1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: The volume. The Colin Cowherd Podcast brought to you by 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: Fan Duel. It's never been easier to play fantasy on 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: Fan Duel, whether he love basketball, golf, soccer, or any 4 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: fantasy sport. There is a contest for every fan Fan 5 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: Duel more ways to win. My guest today is the 6 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: New York Times best selling author James Andrew Millard. He's 7 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: written the Definitive Oral Histories of Saturday Night Live ESPN 8 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: CIA and the latest is called Tinderbox, will detail the 9 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: history of HBO. He also writes and hosts The podcast. 10 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: Origins about the beginnings of major TV shows, movies, sports teams. 11 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: The most recent episode chronicles the making of the movie 12 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: Almost Famous. Kind of fascinating, really. We listened and features 13 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 1: in depth interviews with the cast and crew, introducing now 14 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: James Andrew Miller. So you generally James Exclusive Legal, Big 15 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: Game Hunting. So HBO is your next book, and you know, 16 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 1: it's interesting to me. There was an elegance to HBO. 17 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 1: They were the first and paid you know, perview TV, 18 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: pay for TV. But it's not linear, as you know, James. 19 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: ESPN at one point was the biggest earner for Disney 20 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: and they've had rough patches and now perhaps with the ESPN, 21 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: you know, plus they're rebounding. What was the high point 22 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,680 Speaker 1: to you in the history of HBO and what has 23 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: been the low point? Oh gosh, well, you know, it's 24 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: forty nine years. And I think that one of the 25 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: things that I've come to realize about HBO is that 26 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: it's almost like this topsy turvy roller coaster ride where 27 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: it's there's nothing sing. There have been high points, and 28 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: there have been load points, and there have been more 29 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: high points and then more load points. It's not there's 30 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: not like, it's not there's not a single trajectory. And 31 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: I think that much like ESPN and CIA and SNL, 32 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: these are all four places that started from the most 33 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: humble of beginnings in the nineteen seventies and went on 34 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: to be big brands. I think that one of the 35 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: things that I've come away from is it's not a continuum. 36 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,679 Speaker 1: It's not it's not one single narrative. And I think 37 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: that that, to me has been the most fascinating charting 38 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: that and tracing the pedigree of these various successes and 39 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: failures along the way. There was a little bit of 40 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: a narrative that you know, when the Netflix model came out, 41 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: hulsing Netflix, Amazon Prime, that HBO was not as effective. 42 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: But but from simply anecdotal standpoint, I still watch a 43 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: lot of HBO. Are their numbers vibrant? Now? Are they 44 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: doing okay? Because I still find a lot of their 45 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: content excellent. Well, you know, the whole numbers game is 46 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: so interesting with HBO because for much of their history 47 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: they didn't really care about rating, right right, I mean, 48 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: by the way, the greatest thing about premium pay TV 49 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: is you can call anything to success. Keep it on. 50 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: It's not like it's not like every Tuesday morning the 51 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: numbers come out, right if you take away the ratings, 52 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: it's like, I don't I mean, you could have a 53 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: show that where friends and relatives are watching, just keep 54 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: it on, just said, well, it's a success, We're thrilled 55 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: with it. I just think it's fantastic. And so a 56 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: lot of times they didn't have to worry about that baggage. Now, 57 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: of course, everybody's into how many subs HBO Max has 58 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: versus how many Disney Plus has versus Peacock and everything else. 59 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: So there are some metrics that get in the way. 60 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: But I think that One of the things that HBO 61 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: clearly proved, particularly once the New Century began, was that 62 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: they were going to try and be as independent of 63 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: the ratings as asy as they possibly could. You know, James, 64 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: it's really funny there is a cottage industry that monitors ratings. 65 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: I always laugh when people say, well, this NFL playoff 66 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: game was down two percent, as if networks get money back, 67 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 1: you know, when the numbers are down. I mean, the 68 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: NFL basically tells every network what you're going to pay, 69 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: and that's what you pay. Do you think there's too 70 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: much concern about actual ratings. I wish people would talk 71 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: more about content and less about ratings. But I do 72 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: think there's an industry of people who follow it, get retweeted, 73 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 1: and it's it's become a thing, right because it's an 74 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 1: organizing principle for the ecosystem, right, I mean, it's it's 75 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: how they sell air time. It's how they sometimes decide, 76 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 1: particularly in the broadcast networks, whether or not something can endure. 77 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,720 Speaker 1: You know. The Wire, for instance, on HBO was never 78 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 1: a huge hit in terms of numbers. Really, Oh my gosh, 79 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: oh yeah, oh yeah, it was never a huge hit, 80 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: but it was a critical success. It was. It is 81 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: certainly one of the great dramas that's that have ever 82 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: appeared on television, HBO or elsewhere, And so they were 83 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,119 Speaker 1: able to turn their you know, turn their attention away 84 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: from that. If if The Wire had been on a 85 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 1: broadcast network, that thing would have been baked. After see, 86 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 1: is there anything at HBO you've discovered James Miller joining 87 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 1: us that actually did better The antithesis of the Wire 88 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:55,119 Speaker 1: did better than people like me would guess. Oh sure, 89 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: oh sure. There have been plenty of surprises, because at 90 00:05:57,640 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: the end of the day, we still have William Goldman 91 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: in a scenariar that nobody knows anything. So I think 92 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 1: that even though they sometimes greenlit a show and put 93 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: a show on, they might have had modest expectations and 94 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: then all of a sudden interrupts. And again, there's a 95 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: lot of different ways to define success. Maybe there was 96 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: a show that they put on where they didn't think 97 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: in my garner high numbers, but all of a sudden 98 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,239 Speaker 1: it became a critical favorite, or it became a cult favorite, 99 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: or it started winning a ton of awards or something. 100 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: So there's enough things out there where they could define 101 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: things in any way they want to justify what they 102 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: were doing. Yeah, you know, I was obviously a big 103 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: Sopranos fan. It literally changed my Sunday night viewing. And 104 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 1: I always thought Jim Lampley was sort of the epitome 105 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: of what boxing blow by blow should be. So I 106 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: had my favorites. I'm a huge Bill Maher fan, have 107 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: been for years. I think John Oliver is very clever. 108 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 1: But was it difficult when you go after some of 109 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: these and not go after its oral history? So you 110 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,239 Speaker 1: you are quoting people throughout? Was HBO more or less 111 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: difficult to get people to talk? Are there a lot 112 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: of people that are celebratory in terms of it, very 113 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: proud of it? Or is there some is it at 114 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: times a little covert and secretive when you go after 115 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: an HBO. Well, this time I'm doing a lot more 116 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: of my own writing. I've interviewed over six and twenty 117 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: five people and so that's been great and I've been 118 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: really blessed by the cooperation. But I also feel like 119 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: there's an opportunity to do a lot more writing this time, 120 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: and I think that, you know, look, a lot of 121 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: people feel very very attached to HBO, even if they've 122 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: gone on to other places. It's I've heard from stars 123 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: and directors, executives who work there. It is this place 124 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: that winds up being a really big and powerful and 125 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: emotional blip on people's radars in their lives. And uh 126 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: and so that's been, you know, pretty much a constant theme. 127 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: By the way, Lampley is ridiculous because you know, you 128 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: talk to him and oh, by the way that that 129 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: fight between this one and that way, Oh yeah, I 130 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: know that he tells you the date that he says, yeah, 131 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: that third round two minutes and thirteen seconds, the third 132 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: round when he flew the when he threw that left hook. 133 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: I mean, it's like, lamps, are you kidding me? Like, 134 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: is there's somebody that's bugging my computer? And you knew 135 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 1: I was gonna mention that to you? How to hell 136 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: do you do? You know that? Twenty five years later? Yeah, he's, um, 137 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 1: he's cost us like and that he's encyclopedic with his knowledge. 138 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: But you know, he he wanted to initially be an executive, 139 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,679 Speaker 1: So I think he's always seen the broadcast from an 140 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: executive and producing point of view, because, as you know, 141 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: unlike other sports, boxing can become a circus, James very 142 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: quickly with live events and live interviews and promoters. We've 143 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:06,559 Speaker 1: had fights in the ring. And I always thought Jim 144 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 1: was unique in that he broadcast as a producer. Well, 145 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: I'm just a broadcaster or a cost us or al Michaels. 146 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: I always thought Jim attacked it differently. That was always 147 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,079 Speaker 1: my view on Jim, that he's one of the few 148 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: on air people that could have been an executive. And 149 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: when you interviewed him, do you get that sense of 150 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: depth of knowledge beyond just broadcasting. Yes, because he's always 151 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: a step ahead in terms of understanding what the company 152 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: was going through as well. So as a result, he's 153 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: able to anticipate like, for instance, you know there was 154 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: he understands when a fighter is about to go to 155 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: a different network and why he understands. He's very proactive. 156 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: His entire intellect is about being proactive, anticipating things, thinking 157 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: about things before even his bosses were doing it. And 158 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: as a result, it's both a blessing and a curse 159 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: because he's got so much that he's thinking about all 160 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: the time. It's actually pretty extraordinary that he's as clear 161 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: and clean and precise as he is on the broadcast 162 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: because he has so many things in his head. I 163 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: think the last time we spoke Jim, we said there 164 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: was a lot of dust in the air and it 165 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: would settle over the next two years. So we've had 166 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: a you know, six months or so since we last 167 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: spoke about the streaming wars and the fluidity in the 168 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 1: real game of what's happening now. Everything is changing. Do 169 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: you feel in the last six months that the broadcast industry, 170 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: maybe the cable industry ott that it's gotten its footing 171 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: a little and there's a little more stability and direction. 172 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: Do you feel more confidently about it less confidently? Where 173 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: do you stand today? I still think that we're not 174 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: going to be able to have the number of players 175 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: that we have now, let's say four or five years 176 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 1: from now. But I think what the pandemic has done 177 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: is it me is it has made things. This is 178 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: not the greatest laboratory for us to really understand things 179 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: because you have all these different strategies out there. You 180 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: have people spending a lot more time at home, so 181 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 1: their willingness to subscribe to things might be bigger than 182 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: it will be once they get out and about. So 183 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: it's a very delicate time. But I do think that 184 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: we're starting to see though is I mean, look, it 185 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 1: used to be a question of when people would move 186 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: to streaming or when they would I mean, look all 187 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: that tooth pieces out of the tube. So we've officially 188 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: entered a new era. And I think that everybody understands that. 189 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: So we'll see how it shakes out. But I can't 190 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: imagine all these players, you know, some of these players 191 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,199 Speaker 1: not be being gobbled up by others in the next 192 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: several years. The next time you're watching basketball, I've got 193 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: the perfect way for you to get in on the 194 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:06,719 Speaker 1: action for free. I'm talking about NBA in Play, absolutely 195 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: free to play of the FanDuel app and features all 196 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: the fun of live betting. 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It takes less than two minutes 207 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: to sign up. I did. It's a breeze and it 208 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: doesn't matter where you live or where you're traveling to 209 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: because NBA in Play is available in every state. Don't 210 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: miss your shot. Get in the game and download the 211 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: FanDuel app to start playing NBA in Play today. You know, 212 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: a few years ago you had said ESPN had a 213 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: troubled marriage with social media, and again, just on a 214 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: personal note, in the last year, I've sort of changed 215 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: my social media. I'm more active on Instagram, which which 216 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: feels to me like a happier place, a more joyful existence. Um. 217 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 1: I've put up filters on Twitter. I no longer I 218 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: just sometimes I don't post for long stretches. When I do, 219 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 1: I don't get any feedback because I've got so many 220 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: filters on. And I do think these companies are trying 221 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: to get rid of trolls as quickly as they can. 222 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: But I have noticed, um, you know, I I've moved 223 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: off and away more from Twitter in more toward Instagram. 224 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 1: Do you think the networks and their personalities ESPN as one, 225 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: How have they dealt with it? Where are they at? 226 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: Where do you think we're at in terms of you know, 227 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: there was a there was about a two year stretch 228 00:13:54,960 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: where you know, companies were suspending people on a weekly basis. Well, 229 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: say goodbye to all that, because this has been the 230 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 1: most fundamental paradigm shift we've seen since two thousand and 231 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: nine when social media really started to get activated. You remember, 232 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: ESPN was not only throwing out suspensions, but they were 233 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: being incredibly controlling in terms of what their talent and producers, 234 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: all employees for that matter, we're saying on social media. 235 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: And now because of all the social unrest and some 236 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: of what we've gone through as a society on a 237 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: variety of issues like racial equality and others, they realized 238 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: that they could not hold back anymore. And so it 239 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: is once again the wild wild West. And I think 240 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: that as a result, you're starting to see that the 241 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: companies there's no you know, like, we don't want sports continue, 242 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: we don't want sports mixing with politics, which was always 243 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: a dubious proposition. It was almost impossible to legislate or enforce. 244 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: And now you have people at ESPN and other places 245 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: I mean unless they unless they say something hateful, unless 246 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: they say something personally disgusting. They can share their personal 247 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: views in a way that they've never been able to 248 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: do before. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. Now we have 249 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: an exploding podcast space and exploding sports gaming space, and 250 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: podcasting is interesting. As you know, you're on the volume sports. 251 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: This is my new little company. Everybody, you know, there's 252 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: countless people at Fox have their own. I've got a company, 253 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: you know, cousin sal has one. You know, it's interesting. 254 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: It used to be that a broadcaster like me or 255 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: a sportscaster, you know, I basically had two companies to 256 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: choose from. Now I can control large chunks of my 257 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: audio space. Do you do you think that makes companies 258 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: uncommon comfortable or do you think they've come to the 259 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: realization to keep elite talent, you can't own them. They're 260 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: going to have some personal control, right, I mean, I 261 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: think that there's been a journey about intellectual property that's 262 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: really important. When you were at ESPN, just think about 263 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: the constraints that they had on you in terms of 264 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: your expansion and your own identity and your own IP 265 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: that they realize now that they have to let people 266 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: like yourself become entrepreneurs, and there's a variety of revenue 267 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: streams and creative outlets that they may or may not 268 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: be able to control just by making a deal. And 269 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: so as a result, these deals have been getting a 270 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: lot more complicated and people have a lot more opportunities 271 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: now and flexibility about what they do. James Miller joining me. 272 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: He's written a definitive books on HBO Sturday Night Live, 273 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: ESPN CIA and the latest to Tinderbox details the history 274 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: of HBO. Something as a kid, I don't think my 275 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 1: family could afford, but I've come to love it through Boxing, 276 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 1: Bill Maher and other shows. Sopranos for me was most notable. 277 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 1: So there was a company out there that lasted very 278 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: briefly a quibbi and anytime you have a great success, 279 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: that's copied anytime you have a great failure. It is 280 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: also it's a great cautionary tale. So were you shocked 281 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: that it went sideways so fast? And what is the 282 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 1: lesson in your opinion to be learned about that. We'll 283 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: start with the second question first, because I think the big, 284 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: big lesson which we've seen from time to time, but 285 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: the truth is it's a it's a helpful memory. Is 286 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: that reminder is that Jeffrey Katzenberg, Meg Whitman, people like 287 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: Doug Herzag extraordinarily haunted people with unbelievable pedigrees, terrific track records. 288 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that they're guaranteed success. Now. I think 289 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: one of the things that Jeffrey pointed out was that 290 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 1: quild Be started right when the pandemic did, and that's 291 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: that could be deleterious to their fortunes. You know, some 292 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: people say that that didn't matter, but the truth is 293 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: that they were well funded, they had a really really 294 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: smart management team, smart creative people, and it still failed. 295 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: So I think it's you know, I was I was 296 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: kind of intrigued to see whether or not it was 297 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: going to work. I didn't know for sure because I 298 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: hadn't seen any of their product, but it was very 299 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: clear pretty quickly that the marketplace wasn't really interested, it 300 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 1: wasn't intrigued by what was going on there. Yeah, you know, 301 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 1: you know, it's interesting when I look at I'm not 302 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: surprised Disney is now a liable contender for Netflix. And 303 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,360 Speaker 1: I should start by saying that is true, right, that 304 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: that Disney Plus is working, is successful, has surpassed expectations? 305 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: Is that true? Oh yes, yes, okay, absolutely their own 306 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 1: and the marketplaces. Okay, So if Disney and Netflix are 307 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 1: they leaders in that streaming space? Is there a third 308 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: is there one you think will be? Is there a 309 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: top five that is this morning clear and definitive. Well, 310 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,880 Speaker 1: remember something, since the goal here is to be profitable, 311 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: and you don't have to be as you don't have 312 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: to be as big as Netflix or Disney Plus to 313 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: be quote unquote successful. So the question is Peacock and 314 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: Hbomax and now Paramount Apple plus lots of other places 315 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: that are doing streaming, is there room for them to 316 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 1: have their own path without being the behemoth that Netflix is, 317 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: without being the behemoth that Disney Plus is. I mean, look, 318 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: Netflix has always enjoy a bit of an advantage because 319 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: they're perceived as a tech company. So even they don't 320 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,880 Speaker 1: have to show earnings, right, they have this wonderful presence 321 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: in the stock market, and they just they're playing by 322 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 1: different rules. And so the question is I think that 323 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 1: there's one of the things that you're starting to see 324 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: now is that these some of these other streamers are 325 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: touting their own success stories, but they just don't have 326 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: the volume they are the numbers that Netflix does. But 327 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that they can't be profitable, successful and 328 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,679 Speaker 1: still something that people want. You know. One of the 329 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 1: things that's been interesting, this may sound political, but it's 330 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: certainly not intended to be. The New York Times over 331 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: the last six months to a year has had some 332 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: dust ups within the newspaper where there are claims by 333 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: senior members or people that have left that a very outspoken, young, 334 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: dealistic left wing is often asking for unrealistic goals and articles, 335 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 1: and you've seen people displaced there, people let go, people 336 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: having to defend the New York Times turf. You know, 337 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: Bill Morrows says, you know, as long as we don't 338 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: go crazy, we should win. The left should win all 339 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: these elections. What do you make of what has happened 340 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: to the New York Times where often they have to 341 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: defend their turf within their own newsroom. Are you is 342 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 1: that part of vibrant journalism? Is that part of being 343 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 1: you know, the paper of record? Or do you think 344 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 1: it's worrisome at some point? Well, not to weasel out, 345 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: but since I do work for the New York Times, 346 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: from time to time you might not be getting the 347 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: most objective answer. Look, I think the bottom line is 348 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: that news organizations, whether they be on air or in 349 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: print or or digital or whatever, particularly something as big 350 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: and as important with a long history as the New 351 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,360 Speaker 1: York Times, people pay a lot of attention to not 352 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: just what they produce, but what's going on behind the scenes. 353 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: And that is, you know, the New York Times is 354 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: used to covering the White House or a CNN or 355 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: something like that, and looking at the back room machinations 356 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 1: and executive developments and all these how decisions are made 357 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: and personnel changes, and it's probably pretty uncomfortable when people 358 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 1: do it to them, and they've gone through, uh, you know, 359 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 1: their fair share of of of challenges. But I think 360 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: that you know, look, h Dean Pickay and others. I 361 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: think they're trying to communicate as best as they can 362 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 1: about why some of these decisions have been made and 363 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 1: trying to at the same time keep their their their 364 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 1: news room happy and be keep optics about the brand habby. 365 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting cable. Obviously, the more dogmatic your 366 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: opinions ideologically driven, usually the larger audiences you get. And 367 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 1: I do think at times it pulls at more centrist 368 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: and reporter reporting based outlets that they feel almost obligated to, 369 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: even if not having strong opinions, respond to strong opinions 370 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: from the left or right. Overall? How did you think 371 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: the coverage cable TV, broadcast, network, print, journalism, podcast, whatever 372 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: you want? How did they handle the election? Trump is 373 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: a I mean, it's true, you're gonna get dirty when 374 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: talking Trump. I mean that's just the reality of covering him. Overall? 375 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 1: How did you think the media coverage stacked up? I mean, look, 376 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 1: it's it's really like it's about theology, really, because it's 377 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: almost like you're picking your church or your synagogue or whatever. 378 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: You want to be comforted if you have a certain 379 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: if you have certain ideological predilections, or you feel more 380 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: comfortable with a certain candidate or a certain party or whatever. 381 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: There are places that you can go and you go 382 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: there and you go to Tucker Carlson at nine o'clock 383 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 1: if you're feeling in you know, in sync with his thought. 384 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: So you go to be comforted, You go to to 385 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 1: be reminded that somebody out there is thinking and saying 386 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: what you're what you believe in, You go there because 387 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: you want to be armed with some things to say 388 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 1: to you know, perhaps somebody who's one hundred eighty degrees 389 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: different than you are the next morning at the at 390 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: the coffee machine, and it doesn't matter what you think. 391 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 1: There is a place for you to go. And there 392 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: are very there are fewer and fewer Americans who don't 393 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 1: feel like they're they want to operate between the proverbial 394 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: forty yard lines. They understand what they they want and 395 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: they don't want to hear they don't want to go 396 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: and listen to somebody who's saying something totally the opposite. 397 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: So it's a it's a coping mechanism, it's a it's 398 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 1: a comfort, it's a it's a reinforcement and uh, and 399 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 1: I think that we're you know, sometimes people talk about 400 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: the fact that everything is so fractured out there, and 401 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: that's true. But what it has done is it's given 402 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 1: people the opportunity to be in, you know, to watch 403 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,959 Speaker 1: people who they really care about and they agree with. 404 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: What do you consume? I consume, Well, when I'm not 405 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: on deadline, I get in the morning. I have about 406 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: seven or eight digital packages that come to me from 407 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: either individual papers or different services, and I I cram 408 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: through them. I want to I know who I want 409 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: to read, I know what I want to read. I have. 410 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: I have kind of customized it as as much as possible, 411 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: and then I have probably one or two vehicles where 412 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 1: there are things that should surprise me. I do think 413 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: I'm like you a lot. I'm really bad on Twitter. 414 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: I don't take enough time to tweet, but I love 415 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: Twitter four It's delivery system. I mean, I can you know, 416 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,879 Speaker 1: can read about art and science and other things that 417 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: I don't have time for. And so in my feed 418 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 1: on Twitter, I can see things come up and I think, oh, 419 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: that's interesting that I can click on that and go 420 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: deeper into that. But usually every morning I'm very curated, 421 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:37,719 Speaker 1: so I have a i know, between sports and politics, music, film, 422 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: all my kind of hot buttons. I like starting the 423 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: day being, you know, making sure that I'm covered in 424 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: terms of what's happened overnight. CHRD cutting accelerated probably seven 425 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: to eight years ago, where it became a deep concern 426 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 1: for the broadcast companies. It could have been ten years, 427 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 1: but for me it was about eight when I started 428 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 1: hearing the term. It's decelerated a little because now these 429 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: you know, streaming packages and pay TV they cost as 430 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: much as cable. Do you think because it has sports 431 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:19,679 Speaker 1: and politics and those both drive discussions in America? Do 432 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: you think there's a time do we hit a do 433 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 1: we hit a floor with cable sports? Or is everything 434 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: eventually streaming and the end is near? Where do you 435 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: think cable goes over the next decade? Well, I mean, look, 436 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,360 Speaker 1: ESPN was at what one hundred million homes and nods 437 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 1: down to seventy eight. I think there's no doubt about 438 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 1: the direction. But remember, though, there's cable and then there's 439 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: the cable companies. And several years ago it was interesting 440 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: to note when Comcast shifted and was now making more 441 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: money from data than they were from cable. You know, 442 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: so this whole streaming world, you're still you got to 443 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: pay for the bandwidth. I mean, unless there's some little 444 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: tour you have in the backyard that's going to enable 445 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: you to get all these all these things. You know, 446 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: how do you watch Netflix? Oh he's oh, I know, 447 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: I get my you know, I get my bandwidth from 448 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: Comcast or I get it from Spectrum or something. So 449 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: those companies aren't going away. I think that was the 450 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: big mistake that a lot of people thought, oh that's 451 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: the you know, the declining numbers and with cable boxes 452 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: are going to mean the death of cable companies, and 453 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: that hasn't necessarily been proven to be the truth. I 454 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 1: think that one of the things though, that there's a 455 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: big goat, big goal out there for is now is 456 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: that you have YouTube. For instance, some a friend of 457 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: mine figured they were able to subscribe to YouTube and 458 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: it's fifty percent less than the cable company. Yeah, and 459 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: they're getting everything that they want with the premium channels 460 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: and everything else. So there's a lot of different ways 461 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: that you can find your own way now in the marketplace, 462 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: which may it even harder for quote unquote the cable box. 463 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: I mean, look, I don't I don't think. I mean, 464 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: my son laughed at me when he moved into his 465 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: department and I said, you know, don't we have to 466 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: wait for the cable guy. He looked at me like 467 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: I was, you know, on crack. He was like, yeah, 468 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: all right, I'm paying two hundred dollars a month dead 469 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: forget it. And so I don't think we're going to 470 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: be seeing, you know, an expansion of cable boxes at own, 471 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: but they're certainly going to be as we get more 472 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,479 Speaker 1: and more technologically savvy about this, there's going to be 473 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: like YouTube and everything else, gonna be a ton of 474 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: delivery systems. Yeah. You know, it's interesting when I walk 475 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: around anybody under twenty five says they watch me on 476 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: my YouTube or Twitter clips. Older people listen to me 477 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: on off an AM radio or or watch me on television. 478 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: But there, as you pointed out, there are you know 479 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: in my deal with Fox and Premiere. I've got all 480 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: sorts of platforms, some I own, some they own, but 481 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: we're increasingly monetizing all of them, and so I always 482 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: kind of feel, simplistically, James, is I just I'm not 483 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 1: loyal to platforms where my audience goes. I have to 484 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: figure out a way to get my product to them, 485 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 1: and then we'll figure out over time how to make 486 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: money off it. And sometimes it takes a while, but 487 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: I when I walk up the street, go to the 488 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: grocery store or the car wash. You know, it's fascinating 489 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: to see where people get my content, and it's all 490 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: over on every platform. My sister watches Instagram and Facebook. 491 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: The boys in my life see me on YouTube, and 492 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: you know, it's just it's a different world. I try 493 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: to be nimble. I'm certainly not a business person, but 494 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: I do believe that the audience drives the direction of 495 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: which my career's gone. I no longer control it the audience. 496 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: Does or or does that seem too simplistic? No, I 497 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: think it's I think you and I talked about this 498 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. But it's also it brings 499 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: to mind the biggest cliche of all, which I think 500 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: we talked about back when you were at ESPN, which 501 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: is content is king, and so what you have to 502 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: what you're doing is you're concentrating on what your brand is, 503 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: what kinds of things you're interested in talking about showcasing, 504 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: and because you have your own type of content, how 505 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: it gets disseminated. I mean, yes, of course you have 506 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: you know, business arrangements and everything else, but that's almost 507 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: beside the point. The most important thing is, with all 508 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: these different options and delivery systems, what is the content 509 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 1: that you're putting out there? And how unique is it? 510 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: And how important is for you to remain that. Everybody 511 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: who talks about platforms first, I think, man, that's that's 512 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: that's a big bowl of wrong, because then you're backing 513 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 1: into things. It's just like and that's why you know. Look, 514 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: you saw your farmer boss Skipper, who's now starting this 515 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: new company, content company. I don't know if they've worked 516 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: out exactly where it's going to be, how it's going 517 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: to be, where it's going to be disseminated. He just 518 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: wants to be a storyteller again. And you know, and 519 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: and start with that, and everything else will be figured 520 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: out along the way. No, I can. I tell my 521 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: staff all the time, Let's just do three hours of 522 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: good content. Everything else will take care of itself. Just 523 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: do good content. If it's unique and thoughtful, will win eventually. 524 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: We may just not make money on it today, but 525 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: we'll win eventually. Um, all right, Jim Miller, Tinderbox HBO. 526 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: What can you tell us when it comes out? And 527 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: where are you in the process. I am it comes 528 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: out in September, Lord Willing, and I am under a 529 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: seventy foot wave. I am the last month of putting 530 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: a book to bed is like a ground war in 531 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: Southeast Asia, and tens of thousands of lives are lost. 532 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: So I'm just uh, you know, if you hear a 533 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: little horseness in my throat. Um. You know, it's a 534 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 1: it's a kind of a brutal time, but that's all right. Well, 535 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: you know, hopefully we'll be able to celebrate the fall. Well, 536 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 1: I'll be reading it and buying it and as I 537 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: always do, all your work, Jim, it's an absolute pleasure. 538 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: Thank you for taking time for us. Thank you so much, 539 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: and it's so great to see you healthy again. Man. 540 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: We were worried about you. Thanks man. Don't forget to 541 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:22,479 Speaker 1: follow us at the Volume Sports on Twitter and at 542 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: the Volume Sports on Instagram, rate review, and hit that 543 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: subscribe button wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks again, and 544 00:33:32,840 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: thanks again to Jim Miller The Volume