WEBVTT - Cops & Klan

0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:02.880
<v Speaker 1>Wo Zone media.

0:00:07.720 --> 0:00:10.480
<v Speaker 2>Before her children even knew their mother had been killed,

0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:14.280
<v Speaker 2>the federal government was already busy rewriting the story of

0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:18.640
<v Speaker 2>her death. She had lived a good life.

0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:20.400
<v Speaker 1>Though not a long one.

0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:23.919
<v Speaker 2>She was happily remarried after a divorce, and despite the

0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:27.240
<v Speaker 2>demands of motherhood, she went back to school in her thirties.

0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:31.960
<v Speaker 2>People who loved her described her as a Christian woman,

0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:38.320
<v Speaker 2>a devoted mother, and someone who believed passionately in loving everyone,

0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:41.000
<v Speaker 2>so much so that she put that belief into action.

0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:45.720
<v Speaker 2>And as the FBI commandeered the investigation into her death,

0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:49.319
<v Speaker 2>her grieving spouse was left trying to explain what had

0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:55.520
<v Speaker 2>happened to her children. Her youngest was just six years old.

0:00:56.960 --> 0:00:59.200
<v Speaker 2>She had both hands on the steering wheel when she was.

0:00:59.200 --> 0:00:59.840
<v Speaker 1>Shot in the head.

0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:03.360
<v Speaker 2>She was dead before her car came to a stop,

0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:06.320
<v Speaker 2>crashing not far from the spot where her killer had

0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:10.039
<v Speaker 2>fired at her. The person she was traveling with that

0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:15.360
<v Speaker 2>day was miraculously not hit. There should have been no

0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:19.080
<v Speaker 2>way to spin it. The investigation revealed the shooter and

0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:24.920
<v Speaker 2>his motive almost immediately, but federal officials seated doubt, planning

0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:28.160
<v Speaker 2>stories in the media that she was sexually immoral that

0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:31.080
<v Speaker 2>she neglected her children, that her spouse was a person

0:01:31.120 --> 0:01:36.680
<v Speaker 2>with questionable associates, she was an extremist, an outside agitator,

0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:40.080
<v Speaker 2>she had dangerous left wing politics, and she might even

0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:45.360
<v Speaker 2>be a communist. She was sick, degenerate, and she brought

0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:50.560
<v Speaker 2>this on herself. Of course, the FBI director spreading these

0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:54.040
<v Speaker 2>lies about her knew they weren't true. But in March

0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:58.040
<v Speaker 2>of nineteen sixty five, Jay Edgar Hoover was desperate to

0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:00.280
<v Speaker 2>distract from the fact that one of the clans man

0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:03.360
<v Speaker 2>who killed Viola the USO, was on his pay room.

0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:25.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm Molly Conger, and this is We're gude of guys.

0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:30.880
<v Speaker 2>This is not the story I promised you last week.

0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:37.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm so sorry. I'm sure you already guessed that. I know.

0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:40.200
<v Speaker 2>I ended last week's episode with a teaser for something

0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:43.639
<v Speaker 2>fairly specific, and I will write that episode.

0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:44.880
<v Speaker 1>I will.

0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:48.400
<v Speaker 2>It's poor form to complain about a job I do

0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:51.880
<v Speaker 2>in my pajamas, but it's not easy writing what is

0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:54.720
<v Speaker 2>essentially a twenty five page research paper on a new

0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:58.239
<v Speaker 2>topic every week. The only way it works is to

0:02:58.280 --> 0:02:59.040
<v Speaker 2>write about something.

0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:00.080
<v Speaker 1>I'm genuinely.

0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:03.520
<v Speaker 2>And I'm so lucky that I get to do that,

0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:08.440
<v Speaker 2>but my heart's got to be in it, and this

0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:15.919
<v Speaker 2>week my heart was troubled. I usually finished writing pretty

0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:19.359
<v Speaker 2>late on a Monday night Tuesday morning, if we're being

0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:23.880
<v Speaker 2>specific about it. My editor Rory really only gets about

0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:25.920
<v Speaker 2>a day and a half with the file to clean

0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:27.640
<v Speaker 2>it up, put the music in it, and bed the

0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:30.560
<v Speaker 2>audio clips and work whatever magic that he does that.

0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:31.880
<v Speaker 1>Makes it sound good.

0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:35.320
<v Speaker 2>And the edit I listened to on Wednesday afternoon is

0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:39.040
<v Speaker 2>the one you hear Thursday morning. It's a tight timeline,

0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:41.160
<v Speaker 2>so I really have to lock in on what I'm

0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:44.600
<v Speaker 2>going to research and write about pretty early in the week.

0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:47.480
<v Speaker 2>And obviously I knew what I was going to be

0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:50.400
<v Speaker 2>working on for this week's episode because it was a

0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:53.160
<v Speaker 2>continuation of the story from last week's.

0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:59.720
<v Speaker 3>Episode until it wasn't On Tuesdays, I've usually been up

0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:03.440
<v Speaker 3>most of the night, so I don't get a lot done.

0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:05.119
<v Speaker 2>I try to run all my errands for the week

0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:08.839
<v Speaker 2>on Wednesdays, but by Thursday I'm already starting to feel

0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:11.240
<v Speaker 2>like I'm running out of time and it's way too

0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:14.040
<v Speaker 2>late to change my plans. I've got to lock myself

0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:16.520
<v Speaker 2>in my office and focus on the topic I've chosen.

0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:20.559
<v Speaker 2>I was supposed to be writing about that Nazi serial killer.

0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:26.320
<v Speaker 2>I promised you, But this past week we all watched

0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:30.480
<v Speaker 2>a woman die on Wednesday, and I still ran my errands.

0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:34.240
<v Speaker 2>It's the only day I have time for it. But

0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:36.160
<v Speaker 2>I went about my business in kind of a daze,

0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:42.120
<v Speaker 2>and I wept for her, for her wife, for her children,

0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:44.320
<v Speaker 2>for all of us, for the world we have to

0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:47.760
<v Speaker 2>live in. But we all still had to get up

0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:50.640
<v Speaker 2>and go to work the next day. So on Thursday

0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:52.719
<v Speaker 2>and I sat at my computer and I kept taking

0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:58.240
<v Speaker 2>notes for the episode I was trying to write. On Friday,

0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:00.000
<v Speaker 2>more video of that murder came out.

0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:02.160
<v Speaker 1>I watched it.

0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:08.279
<v Speaker 2>Maybe you did too. If you didn't, you don't have to.

0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:12.000
<v Speaker 2>There's no moral requirement for you to bear witness in

0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:12.360
<v Speaker 2>that way.

0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:13.160
<v Speaker 1>I promise you.

0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:18.240
<v Speaker 2>But I did because I always do. And it hit

0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:22.360
<v Speaker 2>me pretty hard for the obvious reasons. Right, I was

0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:27.080
<v Speaker 2>watching a murder. I find myself doing that not infrequently

0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:30.440
<v Speaker 2>in this line of work, and it never gets easier,

0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:39.080
<v Speaker 2>and if it does, I'll quit. But something in particular

0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:44.400
<v Speaker 2>was stuck rattling around in my head. In the moments

0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:48.719
<v Speaker 2>before a federal agent shot and killed Renee Good, she

0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:54.080
<v Speaker 2>smiled at him, and she said, that's fine, dude, I'm.

0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:54.560
<v Speaker 1>Not mad at you.

0:05:56.800 --> 0:06:01.280
<v Speaker 2>That's a striking moment, even just on its own. She

0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:06.440
<v Speaker 2>really wasn't angry. You can see her face. She's brave,

0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:11.000
<v Speaker 2>she's determined, but she's telling the truth.

0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:13.240
<v Speaker 1>She isn't mad.

0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:21.520
<v Speaker 2>Her presence there wasn't out of anger but love. She

0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:26.200
<v Speaker 2>isn't mad at this particular man. She's doing her part

0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:31.160
<v Speaker 2>against an injustice that's bigger than either of them. This

0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:34.800
<v Speaker 2>isn't a show about current events. This isn't a show

0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:38.599
<v Speaker 2>about the news. This isn't an episode about Renee Good.

0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:41.560
<v Speaker 2>That's not what I write about, and that's not what

0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:45.520
<v Speaker 2>you're here to listen to. But it isn't my fault

0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:49.800
<v Speaker 2>that history rhymes. I wish it didn't. I wish the

0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:54.680
<v Speaker 2>decade I've spent writing about white supremacist violence wasn't increasingly

0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:56.960
<v Speaker 2>relevant in the way I think about current events.

0:06:58.839 --> 0:06:59.360
<v Speaker 1>But it is.

0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:05.240
<v Speaker 2>And when I watched that video, I didn't just see

0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:11.400
<v Speaker 2>Renee Good. I saw Viola Luzo. And when I heard

0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:14.560
<v Speaker 2>Renee Good speak her last words, I didn't just hear her.

0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:21.080
<v Speaker 2>I heard Michael Schwerner. Michael Schwerner, James Cheney, and Andrew

0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:23.880
<v Speaker 2>Goodman were field workers with the Congress of Racial Equality,

0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:27.240
<v Speaker 2>and on June twenty first, nineteen sixty four, they were

0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:30.440
<v Speaker 2>murdered by a mob of klansmen that included members of

0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:37.320
<v Speaker 2>the local sheriff's department. When Alton Wayne Roberts pulled Michael

0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:41.160
<v Speaker 2>Schwerner from his car, he asked him, are you that

0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:45.240
<v Speaker 2>N word lover? The two men were face to face,

0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:49.400
<v Speaker 2>just inches apart. The klansmen had both of his hands

0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:52.160
<v Speaker 2>on Schwerner's shoulders, having spun him around to look him

0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:56.320
<v Speaker 2>in the eye, and Schwerner, a twenty four year old

0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:59.600
<v Speaker 2>Jewish social worker from New York City, looked back at

0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:03.360
<v Speaker 2>that clan and he said, Sir, I know just how

0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:10.400
<v Speaker 2>you feel. He was calm, he wasn't angry. He was

0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:11.840
<v Speaker 2>trying to start a conversation.

0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:12.920
<v Speaker 1>I think.

0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:16.400
<v Speaker 2>I guess we can't really know what kind of dialogue

0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:18.200
<v Speaker 2>he was trying to have, because that's as far as

0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:22.040
<v Speaker 2>he got. The klansman still had one hand on one

0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:25.320
<v Speaker 2>of Schwerner's shoulders when he used his other hand to

0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:28.960
<v Speaker 2>draw his gun, and he shot Michael Schwerner point blank

0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:33.800
<v Speaker 2>in the chest, killing him instantly. And I thought, too

0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:36.840
<v Speaker 2>of Margaret Ann Nott, who was just sixteen years old

0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:41.480
<v Speaker 2>when she was killed in Butler, Alabama, in nineteen seventy one.

0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:44.040
<v Speaker 2>She was sitting on the ground with her eyes closed

0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:46.240
<v Speaker 2>in silent prayer when she was hit by the car

0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:49.440
<v Speaker 2>that rammed into the permitted protest she was participating in

0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:54.000
<v Speaker 2>that morning. As Margaret lay on the ground dying, she

0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:59.520
<v Speaker 2>repeated over and over again, I died for freedom.

0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:03.520
<v Speaker 1>I died for freedom.

0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:06.679
<v Speaker 2>And I thought too of Talisian non Kai Mech, who,

0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:08.800
<v Speaker 2>along with Ricky John Best, was one of two men

0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:11.120
<v Speaker 2>who died trying to protect two teenage girls on a

0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:15.520
<v Speaker 2>train in Portland in twenty seventeen. A Somali immigrant, a

0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:19.080
<v Speaker 2>young black Muslim girl wearing her hyjab, was being threatened,

0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:23.440
<v Speaker 2>and those strangers gave their lives to stop a neo

0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:29.160
<v Speaker 2>Nazi from hurting her. And after Tualisian was stabbed, as

0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:31.160
<v Speaker 2>he lay there bleeding out in the lap of a

0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:34.920
<v Speaker 2>stranger on the floor of the train, his last words were,

0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:44.240
<v Speaker 2>tell everyone on this train, I love them. I'm not

0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:49.440
<v Speaker 2>mad at you. I know just how you feel. I

0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:56.160
<v Speaker 2>died for freedom. Tell everyone on this train, I love them.

0:09:56.559 --> 0:10:00.240
<v Speaker 1>I'm not mad at you. I'm not mad at you.

0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:04.840
<v Speaker 1>I know just how you feel. I'm not mad at you.

0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:12.160
<v Speaker 2>Their words, all of them, the last words of people

0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:15.760
<v Speaker 2>killed by Nazis and klansmen and agents of the state

0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:18.920
<v Speaker 2>who served the same ends as those Nazis and those clansmen,

0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:23.440
<v Speaker 2>were drowning out my own thoughts. And I was reading

0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:25.959
<v Speaker 2>and writing and trying to do my silly little job,

0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:29.040
<v Speaker 2>trying to think my own thoughts. But I couldn't hear

0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:32.280
<v Speaker 2>my own thoughts over the sound of the blood pounding

0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:37.240
<v Speaker 2>in my head. And it sounded like Renee Good. It

0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:38.680
<v Speaker 2>sounded like Michael Schwerner.

0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:40.160
<v Speaker 3>It sounded like.

0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:44.440
<v Speaker 2>Delesian and Margaret and Ricky and Viola and Heather Higher

0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:48.079
<v Speaker 2>and so many people who woke up on a day

0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:51.920
<v Speaker 2>they didn't know as their last, and they did something brave,

0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:58.280
<v Speaker 2>not because they were angry or violent, but because they

0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:01.520
<v Speaker 2>loved the very idea of love so much.

0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:05.680
<v Speaker 1>And I didn't write a word that day.

0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:11.960
<v Speaker 2>On Saturday night, I was sitting in my office with

0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:14.240
<v Speaker 2>a book in my lap and thirty eight browser tabs

0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.120
<v Speaker 2>open on my computer, still trying to figure out how

0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:20.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to write six thousand words about anything this week.

0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:24.280
<v Speaker 2>And I saw a video of a vigil for Renee

0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:27.319
<v Speaker 2>Good held on a rainy Friday evening in New Hampshire.

0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:33.559
<v Speaker 2>Rob Hirschfeld, the Bishop of the Episcopal Church of New Hampshire,

0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:37.200
<v Speaker 2>must have spent the day hearing the same inescapable litany

0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:40.520
<v Speaker 2>of names that was pounding in my own head, because

0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:44.600
<v Speaker 2>he reminded the crowd in New Hampshire of Jonathan Daniels,

0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:47.280
<v Speaker 2>a New Hampshire native who died in a corner store

0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:50.560
<v Speaker 2>in a tiny town outside Montgomery, Alabama, in August of

0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:56.679
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty five. Daniels was a seminarian, still a year

0:11:56.720 --> 0:11:59.480
<v Speaker 2>away from finishing his studies before he could pursue ordination,

0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:03.120
<v Speaker 2>and he'd spent the spring semester of nineteen sixty five

0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:07.439
<v Speaker 2>working in Selma, Alabama. He returned to Alabama during his

0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:12.200
<v Speaker 2>summer break that year to register voters, tutor children, and

0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:16.320
<v Speaker 2>help black families get to church. He went back to

0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:19.120
<v Speaker 2>Alabama that summer to do what he felt God had

0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:24.600
<v Speaker 2>called him to. When the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee staged

0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:27.160
<v Speaker 2>a protest outside of a whites only department store in

0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:31.080
<v Speaker 2>Fort Deposit, Alabama. He was one of thirty protesters who

0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:35.560
<v Speaker 2>were arrested. After six days in jail. The whole group

0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:38.600
<v Speaker 2>was released, but they were left stranded in the middle

0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:42.760
<v Speaker 2>of nowhere. While they were waiting there for the ride

0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:46.240
<v Speaker 2>back to town, the group decided to send a small delegation

0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:50.960
<v Speaker 2>to a nearby corner store to buy some cold sodas

0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:54.480
<v Speaker 2>they'd all spent six days sweating in an Alabama jail

0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:56.040
<v Speaker 2>and this was one of the only stores in the

0:12:56.080 --> 0:13:00.880
<v Speaker 2>area that would serve black customers. Jonathan Daniels and father

0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:03.600
<v Speaker 2>Richard Morris Row walked to the store with Joyce Bailey

0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:08.200
<v Speaker 2>and Ruby Sales, two black teenage girls, both activists with

0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:14.320
<v Speaker 2>the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. Ruby Sales, just seventeen years

0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:20.040
<v Speaker 2>old that summer, reached the door first. She recalled that

0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:23.480
<v Speaker 2>afternoon in an interview for a PBS documentary two decades later.

0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:31.360
<v Speaker 4>And so when we got to the store, as we

0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:37.240
<v Speaker 4>approached a store and began to go up the steps,

0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:43.960
<v Speaker 4>suddenly standing there was Tom Coleman that at that time

0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:46.600
<v Speaker 4>I didn't know his name. I found that out later,

0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:51.880
<v Speaker 4>and I recognized that he had a shotgun, and I

0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:56.720
<v Speaker 4>recognized that he was yelling something about black bitches. But

0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:00.960
<v Speaker 4>in some real ways, with that confrontation, my mind kind

0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:05.520
<v Speaker 4>of blinked, and I wasn't processing all that was happening.

0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:08.760
<v Speaker 4>And so as I was trying to process the meaning

0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:12.560
<v Speaker 4>of this, suddenly I fell a tug because I was

0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:16.640
<v Speaker 4>in front and Jonathan was behind me, and I fell

0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:19.440
<v Speaker 4>a tug and someone and the next thing I knew,

0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:24.160
<v Speaker 4>there was this blast and I had fallen down, and

0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:28.840
<v Speaker 4>I remember thinking, God, this is what it feels like

0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:33.800
<v Speaker 4>to be dead. I thought I was dead, And just

0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:37.440
<v Speaker 4>as I was trying to sort of deal with being dead,

0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:41.280
<v Speaker 4>I heard another shot go off.

0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:45.920
<v Speaker 1>But she wasn't dead.

0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:49.800
<v Speaker 2>The shot Ruby heard as she was lying on the

0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:53.960
<v Speaker 2>ground contemplating her own apparent death was meant for Joyce,

0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:58.280
<v Speaker 2>but Father Morris Row had wrapped himself around her as

0:14:58.280 --> 0:14:59.040
<v Speaker 2>he turned to run.

0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:02.200
<v Speaker 1>Only Joyce got away.

0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:07.000
<v Speaker 2>The priest was shot in the back, leaving him unable

0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:11.440
<v Speaker 2>to walk for several years. The first blast from the

0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:17.120
<v Speaker 2>deputy's shotgun, the one aimed straight at Ruby, hadn't touched her.

0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:20.720
<v Speaker 2>The tug, she felt. The force that knocked her to

0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:24.200
<v Speaker 2>the ground, where she now lay covered in blood, had

0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:28.040
<v Speaker 2>been Jonathan Daniels pushing her out of the way, and

0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:33.640
<v Speaker 2>the blood pooling around her was his. He'd taken the

0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:37.640
<v Speaker 2>full force of the shotgun blast point blank, killing him instantly.

0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:42.320
<v Speaker 2>In the video of that rainy vigil in New Hampshire,

0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:46.960
<v Speaker 2>Bishop Hirschfeld shared the story of Jonathan Daniel's death to

0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:52.960
<v Speaker 2>make it inescapably clear how serious he was as a

0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:56.480
<v Speaker 2>man of the cloth. Thoughts and prayers are sort of

0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:59.960
<v Speaker 2>his stock in trade. At a vigil like that one,

0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.440
<v Speaker 2>that's all anyone really expects of him. His thoughts and

0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:07.560
<v Speaker 2>his prayers, that's all anyone really has to offer after

0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:12.800
<v Speaker 2>a tragedy. But the Bishop opened his remarks by wondering

0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:18.840
<v Speaker 2>whether the time for eloquent words had passed. Thoughts and

0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:24.560
<v Speaker 2>prayers are beautiful, but they aren't moving the needle. Jonathan

0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:27.360
<v Speaker 2>Daniels didn't fight for civil rights with a strongly worded

0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:30.200
<v Speaker 2>letter or a signature on a petition, or a beautiful

0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:34.120
<v Speaker 2>sermon from the pulpit. He pressed his body into the

0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:35.320
<v Speaker 2>barrel of a shotgun.

0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:42.760
<v Speaker 5>I have told the clergy of the Episcopal Dioceis of

0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:49.440
<v Speaker 5>New Hampshire that we may be entering into that same witness,

0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:54.600
<v Speaker 5>and I've asked them to get their affairs in order.

0:16:56.240 --> 0:17:01.240
<v Speaker 6>To make sure they have their wills written, because it

0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:05.320
<v Speaker 6>may be that now is no longer the time for statements,

0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:12.600
<v Speaker 6>but for us, with our bodies, to stand between the

0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:16.639
<v Speaker 6>powers of this world and the most vulnerable.

0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:26.040
<v Speaker 2>I watched that video on Saturday night, and I thought

0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:27.840
<v Speaker 2>about what it means to live in a world where

0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:31.000
<v Speaker 2>his words are frightening and comforting to me an equal measure.

0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:35.280
<v Speaker 2>I hope the clergy of the Episcopal Diocese of New

0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:39.400
<v Speaker 2>Hampshire don't die the way Jonathan Daniels died. But more

0:17:39.400 --> 0:17:41.560
<v Speaker 2>than that, I wish we did not live in a

0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:43.600
<v Speaker 2>world where a shotgun is pointed.

0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:46.520
<v Speaker 1>At a child. But we do, and they might.

0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:49.280
<v Speaker 2>And while we try to untangle the factors that led

0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:51.760
<v Speaker 2>to the loaded gun aimed the most vulnerable among us,

0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:55.280
<v Speaker 2>maybe the best we can hope for is the courage

0:17:55.320 --> 0:18:00.359
<v Speaker 2>to absorb some of that pain. I woke up Sday

0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:02.160
<v Speaker 2>morning and the first thing I saw on my phone

0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:04.600
<v Speaker 2>was the news that a synagogue in Mississippi had burned.

0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:10.359
<v Speaker 2>Terrible news, the kind of news I will definitely follow

0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:14.239
<v Speaker 2>up on eventually. Whoever would do something like that as

0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:16.960
<v Speaker 2>almost certainly the kind of guy I write about or

0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:17.640
<v Speaker 2>will one day.

0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:20.560
<v Speaker 1>I wasn't quite.

0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:25.439
<v Speaker 2>Awake yet, but I recognized the name of the synagogue. Impossible. Really,

0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:29.399
<v Speaker 2>I'm not Jewish, and I've never been to Mississippi, but

0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:33.080
<v Speaker 2>beth Is Reel Congregation and Jackson, Mississippi, sounded so familiar

0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:36.800
<v Speaker 2>because it was bombed by the Klan in nineteen sixty seven.

0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:40.560
<v Speaker 2>Everything old is new again. There's nothing new.

0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:41.160
<v Speaker 1>Under the sun.

0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:43.479
<v Speaker 2>And I was running out of time to write something

0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:46.520
<v Speaker 2>for this week's episode, and it felt like history was

0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:51.480
<v Speaker 2>demanding to be acknowledged. I stared at my computer for

0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:55.240
<v Speaker 2>a while, and on Sunday afternoon, I went to a

0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:59.160
<v Speaker 2>vigil for Renee Good. It was held in a little

0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:04.120
<v Speaker 2>park downtown. Hundreds of people filled the park, spilling out

0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:10.120
<v Speaker 2>onto the sidewalks. I saw friends and neighbors and strangers,

0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:15.360
<v Speaker 2>babies and strollers and old women pushing walkers. I saw

0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:17.879
<v Speaker 2>the pastor of a church in my neighborhood wearing a

0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:21.840
<v Speaker 2>rainbow scarf and a warm smile. I saw the man

0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:25.240
<v Speaker 2>running to be my congressman, standing quietly in the crowd,

0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:32.720
<v Speaker 2>not campaigning, just present. People had homemade signs. Some of

0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:36.160
<v Speaker 2>them were impressive works of art, and others were hastily

0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:40.359
<v Speaker 2>repurposed from the last protest. I saw a child wearing

0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:44.560
<v Speaker 2>a cardboard box painted white. It was a little ice

0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:49.639
<v Speaker 2>cube costume with third graders against ice scrawled on the

0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:53.440
<v Speaker 2>back in pink marker. And I saw an older woman

0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:57.600
<v Speaker 2>carrying a single sheet of plain printer paper with a

0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:01.480
<v Speaker 2>phrase written on it in a black marker. It said,

0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:08.400
<v Speaker 2>you can't kill us all. That's what one of Renee's

0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:11.440
<v Speaker 2>neighbors shouted at the ice agents, trying to chase off

0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:13.520
<v Speaker 2>the crowd that gathered at the scene after she was

0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:17.680
<v Speaker 2>shot and killed. Instead of running away from the sound

0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:23.000
<v Speaker 2>of gunfire, a crowd formed, bearing witness and demanding justice.

0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:28.080
<v Speaker 2>Before her body was even cold. They had just witnessed

0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:34.200
<v Speaker 2>an execution, and their answer was you can't kill us All.

0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:41.960
<v Speaker 2>Those words spoken by an ordinary person in an extraordinary circumstance,

0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:45.480
<v Speaker 2>traveled halfway across the country to be there on that sign,

0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:50.720
<v Speaker 2>a sign carried by another entirely ordinary person, an ordinary

0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:55.520
<v Speaker 2>person who recognizes that she too, now finds herself in

0:20:55.560 --> 0:21:02.040
<v Speaker 2>an extraordinary circumstance. Normally I make careful notes of what

0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:07.240
<v Speaker 2>was said and who spoke. But I just paced, walking

0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:10.000
<v Speaker 2>laps around that two hundred square foot patch of grass,

0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:12.800
<v Speaker 2>feeling like the weight of history would crush us all.

0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:18.680
<v Speaker 2>Walking home afterwards, I knew I wouldn't write another word

0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:23.240
<v Speaker 2>that day. I don't have to walk down Fourth Street

0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:27.920
<v Speaker 2>to get home, but I always do. It's been almost

0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:30.359
<v Speaker 2>nine years since a woman I never met was killed there.

0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:34.239
<v Speaker 2>There's a purple bow tied around the post holding up

0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:37.280
<v Speaker 2>a no parking sign. Closest to the spot where she died.

0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:41.560
<v Speaker 2>The brick wall of the neighboring office building is covered

0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:46.119
<v Speaker 2>in chalk messages. I guess it's mostly sheltered from the

0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:51.520
<v Speaker 2>rain somehow, because it isn't derotating changing set of messages.

0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:55.159
<v Speaker 2>It's a monument. Maybe it's never rained at an angle

0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:59.119
<v Speaker 2>in that narrow street. I don't understand it. There are

0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:01.439
<v Speaker 2>thousands of little men messages scrawled on the walls on

0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:05.720
<v Speaker 2>either side of Fourth Street, but the biggest one reads.

0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:10.280
<v Speaker 1>Gone but not forgotten. And I know that.

0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:12.240
<v Speaker 2>One's been untouched for at least eight years.

0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:14.560
<v Speaker 1>Maybe it's older than that.

0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:18.200
<v Speaker 2>But the first time I remember seeing it was when

0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:22.320
<v Speaker 2>I stopped by on her birthday, May twenty ninth, twenty eighteen.

0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:27.760
<v Speaker 2>Heather Hier would have been thirty three that day if

0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:43.439
<v Speaker 2>she hadn't been dead for a year. So after the

0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:46.400
<v Speaker 2>vigil for Renee Good, I stopped on the street where

0:22:46.400 --> 0:22:49.119
<v Speaker 2>Heather Higher was killed, and I stood in the street

0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:51.440
<v Speaker 2>where she died with tears in my eyes.

0:22:51.680 --> 0:22:52.520
<v Speaker 1>Until a car came.

0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:55.760
<v Speaker 2>And then I remembered that we all still have to

0:22:55.800 --> 0:23:01.159
<v Speaker 2>live in the world and go about our business. So

0:23:01.200 --> 0:23:03.760
<v Speaker 2>what I mean to say is, as I'm writing this,

0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:09.240
<v Speaker 2>it's Monday. I do most of my writing on Mondays.

0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:13.080
<v Speaker 2>It's a bad habit, but usually when I'm writing on Monday,

0:23:13.600 --> 0:23:16.119
<v Speaker 2>I've spent all week researching and taking notes, and I

0:23:16.320 --> 0:23:18.240
<v Speaker 2>kind of have an idea what the words will be.

0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:23.520
<v Speaker 2>But I woke up this morning and I started over.

0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:27.560
<v Speaker 2>Because every time I sat down to research and take

0:23:27.640 --> 0:23:30.080
<v Speaker 2>notes and plot out the story I was supposed to

0:23:30.080 --> 0:23:35.399
<v Speaker 2>write this week, I cried. I cried for Renee and

0:23:35.480 --> 0:23:38.479
<v Speaker 2>for Heather, and for Michael Schwerner and James Cheney and

0:23:38.480 --> 0:23:41.680
<v Speaker 2>Andrew Goodman and Mayola Luso and Talisian and Ricky and

0:23:41.720 --> 0:23:44.520
<v Speaker 2>Margaret and Jonathan, and for all the martyrs of the

0:23:44.520 --> 0:23:47.920
<v Speaker 2>struggle for freedom whose stories we don't know, not yet.

0:23:49.560 --> 0:23:51.879
<v Speaker 2>I couldn't write a regular episode of my show because

0:23:51.920 --> 0:23:57.159
<v Speaker 2>my heart demanded something else. I know this isn't a

0:23:57.200 --> 0:24:02.639
<v Speaker 2>serious job. I make an entertainment product. I'm a journalist

0:24:02.640 --> 0:24:05.280
<v Speaker 2>and a researcher, and I take my work very seriously.

0:24:06.680 --> 0:24:10.720
<v Speaker 2>But I'm not delusional. This is a podcast. It's in

0:24:10.760 --> 0:24:13.360
<v Speaker 2>your ear on your way to work, while you wash dishes,

0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:19.080
<v Speaker 2>walk your dog. But if I didn't believe just a

0:24:19.119 --> 0:24:23.520
<v Speaker 2>little bit this was important, I would have given up

0:24:23.560 --> 0:24:26.879
<v Speaker 2>by now. I wouldn't work this hard to write these

0:24:26.920 --> 0:24:30.080
<v Speaker 2>stories if I didn't think there was some value in

0:24:30.240 --> 0:24:34.240
<v Speaker 2>understanding the history of writing political violence, in fitting those

0:24:34.280 --> 0:24:37.959
<v Speaker 2>pieces together to show the connections between these allegedly isolated,

0:24:38.040 --> 0:24:42.920
<v Speaker 2>random acts of violence. As bewildering and terrifying and overwhelming

0:24:42.920 --> 0:24:46.000
<v Speaker 2>as things seem right now, I want to help you

0:24:46.040 --> 0:24:49.080
<v Speaker 2>see that these are not unprecedented times.

0:24:50.320 --> 0:24:52.320
<v Speaker 1>They are, in fact, very.

0:24:52.200 --> 0:24:58.200
<v Speaker 2>Precedented, and the precedents are pretty dark, but there are

0:24:58.200 --> 0:25:02.359
<v Speaker 2>things we can learn from the past, and there's comfort

0:25:02.440 --> 0:25:04.560
<v Speaker 2>in knowing we aren't the first ones to walk into

0:25:04.560 --> 0:25:09.520
<v Speaker 2>this darkness. So I didn't write the story I promised

0:25:09.520 --> 0:25:12.399
<v Speaker 2>you last week. And I can't tell you anything you

0:25:12.440 --> 0:25:16.280
<v Speaker 2>don't already know about what's in the news today. But

0:25:16.359 --> 0:25:19.760
<v Speaker 2>I can tell you a little bit about a story

0:25:19.760 --> 0:25:23.600
<v Speaker 2>that rhymes. I can tell you about the day Viola

0:25:23.640 --> 0:25:30.119
<v Speaker 2>le Uso died. On March twenty fifth, nineteen sixty five,

0:25:30.880 --> 0:25:35.400
<v Speaker 2>marchers poured into Montgomery, Alabama. The front of the march

0:25:35.440 --> 0:25:38.359
<v Speaker 2>reached the capitol steps around noon, but the crowd of

0:25:38.400 --> 0:25:41.800
<v Speaker 2>more than twenty five thousand stretched out over two miles long,

0:25:42.560 --> 0:25:44.520
<v Speaker 2>and the end of the march didn't arrive until more

0:25:44.560 --> 0:25:48.880
<v Speaker 2>than an hour later. A program from the event lists

0:25:48.920 --> 0:25:52.119
<v Speaker 2>more than a dozen speakers. There were speakers from the

0:25:52.160 --> 0:25:57.160
<v Speaker 2>Southern Christian Leadership Conference, the Congress for Racial Equality, the NAACP.

0:25:58.200 --> 0:26:01.879
<v Speaker 2>John Lewis spoke on behalf of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee.

0:26:02.800 --> 0:26:05.440
<v Speaker 2>Nobel Peace Prize winner and New and Under Secretary General

0:26:05.520 --> 0:26:11.639
<v Speaker 2>Ralph Bunch gave a speech. A Philip Randolph spoke the

0:26:11.720 --> 0:26:15.639
<v Speaker 2>march from Selma to Montgomery had been hard fought. It

0:26:15.680 --> 0:26:20.359
<v Speaker 2>took nineteen days to cross those fifty four miles. On

0:26:20.440 --> 0:26:22.800
<v Speaker 2>the first attempt, the march didn't even make it out

0:26:22.800 --> 0:26:26.760
<v Speaker 2>of Selma. It ended the very day it began, a

0:26:26.840 --> 0:26:30.919
<v Speaker 2>day that quickly became known as Bloody Sunday. Dozens of

0:26:30.960 --> 0:26:34.880
<v Speaker 2>marchers were injured and seventeen were hospitalized after brutal beatings

0:26:34.880 --> 0:26:36.840
<v Speaker 2>from the police waiting for them on the other side

0:26:36.880 --> 0:26:41.320
<v Speaker 2>of the Edmund Pettis Bridge. The second attempt was quickly

0:26:41.359 --> 0:26:45.199
<v Speaker 2>foiled by a court injunction. Hours after the march was

0:26:45.240 --> 0:26:49.040
<v Speaker 2>called off, a white mob attacked three Unitarian ministers who

0:26:49.040 --> 0:26:52.920
<v Speaker 2>were in town for the march. James Reeb died from

0:26:52.960 --> 0:26:57.560
<v Speaker 2>his injuries. By the time the march to Montgomery started

0:26:57.600 --> 0:27:02.160
<v Speaker 2>for the third time, the stakes were clear. A minister

0:27:02.280 --> 0:27:06.080
<v Speaker 2>had been beaten to death. The chairman of the Student

0:27:06.119 --> 0:27:08.440
<v Speaker 2>on Violent Coordinating Committee had been struck over the head

0:27:08.440 --> 0:27:13.359
<v Speaker 2>with a billy club, fracturing a skull. They'd been beaten

0:27:13.480 --> 0:27:17.919
<v Speaker 2>and tearcass and run down with horses and dogs. They

0:27:18.000 --> 0:27:22.480
<v Speaker 2>knew they would face violence, they understood they may face death.

0:27:24.320 --> 0:27:27.560
<v Speaker 2>And when they finally reached Montgomery, the main event that

0:27:27.640 --> 0:27:29.760
<v Speaker 2>afternoon was a speech from doctor Martin.

0:27:29.560 --> 0:27:34.760
<v Speaker 1>Luther King Junior. You may not know this one, at

0:27:34.840 --> 0:27:35.800
<v Speaker 1>least not as well as you know.

0:27:35.880 --> 0:27:38.240
<v Speaker 2>Famous speech is like I have a dream from the

0:27:38.280 --> 0:27:41.560
<v Speaker 2>march on Washington, or I've been to the mountaintop from

0:27:41.600 --> 0:27:45.840
<v Speaker 2>the Memphis sanitation worker strike. But I think you know

0:27:45.920 --> 0:27:48.120
<v Speaker 2>one of the final lines of this speech.

0:27:51.080 --> 0:27:56.399
<v Speaker 7>I contemplated this afternoon. I have a difficult moment. I

0:27:56.480 --> 0:28:01.800
<v Speaker 7>have a substrate in Vialla it will not be, because

0:28:01.920 --> 0:28:08.320
<v Speaker 7>truth pressures will rise again. A long not long it

0:28:08.480 --> 0:28:14.440
<v Speaker 7>cause no lie can near frail. A long not law alone.

0:28:14.720 --> 0:28:20.840
<v Speaker 7>It calls you shall read what your soul A long

0:28:21.760 --> 0:28:25.200
<v Speaker 7>way on the scaffold, long way up on the thing

0:28:25.520 --> 0:28:29.320
<v Speaker 7>that's just that scaffold, sway the future behind the dim

0:28:29.359 --> 0:28:33.480
<v Speaker 7>unknown standard, God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own.

0:28:33.840 --> 0:28:38.400
<v Speaker 4>A long not law of the moral.

0:28:38.240 --> 0:28:41.880
<v Speaker 7>Universe is long, but it ben towards the outside.

0:28:46.280 --> 0:28:49.480
<v Speaker 2>The art of the moral universe is long, but it

0:28:49.520 --> 0:28:54.520
<v Speaker 2>bends towards justice. That's one of doctor King's more famous lines.

0:28:56.080 --> 0:28:58.400
<v Speaker 2>And I think there's a reason I've only ever heard

0:28:58.400 --> 0:29:01.840
<v Speaker 2>it out of context. Why I never really thought about

0:29:01.840 --> 0:29:04.920
<v Speaker 2>it having been spoken on the afternoon of March twenty fifth,

0:29:05.000 --> 0:29:08.120
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty five, from the steps of the Capitol Building

0:29:08.160 --> 0:29:11.880
<v Speaker 2>in Montgomery, Alabama, flanked on either side by civil rights

0:29:11.880 --> 0:29:17.360
<v Speaker 2>activists with fresh bruises on their faces. When you neatly

0:29:17.400 --> 0:29:19.720
<v Speaker 2>cut around those words and you lift them out of

0:29:19.760 --> 0:29:23.320
<v Speaker 2>that speech, carving away the context of the bloody fifty

0:29:23.360 --> 0:29:27.720
<v Speaker 2>four miles between Selma and Montgomery, you might think moral

0:29:27.840 --> 0:29:31.280
<v Speaker 2>arcs just spend that way, that the natural shape of

0:29:31.360 --> 0:29:33.920
<v Speaker 2>such an ark just tends to angle in the direction

0:29:34.000 --> 0:29:38.200
<v Speaker 2>of justice, that if you wait patiently, that gentle curve

0:29:38.280 --> 0:29:41.959
<v Speaker 2>will end, and there at its tip will be justice.

0:29:43.760 --> 0:29:46.920
<v Speaker 2>But the moral arc of the universe doesn't bent.

0:29:48.400 --> 0:29:49.040
<v Speaker 1>It is bent.

0:29:50.560 --> 0:29:55.040
<v Speaker 2>It is pushed and pled and molded and hammered and kneaded,

0:29:55.040 --> 0:29:56.680
<v Speaker 2>and it disgreased with our blood.

0:29:58.400 --> 0:29:59.200
<v Speaker 1>It doesn't bent.

0:30:00.600 --> 0:30:04.080
<v Speaker 2>We have to bend it. It is not enough to

0:30:04.200 --> 0:30:07.680
<v Speaker 2>observe its shape. You have to throw your body against it.

0:30:09.080 --> 0:30:11.320
<v Speaker 2>You have to look back at that long arc and

0:30:11.400 --> 0:30:15.120
<v Speaker 2>remember who toiled and struggled and cried and bled before you.

0:30:16.440 --> 0:30:19.240
<v Speaker 2>That arc bends because you were not the first person

0:30:19.360 --> 0:30:22.520
<v Speaker 2>who wished that it did, because we are not the

0:30:22.560 --> 0:30:27.600
<v Speaker 2>first generation to put our shoulder to it and push.

0:30:27.840 --> 0:30:29.120
<v Speaker 1>Viola Luzo knew that.

0:30:30.920 --> 0:30:34.840
<v Speaker 2>She was there that afternoon in Montgomery. She heard doctor

0:30:34.920 --> 0:30:43.240
<v Speaker 2>King give that speech just a few hours before she died. Now,

0:30:43.840 --> 0:30:46.160
<v Speaker 2>normally I would have at least skimmed most of the

0:30:46.200 --> 0:30:48.800
<v Speaker 2>biographies that have been written about her. There are a

0:30:48.840 --> 0:30:51.680
<v Speaker 2>couple books about her life, and I would try to

0:30:51.680 --> 0:30:54.200
<v Speaker 2>sort of suss out the angle that each of the

0:30:54.240 --> 0:30:57.240
<v Speaker 2>authors was approaching the story with and cross reference the

0:30:57.240 --> 0:31:00.560
<v Speaker 2>details that didn't quite match with newspaper articles and interviews

0:31:00.560 --> 0:31:05.080
<v Speaker 2>with people who were there. That's my normal approach. Normally

0:31:05.440 --> 0:31:09.040
<v Speaker 2>I work on an episode all week. As I said,

0:31:09.480 --> 0:31:14.000
<v Speaker 2>I started this morning, so he didn't quite have time

0:31:14.080 --> 0:31:17.880
<v Speaker 2>for the normal process. So forgive me if her life

0:31:17.920 --> 0:31:21.560
<v Speaker 2>story is a little lighter on the details. What I

0:31:21.600 --> 0:31:24.080
<v Speaker 2>did read, though, was the chapter on Viola written in

0:31:24.080 --> 0:31:27.640
<v Speaker 2>a book by Reverend Jack Mendelssohn. He published a book

0:31:27.680 --> 0:31:30.600
<v Speaker 2>of stories about civil rights martyrs in nineteen sixty six,

0:31:31.640 --> 0:31:34.040
<v Speaker 2>so the interviews he had with people who knew Viola

0:31:34.080 --> 0:31:37.080
<v Speaker 2>were fresh. He was writing this just a few months

0:31:37.120 --> 0:31:41.640
<v Speaker 2>after she died, And of course I also read Jay

0:31:41.760 --> 0:31:45.200
<v Speaker 2>Edgar Hoover's frantic and furious memos as he cooked up

0:31:45.240 --> 0:31:50.480
<v Speaker 2>his smear campaign against this dead mother. Yola was born

0:31:50.520 --> 0:31:53.760
<v Speaker 2>in Pennsylvania nineteen twenty five, the daughter of a school

0:31:53.760 --> 0:31:56.960
<v Speaker 2>teacher and a coal miner. Her father lost a hand

0:31:56.960 --> 0:31:59.560
<v Speaker 2>in a mining accident during the Great Depression, so the

0:31:59.600 --> 0:32:02.720
<v Speaker 2>family relied on income from short term teaching positions. Her

0:32:02.720 --> 0:32:06.520
<v Speaker 2>mother took anywhere she could find them. They moved often,

0:32:07.080 --> 0:32:09.160
<v Speaker 2>but Viola spent much of her childhood in the South.

0:32:10.760 --> 0:32:13.560
<v Speaker 2>At eighteen, she married a much older man, her boss

0:32:13.560 --> 0:32:17.280
<v Speaker 2>at the restaurant where she worked. When they divorced six

0:32:17.360 --> 0:32:21.840
<v Speaker 2>years later, she kept custody of their two daughters. In

0:32:21.920 --> 0:32:25.760
<v Speaker 2>nineteen fifty one, she married Anthony Luzo, a business agent

0:32:25.840 --> 0:32:29.160
<v Speaker 2>for Teamsters Local two forty seven, and the couple had

0:32:29.160 --> 0:32:34.600
<v Speaker 2>three more children together. After she died, those who wanted

0:32:34.640 --> 0:32:38.160
<v Speaker 2>to minimize her death would say that she was mentally ill,

0:32:39.600 --> 0:32:42.280
<v Speaker 2>she had a criminal record, she was a bad mother,

0:32:43.120 --> 0:32:46.240
<v Speaker 2>she was crazy, and her interest in civil rights was

0:32:46.280 --> 0:32:49.440
<v Speaker 2>a recent flight of fancy, perhaps a symptom of her

0:32:49.520 --> 0:32:54.520
<v Speaker 2>erratic mind. Now, I would argue that even someone with

0:32:54.560 --> 0:32:57.600
<v Speaker 2>a criminal record and a mental illness can have a

0:32:57.640 --> 0:33:00.560
<v Speaker 2>firmly held belief in the value of civil rights and

0:33:00.640 --> 0:33:03.520
<v Speaker 2>make their own decision to participate in a political protest,

0:33:03.600 --> 0:33:07.280
<v Speaker 2>and either way it certainly isn't a reason to kill them.

0:33:08.920 --> 0:33:12.040
<v Speaker 2>But in Viola's case, I think the people repeating those

0:33:12.080 --> 0:33:15.520
<v Speaker 2>things are being unfair on purpose. I think they know

0:33:15.560 --> 0:33:22.760
<v Speaker 2>they're lying. Now, it is kind of true that she

0:33:22.800 --> 0:33:26.520
<v Speaker 2>had a criminal record. She'd been cited for failing to

0:33:26.520 --> 0:33:31.040
<v Speaker 2>send three of her children to school. In nineteen sixty four,

0:33:31.320 --> 0:33:33.920
<v Speaker 2>she kept them home for forty days to protest a

0:33:33.960 --> 0:33:36.880
<v Speaker 2>school policy that allowed teenagers to drop out of school.

0:33:36.880 --> 0:33:42.400
<v Speaker 2>Without parental permission. I don't fully understand the logic of

0:33:42.440 --> 0:33:46.920
<v Speaker 2>the protest, but the cause makes perfect sense. She told

0:33:46.920 --> 0:33:49.600
<v Speaker 2>the Detroit Board of Education that she regretted leaving school

0:33:49.600 --> 0:33:52.280
<v Speaker 2>at fourteen, and she wished the law had kept her

0:33:52.280 --> 0:33:56.160
<v Speaker 2>in school. She believed that requiring children to stay in

0:33:56.200 --> 0:34:02.280
<v Speaker 2>school until eighteen would protect them from being exploded. She

0:34:02.400 --> 0:34:05.280
<v Speaker 2>was charged with violating the state school compulsory age law,

0:34:05.960 --> 0:34:10.240
<v Speaker 2>the one she was protesting. Years later, her daughter Penny

0:34:10.239 --> 0:34:14.480
<v Speaker 2>explained to author Mary Stanton that it wasn't some hysterical,

0:34:14.680 --> 0:34:20.600
<v Speaker 2>unreasonable thing. It was a carefully considered, active protest. She

0:34:20.760 --> 0:34:23.759
<v Speaker 2>was trying to get publicity and draw attention to what

0:34:23.800 --> 0:34:26.680
<v Speaker 2>she thought was a dangerous law that would hurt children.

0:34:28.840 --> 0:34:31.120
<v Speaker 2>A few weeks after her arrest in June of nineteen

0:34:31.160 --> 0:34:34.719
<v Speaker 2>sixty four, maybe in an effort to just blow off

0:34:34.760 --> 0:34:38.080
<v Speaker 2>some steam, she took off on an impromptu road trip

0:34:38.120 --> 0:34:43.840
<v Speaker 2>without telling her husband. This, coupled with the arrest, provided

0:34:43.880 --> 0:34:47.440
<v Speaker 2>the pieces for the narrative that she was irrational and

0:34:47.560 --> 0:34:52.280
<v Speaker 2>mentally disturbed. Newspapers seized on this line from an FBI

0:34:52.400 --> 0:34:55.640
<v Speaker 2>memo about how she disappeared to Canada and her husband

0:34:55.640 --> 0:34:59.200
<v Speaker 2>had to report her missing, but they lived in Michigan.

0:35:00.160 --> 0:35:05.440
<v Speaker 2>Canada is just kind of the next town over. It

0:35:05.480 --> 0:35:08.440
<v Speaker 2>does appear that her interest in civil rights came on suddenly.

0:35:09.480 --> 0:35:13.279
<v Speaker 2>She never brought it up before nineteen sixty four. But

0:35:13.440 --> 0:35:15.839
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty four was as good a time as any

0:35:15.880 --> 0:35:18.200
<v Speaker 2>for a housewife in Detroit to become interested in the

0:35:18.200 --> 0:35:21.759
<v Speaker 2>civil rights movement. She didn't just wake up one day

0:35:21.760 --> 0:35:24.920
<v Speaker 2>and drive to Selma. She had been involved in the

0:35:24.960 --> 0:35:28.120
<v Speaker 2>Detroit chapter of the NAACP for a year leading up

0:35:28.160 --> 0:35:31.640
<v Speaker 2>to her death. Honestly, I think it might be more

0:35:31.760 --> 0:35:34.600
<v Speaker 2>unusual for a white housewife in Michigan to be outspoken

0:35:34.600 --> 0:35:37.000
<v Speaker 2>about segregation earlier than this.

0:35:38.360 --> 0:35:39.719
<v Speaker 1>It makes perfect sense that she.

0:35:39.640 --> 0:35:42.960
<v Speaker 2>Would develop an interest in the civil rights movement at

0:35:43.000 --> 0:35:47.280
<v Speaker 2>the height of the civil rights movement. I don't understand

0:35:47.280 --> 0:35:51.520
<v Speaker 2>why this is meant to be suspicious. It was bloody

0:35:51.520 --> 0:35:55.880
<v Speaker 2>Sunday that finally spurred her to greater action. She was

0:35:55.920 --> 0:35:58.840
<v Speaker 2>active locally, but the footage of the violence on the

0:35:58.920 --> 0:36:02.360
<v Speaker 2>Edmund Pettis Bridge and March of nineteen sixty five was

0:36:02.400 --> 0:36:06.680
<v Speaker 2>too much. Her husband recalls the tears streaming down her

0:36:06.680 --> 0:36:10.319
<v Speaker 2>face when she saw it on the evening news. When

0:36:10.360 --> 0:36:13.120
<v Speaker 2>James Ree was murdered a few days later. She attended

0:36:13.120 --> 0:36:15.879
<v Speaker 2>a memorial service for him at her local Unitarian church.

0:36:17.560 --> 0:36:20.320
<v Speaker 2>Later that week, she marched with a few hundred students

0:36:20.320 --> 0:36:23.440
<v Speaker 2>from Wayne State University to show their solidarity with the

0:36:23.440 --> 0:36:28.800
<v Speaker 2>marchers in Selma. At that rally, she heard several students

0:36:28.800 --> 0:36:33.080
<v Speaker 2>who'd been down in Selma speak about their experiences. They

0:36:33.160 --> 0:36:35.759
<v Speaker 2>described the way the deputies laughed and sneered at them

0:36:35.800 --> 0:36:39.200
<v Speaker 2>on bloody Sunday, saying those cops were just like the

0:36:39.280 --> 0:36:43.719
<v Speaker 2>men who murdered James Reeb, except they'd been deputized by

0:36:43.760 --> 0:36:49.040
<v Speaker 2>the state to do it. After that march, she called

0:36:49.080 --> 0:36:53.040
<v Speaker 2>her husband. She'd made up her mind and she was

0:36:53.080 --> 0:37:12.719
<v Speaker 2>going to Selma. That's not unreasonable. That's not something you

0:37:12.719 --> 0:37:14.920
<v Speaker 2>would only do if you were on drugs or in

0:37:14.960 --> 0:37:19.120
<v Speaker 2>the grips of a serious psychiatric episode. It doesn't even

0:37:19.160 --> 0:37:22.520
<v Speaker 2>seem that surprising to me. She wasn't the only person

0:37:22.520 --> 0:37:26.040
<v Speaker 2>who did this. She'd been interested in the civil rights

0:37:26.040 --> 0:37:29.440
<v Speaker 2>movement for a year. She was involved with the NAACP

0:37:29.640 --> 0:37:33.400
<v Speaker 2>and the Unitarian Church. She marched in Detroit in solidarity

0:37:33.440 --> 0:37:37.160
<v Speaker 2>with Selma, and she heard the impassioned pleas for help

0:37:37.719 --> 0:37:41.440
<v Speaker 2>from the people who'd been there. They wanted more people

0:37:41.960 --> 0:37:44.959
<v Speaker 2>to go back down to Alabama with them to join

0:37:44.960 --> 0:37:53.160
<v Speaker 2>the march to Montgomery. So she did, that's not crazy.

0:37:53.680 --> 0:37:57.600
<v Speaker 2>I can see myself doing something like that. I think

0:37:57.600 --> 0:38:02.960
<v Speaker 2>a lot of us can. It's not your fight, her

0:38:03.040 --> 0:38:08.240
<v Speaker 2>husband told her, but she disagreed. She told her family

0:38:09.640 --> 0:38:16.080
<v Speaker 2>it's everyone's fight. Viola spent six days in Alabama, the

0:38:16.160 --> 0:38:19.759
<v Speaker 2>last six days of her life. She got in touch

0:38:19.800 --> 0:38:22.520
<v Speaker 2>with organizers at the Southern Christian Leadership Conference and they

0:38:22.600 --> 0:38:25.000
<v Speaker 2>put her to work shuttling people back and forth between

0:38:25.040 --> 0:38:30.799
<v Speaker 2>Selma and Montgomery. When the march began, Viola march too.

0:38:32.120 --> 0:38:35.080
<v Speaker 2>She walked across the Edmund Pettis Bridge, just two weeks

0:38:35.080 --> 0:38:37.840
<v Speaker 2>after sobbing on the couch at home in Detroit watching

0:38:37.880 --> 0:38:42.520
<v Speaker 2>the news of bloody Sunday. The night before the march

0:38:42.560 --> 0:38:46.000
<v Speaker 2>reached Montgomery, Biola was volunteering with the medics at Saint

0:38:46.080 --> 0:38:50.279
<v Speaker 2>Jude's Catholic Church just outside the city. She spent the

0:38:50.360 --> 0:38:53.759
<v Speaker 2>evening gently dressing the bloody feet of marchers who'd walked

0:38:53.760 --> 0:38:58.400
<v Speaker 2>barefoot on this pilgrimage. Father Timothy D. C offered her

0:38:58.400 --> 0:39:01.480
<v Speaker 2>one of the cots in the church basement. She said

0:39:01.480 --> 0:39:03.239
<v Speaker 2>there were people who needed it more than she did,

0:39:03.960 --> 0:39:08.439
<v Speaker 2>and she slept alone in her car. On the morning

0:39:08.480 --> 0:39:10.799
<v Speaker 2>of March twenty fifth, she asked Father d C if

0:39:10.800 --> 0:39:13.360
<v Speaker 2>there was anywhere she could go to get a good.

0:39:13.200 --> 0:39:14.320
<v Speaker 1>Look at where they were headed.

0:39:15.640 --> 0:39:17.400
<v Speaker 2>So he took her up to the church bell tower,

0:39:19.160 --> 0:39:21.480
<v Speaker 2>and together they looked out over the landscape, and they

0:39:21.480 --> 0:39:24.279
<v Speaker 2>could see the line of marchers already streaming from Saint

0:39:24.400 --> 0:39:27.400
<v Speaker 2>Jude's heading out for the four mile walk to the capitol.

0:39:29.160 --> 0:39:33.360
<v Speaker 2>Howl Dec says she got pale and anxious, and she

0:39:33.440 --> 0:39:35.399
<v Speaker 2>turned to him and she said that suddenly she felt

0:39:35.480 --> 0:39:40.480
<v Speaker 2>very sure that someone would die that day. But they

0:39:40.480 --> 0:39:44.960
<v Speaker 2>prayed together and that seemed to ease her fears. And

0:39:45.000 --> 0:39:47.040
<v Speaker 2>as she walked away from Saint Jude's that morning, she

0:39:47.080 --> 0:39:49.680
<v Speaker 2>slipped off her shoes so she could make the final

0:39:49.760 --> 0:39:56.520
<v Speaker 2>leg of the march into Montgomery barefoot. That evening, she

0:39:56.560 --> 0:40:00.000
<v Speaker 2>was back at Saint Jude's. Leroy Moten, a local actor

0:40:00.040 --> 0:40:02.440
<v Speaker 2>of us she'd been working with all week, took her

0:40:02.440 --> 0:40:05.160
<v Speaker 2>car from the church and drove back into Montgomery to

0:40:05.200 --> 0:40:07.160
<v Speaker 2>pick up a group of marchers who needed a ride

0:40:07.160 --> 0:40:12.000
<v Speaker 2>back to Selma. Biola called her husband and her children

0:40:12.080 --> 0:40:15.680
<v Speaker 2>every night during that trip, and this night was no different.

0:40:17.280 --> 0:40:19.440
<v Speaker 2>One of her daughters later recalled hearing the sounds of

0:40:19.480 --> 0:40:22.240
<v Speaker 2>celebration in the background when her mom called that last time,

0:40:23.440 --> 0:40:26.680
<v Speaker 2>everybody was celebrating the march.

0:40:26.480 --> 0:40:27.360
<v Speaker 1>Had been successful.

0:40:29.120 --> 0:40:31.960
<v Speaker 2>She must have been calling from Saint Jude's. After the

0:40:31.960 --> 0:40:35.319
<v Speaker 2>march was over, but before she got into her car

0:40:35.360 --> 0:40:39.440
<v Speaker 2>for the last time, Biola told her husband she'd be

0:40:39.520 --> 0:40:42.440
<v Speaker 2>leaving very soon, and she asked him to wire her

0:40:42.480 --> 0:40:46.760
<v Speaker 2>fifty dollars for the trip home. On the way to Selma,

0:40:46.960 --> 0:40:51.040
<v Speaker 2>in the car with Leroy Mowten, another car tailgated them aggressively.

0:40:52.600 --> 0:40:55.720
<v Speaker 2>She'd been warned this was a possibility. There were white

0:40:55.719 --> 0:40:58.520
<v Speaker 2>men driving around just looking for any car that had

0:40:58.560 --> 0:41:03.080
<v Speaker 2>both black and white people in side, particularly cars with

0:41:03.160 --> 0:41:07.760
<v Speaker 2>a white woman and a black man. Viola seemed unbothered

0:41:07.760 --> 0:41:10.879
<v Speaker 2>by the tailgating, though, and she joked with Leroy about

0:41:10.880 --> 0:41:12.959
<v Speaker 2>how she'd like to come back to visit Alabama again

0:41:13.000 --> 0:41:15.840
<v Speaker 2>one day if she didn't get killed. In the meantime,

0:41:18.360 --> 0:41:21.279
<v Speaker 2>after they dropped off the first batch of passengers in Selma,

0:41:21.520 --> 0:41:25.320
<v Speaker 2>Leroy and Viola took a break for dinner. They ate separately,

0:41:26.000 --> 0:41:27.880
<v Speaker 2>but they were both back in Viola's car a little

0:41:27.880 --> 0:41:31.839
<v Speaker 2>after seven pm, heading back to Montgomery to pick up

0:41:31.840 --> 0:41:36.719
<v Speaker 2>more people who needed rides to Selma. The car full

0:41:36.760 --> 0:41:39.279
<v Speaker 2>of klansmen spotted them in a red light near the

0:41:39.440 --> 0:41:43.960
<v Speaker 2>Edmund Pettis Bridge. It was clear almost immediately that they

0:41:43.960 --> 0:41:49.760
<v Speaker 2>were being followed. FBI informant and klansman Gary Rowe claimed

0:41:49.760 --> 0:41:53.960
<v Speaker 2>that she evaded them with surprising speed, getting her oldsmobile

0:41:54.040 --> 0:41:56.600
<v Speaker 2>up to ninety miles an hour a few times. During

0:41:56.600 --> 0:42:02.840
<v Speaker 2>this twenty minute pursuit. Leroy Moten recalls that she hummed,

0:42:03.040 --> 0:42:07.040
<v Speaker 2>we shall overcome as she concentrated on the road, speeding

0:42:07.080 --> 0:42:10.279
<v Speaker 2>down the dark highway, trying desperately to make it back

0:42:10.320 --> 0:42:13.200
<v Speaker 2>to Montgomery with this carful of white men in hot pursuit.

0:42:18.080 --> 0:42:20.839
<v Speaker 2>Roe claims it was klansman Collie Wilkins who fired at

0:42:20.840 --> 0:42:24.600
<v Speaker 2>Biola when they finally caught up to her. She was

0:42:24.680 --> 0:42:29.280
<v Speaker 2>hit twice in the head. She was almost certainly already

0:42:29.280 --> 0:42:33.640
<v Speaker 2>dead when the car skidded into a ditch. Leroy Moten

0:42:33.680 --> 0:42:36.400
<v Speaker 2>was injured in the crash, but he'd not been shot.

0:42:38.160 --> 0:42:40.319
<v Speaker 2>He ran for three miles before he was picked up

0:42:40.320 --> 0:42:45.879
<v Speaker 2>by another vehicle ferrying marchers back to Selma. All four

0:42:45.920 --> 0:42:49.440
<v Speaker 2>klansmen from the car were arrested the very next day.

0:42:50.120 --> 0:42:52.359
<v Speaker 2>It was hardly a mystery to the FBI who'd done it.

0:42:53.000 --> 0:42:55.400
<v Speaker 2>Gary Rogue called Hiss FBI handler Liter that night.

0:42:55.239 --> 0:42:56.359
<v Speaker 1>And told him.

0:42:56.719 --> 0:42:58.920
<v Speaker 2>The two later met in a parking lot and the

0:42:59.000 --> 0:43:01.360
<v Speaker 2>gun Roe gave his hand that night was never admitted

0:43:01.400 --> 0:43:06.760
<v Speaker 2>into evidence. President Lyndon Johnson announced the arrest of Collie Wilkins,

0:43:06.800 --> 0:43:09.680
<v Speaker 2>Gary Rowe, William Eaton, and Eugene Thomas on TV the

0:43:09.800 --> 0:43:13.600
<v Speaker 2>very next day, but only three of them were charged.

0:43:14.719 --> 0:43:17.840
<v Speaker 2>FBI informant Gary Rowe testified against the other three klansmen.

0:43:19.760 --> 0:43:22.040
<v Speaker 2>All three of those clansmen were charged with murder by

0:43:22.040 --> 0:43:25.920
<v Speaker 2>the state courts in Alabama, and in a separate federal case,

0:43:26.239 --> 0:43:29.120
<v Speaker 2>they were indicted on charges of conspiracy to interfere with

0:43:29.160 --> 0:43:35.960
<v Speaker 2>civil rights. Those federal charges notably said nothing about murder.

0:43:38.160 --> 0:43:41.120
<v Speaker 2>The murder charges were just in the state courts in Alabama,

0:43:42.040 --> 0:43:45.200
<v Speaker 2>and a white jury in Alabama wouldn't convict a klansman.

0:43:46.960 --> 0:43:49.680
<v Speaker 2>Eaton ultimately died of a heart attack before he faced trial,

0:43:49.760 --> 0:43:54.600
<v Speaker 2>but Eugene Thomas was acquitted. Collie Wilkins, the man Row

0:43:54.640 --> 0:43:58.400
<v Speaker 2>accused of firing the fatal shot, was tried twice. The

0:43:58.440 --> 0:44:01.480
<v Speaker 2>first time, the all white jury voted unanimously against convicting

0:44:01.520 --> 0:44:05.840
<v Speaker 2>Wilkins of murder, but they were close to a conviction

0:44:05.920 --> 0:44:06.680
<v Speaker 2>on manslaughter.

0:44:06.760 --> 0:44:07.600
<v Speaker 1>It was ten to two.

0:44:09.680 --> 0:44:12.480
<v Speaker 2>Newspaper reports say the two holdouts that saved Wilkins from

0:44:12.520 --> 0:44:16.799
<v Speaker 2>prison told reporters that they just couldn't trust the testimony

0:44:16.800 --> 0:44:20.480
<v Speaker 2>of a man like Gary Rowe, not because he was

0:44:20.480 --> 0:44:24.920
<v Speaker 2>an admitted paid government informant, but because he was an oathbreaker.

0:44:26.239 --> 0:44:29.239
<v Speaker 2>He'd broken the oath he took as a klansman and

0:44:29.280 --> 0:44:32.160
<v Speaker 2>as klansmen themselves. That's something they took very seriously.

0:44:33.920 --> 0:44:35.719
<v Speaker 1>Wilkins got a hung jury the first.

0:44:35.480 --> 0:44:38.360
<v Speaker 2>Time around, and he was outright acquitted when they tried again.

0:44:40.480 --> 0:44:42.920
<v Speaker 2>When it came time to testify against his friends in

0:44:42.960 --> 0:44:47.840
<v Speaker 2>the federal trials, Roe was playing hard to get. I

0:44:47.880 --> 0:44:49.560
<v Speaker 2>don't know what was going on in his head, but

0:44:50.160 --> 0:44:52.359
<v Speaker 2>maybe he knew he had the FBI over a barrel here.

0:44:53.640 --> 0:44:56.720
<v Speaker 2>With the state murder trials ending without convictions, the federal

0:44:56.800 --> 0:44:58.960
<v Speaker 2>civil rights trial was the only way to lock anyone

0:44:59.040 --> 0:45:03.000
<v Speaker 2>up for this murder. They had put an FBI informant

0:45:03.000 --> 0:45:05.440
<v Speaker 2>on the stand to testify that he was there when

0:45:05.480 --> 0:45:09.799
<v Speaker 2>it happened. So it would be awfully shameful if everybody walked.

0:45:13.960 --> 0:45:14.560
<v Speaker 1>In November of.

0:45:14.600 --> 0:45:18.480
<v Speaker 2>Nineteen sixty five, a series of increasingly frantic FBI memos

0:45:18.520 --> 0:45:23.560
<v Speaker 2>sent directly to j Edgar Hoover outlined the problem. Gary

0:45:23.640 --> 0:45:28.400
<v Speaker 2>Rowe wanted more money, a lot of it. He wanted

0:45:28.440 --> 0:45:32.160
<v Speaker 2>thousands of dollars of debt paid off, unpaid alimony to

0:45:32.200 --> 0:45:35.360
<v Speaker 2>his wife, overdue power bills, months of delinquent rent on

0:45:35.440 --> 0:45:38.560
<v Speaker 2>his apartment, a few thousand for a failed business venture.

0:45:39.520 --> 0:45:43.200
<v Speaker 2>Pretty typical kinds of debts. But three grand and unpaid

0:45:43.200 --> 0:45:46.880
<v Speaker 2>bills in nineteen sixty five is more like thirty thousand

0:45:46.880 --> 0:45:52.560
<v Speaker 2>dollars today. Roe was in deep but when they put

0:45:52.600 --> 0:45:55.160
<v Speaker 2>him on the stand, they would have to admit that

0:45:55.200 --> 0:45:58.400
<v Speaker 2>he was a paid informant, which makes the records of

0:45:58.400 --> 0:46:01.960
<v Speaker 2>any payments made to him for that work relevant evidence

0:46:02.280 --> 0:46:06.000
<v Speaker 2>that they would have to produce. And it wouldn't look

0:46:06.120 --> 0:46:09.240
<v Speaker 2>great if they paid him thousands of dollars right before

0:46:09.239 --> 0:46:15.200
<v Speaker 2>a trial. And he didn't just want money. He wanted

0:46:15.200 --> 0:46:19.400
<v Speaker 2>a new life. He wanted to be relocated with his family.

0:46:20.520 --> 0:46:22.560
<v Speaker 2>He wanted the government to promise him not only that

0:46:22.600 --> 0:46:26.200
<v Speaker 2>he'd never be prosecuted for anything ever, but they'd never

0:46:26.200 --> 0:46:28.760
<v Speaker 2>make him testify again about anything.

0:46:29.400 --> 0:46:29.640
<v Speaker 1>Never.

0:46:32.040 --> 0:46:36.600
<v Speaker 2>As the trial date approached, the memos got weirder. In

0:46:36.680 --> 0:46:41.160
<v Speaker 2>late November, his handler described him as highly emotional, distraught,

0:46:41.480 --> 0:46:46.520
<v Speaker 2>and tearful during a meeting. He'd previously agreed to testify,

0:46:46.560 --> 0:46:48.680
<v Speaker 2>but now he's trying to back out, saying he felt

0:46:48.760 --> 0:46:51.080
<v Speaker 2>let down by the FBI and he no longer trusts

0:46:51.080 --> 0:46:55.920
<v Speaker 2>his handler. He alternated between saying that maybe they wouldn't

0:46:55.960 --> 0:46:58.359
<v Speaker 2>even want him to testify because he couldn't guarantee that

0:46:58.400 --> 0:47:01.280
<v Speaker 2>what he was going to say would be helpful, almost

0:47:01.360 --> 0:47:05.160
<v Speaker 2>implying that he planned to lie. And then he said

0:47:05.160 --> 0:47:07.799
<v Speaker 2>he just wouldn't go, that they'd have to subpoena him,

0:47:07.840 --> 0:47:09.880
<v Speaker 2>and even then they'd have to use physical force if

0:47:09.920 --> 0:47:13.480
<v Speaker 2>they wanted to get him back into a courtroom in Alabama.

0:47:14.080 --> 0:47:15.560
<v Speaker 1>And then he started bargaining again.

0:47:16.560 --> 0:47:19.560
<v Speaker 2>If the government could make him a series of promises,

0:47:20.400 --> 0:47:23.239
<v Speaker 2>he'd do it, but they had to promise that he

0:47:23.280 --> 0:47:26.520
<v Speaker 2>would never have to testify again, not about anything, not ever,

0:47:27.400 --> 0:47:31.239
<v Speaker 2>and he wanted a massive severance. He wanted his entire

0:47:31.320 --> 0:47:35.480
<v Speaker 2>family relocated, including his elderly parents, which would mean that

0:47:35.520 --> 0:47:37.960
<v Speaker 2>his father would have to be financially compensated for the

0:47:38.000 --> 0:47:41.880
<v Speaker 2>loss of employment that relocation would cause. Had It went

0:47:41.920 --> 0:47:44.920
<v Speaker 2>on and on, and some of them were pretty absurd,

0:47:45.920 --> 0:47:49.400
<v Speaker 2>But one thing he wouldn't budge on was he wanted

0:47:49.560 --> 0:47:54.600
<v Speaker 2>a job. Specifically, he demanded that the FBI get him

0:47:54.600 --> 0:48:01.239
<v Speaker 2>a job as a Border Patrol agent. In the end,

0:48:01.280 --> 0:48:04.799
<v Speaker 2>he got almost everything he asked for. After the three

0:48:04.840 --> 0:48:07.960
<v Speaker 2>clansmen were convicted on the federal civil rights charge, the

0:48:08.120 --> 0:48:12.400
<v Speaker 2>FBI paid Gary row ten thousand dollars, the equivalent of

0:48:12.400 --> 0:48:16.640
<v Speaker 2>over one hundred thousand dollars to day. He was given

0:48:16.640 --> 0:48:21.719
<v Speaker 2>a new identity and a job. He didn't quite get

0:48:21.719 --> 0:48:25.200
<v Speaker 2>his dream job with the Border Patrol, but he worked

0:48:25.239 --> 0:48:26.040
<v Speaker 2>for some time.

0:48:25.840 --> 0:48:26.800
<v Speaker 1>As a U. S Marshal.

0:48:28.920 --> 0:48:31.600
<v Speaker 2>A decade later, when Wilkins and Thomas were finally out

0:48:31.600 --> 0:48:35.279
<v Speaker 2>of prison, they went on a national news program to

0:48:35.360 --> 0:48:40.000
<v Speaker 2>accuse Gary Rowe of being the real trigger man. They

0:48:40.040 --> 0:48:43.040
<v Speaker 2>both passed polygraph exams or whatever that's worth to you,

0:48:44.440 --> 0:48:48.759
<v Speaker 2>and additional witnesses came forward, including two policemen who testified

0:48:48.760 --> 0:48:52.120
<v Speaker 2>before a grand jury that Roe had bragged about being

0:48:52.200 --> 0:48:57.680
<v Speaker 2>the one to kill Liuzou. The prosecution was halted by

0:48:57.719 --> 0:49:03.480
<v Speaker 2>a federal injunction. He'd been granted immunity. It didn't matter

0:49:03.520 --> 0:49:06.520
<v Speaker 2>how many witnesses came forward and gave sworn testimony that

0:49:06.520 --> 0:49:08.560
<v Speaker 2>they knew for a fact that he was the killer,

0:49:08.600 --> 0:49:10.800
<v Speaker 2>that they saw him do it, that there was evidence

0:49:10.800 --> 0:49:13.000
<v Speaker 2>that he'd done it, that he admitted to them that

0:49:13.040 --> 0:49:15.560
<v Speaker 2>he'd done it, that he bragged about it.

0:49:15.560 --> 0:49:16.240
<v Speaker 1>It didn't matter.

0:49:17.560 --> 0:49:20.799
<v Speaker 2>The FBI had given him complete and total immunity in

0:49:20.880 --> 0:49:24.040
<v Speaker 2>exchange for the testimony he gave that put three other

0:49:24.080 --> 0:49:25.840
<v Speaker 2>men in prison for a murder that he at the

0:49:26.000 --> 0:49:31.120
<v Speaker 2>very least participated in. The gun he gave his FBI

0:49:31.200 --> 0:49:33.760
<v Speaker 2>handler the night of the murder was never examined as evidence,

0:49:34.880 --> 0:49:37.880
<v Speaker 2>and the FBI had every reason to cover up the

0:49:37.920 --> 0:49:41.760
<v Speaker 2>possibility that they'd paid thousands of dollars to a murderer.

0:49:43.120 --> 0:49:46.279
<v Speaker 2>It wouldn't be the first time they'd done it or

0:49:46.320 --> 0:49:52.440
<v Speaker 2>the last. So to distract from the involvement of a

0:49:52.480 --> 0:49:56.800
<v Speaker 2>federal informant with a documented history of violence, the FBI

0:49:56.880 --> 0:49:57.279
<v Speaker 2>dragged the.

0:49:57.320 --> 0:49:58.120
<v Speaker 1>Victim through the mud.

0:49:59.320 --> 0:50:01.360
<v Speaker 2>They played up her arest record and called her a

0:50:01.440 --> 0:50:05.319
<v Speaker 2>terrible mother. They drew up an FBI memo claiming that

0:50:05.360 --> 0:50:08.320
<v Speaker 2>an examination of the body revealed needle marks on her arms,

0:50:09.000 --> 0:50:12.000
<v Speaker 2>and then they intentionally leaked the fake memo to the press,

0:50:12.680 --> 0:50:15.680
<v Speaker 2>never mind that the actual autopsy report made no such

0:50:15.719 --> 0:50:19.759
<v Speaker 2>finding and there were no drugs in her system. Her

0:50:19.800 --> 0:50:23.200
<v Speaker 2>husband and children were harassed, a cross was burned in

0:50:23.239 --> 0:50:25.680
<v Speaker 2>their yard in Detroit the week of her funeral, and

0:50:25.719 --> 0:50:30.359
<v Speaker 2>they reported receiving obscene phone calls for months. If Hoover

0:50:30.440 --> 0:50:34.120
<v Speaker 2>had his way, Biola Luzo would not be memorialized as

0:50:34.160 --> 0:50:37.040
<v Speaker 2>a loving mother who felt moved to fight for civil rights.

0:50:38.120 --> 0:50:40.800
<v Speaker 2>She'd be shamed as a lunatic who abandoned her children,

0:50:40.880 --> 0:50:44.040
<v Speaker 2>shot up heroin, and had adulterous inner racial sex, and

0:50:44.080 --> 0:50:50.360
<v Speaker 2>then was quickly forgotten. The clan killed Biola Luzo, but

0:50:50.440 --> 0:50:54.680
<v Speaker 2>the FBI tried to kill her memory. And it's really

0:50:54.680 --> 0:50:57.440
<v Speaker 2>the same as it ever was. As I'm writing this,

0:50:57.600 --> 0:51:01.040
<v Speaker 2>I just saw New York Times headline from today, Monday,

0:51:01.239 --> 0:51:06.280
<v Speaker 2>January twelfth, twenty twenty six. FBI inquiry into Ice shooting

0:51:06.360 --> 0:51:12.480
<v Speaker 2>is examining victims possible ties to activist groups. They're investigating

0:51:12.480 --> 0:51:16.799
<v Speaker 2>the victim because they already know everything they need to

0:51:16.800 --> 0:51:17.640
<v Speaker 2>know about the killer.

0:51:19.040 --> 0:51:23.640
<v Speaker 1>He's on their payroll. If you've been to a.

0:51:23.600 --> 0:51:28.960
<v Speaker 2>Protest anytime in the last fifty years or so you've

0:51:29.000 --> 0:51:29.760
<v Speaker 2>heard this chant.

0:51:32.719 --> 0:51:40.560
<v Speaker 7>Think cop, thinkin non im, thinkin hend then hard.

0:51:40.840 --> 0:51:49.319
<v Speaker 2>I think plank no man. Cops and clan go hand

0:51:49.400 --> 0:51:54.160
<v Speaker 2>in hand. The earliest mention of that exact phrase being

0:51:54.320 --> 0:51:57.440
<v Speaker 2>used as a protest chant that I could find was

0:51:57.480 --> 0:52:00.759
<v Speaker 2>in a newspaper article from nineteen seventy six. But I

0:52:00.840 --> 0:52:03.480
<v Speaker 2>really only spend a few minutes looking, and I'm certain

0:52:03.560 --> 0:52:07.479
<v Speaker 2>it predates the late seventies. I'm sure it was something

0:52:07.560 --> 0:52:10.759
<v Speaker 2>Black Southerners said quietly to one another for a long

0:52:10.880 --> 0:52:13.400
<v Speaker 2>time before it was ever chanted at a protest.

0:52:15.280 --> 0:52:16.040
<v Speaker 1>But what does it mean.

0:52:17.560 --> 0:52:21.440
<v Speaker 2>I've heard it chanted at local cops, sheriff's deputies, state police,

0:52:21.719 --> 0:52:25.520
<v Speaker 2>National guardsmen. I've heard it at clan rallies and school

0:52:25.560 --> 0:52:30.040
<v Speaker 2>board meetings. I've shouted at myself with lips that burned

0:52:30.080 --> 0:52:31.240
<v Speaker 2>with the taste of pepper spray.

0:52:32.920 --> 0:52:34.439
<v Speaker 1>But what does it mean?

0:52:35.920 --> 0:52:37.799
<v Speaker 2>I never really gave it a lot of thought. It's

0:52:38.320 --> 0:52:40.440
<v Speaker 2>just one of those things that makes perfect sense to

0:52:40.520 --> 0:52:44.719
<v Speaker 2>me and doesn't merit further consideration. But it could mean

0:52:44.760 --> 0:52:45.359
<v Speaker 2>a lot of things.

0:52:46.800 --> 0:52:48.000
<v Speaker 1>Maybe it's just an.

0:52:47.920 --> 0:52:52.799
<v Speaker 2>Abbreviated way of expressing that law enforcement and organized white

0:52:52.840 --> 0:52:57.359
<v Speaker 2>supremacist groups that engage in extra judicial violence exist along

0:52:57.400 --> 0:53:00.560
<v Speaker 2>a spectrum of racial violence, meeting out that violence on

0:53:00.680 --> 0:53:04.520
<v Speaker 2>subjugated groups with varying degrees of legitimacy and public approval.

0:53:06.120 --> 0:53:08.720
<v Speaker 2>Or maybe it's meant to be commentary on the historical

0:53:08.760 --> 0:53:10.920
<v Speaker 2>evolution of modern policing and the way that it grew

0:53:10.960 --> 0:53:15.120
<v Speaker 2>out of Antebellum slave patrols, thus quite literally positioning cops

0:53:15.160 --> 0:53:18.400
<v Speaker 2>as the modern successor to groups of violent racist vigilantes.

0:53:20.320 --> 0:53:23.040
<v Speaker 2>I've been an actual clan rallies where it seems to

0:53:23.080 --> 0:53:25.760
<v Speaker 2>be a cry of frustration that the police are clearly

0:53:25.840 --> 0:53:28.880
<v Speaker 2>serving and protecting the interests of the actual clan at

0:53:28.920 --> 0:53:31.480
<v Speaker 2>the expense of the community, and in ways that result

0:53:31.560 --> 0:53:35.439
<v Speaker 2>in violence towards those who oppose the clan. Or maybe

0:53:35.480 --> 0:53:38.839
<v Speaker 2>it's even further removed from the words themselves. Maybe it's

0:53:38.880 --> 0:53:42.480
<v Speaker 2>a metonomy where cops refers to the state in general,

0:53:42.719 --> 0:53:46.800
<v Speaker 2>and clan is any sort of extra judicial enforcement mechanism

0:53:46.880 --> 0:53:50.640
<v Speaker 2>of the darker whims of that state. That's probably broad

0:53:50.719 --> 0:53:56.600
<v Speaker 2>enough to hold all possible meanings. Maybe it's all of

0:53:56.680 --> 0:53:59.640
<v Speaker 2>those things or none of them, but it doesn't actually

0:53:59.719 --> 0:54:05.319
<v Speaker 2>matter because it's literal. It's not a metaphor, it's not hyperbole.

0:54:05.520 --> 0:54:08.400
<v Speaker 2>It's not taking liberties. It's not a joke. It is

0:54:08.480 --> 0:54:15.760
<v Speaker 2>the literal, factual, historical truth. Cops and clan do indeed

0:54:15.960 --> 0:54:20.120
<v Speaker 2>go hand in hand. When Caesar cow said, James Waller,

0:54:20.160 --> 0:54:23.279
<v Speaker 2>William Evan Simpson, Sandra Nilie Smith, and Michael Nathan were

0:54:23.360 --> 0:54:26.160
<v Speaker 2>gunned down in the streets of Greensboro, North Carolina, there

0:54:26.239 --> 0:54:28.640
<v Speaker 2>was a police informant in the car with the klansmen

0:54:28.719 --> 0:54:30.600
<v Speaker 2>and the Nazis who shot them, And there was a

0:54:30.640 --> 0:54:33.640
<v Speaker 2>police informant at the clan meetings where their murders were planned.

0:54:34.440 --> 0:54:37.120
<v Speaker 2>When Yola Luza was shot in the head in Selma, Alabama,

0:54:37.160 --> 0:54:38.960
<v Speaker 2>there was an FBI informant in the car with the

0:54:39.000 --> 0:54:42.279
<v Speaker 2>clansmen who killed her. When the Birmingham police found out

0:54:42.280 --> 0:54:44.560
<v Speaker 2>the Freedom Riders were coming in nineteen sixty one, they

0:54:44.640 --> 0:54:47.879
<v Speaker 2>conspired with the clan to attack buses full of civil

0:54:47.960 --> 0:54:51.600
<v Speaker 2>rights activists. Bull Connor told the clan they had fifteen

0:54:51.680 --> 0:54:55.360
<v Speaker 2>minutes of free reign. A police captain told the clansmen

0:54:55.440 --> 0:54:58.719
<v Speaker 2>on the FBI's payroll, you can beat them, bomb them,

0:54:59.040 --> 0:55:01.399
<v Speaker 2>Maimon kill I don't give a shit.

0:55:01.920 --> 0:55:03.960
<v Speaker 1>There will be absolutely no arrests.

0:55:04.960 --> 0:55:07.400
<v Speaker 2>And the FBI knew, and the FBI didn't stop it.

0:55:08.080 --> 0:55:11.160
<v Speaker 2>They didn't warn anyone about what was coming. When the

0:55:11.239 --> 0:55:14.560
<v Speaker 2>mob of klansmen firebombed those buses and beat the fleeing

0:55:14.640 --> 0:55:17.480
<v Speaker 2>passengers with pipes and bats and chains, it was the

0:55:17.640 --> 0:55:22.719
<v Speaker 2>FBI informant himself leading the mob. When Michael Schwerner, James Cheney,

0:55:22.760 --> 0:55:25.520
<v Speaker 2>Andrew Goodman were killed in Nishaba County, Mississippi, it was

0:55:25.560 --> 0:55:29.280
<v Speaker 2>a lynching coordinated and planned by local police who discussed

0:55:29.320 --> 0:55:31.359
<v Speaker 2>the plan not at their police station, but at their

0:55:31.400 --> 0:55:35.120
<v Speaker 2>clan meetings. When the clansmen who murdered four little girls

0:55:35.160 --> 0:55:38.120
<v Speaker 2>in a church basement in Birmingham was finally prosecuted, he

0:55:38.239 --> 0:55:41.040
<v Speaker 2>went to his grave insisting that he'd only purchased that

0:55:41.160 --> 0:55:44.120
<v Speaker 2>dynamite and it was his friend, the FBI informant, who

0:55:44.200 --> 0:55:47.120
<v Speaker 2>placed it beneath the steps at the sixteenth Street Baptist Church,

0:55:47.440 --> 0:55:50.319
<v Speaker 2>killing Addie May Collin, Cynthia Wesley, Carroll Robertson, and Carroll

0:55:50.360 --> 0:55:53.120
<v Speaker 2>to niece McNair. He was never made to answer for

0:55:53.200 --> 0:55:56.160
<v Speaker 2>that accusation, but he was the same FBI informant who

0:55:56.280 --> 0:55:58.640
<v Speaker 2>later admitted to murdering a black man whose name he

0:55:58.760 --> 0:56:03.160
<v Speaker 2>couldn't even remember. When klansmen rioted in Myrtle Beach in

0:56:03.239 --> 0:56:05.120
<v Speaker 2>nineteen fifty, and one of their own was killed by

0:56:05.200 --> 0:56:08.280
<v Speaker 2>friendly fire as that crowd of masked races fired hundreds

0:56:08.320 --> 0:56:10.680
<v Speaker 2>of bullets into a black owned bar. They took their

0:56:10.719 --> 0:56:12.759
<v Speaker 2>fallen brother to the hospital, and when they stripped the

0:56:12.800 --> 0:56:15.160
<v Speaker 2>white robe off his dead body, he was still wearing

0:56:15.200 --> 0:56:21.959
<v Speaker 2>his policeman's uniform underneath. For decades, the federal government paid

0:56:22.000 --> 0:56:25.560
<v Speaker 2>klansmen to do their dirty work. They've used klansmen and

0:56:25.719 --> 0:56:28.320
<v Speaker 2>neo Nazis and right wing extremists of all stripes to

0:56:28.440 --> 0:56:34.400
<v Speaker 2>disrupt progressive movements. They've ignored credible intelligence about murders and

0:56:34.520 --> 0:56:37.640
<v Speaker 2>bombings they could have stopped, and they looked the other

0:56:37.719 --> 0:56:40.920
<v Speaker 2>way when their informants participated in violence against people they

0:56:41.040 --> 0:56:45.200
<v Speaker 2>thought posed a greater threat to the status quo. And

0:56:45.280 --> 0:56:49.560
<v Speaker 2>they've always thought liberty, equality, freedom, tolerance, diversity, and civil

0:56:49.680 --> 0:56:53.360
<v Speaker 2>rights were far more threatening than bombs in church basements

0:56:53.400 --> 0:56:55.240
<v Speaker 2>and lynchings on dark, abandoned highways.

0:56:57.000 --> 0:56:59.640
<v Speaker 1>The comps the clan have.

0:56:59.680 --> 0:57:02.880
<v Speaker 2>Always worked hand in hand to share the burden of

0:57:03.000 --> 0:57:08.239
<v Speaker 2>violently enforcing white supremacy, whether the klansman's FBI checks or

0:57:08.280 --> 0:57:10.680
<v Speaker 2>off the books, or the fascist foot soldier is getting

0:57:10.680 --> 0:57:13.200
<v Speaker 2>a W two from DHS. The violence is the same,

0:57:13.920 --> 0:57:17.600
<v Speaker 2>the goal is the same. They're doing what they've always done,

0:57:17.600 --> 0:57:22.280
<v Speaker 2>and so will we. I don't know exactly how long

0:57:22.400 --> 0:57:26.320
<v Speaker 2>this moral arc of the universe is, but never forget

0:57:27.400 --> 0:57:29.600
<v Speaker 2>you aren't the first to throw your shoulder into it,

0:57:31.120 --> 0:57:34.040
<v Speaker 2>determined to see it bent towards justice.

0:57:50.200 --> 0:57:52.160
<v Speaker 1>Read Little Guys as a production of Cool Zone Media

0:57:52.200 --> 0:57:55.800
<v Speaker 1>and iHeartRadio. It's researched, written and recorded by me Molly Conger.

0:57:56.400 --> 0:57:59.400
<v Speaker 1>Our executive producers are Sophie Lichterman and Robert Evans. The

0:57:59.440 --> 0:58:01.760
<v Speaker 1>show is at a by the wildly talented Rory Gagan.

0:58:02.280 --> 0:58:04.080
<v Speaker 1>The theme music was composed by Brad Dickert.

0:58:04.720 --> 0:58:06.720
<v Speaker 2>You can email me at Weird Little Guys podcast at

0:58:06.760 --> 0:58:08.760
<v Speaker 2>gmail dot com. I will definitely read it, but I

0:58:08.840 --> 0:58:09.560
<v Speaker 2>probably won't answer.

0:58:09.560 --> 0:58:10.480
<v Speaker 1>It's nothing personal.

0:58:11.320 --> 0:58:13.400
<v Speaker 2>You can exchange conspiracy theories about the show with other

0:58:13.520 --> 0:58:17.400
<v Speaker 2>listeners on the Weird Little Guys Subreddy. Just don't post

0:58:17.440 --> 0:58:18.760
<v Speaker 2>anything that's going to make you one of my Weird

0:58:18.800 --> 0:58:19.360
<v Speaker 2>Little Guys.