WEBVTT - Getting Back to the Office Means Your Every Move Will Be Tracked 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.880 It's Monday, May eighteen. I'm Oscar Mirrors from the Daily 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:06.760 Dive podcast in Los Angeles, and this is your daily 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:10.720 coronavirus update. As we begin the cautious approach to get 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:13.240 back to work at the office, just know that your 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:16.840 every move will be watched. At some workplaces, thermal cameras 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:19.960 will measure body temperatures of people walking in. At others, 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:23.880 apps will trace workers interactions at the office. A concern 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:26.440 for many is that once these extra measures are put 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:30.120 in place, they may never go away. Conrad Puts here, 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:33.239 reporter at the Wall Street Journal, joins us for how 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:35.880 employers plan on tracking you when you come back. Thanks 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:39.040 for joining us, Conrad, thanks for having me. I want 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:42.440 to talk about what it's gonna look like when all 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:44.640 the states reopen and people start going back to work. 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:47.159 What it's gonna be like to go back to the office, 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:51.520 and unfortunately, your every move is gonna be watched. Employers 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:55.040 are planning a bunch of new tools to measure office interactions, 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:58.480 track workers health, and with all these types of things, 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:02.440 there's always a privacy concerns, but there's also those things 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:05.319 of like, hey, things might seem extreme at first, but 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:07.080 it could be the new normal and you'll get used 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:09.600 to it later. So Conrad tell us a little bit 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:13.120 about what employers are planning to do to get Americans 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:16.160 back to work safely and healthy. So the big thing 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:18.760 I think people need to understand is when we go 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:20.800 back to the office, it's not going to be like before. 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:23.240 It's going to be completely different in a bunch of 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:26.240 different ways. So some of the most basic things that 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:30.279 employers are doing now is just moving chairs around, putting 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:32.680 more distance between desks, just to make sure that there's 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:36.120 more social distancing in the office. Companies are cleaning offices 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:38.880 more intensively. So that's all the basic stuff that the 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:41.280 companies are doing. Pretty much everyone is doing this, but 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:43.720 there's a growing number of companies that are going beyond 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:46.120 that that basically say, if we want employees to be 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:48.120 really safe when they come back to the office, when 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:50.560 you do a lot more. And so what some of 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:54.960 these companies are doing is they're basically including surveillance technology 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:57.800 into their offices. And the idea is if you track 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:01.160 people better, if you traffic temperature, you track who they 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.440 interact with, you get a better handle of how a 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.160 virus might be spending the office and you can prevent 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:10.400 it from spreading to basically keep people safer that way. 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:13.919 One example, at Rockefeller Center, there's an obviously huge office 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:17.360 tower there and the building's owner is gonna set up 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:20.800 thermal cameras so they can measure body temperature as employees 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:23.200 go in. They're also going to develop some type of 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:27.639 mobile app to monitor and score how closely workers are 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:30.960 complying with social distancing. And some of these areas are 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:33.399 where there might be some problems in there. But there's 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:36.440 a lot of companies that are considering developing mobile apps. 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:38.120 That seems to be one of the main players in 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:41.040 all this, and that's a very controversial thing, right. So 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:44.320 the idea behind these mobile apps is if you install 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:46.960 an app in your employees phone that tracks what they 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:49.120 are at any given time, you kind of get a 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:51.519 sense of whether they come into contact with someone who's 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:53.680 maybe infected. So let's say if someone in your office 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:55.960 gets the virus, you can then go back and look 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:57.919 at the app and find every single person who is 0:02:57.919 --> 0:02:59.600 in contact with them, and they need to make sure 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.000 that they say at home as well. So that's the idea. 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:04.840 It's designed to keep people safe, but at the same 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:08.120 time you're also tracking everyone's move at all times, and 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:09.840 there are some people who are concerned about this. I 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:12.519 talked to one company, and as in the House, based 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:15.720 in Massachusetts, which basically said they think that's going too far. 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:18.840 They don't want to track every move of their employees. 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:21.320 They think that would be intrusive. So there is some 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:25.080 debates going on about that. And thermal cameras is another issue. 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:27.919 Right companies are not installing thermal cameras and the lobbies 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:31.280 of office buildings that basically take your temperature from AFAR 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:33.520 and if you walk in you have a fever, this 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:36.960 camera might see this, and then the door might stop you. Again. 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:39.760 It could help keep the workplace safe from any sort 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:43.200 of infections, but it's also it could arguably kind of invasive, 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:47.160 and there's other options. There's one company called Interpublic. They're 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:51.080 toying with the idea of maybe separating their workers into 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:54.200 three different levels. With all of these things, they're good ideas, 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:56.600 but you're right, there's a lot of problems that could 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:59.280 arise out of it, and discrimination things like that that 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:01.800 could arise of that. But into public they want to 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:04.280 do like a level one. This is somebody that's tested 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:07.760 positive for anybodies, so they're very low risk. Level two 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:10.920 would be somebody that is maybe doesn't have the anybodies, 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:13.360 but they're moderate to low risk, they're healthy people. And 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:16.720 then people over sixty five and have underlying health conditions, 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:18.960 they would be a level three. You know, at that point, 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:22.440 could you be discriminating against somebody because of their age 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:25.000 or because of these health conditions, and even having to 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:27.720 disclose those health conditions could be a problem. So this 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:30.120 is something that in the public is considering doing that 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:32.520 having decinatively decided if they want to do this yet, 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:35.480 but they're very clearly thinking about this. And again the 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:38.359 rationality is you you only want to have those people 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:40.440 come back to the office that are really safe and 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:42.919 that an't is vulnerable to the getting sick, because you 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:45.120 want to make sure that people are healthy. That's the idea, 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:48.760 and that's obviously commendable. But the risk here is if 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:52.120 you basically tell people who have pre existing conditions, who 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:53.920 are smarter, is that they can't come to the offset 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:56.640 because they're at risk. The risk here is do you 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:59.359 discriminate against them? Right if you can't come to the office. 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:02.400 The that many contact part in meetings is that may 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:04.440 be bad to your career because you don't get your 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:06.960 face in front of other people. There is the danger 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:09.200 that that over the years to come, some people might 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:12.120 field that they're being discriminated against. And that's the big 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:14.159 debate that some of these companies will have to have 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:17.120 is how do you weigh the benefits for more safety 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:21.200 against the downside of potentially discriminating over someone's health, and 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:23.200 how do the employers navigate that. You know, the White 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:26.440 House has in their guidelines calls for employers to make 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:31.040 accommodations for vulnerable workers things like that, but existing employment 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:33.159 laws are still in place with regards to discrimination and 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:35.240 all that, so that's gonna be a tough thing for 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:38.000 them to navigate. And sorry to say, but they'll probably 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:40.440 be some lawsuits and things like that as soon as 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.760 people really start getting back into the workforce. The new 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:46.840 area for companies to navigate, and one expert described this 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:49.000 is sort of the wild West, right, because we've never 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:52.200 lived to a time like this in a hundred years 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:54.840 where there is this pentanic go back to the office. 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:58.279 So companies often they're experimenting with a bunch of different things. 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:01.120 They're trying to figure out what works and also companies 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:04.960 are waiting for clear guidelines from lawmakers from governments before 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:07.080 they decent, if you decide what they want to do. 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:09.600 But I think everyone said is confused right now. A 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:11.640 lot of companies to try and figure out what to do, 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:14.400 and we'll know a lot more than in a few 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:16.760 months to come. Yeah, one of the biggest concerns about 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:18.640 all of this is, let's say you put some of 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:21.360 these things in place because of the pandemic, and once 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:24.360 things kind of slowed down with that, those things are 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:26.200 already in place, you're just gonna kind of have to 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:27.960 live with them. And there's a lot of parallels to 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:31.440 you know, what happened in September eleven, after buildings install 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:34.800 these enhanced security measures X rays, a bunch of different 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:37.400 things like that. There's just kind of these parallels that 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:40.920 while it might seem intrusive and extreme right now, after 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:42.480 a while you'll get used to it and it will 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:45.719 be that new normal. Right And all these companies will 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:48.640 spend a good amount of money investing in all this technology, 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:52.000 installing all this technology, so they'll have an economic incentive 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:54.480 to keep it using it. Right, to spend all this money, 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:56.600 you don't want to just use it for six months 0:06:56.640 --> 0:06:59.320 and then when the pendomeic to go over you in 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:01.880 the other stamp. So I think the complaint is just 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:04.520 that this you cannot confront. It means that more companies 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:08.120 will just keep on permanently doing more surveillance on their 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:11.320 own workers. And the mind of revenue analogy is very interesting, 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:13.480 right because in New York City, it was a lot 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:16.040 easier to go to an office in New York. You 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:18.040 wouldn't have to go through your tone style, you wouldn't 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:20.280 have to show your idea to anyone at the front desk. 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:23.560 And then I haven't happened. End up changed completely and 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:28.480 you started upslaying people's suitcases and garages, cars would gain 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:30.840 screen for bombs. So security just got a lot more 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:33.400 intense and it never really went away. I mean something 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:36.880 did go away, but but in general security just permanently 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:38.800 stayed a lot harder, and people got used to it. 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:41.000 And they think, for better or worse, a lot of 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:43.239 people will will get used to some of these changes 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:47.120 that are happening. Law Conrad puts here reporter at the 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:49.400 Wall Street Journal, thank you very much for joining us, 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:54.760 thanking him oscar room mirrors and this has been your 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:58.840 daily coronavirus update, don't forget the effort today's big news stories. 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:00.840 You can check me out on The Daily Dive podcasts 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:03.720 every Monday through Friday, so follow us on iHeart Radio 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:05.560 or wherever you get your podcasts.