,960 Speaker 1: there's still it seems to be contractually obligated to still 1425 01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:56,599 Speaker 1: get that of his income. Yes, And I think that's 1426 01:19:56,680 --> 01:19:58,200 Speaker 1: that's the area in which I think it would be 1427 01:19:58,240 --> 01:20:02,799 Speaker 1: abusive for the person being to ganized because most people 1428 01:20:02,960 --> 01:20:06,120 Speaker 1: aren't gonna like most people don't make that much money. 1429 01:20:06,240 --> 01:20:09,640 Speaker 1: So they raise someone manages to like raise five or 1430 01:20:09,640 --> 01:20:12,920 Speaker 1: ten grand and then just winds up for years giving 1431 01:20:12,920 --> 01:20:15,519 Speaker 1: a cut of their income that winds up being more 1432 01:20:15,520 --> 01:20:17,720 Speaker 1: than they got initially to a bunch of like it's 1433 01:20:17,720 --> 01:20:21,920 Speaker 1: almost like a like a payday loan that you've blockchain. 1434 01:20:22,439 --> 01:20:24,400 Speaker 1: Yeah you know, Okay, so this is this is what 1435 01:20:24,439 --> 01:20:26,559 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about because so there's I don't know if 1436 01:20:26,560 --> 01:20:28,960 Speaker 1: I talked about this on the show, but there's a 1437 01:20:28,960 --> 01:20:32,160 Speaker 1: thing in China where they've been kind of cracking down 1438 01:20:32,200 --> 01:20:35,840 Speaker 1: it now for stunning nineteen Like literally every single app 1439 01:20:36,160 --> 01:20:38,720 Speaker 1: like had a like had a pet a loan thing 1440 01:20:38,720 --> 01:20:41,240 Speaker 1: in it, so like like your flashlight app would have 1441 01:20:41,439 --> 01:20:43,000 Speaker 1: would offer you a pet a loan, and it was 1442 01:20:43,240 --> 01:20:45,680 Speaker 1: basically it was yeah, they were there was originally tied 1443 01:20:45,720 --> 01:20:49,200 Speaker 1: in with like people who buy um. You know, I 1444 01:20:49,200 --> 01:20:51,479 Speaker 1: was originally tied in with like like the the the 1445 01:20:51,800 --> 01:20:54,920 Speaker 1: services that, like their version of Amazon, for example, would like, 1446 01:20:55,200 --> 01:20:56,599 Speaker 1: oh hey, we'll give you a loan so you can 1447 01:20:56,640 --> 01:20:58,880 Speaker 1: buy this, you can order fried chicken. And I was 1448 01:20:58,920 --> 01:21:02,679 Speaker 1: always wondering when it has become to the US, and 1449 01:21:03,360 --> 01:21:05,600 Speaker 1: I think it might never hope, I mean hopefully it 1450 01:21:05,600 --> 01:21:07,120 Speaker 1: never does. And I think it might not just because 1451 01:21:07,160 --> 01:21:10,360 Speaker 1: of how like powerful our paid a loan industry is. 1452 01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:14,200 Speaker 1: But it's like we've we've now invented. It seems like 1453 01:21:14,240 --> 01:21:17,880 Speaker 1: it's gonna happen, but like dumber, like our our version 1454 01:21:17,960 --> 01:21:22,439 Speaker 1: of it is like this thing, which is just you know, 1455 01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:24,760 Speaker 1: it's what what if? What if paid a loans but 1456 01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:29,080 Speaker 1: on the blockchain? Except you know when I guess this 1457 01:21:29,120 --> 01:21:31,280 Speaker 1: is the everything you know that that we've've been getting at, 1458 01:21:31,360 --> 01:21:34,280 Speaker 1: is that the difference between this being a paid a 1459 01:21:34,280 --> 01:21:37,400 Speaker 1: loan and this being you scammed a bunch of people 1460 01:21:37,720 --> 01:21:42,559 Speaker 1: is what the enforcement mechanism looks like. And you know 1461 01:21:43,160 --> 01:21:44,880 Speaker 1: this this this comes back to some other things I 1462 01:21:44,920 --> 01:21:49,400 Speaker 1: think you're interesting about. This one is that you know, 1463 01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:51,519 Speaker 1: so the whole the huntline n f T drift right 1464 01:21:51,680 --> 01:21:56,440 Speaker 1: is based on convincing people that there's value in ownership 1465 01:21:56,520 --> 01:22:00,880 Speaker 1: right there, Like ownership itself has inherently has value. And yeah, 1466 01:22:00,920 --> 01:22:03,040 Speaker 1: but but this this is not that this is this 1467 01:22:03,120 --> 01:22:05,160 Speaker 1: is you know, this is going back to know your 1468 01:22:05,240 --> 01:22:09,280 Speaker 1: value value is built on labor, right well, yeah, it's 1469 01:22:09,360 --> 01:22:13,200 Speaker 1: like labor and like like personhood, like like you as 1470 01:22:13,200 --> 01:22:16,400 Speaker 1: a personal brand is the thing that they're trying to 1471 01:22:16,400 --> 01:22:19,000 Speaker 1: get at. But the thing, the thing that's missing here though, 1472 01:22:19,120 --> 01:22:22,320 Speaker 1: is that in order for like you know, in order 1473 01:22:22,360 --> 01:22:25,800 Speaker 1: for like labor to produce value right in this way, 1474 01:22:25,880 --> 01:22:28,120 Speaker 1: there has to be like there has to be a 1475 01:22:28,120 --> 01:22:30,120 Speaker 1: way for you to force them to pay you like 1476 01:22:30,200 --> 01:22:32,760 Speaker 1: you need you need coercion for it. And if there's 1477 01:22:32,800 --> 01:22:34,920 Speaker 1: no coercion, then you know, you just take a bunch 1478 01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:37,920 Speaker 1: of money and leave. And and that that I think 1479 01:22:38,000 --> 01:22:39,839 Speaker 1: is like this, this is going to be the battle 1480 01:22:39,960 --> 01:22:42,640 Speaker 1: over like if this becomes a thing, it's gonna be 1481 01:22:43,520 --> 01:22:45,920 Speaker 1: you know, the people who buy these things are gonna 1482 01:22:45,920 --> 01:22:48,840 Speaker 1: wind up like trying to you know, I think they're 1483 01:22:48,840 --> 01:22:50,160 Speaker 1: gonna be the ones you try to put your regulation 1484 01:22:50,160 --> 01:22:52,000 Speaker 1: because they're gonna you know, they're gonna go in. They're 1485 01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:54,439 Speaker 1: gonna be I want to get my money back, and 1486 01:22:55,320 --> 01:22:59,760 Speaker 1: that could end really, really really badly if you know, 1487 01:23:00,479 --> 01:23:03,920 Speaker 1: I mean it probably will. I like, I don't know 1488 01:23:03,960 --> 01:23:06,559 Speaker 1: how popular I think this will be because I think 1489 01:23:06,600 --> 01:23:09,240 Speaker 1: that I hope this is a maybe if there'd never 1490 01:23:09,280 --> 01:23:11,639 Speaker 1: been like a Patreon or something, But the actual use 1491 01:23:11,720 --> 01:23:16,599 Speaker 1: case of this seems to already be well served by 1492 01:23:16,600 --> 01:23:22,000 Speaker 1: the existing capitalist infrastructure. Like people, I think more people 1493 01:23:22,080 --> 01:23:25,120 Speaker 1: wanted back a creator's Patreon than they want to like 1494 01:23:25,200 --> 01:23:30,480 Speaker 1: own pieces of a person's time and earning potential like that. 1495 01:23:30,479 --> 01:23:33,400 Speaker 1: That seems like a more niche and weird desire to 1496 01:23:33,520 --> 01:23:35,320 Speaker 1: people than just like, oh, yeah, these guys make a 1497 01:23:35,400 --> 01:23:38,400 Speaker 1: video I like every week, so I'll throw them three dollars. Well, 1498 01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:41,160 Speaker 1: I think. I think the difference though, is that Patreon 1499 01:23:41,200 --> 01:23:43,439 Speaker 1: money gets you money for normal people. This gets you 1500 01:23:43,479 --> 01:23:47,599 Speaker 1: money from like tech bros. And that. Yeah, that's always yeah, 1501 01:23:48,160 --> 01:23:51,519 Speaker 1: it's it's a griff designed to And I want to 1502 01:23:51,560 --> 01:23:53,840 Speaker 1: dive back into this Atlantic article because it's so bad 1503 01:23:53,880 --> 01:23:56,440 Speaker 1: in such a comprehensive way that I think it deserves analysis. 1504 01:23:56,560 --> 01:23:58,719 Speaker 1: That's what what put a pin in what you said. 1505 01:23:59,040 --> 01:24:01,519 Speaker 1: But I want to start with, like how the person 1506 01:24:01,680 --> 01:24:06,479 Speaker 1: writing this, this Rerex motherfucker, like his his concept of 1507 01:24:06,520 --> 01:24:11,040 Speaker 1: the the history of the Internet. Um, because it's completely wrong. Quote. 1508 01:24:11,360 --> 01:24:13,800 Speaker 1: We're on the precipice of the third era of the Web. 1509 01:24:13,920 --> 01:24:16,800 Speaker 1: The web's first era was about information flowing freely. Think 1510 01:24:16,880 --> 01:24:19,680 Speaker 1: Google giving you access to the world's knowledge. Most of 1511 01:24:19,760 --> 01:24:22,519 Speaker 1: us were passive consumers in this era. The second era 1512 01:24:22,600 --> 01:24:25,840 Speaker 1: was the social web Facebook, Instagram, Twitter. People began to 1513 01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:28,639 Speaker 1: create their own content, and that content became the lifeblood 1514 01:24:28,640 --> 01:24:31,600 Speaker 1: of the big platforms. We became active participants, but the 1515 01:24:31,640 --> 01:24:34,799 Speaker 1: platforms devoured all the profits. The promise of the Internet 1516 01:24:34,880 --> 01:24:37,360 Speaker 1: and the Internet was to erase the gatekeepers. Instead of 1517 01:24:37,400 --> 01:24:39,280 Speaker 1: waiting for a record label to sign you, you could 1518 01:24:39,320 --> 01:24:42,680 Speaker 1: share your music on Spotify, instead of asking a publication 1519 01:24:42,720 --> 01:24:45,120 Speaker 1: to share your words. You could tweet, instead of being 1520 01:24:45,120 --> 01:24:47,680 Speaker 1: tapped by a studio execut You could become a YouTuber. 1521 01:24:48,000 --> 01:24:51,280 Speaker 1: What happened is that these platforms became the new gatekeepers. 1522 01:24:51,560 --> 01:24:53,840 Speaker 1: The third era of the web is about writing the ship. 1523 01:24:54,120 --> 01:24:58,280 Speaker 1: Social capital becomes economic capital. Value no longer accumulates to 1524 01:24:58,320 --> 01:25:04,320 Speaker 1: brokers and intermediaries. That's number one, completely wrong, But one thing. Yeah. 1525 01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:07,080 Speaker 1: The first era of the Internet, I would say, was 1526 01:25:07,120 --> 01:25:10,040 Speaker 1: about the idea that information should flow freely, and Google 1527 01:25:10,120 --> 01:25:12,439 Speaker 1: came in like a decade or more into that period, 1528 01:25:12,800 --> 01:25:14,599 Speaker 1: Like I had been on the Internet five years before 1529 01:25:14,600 --> 01:25:16,960 Speaker 1: Google hopped into that ship, and Google was actually the 1530 01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:20,920 Speaker 1: start of of the end of that period. Um. And 1531 01:25:20,960 --> 01:25:24,680 Speaker 1: it's it's the idea that, like the social web was 1532 01:25:24,800 --> 01:25:29,479 Speaker 1: people creating their own content. Most of the social web's 1533 01:25:29,560 --> 01:25:33,200 Speaker 1: initial capital and like all of its initial money, came 1534 01:25:33,280 --> 01:25:36,400 Speaker 1: from taking content that people were being paid to make 1535 01:25:36,479 --> 01:25:40,160 Speaker 1: on legacy platforms that had existed before social media, taking 1536 01:25:40,200 --> 01:25:44,080 Speaker 1: that content, putting it on social media, and then monetizing 1537 01:25:44,160 --> 01:25:46,679 Speaker 1: that without paying money back to the people had made 1538 01:25:46,680 --> 01:25:49,960 Speaker 1: the content. The money in social media did not initially 1539 01:25:50,040 --> 01:25:53,439 Speaker 1: come from people making their own content. And the way 1540 01:25:53,439 --> 01:25:56,599 Speaker 1: that they mean it, like yeah, you at college humor 1541 01:25:56,800 --> 01:26:00,160 Speaker 1: or whatever, we're making your own content and sharing on 1542 01:26:00,200 --> 01:26:02,479 Speaker 1: social media, but you've been doing that before social media. 1543 01:26:02,520 --> 01:26:05,880 Speaker 1: Social media just actually made it less profitable eventually, Like 1544 01:26:06,120 --> 01:26:09,360 Speaker 1: the way he summarizes this is so wrong because what 1545 01:26:09,479 --> 01:26:11,320 Speaker 1: the social web actually did. And the other thing I'd 1546 01:26:11,360 --> 01:26:13,840 Speaker 1: argue is that the first era of the Internet, the 1547 01:26:13,920 --> 01:26:16,559 Speaker 1: like early days when things are happening on like forums 1548 01:26:16,560 --> 01:26:19,040 Speaker 1: and and weird little angel fire websites and like even 1549 01:26:19,080 --> 01:26:22,439 Speaker 1: my space, um, which I think is kind of my 1550 01:26:22,479 --> 01:26:26,120 Speaker 1: Space kind of straddles the first in second eras uh 1551 01:26:26,160 --> 01:26:30,320 Speaker 1: that was fundamentally much more an era of people creating 1552 01:26:30,320 --> 01:26:35,080 Speaker 1: their own content, because the the lifeblood of uh social 1553 01:26:35,120 --> 01:26:37,559 Speaker 1: media today isn't people really making their own content, it's 1554 01:26:37,560 --> 01:26:40,960 Speaker 1: people reacting to content that other people made. Um. And 1555 01:26:40,960 --> 01:26:44,040 Speaker 1: again it just shows the fact that he's he's summarizing 1556 01:26:44,040 --> 01:26:45,600 Speaker 1: it this way in a way that I think is 1557 01:26:45,640 --> 01:26:49,840 Speaker 1: so wrong and inaccurate to how things actually developed. Uh. 1558 01:26:50,280 --> 01:26:53,720 Speaker 1: Is characteristic of his attitude towards this stuff, where he's 1559 01:26:53,800 --> 01:26:57,839 Speaker 1: kind of seeing the only real meaningful evolutions in in 1560 01:26:57,840 --> 01:27:02,560 Speaker 1: in the Internet through the corporation that monetized it, um. 1561 01:27:02,600 --> 01:27:05,639 Speaker 1: Which is just telling of like how this guy actually 1562 01:27:05,680 --> 01:27:07,920 Speaker 1: sees the way the Internet has developed. And you will 1563 01:27:07,920 --> 01:27:10,920 Speaker 1: not be surprised to know, Uh, this motherfucker is an 1564 01:27:10,920 --> 01:27:15,920 Speaker 1: investor at Index Ventures. UM. Yeah, like he's he's he's 1565 01:27:15,920 --> 01:27:21,040 Speaker 1: a guy whose business is capitalizing things, um. And so 1566 01:27:21,120 --> 01:27:23,360 Speaker 1: that's the only way he sees the development of the Internet, 1567 01:27:23,400 --> 01:27:25,680 Speaker 1: even though that's not the accurate way of looking at 1568 01:27:25,680 --> 01:27:27,920 Speaker 1: how the Internet evolved. And I think I think that 1569 01:27:28,000 --> 01:27:30,479 Speaker 1: there's one more really important thing that he leaves out here, 1570 01:27:30,520 --> 01:27:33,080 Speaker 1: which is that because you know, like we're talking oh, 1571 01:27:33,160 --> 01:27:34,559 Speaker 1: this is the third age the Internet. Like, no, the 1572 01:27:34,600 --> 01:27:37,000 Speaker 1: third day of the Internet started, like I don't know, 1573 01:27:37,400 --> 01:27:41,599 Speaker 1: the mid early tends. When I would say when gamer 1574 01:27:41,640 --> 01:27:43,840 Speaker 1: Gate hit is when I would I would I mean, 1575 01:27:43,840 --> 01:27:46,519 Speaker 1: it's gonna be a little offend. It depends which it 1576 01:27:46,520 --> 01:27:48,960 Speaker 1: depends what you mean by age. So one of my 1577 01:27:49,000 --> 01:27:52,360 Speaker 1: friends worst in advertising, and he was talking about this 1578 01:27:52,439 --> 01:27:54,040 Speaker 1: where you know, we can we can talk about like 1579 01:27:54,080 --> 01:27:55,800 Speaker 1: gammer gating the sort of fascist males, but there was 1580 01:27:55,840 --> 01:27:58,519 Speaker 1: something else happening back end, which was the Internet of 1581 01:27:58,600 --> 01:28:01,320 Speaker 1: things stuff and the Internet things stuff off like you know, 1582 01:28:01,960 --> 01:28:04,320 Speaker 1: like nobody, it's kind of a I don't know, like 1583 01:28:04,360 --> 01:28:06,080 Speaker 1: I think we mostly think about it's like it's kind 1584 01:28:06,120 --> 01:28:08,559 Speaker 1: of a joke or like it just sucks. But really 1585 01:28:08,600 --> 01:28:10,719 Speaker 1: what it was was that that that was the period 1586 01:28:10,720 --> 01:28:12,680 Speaker 1: in which people figured out that the thing that the 1587 01:28:12,800 --> 01:28:14,479 Speaker 1: actual money and be made on the Internet was from 1588 01:28:14,479 --> 01:28:17,560 Speaker 1: selling people's personal information. And that and the and and 1589 01:28:17,600 --> 01:28:21,240 Speaker 1: the Internet things like just dramatic, like just indescribably increased 1590 01:28:21,280 --> 01:28:23,439 Speaker 1: the amount of data that you could extract from people. 1591 01:28:24,000 --> 01:28:26,960 Speaker 1: And that that was that's the actual that was the 1592 01:28:27,000 --> 01:28:29,400 Speaker 1: actual change of like like that that that's that's that's 1593 01:28:29,400 --> 01:28:30,760 Speaker 1: the thirty of the Internet, and that the earth of 1594 01:28:30,760 --> 01:28:33,439 Speaker 1: the Internet will last basically for every until we destroy it, 1595 01:28:33,760 --> 01:28:38,599 Speaker 1: which is that you know, the commodity is just all 1596 01:28:38,640 --> 01:28:40,880 Speaker 1: of all of the information about who you are, where 1597 01:28:40,920 --> 01:28:43,559 Speaker 1: you go, like what you buy, who you talk to. 1598 01:28:44,439 --> 01:28:48,400 Speaker 1: That just being sold off to two advertisers is you know, 1599 01:28:49,200 --> 01:28:52,880 Speaker 1: the thing that he's very very carefully not talking about 1600 01:28:54,520 --> 01:28:57,240 Speaker 1: and instead focusing on, Oh, it was using was creating content. 1601 01:28:57,320 --> 01:29:00,240 Speaker 1: And it's like, no, they the Internet, that the just 1602 01:29:00,600 --> 01:29:04,280 Speaker 1: they they sold spying on the entire world. Yeah, And 1603 01:29:04,600 --> 01:29:07,799 Speaker 1: I think there's there's two good ways to to divide 1604 01:29:07,800 --> 01:29:10,559 Speaker 1: the Internet into ages, and the ages would be slightly 1605 01:29:10,560 --> 01:29:12,320 Speaker 1: different each way. One is kind of how you're doing 1606 01:29:12,360 --> 01:29:14,680 Speaker 1: it is the way in which it was monetized, Right, 1607 01:29:15,080 --> 01:29:17,360 Speaker 1: That's that's that's one way too. And and then if 1608 01:29:17,400 --> 01:29:18,760 Speaker 1: that's the case, it's going to start with it was 1609 01:29:18,800 --> 01:29:20,559 Speaker 1: not at all. It was an entirely public project and 1610 01:29:20,560 --> 01:29:22,720 Speaker 1: everybody on it was on it through like a university, 1611 01:29:22,760 --> 01:29:25,559 Speaker 1: and like people did not pay to access it. Other 1612 01:29:25,600 --> 01:29:27,640 Speaker 1: than that you had to be at an institution or 1613 01:29:27,680 --> 01:29:30,880 Speaker 1: a university. And then like we get to the kind 1614 01:29:30,920 --> 01:29:33,160 Speaker 1: of the dot the era before for the dot com 1615 01:29:33,200 --> 01:29:35,280 Speaker 1: boom and of the dot com boom, and then like 1616 01:29:35,360 --> 01:29:39,040 Speaker 1: the early pre social internet stuff like something awful and 1617 01:29:39,120 --> 01:29:43,599 Speaker 1: like having stumbled upon and and whatnot, and like those 1618 01:29:43,760 --> 01:29:45,800 Speaker 1: sending traffic to sites like where I used to work, 1619 01:29:45,800 --> 01:29:48,759 Speaker 1: cracked and um. And then kind of the social media, 1620 01:29:48,840 --> 01:29:50,639 Speaker 1: which is the start of as you said, like the 1621 01:29:50,720 --> 01:29:54,280 Speaker 1: data being monitored monetize, like individuals data being the thing 1622 01:29:54,680 --> 01:29:57,439 Speaker 1: either that's being directly monetized or it's being used to 1623 01:29:57,479 --> 01:30:01,679 Speaker 1: deliver like targeted adds to you. Um. And then there's 1624 01:30:01,720 --> 01:30:03,519 Speaker 1: like if you think about it in terms of content, 1625 01:30:03,800 --> 01:30:06,679 Speaker 1: it's it starts like for the first era wouldn't even 1626 01:30:06,680 --> 01:30:08,960 Speaker 1: involve Google because it would be like the start of 1627 01:30:09,040 --> 01:30:12,760 Speaker 1: usenet up to eternal September in nine and then you 1628 01:30:12,800 --> 01:30:15,599 Speaker 1: know on from there. Um. But either way, this guy 1629 01:30:15,640 --> 01:30:18,320 Speaker 1: doesn't like everything he says about the history of the 1630 01:30:18,360 --> 01:30:22,080 Speaker 1: Internet is dumb. It's just a very simplified version and 1631 01:30:22,120 --> 01:30:25,719 Speaker 1: you don't actually look at like the interocking systems um. 1632 01:30:25,800 --> 01:30:28,040 Speaker 1: Because I mean, yeah, I don't know why he describes 1633 01:30:28,080 --> 01:30:31,679 Speaker 1: it this way, because it is it is, like it's 1634 01:30:31,880 --> 01:30:35,560 Speaker 1: accurate if you squint and don't think about it. Um. 1635 01:30:35,560 --> 01:30:38,200 Speaker 1: But it's weird because like this article is like it's 1636 01:30:38,280 --> 01:30:41,320 Speaker 1: four tech Bros. So I don't know why he describes 1637 01:30:41,360 --> 01:30:43,439 Speaker 1: it this way, because I feel like he could describe 1638 01:30:43,479 --> 01:30:45,840 Speaker 1: it a lot more accurately. Um if you if you 1639 01:30:45,880 --> 01:30:48,240 Speaker 1: wanted to. Well, it's something i'm gonna get into. I'm 1640 01:30:48,240 --> 01:30:50,080 Speaker 1: gonna say this point like twice eveisode. I'm gonna get 1641 01:30:50,080 --> 01:30:52,760 Speaker 1: into the neo liberalism episodes. And I'm writing but one 1642 01:30:52,760 --> 01:30:54,760 Speaker 1: of one of the key features of neoliberalisms that they 1643 01:30:54,800 --> 01:30:56,960 Speaker 1: lie is that the neo liberals have to have two 1644 01:30:57,040 --> 01:30:58,680 Speaker 1: versions of what they believe. They have the version that 1645 01:30:58,720 --> 01:31:00,760 Speaker 1: they tell everyone else, which is completely a lie and 1646 01:31:00,840 --> 01:31:02,400 Speaker 1: is not what they believe at all. And then it 1647 01:31:02,439 --> 01:31:04,120 Speaker 1: has they have the version that they tell to each other, 1648 01:31:04,200 --> 01:31:06,320 Speaker 1: which is what they actually believe, and they completely they 1649 01:31:06,320 --> 01:31:09,760 Speaker 1: contradict each other completely. They mostly believe things. Everything that 1650 01:31:09,760 --> 01:31:11,760 Speaker 1: they say in public is just a complete lie. And 1651 01:31:11,760 --> 01:31:13,720 Speaker 1: that I think that's what he's doing here, which is 1652 01:31:13,720 --> 01:31:16,080 Speaker 1: that this that like that history of the Internet is 1653 01:31:16,080 --> 01:31:18,880 Speaker 1: the one you sell the public consumption, because yeah, that 1654 01:31:18,960 --> 01:31:20,720 Speaker 1: that's that's that's the lie you tell people to take 1655 01:31:20,720 --> 01:31:22,720 Speaker 1: money from them. And then he has the thing that 1656 01:31:22,760 --> 01:31:25,639 Speaker 1: he believes, which he will not ever tell you because 1657 01:31:26,080 --> 01:31:27,800 Speaker 1: you know if if if he tells you what like 1658 01:31:27,880 --> 01:31:29,559 Speaker 1: he actually wanted to do, you would run screaming from 1659 01:31:29,560 --> 01:31:33,920 Speaker 1: the room. And you can read between what he wants 1660 01:31:33,960 --> 01:31:37,160 Speaker 1: you to believe. I think is made very clear by 1661 01:31:37,240 --> 01:31:39,479 Speaker 1: how he divides, by the fact that when he starts 1662 01:31:39,560 --> 01:31:41,200 Speaker 1: like dividing up the ages of the Internet, he says, 1663 01:31:41,240 --> 01:31:43,360 Speaker 1: the first one is the time in which people wanted 1664 01:31:43,400 --> 01:31:46,080 Speaker 1: information to be free. And what he's kind of saying 1665 01:31:46,160 --> 01:31:48,360 Speaker 1: by doing that is thing like that was an infant 1666 01:31:48,479 --> 01:31:52,280 Speaker 1: stage of the Internet. And obviously the natural evolution of 1667 01:31:52,320 --> 01:31:54,840 Speaker 1: the Internet is for every single thing on it to 1668 01:31:54,880 --> 01:31:58,080 Speaker 1: become monetized. And because I also believe the Internet should 1669 01:31:58,120 --> 01:32:00,600 Speaker 1: be every aspect of our lives, like this is megaverse 1670 01:32:00,640 --> 01:32:02,679 Speaker 1: guy or a metaverse guy, like I think the Internet 1671 01:32:02,680 --> 01:32:05,720 Speaker 1: should should be involved in every aspect of life. That 1672 01:32:05,760 --> 01:32:09,559 Speaker 1: means every aspect of life should be financialized. Um, and 1673 01:32:09,640 --> 01:32:13,840 Speaker 1: that's extremely radical, but it does not sound that way. 1674 01:32:13,880 --> 01:32:17,040 Speaker 1: When you describe it that way, people's heads go over it. 1675 01:32:17,080 --> 01:32:19,320 Speaker 1: But like, what he's saying is deeply radical. And I 1676 01:32:19,360 --> 01:32:22,160 Speaker 1: think also like again, you want to talk about like 1677 01:32:22,200 --> 01:32:25,160 Speaker 1: the first and not just the early age, because the 1678 01:32:25,479 --> 01:32:27,360 Speaker 1: first people who kind of built the backbone of the 1679 01:32:27,400 --> 01:32:32,720 Speaker 1: Internet were mostly like very radically anti uh capitalizing on 1680 01:32:32,840 --> 01:32:35,160 Speaker 1: like there was this idea that like it absolutely should 1681 01:32:35,160 --> 01:32:37,920 Speaker 1: be as free as possible. Like Steve Wozniak, the guy 1682 01:32:37,960 --> 01:32:42,360 Speaker 1: who functionally invented the personal computer, had a background like 1683 01:32:42,560 --> 01:32:45,559 Speaker 1: as a phone freaker, like literally literally robbing phone companies 1684 01:32:45,600 --> 01:32:47,439 Speaker 1: to get like free phone calls and stuff like these, 1685 01:32:47,680 --> 01:32:50,720 Speaker 1: Like most of the early Internet pioneers were like some 1686 01:32:50,800 --> 01:32:55,120 Speaker 1: kind of criminal um And the early ages of like 1687 01:32:55,200 --> 01:32:59,160 Speaker 1: Internet content being monetized mostly started with people doing ship 1688 01:32:59,400 --> 01:33:01,679 Speaker 1: for free. Like that was how the people who made 1689 01:33:01,680 --> 01:33:03,640 Speaker 1: money on it. That's how all of my bosses and 1690 01:33:03,640 --> 01:33:05,320 Speaker 1: that's how fucking I got started. Was like you would 1691 01:33:05,320 --> 01:33:06,920 Speaker 1: just start making ship and you would put it out 1692 01:33:06,960 --> 01:33:10,960 Speaker 1: for free, and eventually like that would get enough traffic 1693 01:33:11,040 --> 01:33:14,120 Speaker 1: that you you you you draw ads to you and whatnot, 1694 01:33:14,200 --> 01:33:16,679 Speaker 1: and you'd make money. But it was always like all 1695 01:33:16,720 --> 01:33:19,040 Speaker 1: of the content that that made the Internet, and all 1696 01:33:19,040 --> 01:33:22,240 Speaker 1: of the content creators who were huge now mostly started 1697 01:33:22,880 --> 01:33:25,000 Speaker 1: um doing something like even it was just like throwing 1698 01:33:25,080 --> 01:33:27,880 Speaker 1: up videos on YouTube, right or like going on. And 1699 01:33:28,160 --> 01:33:30,800 Speaker 1: that's that's less the case with the zoomers now because 1700 01:33:30,800 --> 01:33:33,360 Speaker 1: a lot of them got started on at things like 1701 01:33:33,360 --> 01:33:35,880 Speaker 1: like twitch, where the idea is to from the beginning 1702 01:33:35,920 --> 01:33:38,639 Speaker 1: be trying to monetize yourself and while you're like building 1703 01:33:38,640 --> 01:33:42,719 Speaker 1: a brand, you're constantly monetized. But that's a really recent change, 1704 01:33:42,760 --> 01:33:45,639 Speaker 1: and I actually I find it kind of unsettling because 1705 01:33:45,680 --> 01:33:48,280 Speaker 1: that was I don't know, it's a mix because I'm 1706 01:33:48,320 --> 01:33:50,840 Speaker 1: certainly not of the I'm not of the of the 1707 01:33:50,880 --> 01:33:53,040 Speaker 1: mind that like, if someone is asking you to do work, 1708 01:33:53,080 --> 01:33:55,120 Speaker 1: you should be getting paid for it. But if you 1709 01:33:55,160 --> 01:33:58,759 Speaker 1: are trying to if you are trying to like build 1710 01:33:58,760 --> 01:34:01,360 Speaker 1: a life as a creator, the best way to do 1711 01:34:01,400 --> 01:34:03,519 Speaker 1: that creatively is to just make the things that you 1712 01:34:03,560 --> 01:34:07,559 Speaker 1: think are cool and then make like if if other 1713 01:34:07,600 --> 01:34:10,120 Speaker 1: people like it, you make money. Like better things get 1714 01:34:10,200 --> 01:34:12,840 Speaker 1: made than that that like that that is the way 1715 01:34:12,880 --> 01:34:15,200 Speaker 1: the best art gets made. I think it's a few 1716 01:34:15,200 --> 01:34:18,000 Speaker 1: things going on here because like the way I think, 1717 01:34:18,120 --> 01:34:19,840 Speaker 1: like I think. Actually, the reason why he frames it 1718 01:34:19,880 --> 01:34:21,600 Speaker 1: this way is because he's trying to get back to 1719 01:34:21,960 --> 01:34:24,880 Speaker 1: his idea of freedom. Right. He describes like the golden 1720 01:34:24,920 --> 01:34:28,040 Speaker 1: age of the Internet being information flowing freely. He thinks 1721 01:34:28,080 --> 01:34:30,120 Speaker 1: that the blockchain is a new version of that. So 1722 01:34:30,160 --> 01:34:32,439 Speaker 1: that's why he's framing it in this way. The second 1723 01:34:32,520 --> 01:34:36,000 Speaker 1: thing is in terms of artists and creators. Um, if 1724 01:34:36,040 --> 01:34:37,800 Speaker 1: you think about like, yeah, like when like the when 1725 01:34:37,800 --> 01:34:40,439 Speaker 1: the early age of what he calls like the of 1726 01:34:40,479 --> 01:34:41,760 Speaker 1: what we we kind of all been refrained to it. 1727 01:34:41,840 --> 01:34:43,680 Speaker 1: Like the second area when like era of like when 1728 01:34:43,680 --> 01:34:47,439 Speaker 1: social media and like content creation like sites are a thing. 1729 01:34:47,600 --> 01:34:51,000 Speaker 1: That's like just use YouTube as an example. Um. Because 1730 01:34:51,080 --> 01:34:53,679 Speaker 1: there was a low saturation and content, it was easier 1731 01:34:53,720 --> 01:34:56,360 Speaker 1: for someone to rise up and gain a platform. Let's 1732 01:34:56,360 --> 01:34:58,240 Speaker 1: say someone like Bo Burnham right, who started as just 1733 01:34:58,280 --> 01:35:02,200 Speaker 1: a kid and now is like a very popular comedian. Um. 1734 01:35:02,240 --> 01:35:06,679 Speaker 1: But then YouTube instead of backing creators like that, um, 1735 01:35:06,720 --> 01:35:08,320 Speaker 1: which they did a little bit, but they did not 1736 01:35:08,439 --> 01:35:11,920 Speaker 1: as much. They instead started, uh. Like the thing that 1737 01:35:12,000 --> 01:35:16,800 Speaker 1: happened was like, uh, YouTube really incentivizing sharing like late 1738 01:35:16,920 --> 01:35:20,320 Speaker 1: night content and sharing like like TV clips of TV 1739 01:35:20,439 --> 01:35:23,920 Speaker 1: shows and like using like doing using legacy media on 1740 01:35:23,960 --> 01:35:26,240 Speaker 1: their platform. And that's the things they really backed. That's 1741 01:35:26,280 --> 01:35:28,120 Speaker 1: the things they really pushed into your feet. It's like 1742 01:35:28,280 --> 01:35:31,439 Speaker 1: tonight show clips. UM. So a lot of those original 1743 01:35:31,560 --> 01:35:34,120 Speaker 1: original content creators kind of got left behind and hour 1744 01:35:34,320 --> 01:35:36,080 Speaker 1: are now like just their own are running on their 1745 01:35:36,080 --> 01:35:38,759 Speaker 1: own personal brands, some of them use Patreon for example. 1746 01:35:39,120 --> 01:35:41,439 Speaker 1: But it's also it's impossible to do this now because 1747 01:35:41,439 --> 01:35:44,280 Speaker 1: there's an oversaturation of content. The only thing that's done 1748 01:35:44,280 --> 01:35:46,839 Speaker 1: this recently is TikTok because it was a brand new platform. 1749 01:35:47,000 --> 01:35:49,160 Speaker 1: There was again a new opportunity for a lot of 1750 01:35:49,240 --> 01:35:52,519 Speaker 1: kids to gain to gain a lot of audiences really quickly. 1751 01:35:52,720 --> 01:35:55,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I just I to based on what you're saying, 1752 01:35:55,400 --> 01:35:58,040 Speaker 1: I think that like TikTok is the closest to how 1753 01:35:59,560 --> 01:36:02,920 Speaker 1: couch it happened on the Internet before everything, because because 1754 01:36:02,920 --> 01:36:05,479 Speaker 1: it is like, you're not starting from like everyone starts. 1755 01:36:05,479 --> 01:36:07,240 Speaker 1: I guess knowing you could make money, but that was 1756 01:36:07,280 --> 01:36:09,200 Speaker 1: the same way you start because you're like you're doing 1757 01:36:09,200 --> 01:36:11,519 Speaker 1: a thing, and if that thing takes off, then there's 1758 01:36:11,520 --> 01:36:14,479 Speaker 1: ways to monetize and like that. Yeah, I think that's 1759 01:36:14,720 --> 01:36:17,479 Speaker 1: why probably white bar white is so popular. Generally, growth 1760 01:36:17,520 --> 01:36:21,080 Speaker 1: on TikTok is pretty Uh, it's pretty organic. It's not 1761 01:36:21,160 --> 01:36:23,960 Speaker 1: it's not it's not boosted by big brands, uh, the 1762 01:36:24,040 --> 01:36:26,479 Speaker 1: same way you know, stuff like YouTube is, and now 1763 01:36:26,520 --> 01:36:28,840 Speaker 1: it's probably gonna be edging in that direction. But it's 1764 01:36:28,880 --> 01:36:30,720 Speaker 1: it's it's it's not, it's it's not there yet. So 1765 01:36:31,320 --> 01:36:33,840 Speaker 1: and his argument in this is to get back to 1766 01:36:33,920 --> 01:36:36,760 Speaker 1: just being like a small content creator getting your stuff seen. 1767 01:36:37,240 --> 01:36:39,599 Speaker 1: His solution to this problem of like YouTube and stuff 1768 01:36:39,640 --> 01:36:43,000 Speaker 1: backing like these large like light night shows and back 1769 01:36:43,000 --> 01:36:45,960 Speaker 1: in these large like corporately funded things. His solution is 1770 01:36:45,960 --> 01:36:47,719 Speaker 1: that if you're a small if you're a small content creator, 1771 01:36:47,840 --> 01:36:51,280 Speaker 1: you should sell yourself as an asset to other people 1772 01:36:51,360 --> 01:36:53,880 Speaker 1: on the internet. Right, So, because like his his idea 1773 01:36:54,120 --> 01:36:56,440 Speaker 1: is that he wants to get rid of the gatekeepers 1774 01:36:56,439 --> 01:36:58,479 Speaker 1: of the Internet and go back to how the Internet was. 1775 01:36:58,760 --> 01:37:01,559 Speaker 1: But his solution for doing that is just by selling 1776 01:37:01,640 --> 01:37:04,920 Speaker 1: you as a person brand to other people on the 1777 01:37:04,960 --> 01:37:07,920 Speaker 1: Internet who are like tech bro investors. So that that's 1778 01:37:07,960 --> 01:37:10,400 Speaker 1: why it's framed this specific way. So I think when 1779 01:37:10,400 --> 01:37:12,280 Speaker 1: we're all are like talking about like, why does he 1780 01:37:12,320 --> 01:37:14,559 Speaker 1: describe it this way, what's all this weird stuff going on, 1781 01:37:14,680 --> 01:37:18,360 Speaker 1: It's because that's how he's rationalized in his brain, is 1782 01:37:18,680 --> 01:37:21,599 Speaker 1: for how what he thinks being a free artist is, 1783 01:37:22,040 --> 01:37:23,439 Speaker 1: and he thinks this is going to be the new 1784 01:37:23,479 --> 01:37:27,759 Speaker 1: method to get there. There's another important sort of macro 1785 01:37:28,000 --> 01:37:30,559 Speaker 1: thing to think about this year, which is that the 1786 01:37:30,640 --> 01:37:33,480 Speaker 1: underlying basis of all of this right is the assumption 1787 01:37:33,640 --> 01:37:37,240 Speaker 1: that everyone is an entrepreneur, is that you know, like 1788 01:37:37,240 --> 01:37:39,320 Speaker 1: every everyone is doing all of their stuff at all 1789 01:37:39,360 --> 01:37:41,000 Speaker 1: times because they want, you know, in order to be 1790 01:37:41,040 --> 01:37:45,000 Speaker 1: a business owner. And this has been like you know this, 1791 01:37:44,720 --> 01:37:47,960 Speaker 1: this has been the great ideological victory of the right 1792 01:37:48,040 --> 01:37:50,599 Speaker 1: in the last fifty years, is that they convinced everyone 1793 01:37:51,240 --> 01:37:54,519 Speaker 1: that like every single person is you know, like you're 1794 01:37:54,920 --> 01:37:57,519 Speaker 1: stime temporary embarrassed Millonariy syndrome. It's like even people who 1795 01:37:57,720 --> 01:38:01,800 Speaker 1: are working jobs, right, like working wage labor jobs, think 1796 01:38:01,840 --> 01:38:04,400 Speaker 1: of themselves as you know, content creators. And a content creator, 1797 01:38:04,439 --> 01:38:07,559 Speaker 1: you know, is a small business owner. And this has 1798 01:38:07,720 --> 01:38:10,280 Speaker 1: an immensely coercive while I'll a coerse or two, but 1799 01:38:10,320 --> 01:38:13,640 Speaker 1: corrosive effect on you know, anyone working together to do 1800 01:38:13,720 --> 01:38:16,800 Speaker 1: something because you know, oh, you're not you're not you're 1801 01:38:16,840 --> 01:38:19,240 Speaker 1: not a worker, You're just like you're a content creator, 1802 01:38:19,320 --> 01:38:22,080 Speaker 1: You're you know, you're a small business owner. You're like 1803 01:38:22,600 --> 01:38:26,400 Speaker 1: you know, you what and and and that's you know this, 1804 01:38:26,400 --> 01:38:29,439 Speaker 1: This is a very long running thing that once of 1805 01:38:29,439 --> 01:38:32,559 Speaker 1: incredibly powerical people have been trying to do really since 1806 01:38:32,680 --> 01:38:37,839 Speaker 1: like i mean arguably like the thirties, but the complete 1807 01:38:37,880 --> 01:38:39,800 Speaker 1: success of that and the way that you know, they're 1808 01:38:39,840 --> 01:38:41,960 Speaker 1: they're they're selling exactly the same thing that they were 1809 01:38:42,000 --> 01:38:45,920 Speaker 1: selling in like the eighties, but now it's this like, 1810 01:38:46,120 --> 01:38:47,360 Speaker 1: you know, you're trying to get people to do it 1811 01:38:47,360 --> 01:38:49,680 Speaker 1: to themselves. And also they throw all of this like 1812 01:38:50,040 --> 01:38:54,240 Speaker 1: sort of nonsense tech jargon at you to get you 1813 01:38:54,280 --> 01:38:56,240 Speaker 1: to sort of like stop looking at the fact that 1814 01:38:56,280 --> 01:38:59,000 Speaker 1: this is just sort of you know, this is this 1815 01:38:59,080 --> 01:39:03,080 Speaker 1: is this is just the the new, even worse version 1816 01:39:03,320 --> 01:39:06,479 Speaker 1: of everyone being a worker who thinks that they're like, 1817 01:39:07,720 --> 01:39:10,360 Speaker 1: you know, also going to be a SMO this owner someday. Yeah. 1818 01:39:10,680 --> 01:39:12,600 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't have anything else really to 1819 01:39:12,640 --> 01:39:15,240 Speaker 1: say about it other than this, but like, I mean, 1820 01:39:15,240 --> 01:39:17,360 Speaker 1: this was a good amount to say. I just think 1821 01:39:17,400 --> 01:39:21,479 Speaker 1: this is so I think it's such an example of 1822 01:39:21,560 --> 01:39:23,479 Speaker 1: kind of the way in which the worst people in 1823 01:39:23,479 --> 01:39:25,800 Speaker 1: the world are trying to steer the internet, um, and 1824 01:39:25,840 --> 01:39:29,559 Speaker 1: by steering the Internet, steer the soul of like the 1825 01:39:29,640 --> 01:39:33,080 Speaker 1: human race. Um. Like this is a vision of the 1826 01:39:33,120 --> 01:39:35,360 Speaker 1: future this guy is sharing. And this article that I 1827 01:39:35,560 --> 01:39:39,160 Speaker 1: isn't isn't positioning itself as radical, but includes some like 1828 01:39:39,479 --> 01:39:42,080 Speaker 1: deeply radical ideas about how the world should go. And 1829 01:39:42,120 --> 01:39:44,040 Speaker 1: by the way, I should also note that he's also 1830 01:39:44,160 --> 01:39:46,320 Speaker 1: just like blatantly wrong every time he brings up a 1831 01:39:46,400 --> 01:39:49,160 Speaker 1: number UM like he taught he he points out in 1832 01:39:49,160 --> 01:39:53,040 Speaker 1: this article that forty six million Americans own cryptocurrency. The 1833 01:39:53,080 --> 01:39:55,559 Speaker 1: real number is more likely about one million kind of 1834 01:39:55,560 --> 01:39:57,720 Speaker 1: it at most, like by every credible I have no 1835 01:39:57,800 --> 01:40:01,880 Speaker 1: idea where he's getting forty six milli in Americans own cryptocurrency. 1836 01:40:02,200 --> 01:40:05,920 Speaker 1: And again, the stat just came out, and that's part 1837 01:40:05,920 --> 01:40:08,720 Speaker 1: of his argument is that like, obviously people love the 1838 01:40:08,760 --> 01:40:11,040 Speaker 1: blockchain and these tokens, and like this is this is 1839 01:40:11,080 --> 01:40:14,599 Speaker 1: inevitably going to get more and more popular um and 1840 01:40:14,600 --> 01:40:17,120 Speaker 1: when again, the reality is that every real thing that's 1841 01:40:17,160 --> 01:40:20,400 Speaker 1: happening on the on the blockchain is pretty much versions 1842 01:40:20,439 --> 01:40:22,839 Speaker 1: of a security scam that the government has just announced 1843 01:40:22,840 --> 01:40:25,800 Speaker 1: they're going to finally start regulating. But yeah, I wanna 1844 01:40:26,120 --> 01:40:28,240 Speaker 1: so that the stat the study that just came out 1845 01:40:28,280 --> 01:40:31,320 Speaker 1: today was that analysis of six point one million trades 1846 01:40:31,360 --> 01:40:33,640 Speaker 1: of like four point seven million n f t s. 1847 01:40:34,040 --> 01:40:36,280 Speaker 1: It shows that the top ten percent of traders were 1848 01:40:36,320 --> 01:40:40,960 Speaker 1: responsible for of trading UM, which again is more evidence 1849 01:40:41,040 --> 01:40:44,720 Speaker 1: that all that's happening is people boosting prices also the average, 1850 01:40:45,000 --> 01:40:47,960 Speaker 1: the vast majority, like more of an FT sales are 1851 01:40:48,000 --> 01:40:49,880 Speaker 1: for less than two hundred dollars. Some of them are 1852 01:40:49,920 --> 01:40:53,120 Speaker 1: for just pennies. Like what the stuff that you're hearing 1853 01:40:53,160 --> 01:40:58,360 Speaker 1: about is all ridiculous outliers, and its outliers specifically because 1854 01:40:58,360 --> 01:41:00,680 Speaker 1: people are pumping stuff up in order to try to 1855 01:41:00,720 --> 01:41:03,680 Speaker 1: call on someone um. And that's the whole basis of 1856 01:41:03,720 --> 01:41:07,839 Speaker 1: this guy's the structural argument, the reason that he's attempting 1857 01:41:07,880 --> 01:41:11,400 Speaker 1: to argue that like there's actually desire here and that 1858 01:41:11,520 --> 01:41:13,439 Speaker 1: this is in fact the future of the Internet is 1859 01:41:13,479 --> 01:41:17,400 Speaker 1: based entirely upon like numbers that are either bad or 1860 01:41:17,439 --> 01:41:22,240 Speaker 1: he's or he's deliberately using he's deliberately lying about the 1861 01:41:22,320 --> 01:41:25,439 Speaker 1: numbers because there is no credible number evidence I've ever 1862 01:41:25,479 --> 01:41:29,040 Speaker 1: heard that forty six million Americans currently owned cryptocurrency or 1863 01:41:29,080 --> 01:41:32,559 Speaker 1: even have ever owned cryptocurrency. Yeah, and I think the 1864 01:41:32,600 --> 01:41:34,360 Speaker 1: other kind of nail on the coffin for this idea 1865 01:41:34,400 --> 01:41:35,920 Speaker 1: and why I don't think it's going to catch on 1866 01:41:36,000 --> 01:41:37,920 Speaker 1: the same way these guys think it think it does. 1867 01:41:38,000 --> 01:41:40,320 Speaker 1: And this is something he acknowledges in the article, is 1868 01:41:40,360 --> 01:41:43,280 Speaker 1: like not a lot of people know how the stockic 1869 01:41:43,400 --> 01:41:46,000 Speaker 1: change works, Like very like he he says, I think 1870 01:41:46,000 --> 01:41:48,080 Speaker 1: it's like I don't know, like he I forget that 1871 01:41:48,120 --> 01:41:50,720 Speaker 1: what number he says, but um, but he says like 1872 01:41:50,760 --> 01:41:53,160 Speaker 1: not not tons of people actually use or know what 1873 01:41:53,160 --> 01:41:57,320 Speaker 1: the stockic stockic changes. Um. And the reason why Patreon 1874 01:41:57,439 --> 01:41:59,800 Speaker 1: was so successful and why it's so useful for content 1875 01:42:00,000 --> 01:42:02,160 Speaker 1: it is because it's a very intuitive system. It's very 1876 01:42:02,160 --> 01:42:04,439 Speaker 1: clear how it works, it's clear what you're doing. There's 1877 01:42:04,479 --> 01:42:06,519 Speaker 1: no really questions about where your money is going or 1878 01:42:06,560 --> 01:42:09,120 Speaker 1: what's happening this. I don't think this is ever I 1879 01:42:09,120 --> 01:42:10,840 Speaker 1: don't think this whole personal investment thing is ever going 1880 01:42:10,880 --> 01:42:13,600 Speaker 1: to actually go off because people don't understand what the 1881 01:42:13,600 --> 01:42:15,600 Speaker 1: blockchain is and it's too much work to explain it 1882 01:42:15,600 --> 01:42:18,559 Speaker 1: to them. Um. And just because of how much work 1883 01:42:18,600 --> 01:42:20,479 Speaker 1: it is to wrap your mind around, like so where 1884 01:42:20,520 --> 01:42:22,559 Speaker 1: is my money going? What do I have to set up? 1885 01:42:22,600 --> 01:42:24,559 Speaker 1: How does that work? That's way too much of a headache. 1886 01:42:24,640 --> 01:42:26,400 Speaker 1: Because in order for this to actually work, you need 1887 01:42:26,560 --> 01:42:28,840 Speaker 1: this to break out of the tech bro bubble or 1888 01:42:28,840 --> 01:42:31,479 Speaker 1: else this is just gonna be this small tech brow 1889 01:42:31,560 --> 01:42:33,720 Speaker 1: thing of people handing over the same one dollars to 1890 01:42:33,720 --> 01:42:36,120 Speaker 1: all their friends in a circle. Um, which is what 1891 01:42:36,160 --> 01:42:38,760 Speaker 1: it is currently, and I in order to break out 1892 01:42:38,760 --> 01:42:41,439 Speaker 1: of that circle, they need to get you know, your 1893 01:42:41,479 --> 01:42:44,720 Speaker 1: grandmother to learn what crypto is and how blockchains work. 1894 01:42:45,240 --> 01:42:47,800 Speaker 1: And that's not gonna happen. Um. So I think that 1895 01:42:47,880 --> 01:42:49,360 Speaker 1: is the one other nail in the coffin for this 1896 01:42:49,400 --> 01:42:53,000 Speaker 1: type of idea is like Patreon is easy, Patreon makes sense. 1897 01:42:53,160 --> 01:42:56,640 Speaker 1: This thing it is not nearly as intuitive for supporting 1898 01:42:56,800 --> 01:43:00,000 Speaker 1: a YouTuber you like, yeah, oh, okay, cool. I actually 1899 01:43:00,120 --> 01:43:03,360 Speaker 1: found evidence on where that forty six million Americans number 1900 01:43:03,400 --> 01:43:06,360 Speaker 1: comes from. Yeah, so basically number one. I found like 1901 01:43:06,680 --> 01:43:09,200 Speaker 1: a fucking crypto news source pointing out that, like when 1902 01:43:10,240 --> 01:43:13,320 Speaker 1: people started tweeting that forty six million Americans is based 1903 01:43:13,320 --> 01:43:14,920 Speaker 1: on a study we'll talk about a second, but like 1904 01:43:14,960 --> 01:43:18,000 Speaker 1: when people started tweeting about this, like the immediate response 1905 01:43:18,320 --> 01:43:22,800 Speaker 1: in the bitcoin subredit was like, well, that's not fucking possible. Uh. 1906 01:43:22,920 --> 01:43:25,559 Speaker 1: Like one of the people in the bitcoin subred it said, 1907 01:43:25,600 --> 01:43:27,639 Speaker 1: sounds very high. I don't know a single person who 1908 01:43:27,640 --> 01:43:29,960 Speaker 1: owns it. And this says woman, six or seven people 1909 01:43:30,000 --> 01:43:34,519 Speaker 1: own it. Yeah, And and it comes from a study 1910 01:43:34,560 --> 01:43:38,599 Speaker 1: conducted in January by the New York Digital Investment Group 1911 01:43:39,320 --> 01:43:43,760 Speaker 1: servying a thousand participants with incomes over fifty dollars, so 1912 01:43:44,960 --> 01:43:49,599 Speaker 1: that that seems valid. Wait, they just said it's over 1913 01:43:49,720 --> 01:43:53,880 Speaker 1: fifty This is okay, this method, Yeah, this this method. 1914 01:43:53,920 --> 01:43:55,719 Speaker 1: You will get a few like Pew released to studies 1915 01:43:55,760 --> 01:43:59,439 Speaker 1: suggesting that like six of Americans have used cryptocurrency at 1916 01:43:59,439 --> 01:44:02,439 Speaker 1: some point, and like all of what's coming out as 1917 01:44:02,520 --> 01:44:06,080 Speaker 1: kind of sketchy, all of the data. There's like reasons 1918 01:44:06,120 --> 01:44:08,160 Speaker 1: to be kind of unsettled about it. But also like 1919 01:44:08,720 --> 01:44:10,280 Speaker 1: one of the things that you studies showed is that 1920 01:44:10,320 --> 01:44:14,000 Speaker 1: the vast majority of Americans have heard of cryptocurrency, uh, 1921 01:44:14,040 --> 01:44:17,920 Speaker 1: and most haven't used it, Like the vast majority have 1922 01:44:18,080 --> 01:44:21,160 Speaker 1: not chosen to get involved. Like, however accurate you think 1923 01:44:21,200 --> 01:44:24,040 Speaker 1: this is? Like there's another article coming out that says 1924 01:44:24,240 --> 01:44:26,040 Speaker 1: that came out and I guess May of this year. 1925 01:44:26,120 --> 01:44:29,479 Speaker 1: That's said that's based on a Gemini study, which is 1926 01:44:29,520 --> 01:44:32,400 Speaker 1: Gemini is a crypto exchange that over fifty million Americans 1927 01:44:32,479 --> 01:44:35,560 Speaker 1: are likely to buy crypto in the next year, um, 1928 01:44:35,600 --> 01:44:38,720 Speaker 1: which doesn't seem to have happened. Uh, Like I I 1929 01:44:38,760 --> 01:44:41,639 Speaker 1: just don't see. There's all sorts of like weird little 1930 01:44:41,640 --> 01:44:46,160 Speaker 1: studies commissioned to buy weird little groups. But it really doesn't. 1931 01:44:46,200 --> 01:44:49,479 Speaker 1: It seems like it's it's again kind of part of 1932 01:44:49,479 --> 01:44:52,040 Speaker 1: the grift. Like I'm not seeing a lot of rigor 1933 01:44:52,120 --> 01:44:56,200 Speaker 1: in any of this um anyway, whatever, We've talked enough 1934 01:44:56,240 --> 01:44:58,960 Speaker 1: about this ship. I just I think we all as 1935 01:44:59,000 --> 01:45:00,680 Speaker 1: soon as we read the article, well we're so like 1936 01:45:00,880 --> 01:45:03,040 Speaker 1: appalled by it that what we should probably we talk 1937 01:45:03,080 --> 01:45:19,519 Speaker 1: about this for forty five minutes. Yeah, welcome to It 1938 01:45:19,520 --> 01:45:22,120 Speaker 1: Could Happen Here, a podcast about how society is following 1939 01:45:22,160 --> 01:45:24,799 Speaker 1: apart and about how to put it back together again. 1940 01:45:25,120 --> 01:45:28,040 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Christopher Long and Today and for the 1941 01:45:28,040 --> 01:45:31,720 Speaker 1: next few days, we're doing something a bit different. We're 1942 01:45:31,760 --> 01:45:33,320 Speaker 1: going to take a deep dive too some of the 1943 01:45:33,360 --> 01:45:36,360 Speaker 1: people who got us into the mess we're in today. Now. 1944 01:45:36,880 --> 01:45:39,040 Speaker 1: When we've talked about our enemies and it could Happen here, 1945 01:45:39,040 --> 01:45:42,600 Speaker 1: we've mostly focused on fascism, and for good reason. But 1946 01:45:42,680 --> 01:45:45,280 Speaker 1: for the next few days we're focusing on a different enemy. 1947 01:45:45,880 --> 01:45:52,080 Speaker 1: Don't worry, the Nazis will show up. That enemy is neoliberalism. 1948 01:45:52,120 --> 01:45:54,840 Speaker 1: New liberalism is the single most successful political movement of 1949 01:45:54,840 --> 01:45:58,679 Speaker 1: the twenty centuries. No other political movement in human history 1950 01:45:58,680 --> 01:46:02,360 Speaker 1: has directly controlled so much of the globe. It is outmaneuvered, outlasted, 1951 01:46:02,439 --> 01:46:05,120 Speaker 1: or simply destroyed every ideology that sought to oppose it, 1952 01:46:05,640 --> 01:46:10,599 Speaker 1: and has reigned virtually unchallenged for fifty years. After exploded 1953 01:46:10,640 --> 01:46:13,800 Speaker 1: on the political scene in Chili, their victory has been 1954 01:46:13,840 --> 01:46:16,320 Speaker 1: so total that even the earthWhile opponents have adopted its 1955 01:46:16,320 --> 01:46:20,840 Speaker 1: core principles. Margaret Thatcher famously bragged that her proudest accomplishment 1956 01:46:20,880 --> 01:46:24,080 Speaker 1: was creating Tony Blair, basking in the irony that neoliberalism 1957 01:46:24,120 --> 01:46:26,519 Speaker 1: would be implemented across the globe, in large part by 1958 01:46:26,600 --> 01:46:31,160 Speaker 1: labor and socialist parties. Today, even erstwhile communist countries maintained 1959 01:46:31,200 --> 01:46:35,040 Speaker 1: so called special economic zones with the laws of neoliberalism 1960 01:46:35,120 --> 01:46:37,960 Speaker 1: are allowed to run rampant in exchange for GDP increases, 1961 01:46:38,360 --> 01:46:40,360 Speaker 1: and their communist supporters in the West have come to 1962 01:46:40,439 --> 01:46:43,720 Speaker 1: belief that capitalism is a far more powerful engine of 1963 01:46:43,720 --> 01:46:47,320 Speaker 1: economic development and the state planning advocated by their forebearers, 1964 01:46:47,760 --> 01:46:50,760 Speaker 1: thus internalizing the greatest principle of neoliberalism even as they 1965 01:46:50,760 --> 01:46:54,519 Speaker 1: clan to oppose it. All of this, of course, raises 1966 01:46:54,560 --> 01:46:58,800 Speaker 1: two questions, what actually is neoliberalism and how did it 1967 01:46:58,840 --> 01:47:02,000 Speaker 1: come to rule the world today. We're going to try 1968 01:47:02,000 --> 01:47:04,519 Speaker 1: to answer the first question by looking back at the 1969 01:47:04,520 --> 01:47:09,000 Speaker 1: original neoliberals and examining what they believed, because it's not 1970 01:47:09,040 --> 01:47:11,719 Speaker 1: what you think. There are many places you can begin 1971 01:47:11,760 --> 01:47:16,720 Speaker 1: the story of neoliberalism. I'm choosing to start in France ninety. Now, 1972 01:47:16,840 --> 01:47:19,160 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties are a bad time to be a 1973 01:47:19,200 --> 01:47:22,000 Speaker 1: free trade market liberal. And just to clear this up, 1974 01:47:22,000 --> 01:47:24,960 Speaker 1: early liberal in the European context, which is where a 1975 01:47:24,960 --> 01:47:26,800 Speaker 1: lot of the beginning of the story takes place, does 1976 01:47:26,800 --> 01:47:28,080 Speaker 1: not mean the same thing as it does in the 1977 01:47:28,080 --> 01:47:31,800 Speaker 1: American context. European liberalism up to this point is about 1978 01:47:31,840 --> 01:47:35,080 Speaker 1: free trade markets, individual liberty and rights, etcetera, etcetera. But 1979 01:47:35,080 --> 01:47:39,960 Speaker 1: it's anti state interference. To be somewhat reductive, It's kind 1980 01:47:40,000 --> 01:47:42,840 Speaker 1: of closer to what conservatism is in the US, but 1981 01:47:42,960 --> 01:47:46,280 Speaker 1: it's not identical. So here that in mind. As the 1982 01:47:46,320 --> 01:47:49,640 Speaker 1: story goes on, dirties saw the rise of fascism and 1983 01:47:49,640 --> 01:47:52,559 Speaker 1: social democracy and communism, each with his own form of 1984 01:47:52,600 --> 01:47:57,280 Speaker 1: government spending and economic planning, which liberals absolutely detested. Now 1985 01:47:57,360 --> 01:48:00,280 Speaker 1: the thirties have been full of liberals gathered you try 1986 01:48:00,320 --> 01:48:02,559 Speaker 1: to figure out what to do next. In in in seven, 1987 01:48:02,680 --> 01:48:06,000 Speaker 1: Walter Lippmann, an American writer who would become most famous 1988 01:48:06,000 --> 01:48:09,479 Speaker 1: for inventing the term cold war, wrote a book called 1989 01:48:09,560 --> 01:48:12,519 Speaker 1: an Inquiry into the Principles of the Good Society, which 1990 01:48:12,600 --> 01:48:15,760 Speaker 1: argued that totalitarianism is a product of not having individual 1991 01:48:15,800 --> 01:48:18,040 Speaker 1: private property at the state needs to be limited to 1992 01:48:18,040 --> 01:48:20,920 Speaker 1: a ministering justice and not you know, giving people things 1993 01:48:20,920 --> 01:48:23,720 Speaker 1: that they need. And so a lot of liberals read 1994 01:48:23,760 --> 01:48:26,519 Speaker 1: this and go, oh cool, we should organize a conference 1995 01:48:26,520 --> 01:48:28,680 Speaker 1: to talk about this book and our ideas. And the 1996 01:48:28,680 --> 01:48:32,680 Speaker 1: product is in et Litman colloquium. Now, a bunch of 1997 01:48:32,720 --> 01:48:35,479 Speaker 1: extremely important near liberals show up at this conference, including 1998 01:48:35,920 --> 01:48:40,840 Speaker 1: one Friedrich August von Hayek, Ludwig von Mises, Wilhelm rope Ki, 1999 01:48:41,000 --> 01:48:44,960 Speaker 1: and Alexander Rusto, and they start talking about the need 2000 01:48:45,000 --> 01:48:48,760 Speaker 1: for a new kind of liberalism to oppose communism, Kanadianism, fascism, 2001 01:48:48,760 --> 01:48:52,479 Speaker 1: and what they call Manchester or Las Fair liberalism, in 2002 01:48:52,560 --> 01:48:55,320 Speaker 1: which the state didn't do defeat it all in political 2003 01:48:55,400 --> 01:48:58,800 Speaker 1: life and let the economy run an autopilot. Now, the 2004 01:48:58,840 --> 01:49:02,200 Speaker 1: German sociologist Alexander Rousteau, who we're going to talk about 2005 01:49:02,240 --> 01:49:05,320 Speaker 1: more in a second comes up with the term neo 2006 01:49:05,400 --> 01:49:08,000 Speaker 1: liberalism to define the new set of principles that they're 2007 01:49:08,000 --> 01:49:12,080 Speaker 1: trying to develop, and they think the new liberalism should 2008 01:49:12,439 --> 01:49:16,240 Speaker 1: prioritize the price mechanism, free enterprise, the system of competition, 2009 01:49:16,360 --> 01:49:20,840 Speaker 1: and importantly, a strong and impartial state. Now this is 2010 01:49:20,880 --> 01:49:23,760 Speaker 1: the origin of new liberalism as a term. And it's 2011 01:49:23,760 --> 01:49:27,000 Speaker 1: important to understand two things from the outset, because the 2012 01:49:27,040 --> 01:49:29,280 Speaker 1: new liberals are going to spend the next fifty years 2013 01:49:29,360 --> 01:49:33,519 Speaker 1: lying about this. One. Near liberalism favors a strong state 2014 01:49:33,560 --> 01:49:36,800 Speaker 1: to make the market work. And to new liberalism is 2015 01:49:36,840 --> 01:49:41,240 Speaker 1: not the same thing as classical liberalism. Now, new liberals 2016 01:49:41,680 --> 01:49:44,479 Speaker 1: essentially invented the whole I make classical liberal thing in 2017 01:49:44,520 --> 01:49:47,200 Speaker 1: the fifties. But if you read the original stuff that 2018 01:49:47,240 --> 01:49:49,280 Speaker 1: they wrote, if you if you go back to nineties, 2019 01:49:49,320 --> 01:49:51,040 Speaker 1: if you go back to nineteen thirties, and you read 2020 01:49:51,080 --> 01:49:53,640 Speaker 1: what they write, the new liberals are extremely clear that 2021 01:49:53,640 --> 01:49:56,200 Speaker 1: they are not classical liberals and that in fact their 2022 01:49:56,200 --> 01:50:00,280 Speaker 1: political project is different from the twentieth century nineteenth entree 2023 01:50:00,439 --> 01:50:03,040 Speaker 1: liberal project, in which the state is supposed to be 2024 01:50:03,080 --> 01:50:05,439 Speaker 1: a night watchman and not actually interfere in the markets 2025 01:50:05,439 --> 01:50:09,360 Speaker 1: at all. The neoliberals, originally before they you know, start 2026 01:50:09,439 --> 01:50:13,400 Speaker 1: lying about their actual origins, reject this principle and come 2027 01:50:13,479 --> 01:50:16,040 Speaker 1: to believe that, in fact, a strong state is necessary 2028 01:50:16,200 --> 01:50:20,400 Speaker 1: to ensure that markets work. So now you have Lenar 2029 01:50:20,439 --> 01:50:25,360 Speaker 1: liberalism as a thing, but nothing really happens much until 2030 01:50:25,400 --> 01:50:28,120 Speaker 1: after World War two because world were to almost everyone 2031 01:50:28,240 --> 01:50:31,080 Speaker 1: is just doing state economic planning. And so, you know, 2032 01:50:31,240 --> 01:50:33,960 Speaker 1: all of these people rambling off to the side about how, oh, 2033 01:50:34,080 --> 01:50:37,600 Speaker 1: the market is the most efficient way to plan a system. 2034 01:50:37,720 --> 01:50:40,320 Speaker 1: Nobody listens to them because they're fighting a war, and 2035 01:50:40,360 --> 01:50:43,400 Speaker 1: the way you fight wars is doing state planning. And 2036 01:50:43,479 --> 01:50:45,599 Speaker 1: after a world war to the situation for new liberals 2037 01:50:45,680 --> 01:50:48,559 Speaker 1: is even worse because having you know, gone through the 2038 01:50:48,600 --> 01:50:54,479 Speaker 1: experience of entire society is turning their entire economies and 2039 01:50:54,520 --> 01:50:58,200 Speaker 1: systems into planning agencies in order to you know, mobilize 2040 01:50:58,200 --> 01:51:01,200 Speaker 1: the total war effort. People will after the war come 2041 01:51:01,240 --> 01:51:02,680 Speaker 1: back and go, oh, hey, we can do this to 2042 01:51:02,720 --> 01:51:05,839 Speaker 1: other parts of the economy. So this means that everyone, 2043 01:51:05,960 --> 01:51:07,760 Speaker 1: and this is not just the communist states, this is 2044 01:51:07,880 --> 01:51:11,080 Speaker 1: you know, this is Britain is doing Kanesianism. They're doing planning, 2045 01:51:11,120 --> 01:51:15,240 Speaker 1: they're doing state welfare programs, and the New Deal is 2046 01:51:15,240 --> 01:51:18,479 Speaker 1: spreading also across the globe. Now in response to all 2047 01:51:18,520 --> 01:51:22,760 Speaker 1: of this, Hiak and his allies do two things. The 2048 01:51:22,840 --> 01:51:26,479 Speaker 1: first is found in the Chicago School of Economics, and 2049 01:51:26,560 --> 01:51:29,559 Speaker 1: the second is to assemble the avengers of taking food 2050 01:51:29,600 --> 01:51:34,240 Speaker 1: from children. The mont Pelion Society. The mont Pellion Society 2051 01:51:34,400 --> 01:51:38,280 Speaker 1: is the central neoliberal institution, which is a weird thing 2052 01:51:38,400 --> 01:51:40,439 Speaker 1: because in a lot of ways it's essentially just a 2053 01:51:40,479 --> 01:51:43,479 Speaker 1: closeted debate society intended to allow Neiler both to work 2054 01:51:43,520 --> 01:51:47,720 Speaker 1: out their political principles behind closed doors. Now, at this 2055 01:51:47,800 --> 01:51:50,400 Speaker 1: first meeting in n a lot of the people from 2056 01:51:50,439 --> 01:51:54,320 Speaker 1: the Littman Colloquium are there, but unfortunately some of the 2057 01:51:54,320 --> 01:51:56,920 Speaker 1: French members of the Colloquium and some of the people 2058 01:51:56,960 --> 01:52:01,559 Speaker 1: from Germany had collaborated with the Nazis, so they were out. 2059 01:52:02,080 --> 01:52:04,599 Speaker 1: And this meant that High I get defined new people 2060 01:52:04,640 --> 01:52:08,040 Speaker 1: to bring in. And the mont Peleion Society's first meeting 2061 01:52:08,120 --> 01:52:10,479 Speaker 1: is the first time you actually have all three major 2062 01:52:10,479 --> 01:52:12,680 Speaker 1: schools of neoliberal thought in the same place at the 2063 01:52:12,720 --> 01:52:16,400 Speaker 1: same time, arguing with each other. And they can't agree 2064 01:52:16,400 --> 01:52:19,639 Speaker 1: on shit. The only thing they can actually agree on 2065 01:52:20,200 --> 01:52:23,840 Speaker 1: is to look into more stuff and to get a 2066 01:52:23,880 --> 01:52:28,080 Speaker 1: sense of how far away from moderate neoliberalism. The arguments 2067 01:52:28,080 --> 01:52:30,960 Speaker 1: that are being had at the Montpellion Society are The 2068 01:52:30,960 --> 01:52:35,280 Speaker 1: Montpellion Society has only ever once actually released a single 2069 01:52:35,360 --> 01:52:39,240 Speaker 1: statement stating its principles. And this statement was the only 2070 01:52:39,240 --> 01:52:41,360 Speaker 1: thing that could be agreed on at the first meeting 2071 01:52:41,400 --> 01:52:43,240 Speaker 1: of the Montpellion Society. And I'm just gonna read it. 2072 01:52:43,960 --> 01:52:48,200 Speaker 1: This is what they agreed to research. One the analysis 2073 01:52:48,200 --> 01:52:50,759 Speaker 1: and explanation of the present crisis so as to reflect 2074 01:52:50,800 --> 01:52:55,439 Speaker 1: its essential moral and economic origins. Two the redefinition of 2075 01:52:55,479 --> 01:52:58,080 Speaker 1: the state's functions so as to distinguish more clearly between 2076 01:52:58,120 --> 01:53:02,680 Speaker 1: the totalitarian and liberal order. Three methods of re establishing 2077 01:53:02,720 --> 01:53:05,680 Speaker 1: the rule of law and assuring its developments that individuals 2078 01:53:05,680 --> 01:53:07,800 Speaker 1: and groups are not in a position to encroach upon 2079 01:53:07,840 --> 01:53:10,960 Speaker 1: the freedom of others and private property rights are not 2080 01:53:11,040 --> 01:53:15,240 Speaker 1: allowed to become a basis of predatory power. Four the 2081 01:53:15,320 --> 01:53:19,360 Speaker 1: possibility of establishing minimum standards by means not inimical to 2082 01:53:19,520 --> 01:53:23,519 Speaker 1: initiative and the functioning of the market. Five Methods of 2083 01:53:23,560 --> 01:53:26,400 Speaker 1: combating the misuse of history for the furtherance of creeds, 2084 01:53:26,400 --> 01:53:30,840 Speaker 1: hostiles liberty. Six The problem of creating an international order 2085 01:53:30,840 --> 01:53:33,880 Speaker 1: conductive to safeguarding of peace and liberty and permitting the 2086 01:53:33,960 --> 01:53:38,160 Speaker 1: establishment of harmonious international economic relations. You know, just by 2087 01:53:38,160 --> 01:53:40,720 Speaker 1: looking at this you can immediately see signs of how 2088 01:53:40,760 --> 01:53:44,200 Speaker 1: far things are going to move. I mean, you know what, 2089 01:53:44,320 --> 01:53:46,200 Speaker 1: one of one of the things that they're talking about 2090 01:53:46,320 --> 01:53:49,080 Speaker 1: is again they're trying to research whether or not it's 2091 01:53:49,080 --> 01:53:53,000 Speaker 1: possible to just give people things without the markets. And 2092 01:53:53,640 --> 01:53:55,840 Speaker 1: it's it's it's not just the sort of left quote 2093 01:53:55,880 --> 01:53:57,920 Speaker 1: unquote wing of the neoliberals who are arguing about this. 2094 01:53:58,400 --> 01:54:01,240 Speaker 1: Hyek in In will be his most famous book, The 2095 01:54:01,280 --> 01:54:03,600 Speaker 1: Road to Serve Them, I mean explicitly says, yeah, you 2096 01:54:03,600 --> 01:54:07,200 Speaker 1: should just give people food and housing and stuff outside 2097 01:54:07,240 --> 01:54:11,320 Speaker 1: of the market. And you know, like today, if literally 2098 01:54:11,320 --> 01:54:13,640 Speaker 1: anyone who says this will be accused of socialism. This 2099 01:54:13,720 --> 01:54:15,720 Speaker 1: is the neoliberal This is, you know, a large part 2100 01:54:15,760 --> 01:54:22,240 Speaker 1: of the neoliberal position in now. I've mentioned briefly that 2101 01:54:22,280 --> 01:54:25,080 Speaker 1: there are three schools of neoliberalism, and we're going to 2102 01:54:25,120 --> 01:54:27,200 Speaker 1: spend some time looking at them because people have a 2103 01:54:27,240 --> 01:54:31,040 Speaker 1: tendency to look at neoliberalism and assume that, oh, it's 2104 01:54:31,120 --> 01:54:34,400 Speaker 1: it's it's just the Chicago School of Economics, you know, 2105 01:54:34,480 --> 01:54:36,920 Speaker 1: which is the the neo classical schools most famous members 2106 01:54:36,920 --> 01:54:41,240 Speaker 1: Melton Friedman and It's true that that's Chicago School are neoliberals, 2107 01:54:41,280 --> 01:54:45,040 Speaker 1: but and and this is critical, there's other intellectual schools 2108 01:54:45,040 --> 01:54:49,160 Speaker 1: involved in here. And it's not just it's not just economists. 2109 01:54:49,240 --> 01:54:53,040 Speaker 1: Neoliberalism from the beginning is a multi disciplinary international project. 2110 01:54:53,280 --> 01:54:55,600 Speaker 1: You have lawyers, you have political scientists, you have journalists, 2111 01:54:55,600 --> 01:54:59,880 Speaker 1: you have philosophers, you have anthropologists. And the product of 2112 01:55:00,040 --> 01:55:02,680 Speaker 1: this is something is an ideology and a philosophy that 2113 01:55:02,760 --> 01:55:06,400 Speaker 1: is much deeper, much richer, and much more dangerous than 2114 01:55:06,440 --> 01:55:09,560 Speaker 1: just Chicago School alone. The second of the major schools 2115 01:55:09,600 --> 01:55:12,880 Speaker 1: is the Austrian School, which is led by Ludokfung Mesas 2116 01:55:12,920 --> 01:55:17,840 Speaker 1: and Hyak and maybe most importantly but least well known, 2117 01:55:18,320 --> 01:55:21,520 Speaker 1: the third school that we're actually going to be talking 2118 01:55:21,520 --> 01:55:24,800 Speaker 1: about today is the German Ordo Liberals, led by Alexander Rousteau, 2119 01:55:24,840 --> 01:55:29,400 Speaker 1: who again invented determina liberalism, and Wilheim Ropek, who almost 2120 01:55:29,400 --> 01:55:31,600 Speaker 1: no one has ever heard of, but are incredibly important. 2121 01:55:32,200 --> 01:55:34,920 Speaker 1: And I'm gonna I'm gonna insert a disclaimer here before 2122 01:55:34,920 --> 01:55:37,160 Speaker 1: I get yelled at by by nerds. Yes, I'm aware 2123 01:55:37,160 --> 01:55:39,080 Speaker 1: of the public choice theories at the Virginia School. I 2124 01:55:39,120 --> 01:55:40,600 Speaker 1: am also aware of at a group of the deal 2125 01:55:40,600 --> 01:55:42,560 Speaker 1: lierbals is called the Geneva School, even though they're just 2126 01:55:42,600 --> 01:55:46,120 Speaker 1: regular or the liberals. And there's also the rump of 2127 01:55:46,160 --> 01:55:49,040 Speaker 1: the neo institutionalists. Um, I don't care about them because 2128 01:55:49,080 --> 01:55:51,600 Speaker 1: they're not irrelevant to this story. Please do not you 2129 01:55:51,800 --> 01:55:56,000 Speaker 1: yell at me on Twitter. Now, these people have wildly 2130 01:55:56,120 --> 01:55:59,440 Speaker 1: divergent beliefs, and so I'm gonna do my best to 2131 01:55:59,440 --> 01:56:03,360 Speaker 1: do once sentence summaries of what these people believe. So 2132 01:56:03,680 --> 01:56:08,680 Speaker 1: the Chicago School of Neoclassical economics, humans are all knowing, 2133 01:56:08,880 --> 01:56:12,240 Speaker 1: calculating gods, rationally optimizing their behavior to get the most 2134 01:56:12,240 --> 01:56:15,280 Speaker 1: out of every single human interaction they engage in to 2135 01:56:15,360 --> 01:56:18,480 Speaker 1: maximize the utility the product of this infinite freedom to 2136 01:56:18,560 --> 01:56:24,160 Speaker 1: choose economic equilibrium. The Austrian school, humans are pig ignorant foxx, 2137 01:56:24,200 --> 01:56:26,560 Speaker 1: you know literally nothing and therefore mostly made to bow 2138 01:56:26,640 --> 01:56:29,480 Speaker 1: down to the ever changing disequilibrium of the market, which 2139 01:56:29,520 --> 01:56:34,560 Speaker 1: is the only thing that can actually process information order liberalism. 2140 01:56:34,600 --> 01:56:37,760 Speaker 1: The markets won't create or balance itself because these uncultured 2141 01:56:37,760 --> 01:56:40,720 Speaker 1: proletarian swine keep asking for raises instead of focusing on 2142 01:56:40,760 --> 01:56:42,480 Speaker 1: the magic of the families. So we have to use 2143 01:56:42,520 --> 01:56:44,680 Speaker 1: the state and laws to force people and companies to 2144 01:56:44,720 --> 01:56:48,120 Speaker 1: do competition. And these are obviously some what comical summaries 2145 01:56:48,120 --> 01:56:53,280 Speaker 1: of it, but these are very very different conceptions of 2146 01:56:53,320 --> 01:56:55,680 Speaker 1: what it is to be a human, of whether the 2147 01:56:55,720 --> 01:57:04,600 Speaker 1: market occurs naturally or not, of what the market actually is. 2148 01:57:04,600 --> 01:57:06,480 Speaker 1: Is it a product, is it an object in and 2149 01:57:06,520 --> 01:57:08,000 Speaker 1: of itself? Is it a product? Is it just an 2150 01:57:08,040 --> 01:57:13,720 Speaker 1: inevitable product of humans doing whatever humans do? And this 2151 01:57:13,760 --> 01:57:16,400 Speaker 1: is part of the reason why it's always almost impossible 2152 01:57:16,440 --> 01:57:20,680 Speaker 1: to get the original neal liberal sugree into anything. But 2153 01:57:20,720 --> 01:57:22,320 Speaker 1: this is actually one of the strength of the neo 2154 01:57:22,360 --> 01:57:25,840 Speaker 1: libal project. The project only works because it uses the 2155 01:57:25,840 --> 01:57:28,200 Speaker 1: products of all three branches. You have neo classical attacks 2156 01:57:28,200 --> 01:57:30,840 Speaker 1: on the welfare state, Austrian attacks in sexual planning and order, 2157 01:57:30,840 --> 01:57:33,640 Speaker 1: liberal theories of the state, and sort of cultural on 2158 01:57:33,680 --> 01:57:37,720 Speaker 1: the non economic nature of markets. And you know, when 2159 01:57:37,760 --> 01:57:40,720 Speaker 1: one school essentially fails as an explanation for something, they 2160 01:57:40,720 --> 01:57:43,920 Speaker 1: can show to another school, and this gives them a 2161 01:57:44,040 --> 01:57:49,360 Speaker 1: very wide range of ability to move between crises and 2162 01:57:49,400 --> 01:57:52,200 Speaker 1: move between people attacking any of the individual schools because 2163 01:57:52,200 --> 01:57:55,320 Speaker 1: they can simply pull out another set of theories. So 2164 01:57:55,600 --> 01:57:57,520 Speaker 1: I'm going to talk a little bit more about each 2165 01:57:57,520 --> 01:57:59,440 Speaker 1: of the schools, and we're gonna start with the Chicago 2166 01:57:59,480 --> 01:58:02,560 Speaker 1: School because is against the most famous, and because I 2167 01:58:02,960 --> 01:58:05,480 Speaker 1: think there's a there's another very interesting story here into 2168 01:58:05,520 --> 01:58:11,680 Speaker 1: how the Chicago School change from which origins. So one 2169 01:58:11,680 --> 01:58:13,600 Speaker 1: of the people who are supposed to be a founding 2170 01:58:13,640 --> 01:58:16,360 Speaker 1: member of the Chicago School was a manner in Henry Simmons, 2171 01:58:17,320 --> 01:58:20,360 Speaker 1: and Simmons is unlike the rest of the Chicago School 2172 01:58:20,360 --> 01:58:23,480 Speaker 1: because he actually believes in things. So I'm going to 2173 01:58:23,520 --> 01:58:27,440 Speaker 1: read a couple of quotes from him. Thus, the great 2174 01:58:27,520 --> 01:58:30,800 Speaker 1: enemy of democracy is monopoly in all its forms, gigantic 2175 01:58:30,840 --> 01:58:34,960 Speaker 1: corporate trade associations and other agencies of price control, trade unions, 2176 01:58:35,040 --> 01:58:39,680 Speaker 1: or in general organization and concentration of power within functional classes. 2177 01:58:40,360 --> 01:58:43,720 Speaker 1: Here's another one. A monopolist is an implicit thief because 2178 01:58:43,720 --> 01:58:46,400 Speaker 1: this possession of market power leads the exchange of commodities 2179 01:58:46,400 --> 01:58:50,920 Speaker 1: at prices that do not reflect underlying social scarcities. And 2180 01:58:51,040 --> 01:58:53,000 Speaker 1: you know, you can see this sort of one of 2181 01:58:53,000 --> 01:58:56,120 Speaker 1: one of the classic neliberal arguments, which is that okay, 2182 01:58:56,160 --> 01:58:57,640 Speaker 1: so you have you have, you have the market. The 2183 01:58:57,640 --> 01:59:00,000 Speaker 1: market is efficient, and trade unions get in the way 2184 01:59:00,000 --> 01:59:03,880 Speaker 1: of the market because their monopoly. But Simmons has what 2185 01:59:04,320 --> 01:59:06,520 Speaker 1: kind of looks like from from our prospective of left 2186 01:59:06,520 --> 01:59:09,000 Speaker 1: wink critique of monopolies, which is, yeah, okay, giant corps 2187 01:59:09,000 --> 01:59:12,040 Speaker 1: monopolies are thieves because they use their market power to 2188 01:59:12,320 --> 01:59:19,120 Speaker 1: rob people by charging higher prices, and it's it's I 2189 01:59:19,160 --> 01:59:22,600 Speaker 1: genuinely can't say how differently things would have gone if 2190 01:59:22,640 --> 01:59:25,960 Speaker 1: Simmons had actually been around to see the Chicago's go through, 2191 01:59:26,000 --> 01:59:30,760 Speaker 1: because he commits suicide in neteen forty six, and unlike 2192 01:59:31,440 --> 01:59:34,200 Speaker 1: every single other person who was going to be involved 2193 01:59:34,200 --> 01:59:37,280 Speaker 1: with the Chicago School from the beginning until now, Simmons 2194 01:59:37,320 --> 01:59:40,560 Speaker 1: had a genuine and commitment to democracy and anti monopoly principles. 2195 01:59:41,000 --> 01:59:43,800 Speaker 1: But unfortunately he's he dies in nete forty six, and 2196 01:59:43,800 --> 01:59:45,440 Speaker 1: by the by, the Chago School is really up and 2197 01:59:45,520 --> 01:59:48,160 Speaker 1: running in the fifties, almost everyone involved in it is 2198 01:59:48,240 --> 01:59:51,280 Speaker 1: overtly pro monopoly pro cooperation, and are you know that 2199 01:59:51,320 --> 01:59:53,200 Speaker 1: they set up an anti trust school. But the thing 2200 01:59:53,200 --> 01:59:55,520 Speaker 1: that the anti trust School is arguing is that monopolies 2201 01:59:55,640 --> 01:59:59,000 Speaker 1: are actually essentially impossible because competition will just take care 2202 01:59:59,000 --> 02:00:02,080 Speaker 1: of everything, and if you try to stop monopolies from happening, 2203 02:00:02,120 --> 02:00:05,680 Speaker 1: that will interfere in the economy. Now, this is this 2204 02:00:05,720 --> 02:00:08,200 Speaker 1: is the line that Milton Friedman takes, and it's also 2205 02:00:08,280 --> 02:00:11,920 Speaker 1: the line of the Vulcar Fund, who are a sort 2206 02:00:11,960 --> 02:00:14,560 Speaker 1: of I guess you could call them a charitable organization, 2207 02:00:14,560 --> 02:00:18,520 Speaker 1: but it's basically a billionaire slush funds that funds the school. 2208 02:00:19,320 --> 02:00:22,800 Speaker 1: And they've had real fights with Simmons Becauseimmons is like, well, okay, 2209 02:00:22,840 --> 02:00:25,200 Speaker 1: monopolies are bad. At Vulcars like, well, we're a monopoly, 2210 02:00:25,720 --> 02:00:27,840 Speaker 1: so you guys need to actually work for us. And 2211 02:00:27,880 --> 02:00:31,120 Speaker 1: by the time Freedman essentially takes over the Chicago School 2212 02:00:31,280 --> 02:00:35,000 Speaker 1: and uh night take it over. They're not just intellectual mercenaries. 2213 02:00:35,000 --> 02:00:38,040 Speaker 1: They're extremely proud of the fact that they are, in fact, 2214 02:00:38,120 --> 02:00:42,240 Speaker 1: pure intellectual mercenary hacks with absolutely dogshit economics. If you've 2215 02:00:42,240 --> 02:00:45,040 Speaker 1: ever read just a or you know, if you've ever 2216 02:00:45,080 --> 02:00:47,920 Speaker 1: been forced to take an economics class, you took microeconomics. 2217 02:00:48,640 --> 02:00:51,920 Speaker 1: That's basically just what Chicago School believes. It's everyone's a 2218 02:00:52,000 --> 02:00:55,280 Speaker 1: rational actor. Every every human being spends all of their 2219 02:00:55,320 --> 02:00:57,960 Speaker 1: time trying to calculate the maximum utility of anything that 2220 02:00:58,000 --> 02:01:00,800 Speaker 1: they do. Everything is a market. Everything functions by supply 2221 02:01:00,840 --> 02:01:05,440 Speaker 1: and demand. Markets are perfectly efficient if you just let 2222 02:01:05,480 --> 02:01:08,320 Speaker 1: them alone and don't interfere with them. Everything the state 2223 02:01:08,320 --> 02:01:11,560 Speaker 1: does interfered with the markets, et cetera, excepted. This is 2224 02:01:13,040 --> 02:01:15,400 Speaker 1: this is the thing that is sort of classically understood 2225 02:01:15,400 --> 02:01:18,920 Speaker 1: to be neoliberalisms core content. But it's extremely important to 2226 02:01:19,000 --> 02:01:22,120 Speaker 1: understand that these are not the only neoliberals, and in fact, 2227 02:01:22,240 --> 02:01:25,600 Speaker 1: not only are these not the only neoliberals, this set 2228 02:01:25,600 --> 02:01:28,440 Speaker 1: of political principles, to a large extent, is not what 2229 02:01:28,520 --> 02:01:31,640 Speaker 1: the neoliberals actually believe. This kind of stuff is essentially 2230 02:01:31,680 --> 02:01:34,960 Speaker 1: what they feed the roots. Small states, tax is bad, 2231 02:01:35,000 --> 02:01:38,640 Speaker 1: regulation bad. Everything is a market and has always been 2232 02:01:38,640 --> 02:01:42,000 Speaker 1: a market, and all human interactions will nevitably produce markets. 2233 02:01:42,320 --> 02:01:45,800 Speaker 1: But to understand what neo liberals actually believe, we need 2234 02:01:45,800 --> 02:01:49,280 Speaker 1: to talk about the order liberals. Now, the two most 2235 02:01:49,280 --> 02:01:53,520 Speaker 1: important order liberals are Wilheim rope K and W. W. Roustau, 2236 02:01:53,680 --> 02:01:57,000 Speaker 1: who were both exilis during the Nazi regime. Now, a 2237 02:01:57,000 --> 02:02:00,640 Speaker 1: lot of the other order liberals who stay in Nazi 2238 02:02:00,680 --> 02:02:03,160 Speaker 1: Germany collaborated with the Nazi regime, which is something that's 2239 02:02:03,200 --> 02:02:05,320 Speaker 1: kind of just overlooked and brush to the side when 2240 02:02:05,320 --> 02:02:08,480 Speaker 1: people are right about them. But grope Key and Rousseau's 2241 02:02:08,480 --> 02:02:11,720 Speaker 1: status as people who you know, fled the Nazis gives 2242 02:02:11,760 --> 02:02:14,600 Speaker 1: them a kind of social cache that their colleagues don't have, 2243 02:02:14,640 --> 02:02:18,840 Speaker 1: and they become extremely important. Now. In some ways, the 2244 02:02:18,920 --> 02:02:21,960 Speaker 1: Order Liberals could be considered the left wing of of 2245 02:02:22,200 --> 02:02:27,400 Speaker 1: the neoliberals. They are significantly less harsh on the welfare 2246 02:02:27,440 --> 02:02:29,800 Speaker 1: state than other forms of neoliberalism, and this is in 2247 02:02:29,920 --> 02:02:33,200 Speaker 1: large part because the Order Liberals are the first new 2248 02:02:33,240 --> 02:02:36,360 Speaker 1: liberals to ever actually hold any power, and I think 2249 02:02:36,360 --> 02:02:38,120 Speaker 1: people most people tend to think that the first time 2250 02:02:38,160 --> 02:02:40,320 Speaker 1: the liberalism was ever implemented was Chile, but that's not 2251 02:02:40,400 --> 02:02:43,880 Speaker 1: really true. The Order Liberals are actually very powerful in 2252 02:02:43,880 --> 02:02:48,000 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifties Germany. Now, the problem they face is 2253 02:02:48,040 --> 02:02:52,600 Speaker 1: that the left is powerful enough in Germany that they 2254 02:02:52,600 --> 02:02:57,280 Speaker 1: cannot actually just completely eliminate the welfare state. So their 2255 02:02:57,320 --> 02:02:59,879 Speaker 1: solution is to create this thing called the social markets. 2256 02:03:00,880 --> 02:03:03,920 Speaker 1: And the Order Liberals get accused of like being crypto 2257 02:03:03,960 --> 02:03:06,560 Speaker 1: socialists by a lot of the other Neil liberals, but 2258 02:03:06,600 --> 02:03:09,840 Speaker 1: that's not really what's going on. The very important thing 2259 02:03:09,880 --> 02:03:12,320 Speaker 1: about the Order Liberals is that, unlike the Chicago School, 2260 02:03:12,480 --> 02:03:16,879 Speaker 1: they're not economists. Both Rockey and Rousto or social scientists. 2261 02:03:16,920 --> 02:03:22,200 Speaker 1: Russo's a sociologist, and they argue that the state and 2262 02:03:22,240 --> 02:03:25,879 Speaker 1: the market alone cannot maintain market society because market society 2263 02:03:25,880 --> 02:03:30,600 Speaker 1: produces dislocation, you know, produces atomization, It destroys social cohesion. 2264 02:03:31,240 --> 02:03:34,480 Speaker 1: And this means that you need a social, political, and 2265 02:03:34,560 --> 02:03:38,560 Speaker 1: sort of cultural framework to maintain it. And their major 2266 02:03:38,600 --> 02:03:42,440 Speaker 1: focus is on providing stability and security for the working 2267 02:03:42,480 --> 02:03:45,120 Speaker 1: class and a new sense of sort of identity and 2268 02:03:45,160 --> 02:03:48,040 Speaker 1: cultural caohiation, because I think if the working class is 2269 02:03:48,080 --> 02:03:52,000 Speaker 1: essentially left to itself, it will create massification, cultural decay, 2270 02:03:52,320 --> 02:03:55,360 Speaker 1: and eventually the working class return into the proletariat, and 2271 02:03:55,360 --> 02:03:58,600 Speaker 1: that will give these either communism or fascism. The order 2272 02:03:58,640 --> 02:04:01,080 Speaker 1: liberals believe that there's the there's a kind of natural 2273 02:04:01,160 --> 02:04:04,200 Speaker 1: hierarchical order that they're trying to preserve. That this is 2274 02:04:04,920 --> 02:04:09,440 Speaker 1: essentially what order means. It means literally order which accords 2275 02:04:09,480 --> 02:04:11,520 Speaker 1: with the essence of humans. This means an order in 2276 02:04:11,560 --> 02:04:16,120 Speaker 1: which proportioned measure and balance exists. Now they have a 2277 02:04:16,160 --> 02:04:18,320 Speaker 1: few ways that they're going to do this rope case 2278 02:04:18,360 --> 02:04:22,120 Speaker 1: obsessed with something called structural policy. And structural policy is 2279 02:04:22,160 --> 02:04:24,000 Speaker 1: basically the argument that the conditions from markets have to 2280 02:04:24,000 --> 02:04:28,160 Speaker 1: be specifically created, and again they're not just economic positions 2281 02:04:28,160 --> 02:04:34,200 Speaker 1: of social conditions. And this is fused with Risteau's vital politique, 2282 02:04:34,560 --> 02:04:38,440 Speaker 1: which is essentially about that the power of anthropological and 2283 02:04:38,480 --> 02:04:41,760 Speaker 1: human aspects of culture and politics beyond the forces of 2284 02:04:41,800 --> 02:04:45,000 Speaker 1: production that they think are vital sort of the functioning 2285 02:04:45,000 --> 02:04:47,880 Speaker 1: of society. And part of what they're doing here is 2286 02:04:47,880 --> 02:04:50,080 Speaker 1: that they want to give something people a cultural thing 2287 02:04:50,440 --> 02:04:53,240 Speaker 1: to focus on, so they stop talking about like wages 2288 02:04:53,320 --> 02:04:56,920 Speaker 1: and welfare and who owns production. But the combination of 2289 02:04:57,320 --> 02:05:00,600 Speaker 1: vital politic and structural policy gets you order liberalism. So 2290 02:05:00,760 --> 02:05:03,440 Speaker 1: nominally they focus on individuals, but really what they're focusing 2291 02:05:03,480 --> 02:05:06,440 Speaker 1: on as the family, as this quote unquote decentralized engine 2292 02:05:06,440 --> 02:05:10,880 Speaker 1: of economic capitalism with small businesses and hopefully small family 2293 02:05:10,920 --> 02:05:13,200 Speaker 1: farms as a sort of a political social support base 2294 02:05:13,280 --> 02:05:16,160 Speaker 1: for capitalism, which they're they're they're going to promote and 2295 02:05:16,200 --> 02:05:18,800 Speaker 1: set against the radicalism of the sort of industrial proletariat. 2296 02:05:20,960 --> 02:05:23,520 Speaker 1: And this this sort of middle class that they're aspiring 2297 02:05:23,560 --> 02:05:25,680 Speaker 1: to build is extremely important for a number of reasons. 2298 02:05:25,720 --> 02:05:28,800 Speaker 1: Partially is a way to diffuse working class tension. Partially 2299 02:05:28,840 --> 02:05:31,000 Speaker 1: as a way to sort of offers work or something 2300 02:05:31,000 --> 02:05:33,680 Speaker 1: to inspired to, and partly as a way to fuse 2301 02:05:33,800 --> 02:05:38,360 Speaker 1: the sort of traditional natural hierarchy with conceptions and britocracy. Now, 2302 02:05:39,320 --> 02:05:44,640 Speaker 1: Roka in particular also begins to look for systems outside 2303 02:05:44,680 --> 02:05:48,480 Speaker 1: of just the democratic state to sort of create this 2304 02:05:48,560 --> 02:05:52,879 Speaker 1: legal apparatus that the neoliberals want to use to impose markets. 2305 02:05:53,080 --> 02:05:57,560 Speaker 1: And this is extremely important because a lot of where 2306 02:05:57,600 --> 02:06:00,560 Speaker 1: neo liberalism winds are coming from is not from national governments. 2307 02:06:00,600 --> 02:06:02,840 Speaker 1: It's from the sort of international bureaucracy. It's from the 2308 02:06:02,880 --> 02:06:04,800 Speaker 1: I m F. It's from the World Bank, it's from 2309 02:06:05,200 --> 02:06:09,760 Speaker 1: the World Trade Organization, and those groups are controlled by 2310 02:06:09,840 --> 02:06:12,680 Speaker 1: by neoliberal lawyers. And Rock is the person who essentially 2311 02:06:12,680 --> 02:06:16,840 Speaker 1: first has this idea. Now, the goal of using these 2312 02:06:16,880 --> 02:06:20,240 Speaker 1: international legal institutions as a way of creating law, the 2313 02:06:20,320 --> 02:06:22,880 Speaker 1: laws to sort of enforce new liberalism is using it 2314 02:06:22,920 --> 02:06:24,720 Speaker 1: as a way to sort of get around democracy. And 2315 02:06:24,760 --> 02:06:29,840 Speaker 1: I'm going to read this quote from Roque because oh boy, 2316 02:06:30,200 --> 02:06:33,320 Speaker 1: does he absolutely not believe in freedom and democracy in 2317 02:06:33,320 --> 02:06:37,480 Speaker 1: the way that he and everyone else talks about publicly. 2318 02:06:38,360 --> 02:06:41,280 Speaker 1: It is possible that in my opinion of the strong state, 2319 02:06:41,720 --> 02:06:47,560 Speaker 1: I am even more fascist, fascististure than you yourself, because 2320 02:06:47,640 --> 02:06:50,680 Speaker 1: I would indeed like to see all economic policy decisions 2321 02:06:50,680 --> 02:06:53,840 Speaker 1: concentrated in the hand of a fully independent and vigorous state, 2322 02:06:53,920 --> 02:06:57,600 Speaker 1: weakened by no pluralist authorities of a corporative kind. I 2323 02:06:57,600 --> 02:07:00,680 Speaker 1: see the strength of the state in the intensity, not extensiveness, 2324 02:07:00,680 --> 02:07:04,480 Speaker 1: of its economic policies. How the constitutional legal structure of 2325 02:07:04,480 --> 02:07:06,720 Speaker 1: such a state should be designed as a question in 2326 02:07:06,760 --> 02:07:09,520 Speaker 1: and of itself, for which I have no patent receipt 2327 02:07:09,600 --> 02:07:13,440 Speaker 1: to offer. I share your opinion that the old formulas 2328 02:07:13,440 --> 02:07:17,240 Speaker 1: of parliamentary democracy have proven themselves useless. People must get 2329 02:07:17,280 --> 02:07:19,240 Speaker 1: used to the fact that there is also a presidential 2330 02:07:19,280 --> 02:07:25,560 Speaker 1: authoritarian even yes, horrible thing to say, dictatorial democracy. So 2331 02:07:25,960 --> 02:07:28,880 Speaker 1: what he's saying there is that's he's he's he's he's 2332 02:07:28,920 --> 02:07:30,520 Speaker 1: sending a letter to one of you his friends, and 2333 02:07:30,560 --> 02:07:33,320 Speaker 1: he's going, yeah, I'm I'm even more fascist than you are. 2334 02:07:33,360 --> 02:07:36,839 Speaker 1: I think that democracy is actually a threat to the market, 2335 02:07:37,320 --> 02:07:40,160 Speaker 1: and that in order to avoid authoritarian democracy, we should, 2336 02:07:40,160 --> 02:07:43,040 Speaker 1: in fact concentrate all economic decision making power in a 2337 02:07:43,200 --> 02:07:45,600 Speaker 1: in the hands of a narrow elite in a strong state, 2338 02:07:46,240 --> 02:07:48,560 Speaker 1: which is, you know, the opposite of everything that near 2339 02:07:48,600 --> 02:07:52,360 Speaker 1: liberals opened the claim to be supporting, but behind closed doors. 2340 02:07:52,720 --> 02:07:54,600 Speaker 1: And we will get into more of this in a second. 2341 02:07:54,760 --> 02:07:59,480 Speaker 1: This is what they actually believe. Now. Rok is somewhat 2342 02:07:59,560 --> 02:08:02,320 Speaker 1: unique among Neni liberals in that he is racist by 2343 02:08:02,360 --> 02:08:07,080 Speaker 1: neoliberal standards. He's just enormously incredibly racist. So for example, 2344 02:08:07,160 --> 02:08:11,680 Speaker 1: he he's a massive apartheid dude. And again I want 2345 02:08:11,960 --> 02:08:14,240 Speaker 1: I need to point this out. Roku is one of 2346 02:08:14,280 --> 02:08:16,280 Speaker 1: the things, is one of the most important neoliberals. He's 2347 02:08:16,280 --> 02:08:18,600 Speaker 1: one of the founding members of the Montpellion Society, although 2348 02:08:18,760 --> 02:08:22,240 Speaker 1: he gets kicked out for well, he eventually leaves because 2349 02:08:22,240 --> 02:08:26,000 Speaker 1: of some disputes he as with Hyak. But you know, 2350 02:08:26,240 --> 02:08:28,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna read some of the things that he says 2351 02:08:28,640 --> 02:08:32,800 Speaker 1: about South Africa because they're horrible. Quote, the South African 2352 02:08:32,800 --> 02:08:35,720 Speaker 1: negro is not only a man of an utterly different race, 2353 02:08:35,800 --> 02:08:38,560 Speaker 1: but at the same time stems from a completely different 2354 02:08:38,600 --> 02:08:42,400 Speaker 1: type and level of civilization. He also calls ending apartheid 2355 02:08:42,480 --> 02:08:46,040 Speaker 1: quote national suicide. And you know, so she starts saying 2356 02:08:46,040 --> 02:08:48,600 Speaker 1: this stuff and the other neoliberals are like, dude, what 2357 02:08:48,680 --> 02:08:51,400 Speaker 1: the fuck? So that the oliberal he needs newspaper like 2358 02:08:51,440 --> 02:08:54,320 Speaker 1: he wrote for for thirty years, which is like what's 2359 02:08:54,320 --> 02:08:57,560 Speaker 1: and published a bunch of students going stop this. This 2360 02:08:57,640 --> 02:09:00,520 Speaker 1: is you cannot seriously be supporting a part tied like this. 2361 02:09:01,040 --> 02:09:03,280 Speaker 1: And his response in the newspaper is called the n 2362 02:09:03,360 --> 02:09:05,960 Speaker 1: z Z and his response is quote these n z 2363 02:09:06,120 --> 02:09:09,160 Speaker 1: Z near intellectuals will not be satisfied until they let 2364 02:09:09,160 --> 02:09:12,840 Speaker 1: a real cannibals speak now. Rope is one of his friends, 2365 02:09:12,840 --> 02:09:17,080 Speaker 1: another MPs member named Hundled. So Hyak looks at ropek 2366 02:09:17,160 --> 02:09:19,880 Speaker 1: support for apartheid and is like what the fuck? Like no, 2367 02:09:20,040 --> 02:09:23,840 Speaker 1: absolutely not, Like this is horrible. Why why are you 2368 02:09:23,880 --> 02:09:26,000 Speaker 1: doing this? You know? To too high X credit that 2369 02:09:26,040 --> 02:09:27,400 Speaker 1: this This is the extent of the credit I will 2370 02:09:27,440 --> 02:09:30,840 Speaker 1: give Hik in this episode is that he looks at 2371 02:09:30,880 --> 02:09:33,440 Speaker 1: just the open overt racism of rocaine is like no. 2372 02:09:34,360 --> 02:09:39,600 Speaker 1: And when when he does this Ropek's friends, Hundled says 2373 02:09:39,640 --> 02:09:42,880 Speaker 1: that Hyatt quote now advocates one man, one vote in 2374 02:09:43,000 --> 02:09:46,920 Speaker 1: race mixing. Now, you can see a lot of things 2375 02:09:46,920 --> 02:09:51,440 Speaker 1: here about Okay that are extremely scary. And one of 2376 02:09:51,480 --> 02:09:56,280 Speaker 1: those things is that the language that she's speaking this uh, 2377 02:09:56,320 --> 02:10:02,800 Speaker 1: the West is committing national suicide. UH, clash of civilizations, 2378 02:10:03,240 --> 02:10:06,480 Speaker 1: race war stuff. You know, this is this is Essentially 2379 02:10:06,600 --> 02:10:09,880 Speaker 1: the the I mean literally, the national suicide thing is 2380 02:10:09,920 --> 02:10:12,200 Speaker 1: what white nationalists say today. And Ropek is in a 2381 02:10:12,240 --> 02:10:13,840 Speaker 1: lot of ways of right nationalist. He's just sort of 2382 02:10:13,880 --> 02:10:19,800 Speaker 1: a German one. But what's what's really scary about rope 2383 02:10:19,880 --> 02:10:24,000 Speaker 1: K is that he's not sort of bound by by 2384 02:10:24,040 --> 02:10:26,040 Speaker 1: the sort of strictures of of of a neo class 2385 02:10:26,040 --> 02:10:28,800 Speaker 1: cogo new classical economists. For example, he won't propose that 2386 02:10:28,880 --> 02:10:31,840 Speaker 1: like the dating market, like like dating should be a market, 2387 02:10:31,920 --> 02:10:33,720 Speaker 1: and that rich like men should be able to like 2388 02:10:34,560 --> 02:10:38,200 Speaker 1: I go on an app and like like every every 2389 02:10:38,280 --> 02:10:40,640 Speaker 1: every single time a person gets into a relationship, it 2390 02:10:40,680 --> 02:10:42,920 Speaker 1: should just be entirely based on market exchange and stuff 2391 02:10:42,960 --> 02:10:45,919 Speaker 1: like that, because you know, he doesn't think like an economist. 2392 02:10:45,920 --> 02:10:47,880 Speaker 1: He thinks about cultural factors, he thinks about sort of 2393 02:10:49,600 --> 02:10:54,280 Speaker 1: social factors. But he also he's cracked the code for 2394 02:10:54,280 --> 02:10:56,440 Speaker 1: how new liberalism is going to be implemented the way 2395 02:10:56,440 --> 02:11:01,000 Speaker 1: you do neoliberalism is near liberalism plus racism, and he 2396 02:11:01,080 --> 02:11:04,960 Speaker 1: realizes that you need you know, neoliberalisms actual sort of 2397 02:11:06,920 --> 02:11:11,320 Speaker 1: policies right will cause atomization. What causuals with dislocation will 2398 02:11:11,360 --> 02:11:15,600 Speaker 1: cause that the existing social structures to society sort of implode. 2399 02:11:15,920 --> 02:11:17,960 Speaker 1: And he realizes that in order to get this to work, 2400 02:11:17,960 --> 02:11:19,880 Speaker 1: you need you need a spiritual base, You need some 2401 02:11:19,960 --> 02:11:24,000 Speaker 1: kind of new thing that you can use to to 2402 02:11:23,840 --> 02:11:27,160 Speaker 1: to sort of bring all these people together. And he 2403 02:11:27,240 --> 02:11:32,320 Speaker 1: ficks Catholicism, which doesn't work because I mean, there's never 2404 02:11:32,360 --> 02:11:34,840 Speaker 1: reason for this. But you know, partially it's too early. 2405 02:11:34,920 --> 02:11:38,040 Speaker 1: Partially it's because he picks a Catholicism, not evangelicalism. But 2406 02:11:38,680 --> 02:11:40,680 Speaker 1: this is how the neoliberals are eventually going to take 2407 02:11:40,680 --> 02:11:43,920 Speaker 1: power by you know, aligning themselves with the evangelicals who 2408 02:11:43,920 --> 02:11:46,080 Speaker 1: promised to solve the atomization. They're creating with you know, 2409 02:11:46,160 --> 02:11:50,920 Speaker 1: religion and family and the patriarchy. And he figures this 2410 02:11:51,040 --> 02:11:56,480 Speaker 1: out in like the sixties, but it's just you know, 2411 02:11:56,600 --> 02:11:58,920 Speaker 1: like twenty years before the rest of the levels figured out. 2412 02:12:00,320 --> 02:12:03,440 Speaker 1: Now there's you know, he also, Okay, has like a 2413 02:12:03,480 --> 02:12:05,480 Speaker 1: bunch of very similar stuff that he thinks about this 2414 02:12:05,640 --> 02:12:10,560 Speaker 1: about Rhodesia. But interestingly, he has more support for his 2415 02:12:10,600 --> 02:12:13,200 Speaker 1: positions on Rhodesia than he does for his positions in 2416 02:12:13,240 --> 02:12:16,080 Speaker 1: South Africa. And now I'm gonna we're gonna jump back 2417 02:12:16,080 --> 02:12:19,200 Speaker 1: to Chicago School. We're gonna read some Milton Friedman stuff 2418 02:12:19,240 --> 02:12:24,760 Speaker 1: about Rhodesia because dear God, quote, majority rule for Rhodesia 2419 02:12:24,840 --> 02:12:28,000 Speaker 1: today is a euphemism for a black minority government, which 2420 02:12:28,000 --> 02:12:30,560 Speaker 1: would almost surely mean both the eviction or exodus of 2421 02:12:30,640 --> 02:12:33,840 Speaker 1: most of the whites and also a drastically lower living 2422 02:12:34,200 --> 02:12:37,560 Speaker 1: level and opportunity for the black masses of Rhodesia. Here's 2423 02:12:37,560 --> 02:12:40,600 Speaker 1: another one where he's describing the system of one person, 2424 02:12:40,720 --> 02:12:44,560 Speaker 1: one vote, quote, a system of highly weighted voting in 2425 02:12:44,600 --> 02:12:47,600 Speaker 1: which special interests of far greater role to play than 2426 02:12:47,640 --> 02:12:51,120 Speaker 1: does the general interest. You know. So that's the decryption 2427 02:12:51,160 --> 02:12:54,840 Speaker 1: of what democracy is. In contrast, he thinks the market 2428 02:12:54,840 --> 02:12:59,880 Speaker 1: economy is quote a system of effective proportional representation. Now 2429 02:13:00,280 --> 02:13:03,280 Speaker 1: Friedman also thinks that, you know, so, so there's there's 2430 02:13:03,320 --> 02:13:06,520 Speaker 1: a blockade, like an economic blockade of Rhodesia going on 2431 02:13:06,680 --> 02:13:11,320 Speaker 1: because their Rhodesia and they are maybe the worst people ever. 2432 02:13:12,320 --> 02:13:16,160 Speaker 1: That's only only in by ald exaggeration. Yeah, it's just 2433 02:13:16,440 --> 02:13:19,839 Speaker 1: you know, absolutely fanatical, like what was you promises government. 2434 02:13:20,640 --> 02:13:23,840 Speaker 1: And Freedman also calls the isolation of Rhodesia quote the 2435 02:13:23,920 --> 02:13:28,320 Speaker 1: suicide of the West. And you know he's doing this 2436 02:13:28,360 --> 02:13:34,440 Speaker 1: on racial lines, but he's also doing this along the 2437 02:13:34,480 --> 02:13:39,960 Speaker 1: lines of this argument that democracy itself is actually bad, 2438 02:13:40,120 --> 02:13:41,760 Speaker 1: and this is the place that he can express it 2439 02:13:41,800 --> 02:13:45,280 Speaker 1: because you know, he can leverage racism to get away 2440 02:13:45,320 --> 02:13:48,920 Speaker 1: with it. And I'm going to read another Freedman quote 2441 02:13:48,960 --> 02:13:52,560 Speaker 1: because I think it's it's important to understand what the 2442 02:13:52,600 --> 02:13:57,040 Speaker 1: neoliberals actually think about democracy. Quote. This was sometimes admitted 2443 02:13:57,040 --> 02:13:59,800 Speaker 1: by members of Mount Pelion in public, but only when 2444 02:13:59,800 --> 02:14:03,680 Speaker 1: they felt that their program was in the sense, let's 2445 02:14:03,680 --> 02:14:06,040 Speaker 1: be clear, I don't believe in democracy in one sense. 2446 02:14:06,160 --> 02:14:09,440 Speaker 1: You don't believe in democracy. Nobody believes in democracy. You 2447 02:14:09,440 --> 02:14:11,640 Speaker 1: will find it hard to find anybody who will say 2448 02:14:11,640 --> 02:14:14,880 Speaker 1: that if democracy is interpreted as a majority rule, you 2449 02:14:14,880 --> 02:14:16,960 Speaker 1: will find it hard to find anybody who will say 2450 02:14:17,000 --> 02:14:21,640 Speaker 1: that of the people believe the other percent of people 2451 02:14:21,680 --> 02:14:25,000 Speaker 1: should be shot, that's an appropriate exercise of democracy. But 2452 02:14:25,080 --> 02:14:27,960 Speaker 1: I believe is not a democracy but an individual freedom 2453 02:14:27,960 --> 02:14:30,680 Speaker 1: in a society in which individuals corroperate with one another. 2454 02:14:31,520 --> 02:14:34,360 Speaker 1: So he's he's making a sort of what's in some 2455 02:14:34,400 --> 02:14:36,920 Speaker 1: ways a kind of anarchist argument against democracy, which is 2456 02:14:36,960 --> 02:14:39,040 Speaker 1: that like, yeah, okay, so if if you interpret democracy 2457 02:14:39,040 --> 02:14:41,160 Speaker 1: as premajority rule, that a majority can just do a 2458 02:14:41,280 --> 02:14:44,400 Speaker 1: terrible thing the minority. But you know what the new 2459 02:14:44,480 --> 02:14:48,800 Speaker 1: lipperals actually mean by this is that of the population could, 2460 02:14:48,960 --> 02:14:52,440 Speaker 1: for example, I don't know, take money from the rich 2461 02:14:52,560 --> 02:14:55,440 Speaker 1: small part of the of the population and distributed around. 2462 02:14:55,520 --> 02:14:58,680 Speaker 1: And they think that is totalitarianism. And in order to 2463 02:14:58,720 --> 02:15:02,440 Speaker 1: stop that from happening, they are in fact, absolutely imperfectly 2464 02:15:02,480 --> 02:15:05,840 Speaker 1: willing to just back dictatorships. And you know that's in us. 2465 02:15:05,880 --> 02:15:08,880 Speaker 1: It's what they what they what they actually want is 2466 02:15:08,880 --> 02:15:11,600 Speaker 1: a state, the sole function of which essentially is to 2467 02:15:11,720 --> 02:15:13,840 Speaker 1: ensure that nobody ever does this. And you know, if 2468 02:15:14,080 --> 02:15:17,640 Speaker 1: you can do this is out of a democratic framework, fine, 2469 02:15:17,720 --> 02:15:20,040 Speaker 1: but if you can't, well, I don't know, it's time 2470 02:15:20,080 --> 02:15:22,960 Speaker 1: for a coup. We're gonna turn to the two Hyak 2471 02:15:23,000 --> 02:15:25,520 Speaker 1: in the Austrians, because Hyak also is known as this 2472 02:15:25,640 --> 02:15:28,520 Speaker 1: sort of like as a libertarian, as a person who 2473 02:15:28,560 --> 02:15:33,040 Speaker 1: sort of believes in spontaneous order and like thinks that 2474 02:15:33,240 --> 02:15:35,640 Speaker 1: I you should you should only have sort of small 2475 02:15:35,720 --> 02:15:42,000 Speaker 1: decentralized political institutions. Uh. And so we're gonna watch Hyak 2476 02:15:44,000 --> 02:15:47,480 Speaker 1: quote a bunch of stuff from and agree with a 2477 02:15:47,520 --> 02:15:50,480 Speaker 1: bunch of stuff from Carl Schmidt, which is again incredible 2478 02:15:50,480 --> 02:15:54,720 Speaker 1: because Hyak elsewhere describes Schmidt as quote, uh, the Nazis 2479 02:15:54,800 --> 02:15:58,640 Speaker 1: chief jurist, which is true. But here here are some 2480 02:15:58,720 --> 02:16:01,680 Speaker 1: other things that Hiak has said about Karl Schmidt. Quote. 2481 02:16:01,960 --> 02:16:04,760 Speaker 1: The weakness of the governments of an omnipotent democracy was 2482 02:16:04,880 --> 02:16:08,000 Speaker 1: very clearly seen by the extraordinary German student of politics, 2483 02:16:08,080 --> 02:16:11,919 Speaker 1: Carl Schmidt, who in the nine twenties probably understood the 2484 02:16:12,040 --> 02:16:14,800 Speaker 1: character of the developing form of government better than most people. 2485 02:16:15,880 --> 02:16:17,720 Speaker 1: And you know, Hyak believes a lot of the same 2486 02:16:17,720 --> 02:16:19,560 Speaker 1: things that Schmick does. So you know, one of them 2487 02:16:20,000 --> 02:16:22,480 Speaker 1: things that Schmidt is like big on is that liberalism 2488 02:16:22,480 --> 02:16:25,760 Speaker 1: and democracy are opposite things. And Hyak also believes this. 2489 02:16:27,160 --> 02:16:29,040 Speaker 1: And okay, so so I'm gonna read I'm gonna read 2490 02:16:29,040 --> 02:16:30,720 Speaker 1: some Schmitt, and then we're gonna read some Hyak, and 2491 02:16:30,720 --> 02:16:33,480 Speaker 1: they're gonna be saying the same thing. So here, Schmidt, 2492 02:16:33,600 --> 02:16:36,760 Speaker 1: only a strong state can preserve and enhance a free markets. 2493 02:16:36,920 --> 02:16:40,360 Speaker 1: Only a strong state can generate, generate genuine decentralization and 2494 02:16:40,440 --> 02:16:44,840 Speaker 1: bring about free and autonomous domains. Here's Hyak. If we 2495 02:16:44,879 --> 02:16:48,320 Speaker 1: proceed on the assumption that only the exercise this is 2496 02:16:48,400 --> 02:16:51,840 Speaker 1: of freedom that the majority will are important, we would 2497 02:16:52,160 --> 02:16:54,320 Speaker 1: be certain to create a stadiant society with all the 2498 02:16:54,360 --> 02:16:59,240 Speaker 1: characteristics of one freedom. So what hi Yak, Yeah, Schmidt 2499 02:16:59,320 --> 02:17:01,560 Speaker 1: is saying that only a strong state can support a 2500 02:17:01,640 --> 02:17:04,000 Speaker 1: free market and the decentralization. Hyak is saying, if you 2501 02:17:04,080 --> 02:17:09,400 Speaker 1: let a democracy exist that has majority rule, it will 2502 02:17:09,520 --> 02:17:14,000 Speaker 1: create un freedom. Now we will get into this more 2503 02:17:14,080 --> 02:17:17,240 Speaker 1: when we talk about like Chile, because oh boy, is 2504 02:17:17,280 --> 02:17:20,080 Speaker 1: there some other ship that Hia cassidy with that. But 2505 02:17:20,959 --> 02:17:23,440 Speaker 1: most neoliberals hate democracy, know about it what they say 2506 02:17:23,440 --> 02:17:25,800 Speaker 1: in public, and and this is the other important thing here. 2507 02:17:25,879 --> 02:17:29,320 Speaker 1: Neo liberals lie, they like constantly. They lie to the 2508 02:17:29,320 --> 02:17:32,040 Speaker 1: point where sorting out their actual beliefs becomes almost impossible, 2509 02:17:32,040 --> 02:17:35,240 Speaker 1: and even their intellectual enemies believe the lies that they tell. Well, 2510 02:17:35,240 --> 02:17:37,560 Speaker 1: most people think the neoliberals believe is that, you know, 2511 02:17:37,560 --> 02:17:40,039 Speaker 1: they want a small government and liberty and an unregulated 2512 02:17:40,120 --> 02:17:43,080 Speaker 1: market that will occur to actually through spontaneous order, because 2513 02:17:43,080 --> 02:17:45,240 Speaker 1: it's human nature to want the truck and barter and 2514 02:17:45,320 --> 02:17:49,160 Speaker 1: rationally calculate things. And the neoliberals don't believe any of this. 2515 02:17:49,160 --> 02:17:50,560 Speaker 1: This is just what they tell to the roots. What 2516 02:17:50,800 --> 02:17:53,960 Speaker 1: they actually want is a large and powerful surveillance in 2517 02:17:54,080 --> 02:17:57,080 Speaker 1: legal state in a massive bureaucracy to enforce essentially pro 2518 02:17:57,160 --> 02:18:01,320 Speaker 1: corporate policies at gunpoints. Um, I'm I'm gonna read close 2519 02:18:01,360 --> 02:18:05,600 Speaker 1: up this episode by by reading a list of things 2520 02:18:05,640 --> 02:18:09,040 Speaker 1: that Philip Morowski is an economical story you studies neliberalism. 2521 02:18:09,160 --> 02:18:12,080 Speaker 1: His work I've used a lot for for these episodes. 2522 02:18:12,600 --> 02:18:15,880 Speaker 1: Wrote about the the sort of, the the sort of 2523 02:18:15,920 --> 02:18:20,879 Speaker 1: eleven principles of what newliberals actually believe. One. Free markets 2524 02:18:20,879 --> 02:18:23,680 Speaker 1: do not occur naturally. They must be actively constructed through 2525 02:18:23,680 --> 02:18:27,640 Speaker 1: political organizing. To the market is an information processor and 2526 02:18:27,800 --> 02:18:30,760 Speaker 1: the most efficient one possible, more efficient than any government 2527 02:18:30,840 --> 02:18:33,560 Speaker 1: or any single human being could be. Truth can only 2528 02:18:33,560 --> 02:18:37,400 Speaker 1: be validated by the market. Three. Market society is, and 2529 02:18:37,440 --> 02:18:40,440 Speaker 1: therefore should be, the natural and inexorable state of human kind. 2530 02:18:40,840 --> 02:18:43,240 Speaker 1: The political goal of neoliberals is not to destroy this day, 2531 02:18:43,320 --> 02:18:45,240 Speaker 1: but to take control of it and to redefine its 2532 02:18:45,240 --> 02:18:47,480 Speaker 1: structure and function in order to create and maintain the 2533 02:18:47,520 --> 02:18:52,000 Speaker 1: market friendly culture. Five. There is no contradiction between public 2534 02:18:52,040 --> 02:18:56,040 Speaker 1: politics citizen and private market entrepreneur consumer, because the latter 2535 02:18:56,120 --> 02:19:00,480 Speaker 1: does and should eclipse the former. Six. The most important virtue, 2536 02:19:00,840 --> 02:19:04,760 Speaker 1: more important then justice or anything else, is freedom defined 2537 02:19:04,920 --> 02:19:09,120 Speaker 1: negatively as freedom to choose, most importantly defined as the 2538 02:19:09,160 --> 02:19:12,440 Speaker 1: freedom to acquiesce to the imperatives of the market. Seven. 2539 02:19:12,720 --> 02:19:16,280 Speaker 1: Capital has a natural right to flow freely across national borders. Eight. 2540 02:19:16,440 --> 02:19:19,960 Speaker 1: Inequality of resources, income, wealth, and even political rights is 2541 02:19:20,000 --> 02:19:23,160 Speaker 1: a good thing. It promotes productivity because people envy the 2542 02:19:23,280 --> 02:19:25,720 Speaker 1: rich and emulate them. People who complain about inequality are 2543 02:19:25,720 --> 02:19:28,040 Speaker 1: either sore looters or old foggies. You need to get 2544 02:19:28,120 --> 02:19:31,880 Speaker 1: hip to the way things work nowadays. Nine. Corporations could 2545 02:19:31,879 --> 02:19:34,600 Speaker 1: do no wrong. By definition, competition will take care of 2546 02:19:34,600 --> 02:19:39,160 Speaker 1: all problems, including any tendency monopoly. Ten. The markets engineered 2547 02:19:39,160 --> 02:19:42,120 Speaker 1: and promoted by neoliberal experts can always provide a solution 2548 02:19:42,160 --> 02:19:44,800 Speaker 1: to the problems seemingly endlessly caused by the market in 2549 02:19:44,800 --> 02:19:47,640 Speaker 1: the first place. There's always an app for that. Eleven 2550 02:19:48,360 --> 02:19:51,400 Speaker 1: there's no difference between is and should be free markets. 2551 02:19:51,440 --> 02:19:54,879 Speaker 1: Both should be normatively and are positively the most efficient 2552 02:19:54,879 --> 02:19:57,920 Speaker 1: economic system and the most just way of doing politics, 2553 02:19:57,959 --> 02:20:00,120 Speaker 1: and the most sympirically true description of human beha off 2554 02:20:00,120 --> 02:20:02,160 Speaker 1: your and the most ethical and moral way to live, 2555 02:20:02,600 --> 02:20:06,640 Speaker 1: which in turn explains, justifies and justifies why there are 2556 02:20:06,879 --> 02:20:11,040 Speaker 1: versions of free markets. Should be and as neoliberals build 2557 02:20:11,080 --> 02:20:14,640 Speaker 1: more and more power increasingly are universal. Yeah, we we 2558 02:20:14,760 --> 02:20:17,760 Speaker 1: we We've read a long list of things. But essentially 2559 02:20:17,840 --> 02:20:19,800 Speaker 1: the point of this is that the liberals want to 2560 02:20:19,800 --> 02:20:22,080 Speaker 1: transform everything into the market because they think the market 2561 02:20:22,080 --> 02:20:23,680 Speaker 1: is a more efficient way of doing things, in a 2562 02:20:23,760 --> 02:20:25,840 Speaker 1: better and more moral and more just way of doing 2563 02:20:25,879 --> 02:20:30,040 Speaker 1: things than anything else you can possibly imagine, including you know, 2564 02:20:30,440 --> 02:20:34,920 Speaker 1: things like democracy and you know, and any problem the 2565 02:20:34,920 --> 02:20:37,800 Speaker 1: system like produces will be solved by the system. Now, 2566 02:20:38,120 --> 02:20:41,600 Speaker 1: this is this is an incredibly radical political program in 2567 02:20:41,640 --> 02:20:45,160 Speaker 1: a lot of ways in that it will you know, 2568 02:20:45,200 --> 02:20:46,840 Speaker 1: you can you can you can argue whether it's a 2569 02:20:46,920 --> 02:20:48,959 Speaker 1: radical or reactionary program. I mean I think I think 2570 02:20:48,959 --> 02:20:51,000 Speaker 1: it's a it's a deeply reactionary one in some ways, 2571 02:20:51,040 --> 02:20:53,120 Speaker 1: but it is a is a program that is vastly 2572 02:20:53,120 --> 02:20:56,040 Speaker 1: different than anything else that has come before it. Now, 2573 02:20:56,959 --> 02:20:59,400 Speaker 1: the challenge, of course, was getting anyone else to agree 2574 02:20:59,400 --> 02:21:02,720 Speaker 1: to this, and the answer is that it's really hard 2575 02:21:02,760 --> 02:21:05,800 Speaker 1: to It is extremely hard to convince people that, you know, 2576 02:21:06,000 --> 02:21:08,959 Speaker 1: everyone should bow down to the market, etcetera, etcetera. And 2577 02:21:09,000 --> 02:21:11,400 Speaker 1: so the only way they can actually do this is 2578 02:21:11,400 --> 02:21:17,920 Speaker 1: by lying. Now, as as Morowski describes, the neoliberals operate 2579 02:21:17,920 --> 02:21:21,080 Speaker 1: an incredibly sophisticated intellectual and political network that forms the 2580 02:21:21,120 --> 02:21:23,360 Speaker 1: sort of a choice Goodell with mort Peller own Siety 2581 02:21:23,400 --> 02:21:25,920 Speaker 1: at its center, and an ever expanding group of more 2582 02:21:26,000 --> 02:21:29,080 Speaker 1: and less specialized think tanks the shell layers. So it 2583 02:21:29,240 --> 02:21:31,960 Speaker 1: is where that they mirror the vanguard structure and sort 2584 02:21:31,959 --> 02:21:33,959 Speaker 1: of frink group networks of their communist opponents, but they 2585 02:21:33,959 --> 02:21:36,280 Speaker 1: have significantly better financial backing. And this means that you know, 2586 02:21:36,320 --> 02:21:39,560 Speaker 1: they can run the American Enterprise Institute and uh, you know, 2587 02:21:39,680 --> 02:21:43,840 Speaker 1: with with with copious amounts of coke money, they can 2588 02:21:43,920 --> 02:21:46,400 Speaker 1: run this entire enormous network of think tanks that allow 2589 02:21:46,480 --> 02:21:48,160 Speaker 1: them to sort of act as a government in waiting. 2590 02:21:48,920 --> 02:21:52,080 Speaker 1: And the other thing that they're going to attempt to 2591 02:21:52,120 --> 02:21:55,680 Speaker 1: do is take over the global regulatory bureaucracy, the I 2592 02:21:55,840 --> 02:21:58,400 Speaker 1: m F, the World Bank, eventually welk trade organizations and 2593 02:21:59,760 --> 02:22:05,560 Speaker 1: for people to do this at gunpoints by using those organizations. Now, 2594 02:22:05,680 --> 02:22:08,600 Speaker 1: all they needed was a crisis that they could use 2595 02:22:08,600 --> 02:22:11,200 Speaker 1: to implement their policies. And next week we're going to 2596 02:22:11,280 --> 02:22:13,560 Speaker 1: look at the crisis that gave them exactly what they wanted. 2597 02:22:14,320 --> 02:22:16,640 Speaker 1: This has been nick. It happen here find us on 2598 02:22:17,120 --> 02:22:20,200 Speaker 1: Instagram and on Twitter at Happened Here Pod. Find the 2599 02:22:20,200 --> 02:22:27,840 Speaker 1: rest of our stuff at cools Up and goodbye. M 2600 02:22:36,600 --> 02:22:43,640 Speaker 1: What's I mean? That's that's all I got today. Who's 2601 02:22:43,680 --> 02:22:48,400 Speaker 1: Who's taken over? Come on? It's me? I guess it's me? 2602 02:22:49,000 --> 02:22:51,480 Speaker 1: All right? Well then what what show is this? And 2603 02:22:51,560 --> 02:22:54,000 Speaker 1: what do we do? This is it could happen here? 2604 02:22:54,120 --> 02:22:58,360 Speaker 1: We talked about things being bad and also what you 2605 02:22:58,440 --> 02:23:00,640 Speaker 1: can do about them, but this is a this is 2606 02:23:00,680 --> 02:23:03,200 Speaker 1: a things are bad episode and not at what you 2607 02:23:03,200 --> 02:23:06,880 Speaker 1: can do about them episode? Specifically, this is part two 2608 02:23:07,080 --> 02:23:09,360 Speaker 1: of what I guess you could call our mini series 2609 02:23:09,360 --> 02:23:13,440 Speaker 1: on neoliberalism. And so you know, yesterday we talked a 2610 02:23:13,440 --> 02:23:17,520 Speaker 1: lot about who the originally liberals are. They have a 2611 02:23:17,560 --> 02:23:19,360 Speaker 1: bit of power in Germany in the fifties, but for 2612 02:23:19,400 --> 02:23:22,680 Speaker 1: the fifties and sixties up to the seventies, they're kind 2613 02:23:22,680 --> 02:23:25,600 Speaker 1: of nobody's there. You know, they're they're there. They have 2614 02:23:25,640 --> 02:23:27,039 Speaker 1: a couple of think tanks, but they're kind of they're 2615 02:23:27,080 --> 02:23:29,680 Speaker 1: kind of just siloed off in the corner and they 2616 02:23:29,760 --> 02:23:32,920 Speaker 1: yell at people and people kind of ignore them. And 2617 02:23:33,160 --> 02:23:36,840 Speaker 1: what they're waiting for, essentially is the right crisis and 2618 02:23:36,920 --> 02:23:40,560 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies, they finally find that crisis. Now, 2619 02:23:40,879 --> 02:23:44,360 Speaker 1: I think it's kind of hard to remember in a 2620 02:23:44,360 --> 02:23:46,560 Speaker 1: lot of ways because of how the eighties went, But 2621 02:23:47,040 --> 02:23:49,640 Speaker 1: in the early nineteen seventies, things are not looking good 2622 02:23:49,680 --> 02:23:52,160 Speaker 1: for capitalism. I mean, you have so you know, I 2623 02:23:52,440 --> 02:23:54,920 Speaker 1: end I end A wins this election nineteen seventy. We'll 2624 02:23:54,920 --> 02:24:00,320 Speaker 1: talk about what happened there in another episode. But you know, 2625 02:24:00,720 --> 02:24:04,040 Speaker 1: it's it's not just that in nineteen nineteen seventy four, well, 2626 02:24:04,520 --> 02:24:07,760 Speaker 1: so to the whole early nineteen seventies, ambl called Carbrial 2627 02:24:07,879 --> 02:24:12,120 Speaker 1: is just absolutely annihilating the Portuguese army. And he, you know, 2628 02:24:12,160 --> 02:24:14,039 Speaker 1: he he wins. He fights one of like one of 2629 02:24:14,080 --> 02:24:18,400 Speaker 1: history's greatest guerrilla wars, and this basically destroys the entire 2630 02:24:18,440 --> 02:24:21,760 Speaker 1: Portuguese state and causes the Carnathan Carnation Revolution. The Portuguese 2631 02:24:21,760 --> 02:24:23,960 Speaker 1: colonies get free, the Dirt takes part in Ethiopia and 2632 02:24:23,959 --> 02:24:27,520 Speaker 1: the net seventy five, the North Vietnam wins the like 2633 02:24:27,520 --> 02:24:29,560 Speaker 1: the war in Vietnam. And now you know the product 2634 02:24:29,640 --> 02:24:33,040 Speaker 1: of this is that Cambodia falls, Laos falls. There's now 2635 02:24:33,120 --> 02:24:36,359 Speaker 1: there's five social estates in Eastern East Asia, in Southeast 2636 02:24:36,400 --> 02:24:39,960 Speaker 1: Asia and ye also Mongolea, but nobody really cares about them. 2637 02:24:40,000 --> 02:24:42,520 Speaker 1: And as as all of this is happening, as these 2638 02:24:42,520 --> 02:24:44,240 Speaker 1: sort of as the anti colonial armies are sort of 2639 02:24:44,280 --> 02:24:49,040 Speaker 1: marching their way through the world, there's an enormous economic crisis. 2640 02:24:49,840 --> 02:24:52,720 Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean there's a lot of things happening 2641 02:24:52,720 --> 02:24:55,039 Speaker 1: at the same time. One of the ones I think 2642 02:24:55,080 --> 02:24:56,840 Speaker 1: is probably the thing, the thing that people remember the 2643 02:24:56,879 --> 02:25:02,039 Speaker 1: most is there's just unbelievable inflation, and you know, and 2644 02:25:02,040 --> 02:25:06,640 Speaker 1: and economic growth starts to slowed down. Although something I 2645 02:25:06,640 --> 02:25:08,600 Speaker 1: think that we do need to keep in mind is 2646 02:25:08,600 --> 02:25:11,920 Speaker 1: that when I say economic growth slows, so economic growth 2647 02:25:11,959 --> 02:25:18,640 Speaker 1: from like sixty seven nine is um from two thousand 2648 02:25:18,720 --> 02:25:20,480 Speaker 1: to two thousand and seven, it was two point three 2649 02:25:20,480 --> 02:25:22,840 Speaker 1: percent in the US, And so you know, when when 2650 02:25:22,920 --> 02:25:24,880 Speaker 1: when when I say there's an economic crisis going on here, 2651 02:25:24,920 --> 02:25:27,080 Speaker 1: like economic growth in the seventies is better than any 2652 02:25:27,080 --> 02:25:30,840 Speaker 1: decades since, but it's still considered the crisis decade because 2653 02:25:30,879 --> 02:25:34,200 Speaker 1: there's much of inflation. And you know, everyone has their 2654 02:25:34,240 --> 02:25:38,520 Speaker 1: own theory as to why this is happening. Because the 2655 02:25:39,040 --> 02:25:41,199 Speaker 1: sort of Keynesians who who have been in power, whose 2656 02:25:41,240 --> 02:25:43,000 Speaker 1: thing is, oh, well, we can you know, if if 2657 02:25:43,000 --> 02:25:45,000 Speaker 1: there's every economic crisis, we can sort of we can 2658 02:25:45,000 --> 02:25:47,039 Speaker 1: spend money in that field, then the government spending money 2659 02:25:47,040 --> 02:25:50,240 Speaker 1: will drag everyone out of the crisis. But in Keynsian theory, 2660 02:25:50,280 --> 02:25:53,680 Speaker 1: like there's not supposed to be inflation, if like if 2661 02:25:53,760 --> 02:25:56,000 Speaker 1: if unemployment is increasing and there's an economic crisis, there's 2662 02:25:56,000 --> 02:25:58,240 Speaker 1: not supposed to be inflation, and suddenly there's both. So 2663 02:25:58,280 --> 02:26:01,000 Speaker 1: the Cansians have nothing, and they're sort of running around 2664 02:26:02,240 --> 02:26:04,560 Speaker 1: like just with basically like chickens to their head cut 2665 02:26:04,600 --> 02:26:06,240 Speaker 1: off and going, oh god, we have no idea what's happening. 2666 02:26:06,240 --> 02:26:09,200 Speaker 1: We don't know what's happening. And so into this gap 2667 02:26:09,360 --> 02:26:12,800 Speaker 1: steps a bunch of weirdos. And so I'm just gonna 2668 02:26:12,800 --> 02:26:15,760 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go through a few of the theories as 2669 02:26:15,800 --> 02:26:20,119 Speaker 1: to why this crisis happened, because I don't know, and 2670 02:26:20,160 --> 02:26:22,800 Speaker 1: I think there's elements of truth in most of the 2671 02:26:22,879 --> 02:26:26,760 Speaker 1: stories ish kind of, but you know, it's this is 2672 02:26:26,800 --> 02:26:31,360 Speaker 1: extremely complicated and there's still no consensus on it. So 2673 02:26:31,400 --> 02:26:36,160 Speaker 1: I'm gonna start with the most crank, which is so 2674 02:26:36,160 --> 02:26:40,879 Speaker 1: so the Ron Paul people. The whole thing is, yeah, 2675 02:26:41,080 --> 02:26:43,200 Speaker 1: every everything went to ship has been shipped ever since 2676 02:26:43,240 --> 02:26:47,000 Speaker 1: because the usband and the gold standard and like they're 2677 02:26:47,120 --> 02:26:50,879 Speaker 1: right into the extent that this happens. So basically Nixon 2678 02:26:50,879 --> 02:26:52,320 Speaker 1: has been trying to pay for the Vietnam War and 2679 02:26:52,360 --> 02:26:54,879 Speaker 1: he can't. And you know, the the U. S Dollar 2680 02:26:54,920 --> 02:26:56,920 Speaker 1: has been pegged to a certain amount of gold, right, 2681 02:26:56,959 --> 02:26:58,200 Speaker 1: and you can do this thing where if you get it, 2682 02:26:58,240 --> 02:26:59,800 Speaker 1: you have an American dollar, you can exchange it for 2683 02:26:59,800 --> 02:27:04,320 Speaker 1: them out of gold, and so travels the goal just's like, Okay, 2684 02:27:04,320 --> 02:27:06,240 Speaker 1: we're just gonna we're gonna take all of this gold. 2685 02:27:06,360 --> 02:27:07,800 Speaker 1: And so if he does in the US starts running 2686 02:27:07,800 --> 02:27:09,760 Speaker 1: out of gold and so bye bye by. In the 2687 02:27:09,760 --> 02:27:12,279 Speaker 1: early seventies, Nixon is like, fun, this you can't actually 2688 02:27:12,560 --> 02:27:16,199 Speaker 1: exchange dollars for gold anymore. And now every single libertarian 2689 02:27:16,400 --> 02:27:21,960 Speaker 1: starts every rant with fiat currency. But you know this, 2690 02:27:21,959 --> 02:27:24,160 Speaker 1: this this does have an effect on the economy, which 2691 02:27:24,160 --> 02:27:27,960 Speaker 1: we'll talk about more in the bit um. There's you know, 2692 02:27:28,000 --> 02:27:30,400 Speaker 1: there's there's there's a lot of other explanations for this 2693 02:27:30,760 --> 02:27:34,040 Speaker 1: um the modern monetary three people if you listen to them, 2694 02:27:34,120 --> 02:27:38,160 Speaker 1: and also Peter Thiel. Weirdly, I will argue, oh, it's 2695 02:27:38,160 --> 02:27:40,480 Speaker 1: all because of the oil shock, because oil prices increased, 2696 02:27:42,160 --> 02:27:46,840 Speaker 1: neoliberals will spend Neo liberal Essentially, they blame too much 2697 02:27:46,879 --> 02:27:50,920 Speaker 1: government spending welfare programs and then wages being too high, 2698 02:27:51,000 --> 02:27:57,240 Speaker 1: and also bad monetary policy. There's like an entire there's 2699 02:27:57,280 --> 02:28:00,240 Speaker 1: there's like seventeen different Marxist explanations for it, some of 2700 02:28:00,280 --> 02:28:03,920 Speaker 1: which are I'll talk about like one and a half 2701 02:28:03,959 --> 02:28:09,080 Speaker 1: of them, um that are more plausible. One of the 2702 02:28:09,160 --> 02:28:14,600 Speaker 1: explanations has to do with how essentially, so the other 2703 02:28:14,600 --> 02:28:17,040 Speaker 1: thing that's happening in the sixty seventies is that minorities 2704 02:28:17,040 --> 02:28:19,080 Speaker 1: and women are entering the workplace and are you know, 2705 02:28:20,320 --> 02:28:23,400 Speaker 1: actually demanding to be paid the wages that white men 2706 02:28:23,400 --> 02:28:26,959 Speaker 1: have been being paid. And corporations essentially just can't afford this. 2707 02:28:27,560 --> 02:28:30,240 Speaker 1: And so you know that they have two choices. It's 2708 02:28:30,240 --> 02:28:32,160 Speaker 1: either we pay these people actual wages or we just 2709 02:28:32,240 --> 02:28:36,959 Speaker 1: murder everyone, and they took the second one. So it's 2710 02:28:36,720 --> 02:28:38,840 Speaker 1: something that that has also been happening through this whole 2711 02:28:38,840 --> 02:28:42,440 Speaker 1: period is that profit rates and manufacturing just keep collapsing. 2712 02:28:43,240 --> 02:28:45,480 Speaker 1: And there there's there's a whole thing here about some 2713 02:28:45,720 --> 02:28:49,760 Speaker 1: Marxist theory stuff, But the thing that's important is that 2714 02:28:50,560 --> 02:28:52,240 Speaker 1: that and this this has also happened in the seventies. 2715 02:28:52,280 --> 02:28:57,320 Speaker 1: Eventually you hit a point where manufacturing growth becomes zero sum. 2716 02:28:57,360 --> 02:29:00,520 Speaker 1: And you know, so you can have manufacturing growth in 2717 02:29:00,600 --> 02:29:02,880 Speaker 1: one country, but you can't have it in another because 2718 02:29:03,200 --> 02:29:05,960 Speaker 1: at a certain point you're producing too much stuff and 2719 02:29:05,959 --> 02:29:08,720 Speaker 1: people start getting kicked out of the labor process. And 2720 02:29:08,760 --> 02:29:10,440 Speaker 1: this has a bunch of effects. One is that it 2721 02:29:10,440 --> 02:29:12,000 Speaker 1: means you get a bunch of people who are employed 2722 02:29:12,000 --> 02:29:16,880 Speaker 1: and too. It means that there's just a bunch of 2723 02:29:16,920 --> 02:29:19,600 Speaker 1: money floating around that nobody can actually invest in places. 2724 02:29:19,640 --> 02:29:21,360 Speaker 1: And this is you know, like all of the weird 2725 02:29:21,400 --> 02:29:26,879 Speaker 1: stuff the Saudis do, it is just basically from this 2726 02:29:26,879 --> 02:29:28,920 Speaker 1: this money. There's a wholes these whole piles of oil 2727 02:29:28,959 --> 02:29:31,680 Speaker 1: money that are just sitting around that nobody convest in anything. 2728 02:29:32,800 --> 02:29:35,800 Speaker 1: And that's going to cause you know, that that that 2729 02:29:35,800 --> 02:29:37,240 Speaker 1: that that that that's going to cause a lot of 2730 02:29:37,280 --> 02:29:43,600 Speaker 1: stuff down the road. But for now, yeah, we'll talk 2731 02:29:43,640 --> 02:29:45,800 Speaker 1: about the dead crisis and causes sort of next episode. 2732 02:29:45,800 --> 02:29:49,160 Speaker 1: But for now, I'm going to try to pull all 2733 02:29:49,200 --> 02:29:51,600 Speaker 1: of these together and like have something, have a coherent 2734 02:29:51,640 --> 02:29:55,400 Speaker 1: thing that makes sense, which is essentially, by by the 2735 02:29:55,480 --> 02:29:58,360 Speaker 1: end of the seventies, profit rate or declining, and then 2736 02:29:58,480 --> 02:30:01,200 Speaker 1: Nixon pulls you know, Nick and pulls the dollar off 2737 02:30:01,200 --> 02:30:05,480 Speaker 1: the gold standard, and this causes the value the dollars 2738 02:30:05,560 --> 02:30:08,680 Speaker 1: is plunge. And this this is the thing that sets 2739 02:30:08,720 --> 02:30:12,160 Speaker 1: off the nine oil crisis. So the any thing the 2740 02:30:12,240 --> 02:30:14,320 Speaker 1: oil crisis is weird because it's not an oil crisis. 2741 02:30:14,520 --> 02:30:16,280 Speaker 1: Every everyone looks at the groil crisis and it goes, oh, 2742 02:30:16,320 --> 02:30:18,320 Speaker 1: it's an oil crisis. The crisis because there wasn't enough oil, 2743 02:30:18,360 --> 02:30:20,120 Speaker 1: and it's it's not it's nothing to do with that 2744 02:30:20,320 --> 02:30:22,039 Speaker 1: is literally nothing to do a supply of oil at all. 2745 02:30:22,959 --> 02:30:27,879 Speaker 1: What actually happens is that so you have OPEC, right. 2746 02:30:27,920 --> 02:30:29,680 Speaker 1: OPEC is this sort of is the Alliance of Oil 2747 02:30:29,720 --> 02:30:34,759 Speaker 1: Producing Cartels UM and they have this extremely complicated system 2748 02:30:34,760 --> 02:30:39,280 Speaker 1: where they they sell oil to oil companies and then 2749 02:30:39,320 --> 02:30:41,400 Speaker 1: the oil companies sell that oil, did they refine it 2750 02:30:41,440 --> 02:30:44,160 Speaker 1: and sell it to you, and they have this incredibly 2751 02:30:44,160 --> 02:30:51,320 Speaker 1: convoluted tax structured on it. And eventually, so the oil 2752 02:30:51,320 --> 02:30:54,720 Speaker 1: companies are having to, like the price of oil starts 2753 02:30:54,760 --> 02:30:57,400 Speaker 1: to rise, and the oil companies are basically just taking 2754 02:30:57,400 --> 02:30:59,520 Speaker 1: it all off the profit from this, and so OPEC goes, Okay, 2755 02:30:59,520 --> 02:31:02,039 Speaker 1: you guys are gon to pay taxes, and the oil 2756 02:31:02,080 --> 02:31:07,400 Speaker 1: companies just refuse, and so OPEC just unilaterally, just you know, 2757 02:31:07,560 --> 02:31:09,760 Speaker 1: OPEC just unilaterally is like, Okay, you guys are gonna 2758 02:31:09,800 --> 02:31:11,560 Speaker 1: pay taxes, and we're gonna make you pay taxes by 2759 02:31:11,879 --> 02:31:14,520 Speaker 1: by just increasing the price that we sell you oil at. 2760 02:31:15,959 --> 02:31:19,800 Speaker 1: And this gets remembered as like OPEC increasing the price 2761 02:31:19,840 --> 02:31:21,640 Speaker 1: of oil, even though it was literally just them saying 2762 02:31:21,680 --> 02:31:27,440 Speaker 1: you're gonna pay taxes. Now, this is the part that's 2763 02:31:27,560 --> 02:31:32,200 Speaker 1: very weird, which is that, Okay, so if you do heard, 2764 02:31:32,200 --> 02:31:35,400 Speaker 1: you too, heard of the oil crisis, like the story yeah, yeah, yeah, 2765 02:31:35,400 --> 02:31:38,320 Speaker 1: I mean I are the way it's always gone in textbooks, 2766 02:31:38,320 --> 02:31:40,760 Speaker 1: as you talk about like the stagflation of the seventies 2767 02:31:40,840 --> 02:31:43,800 Speaker 1: and the fucking you know, lines of cars at gas 2768 02:31:43,800 --> 02:31:48,240 Speaker 1: stations going back blocks because OPEC factory. And yeah, that's 2769 02:31:48,240 --> 02:31:50,959 Speaker 1: how it's always framed, is that, like there's this big 2770 02:31:51,480 --> 02:31:55,680 Speaker 1: political crisis over OPEC that led the gas supply getting throttled, 2771 02:31:55,720 --> 02:31:57,480 Speaker 1: and it came at a time when the economy had 2772 02:31:57,520 --> 02:32:00,680 Speaker 1: already slowed down and everything got terrible. And then a 2773 02:32:00,720 --> 02:32:04,360 Speaker 1: few years later we got RoboCop. Yeah, well we did 2774 02:32:04,400 --> 02:32:06,800 Speaker 1: get a pop. But the important thing about the story 2775 02:32:06,920 --> 02:32:09,720 Speaker 1: is that every single thing about that story is wrong, 2776 02:32:10,600 --> 02:32:12,879 Speaker 1: every part of it. Well, I mean there were lines 2777 02:32:12,920 --> 02:32:14,520 Speaker 1: at gas station, Yeah, I mean there there are lines 2778 02:32:14,520 --> 02:32:16,600 Speaker 1: of gas stations, but the lines at the gas stations 2779 02:32:16,600 --> 02:32:19,280 Speaker 1: have literally nothing to do with OPEC. Wh's just nothing. 2780 02:32:20,040 --> 02:32:25,480 Speaker 1: So on October six, the Arab members of of OPEC 2781 02:32:25,640 --> 02:32:27,760 Speaker 1: are like, fuck it, We're gonna make the oil companies 2782 02:32:27,760 --> 02:32:29,440 Speaker 1: pay more for oil. And then the rest of the 2783 02:32:29,480 --> 02:32:34,440 Speaker 1: rest of OPE follows them. Now two days later, is it? Yeah? 2784 02:32:34,560 --> 02:32:38,480 Speaker 1: The next day there is a completely unrelated thing to 2785 02:32:38,600 --> 02:32:40,720 Speaker 1: all of this, which is that while while this is 2786 02:32:40,760 --> 02:32:44,000 Speaker 1: going on, the Yankapoor War starts, and so Egypt and 2787 02:32:44,120 --> 02:32:48,400 Speaker 1: Syria attack Israel um basical attack the Israel occupation forces 2788 02:32:48,400 --> 02:32:51,760 Speaker 1: in their country, and the war is going really badly 2789 02:32:51,800 --> 02:32:53,680 Speaker 1: for them there, I mean it's it's I mean, it's 2790 02:32:53,680 --> 02:32:55,280 Speaker 1: not going it's not going as badly as like the 2791 02:32:55,360 --> 02:32:57,760 Speaker 1: previous wars had gone for the air powers, but it's 2792 02:32:57,760 --> 02:33:01,240 Speaker 1: not going great. And so on October seven and teeth six, 2793 02:33:01,280 --> 02:33:04,360 Speaker 1: Arab oil producing countries declare if they're they're cutting the 2794 02:33:04,360 --> 02:33:06,320 Speaker 1: amount of oil they exported by five percent per month 2795 02:33:06,400 --> 02:33:10,280 Speaker 1: until Israel returns his territories it occupies St. Seven and 2796 02:33:10,360 --> 02:33:13,840 Speaker 1: they have an embargo on the US. But and this 2797 02:33:14,120 --> 02:33:16,560 Speaker 1: is the very important part. This has nothing to do 2798 02:33:16,600 --> 02:33:20,000 Speaker 1: with OPEC. This is not opaque at all. It's not this, 2799 02:33:20,080 --> 02:33:21,440 Speaker 1: this is this is this is just a couple of 2800 02:33:21,520 --> 02:33:23,520 Speaker 1: random Arab countries are like, we're going to do this. 2801 02:33:24,160 --> 02:33:26,440 Speaker 1: And you know, and I think when I think is 2802 02:33:26,480 --> 02:33:29,039 Speaker 1: interesting about Robert, what you're talking about is OPEC factory. 2803 02:33:29,120 --> 02:33:31,720 Speaker 1: You know, is how this gets remembered and this this 2804 02:33:31,760 --> 02:33:33,880 Speaker 1: is one of the things that neoliberals used to sort 2805 02:33:33,920 --> 02:33:36,360 Speaker 1: of push their model of the world, right, which is 2806 02:33:36,360 --> 02:33:39,280 Speaker 1: that everything functions off the supply and demands and oh look, 2807 02:33:39,320 --> 02:33:40,880 Speaker 1: hey the Arabs cut the supply of oil and that's 2808 02:33:40,879 --> 02:33:44,560 Speaker 1: why the prices rose. But it's just it's just wrong. 2809 02:33:44,600 --> 02:33:47,039 Speaker 1: It's empirically wrong. The price cut happens, I mean, the 2810 02:33:47,040 --> 02:33:54,160 Speaker 1: price increases happened the day before the oil the price 2811 02:33:54,200 --> 02:33:57,320 Speaker 1: increases the day before the embargo, and the embargo and 2812 02:33:57,360 --> 02:34:00,320 Speaker 1: the oil price. People are different groups, they have nothing 2813 02:34:00,360 --> 02:34:04,000 Speaker 1: to do with each other. But you know, this, this 2814 02:34:04,080 --> 02:34:06,360 Speaker 1: gets sort of systemed like this, this is this is 2815 02:34:06,360 --> 02:34:09,080 Speaker 1: how it's it's remembered and and you know, it's not 2816 02:34:09,120 --> 02:34:12,160 Speaker 1: even just how to remember like the Encyclopedia Britannica has 2817 02:34:12,200 --> 02:34:13,879 Speaker 1: the dates and which all of this stuff happens wrong, 2818 02:34:13,920 --> 02:34:15,640 Speaker 1: they have the sequence of events wrong, like all of 2819 02:34:15,640 --> 02:34:18,360 Speaker 1: the most of the people who write about this remember 2820 02:34:18,360 --> 02:34:20,120 Speaker 1: this whole thing wrong. And and this is this is 2821 02:34:20,160 --> 02:34:22,680 Speaker 1: part of the sort of an enormous propaganda effort death 2822 02:34:22,680 --> 02:34:24,320 Speaker 1: and Deal liberals are able to do at this moment, 2823 02:34:24,400 --> 02:34:27,080 Speaker 1: which is they convince everyone that, oh, yeah, the price 2824 02:34:27,160 --> 02:34:30,640 Speaker 1: increases and the gag. Typically the gas shortages are are 2825 02:34:30,720 --> 02:34:33,600 Speaker 1: are about opeque. But again also like the US only 2826 02:34:33,640 --> 02:34:37,000 Speaker 1: imports like seven percent of its oil from from the 2827 02:34:37,000 --> 02:34:39,680 Speaker 1: countries who are doing the embargo at this point. So 2828 02:34:39,760 --> 02:34:42,080 Speaker 1: the actual thing that's going on has to do with prices. 2829 02:34:42,080 --> 02:34:43,959 Speaker 1: It's a weird thing as do with price controls and 2830 02:34:44,320 --> 02:34:46,360 Speaker 1: gas companies are hoarding gas because they don't want to 2831 02:34:46,360 --> 02:34:49,320 Speaker 1: sell at price control levels and stuff like that. But 2832 02:34:49,760 --> 02:34:53,039 Speaker 1: you know, the oil price increases, you know, the yeah, 2833 02:34:53,080 --> 02:34:55,000 Speaker 1: like it it is bad, Like the price of oil 2834 02:34:55,080 --> 02:34:57,560 Speaker 1: does go up and there are shortages, but it has 2835 02:34:57,600 --> 02:35:01,320 Speaker 1: nothing to do with like there's nothing to do with 2836 02:35:01,320 --> 02:35:04,000 Speaker 1: the embargo has nothing to do with you know, like 2837 02:35:04,080 --> 02:35:07,960 Speaker 1: the supply of oil going down. It's just companies didn't 2838 02:35:08,000 --> 02:35:09,640 Speaker 1: want to pay taxes, and so they started holding the 2839 02:35:09,640 --> 02:35:11,400 Speaker 1: oil instead of selling it, and they passed the price 2840 02:35:11,480 --> 02:35:14,120 Speaker 1: the tax increase onto the consumers instead of paying it. 2841 02:35:14,920 --> 02:35:17,320 Speaker 1: And as we talked about before, once this sort of 2842 02:35:17,360 --> 02:35:19,879 Speaker 1: like tax increase goes in that OPEC that well some 2843 02:35:19,920 --> 02:35:21,800 Speaker 1: of the open countries want to do goes into place, 2844 02:35:21,840 --> 02:35:24,880 Speaker 1: like the price of oil does increase, and this does 2845 02:35:24,920 --> 02:35:27,120 Speaker 1: fund the economy even more. But the economy and really 2846 02:35:27,120 --> 02:35:30,920 Speaker 1: even sort of a mess before this, and it has 2847 02:35:31,800 --> 02:35:35,000 Speaker 1: one other very important effect, and you know this is 2848 02:35:35,640 --> 02:35:37,560 Speaker 1: you know, I guess, I guess. The theme of this 2849 02:35:37,600 --> 02:35:39,600 Speaker 1: episode is that the oil embargo matters. But the oil 2850 02:35:39,600 --> 02:35:42,680 Speaker 1: embargo matters because people think it matters, not because they 2851 02:35:42,680 --> 02:35:45,720 Speaker 1: did anything and the other. So it matters in the 2852 02:35:45,800 --> 02:35:48,280 Speaker 1: US because everyone thinks that, oh, the scary Arab nations 2853 02:35:48,280 --> 02:35:50,920 Speaker 1: are coming for us, But it matters in the rest 2854 02:35:51,000 --> 02:35:56,400 Speaker 1: of the world because everyone else looks at this and goes, wait, 2855 02:35:56,480 --> 02:36:00,480 Speaker 1: hold on. You can actually use commodities, essincially use commodity 2856 02:36:00,520 --> 02:36:05,600 Speaker 1: prices are like countries that like have raw you know, 2857 02:36:05,720 --> 02:36:11,080 Speaker 1: commodities can use this control to actually go fight, you know, 2858 02:36:11,360 --> 02:36:12,879 Speaker 1: to like to go fight the West and go fight 2859 02:36:12,879 --> 02:36:15,120 Speaker 1: the capitalists and go like, you know, get money for themselves. 2860 02:36:17,040 --> 02:36:21,640 Speaker 1: And this leads us into something Robert Harrison to have 2861 02:36:21,680 --> 02:36:23,680 Speaker 1: you there, you ever heard of the G seventy seven. 2862 02:36:25,640 --> 02:36:28,680 Speaker 1: Uh that like the seventies seven countries that have the 2863 02:36:28,680 --> 02:36:32,480 Speaker 1: most money. Well that that's the that's the G seven. 2864 02:36:32,959 --> 02:36:35,560 Speaker 1: Well yeah, but I was, I was seven might be 2865 02:36:35,640 --> 02:36:39,080 Speaker 1: just a longer list. So yeah. So so this is 2866 02:36:39,160 --> 02:36:40,840 Speaker 1: this is the other thing from this period that just 2867 02:36:41,000 --> 02:36:43,200 Speaker 1: is completely lost as almost completely lost to history. And 2868 02:36:43,240 --> 02:36:45,600 Speaker 1: the seventy seven is actually still around. But what what 2869 02:36:45,720 --> 02:36:50,840 Speaker 1: they are was so in the sixties, you know, you 2870 02:36:51,120 --> 02:36:54,360 Speaker 1: have all of these countries that have recently gained independence, 2871 02:36:54,400 --> 02:36:57,520 Speaker 1: and all these countries have gatting deependence um from their 2872 02:36:57,520 --> 02:37:01,120 Speaker 1: sort of colonial overlords, and they start to band together 2873 02:37:01,200 --> 02:37:04,040 Speaker 1: into basically a voting block in the u N. And 2874 02:37:04,120 --> 02:37:05,840 Speaker 1: also this is the other the other weird part about 2875 02:37:05,840 --> 02:37:08,160 Speaker 1: the story is that so in the seventies and sixties 2876 02:37:08,320 --> 02:37:11,880 Speaker 1: seventies particularly, the un actually matters like it's it's a 2877 02:37:11,959 --> 02:37:14,120 Speaker 1: it's a it's a thing that people. There was that 2878 02:37:14,200 --> 02:37:17,520 Speaker 1: like twenties years after World War Two, where people were 2879 02:37:18,000 --> 02:37:20,760 Speaker 1: maybe I mean a good example of the degree to 2880 02:37:20,800 --> 02:37:24,280 Speaker 1: which the u N actually used to be meaningful. Is 2881 02:37:24,320 --> 02:37:28,240 Speaker 1: watched the first Street Fighter movie. Um, because the good 2882 02:37:28,240 --> 02:37:30,520 Speaker 1: guys and that are clearly based off the u N 2883 02:37:30,720 --> 02:37:33,960 Speaker 1: and nobody thinks it's ridiculous that the United Nations are 2884 02:37:34,000 --> 02:37:37,560 Speaker 1: actually doing something. Um, it's fine to have Jean Claude 2885 02:37:37,600 --> 02:37:39,640 Speaker 1: van dam And be the leader of the United Nations 2886 02:37:39,720 --> 02:37:42,160 Speaker 1: fist fighting a guy that that makes total sense in 2887 02:37:42,200 --> 02:37:45,560 Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties and you know, and so in part 2888 02:37:45,560 --> 02:37:48,200 Speaker 1: of talk about this war next episode. But basically, so, 2889 02:37:48,280 --> 02:37:50,640 Speaker 1: the reason the UN is a joke right now is 2890 02:37:50,720 --> 02:37:54,400 Speaker 1: because of what the US was doing to stop the 2891 02:37:54,440 --> 02:37:57,160 Speaker 1: G seventy seven from doing anything. I mean, I would 2892 02:37:57,240 --> 02:38:01,800 Speaker 1: argue that massive failures in ruwan To and uh Bosnia 2893 02:38:01,920 --> 02:38:04,119 Speaker 1: had a huge impact on that too. Yeah, I think 2894 02:38:04,160 --> 02:38:06,240 Speaker 1: the genocides go down and people are like, well, what 2895 02:38:06,280 --> 02:38:09,000 Speaker 1: are these guys doing? But yeah, yeah, yeah, well this 2896 02:38:09,040 --> 02:38:10,879 Speaker 1: is this is this is how they got dysfunctional to 2897 02:38:10,879 --> 02:38:13,039 Speaker 1: the point where you can get that yeah, which is 2898 02:38:13,240 --> 02:38:16,960 Speaker 1: so so okay. So you have, you know, and a 2899 02:38:16,959 --> 02:38:19,360 Speaker 1: bunch of countries that call themselves, you know, the term 2900 02:38:19,400 --> 02:38:22,400 Speaker 1: they used for themselves is the Third World, and they 2901 02:38:22,400 --> 02:38:24,320 Speaker 1: come together the form this group and it's it's it's 2902 02:38:24,320 --> 02:38:27,480 Speaker 1: a really weird ideological mixed bag. Like I mean, you 2903 02:38:27,480 --> 02:38:30,119 Speaker 1: have you know, you have you have like actual socialists 2904 02:38:30,120 --> 02:38:34,200 Speaker 1: like Tanzaniyears and Michael Boley and Jamaica. You've also got 2905 02:38:34,240 --> 02:38:38,840 Speaker 1: like Gadaffi and the Bathists and like both was a 2906 02:38:38,920 --> 02:38:48,640 Speaker 1: socialist come on Paradise, Kadafi Libya you know, okay, my, my, my, my, 2907 02:38:48,640 --> 02:38:51,480 Speaker 1: My most contrarian hot take is that Salat Jaded was 2908 02:38:51,520 --> 02:38:53,720 Speaker 1: like actually kind of an m l who was that 2909 02:38:53,760 --> 02:38:56,600 Speaker 1: he was He was briefly the Bathist in charge of 2910 02:38:56,640 --> 02:39:00,200 Speaker 1: Syria and then he got overthrown by Sad But both 2911 02:39:00,200 --> 02:39:06,000 Speaker 1: of them, there's there's definite like actual like Marxist, you know, Linen, 2912 02:39:06,160 --> 02:39:08,640 Speaker 1: there's something like especially in the old school Bathists, like 2913 02:39:08,640 --> 02:39:11,400 Speaker 1: there were aspects of that, there was socialism kind of 2914 02:39:11,480 --> 02:39:15,720 Speaker 1: within it. It just it would be nonsense like for example, 2915 02:39:15,760 --> 02:39:21,160 Speaker 1: called Saddam Hussein's boss. Yeah yeah, and you know, and 2916 02:39:21,160 --> 02:39:22,480 Speaker 1: you can already see like that this is this is 2917 02:39:22,520 --> 02:39:23,920 Speaker 1: this is this is a real grab back. And you 2918 02:39:23,959 --> 02:39:25,760 Speaker 1: have there's also just a bunch of random Latin American 2919 02:39:25,800 --> 02:39:28,920 Speaker 1: countries like none of whom you can call socialists. And 2920 02:39:28,959 --> 02:39:33,840 Speaker 1: then there's also Saudi Arabia and Thailand or in this group. Okay, 2921 02:39:34,000 --> 02:39:35,920 Speaker 1: to get a sense of how fractus this is, India 2922 02:39:35,920 --> 02:39:38,160 Speaker 1: and Pakistan are also both part of this and they 2923 02:39:38,160 --> 02:39:40,560 Speaker 1: fight too full scale wars while they're both in the 2924 02:39:40,600 --> 02:39:42,880 Speaker 1: G seventy seven. Actually that's not true. There's two full 2925 02:39:42,879 --> 02:39:45,160 Speaker 1: scale wars and then there's like another half war they 2926 02:39:45,160 --> 02:39:48,200 Speaker 1: fight in the nineties. This yeah, like all all the 2927 02:39:48,200 --> 02:39:50,440 Speaker 1: people in this thing are fighting, are literally fighting wars 2928 02:39:50,440 --> 02:39:53,640 Speaker 1: against each other. It's kind of a mess, and you know, 2929 02:39:53,640 --> 02:39:56,240 Speaker 1: it's fun. It's fun. In in in the mid sixties and 2930 02:39:56,600 --> 02:39:59,320 Speaker 1: until nineteen seventy four, it's kind of their Their whole 2931 02:39:59,360 --> 02:40:02,640 Speaker 1: thing is we have moral authority like where yeah, like 2932 02:40:02,640 --> 02:40:04,879 Speaker 1: where you know where we're like we we we we 2933 02:40:04,959 --> 02:40:08,160 Speaker 1: have the authority of all of these nations have colonizings 2934 02:40:08,200 --> 02:40:09,720 Speaker 1: for a long time, and we're going to use that. 2935 02:40:11,120 --> 02:40:14,760 Speaker 1: But in the seventies, you know that the oil embargo happens, 2936 02:40:15,240 --> 02:40:18,360 Speaker 1: and a lot like most I think all most of 2937 02:40:18,400 --> 02:40:23,440 Speaker 1: the OPEC states are are are are in um Are, 2938 02:40:23,520 --> 02:40:27,040 Speaker 1: are are in the G seventy seven, and they look 2939 02:40:27,040 --> 02:40:29,320 Speaker 1: at they look at the oil embargo and they look 2940 02:40:29,360 --> 02:40:33,520 Speaker 1: at OPEC raising prices and they go, wait, we can 2941 02:40:33,520 --> 02:40:36,720 Speaker 1: do this too. In the OPEC states are like, oh, hey, 2942 02:40:36,720 --> 02:40:38,560 Speaker 1: we can use this to push the hood, you know, 2943 02:40:38,640 --> 02:40:40,560 Speaker 1: we can use to like push the whole power of 2944 02:40:40,640 --> 02:40:43,520 Speaker 1: like of the Third World. And they they they're planned 2945 02:40:43,560 --> 02:40:46,280 Speaker 1: to do this is something called the New International Economic Order, 2946 02:40:47,000 --> 02:40:48,760 Speaker 1: which is also something that no one has ever heard 2947 02:40:48,800 --> 02:40:55,400 Speaker 1: of that is extremely important. That has just the spoilerer 2948 02:40:55,520 --> 02:40:58,400 Speaker 1: is that this this movement gets crushed so thoroughly that 2949 02:40:58,440 --> 02:41:00,320 Speaker 1: nobody knows what the New Economic Order is and the 2950 02:41:00,360 --> 02:41:03,480 Speaker 1: Third World is now a slur. But you know, the 2951 02:41:03,720 --> 02:41:07,320 Speaker 1: thing that they're trying to do is create a it 2952 02:41:07,400 --> 02:41:10,440 Speaker 1: calls the New International Economic Order a trade union of 2953 02:41:10,480 --> 02:41:13,199 Speaker 1: the poor, and so it's it's this thing they're trying 2954 02:41:13,240 --> 02:41:16,800 Speaker 1: to get passed through the u N that would you know, 2955 02:41:16,879 --> 02:41:19,120 Speaker 1: just designed to sort of ensure the economic sovereignty of 2956 02:41:19,160 --> 02:41:22,480 Speaker 1: these developing nations. Um and I'm going to read a 2957 02:41:22,520 --> 02:41:27,199 Speaker 1: list of the stuff that's in here. Um So A 2958 02:41:27,200 --> 02:41:30,880 Speaker 1: an absolute right of states to control the extraction and 2959 02:41:30,920 --> 02:41:34,360 Speaker 1: marketing of their domestic natural resources be the establishment and 2960 02:41:34,400 --> 02:41:37,840 Speaker 1: recognition of state manage managed resource cartels to stabilize and 2961 02:41:37,879 --> 02:41:42,720 Speaker 1: raise commodity prices. See the Regulation of Transnational Corporations D 2962 02:41:43,080 --> 02:41:46,560 Speaker 1: no strings attached, technology transfers from north to south, e 2963 02:41:47,200 --> 02:41:51,200 Speaker 1: the granting of preferential trade preferences to countries in the south, 2964 02:41:51,240 --> 02:41:54,680 Speaker 1: and f forgiveness for for certain debts that states in 2965 02:41:54,720 --> 02:41:58,560 Speaker 1: the south ode to the north. So this is like 2966 02:42:00,360 --> 02:42:03,920 Speaker 1: at this thing, if the international economical Order had ever 2967 02:42:03,959 --> 02:42:06,880 Speaker 1: been implemented at all, it would have completely reversed the 2968 02:42:06,959 --> 02:42:11,280 Speaker 1: basically completely reverse the balance of economic power, shifting it 2969 02:42:11,320 --> 02:42:15,520 Speaker 1: basically from countries like the US, like you know, Western Europe, 2970 02:42:15,560 --> 02:42:19,520 Speaker 1: like Japan that are these giant manufacturing powerhouses, two countries 2971 02:42:19,560 --> 02:42:21,920 Speaker 1: that produce you know, raw materials, and there would have 2972 02:42:21,920 --> 02:42:23,320 Speaker 1: you know, and the everything that would have happened from 2973 02:42:23,360 --> 02:42:27,040 Speaker 1: this is you have these the no streams, you have 2974 02:42:27,160 --> 02:42:30,480 Speaker 1: a debt relief for the global South, and also these 2975 02:42:30,720 --> 02:42:37,560 Speaker 1: technology transfers. And the plan is basically to create a 2976 02:42:37,560 --> 02:42:40,400 Speaker 1: bunch of mini opex for just not even many opus. 2977 02:42:40,440 --> 02:42:42,400 Speaker 1: Create opex basically for every commodity. So you know, you 2978 02:42:42,480 --> 02:42:45,879 Speaker 1: have like an opaque, but it's for like box site 2979 02:42:45,959 --> 02:42:49,800 Speaker 1: or like copper, and you know they would use they 2980 02:42:49,800 --> 02:42:53,199 Speaker 1: would you know, you have all these opex and each 2981 02:42:53,200 --> 02:42:55,080 Speaker 1: one of them uses their power and they all cooperate 2982 02:42:55,080 --> 02:42:57,320 Speaker 1: to to to make sure that there's a stable price 2983 02:42:57,480 --> 02:43:01,440 Speaker 1: for for all these commodities. And another part of this 2984 02:43:01,760 --> 02:43:04,480 Speaker 1: is that it's supposed to basically enshrine the right of 2985 02:43:04,520 --> 02:43:07,640 Speaker 1: countries to be able to just like nationalized resource companies. 2986 02:43:07,920 --> 02:43:09,560 Speaker 1: So you know, you have like a British oil company. 2987 02:43:09,680 --> 02:43:11,160 Speaker 1: I was like, well, we just take it out now 2988 02:43:11,160 --> 02:43:15,360 Speaker 1: it's ours. And the threat of this is great enough 2989 02:43:15,440 --> 02:43:17,640 Speaker 1: that if you read conservatives in the era, they will 2990 02:43:17,640 --> 02:43:20,440 Speaker 1: say things like the Soviet Union is no longer a threat. 2991 02:43:20,480 --> 02:43:24,720 Speaker 1: The greatest danger to the West today is the Yeah, yeah, 2992 02:43:24,920 --> 02:43:29,080 Speaker 1: this is this, Yeah, it's it's these these people are enormal. Yeah, no, 2993 02:43:29,080 --> 02:43:30,959 Speaker 1: no one even rivers this anymore. And and it's it's 2994 02:43:30,959 --> 02:43:35,039 Speaker 1: because largely it's because of how just unbelievably badly these 2995 02:43:35,040 --> 02:43:38,080 Speaker 1: guys got stopped. Um, you know. And one of the 2996 02:43:38,120 --> 02:43:39,760 Speaker 1: other things that happens out the product of this is 2997 02:43:39,840 --> 02:43:42,000 Speaker 1: this is where the G seven comes from. And it's 2998 02:43:42,000 --> 02:43:45,440 Speaker 1: originally and I think there's another thing, Yeah, the other 2999 02:43:45,440 --> 02:43:47,160 Speaker 1: fun part about this, So the G seven is originally 3000 02:43:47,200 --> 02:43:49,280 Speaker 1: a secret alliance, Like through this whole through the whole seventies, 3001 02:43:49,280 --> 02:43:52,039 Speaker 1: nobody knows G seven exists. It's basically it starts as 3002 02:43:52,080 --> 02:43:55,080 Speaker 1: this like secret meeting of a bunch of finance ministers. 3003 02:43:55,120 --> 02:43:58,520 Speaker 1: Eventually they add UH, Canada and I think Japan too, 3004 02:43:58,560 --> 02:44:01,640 Speaker 1: and it goes up to seven members. And you know, 3005 02:44:02,200 --> 02:44:03,720 Speaker 1: they have a couple of things they're trying to deal with. 3006 02:44:03,760 --> 02:44:06,160 Speaker 1: They're trying to deal with the economic collapse. But one 3007 02:44:06,240 --> 02:44:07,760 Speaker 1: of the big things, like one of the biggest things 3008 02:44:07,760 --> 02:44:09,640 Speaker 1: they're dealing with, is the G seventy seven and OPEQ 3009 02:44:10,600 --> 02:44:13,880 Speaker 1: And this this the result of this is this, these 3010 02:44:14,080 --> 02:44:18,680 Speaker 1: enormous series of fights in UH implausibly the United Nations 3011 02:44:18,680 --> 02:44:22,720 Speaker 1: Conference on Trade and Development, which is I think this 3012 02:44:22,720 --> 02:44:24,600 Speaker 1: this is this is the last time ever that the 3013 02:44:24,640 --> 02:44:26,840 Speaker 1: fate of the entire world would be decided in a 3014 02:44:27,000 --> 02:44:30,360 Speaker 1: battle in like a subcommittee of the U N And 3015 02:44:30,400 --> 02:44:36,560 Speaker 1: there's there's years and years and years of negotiations between well, 3016 02:44:36,560 --> 02:44:39,400 Speaker 1: the G seven hasn't like openly declared itself to G 3017 02:44:39,480 --> 02:44:43,400 Speaker 1: seven is sort of just it's basically the rich European countries. 3018 02:44:43,480 --> 02:44:47,199 Speaker 1: So it's Canada, France, Germany, Italy, the UK, the US 3019 02:44:47,320 --> 02:44:50,800 Speaker 1: and Japan like for form this alliance and are like 3020 02:44:51,800 --> 02:44:54,039 Speaker 1: locked in together in order to stop the G seven 3021 02:44:54,040 --> 02:44:59,360 Speaker 1: from seventy seven from doing anything. And this is this 3022 02:44:59,400 --> 02:45:01,840 Speaker 1: is the This is the other the other crisis that 3023 02:45:01,879 --> 02:45:05,039 Speaker 1: the neoliberals are responding to is it's it's not just 3024 02:45:05,120 --> 02:45:06,720 Speaker 1: and in many ways, this is the one that scares 3025 02:45:06,760 --> 02:45:09,760 Speaker 1: them more because you know, it's not just that there's 3026 02:45:09,760 --> 02:45:11,840 Speaker 1: an economic crisis. It's not just that like capitalists are 3027 02:45:11,840 --> 02:45:15,400 Speaker 1: afraid because of losing money. It's if this stuff goes through, 3028 02:45:16,800 --> 02:45:20,279 Speaker 1: the entire balance of power in the entire global economy 3029 02:45:20,400 --> 02:45:23,080 Speaker 1: is going to change, and it's going to swing into 3030 02:45:23,080 --> 02:45:25,680 Speaker 1: the favor of a bunch of non Western countries and 3031 02:45:26,400 --> 02:45:29,320 Speaker 1: probably more most importantly, from the new Liberals. They're going 3032 02:45:29,360 --> 02:45:32,039 Speaker 1: to enshrine the right of states to take things away 3033 02:45:32,040 --> 02:45:37,600 Speaker 1: from corporations and regulate them. And this is just absolutely 3034 02:45:37,680 --> 02:45:42,879 Speaker 1: completely unacceptable to both the neoliberals and just every single 3035 02:45:42,959 --> 02:45:47,400 Speaker 1: other organization that's even tangentially involved with sort of the 3036 02:45:47,440 --> 02:45:51,280 Speaker 1: Western nations. So the neoliberals, I talked about this a 3037 02:45:51,320 --> 02:45:54,160 Speaker 1: bit in in the last episode, which is that they've 3038 02:45:54,240 --> 02:45:56,959 Speaker 1: been working on a strategy in order to take power 3039 02:45:57,840 --> 02:46:01,600 Speaker 1: that doesn't rely on states. And so what they've been 3040 02:46:01,600 --> 02:46:06,760 Speaker 1: doing for about twenty years is essentially infiltrating and working 3041 02:46:06,760 --> 02:46:10,840 Speaker 1: their way up through it like takes basically basically taking over, uh, 3042 02:46:10,920 --> 02:46:15,560 Speaker 1: the International Monetary Fund in the World Bank who in 3043 02:46:15,600 --> 02:46:18,840 Speaker 1: this period and this is everything I think is very 3044 02:46:19,120 --> 02:46:21,000 Speaker 1: weird and hard to remember, which is that the i 3045 02:46:21,160 --> 02:46:24,080 Speaker 1: m F and the World Bank, like there was a 3046 02:46:24,120 --> 02:46:27,600 Speaker 1: time when they weren't completely evil, Like like the i 3047 02:46:27,720 --> 02:46:29,520 Speaker 1: m F was basically set up to make sure that 3048 02:46:29,560 --> 02:46:31,680 Speaker 1: countries wouldn't just run out of money, right, I was 3049 02:46:31,680 --> 02:46:33,600 Speaker 1: supposed to give people like yeah, and the World Bank 3050 02:46:33,760 --> 02:46:36,800 Speaker 1: and it's it's turned into sort of this like international 3051 02:46:36,920 --> 02:46:41,320 Speaker 1: debt system for moorer countries where they're always and being 3052 02:46:41,360 --> 02:46:44,879 Speaker 1: forced into austerity measures in the like yeah, yeah, and that. 3053 02:46:44,959 --> 02:46:46,800 Speaker 1: But that that didn't used to be true. It used 3054 02:46:46,800 --> 02:46:48,879 Speaker 1: to be you know, the the i m F had 3055 02:46:48,879 --> 02:46:50,520 Speaker 1: a bunch of Kandians in it and sit same with 3056 02:46:50,560 --> 02:46:52,520 Speaker 1: the World Bank, and both both the i m F 3057 02:46:52,520 --> 02:46:55,120 Speaker 1: and the World Bank's leadership for a lot of this 3058 02:46:55,240 --> 02:47:00,680 Speaker 1: period wanted to negotiate and you and I think this 3059 02:47:00,720 --> 02:47:02,200 Speaker 1: is this, this is this is this is where We're 3060 02:47:02,200 --> 02:47:07,600 Speaker 1: gonna leave it here with basically, the the the entire 3061 02:47:07,640 --> 02:47:11,040 Speaker 1: world is an imp apocal crisis. There is the all 3062 02:47:11,080 --> 02:47:14,800 Speaker 1: the economies are collapsing, the the the armies of of 3063 02:47:14,840 --> 02:47:18,360 Speaker 1: the anti colonial like world or are moving and the 3064 02:47:18,800 --> 02:47:21,400 Speaker 1: G seventy seven looks like it's it's literally on the 3065 02:47:21,520 --> 02:47:25,680 Speaker 1: verge of of you know, completely restructuring the economic system 3066 02:47:25,680 --> 02:47:27,600 Speaker 1: in a way that actually would have been slightly more 3067 02:47:27,680 --> 02:47:31,400 Speaker 1: fair and justest than but the system that existed then, 3068 02:47:31,680 --> 02:47:33,760 Speaker 1: which was also infinitely more just and fair and the 3069 02:47:33,760 --> 02:47:36,960 Speaker 1: system that exist now. And next episode we're going to 3070 02:47:37,040 --> 02:47:40,800 Speaker 1: talk about how this all fell apart and how there 3071 02:47:40,840 --> 02:47:44,119 Speaker 1: was a choice in the seventies between either corporations can 3072 02:47:44,160 --> 02:47:49,680 Speaker 1: make money or people can have things. And the product 3073 02:47:49,800 --> 02:47:51,480 Speaker 1: of what the new Liberals are going to do in 3074 02:47:51,520 --> 02:47:54,560 Speaker 1: the next episode is that they're going to their solution 3075 02:47:54,600 --> 02:47:56,600 Speaker 1: to this problem is to tell the entire retched of 3076 02:47:56,640 --> 02:48:02,640 Speaker 1: the earth to each it and die. And yeah, that's 3077 02:48:02,720 --> 02:48:09,760 Speaker 1: that's that's the episode. It's yeah, yeah, history. Yeah, it's 3078 02:48:09,800 --> 02:48:14,320 Speaker 1: it's a fine. Um okay, uh, well we got any 3079 02:48:14,920 --> 02:48:19,400 Speaker 1: we got any any plugables? What do we what do 3080 02:48:19,440 --> 02:48:22,560 Speaker 1: we do at the end of episodes? Sophie, where are we? 3081 02:48:23,440 --> 02:48:25,959 Speaker 1: Thank you? Are we? Thank you for listening. We'll be 3082 02:48:26,000 --> 02:48:29,959 Speaker 1: back on a day at a time. Maybe we're not 3083 02:48:30,040 --> 02:48:33,280 Speaker 1: hearing you, Sophie, I think you're muted. I'm not muted. 3084 02:48:35,080 --> 02:48:38,480 Speaker 1: I'm not muted. Oh, there we go. I'm not muted. 3085 02:48:38,520 --> 02:48:43,840 Speaker 1: I haven't remuted the whole time. We didn't hear you. 3086 02:48:44,160 --> 02:48:48,520 Speaker 1: That's so weird. I said, we'll be back on a 3087 02:48:48,640 --> 02:48:51,720 Speaker 1: day or a time, and yeah, at some point we'll 3088 02:48:51,760 --> 02:48:56,120 Speaker 1: be back. Find us then, uh, and find us tomorrow 3089 02:48:56,200 --> 02:48:58,560 Speaker 1: unless this comes out on Friday, in which case is 3090 02:48:58,959 --> 02:49:02,720 Speaker 1: Friday with your family the ones this is dropping on. 3091 02:49:03,200 --> 02:49:08,760 Speaker 1: Adopt a cat, Adopt two cats, maybe four cats. Adopt 3092 02:49:08,800 --> 02:49:11,600 Speaker 1: four cats. Yeah, get a number of cats greater than 3093 02:49:11,640 --> 02:49:13,520 Speaker 1: the number you have and put them in your house. 3094 02:49:13,920 --> 02:49:28,840 Speaker 1: We'll see you one Monday. Hey, We'll be back Monday, 3095 02:49:28,920 --> 02:49:31,880 Speaker 1: with more episodes every week from now until the heat 3096 02:49:31,920 --> 02:49:34,440 Speaker 1: death of the universe. It Could Happen Here is a 3097 02:49:34,480 --> 02:49:37,320 Speaker 1: production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool 3098 02:49:37,400 --> 02:49:40,080 Speaker 1: Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, 3099 02:49:40,200 --> 02:49:41,920 Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 3100 02:49:41,959 --> 02:49:45,320 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 3101 02:49:45,320 --> 02:49:48,040 Speaker 1: find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at 3102 02:49:48,040 --> 02:49:51,280 Speaker 1: cool zone Media dot com, slash sources. Thanks for listening.