1
00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:16,680
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease, a cold blooded mass killer

2
00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:22,440
Speaker 1: walks free, walking amongst us, And no, the mass killer

3
00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,079
Speaker 1: did not scale the jailhouse walls to escape. There was

4
00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:31,880
Speaker 1: no elaborate plan to run free. As a matter of fact,

5
00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,840
Speaker 1: she walked out on her own volition and has now

6
00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:39,640
Speaker 1: turned into somewhat.

7
00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:41,519
Speaker 2: Of a media darling.

8
00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:50,520
Speaker 1: A mass killer has walked free, and the governor practically

9
00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:56,840
Speaker 1: rolled out a red carpet. I'm talking about a Charles

10
00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:03,080
Speaker 1: Manson cult killer. I'mancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank

11
00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:05,440
Speaker 1: you for being with us here at Foxination and Serious

12
00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:06,720
Speaker 1: sexem one eleven.

13
00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:08,560
Speaker 2: I want you to take.

14
00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:14,280
Speaker 1: A listen to the Charles Manson cult killer. Leslie van

15
00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:15,600
Speaker 1: Houten listened, and.

16
00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,840
Speaker 3: So then I'm supposed to mess her up. And I

17
00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,959
Speaker 3: took the knife and I started stabbing, and I turned

18
00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:23,600
Speaker 3: into an animal almost, you know.

19
00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,000
Speaker 4: I just completely let out on that woman's.

20
00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:30,080
Speaker 3: Bad and it felt so weird that I blew my

21
00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,280
Speaker 3: mind behind that you can't understand what I mean, but

22
00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:33,039
Speaker 3: blow my mind.

23
00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,800
Speaker 4: I mean I lost control. I went completely messed that moment.

24
00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:41,080
Speaker 3: It was hard to get through. Like when I thought stabbing,

25
00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,440
Speaker 3: I didn't. I didn't really have any idea in my.

26
00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:48,120
Speaker 1: Mind, no idea in my mind. I was supposed to

27
00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,920
Speaker 1: quote mess her up. I took the knife and I

28
00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:55,080
Speaker 1: started stabbing. I turned into an animal and more.

29
00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:57,400
Speaker 2: Listen, it's a real feelings.

30
00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,120
Speaker 4: It's not even like cutting a piece of meat. It's

31
00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:00,840
Speaker 4: much tougher.

32
00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,440
Speaker 3: And I had to use both hands and all my pressure,

33
00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,560
Speaker 3: all my strength behind it to get it in. And

34
00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:09,960
Speaker 3: so once they started, the feeling was so weird that

35
00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,160
Speaker 3: I just kept doing it. And then I went into

36
00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,120
Speaker 3: the other room and I noticed that there's been things

37
00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,880
Speaker 3: written on the wall. There was pig and rise and

38
00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,639
Speaker 3: helter skelter, but I know that they were written in blood.

39
00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,680
Speaker 2: It's not like coming a piece of meat. It's much tougher.

40
00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:29,640
Speaker 1: I had to use both hands and all my pressure

41
00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,960
Speaker 1: and all my strength behind it to get it in.

42
00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:36,760
Speaker 2: I just kept doing it.

43
00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:43,120
Speaker 1: You are hearing the chilling words of a mass killer

44
00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:49,799
Speaker 1: Leslie van Houghten. To the shock of many, now walking free,

45
00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:51,919
Speaker 1: she goes.

46
00:02:51,720 --> 00:03:00,840
Speaker 4: On listen and put on and meat for him to

47
00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,720
Speaker 4: be the eatable off.

48
00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:07,800
Speaker 3: Dying.

49
00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,760
Speaker 4: The woman down because.

50
00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:33,200
Speaker 5: He had done it before. It was yeah, the lamp

51
00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:34,640
Speaker 5: cord has been.

52
00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:37,600
Speaker 4: She jumped.

53
00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,960
Speaker 1: All of a sudden she jumped up after having her

54
00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:46,200
Speaker 1: hands tied with a lamp cord. Rosemary law Beyonca's head

55
00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,400
Speaker 1: covered in a pillow case as she sustained.

56
00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:50,880
Speaker 2: Over forty stab wounds.

57
00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:58,320
Speaker 1: And this killer is free to the shock of the victims' families. Again,

58
00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,480
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us, Joining me right now

59
00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,040
Speaker 1: an all star panel to make sense of what we

60
00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:10,800
Speaker 1: know right now. But first to Anthony d Maria, nephew

61
00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:16,360
Speaker 1: of one of the Manson murder victims, director of Jay

62
00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,640
Speaker 1: Sabreing cutting to the truth, Anthony, thank you for being

63
00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,560
Speaker 1: with us. What has been the reaction of the victims'

64
00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,120
Speaker 1: families to Leslie vn Houghton walking free.

65
00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:31,080
Speaker 6: Well, I've spoken with numerous of the families and we're

66
00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:32,880
Speaker 6: in a state of shock, even though we saw this

67
00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,839
Speaker 6: week it was announced that this is where the release

68
00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:40,839
Speaker 6: was headed. It's literally gut wrenching and mind numbing, nauseating.

69
00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:46,000
Speaker 6: But all of us I've spoken to share that we

70
00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:50,560
Speaker 6: feel a tremendous sense of betrayal, let down by the

71
00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,560
Speaker 6: justice system, and an extreme We're extremely disappointed that the

72
00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,640
Speaker 6: governor decided not to file an appeal that did allowed

73
00:04:58,760 --> 00:04:59,919
Speaker 6: the release of Leslie.

74
00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,320
Speaker 1: Also joining me in addition to the nephew of one

75
00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:10,560
Speaker 1: of the Manson murder victims, Ava Roosevelt. She had actually

76
00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,640
Speaker 1: been invited to share and Tate and Roman plants He's home,

77
00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:19,200
Speaker 1: and was an inch away from being murdered that night.

78
00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:23,400
Speaker 1: She's the author of The Racing Heart, available on Amazon.

79
00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,760
Speaker 1: You can find that at the Racingheart dot com. Ama,

80
00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:32,880
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. I really paused and

81
00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:37,799
Speaker 1: thought about whether I should play for you and the listeners.

82
00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:43,480
Speaker 1: The words in her own words, Leslie van Houghton describing

83
00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:48,839
Speaker 1: how difficult it was to slice into the victims. But

84
00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:53,200
Speaker 1: as I've told many many juries, it's very hard to

85
00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:57,279
Speaker 1: listen to. But in order to make a true decision

86
00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,960
Speaker 1: or each a true verdict, you have to know the truth,

87
00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,599
Speaker 1: and that is the truth. What is your response to

88
00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:07,679
Speaker 1: Leslie Van Hotten walking free.

89
00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:13,599
Speaker 7: It's shocking. It's an egregious egregious uh legal for power

90
00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,240
Speaker 7: really And I think that I just wanted to say

91
00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,640
Speaker 7: to the gentleman speaking before me that Jay Sebring was

92
00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:27,600
Speaker 7: a very good I'm very sorry for your lord. There

93
00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:32,000
Speaker 7: are no words by how I feel, really, and if

94
00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:37,279
Speaker 7: I break down, please forgive me, because I'm the tragedy,

95
00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:42,359
Speaker 7: not only of the Lablanca but also Jay C bring Gibe,

96
00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:48,480
Speaker 7: Folder Voidect and of course Sharon. The biggest picture for

97
00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:52,839
Speaker 7: me here is uh, she's walking. She's going to be

98
00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:57,159
Speaker 7: supported by the society and received a red carpet. Like

99
00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:03,040
Speaker 7: you said, I wish I had it in my heart

100
00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:07,960
Speaker 7: to praise. I can't because no amount of LSD at

101
00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:12,560
Speaker 7: any age would make me commit a crime like as

102
00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,200
Speaker 7: the word, she's accused of and convicted.

103
00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,280
Speaker 1: All you know what, Ava, You're so right, not only

104
00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,120
Speaker 1: accused of but convicted. And at the time that Van

105
00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:26,600
Speaker 1: Houghten was convicted of multiple murders, she was sentenced to

106
00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:31,840
Speaker 1: the death penalty. Then the state of California reversed the

107
00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,200
Speaker 1: death penalty and her sentence was reduced to not life

108
00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:39,280
Speaker 1: without parole but life joining me again, as I mentioned,

109
00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,960
Speaker 1: an all star panel. But now to Lisa Statmann, author

110
00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:46,080
Speaker 1: of Restless Souls, the Sharon Tate Family's account of Stardom

111
00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:51,160
Speaker 1: Manson murders and a Crusade for Justice. Lisa, how did

112
00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:56,640
Speaker 1: this happen? Why did the Governor Gavin Newsom just lay

113
00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:02,040
Speaker 1: down and let Leslie Vnhatten roll all over him? He said, well,

114
00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,720
Speaker 1: you know what, I don't think the California Supreme Court

115
00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,360
Speaker 1: is going to keep her behind bar.

116
00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:09,880
Speaker 2: So I just give up? Why why give up on

117
00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:10,600
Speaker 2: what's right?

118
00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:11,000
Speaker 1: You know?

119
00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:12,760
Speaker 2: I think it's a couple of things, Nancy.

120
00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,520
Speaker 8: If we look back, history is literally repeating itself to

121
00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,960
Speaker 8: when Dorstate became involved in these Pearl hearings, all the

122
00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,600
Speaker 8: way back in nineteen seventy eight, when Vane had nine

123
00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,160
Speaker 8: hundred signatures for her release, and it was right at

124
00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,640
Speaker 8: that moment that Dorstate, even though Leslie was not convicted

125
00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,840
Speaker 8: of Sharon's murder, she knew that the floodgates were going

126
00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:35,960
Speaker 8: to open for the rest of them. And what was

127
00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:41,760
Speaker 8: happening in that moment is that there were no DA representatives,

128
00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,560
Speaker 8: there was a Border Prison Terms panel that had to

129
00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:50,680
Speaker 8: do zero research on the commitment offense. Therefore they never

130
00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,960
Speaker 8: went over it. And as it is now, we had

131
00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:58,600
Speaker 8: overcrowding in prisons. And so basically what is happening is

132
00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:02,800
Speaker 8: exactly what happened in nineteen seventy eight, and sadly we

133
00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:07,480
Speaker 8: don't have the political backing that Doristate grew and nurtured

134
00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:11,719
Speaker 8: until it was a victim's Right state, and that is slowly,

135
00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:16,520
Speaker 8: slowly been flipping away. There's also the misconception of the

136
00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,600
Speaker 8: fact that she you know, at her last parole hearing,

137
00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:25,720
Speaker 8: they gave her the stipulation basically, you're qualified for parole

138
00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,199
Speaker 8: because you're part of your elderly and you've served more

139
00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,640
Speaker 8: than twenty five years in prison. That was the only

140
00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,680
Speaker 8: criteria that they gave her to get out.

141
00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:36,520
Speaker 9: So while I.

142
00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:41,199
Speaker 8: Am incredibly disappointed in Gavin Newsom for not fighting the fight,

143
00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,480
Speaker 8: what he is basically saying, I think is that it

144
00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:49,040
Speaker 8: is a lost cause in this moment in our state,

145
00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:53,000
Speaker 8: because we are shifting to the criminal's rights as opposed

146
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:53,880
Speaker 8: to the victim's right.

147
00:09:54,040 --> 00:10:01,160
Speaker 1: Guys, you just heard Lisa Statman mention this Leslie van

148
00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,080
Speaker 1: Houghton appearing before the Pardon and Parole boards. But I

149
00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:09,480
Speaker 1: want you to hear exactly what she's saying in order

150
00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,880
Speaker 1: to get out. I mean, has anybody on this panel

151
00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,200
Speaker 1: heard Let me think of a good example. Anybody's seen

152
00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,760
Speaker 1: Ocean's eleven. Do you remember when George Clooney said everything

153
00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,960
Speaker 1: he was supposed to say to the Pardoner and Parole

154
00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,440
Speaker 1: Board about how he admits he did it, He's sorry

155
00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,120
Speaker 1: he did it, He'll never do it again, He's a

156
00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,600
Speaker 1: changed man. He was upset because his wife had left him,

157
00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,600
Speaker 1: which is Julia Roberts, who wouldn't be upset, and then

158
00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,840
Speaker 1: he gets out and does an incredible heist. Right, he

159
00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,640
Speaker 1: knew what he had to say. I'm trying to give

160
00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:47,040
Speaker 1: you an example. This happens over and over every day.

161
00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,000
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact. Take a listen to our

162
00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,760
Speaker 1: cut six. This is Sharon Tate's sister Deborhate speaking to

163
00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:56,920
Speaker 1: this exact issue on News Nation.

164
00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,960
Speaker 2: She is speaking rehearsed words.

165
00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:05,480
Speaker 10: It's part of the rehabilitation program. Is they actually teach

166
00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,880
Speaker 10: inmates what to say and how to handle themselves. She

167
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,240
Speaker 10: has never said she was sorry in a letter or

168
00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:16,040
Speaker 10: a personal form to the Lobyanca family.

169
00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,599
Speaker 2: She will cry phony.

170
00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:24,440
Speaker 10: Tears in the courtroom saying she's sorry to the parole board,

171
00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:26,679
Speaker 10: but not to her victims' families.

172
00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:47,040
Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace joining me now, former federal prosecutor,

173
00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,600
Speaker 1: author of Hunting Charles Manson, LESE.

174
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,760
Speaker 2: Will Lee, thank you so much for being with us, Lise.

175
00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:59,600
Speaker 1: Is that true our inmates coached on what to say

176
00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,000
Speaker 1: when they go up before pardon and parole?

177
00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,720
Speaker 11: Nancy absolutely. And I'll give you another example when Anthony

178
00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,240
Speaker 11: was there. That's the Text Watson parole hearing, the last

179
00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,080
Speaker 11: parole hearing that he had several years ago, and I

180
00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,360
Speaker 11: was there as the only journalist that was allowed in.

181
00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:18,960
Speaker 11: I was with the victims, and they were petrified of

182
00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,600
Speaker 11: the fact that because of California law, that Text Watson

183
00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:24,600
Speaker 11: could get out for the same reasons that Leslie van

184
00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:25,640
Speaker 11: Holton just got out.

185
00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,360
Speaker 8: Can I interject something real quick? This is Lisa Statman. Yes,

186
00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:33,360
Speaker 8: at Leslie van Holton's one of her parole hearings. You know,

187
00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,320
Speaker 8: they have to have a psychiatric evaluation before every hearing.

188
00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:38,880
Speaker 8: And I would like to give you a quote that

189
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,720
Speaker 8: speaks to everything that you just said. This is from

190
00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:46,640
Speaker 8: a doctor McDaniel. He said, Miss van Holton possesses a

191
00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,720
Speaker 8: degree of personal term that is very convincing. The obvious

192
00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:55,760
Speaker 8: question is whether this represents poo emotional change and restructuring

193
00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,360
Speaker 8: of her personality or someone who is so smooth in

194
00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:03,520
Speaker 8: their manipult relations that they're barely perceptible. And I'm going

195
00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,360
Speaker 8: to say that that puts a nut on Lessie van Houghton.

196
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:12,560
Speaker 8: And to go back to what Ava said, and is

197
00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,400
Speaker 8: the fact that she has never and this is a

198
00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,400
Speaker 8: requirement of the border prison terms for a release. She

199
00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:22,679
Speaker 8: has never taken full responsibility for her actions. She has

200
00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,880
Speaker 8: said I participated, She has said I gingerly stabbed Rosemary

201
00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,120
Speaker 8: LaBianca in the back after she was dead.

202
00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,960
Speaker 9: And you know in those tapes she said she doesn't

203
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:33,600
Speaker 9: know she's dead.

204
00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:38,520
Speaker 1: Guys, I want you to hear the words of Leslie Vanhattan. Now,

205
00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:43,200
Speaker 1: this is after Sharon Tate's sister claims, and I agree

206
00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:48,600
Speaker 1: with her that Leslie Vanhattan is simply reciting words that

207
00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,679
Speaker 1: she's been coached to say in order to get what

208
00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:56,000
Speaker 1: she wants, and that is released. Why is she released

209
00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:00,839
Speaker 1: when the victims are still in their coffins, they're still dead,

210
00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,920
Speaker 1: but she is out enjoying life. As a matter of fact,

211
00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,839
Speaker 1: has turned into a media sensation. She's like a little

212
00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:14,440
Speaker 1: pet or a mascot while they're still dead and their

213
00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:19,080
Speaker 1: families have somehow moved forward as best they can, limping

214
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:24,040
Speaker 1: and hurting. And now this, but this I'm playing for you,

215
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,920
Speaker 1: is how Leslie van Houghton really feels in her own words.

216
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:30,680
Speaker 2: Take a listen to our cut eleven.

217
00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:33,440
Speaker 12: Could you tell us how you feel now about what

218
00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,280
Speaker 12: happened to the blob beyond because and all the other

219
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:37,440
Speaker 12: people that were killed.

220
00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,840
Speaker 3: Well, I can't really feel sorry because I did it,

221
00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,200
Speaker 3: and I did it.

222
00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:44,720
Speaker 4: Would there have the intention of it being right?

223
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,000
Speaker 3: I heard that mister t sort of blew his mind.

224
00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:49,400
Speaker 3: You've got a yippy.

225
00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,320
Speaker 4: Hairdoo looking for the people that did it to his daughter.

226
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:53,760
Speaker 4: That's so sorry for those people.

227
00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,120
Speaker 3: I really want to be honest. If you know, wow,

228
00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:02,680
Speaker 3: well all it is the body.

229
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:04,400
Speaker 2: What you were doing was right?

230
00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:06,200
Speaker 12: And if you did it, why was it right?

231
00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:09,680
Speaker 4: I thought it was perfectly right.

232
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:14,520
Speaker 2: No remorse what so ever. None.

233
00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,720
Speaker 1: In fact, Van Houghton says, I thought it was perfectly right.

234
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,920
Speaker 1: Back to Les will joining Us, author of Hunting Charles

235
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,680
Speaker 1: Masnet took her two years to research and write the

236
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,480
Speaker 1: book now on Amazon.

237
00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:31,640
Speaker 2: Is it true?

238
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:36,560
Speaker 1: Van Houghton to this day has never expressed remorse.

239
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:37,920
Speaker 2: She admits she did it.

240
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,320
Speaker 1: She goes into gruesome details about how it was so

241
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:47,360
Speaker 1: hard to cut human flesh, describes every single aspect of it,

242
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,760
Speaker 1: we think, but never shows any remorse.

243
00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,760
Speaker 2: No tears, no upset, nothing, no.

244
00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,280
Speaker 11: And you hear it, they were just bodies. Can you

245
00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:58,800
Speaker 11: imagine saying that they.

246
00:15:58,640 --> 00:15:59,760
Speaker 6: Were just bodies?

247
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,840
Speaker 11: There's no remorse it's coaching. Just as Text Watson was

248
00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:05,560
Speaker 11: coached and had to look at a list of the

249
00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:07,960
Speaker 11: victims as he rattled them up. He had to actually

250
00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,720
Speaker 11: look at them because he couldn't remember them. So, you know,

251
00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,600
Speaker 11: these people have both been coached, and the legal standard.

252
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,840
Speaker 11: This is what's so terrifying to me. The legal standard

253
00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:20,680
Speaker 11: is whether she can be whether she's the danger to

254
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,640
Speaker 11: the community. That's one of the prongs, right, Yes, I

255
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,080
Speaker 11: think she still is. This person is a cult follower,

256
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,680
Speaker 11: and you know, with Tex Watson and his hearing, it

257
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,000
Speaker 11: was I've found Christ and I'm going to be you know,

258
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,040
Speaker 11: I'm going to follow Christ. Well, he gets into a

259
00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,880
Speaker 11: church and does whatever the preacher says, you know, the

260
00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,800
Speaker 11: pastor says, you get a you know, wacko pastor or

261
00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,920
Speaker 11: preach preacher. Same thing. I mean, she gets out she's

262
00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,800
Speaker 11: a cult member. She's going to find another type of cult,

263
00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,720
Speaker 11: whatever that is in our day to day life, and

264
00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,320
Speaker 11: join that and do whatever that cult leader says. I mean,

265
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:58,000
Speaker 11: it's just incredible to me that the court system didn't

266
00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,520
Speaker 11: see that that she is still a danger that can.

267
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,720
Speaker 1: Another danger in the release of Leslie Manhaughtan is that

268
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,760
Speaker 1: it releases the floodgates they're open. Now are all the

269
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:12,720
Speaker 1: Manson killers going to be released? And because of this release?

270
00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,000
Speaker 1: Can other killers?

271
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:15,440
Speaker 7: Now?

272
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,760
Speaker 2: Say? Will let Leslie vn Houghten out? Why can't I

273
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:19,440
Speaker 2: get out?

274
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:26,240
Speaker 1: Because under our jurisprudence, under our constitution, there is quote

275
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,960
Speaker 1: equal protection under the law. In other words, one person

276
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,800
Speaker 1: is not to be treated differently than another person in

277
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,000
Speaker 1: our court system. So if Ben Houghton Gill walk free,

278
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,440
Speaker 1: why not everybody else? That is a serious threat. Now

279
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,800
Speaker 1: back to Ben Houghton herself, take a listen to our

280
00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:55,480
Speaker 1: cut eighteen van Houghton in her own words, and.

281
00:17:55,480 --> 00:18:02,440
Speaker 4: I put, what's happening to me? We can lay all right?

282
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:04,120
Speaker 4: I mean Katie tried.

283
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:10,200
Speaker 13: To daddy and the knife was suspended, so we can't.

284
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,040
Speaker 4: And I can't remember which one of us did it.

285
00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,600
Speaker 13: It would have been me, and we said, you know,

286
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,520
Speaker 13: text coming it was a knife, don't dance the only.

287
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:19,960
Speaker 7: She was dead.

288
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:25,280
Speaker 4: We didn't. She didn't make any eating with me. If

289
00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:26,280
Speaker 4: Katie turned.

290
00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:31,040
Speaker 14: To get the knife into the throat and it wouldn't go.

291
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:36,320
Speaker 14: And I remember seeing her being fat in front of

292
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,200
Speaker 14: her closet, old bloody on her stomach.

293
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:41,760
Speaker 2: Some of those words were hard to hear.

294
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:46,880
Speaker 1: She says, I can't remember which one of us did

295
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,800
Speaker 1: at stab Rosemary. It could have been me, and we said, Text,

296
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,520
Speaker 1: come here, it comes in and the knife is all bent.

297
00:18:55,840 --> 00:19:00,879
Speaker 1: Mister l Bianca was dead and Text wanted to see.

298
00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:05,960
Speaker 1: One of the other victim was making gurgling noises, and

299
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:12,000
Speaker 1: another Manson cult member told Van Howton to stick the

300
00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:17,520
Speaker 1: knife in Rosemary's throat and she said it wouldn't go.

301
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,280
Speaker 1: And I remember seeing her lying flat in front of

302
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:25,360
Speaker 1: the closet, all bloody on her stomach. This is who

303
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:30,440
Speaker 1: has just walked free. Speaking from my own personal experience,

304
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,879
Speaker 1: it's a hurt you never get over to Anthony de

305
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:42,240
Speaker 1: Maria when you see when you learn the one that murdered,

306
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:49,679
Speaker 1: the one you love the most walk free, it's so

307
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:58,800
Speaker 1: debilitating because it feels like there is no justice.

308
00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:00,440
Speaker 2: I want to hear your thoughts, Anthony.

309
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,600
Speaker 6: Can I respond to that, But I'd like to circle

310
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,440
Speaker 6: back to some very important points that you've made with

311
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,399
Speaker 6: regard in all all the guests here, with regard to

312
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,800
Speaker 6: Leslie VN. Houghton's words and what you played is the

313
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,760
Speaker 6: actual Leslie Van Holten. Now, I've been to dozens of

314
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:21,680
Speaker 6: parole hearings, six of Leslie's as a Lobianca family representative,

315
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,560
Speaker 6: and I think it's important to a stat I would

316
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,320
Speaker 6: like to share actual quotes of hers that shows the

317
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,520
Speaker 6: Leslie van Houden in the parole room. And this quote,

318
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,320
Speaker 6: it's I'm going to quote now in Leslie's words quote

319
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:39,240
Speaker 6: the autopsy report verifies that there were superficial stab wounds

320
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,320
Speaker 6: in the lower back of Miss LaBianca. I have consistently

321
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:48,679
Speaker 6: testified and taken responsibility for those those wounds were post

322
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,440
Speaker 6: mortem end quote. I want to get to this most

323
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,080
Speaker 6: recent quote where she states, quote, I know it's my

324
00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:03,280
Speaker 6: responsibility that I allowed this happen to me. I take

325
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 6: responsibility that I allowed myself to follow him end quote.

326
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:14,440
Speaker 6: These are not the words of a rehabilitated killer. These

327
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:20,560
Speaker 6: are the tactical ruminations of a very cunning, narcissistic social path.

328
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:27,359
Speaker 6: And as you clearly revealed, she states in these parole

329
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,880
Speaker 6: hearings that she yelled out to Watson we can't kill her,

330
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:33,840
Speaker 6: as if she didn't have the will to kill. But

331
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,640
Speaker 6: what she actually said was in facts, we can't kill her.

332
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 6: The knife is all bent. So she's actually not the

333
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 6: passive participant that she portrays herself to be. At that point,

334
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:52,399
Speaker 6: she actually directed Charles Watson to kill her hostage to

335
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:57,280
Speaker 6: finish the kill. That is the real Leslie van Houghton.

336
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,359
Speaker 6: And it is disgusting to our families that the parole

337
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,960
Speaker 6: boards don't do their research enough to seek through this charade.

338
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,640
Speaker 6: And it's a very despicable charade. To your other point,

339
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 6: when you ask about there is no justice, how does

340
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 6: it feel? There's no way for me to express that.

341
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:29,920
Speaker 6: It's it's it's impossible. But her crimes obviously profoundly impacted

342
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 6: our families, but they also massively impacted the country at large.

343
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 6: And I and badly I feel that with regard to

344
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 6: CDCR and some of the institutions. Uh, how are how

345
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 6: our families feel are an afterthought? Victims are a collateral damage?

346
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 6: But now the impact that this release will have setting

347
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 6: a very dangerous, pernicious precedent.

348
00:22:59,560 --> 00:22:59,879
Speaker 12: Mhm.

349
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 6: I think it's a very important question to ask, how

350
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 6: does America feel about the release of Leslie ben Houghton.

351
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:25,359
Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we were talking about

352
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,920
Speaker 1: the release of a mass killer, which is over more

353
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 1: than one body. I always question why Leslie vn Houghten

354
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,719
Speaker 1: was not charged with the Sharon Tate murders as well.

355
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:42,160
Speaker 1: She was living with Manson and the Manson family at

356
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 1: the time of the Tate murders. Tate heavily pregnant, begging

357
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 1: for her life or her unborn child's life when she

358
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:52,880
Speaker 1: was brutally murdered.

359
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,399
Speaker 2: Van Auten was there when that was planned.

360
00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,199
Speaker 1: In fact, she was angry, according to co defendants, that

361
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 1: she was not allowed to ride along and back to

362
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 1: lease Will. It's akin to a bank robbery where you

363
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 1: and I and Jackie planned the bank robbery, planned the

364
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: whole heist, but you and I are the ones that

365
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 1: go in the bank and I'm the one that shoots everybody.

366
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 1: Jackie is just as culpable as we are. And I've

367
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 1: never understood why Van Houghton was not charged with the

368
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 1: Tape murders as well.

369
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 11: I think she could have been, absolutely because as you say,

370
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 11: it's felony murder, right, even if you're not actually there,

371
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 11: you were part of the planning. Charles Manson wasn't actually there,

372
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 11: so that tells you something. But I think the legal

373
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 11: reason is that her lawyers argued she didn't take a

374
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 11: substantial step, which of course, is the standard for conspiracy.

375
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 1: In the last hours, Leslie van Houghton has walked free

376
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 1: from behind prison walls after murdering the Labbiancas and helping

377
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 1: to plan the sh Garant Tate murders. I want to

378
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 1: go to doctor Jan Gorniac, renowned medical examiner joining us

379
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,919
Speaker 1: out of Clark County. That's Vegas, doctor Gorniac. It's a

380
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 1: real honor to have you on with us. Thank you

381
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 1: for being with us. We keep hearing von Hotten refer

382
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:20,479
Speaker 1: to the fact that Rosemary was already dead when she

383
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 1: Manhattan stabbed Rosemary. I don't believe that that's true. In

384
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: a post mortem autopsy, how can you tell whether wounds

385
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: were sustained post mortem after death.

386
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 15: So when I do an odutopsy, one of our jobs

387
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 15: is too obviously determine injuries whether they're anti mortem before

388
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 15: death or a post mortem after death. So in order

389
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 15: to determine that, we have to look at characteristics of

390
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 15: the wounds. So when a wound is sustained post mortem

391
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 15: after death, there is no swelling of the tissue, there

392
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 15: is no reading of the tissue we call erythema. So

393
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 15: and sometimes it looks dry and there might be minimal

394
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 15: hemorrhage within the within the tissue, because in order for

395
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,919
Speaker 15: if it, if you're alive, when an injury is sustained,

396
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 15: your body's going to react to it. That's like bumping

397
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 15: your leg against the wall or door. Your body's going

398
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 15: to react to it and you're going to see a bruise,

399
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 15: or if you fall and cut yourself, it's going to

400
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 15: be swollen and it's going to be red. But when

401
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 15: a wound is sustained post mortem, that reaction doesn't happen.

402
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 15: So it's essentially quote unquote, a clean wound, no reddening,

403
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 15: no blood swelling, no obvious bleeding.

404
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: Correct does a gorniac? Could you describe what happened to

405
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: Rosemary and Lino Lambianca?

406
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 15: So I was reading going back about the multiple stab wounds.

407
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 15: It's just and defensive defense wounds. So when you get

408
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 15: a defense wound, that means that you're grabbing for the

409
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 15: knife and then you get defense wounds on your hand.

410
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 15: Those are, for me, believe it or not, are the

411
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 15: worst injuries that I see. You know, even as a pathologist,

412
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 15: I get the willies sometimes and that's one of the

413
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 15: things that gives me the willies when I see the

414
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:26,640
Speaker 15: defensive wounds, especially on the hands, and it's just you're

415
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 15: going to bleed out a lot of hemorrhage. But it's

416
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 15: not unfortunately, you know, it's sad to think about. It's

417
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:39,360
Speaker 15: not a quick depth. So you're getting stabbed multiple times,

418
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 15: you're going to feel that you're going to be moving

419
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 15: and then what happens is you slowly bleed out you hemorrhage.

420
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 15: So it's not a quick depth, unfortunately, and you go

421
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 15: into shock and then you die. So it's it's the

422
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 15: worst cases that I do are multiple stab wom stab

423
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 15: wounds cases. And it was interesting to hear the description

424
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 15: of stabbing somebody. I've never heard somebody who stabbed somebody

425
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 15: else describe it like that. And ironically, I'm getting ready

426
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 15: to teach a course on Sunday on sharp force injuries,

427
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 15: and everybody asked, well, how much force does it take

428
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 15: to you know, stab somebody? And actually the skin is

429
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 15: the toughest part to get through. And so to hear

430
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 15: her compared to it's not like cutting meat. That's just

431
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:33,719
Speaker 15: I've never heard that.

432
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 16: It's disgusting, it is, but it but she you know,

433
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 16: in that description, because like I, all I say is

434
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 16: the skin is the toughest part of the body to

435
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 16: get through. And then once you get past the skin,

436
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 16: the you know, depending on the sharpness of the knife,

437
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 16: the internal organs are easily punctured. But to hear it

438
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 16: that way, we're I had to use both hands and things.

439
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 16: I mean, that gave me a whole new appreciation when

440
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 16: I see victims with multiple stablings.

441
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: What those victims endured, Doctor Gorniac is unthinkable. Rosemary la Bianca, wife, mother,

442
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: She worked alongside her husband. They were in charge of

443
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: grocery store change owned them had worked their whole life.

444
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: Rosemary ends up dead, stabbed over forty times with a

445
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: pillow case over her head, strangled with a lamp cord,

446
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: her seeing her husband murdered. Guys, take a listen to

447
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: hour cut nine. If you think that Leslie van Hatten

448
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: didn't know what she was doing, listen to this. And

449
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: by the way, mass murder certainly did not diminish her appetite.

450
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 4: Listen, I said, what about the finger prints?

451
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 3: I listen on the lampsheet and Katie having a challenged

452
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 3: a life month that is, so I went and they

453
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 3: just went the whole bathroom all over and everything I

454
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 3: had touched, and we did the kitchen and just sort

455
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 3: of all over, which is a whole fingerprint thing because

456
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 3: we hadn't worn any gloves. And then Katy takes when

457
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 3: I came out of Benjamin. Then we're taking a shower,

458
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 3: and then after that we were hungry, and so we

459
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 3: went and we took some cheese and milk out of

460
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 3: the refreierated and we took it with us.

461
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: They went and raided the fridge like they're having a sleepover.

462
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 2: They went back and he raised all.

463
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: Of their fingerprints that they could think of, one even

464
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: taking a shower, getting rid of evidence in the victim's home,

465
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: and then raiding their fridge for a midnight feast. It's

466
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: almost more than I can take in Joining me right

467
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: now is a forensic expert host of Shattered Souls, the

468
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: car Barn Murders, Sure University of Florida, Karen Smith. Karen,

469
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: you and I have discussed in many cases where the perp,

470
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: the killer is so unfazed by murder, they go drive

471
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: through McDonald's or Burger King. Here, they actually go raid

472
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: the dead victims fridge while the victims are lying there dead, they.

473
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 2: Go eat the food, take the food out.

474
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 7: Of the fridge right.

475
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 9: That speaks to awareness, It speaks to understanding of what

476
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 9: they've done. Not only did they read the refrigerator, take

477
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 9: cheese and milk, Leslie Van Houghton admitted that she went

478
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 9: into Rosemary Labianca's closet and took her clothes. They also

479
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 9: played with the dog. They wiped down the fingerprints from

480
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 9: the crime scene. This is not the actions of somebody

481
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 9: who was hypnotized or under the spell of somebody else

482
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 9: and did what they said. She knew exactly what she

483
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 9: was doing. And Nancy, we have heard a lot of

484
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 9: information from a lot of really incredible people today that

485
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 9: have piecemealed this together. But if I could, I just

486
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 9: want to do a quick walkthrough of this crime scene

487
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 9: because of how horrific it really was. You have words

488
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 9: in blood scrawled on the wall, you have two victims

489
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 9: on the floor. A crime scene like this would take

490
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 9: us multiple days today. Lino LaBianca, his hands were bound

491
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 9: behind his back with a leather cord.

492
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 6: He was helpless.

493
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 9: He was stabbed twelve times, then an additional seven times

494
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 9: with a carving fork. That fork was left in his abdomen.

495
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 9: The knife was left in his neck, embedded past the

496
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 9: hilt that was discovered by the Medical Examiner's office. The

497
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 9: investigators didn't see it because a pillowcase was over his

498
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 9: head and an electrical cord was wrapped around his neck.

499
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 9: In his mouth, he also had a sofa cushion over

500
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 9: his face. The word war had been carved into his abdomen,

501
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 9: and Lino LaBianca not only exanguinated blood to death, he

502
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 9: aspirated on a own vomit before he died. Rosemary LaBianca

503
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 9: she was stabbed forty one times to both the front

504
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 9: of her body in the back, so she was defenseless

505
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 9: and according to the police reports, she attempted to crawl away.

506
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 9: She also had a pillowcase over her head, a lamp

507
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,719
Speaker 9: cord wrapped around her neck. One of the stab wounds

508
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 9: nearly severed her spinal cord, and as Rosemary attempted to

509
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 9: get away, Leslie van Houghton admitted that she and Patricia

510
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 9: Crenwinkle called out to text Watson he was busy in

511
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 9: the living room stabbing Lino. Van Houghton told Watson that

512
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 9: she couldn't get the knife to go into her body,

513
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 9: and then she said she had to use her full

514
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 9: body weight all of her pressure to get that knife

515
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 9: to go in, and she turned into an animal during

516
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 9: the murder. Now, later on during interviews, she said that

517
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 9: she very gingerly stabbed Rosemary. Now, I don't know how

518
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 9: you do that, when the five inch knife went into

519
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 9: her body multiple times, all the way to the hilt.

520
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 9: And her contention that Rosemary LaBianca was dead when she

521
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 9: plunged the knife to her body over and over and

522
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 9: over and over again, that is unsubstantiated. And I think

523
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 9: the medical examiner will agree with me because there's no

524
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 9: way to tell which stab wounds than Holton inflicted and

525
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 9: in what order they were done. There's no evidence regarding

526
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 9: the exact moment that Rosemary LaBianca died. So that is

527
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 9: a moot point. And it's just one more excuse by

528
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 9: Leslie Van Houghton to not take responsibility for the vicious

529
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 9: and cool murders of innocent people.

530
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: To Ava Roosevelt, friends of victims over at Sharon Tates

531
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: and rowand Plansky's home had been invited over herself. When

532
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: you look back, Ava Roosevelt and realize how close you

533
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 1: came to being murdered by the Manson family cult members,

534
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: what do you think.

535
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 7: Well, there is for me right now, there is a big,

536
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 7: bigger picture here in all of this, which is, will

537
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 7: the release of this murder open the floodgates to release

538
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 7: of Patricia Kranwin coll and Tex Watsuits because these two,

539
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 7: I believe that I'm correct, two remaining members of the

540
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:24,800
Speaker 7: Watson family who were directly involved in murdering my friends,

541
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 7: my dear friends, Sharon Gibbie zoidek. I mean, we went

542
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 7: a long way, So what is going to happen to

543
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 7: these people? Are they going to wiggle out and start

544
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 7: a life of freedom, basically leaving all of us and

545
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 7: the nation the innocent then without any closure, So I

546
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 7: ask all of you, what do you think will happen

547
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,280
Speaker 7: and an aftermath of what happened to Leslie?

548
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 1: Anthony de Maria John as J. Sebring's nephew, director of J.

549
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 2: Sebring.

550
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:08,919
Speaker 1: Cutting to the truth, Anthony, we have been told that

551
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 1: the Tate family is so upset, so emotionally torn up,

552
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: they can't even speak to the release of Vanhattan. When

553
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 1: you hear the description of what happened to the victims,

554
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 1: how do you respond?

555
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 6: You know, I have the honor and privilege to know

556
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 6: many of the family members, and I've been in contact

557
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 6: with many of them, all of them that I've met

558
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 6: through the parole hearings. And I'd be remiss if I

559
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 6: didn't state that I've talked to many of the Loveyanca

560
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 6: family and they many of them are so devastated that

561
00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 6: it's paralyzing, and others are I think themselves, but I

562
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 6: feel that they're here with us in this conversation, and

563
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 6: certainly the Tate family, the Frakowski family, the Parent family,

564
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 6: Shay Hinman folder I forgive me if I forget any

565
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 6: any if I admit any other but you know, there

566
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 6: is outrage, and there is devastation, but there is also

567
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 6: love and we hold on to that love or.

568
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 12: Or are.

569
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 6: Our family members, and I am grateful for the opportunity

570
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 6: to express these thoughts, as difficult as they are.

571
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 2: Well, you have to.

572
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: You have to keep doing it, Anthony, because you and

573
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,240
Speaker 1: a few others are the only ones left that actually

574
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: are speaking for the crime victims, because clearly pardoner and

575
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: parole is not, the governor is not. Guys, I want

576
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 1: you to hear our cut twelve, the words of Leslie

577
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 1: vent houghten.

578
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 12: You really want to die?

579
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 3: I don't I don't want to, and I don't not

580
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 3: want to, and then would I'd love to get out

581
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 3: of this.

582
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 4: You know, I'd love to go back on the.

583
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:23,840
Speaker 12: Street, Leslie, if you could turn the clock that and

584
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 12: go back that night that you ask Charlie to go

585
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 12: along with him? Who will kill the lamb beyond? Because

586
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 12: although you didn't know who was going to be killed?

587
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 4: Do what you do it again?

588
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 5: Yes?

589
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:36,879
Speaker 4: I really I can't. I can't be sorry to.

590
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 7: What it done.

591
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 4: And like I said, I I had no control.

592
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: How has this happened? Will News now be re elected?

593
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 1: What does this mean for other crime victims' families? We

594
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 1: wait as justice unfalls. Goodbye friend

595
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 7: One,