WEBVTT - Why don't Squid and Octopus Get More Love? 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.600 Guess what, Mango? What's that? Will? All right? So I've 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:05.080 been looking at octopus facts all week, and I hope 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:07.320 you have too, because that's the episode we're recording right now. 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:09.840 But did you know that they love puzzles like they 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:12.760 actually kind of need them. I mean, it's not surprising 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:14.920 that they're smart. They're basically a giant heads with too 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:18.040 many legs. So I was reading about Louis the octopus. 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:21.000 He's a giant Pacific octopus who lives at an aquarium 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:24.760 in Cornwall, England. So he's this beautiful six ft wide 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:28.000 creature and he insists on cuddling with his Mr. Potato 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:30.760 Head toy, which sounds cute. It is, but Louis gets 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:33.080 really aggressive if you try to take it away from him, 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:35.319 so don't try to do that. I mean, Luis needs 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:39.000 to learn to share. So is he just rearranging the toy? Well, 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:41.519 he does fiddle with the parts and and supposedly the 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:45.040 bright colors are also stimulating. But the most appealing thing 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:47.440 for him is that the scientists fill the tiny toy 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:50.199 with crab meat or smelt. They just stuff it through 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:52.640 the arm and the headholes and it's a bit of 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:54.960 a puzzle. I mean, it's fun for Louis and other 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:57.720 octopus to figure out how to get those treats. But 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:01.080 reading about Louis made me wonder how smart are squid 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:04.640 and octopus? What are the major differences between them? And 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:07.720 how exactly do you stuff a smelt into a potato head? 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:29.360 And that's exactly what today's show is all about. It's 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:31.360 alp in to part time Genius. I'm Will Pearson and 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:33.240 as always I'm joined by my good friend Manuesh I 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:36.440 ticket off and sitting behind the soundproof glass wearing his 0:01:36.720 --> 0:01:39.399 Octopus Give the Best Hugs t shirt is our friend 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:42.440 and producer Tristan McNeil. He'd been staring at that thing 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:46.559 on eBay for weeks. Tobago, Today's show is a little 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:48.840 all over the place. I know, we wanted to chat 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:52.560 about squid and octopus. Yeah, that's right, but since we're 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:54.240 covering the sea, I thought would be fun to slip 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:56.200 in a quick chat with one of our favorite authors, 0:01:56.440 --> 0:02:00.160 Julie Burwald. She wrote this lovely new book called Spineless. 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:03.280 It's all about jellyfish and and though octopus and squid 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:06.080 and jellyfish aren't exactly the same thing, it did feel 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:08.920 like a delicious seafood salad of an episode. But you 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:11.959 don't even eat octopus, maga. I know, you know, I 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:14.400 actually used to eat it, But then we did this 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:16.840 article on octopus and metal flass and they just seemed 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:21.160 too smart. And also it compared the creatures two kittens. Actually, 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:22.720 I pulled up this quote because I thought it was 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:26.000 so funny. Here to the chagrin of some scientists, these 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:29.920 cephalopods can run. As a pre vet student, Alexa Warburton 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:32.840 had the tricky task of scooping octopuses out of their tanks. 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:35.720 The stubborn animals would hide or squeeze into the tanks 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:39.120 cracks to avoid being removed. As a last ditch effort, 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:42.560 some octopuses would trampoline off the net, leap to the floor, 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:46.760 and take off zig zagging around the lab. It's like quote, 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:51.160 chasing a cat, Warburton told a Ryan Magazine. Yeah, I mean, 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:53.760 I feel like hurting octopus is the new herding cats. 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:55.720 But that there was a been in the story where 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:58.839 this octopus actually escaped into a scientists library, and when 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:01.239 the scientist walked in, he saw the octopus going through 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:03.840 each of his books, just turning the page away. Is 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:06.560 that actually true? Yeah, we fact checked it. I mean, 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:10.079 there's certainly escape artists, and they're kind of destructive. To 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:13.760 Scientific American reporter that two workers at the Santa Monica 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:17.240 Pier Aquarium walked in to find two gallons of seawater 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.440 soaking the floor of their new space. They try to 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:22.440 figure out what had happened, and they realized these two 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:27.240 octopus had quote disassembled a water recycling valve and redirected 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:29.480 the two to spew water out of the tank for 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.359 about ten hours. There must have been so much water 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:35.440 it ridiculous. But I mean that seems more playful than 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:38.600 means spirited, right, And obviously we know that octopus is 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:41.720 play not just from your Lewis and Mr Potato Head example, 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:45.320 but also because octopuses have been observed in boring situations 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:48.440 amusing themselves. So there was this one story I read 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:50.839 where this octopus and a tank was given like an 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:53.880 empty floating pill bottle, I think, and after enough time 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:55.960 it started flicking it into a jet of water in 0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:58.480 the aquarium and waiting for it to come back, then 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:01.040 doing it again and again in the scientists claimed it 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:03.000 was like watching a kid throw a ball against the wall, 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:06.720 but it did make me wonder how smarter octopus? And 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:09.640 so what did you find out? That octopus aren't really 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:13.320 very cooperative subjects? I mean, obviously they've got all these 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:16.280 skills right there, super strong, they can hide. Sometimes they 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:19.640 mimic other forms, and and you're talking specifically about the 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:22.440 mimic octopus. That's one of the types of octopus. Right. Yeah, 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:25.440 they're masters of disguise and changing their shapes, but they're 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:28.159 also good at going through mazes and solving little puzzles. 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:31.000 But all of that makes them really difficult to study. 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:33.040 So this is from a report I saw in the Guardian. 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:37.520 Apparently this paper tried to teach three octopus to pull 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:40.240 a lever for food. And we've seen this with you know, 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:43.000 monkeys and rats and other creatures. And first of all, 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:46.159 the octopus in the study have the best, most dignified names. 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:50.200 What's that They were called Albert, Bertram, and Charles. That's 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:52.839 what I would have named my octopus. That that is dignified. 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:56.040 So Albert and Bertram are really good subjects. They pulled 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:59.320 the levers in a quote reasonably consistent manner. According to 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:02.839 the study. It Charles, it turns out, is a total terror. 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:05.640 He tries to pull a light that's suspended above the 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:08.480 water into the tank. He squirts water at anyone who 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:11.839 gets close. He's basically taunting the scientists, and then he 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:14.200 ends the experiment by breaking off the levers so they 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:18.239 couldn't run the experiment anymore. I mean, Charles is totally gangster. 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:19.720 I mean, I have to admit I kind of like 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:22.800 Charles amusing to watch him. I feel like maybe there's 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:26.039 a whole episode to be done on octopus is behaving badly. 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:29.039 I mean they can undo latches and untied knots. I 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:31.960 even saw a story where scientists were complaining that octopus 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:34.520 would leave their lab tanks at night and then go 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:38.320 raid the neighboring tanks for food. There was one octopus 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:40.600 who was squirting water at the light switch to turn 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:43.160 it off, and then he short circuited the power. I mean, 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:46.200 these are these horror stories that come out, and clearly 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:48.960 they're kind of smart. But I wonder if we think 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:51.960 octopuses are especially smart because they look like, I don't know, 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:54.840 like aliens really, I mean they are alien like. I 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:56.800 don't think we'd be doing this episode if they weren't, 0:05:56.800 --> 0:06:00.480 and their entire class of mollus is called sephalopods, which 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:03.560 means head foot. They're all a bunch of head feet. 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:07.720 And to be clear, that category isn't just octopus and 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:11.479 includes squid and cuttle fish and nautilus is But there's 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:14.359 a big debate about whether they're really that smart. The 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:18.080 octopus have about a half billion neurons, and that's particularly 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:20.839 amazing for a creature without a backbone. But you know, 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:23.200 in reality, it puts them in the range of dogs. 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:25.839 So even though they might play with a Rubik's cube, 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:28.440 but it's not like they're consistently solving them or anything, 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:31.640 at least I haven't seen one. There's this old Burden 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:34.480 Ernie sketch from Sesame Street where Ernie walks in on 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:37.360 Burt and he says, that's amazing, Butt, you're playing checkers 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:40.960 with your pigeon, and Bert kind of whispers something like, Ernie, 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:43.320 it's not that impressive. Of the seven times we've played, 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:47.000 he's only one twice. I think one thing I read 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:49.360 that really convinced me of their intelligence was that when 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:52.240 they're faced with the problem, they actually changed strategies. How 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:55.480 do you mean so scientific? American pointed this out, but 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:59.360 Apparently octopuses are a little lazy, Like, they're obviously quite strong, 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:02.080 and if they're given muscles or clams, they'll go for 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:04.360 the muscles just because the meat is easier to get 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:06.760 to and the shells take less effort. But if the 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:08.680 clams are served on a half shell, you know, if 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:10.960 they're at a cocktail party or something, they'll go for 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:14.800 the tastier meteor options. But here's what's interesting. Right when 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:17.360 scientists passed the long muscles, but whyed a few of 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:20.000 the shells shut? The octopus tried to open it using 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:22.360 one method They can use their arms, but then they 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:24.400 also have this beak that they can use to chip 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:26.680 away at the shell. And then when that took too long, 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:29.160 they drilled a little hole in and injected a poison 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:32.800 to weaken the creature's defenses. Like all octopus and cuttlefish 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:35.520 have a poison reserve. But the octopus would use one 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:37.720 method and if that proved futile, they switched to a 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:40.440 different one. And the author's point was most creatures, when 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:42.160 they fail, they just keep trying to do the same 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:44.520 thing over and over rather than adjust their approach. That 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:46.480 is pretty cool, and I know we're going to get 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:49.400 into the giant squid and cracking and how octopus and 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:52.200 squid are different. But before we do, let's chat a 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:54.600 little bit more about the octopus. So what's one of 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:56.880 the more surprising things you learned about them and doing 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:00.800 your research this week. Uh, that they're not good swimmers, 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:03.320 I think was interesting to me, and the reasons even weirder. 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:05.840 It's all because they have three hearts, So they're not 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:08.640 good swimmers because they have Yeah. Actually that was surprising 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:10.559 to me too. I mean I read in smith sony 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:13.200 and that two of the hearts worked to move blood 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:16.240 beyond their gills. And obviously there's so many parts of 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:20.000 the octopus I didn't realize beaks and gills and ragul 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:22.760 which is kind of like a tiny drill for a tongue. Yeah, 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:24.760 and their penis is on one of their arms, which 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:26.960 I also never realized. I mean, I guess that's a 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:30.880 little weird too. You know that while some octopus mount 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:33.640 their partners, others will just stick their penis arm into 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:36.720 a cave where a female octopus is hiding, and so 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:40.480 they made in what's called the distance position. That's so ridiculous. 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:43.320 But we were talking about the three hearts. All right, 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:46.360 So the two hearts move blood beyond the gills, and 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:50.199 then the third heart is exclusively for pumping blood to organs. 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:53.680 But when they're swimming, they actually turned that heart off. 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:57.560 It stops beating entirely. So they get completely exhausted when 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:00.440 they move that way, and they mostly choose a walk 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:03.360 or crawl instead. But I like the idea that octopuses 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:06.400 actually enjoy long walks on the beach. But there's clearly 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:09.280 a ton more to say about these bizarre and wonderful creatures. 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:10.840 But I also want to get Julie on the phone 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:13.000 to talk about jellyfish. So how about we take a 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:14.600 little break for that and then we dive back in. 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:22.680 All right, let's do it, Mango. We've got a special 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:24.640 guest on the line with us today. She's the author 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:27.600 of a fascinating new book called Spineless, The Science of 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:31.360 Jellyfish and the Art of Growing a Backbone. Julie Berwald. 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:33.679 Welcome to part time Genius. Thank you so much for 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:37.280 having me so, Julie. Jellyfish are obviously these simple and 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:41.240 beautiful but also reviled creatures, and they cause problems for 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:44.240 swimmers and factories. I'm kind of curious why did you 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:47.360 choose to study the jellyfish. Yeah, I mean it's true, 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:50.360 and and there's something about what you just said that 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:54.480 made them really fascinating to me, because, um, you know, 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:57.240 you couldn't put polar bears in this like box of like, oh, 0:09:57.280 --> 0:10:02.320 they're so you know, impress sieve and and beautiful and 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:06.960 big and they they are this charismatic creature and but 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:12.319 jellys have more subtlety to them. You know, they're undeniably beautiful, 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:15.240 and yet you're right, like they can be lethal and 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:19.560 they can be as you know, a symbol of ecosystem demise. 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:22.560 And there was something about that, the fact that they 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:25.320 kind of walked it back and forth across these lines 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:30.000 in our minds that I found super fascinating. And they're 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:32.280 just such strange creatures too. I know you've written that 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:34.520 they can see light without eyes. Do you do you 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:37.000 mind just taking a minute for our listeners and describe 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:39.120 a little bit of their biology and and and what 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:41.600 some of the more curious things about their bodies that 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:45.160 you've found. Um, yeah, so you know, they are super simple. 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:48.760 They have just like we have three cell layers that 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:51.640 we have an end their deerm and exoderm, which is 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:54.080 like our skin, our outside skin, and then in between 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:56.559 we have this musoderm that holds all our organs and everything, 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:59.560 and jelly fish just don't have that. They have jelly inside. 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:04.160 It's truly it's called mesoglia, and it's a cellular and 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:10.400 so um they have this really cool ability that they 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:14.160 they're like big. They're like a balloon, right, So they 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:16.280 have skin on the outside, skin on the inside, and 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:19.720 then something that they don't have to support metabolically on 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:22.880 the inside. So they get away with being big at 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:26.600 very low metabolic cost. And that's part of what makes 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:30.280 them so successful. And that's why I called the book Spineless, 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:34.040 because they're very spinelessness is actually contributing to their um 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:38.520 increase in abundances in many places in our oceans. I 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:42.120 went to go visit these um scientists in Woodhole who 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:44.800 work at the Marine Biological Laboratory there, and they were 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:48.760 the Navy had given them money to build robotic jellyfish, 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:52.440 and they weren't entirely certain what the Navy wanted to 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:54.680 do with these robotic jelly miss that they were pretty 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:58.320 excited about the opportunity, and so they created this jellyfish 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:02.599 out of silicone and sort of like fake muscles called actuators. 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:05.480 And when they turned it on um it squeezed and 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:07.840 it squeezed shut, and that causes a jet of water 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:10.360 to come out behind it, which pushes on the water 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:12.720 and it moves the jellyfish forward. But then when it 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.440 opened back up, it went right back to its starting 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:17.640 place like a yo yo. And they were like, oh, 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:21.720 what's going on, And so they this graduate student was like, well, 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:24.920 you know that peplum around the edge of the jellyfish, 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:28.439 that part that's kind of beautiful that just flops around. 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:30.520 The graduate student was like, I didn't have time to 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:33.720 glue that little flap on the robot. So they pulled 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:35.440 it out of the water and they glued it on. 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:37.559 They put it back in the water, and they turned 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:41.160 it on and it's it's They turned it on and 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:43.200 it squeezed and it jetted forward, and then when it 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:46.559 opened up, it actually continued going forward. And then it 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:48.760 squeezed again and it went forward farther, and then it 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:50.959 opened and it continued going forward. And it turns out 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:55.640 that that little flexible flap is is what drives part 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.160 of what drives the jellyfish forward. In the water. It 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:03.000 gives it the push backwards. But then they figured out, um, 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:05.640 it doesn't only give it a push backwards, it actually 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:09.600 creates a low pressure zone in front of the jellyfish. 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:13.240 Like the bending kind of creates the suction in front 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:17.360 of the jellyfish, and that suction pulls the animal forward 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:19.880 through the water. And then they started looking at all 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:23.199 these other animals and if you think about it, everything 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:26.760 in the ocean or in water, then when it moves 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.640 like nothing solid, like the way we build both they 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:32.560 all bend. And the reason for that bending is because 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:35.320 it creates this low pressure in front of the animal 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:37.640 that pulls it through the water. So we've thought about, 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:42.960 um swimming completely backwards. It turns out that um, the 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:45.800 forces you know in front of the jelly fish pulling 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:49.000 it are stronger than the forces behind the jellyfish pushing it. 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:52.320 And because we're terrestrial and all we can do is 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:56.240 push backwards in order to go forwards, we just completely 0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:00.720 misunderstood swimming for our whole all of subtle antion really 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:05.240 and then, um, yeah, it's a really cool story. All right. Well, 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:07.120 speaking of travel, I know you traveled all the way 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:10.120 to Japan to see the giant jellyfish there, So so 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:12.560 what makes it so extraordinary and why did you make 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:15.520 the trip there to see it? Yeah, this jelly fish 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:20.320 is really really interesting. Um it grows to being five pound, 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:23.920 which is like the size of a refrigerator. Yeah, it's massive, 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:28.720 massive jelly fish, you know. And throughout the twentieth century, 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:32.560 this jellyfish was seen in just off the coast of Japan, 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:35.840 but only about every thirty years. So because the kind 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:38.320 of thing where like a fisherman would tell his son like, 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:41.480 well that you're the giant jellyfish showed up, you know, 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:43.960 look out for them, and then thirty years later the 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:45.680 sun would be like, oh, yeah, this is what my 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:49.000 dad told me about. And then in the twenty one 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:54.320 century they started appearing every year, and not just every year, 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:58.880 but like in enormous numbers, where the entire cy would 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:02.480 be just these huge and they're sort of maroon, these 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:06.000 maroon giant blobs of jellyfish for as far as the 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:10.080 eye could see. And there's pictures of fishing boats with 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:14.960 their nets just the sea of maroon jelly. One fishing 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:17.560 vessel collected so many of these giant jellyfish that it 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:20.120 actually the weight of them in their nets, flips the 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:24.520 boat over and threw the crew into the sea. And 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:26.920 I just want to ask very quickly. You know, for 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:28.840 years people have been saying that jellyfish are gonna be 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:32.200 winners in this world of climate change. But why is 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:34.960 it important that we have a balanced population of jellyfish? 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:38.600 The questions look really complex, and I think that we 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:41.400 have a tendency to look at the ocean is like 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:44.520 this one big place, and in fact, you know, the 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:48.600 ocean is a really uh diverse, dynamic place that has 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:53.320 lots of different ecosystems, lots of latitudes and longitudes, different temperatures, 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:57.440 different salinities and so and different kinds of pressures that 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:00.200 we're putting on the ocean. So in some places is 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:04.000 already jellyfish are dominating the ecosystem. And those are the 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:06.600 places that we should look to to say, like do 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:09.320 we want our oceans in other places to become like that? 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:12.680 And Um, a good example is off the coast in 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:16.960 Namibia where they really really over fished the ocean. Um, 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:19.760 there was not good controls on what was happening. In fact, 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:23.040 Numidia was under the offices of South Africa for a 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:25.880 long time and South Africa didn't monitor what was happening 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:28.440 in Nimidia, and these big commercial ships came in from 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:32.840 other countries and just fished it like crazy and opened 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:37.920 up ecological niches for jellyfish. And it used to be 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.160 one of the richest fisheries in the world, where like 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:43.840 a million tons of fish every year could be fished easily, 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:48.200 and then the jellyfish we're able to get a foothold, 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:51.360 and now the biomass is like two to three times 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:54.880 more jellyfish than fish there, and the seals and birds 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:57.440 there's reports of them starving because there's just not enough 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:00.640 fish for them to eat anymore. So the reason why 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:03.440 we want to pay attention to this is because we 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:06.560 could end up with ecosystems where birds and fields are starving, 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:09.840 and I don't think anyone wants that kind of situation. 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:14.120 Big bloom fish jellyfish can also sweep into fish farm 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:16.920 and about a month ago a huge bloom swept into 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.560 a fish farm in Scotland and killed like a quarter 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:24.920 or a a million famine overnight. So the yeah, the numbers, 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:28.159 you know, start to add up of the devastation that 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:31.919 jellyfish can cause. Not to mention the sting, the stings 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:37.320 that you know heard us very personally and individually in 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:40.919 the water and emotionally and and all of that. And 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:43.840 our our friend John would have very much appreciated you 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:46.280 having been there to educate him before he jumped in 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:48.040 the water. Do you remember this mango when we were 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:50.560 on a trip and the and the keys and he 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:52.400 we were out in a boat and he looks out 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:53.880 and he says, I don't think those are the kind 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:56.560 of jellyfish that staying. And there was a large school 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:58.560 of them, I guess, and he jumped in the water. 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:00.400 He says, these are the kind of thing, the kind 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:04.720 of thing. So it did not it did not go well. 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:07.160 So mainly this episode is to try to get him 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:08.919 to learn a little bit more and not make the 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:11.919 same mistake. So if you get stung by a jellyfish, 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:16.240 the thing you ushould do is hot water and vinegar. Julie, 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:19.000 this is such a wonderful read. The book is called Spineless, 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:22.199 The Science of Jellyfish in the Art of Growing Up Backbone. Julie, 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:24.200 thanks so much for joining us on Part Time Genius. 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:40.760 Welcome back to Part Time Genius. We're talking squid, octopus 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:44.200 and jellyfish. So we've been chatting octopuses for a while 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:46.359 and we need to move on to squid. But before 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:48.520 we do, why don't we reel off some of our 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:51.800 favorite octopus Definitely? What are some of the weirder ones 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:53.879 you want to talk about? Well, I love Louis. You 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:57.280 know the cantankerous giant pacific octopus we were talking about 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:00.560 also from that article. He was only ex feet but 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:03.439 they can actually grow to be about sixteen ft and 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:07.080 way up to six hundred pounds. Wow. Each arm has 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:10.280 about two hundred and eighty suckers and they lay up 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:14.520 to ninety thousand eggs at a time. Nine eggs, I know, 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:18.080 that's a lot of omelets. Well, one octopus I like, 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:19.639 on the other end of the spectrum is this thing 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:23.160 called the octopus wolfe, which is the world's smallest octopus. 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:26.280 It's like an inch long and ways less than a graham. Yeah. 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:28.119 I guess kind of like kind of like a pocket 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:32.480 octopus exactly, and it's perfect for travel. But that doesn't 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:35.480 mean they're not wildy. So, according to a Newsweek article, 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:38.120 a two thousand four study gave them a six out 0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:41.280 of ten on likelihood of escaping a tank. All right, Well, 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:44.040 speaking of tiny octopus, this one's totally weird. It's called 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:47.240 the blanket octopus. And while the females are a tall 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:50.840 and leggy six ft long, the males are only about 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.960 an inch tall. How crazy is that? How's that possible? 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:57.200 I have no idea. But their mating technique is equally weird. 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:00.520 So here's how Newsweek described it. To breathe, the male 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:04.240 sticks his specialized mating arm inside the female and breaks 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:07.200 it off. He then swims away with only seven legs 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:12.000 and dies shortly after octopus romance. But the creatures are 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:15.959 even more interesting than that. Actually, well, the female blanket 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:18.800 octopus is is more of a swimmer, so instead of 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:21.680 hiding in caves, will actually swim in the open water, which, 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:24.640 as we've talked about, it is pretty unusual for an octopus. 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:27.440 And it fans out like a giant blanket whenever it 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:30.520 senses a threat. But it's the tiny male that's the 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:33.840 real character. So blanket octopuses are immune to man of 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:37.160 wars things, so when something is attacking a blanket male, 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:40.280 it'll just break off a poisonous tentacle of a Portuguese 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:42.720 man of war and then whip it around like crazy, 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:45.280 you know, the swashbuckle against its enemies. It's I mean, 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:48.439 they're pretty feisty. Actually, well, I do want to come 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:51.359 back to octopuses food and this whole etiquette of throwing 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:54.600 them at red wings games, because there's some strict rules there. 0:20:54.880 --> 0:20:56.960 But let's get in the squid. So what are some 0:20:57.000 --> 0:21:01.000 of the characteristics of squid. So here, the basic squids 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:03.240 are really good hunters. First of all, I mean, much 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:06.560 like octopus, they've got beaks and radula, so they have 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:09.920