1
00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:02,880
Speaker 1: Wo Zone media.

2
00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:10,480
Speaker 2: Before her children even knew their mother had been killed,

3
00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,280
Speaker 2: the federal government was already busy rewriting the story of

4
00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,640
Speaker 2: her death. She had lived a good life.

5
00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,400
Speaker 1: Though not a long one.

6
00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,919
Speaker 2: She was happily remarried after a divorce, and despite the

7
00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,240
Speaker 2: demands of motherhood, she went back to school in her thirties.

8
00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,960
Speaker 2: People who loved her described her as a Christian woman,

9
00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:38,320
Speaker 2: a devoted mother, and someone who believed passionately in loving everyone,

10
00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,000
Speaker 2: so much so that she put that belief into action.

11
00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,720
Speaker 2: And as the FBI commandeered the investigation into her death,

12
00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:49,319
Speaker 2: her grieving spouse was left trying to explain what had

13
00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:55,520
Speaker 2: happened to her children. Her youngest was just six years old.

14
00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,200
Speaker 2: She had both hands on the steering wheel when she was.

15
00:00:59,200 --> 00:00:59,840
Speaker 1: Shot in the head.

16
00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:03,360
Speaker 2: She was dead before her car came to a stop,

17
00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,320
Speaker 2: crashing not far from the spot where her killer had

18
00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,039
Speaker 2: fired at her. The person she was traveling with that

19
00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:15,360
Speaker 2: day was miraculously not hit. There should have been no

20
00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:19,080
Speaker 2: way to spin it. The investigation revealed the shooter and

21
00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:24,920
Speaker 2: his motive almost immediately, but federal officials seated doubt, planning

22
00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,160
Speaker 2: stories in the media that she was sexually immoral that

23
00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,080
Speaker 2: she neglected her children, that her spouse was a person

24
00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:36,680
Speaker 2: with questionable associates, she was an extremist, an outside agitator,

25
00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,080
Speaker 2: she had dangerous left wing politics, and she might even

26
00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:45,360
Speaker 2: be a communist. She was sick, degenerate, and she brought

27
00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:50,560
Speaker 2: this on herself. Of course, the FBI director spreading these

28
00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,040
Speaker 2: lies about her knew they weren't true. But in March

29
00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:58,040
Speaker 2: of nineteen sixty five, Jay Edgar Hoover was desperate to

30
00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,280
Speaker 2: distract from the fact that one of the clans man

31
00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,360
Speaker 2: who killed Viola the USO, was on his pay room.

32
00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:25,240
Speaker 2: I'm Molly Conger, and this is We're gude of guys.

33
00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,880
Speaker 2: This is not the story I promised you last week.

34
00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:37,000
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. I'm sure you already guessed that. I know.

35
00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,200
Speaker 2: I ended last week's episode with a teaser for something

36
00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,639
Speaker 2: fairly specific, and I will write that episode.

37
00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:44,880
Speaker 1: I will.

38
00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,400
Speaker 2: It's poor form to complain about a job I do

39
00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,880
Speaker 2: in my pajamas, but it's not easy writing what is

40
00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,720
Speaker 2: essentially a twenty five page research paper on a new

41
00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,239
Speaker 2: topic every week. The only way it works is to

42
00:02:58,280 --> 00:02:59,040
Speaker 2: write about something.

43
00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:00,080
Speaker 1: I'm genuinely.

44
00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:03,520
Speaker 2: And I'm so lucky that I get to do that,

45
00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,440
Speaker 2: but my heart's got to be in it, and this

46
00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:15,919
Speaker 2: week my heart was troubled. I usually finished writing pretty

47
00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,359
Speaker 2: late on a Monday night Tuesday morning, if we're being

48
00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,880
Speaker 2: specific about it. My editor Rory really only gets about

49
00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:25,920
Speaker 2: a day and a half with the file to clean

50
00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:27,640
Speaker 2: it up, put the music in it, and bed the

51
00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,560
Speaker 2: audio clips and work whatever magic that he does that.

52
00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:31,880
Speaker 1: Makes it sound good.

53
00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,320
Speaker 2: And the edit I listened to on Wednesday afternoon is

54
00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:39,040
Speaker 2: the one you hear Thursday morning. It's a tight timeline,

55
00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:41,160
Speaker 2: so I really have to lock in on what I'm

56
00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,600
Speaker 2: going to research and write about pretty early in the week.

57
00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:47,480
Speaker 2: And obviously I knew what I was going to be

58
00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,400
Speaker 2: working on for this week's episode because it was a

59
00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,160
Speaker 2: continuation of the story from last week's.

60
00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:59,720
Speaker 3: Episode until it wasn't On Tuesdays, I've usually been up

61
00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,440
Speaker 3: most of the night, so I don't get a lot done.

62
00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:05,119
Speaker 2: I try to run all my errands for the week

63
00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,839
Speaker 2: on Wednesdays, but by Thursday I'm already starting to feel

64
00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,240
Speaker 2: like I'm running out of time and it's way too

65
00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,040
Speaker 2: late to change my plans. I've got to lock myself

66
00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,520
Speaker 2: in my office and focus on the topic I've chosen.

67
00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,559
Speaker 2: I was supposed to be writing about that Nazi serial killer.

68
00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:26,320
Speaker 2: I promised you, But this past week we all watched

69
00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:30,480
Speaker 2: a woman die on Wednesday, and I still ran my errands.

70
00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,240
Speaker 2: It's the only day I have time for it. But

71
00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:36,160
Speaker 2: I went about my business in kind of a daze,

72
00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:42,120
Speaker 2: and I wept for her, for her wife, for her children,

73
00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:44,320
Speaker 2: for all of us, for the world we have to

74
00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,760
Speaker 2: live in. But we all still had to get up

75
00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,640
Speaker 2: and go to work the next day. So on Thursday

76
00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:52,719
Speaker 2: and I sat at my computer and I kept taking

77
00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:58,240
Speaker 2: notes for the episode I was trying to write. On Friday,

78
00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,000
Speaker 2: more video of that murder came out.

79
00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:02,160
Speaker 1: I watched it.

80
00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:08,279
Speaker 2: Maybe you did too. If you didn't, you don't have to.

81
00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,000
Speaker 2: There's no moral requirement for you to bear witness in

82
00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:12,360
Speaker 2: that way.

83
00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:13,160
Speaker 1: I promise you.

84
00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,240
Speaker 2: But I did because I always do. And it hit

85
00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:22,360
Speaker 2: me pretty hard for the obvious reasons. Right, I was

86
00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:27,080
Speaker 2: watching a murder. I find myself doing that not infrequently

87
00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,440
Speaker 2: in this line of work, and it never gets easier,

88
00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:39,080
Speaker 2: and if it does, I'll quit. But something in particular

89
00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:44,400
Speaker 2: was stuck rattling around in my head. In the moments

90
00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:48,719
Speaker 2: before a federal agent shot and killed Renee Good, she

91
00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:54,080
Speaker 2: smiled at him, and she said, that's fine, dude, I'm.

92
00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:54,560
Speaker 1: Not mad at you.

93
00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:01,280
Speaker 2: That's a striking moment, even just on its own. She

94
00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:06,440
Speaker 2: really wasn't angry. You can see her face. She's brave,

95
00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:11,000
Speaker 2: she's determined, but she's telling the truth.

96
00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:13,240
Speaker 1: She isn't mad.

97
00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:21,520
Speaker 2: Her presence there wasn't out of anger but love. She

98
00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:26,200
Speaker 2: isn't mad at this particular man. She's doing her part

99
00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:31,160
Speaker 2: against an injustice that's bigger than either of them. This

100
00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,800
Speaker 2: isn't a show about current events. This isn't a show

101
00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,599
Speaker 2: about the news. This isn't an episode about Renee Good.

102
00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:41,560
Speaker 2: That's not what I write about, and that's not what

103
00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:45,520
Speaker 2: you're here to listen to. But it isn't my fault

104
00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,800
Speaker 2: that history rhymes. I wish it didn't. I wish the

105
00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:54,680
Speaker 2: decade I've spent writing about white supremacist violence wasn't increasingly

106
00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:56,960
Speaker 2: relevant in the way I think about current events.

107
00:06:58,839 --> 00:06:59,360
Speaker 1: But it is.

108
00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:05,240
Speaker 2: And when I watched that video, I didn't just see

109
00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:11,400
Speaker 2: Renee Good. I saw Viola Luzo. And when I heard

110
00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,560
Speaker 2: Renee Good speak her last words, I didn't just hear her.

111
00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:21,080
Speaker 2: I heard Michael Schwerner. Michael Schwerner, James Cheney, and Andrew

112
00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,880
Speaker 2: Goodman were field workers with the Congress of Racial Equality,

113
00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,240
Speaker 2: and on June twenty first, nineteen sixty four, they were

114
00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,440
Speaker 2: murdered by a mob of klansmen that included members of

115
00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:37,320
Speaker 2: the local sheriff's department. When Alton Wayne Roberts pulled Michael

116
00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,160
Speaker 2: Schwerner from his car, he asked him, are you that

117
00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:45,240
Speaker 2: N word lover? The two men were face to face,

118
00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:49,400
Speaker 2: just inches apart. The klansmen had both of his hands

119
00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,160
Speaker 2: on Schwerner's shoulders, having spun him around to look him

120
00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:56,320
Speaker 2: in the eye, and Schwerner, a twenty four year old

121
00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,600
Speaker 2: Jewish social worker from New York City, looked back at

122
00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,360
Speaker 2: that clan and he said, Sir, I know just how

123
00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:10,400
Speaker 2: you feel. He was calm, he wasn't angry. He was

124
00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:11,840
Speaker 2: trying to start a conversation.

125
00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:12,920
Speaker 1: I think.

126
00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,400
Speaker 2: I guess we can't really know what kind of dialogue

127
00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:18,200
Speaker 2: he was trying to have, because that's as far as

128
00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:22,040
Speaker 2: he got. The klansman still had one hand on one

129
00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,320
Speaker 2: of Schwerner's shoulders when he used his other hand to

130
00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,960
Speaker 2: draw his gun, and he shot Michael Schwerner point blank

131
00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:33,800
Speaker 2: in the chest, killing him instantly. And I thought, too

132
00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,840
Speaker 2: of Margaret Ann Nott, who was just sixteen years old

133
00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:41,480
Speaker 2: when she was killed in Butler, Alabama, in nineteen seventy one.

134
00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,040
Speaker 2: She was sitting on the ground with her eyes closed

135
00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:46,240
Speaker 2: in silent prayer when she was hit by the car

136
00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,440
Speaker 2: that rammed into the permitted protest she was participating in

137
00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:54,000
Speaker 2: that morning. As Margaret lay on the ground dying, she

138
00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:59,520
Speaker 2: repeated over and over again, I died for freedom.

139
00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,520
Speaker 1: I died for freedom.

140
00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,679
Speaker 2: And I thought too of Talisian non Kai Mech, who,

141
00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:08,800
Speaker 2: along with Ricky John Best, was one of two men

142
00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,120
Speaker 2: who died trying to protect two teenage girls on a

143
00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:15,520
Speaker 2: train in Portland in twenty seventeen. A Somali immigrant, a

144
00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,080
Speaker 2: young black Muslim girl wearing her hyjab, was being threatened,

145
00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,440
Speaker 2: and those strangers gave their lives to stop a neo

146
00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:29,160
Speaker 2: Nazi from hurting her. And after Tualisian was stabbed, as

147
00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,160
Speaker 2: he lay there bleeding out in the lap of a

148
00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,920
Speaker 2: stranger on the floor of the train, his last words were,

149
00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:44,240
Speaker 2: tell everyone on this train, I love them. I'm not

150
00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:49,440
Speaker 2: mad at you. I know just how you feel. I

151
00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:56,160
Speaker 2: died for freedom. Tell everyone on this train, I love them.

152
00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:00,240
Speaker 1: I'm not mad at you. I'm not mad at you.

153
00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,840
Speaker 1: I know just how you feel. I'm not mad at you.

154
00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:12,160
Speaker 2: Their words, all of them, the last words of people

155
00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,760
Speaker 2: killed by Nazis and klansmen and agents of the state

156
00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,920
Speaker 2: who served the same ends as those Nazis and those clansmen,

157
00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:23,440
Speaker 2: were drowning out my own thoughts. And I was reading

158
00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:25,959
Speaker 2: and writing and trying to do my silly little job,

159
00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,040
Speaker 2: trying to think my own thoughts. But I couldn't hear

160
00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,280
Speaker 2: my own thoughts over the sound of the blood pounding

161
00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:37,240
Speaker 2: in my head. And it sounded like Renee Good. It

162
00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:38,680
Speaker 2: sounded like Michael Schwerner.

163
00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:40,160
Speaker 3: It sounded like.

164
00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:44,440
Speaker 2: Delesian and Margaret and Ricky and Viola and Heather Higher

165
00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:48,079
Speaker 2: and so many people who woke up on a day

166
00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,920
Speaker 2: they didn't know as their last, and they did something brave,

167
00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:58,280
Speaker 2: not because they were angry or violent, but because they

168
00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,520
Speaker 2: loved the very idea of love so much.

169
00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:05,680
Speaker 1: And I didn't write a word that day.

170
00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:11,960
Speaker 2: On Saturday night, I was sitting in my office with

171
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,240
Speaker 2: a book in my lap and thirty eight browser tabs

172
00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,120
Speaker 2: open on my computer, still trying to figure out how

173
00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,400
Speaker 2: I'm going to write six thousand words about anything this week.

174
00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,280
Speaker 2: And I saw a video of a vigil for Renee

175
00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,319
Speaker 2: Good held on a rainy Friday evening in New Hampshire.

176
00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:33,559
Speaker 2: Rob Hirschfeld, the Bishop of the Episcopal Church of New Hampshire,

177
00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,200
Speaker 2: must have spent the day hearing the same inescapable litany

178
00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,520
Speaker 2: of names that was pounding in my own head, because

179
00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:44,600
Speaker 2: he reminded the crowd in New Hampshire of Jonathan Daniels,

180
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,280
Speaker 2: a New Hampshire native who died in a corner store

181
00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,560
Speaker 2: in a tiny town outside Montgomery, Alabama, in August of

182
00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:56,679
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty five. Daniels was a seminarian, still a year

183
00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,480
Speaker 2: away from finishing his studies before he could pursue ordination,

184
00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,120
Speaker 2: and he'd spent the spring semester of nineteen sixty five

185
00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:07,439
Speaker 2: working in Selma, Alabama. He returned to Alabama during his

186
00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:12,200
Speaker 2: summer break that year to register voters, tutor children, and

187
00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:16,320
Speaker 2: help black families get to church. He went back to

188
00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,120
Speaker 2: Alabama that summer to do what he felt God had

189
00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:24,600
Speaker 2: called him to. When the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee staged

190
00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,160
Speaker 2: a protest outside of a whites only department store in

191
00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:31,080
Speaker 2: Fort Deposit, Alabama. He was one of thirty protesters who

192
00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,560
Speaker 2: were arrested. After six days in jail. The whole group

193
00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,600
Speaker 2: was released, but they were left stranded in the middle

194
00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:42,760
Speaker 2: of nowhere. While they were waiting there for the ride

195
00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,240
Speaker 2: back to town, the group decided to send a small delegation

196
00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,960
Speaker 2: to a nearby corner store to buy some cold sodas

197
00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,480
Speaker 2: they'd all spent six days sweating in an Alabama jail

198
00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:56,040
Speaker 2: and this was one of the only stores in the

199
00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:00,880
Speaker 2: area that would serve black customers. Jonathan Daniels and father

200
00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,600
Speaker 2: Richard Morris Row walked to the store with Joyce Bailey

201
00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:08,200
Speaker 2: and Ruby Sales, two black teenage girls, both activists with

202
00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:14,320
Speaker 2: the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. Ruby Sales, just seventeen years

203
00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:20,040
Speaker 2: old that summer, reached the door first. She recalled that

204
00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,480
Speaker 2: afternoon in an interview for a PBS documentary two decades later.

205
00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:31,360
Speaker 4: And so when we got to the store, as we

206
00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:37,240
Speaker 4: approached a store and began to go up the steps,

207
00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,960
Speaker 4: suddenly standing there was Tom Coleman that at that time

208
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,600
Speaker 4: I didn't know his name. I found that out later,

209
00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:51,880
Speaker 4: and I recognized that he had a shotgun, and I

210
00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:56,720
Speaker 4: recognized that he was yelling something about black bitches. But

211
00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,960
Speaker 4: in some real ways, with that confrontation, my mind kind

212
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:05,520
Speaker 4: of blinked, and I wasn't processing all that was happening.

213
00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,760
Speaker 4: And so as I was trying to process the meaning

214
00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,560
Speaker 4: of this, suddenly I fell a tug because I was

215
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,640
Speaker 4: in front and Jonathan was behind me, and I fell

216
00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,440
Speaker 4: a tug and someone and the next thing I knew,

217
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:24,160
Speaker 4: there was this blast and I had fallen down, and

218
00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,840
Speaker 4: I remember thinking, God, this is what it feels like

219
00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:33,800
Speaker 4: to be dead. I thought I was dead, And just

220
00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,440
Speaker 4: as I was trying to sort of deal with being dead,

221
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:41,280
Speaker 4: I heard another shot go off.

222
00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:45,920
Speaker 1: But she wasn't dead.

223
00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:49,800
Speaker 2: The shot Ruby heard as she was lying on the

224
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:53,960
Speaker 2: ground contemplating her own apparent death was meant for Joyce,

225
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,280
Speaker 2: but Father Morris Row had wrapped himself around her as

226
00:14:58,280 --> 00:14:59,040
Speaker 2: he turned to run.

227
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:02,200
Speaker 1: Only Joyce got away.

228
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,000
Speaker 2: The priest was shot in the back, leaving him unable

229
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:11,440
Speaker 2: to walk for several years. The first blast from the

230
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:17,120
Speaker 2: deputy's shotgun, the one aimed straight at Ruby, hadn't touched her.

231
00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,720
Speaker 2: The tug, she felt. The force that knocked her to

232
00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,200
Speaker 2: the ground, where she now lay covered in blood, had

233
00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:28,040
Speaker 2: been Jonathan Daniels pushing her out of the way, and

234
00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:33,640
Speaker 2: the blood pooling around her was his. He'd taken the

235
00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,640
Speaker 2: full force of the shotgun blast point blank, killing him instantly.

236
00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,320
Speaker 2: In the video of that rainy vigil in New Hampshire,

237
00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,960
Speaker 2: Bishop Hirschfeld shared the story of Jonathan Daniel's death to

238
00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:52,960
Speaker 2: make it inescapably clear how serious he was as a

239
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,480
Speaker 2: man of the cloth. Thoughts and prayers are sort of

240
00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,960
Speaker 2: his stock in trade. At a vigil like that one,

241
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,440
Speaker 2: that's all anyone really expects of him. His thoughts and

242
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,560
Speaker 2: his prayers, that's all anyone really has to offer after

243
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:12,800
Speaker 2: a tragedy. But the Bishop opened his remarks by wondering

244
00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:18,840
Speaker 2: whether the time for eloquent words had passed. Thoughts and

245
00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:24,560
Speaker 2: prayers are beautiful, but they aren't moving the needle. Jonathan

246
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,360
Speaker 2: Daniels didn't fight for civil rights with a strongly worded

247
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,200
Speaker 2: letter or a signature on a petition, or a beautiful

248
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:34,120
Speaker 2: sermon from the pulpit. He pressed his body into the

249
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:35,320
Speaker 2: barrel of a shotgun.

250
00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,760
Speaker 5: I have told the clergy of the Episcopal Dioceis of

251
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:49,440
Speaker 5: New Hampshire that we may be entering into that same witness,

252
00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,600
Speaker 5: and I've asked them to get their affairs in order.

253
00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:01,240
Speaker 6: To make sure they have their wills written, because it

254
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:05,320
Speaker 6: may be that now is no longer the time for statements,

255
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:12,600
Speaker 6: but for us, with our bodies, to stand between the

256
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,639
Speaker 6: powers of this world and the most vulnerable.

257
00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,040
Speaker 2: I watched that video on Saturday night, and I thought

258
00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:27,840
Speaker 2: about what it means to live in a world where

259
00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,000
Speaker 2: his words are frightening and comforting to me an equal measure.

260
00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,280
Speaker 2: I hope the clergy of the Episcopal Diocese of New

261
00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:39,400
Speaker 2: Hampshire don't die the way Jonathan Daniels died. But more

262
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,560
Speaker 2: than that, I wish we did not live in a

263
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,600
Speaker 2: world where a shotgun is pointed.

264
00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,520
Speaker 1: At a child. But we do, and they might.

265
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,280
Speaker 2: And while we try to untangle the factors that led

266
00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:51,760
Speaker 2: to the loaded gun aimed the most vulnerable among us,

267
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,280
Speaker 2: maybe the best we can hope for is the courage

268
00:17:55,320 --> 00:18:00,359
Speaker 2: to absorb some of that pain. I woke up Sday

269
00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:02,160
Speaker 2: morning and the first thing I saw on my phone

270
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,600
Speaker 2: was the news that a synagogue in Mississippi had burned.

271
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:10,359
Speaker 2: Terrible news, the kind of news I will definitely follow

272
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:14,239
Speaker 2: up on eventually. Whoever would do something like that as

273
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,960
Speaker 2: almost certainly the kind of guy I write about or

274
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:17,640
Speaker 2: will one day.

275
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:20,560
Speaker 1: I wasn't quite.

276
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:25,439
Speaker 2: Awake yet, but I recognized the name of the synagogue. Impossible. Really,

277
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,399
Speaker 2: I'm not Jewish, and I've never been to Mississippi, but

278
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:33,080
Speaker 2: beth Is Reel Congregation and Jackson, Mississippi, sounded so familiar

279
00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,800
Speaker 2: because it was bombed by the Klan in nineteen sixty seven.

280
00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,560
Speaker 2: Everything old is new again. There's nothing new.

281
00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:41,160
Speaker 1: Under the sun.

282
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,479
Speaker 2: And I was running out of time to write something

283
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,520
Speaker 2: for this week's episode, and it felt like history was

284
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:51,480
Speaker 2: demanding to be acknowledged. I stared at my computer for

285
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:55,240
Speaker 2: a while, and on Sunday afternoon, I went to a

286
00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:59,160
Speaker 2: vigil for Renee Good. It was held in a little

287
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:04,120
Speaker 2: park downtown. Hundreds of people filled the park, spilling out

288
00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:10,120
Speaker 2: onto the sidewalks. I saw friends and neighbors and strangers,

289
00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:15,360
Speaker 2: babies and strollers and old women pushing walkers. I saw

290
00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:17,879
Speaker 2: the pastor of a church in my neighborhood wearing a

291
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,840
Speaker 2: rainbow scarf and a warm smile. I saw the man

292
00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,240
Speaker 2: running to be my congressman, standing quietly in the crowd,

293
00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:32,720
Speaker 2: not campaigning, just present. People had homemade signs. Some of

294
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,160
Speaker 2: them were impressive works of art, and others were hastily

295
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,359
Speaker 2: repurposed from the last protest. I saw a child wearing

296
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:44,560
Speaker 2: a cardboard box painted white. It was a little ice

297
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:49,639
Speaker 2: cube costume with third graders against ice scrawled on the

298
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,440
Speaker 2: back in pink marker. And I saw an older woman

299
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,600
Speaker 2: carrying a single sheet of plain printer paper with a

300
00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,480
Speaker 2: phrase written on it in a black marker. It said,

301
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:08,400
Speaker 2: you can't kill us all. That's what one of Renee's

302
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,440
Speaker 2: neighbors shouted at the ice agents, trying to chase off

303
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,520
Speaker 2: the crowd that gathered at the scene after she was

304
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,680
Speaker 2: shot and killed. Instead of running away from the sound

305
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:23,000
Speaker 2: of gunfire, a crowd formed, bearing witness and demanding justice.

306
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:28,080
Speaker 2: Before her body was even cold. They had just witnessed

307
00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:34,200
Speaker 2: an execution, and their answer was you can't kill us All.

308
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:41,960
Speaker 2: Those words spoken by an ordinary person in an extraordinary circumstance,

309
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,480
Speaker 2: traveled halfway across the country to be there on that sign,

310
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:50,720
Speaker 2: a sign carried by another entirely ordinary person, an ordinary

311
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:55,520
Speaker 2: person who recognizes that she too, now finds herself in

312
00:20:55,560 --> 00:21:02,040
Speaker 2: an extraordinary circumstance. Normally I make careful notes of what

313
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:07,240
Speaker 2: was said and who spoke. But I just paced, walking

314
00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 2: laps around that two hundred square foot patch of grass,

315
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,800
Speaker 2: feeling like the weight of history would crush us all.

316
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,680
Speaker 2: Walking home afterwards, I knew I wouldn't write another word

317
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:23,240
Speaker 2: that day. I don't have to walk down Fourth Street

318
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:27,920
Speaker 2: to get home, but I always do. It's been almost

319
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,359
Speaker 2: nine years since a woman I never met was killed there.

320
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,239
Speaker 2: There's a purple bow tied around the post holding up

321
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 2: a no parking sign. Closest to the spot where she died.

322
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 2: The brick wall of the neighboring office building is covered

323
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:46,119
Speaker 2: in chalk messages. I guess it's mostly sheltered from the

324
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 2: rain somehow, because it isn't derotating changing set of messages.

325
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:55,159
Speaker 2: It's a monument. Maybe it's never rained at an angle

326
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,119
Speaker 2: in that narrow street. I don't understand it. There are

327
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,439
Speaker 2: thousands of little men messages scrawled on the walls on

328
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:05,720
Speaker 2: either side of Fourth Street, but the biggest one reads.

329
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 1: Gone but not forgotten. And I know that.

330
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,240
Speaker 2: One's been untouched for at least eight years.

331
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:14,560
Speaker 1: Maybe it's older than that.

332
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,200
Speaker 2: But the first time I remember seeing it was when

333
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 2: I stopped by on her birthday, May twenty ninth, twenty eighteen.

334
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 2: Heather Hier would have been thirty three that day if

335
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:43,439
Speaker 2: she hadn't been dead for a year. So after the

336
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,400
Speaker 2: vigil for Renee Good, I stopped on the street where

337
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,119
Speaker 2: Heather Higher was killed, and I stood in the street

338
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 2: where she died with tears in my eyes.

339
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 1: Until a car came.

340
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 2: And then I remembered that we all still have to

341
00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:01,159
Speaker 2: live in the world and go about our business. So

342
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 2: what I mean to say is, as I'm writing this,

343
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 2: it's Monday. I do most of my writing on Mondays.

344
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 2: It's a bad habit, but usually when I'm writing on Monday,

345
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 2: I've spent all week researching and taking notes, and I

346
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 2: kind of have an idea what the words will be.

347
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 2: But I woke up this morning and I started over.

348
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 2: Because every time I sat down to research and take

349
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 2: notes and plot out the story I was supposed to

350
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:35,399
Speaker 2: write this week, I cried. I cried for Renee and

351
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,479
Speaker 2: for Heather, and for Michael Schwerner and James Cheney and

352
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 2: Andrew Goodman and Mayola Luso and Talisian and Ricky and

353
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 2: Margaret and Jonathan, and for all the martyrs of the

354
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 2: struggle for freedom whose stories we don't know, not yet.

355
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 2: I couldn't write a regular episode of my show because

356
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:57,159
Speaker 2: my heart demanded something else. I know this isn't a

357
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 2: serious job. I make an entertainment product. I'm a journalist

358
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 2: and a researcher, and I take my work very seriously.

359
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 2: But I'm not delusional. This is a podcast. It's in

360
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,360
Speaker 2: your ear on your way to work, while you wash dishes,

361
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 2: walk your dog. But if I didn't believe just a

362
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 2: little bit this was important, I would have given up

363
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 2: by now. I wouldn't work this hard to write these

364
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 2: stories if I didn't think there was some value in

365
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 2: understanding the history of writing political violence, in fitting those

366
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,959
Speaker 2: pieces together to show the connections between these allegedly isolated,

367
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:42,920
Speaker 2: random acts of violence. As bewildering and terrifying and overwhelming

368
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 2: as things seem right now, I want to help you

369
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 2: see that these are not unprecedented times.

370
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 1: They are, in fact, very.

371
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 2: Precedented, and the precedents are pretty dark, but there are

372
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 2: things we can learn from the past, and there's comfort

373
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 2: in knowing we aren't the first ones to walk into

374
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 2: this darkness. So I didn't write the story I promised

375
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 2: you last week. And I can't tell you anything you

376
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 2: don't already know about what's in the news today. But

377
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 2: I can tell you a little bit about a story

378
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 2: that rhymes. I can tell you about the day Viola

379
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 2: le Uso died. On March twenty fifth, nineteen sixty five,

380
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 2: marchers poured into Montgomery, Alabama. The front of the march

381
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 2: reached the capitol steps around noon, but the crowd of

382
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 2: more than twenty five thousand stretched out over two miles long,

383
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 2: and the end of the march didn't arrive until more

384
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,880
Speaker 2: than an hour later. A program from the event lists

385
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 2: more than a dozen speakers. There were speakers from the

386
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 2: Southern Christian Leadership Conference, the Congress for Racial Equality, the NAACP.

387
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 2: John Lewis spoke on behalf of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee.

388
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 2: Nobel Peace Prize winner and New and Under Secretary General

389
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 2: Ralph Bunch gave a speech. A Philip Randolph spoke the

390
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 2: march from Selma to Montgomery had been hard fought. It

391
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 2: took nineteen days to cross those fifty four miles. On

392
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 2: the first attempt, the march didn't even make it out

393
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 2: of Selma. It ended the very day it began, a

394
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 2: day that quickly became known as Bloody Sunday. Dozens of

395
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,880
Speaker 2: marchers were injured and seventeen were hospitalized after brutal beatings

396
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 2: from the police waiting for them on the other side

397
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 2: of the Edmund Pettis Bridge. The second attempt was quickly

398
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:45,199
Speaker 2: foiled by a court injunction. Hours after the march was

399
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 2: called off, a white mob attacked three Unitarian ministers who

400
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 2: were in town for the march. James Reeb died from

401
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 2: his injuries. By the time the march to Montgomery started

402
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 2: for the third time, the stakes were clear. A minister

403
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 2: had been beaten to death. The chairman of the Student

404
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 2: on Violent Coordinating Committee had been struck over the head

405
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 2: with a billy club, fracturing a skull. They'd been beaten

406
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 2: and tearcass and run down with horses and dogs. They

407
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 2: knew they would face violence, they understood they may face death.

408
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 2: And when they finally reached Montgomery, the main event that

409
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 2: afternoon was a speech from doctor Martin.

410
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: Luther King Junior. You may not know this one, at

411
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: least not as well as you know.

412
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 2: Famous speech is like I have a dream from the

413
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 2: march on Washington, or I've been to the mountaintop from

414
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 2: the Memphis sanitation worker strike. But I think you know

415
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 2: one of the final lines of this speech.

416
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 7: I contemplated this afternoon. I have a difficult moment. I

417
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 7: have a substrate in Vialla it will not be, because

418
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 7: truth pressures will rise again. A long not long it

419
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 7: cause no lie can near frail. A long not law alone.

420
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 7: It calls you shall read what your soul A long

421
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 7: way on the scaffold, long way up on the thing

422
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 7: that's just that scaffold, sway the future behind the dim

423
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 7: unknown standard, God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own.

424
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 4: A long not law of the moral.

425
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 7: Universe is long, but it ben towards the outside.

426
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 2: The art of the moral universe is long, but it

427
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 2: bends towards justice. That's one of doctor King's more famous lines.

428
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 2: And I think there's a reason I've only ever heard

429
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 2: it out of context. Why I never really thought about

430
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 2: it having been spoken on the afternoon of March twenty fifth,

431
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty five, from the steps of the Capitol Building

432
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 2: in Montgomery, Alabama, flanked on either side by civil rights

433
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 2: activists with fresh bruises on their faces. When you neatly

434
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 2: cut around those words and you lift them out of

435
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 2: that speech, carving away the context of the bloody fifty

436
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 2: four miles between Selma and Montgomery, you might think moral

437
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 2: arcs just spend that way, that the natural shape of

438
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 2: such an ark just tends to angle in the direction

439
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 2: of justice, that if you wait patiently, that gentle curve

440
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,959
Speaker 2: will end, and there at its tip will be justice.

441
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 2: But the moral arc of the universe doesn't bent.

442
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: It is bent.

443
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 2: It is pushed and pled and molded and hammered and kneaded,

444
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 2: and it disgreased with our blood.

445
00:29:58,400 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 1: It doesn't bent.

446
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 2: We have to bend it. It is not enough to

447
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 2: observe its shape. You have to throw your body against it.

448
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 2: You have to look back at that long arc and

449
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 2: remember who toiled and struggled and cried and bled before you.

450
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 2: That arc bends because you were not the first person

451
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 2: who wished that it did, because we are not the

452
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 2: first generation to put our shoulder to it and push.

453
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: Viola Luzo knew that.

454
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 2: She was there that afternoon in Montgomery. She heard doctor

455
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 2: King give that speech just a few hours before she died. Now,

456
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 2: normally I would have at least skimmed most of the

457
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 2: biographies that have been written about her. There are a

458
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 2: couple books about her life, and I would try to

459
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 2: sort of suss out the angle that each of the

460
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 2: authors was approaching the story with and cross reference the

461
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 2: details that didn't quite match with newspaper articles and interviews

462
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 2: with people who were there. That's my normal approach. Normally

463
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 2: I work on an episode all week. As I said,

464
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 2: I started this morning, so he didn't quite have time

465
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 2: for the normal process. So forgive me if her life

466
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 2: story is a little lighter on the details. What I

467
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 2: did read, though, was the chapter on Viola written in

468
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 2: a book by Reverend Jack Mendelssohn. He published a book

469
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 2: of stories about civil rights martyrs in nineteen sixty six,

470
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 2: so the interviews he had with people who knew Viola

471
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: were fresh. He was writing this just a few months

472
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 2: after she died, And of course I also read Jay

473
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 2: Edgar Hoover's frantic and furious memos as he cooked up

474
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 2: his smear campaign against this dead mother. Yola was born

475
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 2: in Pennsylvania nineteen twenty five, the daughter of a school

476
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 2: teacher and a coal miner. Her father lost a hand

477
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: in a mining accident during the Great Depression, so the

478
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 2: family relied on income from short term teaching positions. Her

479
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 2: mother took anywhere she could find them. They moved often,

480
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 2: but Viola spent much of her childhood in the South.

481
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 2: At eighteen, she married a much older man, her boss

482
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 2: at the restaurant where she worked. When they divorced six

483
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 2: years later, she kept custody of their two daughters. In

484
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty one, she married Anthony Luzo, a business agent

485
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 2: for Teamsters Local two forty seven, and the couple had

486
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 2: three more children together. After she died, those who wanted

487
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 2: to minimize her death would say that she was mentally ill,

488
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 2: she had a criminal record, she was a bad mother,

489
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 2: she was crazy, and her interest in civil rights was

490
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 2: a recent flight of fancy, perhaps a symptom of her

491
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 2: erratic mind. Now, I would argue that even someone with

492
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 2: a criminal record and a mental illness can have a

493
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 2: firmly held belief in the value of civil rights and

494
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 2: make their own decision to participate in a political protest,

495
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 2: and either way it certainly isn't a reason to kill them.

496
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 2: But in Viola's case, I think the people repeating those

497
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 2: things are being unfair on purpose. I think they know

498
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 2: they're lying. Now, it is kind of true that she

499
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 2: had a criminal record. She'd been cited for failing to

500
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 2: send three of her children to school. In nineteen sixty four,

501
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 2: she kept them home for forty days to protest a

502
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 2: school policy that allowed teenagers to drop out of school.

503
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 2: Without parental permission. I don't fully understand the logic of

504
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 2: the protest, but the cause makes perfect sense. She told

505
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 2: the Detroit Board of Education that she regretted leaving school

506
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 2: at fourteen, and she wished the law had kept her

507
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 2: in school. She believed that requiring children to stay in

508
00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 2: school until eighteen would protect them from being exploded. She

509
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 2: was charged with violating the state school compulsory age law,

510
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:10,240
Speaker 2: the one she was protesting. Years later, her daughter Penny

511
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 2: explained to author Mary Stanton that it wasn't some hysterical,

512
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: unreasonable thing. It was a carefully considered, active protest. She

513
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 2: was trying to get publicity and draw attention to what

514
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 2: she thought was a dangerous law that would hurt children.

515
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 2: A few weeks after her arrest in June of nineteen

516
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 2: sixty four, maybe in an effort to just blow off

517
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: some steam, she took off on an impromptu road trip

518
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 2: without telling her husband. This, coupled with the arrest, provided

519
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 2: the pieces for the narrative that she was irrational and

520
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:52,280
Speaker 2: mentally disturbed. Newspapers seized on this line from an FBI

521
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 2: memo about how she disappeared to Canada and her husband

522
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 2: had to report her missing, but they lived in Michigan.

523
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 2: Canada is just kind of the next town over. It

524
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 2: does appear that her interest in civil rights came on suddenly.

525
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 2: She never brought it up before nineteen sixty four. But

526
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,839
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty four was as good a time as any

527
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 2: for a housewife in Detroit to become interested in the

528
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 2: civil rights movement. She didn't just wake up one day

529
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 2: and drive to Selma. She had been involved in the

530
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 2: Detroit chapter of the NAACP for a year leading up

531
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 2: to her death. Honestly, I think it might be more

532
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 2: unusual for a white housewife in Michigan to be outspoken

533
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 2: about segregation earlier than this.

534
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 1: It makes perfect sense that she.

535
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 2: Would develop an interest in the civil rights movement at

536
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:47,280
Speaker 2: the height of the civil rights movement. I don't understand

537
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 2: why this is meant to be suspicious. It was bloody

538
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 2: Sunday that finally spurred her to greater action. She was

539
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 2: active locally, but the footage of the violence on the

540
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 2: Edmund Pettis Bridge and March of nineteen sixty five was

541
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 2: too much. Her husband recalls the tears streaming down her

542
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 2: face when she saw it on the evening news. When

543
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 2: James Ree was murdered a few days later. She attended

544
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,879
Speaker 2: a memorial service for him at her local Unitarian church.

545
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,320
Speaker 2: Later that week, she marched with a few hundred students

546
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 2: from Wayne State University to show their solidarity with the

547
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:28,800
Speaker 2: marchers in Selma. At that rally, she heard several students

548
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 2: who'd been down in Selma speak about their experiences. They

549
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 2: described the way the deputies laughed and sneered at them

550
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 2: on bloody Sunday, saying those cops were just like the

551
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 2: men who murdered James Reeb, except they'd been deputized by

552
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 2: the state to do it. After that march, she called

553
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 2: her husband. She'd made up her mind and she was

554
00:36:53,080 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 2: going to Selma. That's not unreasonable. That's not something you

555
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 2: would only do if you were on drugs or in

556
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 2: the grips of a serious psychiatric episode. It doesn't even

557
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 2: seem that surprising to me. She wasn't the only person

558
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 2: who did this. She'd been interested in the civil rights

559
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 2: movement for a year. She was involved with the NAACP

560
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 2: and the Unitarian Church. She marched in Detroit in solidarity

561
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 2: with Selma, and she heard the impassioned pleas for help

562
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 2: from the people who'd been there. They wanted more people

563
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,959
Speaker 2: to go back down to Alabama with them to join

564
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 2: the march to Montgomery. So she did, that's not crazy.

565
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 2: I can see myself doing something like that. I think

566
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 2: a lot of us can. It's not your fight, her

567
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:08,240
Speaker 2: husband told her, but she disagreed. She told her family

568
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 2: it's everyone's fight. Viola spent six days in Alabama, the

569
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 2: last six days of her life. She got in touch

570
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 2: with organizers at the Southern Christian Leadership Conference and they

571
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 2: put her to work shuttling people back and forth between

572
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 2: Selma and Montgomery. When the march began, Viola march too.

573
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 2: She walked across the Edmund Pettis Bridge, just two weeks

574
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 2: after sobbing on the couch at home in Detroit watching

575
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 2: the news of bloody Sunday. The night before the march

576
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 2: reached Montgomery, Biola was volunteering with the medics at Saint

577
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 2: Jude's Catholic Church just outside the city. She spent the

578
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 2: evening gently dressing the bloody feet of marchers who'd walked

579
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 2: barefoot on this pilgrimage. Father Timothy D. C offered her

580
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 2: one of the cots in the church basement. She said

581
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 2: there were people who needed it more than she did,

582
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:08,439
Speaker 2: and she slept alone in her car. On the morning

583
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 2: of March twenty fifth, she asked Father d C if

584
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 2: there was anywhere she could go to get a good.

585
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 1: Look at where they were headed.

586
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 2: So he took her up to the church bell tower,

587
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 2: and together they looked out over the landscape, and they

588
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 2: could see the line of marchers already streaming from Saint

589
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 2: Jude's heading out for the four mile walk to the capitol.

590
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 2: Howl Dec says she got pale and anxious, and she

591
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,399
Speaker 2: turned to him and she said that suddenly she felt

592
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 2: very sure that someone would die that day. But they

593
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 2: prayed together and that seemed to ease her fears. And

594
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 2: as she walked away from Saint Jude's that morning, she

595
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 2: slipped off her shoes so she could make the final

596
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 2: leg of the march into Montgomery barefoot. That evening, she

597
00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: was back at Saint Jude's. Leroy Moten, a local actor

598
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 2: of us she'd been working with all week, took her

599
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 2: car from the church and drove back into Montgomery to

600
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 2: pick up a group of marchers who needed a ride

601
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 2: back to Selma. Biola called her husband and her children

602
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 2: every night during that trip, and this night was no different.

603
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 2: One of her daughters later recalled hearing the sounds of

604
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,240
Speaker 2: celebration in the background when her mom called that last time,

605
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 2: everybody was celebrating the march.

606
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 1: Had been successful.

607
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 2: She must have been calling from Saint Jude's. After the

608
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 2: march was over, but before she got into her car

609
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 2: for the last time, Biola told her husband she'd be

610
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 2: leaving very soon, and she asked him to wire her

611
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,760
Speaker 2: fifty dollars for the trip home. On the way to Selma,

612
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 2: in the car with Leroy Mowten, another car tailgated them aggressively.

613
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,720
Speaker 2: She'd been warned this was a possibility. There were white

614
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 2: men driving around just looking for any car that had

615
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 2: both black and white people in side, particularly cars with

616
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 2: a white woman and a black man. Viola seemed unbothered

617
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,879
Speaker 2: by the tailgating, though, and she joked with Leroy about

618
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:12,959
Speaker 2: how she'd like to come back to visit Alabama again

619
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 2: one day if she didn't get killed. In the meantime,

620
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 2: after they dropped off the first batch of passengers in Selma,

621
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:25,320
Speaker 2: Leroy and Viola took a break for dinner. They ate separately,

622
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 2: but they were both back in Viola's car a little

623
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 2: after seven pm, heading back to Montgomery to pick up

624
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 2: more people who needed rides to Selma. The car full

625
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 2: of klansmen spotted them in a red light near the

626
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 2: Edmund Pettis Bridge. It was clear almost immediately that they

627
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:49,760
Speaker 2: were being followed. FBI informant and klansman Gary Rowe claimed

628
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 2: that she evaded them with surprising speed, getting her oldsmobile

629
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 2: up to ninety miles an hour a few times. During

630
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 2: this twenty minute pursuit. Leroy Moten recalls that she hummed,

631
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 2: we shall overcome as she concentrated on the road, speeding

632
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 2: down the dark highway, trying desperately to make it back

633
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 2: to Montgomery with this carful of white men in hot pursuit.

634
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 2: Roe claims it was klansman Collie Wilkins who fired at

635
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 2: Biola when they finally caught up to her. She was

636
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:29,280
Speaker 2: hit twice in the head. She was almost certainly already

637
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 2: dead when the car skidded into a ditch. Leroy Moten

638
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 2: was injured in the crash, but he'd not been shot.

639
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 2: He ran for three miles before he was picked up

640
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:45,879
Speaker 2: by another vehicle ferrying marchers back to Selma. All four

641
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 2: klansmen from the car were arrested the very next day.

642
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,359
Speaker 2: It was hardly a mystery to the FBI who'd done it.

643
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 2: Gary Rogue called Hiss FBI handler Liter that night.

644
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 1: And told him.

645
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 2: The two later met in a parking lot and the

646
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 2: gun Roe gave his hand that night was never admitted

647
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:06,760
Speaker 2: into evidence. President Lyndon Johnson announced the arrest of Collie Wilkins,

648
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 2: Gary Rowe, William Eaton, and Eugene Thomas on TV the

649
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 2: very next day, but only three of them were charged.

650
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 2: FBI informant Gary Rowe testified against the other three klansmen.

651
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 2: All three of those clansmen were charged with murder by

652
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 2: the state courts in Alabama, and in a separate federal case,

653
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 2: they were indicted on charges of conspiracy to interfere with

654
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 2: civil rights. Those federal charges notably said nothing about murder.

655
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 2: The murder charges were just in the state courts in Alabama,

656
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 2: and a white jury in Alabama wouldn't convict a klansman.

657
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 2: Eaton ultimately died of a heart attack before he faced trial,

658
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 2: but Eugene Thomas was acquitted. Collie Wilkins, the man Row

659
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 2: accused of firing the fatal shot, was tried twice. The

660
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 2: first time, the all white jury voted unanimously against convicting

661
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 2: Wilkins of murder, but they were close to a conviction

662
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 2: on manslaughter.

663
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 1: It was ten to two.

664
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 2: Newspaper reports say the two holdouts that saved Wilkins from

665
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 2: prison told reporters that they just couldn't trust the testimony

666
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 2: of a man like Gary Rowe, not because he was

667
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 2: an admitted paid government informant, but because he was an oathbreaker.

668
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 2: He'd broken the oath he took as a klansman and

669
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 2: as klansmen themselves. That's something they took very seriously.

670
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 1: Wilkins got a hung jury the first.

671
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,360
Speaker 2: Time around, and he was outright acquitted when they tried again.

672
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 2: When it came time to testify against his friends in

673
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 2: the federal trials, Roe was playing hard to get. I

674
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 2: don't know what was going on in his head, but

675
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,359
Speaker 2: maybe he knew he had the FBI over a barrel here.

676
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,720
Speaker 2: With the state murder trials ending without convictions, the federal

677
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 2: civil rights trial was the only way to lock anyone

678
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 2: up for this murder. They had put an FBI informant

679
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 2: on the stand to testify that he was there when

680
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 2: it happened. So it would be awfully shameful if everybody walked.

681
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: In November of.

682
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 2: Nineteen sixty five, a series of increasingly frantic FBI memos

683
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 2: sent directly to j Edgar Hoover outlined the problem. Gary

684
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 2: Rowe wanted more money, a lot of it. He wanted

685
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 2: thousands of dollars of debt paid off, unpaid alimony to

686
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 2: his wife, overdue power bills, months of delinquent rent on

687
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 2: his apartment, a few thousand for a failed business venture.

688
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 2: Pretty typical kinds of debts. But three grand and unpaid

689
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 2: bills in nineteen sixty five is more like thirty thousand

690
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 2: dollars today. Roe was in deep but when they put

691
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 2: him on the stand, they would have to admit that

692
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 2: he was a paid informant, which makes the records of

693
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 2: any payments made to him for that work relevant evidence

694
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 2: that they would have to produce. And it wouldn't look

695
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,240
Speaker 2: great if they paid him thousands of dollars right before

696
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 2: a trial. And he didn't just want money. He wanted

697
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 2: a new life. He wanted to be relocated with his family.

698
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 2: He wanted the government to promise him not only that

699
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 2: he'd never be prosecuted for anything ever, but they'd never

700
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,760
Speaker 2: make him testify again about anything.

701
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 1: Never.

702
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 2: As the trial date approached, the memos got weirder. In

703
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 2: late November, his handler described him as highly emotional, distraught,

704
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 2: and tearful during a meeting. He'd previously agreed to testify,

705
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 2: but now he's trying to back out, saying he felt

706
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 2: let down by the FBI and he no longer trusts

707
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 2: his handler. He alternated between saying that maybe they wouldn't

708
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 2: even want him to testify because he couldn't guarantee that

709
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,280
Speaker 2: what he was going to say would be helpful, almost

710
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 2: implying that he planned to lie. And then he said

711
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 2: he just wouldn't go, that they'd have to subpoena him,

712
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 2: and even then they'd have to use physical force if

713
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 2: they wanted to get him back into a courtroom in Alabama.

714
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 1: And then he started bargaining again.

715
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 2: If the government could make him a series of promises,

716
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 2: he'd do it, but they had to promise that he

717
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 2: would never have to testify again, not about anything, not ever,

718
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 2: and he wanted a massive severance. He wanted his entire

719
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 2: family relocated, including his elderly parents, which would mean that

720
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 2: his father would have to be financially compensated for the

721
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:41,880
Speaker 2: loss of employment that relocation would cause. Had It went

722
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 2: on and on, and some of them were pretty absurd,

723
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 2: But one thing he wouldn't budge on was he wanted

724
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 2: a job. Specifically, he demanded that the FBI get him

725
00:47:54,600 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 2: a job as a Border Patrol agent. In the end,

726
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 2: he got almost everything he asked for. After the three

727
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 2: clansmen were convicted on the federal civil rights charge, the

728
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 2: FBI paid Gary row ten thousand dollars, the equivalent of

729
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 2: over one hundred thousand dollars to day. He was given

730
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 2: a new identity and a job. He didn't quite get

731
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 2: his dream job with the Border Patrol, but he worked

732
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 2: for some time.

733
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:26,800
Speaker 1: As a U. S Marshal.

734
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 2: A decade later, when Wilkins and Thomas were finally out

735
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 2: of prison, they went on a national news program to

736
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 2: accuse Gary Rowe of being the real trigger man. They

737
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 2: both passed polygraph exams or whatever that's worth to you,

738
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 2: and additional witnesses came forward, including two policemen who testified

739
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 2: before a grand jury that Roe had bragged about being

740
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 2: the one to kill Liuzou. The prosecution was halted by

741
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 2: a federal injunction. He'd been granted immunity. It didn't matter

742
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 2: how many witnesses came forward and gave sworn testimony that

743
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 2: they knew for a fact that he was the killer,

744
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:10,800
Speaker 2: that they saw him do it, that there was evidence

745
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 2: that he'd done it, that he admitted to them that

746
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 2: he'd done it, that he bragged about it.

747
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:16,240
Speaker 1: It didn't matter.

748
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 2: The FBI had given him complete and total immunity in

749
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 2: exchange for the testimony he gave that put three other

750
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 2: men in prison for a murder that he at the

751
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 2: very least participated in. The gun he gave his FBI

752
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,760
Speaker 2: handler the night of the murder was never examined as evidence,

753
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 2: and the FBI had every reason to cover up the

754
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:41,760
Speaker 2: possibility that they'd paid thousands of dollars to a murderer.

755
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:46,279
Speaker 2: It wouldn't be the first time they'd done it or

756
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 2: the last. So to distract from the involvement of a

757
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:56,800
Speaker 2: federal informant with a documented history of violence, the FBI

758
00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 2: dragged the.

759
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 1: Victim through the mud.

760
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,360
Speaker 2: They played up her arest record and called her a

761
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 2: terrible mother. They drew up an FBI memo claiming that

762
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:08,320
Speaker 2: an examination of the body revealed needle marks on her arms,

763
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 2: and then they intentionally leaked the fake memo to the press,

764
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 2: never mind that the actual autopsy report made no such

765
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 2: finding and there were no drugs in her system. Her

766
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 2: husband and children were harassed, a cross was burned in

767
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 2: their yard in Detroit the week of her funeral, and

768
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:30,359
Speaker 2: they reported receiving obscene phone calls for months. If Hoover

769
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 2: had his way, Biola Luzo would not be memorialized as

770
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 2: a loving mother who felt moved to fight for civil rights.

771
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,800
Speaker 2: She'd be shamed as a lunatic who abandoned her children,

772
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 2: shot up heroin, and had adulterous inner racial sex, and

773
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:50,360
Speaker 2: then was quickly forgotten. The clan killed Biola Luzo, but

774
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 2: the FBI tried to kill her memory. And it's really

775
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 2: the same as it ever was. As I'm writing this,

776
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 2: I just saw New York Times headline from today, Monday,

777
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:06,280
Speaker 2: January twelfth, twenty twenty six. FBI inquiry into Ice shooting

778
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 2: is examining victims possible ties to activist groups. They're investigating

779
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 2: the victim because they already know everything they need to

780
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 2: know about the killer.

781
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 1: He's on their payroll. If you've been to a.

782
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 2: Protest anytime in the last fifty years or so you've

783
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:29,760
Speaker 2: heard this chant.

784
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 7: Think cop, thinkin non im, thinkin hend then hard.

785
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 2: I think plank no man. Cops and clan go hand

786
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 2: in hand. The earliest mention of that exact phrase being

787
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 2: used as a protest chant that I could find was

788
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 2: in a newspaper article from nineteen seventy six. But I

789
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 2: really only spend a few minutes looking, and I'm certain

790
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:07,479
Speaker 2: it predates the late seventies. I'm sure it was something

791
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 2: Black Southerners said quietly to one another for a long

792
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 2: time before it was ever chanted at a protest.

793
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 1: But what does it mean.

794
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:21,440
Speaker 2: I've heard it chanted at local cops, sheriff's deputies, state police,

795
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 2: National guardsmen. I've heard it at clan rallies and school

796
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 2: board meetings. I've shouted at myself with lips that burned

797
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:31,240
Speaker 2: with the taste of pepper spray.

798
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:34,439
Speaker 1: But what does it mean?

799
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 2: I never really gave it a lot of thought. It's

800
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 2: just one of those things that makes perfect sense to

801
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 2: me and doesn't merit further consideration. But it could mean

802
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:45,359
Speaker 2: a lot of things.

803
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just an.

804
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 2: Abbreviated way of expressing that law enforcement and organized white

805
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:57,359
Speaker 2: supremacist groups that engage in extra judicial violence exist along

806
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 2: a spectrum of racial violence, meeting out that violence on

807
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 2: subjugated groups with varying degrees of legitimacy and public approval.

808
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:08,720
Speaker 2: Or maybe it's meant to be commentary on the historical

809
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 2: evolution of modern policing and the way that it grew

810
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 2: out of Antebellum slave patrols, thus quite literally positioning cops

811
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 2: as the modern successor to groups of violent racist vigilantes.

812
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 2: I've been an actual clan rallies where it seems to

813
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:25,760
Speaker 2: be a cry of frustration that the police are clearly

814
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:28,880
Speaker 2: serving and protecting the interests of the actual clan at

815
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 2: the expense of the community, and in ways that result

816
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:35,439
Speaker 2: in violence towards those who oppose the clan. Or maybe

817
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,839
Speaker 2: it's even further removed from the words themselves. Maybe it's

818
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 2: a metonomy where cops refers to the state in general,

819
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:46,800
Speaker 2: and clan is any sort of extra judicial enforcement mechanism

820
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 2: of the darker whims of that state. That's probably broad

821
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 2: enough to hold all possible meanings. Maybe it's all of

822
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 2: those things or none of them, but it doesn't actually

823
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 2: matter because it's literal. It's not a metaphor, it's not hyperbole.

824
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:08,400
Speaker 2: It's not taking liberties. It's not a joke. It is

825
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:15,760
Speaker 2: the literal, factual, historical truth. Cops and clan do indeed

826
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 2: go hand in hand. When Caesar cow said, James Waller,

827
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:23,279
Speaker 2: William Evan Simpson, Sandra Nilie Smith, and Michael Nathan were

828
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 2: gunned down in the streets of Greensboro, North Carolina, there

829
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 2: was a police informant in the car with the klansmen

830
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 2: and the Nazis who shot them, And there was a

831
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 2: police informant at the clan meetings where their murders were planned.

832
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 2: When Yola Luza was shot in the head in Selma, Alabama,

833
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 2: there was an FBI informant in the car with the

834
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,279
Speaker 2: clansmen who killed her. When the Birmingham police found out

835
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 2: the Freedom Riders were coming in nineteen sixty one, they

836
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:47,879
Speaker 2: conspired with the clan to attack buses full of civil

837
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 2: rights activists. Bull Connor told the clan they had fifteen

838
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:55,360
Speaker 2: minutes of free reign. A police captain told the clansmen

839
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:58,719
Speaker 2: on the FBI's payroll, you can beat them, bomb them,

840
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:01,399
Speaker 2: Maimon kill I don't give a shit.

841
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 1: There will be absolutely no arrests.

842
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,400
Speaker 2: And the FBI knew, and the FBI didn't stop it.

843
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 2: They didn't warn anyone about what was coming. When the

844
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 2: mob of klansmen firebombed those buses and beat the fleeing

845
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 2: passengers with pipes and bats and chains, it was the

846
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 2: FBI informant himself leading the mob. When Michael Schwerner, James Cheney,

847
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 2: Andrew Goodman were killed in Nishaba County, Mississippi, it was

848
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:29,280
Speaker 2: a lynching coordinated and planned by local police who discussed

849
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:31,359
Speaker 2: the plan not at their police station, but at their

850
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 2: clan meetings. When the clansmen who murdered four little girls

851
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 2: in a church basement in Birmingham was finally prosecuted, he

852
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 2: went to his grave insisting that he'd only purchased that

853
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 2: dynamite and it was his friend, the FBI informant, who

854
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 2: placed it beneath the steps at the sixteenth Street Baptist Church,

855
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:50,319
Speaker 2: killing Addie May Collin, Cynthia Wesley, Carroll Robertson, and Carroll

856
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 2: to niece McNair. He was never made to answer for

857
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 2: that accusation, but he was the same FBI informant who

858
00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 2: later admitted to murdering a black man whose name he

859
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 2: couldn't even remember. When klansmen rioted in Myrtle Beach in

860
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty, and one of their own was killed by

861
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:08,280
Speaker 2: friendly fire as that crowd of masked races fired hundreds

862
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 2: of bullets into a black owned bar. They took their

863
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 2: fallen brother to the hospital, and when they stripped the

864
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 2: white robe off his dead body, he was still wearing

865
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:21,959
Speaker 2: his policeman's uniform underneath. For decades, the federal government paid

866
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 2: klansmen to do their dirty work. They've used klansmen and

867
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:28,320
Speaker 2: neo Nazis and right wing extremists of all stripes to

868
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:34,400
Speaker 2: disrupt progressive movements. They've ignored credible intelligence about murders and

869
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 2: bombings they could have stopped, and they looked the other

870
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 2: way when their informants participated in violence against people they

871
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 2: thought posed a greater threat to the status quo. And

872
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 2: they've always thought liberty, equality, freedom, tolerance, diversity, and civil

873
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:53,360
Speaker 2: rights were far more threatening than bombs in church basements

874
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:55,240
Speaker 2: and lynchings on dark, abandoned highways.

875
00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 1: The comps the clan have.

876
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 2: Always worked hand in hand to share the burden of

877
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:08,239
Speaker 2: violently enforcing white supremacy, whether the klansman's FBI checks or

878
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:10,680
Speaker 2: off the books, or the fascist foot soldier is getting

879
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:13,200
Speaker 2: a W two from DHS. The violence is the same,

880
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 2: the goal is the same. They're doing what they've always done,

881
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 2: and so will we. I don't know exactly how long

882
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 2: this moral arc of the universe is, but never forget

883
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:29,600
Speaker 2: you aren't the first to throw your shoulder into it,

884
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 2: determined to see it bent towards justice.

885
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 1: Read Little Guys as a production of Cool Zone Media

886
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:55,800
Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. It's researched, written and recorded by me Molly Conger.

887
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,400
Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Sophie Lichterman and Robert Evans. The

888
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 1: show is at a by the wildly talented Rory Gagan.

889
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 1: The theme music was composed by Brad Dickert.

890
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:06,720
Speaker 2: You can email me at Weird Little Guys podcast at

891
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 2: gmail dot com. I will definitely read it, but I

892
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 2: probably won't answer.

893
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 1: It's nothing personal.

894
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 2: You can exchange conspiracy theories about the show with other

895
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:17,400
Speaker 2: listeners on the Weird Little Guys Subreddy. Just don't post

896
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 2: anything that's going to make you one of my Weird

897
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 2: Little Guys.