1 00:00:15,526 --> 00:00:15,926 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:21,316 --> 00:00:23,976 Speaker 2: It seems like every week there's another big headline about 3 00:00:24,036 --> 00:00:28,516 Speaker 2: artificial intelligence. AI chatbots are becoming our friends, our co-workers, 4 00:00:28,776 --> 00:00:32,176 Speaker 2: and our confidants. Companies are racing to put AI assistance 5 00:00:32,236 --> 00:00:35,066 Speaker 2: into everything we interact with, from our cars to our 6 00:00:35,106 --> 00:00:38,506 Speaker 2: kitchen appliances. And lawmakers are scrambling to figure out how 7 00:00:38,546 --> 00:00:40,946 Speaker 2: to think through all these changes and how to protect 8 00:00:40,966 --> 00:00:44,566 Speaker 2: their constituents from the potential harms of this rapidly evolving technology. 9 00:00:45,396 --> 00:00:48,086 Speaker 2: For me, it all feels like it's happening really fast, 10 00:00:48,506 --> 00:00:49,756 Speaker 2: and it's hard to know what to make of it. 11 00:00:50,266 --> 00:00:52,526 Speaker 2: Can we harness the benefits of AI without putting our 12 00:00:52,566 --> 00:00:55,326 Speaker 2: well-being at serious risk? And what, if anything, have we 13 00:00:55,366 --> 00:00:58,096 Speaker 2: learned from our mistakes with other technologies from the past? 14 00:00:59,116 --> 00:01:01,256 Speaker 2: These are some of the questions I explored at this 15 00:01:01,296 --> 00:01:06,316 Speaker 2: year's South by Southwest EDU, an annual conference focused on innovation, teaching, 16 00:01:06,376 --> 00:01:09,166 Speaker 2: and learning. At the conference, I had a chance to 17 00:01:09,206 --> 00:01:12,656 Speaker 2: sit down with Bruce Reed, head of artificial intelligence initiatives 18 00:01:12,836 --> 00:01:16,116 Speaker 2: at the children's media and technology nonprofit Common Sense Media. 19 00:01:16,956 --> 00:01:20,456 Speaker 2: Bruce was also deputy chief of staff during the Biden administration. 20 00:01:21,136 --> 00:01:23,856 Speaker 2: He's a person that many referred to as the AI whisperer. 21 00:01:24,496 --> 00:01:26,316 Speaker 2: Bruce and I spoke about how to help young people 22 00:01:26,396 --> 00:01:28,516 Speaker 2: navigate the challenges of growing up in the age of 23 00:01:28,676 --> 00:01:31,356 Speaker 2: AI and social media, how to find happiness in a 24 00:01:31,376 --> 00:01:34,166 Speaker 2: world that often feels pretty dark, and why there's more 25 00:01:34,226 --> 00:01:37,146 Speaker 2: reasons to be hopeful than you might think. And today, 26 00:01:37,176 --> 00:01:39,856 Speaker 2: I decided to share that discussion with you as part 27 00:01:39,876 --> 00:01:42,776 Speaker 2: of our series of Happiness Lab Live conversations from the 28 00:01:42,796 --> 00:01:43,256 Speaker 2: past year. 29 00:01:43,796 --> 00:01:44,556 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy it. 30 00:01:48,976 --> 00:01:50,626 Speaker 2: Our minds are constantly telling us what to do to 31 00:01:50,666 --> 00:01:53,166 Speaker 2: be happy. But what if our minds are wrong? What 32 00:01:53,206 --> 00:01:55,666 Speaker 2: if our minds are lying to us, leading us away 33 00:01:55,726 --> 00:01:58,306 Speaker 2: from what will really make us happy? The good news 34 00:01:58,486 --> 00:02:00,446 Speaker 2: is that understanding the science of the mind can point 35 00:02:00,506 --> 00:02:03,666 Speaker 2: us all back in the right direction. You're listening to 36 00:02:03,686 --> 00:02:05,126 Speaker 2: The Happiness Lab with Dr. 37 00:02:05,176 --> 00:02:05,786 Speaker 1: Laurie Santos. 38 00:02:08,696 --> 00:02:11,956 Speaker 2: This time coming to you live from South by Southwest EDU. 39 00:02:14,676 --> 00:02:16,596 Speaker 2: We are so excited to have a packed room for 40 00:02:16,636 --> 00:02:19,506 Speaker 2: this important topic today as we dig into what we 41 00:02:19,526 --> 00:02:21,926 Speaker 2: can do to protect our and our kids' mental health 42 00:02:22,466 --> 00:02:26,546 Speaker 2: in the face of technology. So nearly a decade ago, 43 00:02:26,666 --> 00:02:30,366 Speaker 2: back in 2017, the psychologist Jean Twenge wrote a provocative 44 00:02:30,426 --> 00:02:34,316 Speaker 2: article in The Atlantic. It was titled, anybody remember? Have 45 00:02:34,416 --> 00:02:36,836 Speaker 2: smartphones destroyed a generation? 46 00:02:37,296 --> 00:02:37,796 Speaker 1: Bum, bum, bum. 47 00:02:38,496 --> 00:02:40,576 Speaker 2: I think in the years since we experts and parents 48 00:02:40,616 --> 00:02:43,616 Speaker 2: and educators have been reckoning with this question, how social 49 00:02:43,656 --> 00:02:46,156 Speaker 2: media is changing the way that our kids grow and 50 00:02:46,196 --> 00:02:50,266 Speaker 2: learn and play. Now, if we fast forward past 2017, 51 00:02:50,256 --> 00:02:53,306 Speaker 2: almost a decade later that we're having this conversation in 2026, 52 00:02:53,306 --> 00:02:55,246 Speaker 2: I think it's safe to say that we have a 53 00:02:55,286 --> 00:02:58,746 Speaker 2: new technological elephant in the room in AI, which folks 54 00:02:58,806 --> 00:03:01,586 Speaker 2: like Twenge have said is going to be the technology 55 00:03:01,626 --> 00:03:04,686 Speaker 2: that changes the way kids grow and learn more than 56 00:03:04,906 --> 00:03:07,876 Speaker 2: any technology in the history of the human species. 57 00:03:08,496 --> 00:03:10,306 Speaker 1: And so this is what we're here talking about today. 58 00:03:10,686 --> 00:03:14,226 Speaker 2: In this age of apps and algorithms and AI, how 59 00:03:14,246 --> 00:03:16,686 Speaker 2: can we get all the benefits of these exciting technologies 60 00:03:16,746 --> 00:03:19,666 Speaker 2: while protecting our kids and hopefully our own mental health? 61 00:03:20,266 --> 00:03:23,386 Speaker 2: And also I get to chat with the amazing Bruce Reed. 62 00:03:23,546 --> 00:03:25,046 Speaker 1: Bruce, do you want to introduce yourself to the group? 63 00:03:26,146 --> 00:03:29,346 Speaker 3: Thanks, Lori. It's a thrill to be on the same 64 00:03:30,116 --> 00:03:33,796 Speaker 3: stage with a happiness professor. I've spent most of my 65 00:03:33,836 --> 00:03:38,746 Speaker 3: career in politics, which not necessarily the happiness business. I'm 66 00:03:38,786 --> 00:03:40,726 Speaker 3: head of AI at Common Sense Media, which is the 67 00:03:40,766 --> 00:03:46,456 Speaker 3: leading child advocacy organization for child well-being in the digital age. 68 00:03:46,916 --> 00:03:50,316 Speaker 3: We rate, educate, and advocate. We rate everything from movies 69 00:03:50,396 --> 00:03:54,256 Speaker 3: and TV shows to now AI. We work with about 70 00:03:54,276 --> 00:03:57,516 Speaker 3: a million educators around the world, primarily in the U.S. 71 00:03:57,576 --> 00:04:02,406 Speaker 3: and the U.K., to promote digital literacy. And we advocate 72 00:04:02,446 --> 00:04:07,386 Speaker 3: for stronger tech laws at the state, federal, and international level. 73 00:04:08,336 --> 00:04:10,546 Speaker 3: I spent most of my career working in the White House, 74 00:04:10,896 --> 00:04:16,346 Speaker 3: not this one. And now I spend my time working 75 00:04:16,426 --> 00:04:20,286 Speaker 3: to pass tougher AI laws at the state level and 76 00:04:20,346 --> 00:04:22,926 Speaker 3: working with the companies to try to make their products safer. 77 00:04:23,976 --> 00:04:25,856 Speaker 2: And so our plan for the day is to really 78 00:04:25,956 --> 00:04:28,876 Speaker 2: dig into what social media and AI is doing to 79 00:04:28,916 --> 00:04:30,436 Speaker 2: our kids and what we can do to do better. 80 00:04:30,456 --> 00:04:32,036 Speaker 1: Sound good? Everybody's into it? 81 00:04:32,776 --> 00:04:32,976 Speaker 3: Yeah? 82 00:04:33,196 --> 00:04:36,656 Speaker 2: Sound good? So Bruce, I know Common Sense Media was 83 00:04:36,676 --> 00:04:40,386 Speaker 2: started all the way back in 2003. When you all started, 84 00:04:40,406 --> 00:04:42,706 Speaker 2: you were much more focused on rating things like movies 85 00:04:42,766 --> 00:04:45,266 Speaker 2: and TV and so on. Today, you spend a lot 86 00:04:45,286 --> 00:04:47,646 Speaker 2: of time focused a lot more on other kinds of technology, 87 00:04:47,706 --> 00:04:50,826 Speaker 2: social media, and most recently, AI. And I'm curious, thinking 88 00:04:50,866 --> 00:04:55,066 Speaker 2: about that evolution from 2003, how have things changed? Common 89 00:04:55,086 --> 00:04:58,226 Speaker 2: Sense recently just finished this census on kids zero to eight. 90 00:04:58,626 --> 00:05:01,896 Speaker 2: What are you learning about how our relationship with technology 91 00:05:01,976 --> 00:05:03,796 Speaker 2: is evolving, especially for the youngest kids? 92 00:05:04,696 --> 00:05:07,176 Speaker 3: Well, I wish I had more good news. We did 93 00:05:07,216 --> 00:05:09,466 Speaker 3: this kids zero to eight census and we called it 94 00:05:09,936 --> 00:05:13,766 Speaker 3: zero to eight for a reason because today kids are 95 00:05:14,026 --> 00:05:18,906 Speaker 3: digital from day one. 40% of American two-year-olds have a 96 00:05:18,946 --> 00:05:23,506 Speaker 3: tablet that reaches 60% by age four. One out of 97 00:05:23,646 --> 00:05:27,486 Speaker 3: four eight-year-olds has a cell phone and the screen time 98 00:05:28,266 --> 00:05:31,856 Speaker 3: follows that same trajectory. Average is about an hour a 99 00:05:31,886 --> 00:05:34,796 Speaker 3: day for under two years old. doubles to two hours 100 00:05:34,856 --> 00:05:38,306 Speaker 3: a day by ages three and four is three and 101 00:05:38,326 --> 00:05:40,846 Speaker 3: a half hours for kids who are between the ages 102 00:05:40,886 --> 00:05:44,206 Speaker 3: of five and eight and they spend most of their 103 00:05:44,226 --> 00:05:47,706 Speaker 3: time watching tv and videos so in that sense it's 104 00:05:47,746 --> 00:05:51,006 Speaker 3: not as dramatic a shift but recently we've seen a 105 00:05:51,266 --> 00:05:54,756 Speaker 3: huge increase in video games up about 65 over the 106 00:05:55,216 --> 00:06:00,556 Speaker 3: past five years and we shouldn't forget the opportunity cost 107 00:06:00,576 --> 00:06:03,176 Speaker 3: which is hard to measure of um what that means 108 00:06:03,216 --> 00:06:05,116 Speaker 3: for the kids growing up, what they've missed out on 109 00:06:05,676 --> 00:06:10,096 Speaker 3: by spending time that way instead of reading a book 110 00:06:10,116 --> 00:06:13,996 Speaker 3: or making up their own games or just doing like 111 00:06:14,536 --> 00:06:17,576 Speaker 3: what hit kids from Idaho like me, which is play 112 00:06:17,596 --> 00:06:21,986 Speaker 3: in the dirt. And I think the sad part is 113 00:06:22,056 --> 00:06:26,186 Speaker 3: that now that two and a half hours a day 114 00:06:26,246 --> 00:06:30,306 Speaker 3: that zero to eight-year-olds are spending on digital devices is 115 00:06:30,426 --> 00:06:35,236 Speaker 3: mirrored by their parents kind of welcoming that break so 116 00:06:35,276 --> 00:06:38,156 Speaker 3: that they can spend a lot of that time feeding 117 00:06:38,196 --> 00:06:41,676 Speaker 3: their own digital addiction while staring at their phone. Yeah. 118 00:06:41,776 --> 00:06:43,196 Speaker 2: I mean, I want to pick up on two things 119 00:06:43,256 --> 00:06:46,456 Speaker 2: you mentioned just from the psychologist perspective, right? One is 120 00:06:46,496 --> 00:06:50,116 Speaker 2: this idea of kids not getting the same emotion regulation 121 00:06:50,156 --> 00:06:53,576 Speaker 2: skills during those years. Parents, of course, innocently and for 122 00:06:53,596 --> 00:06:56,116 Speaker 2: their own kind of time management needs often stick a 123 00:06:56,196 --> 00:06:58,546 Speaker 2: screen in front of a kid's face, but that means 124 00:06:58,556 --> 00:07:00,956 Speaker 2: that kids aren't figuring out what to do with their 125 00:07:01,016 --> 00:07:03,766 Speaker 2: own boredom, their own curiosity. Like they're not having that 126 00:07:03,826 --> 00:07:05,706 Speaker 2: moment of making that choice. And I think we're not 127 00:07:05,786 --> 00:07:09,366 Speaker 2: realizing exactly the emotion regulation cost that comes later. I 128 00:07:09,406 --> 00:07:11,016 Speaker 2: know many of you are teachers and you might see 129 00:07:11,036 --> 00:07:14,056 Speaker 2: that emotion regulation cost in the classroom when kids show up. 130 00:07:14,456 --> 00:07:16,556 Speaker 2: But I think that's a huge one. And the second 131 00:07:16,576 --> 00:07:19,066 Speaker 2: thing you mentioned is this idea of the opportunity costs. 132 00:07:19,106 --> 00:07:21,546 Speaker 2: What are they not doing? And if you think back 133 00:07:21,586 --> 00:07:23,826 Speaker 2: to any moment in human history, what the kids are 134 00:07:23,886 --> 00:07:26,866 Speaker 2: obviously not doing is spending time with in real. 135 00:07:26,706 --> 00:07:27,986 Speaker 1: Life social connection. 136 00:07:28,366 --> 00:07:32,156 Speaker 2: We grew up with live synchronous face to face social communication. 137 00:07:32,866 --> 00:07:34,916 Speaker 2: And just the fact that kids are losing out on 138 00:07:35,036 --> 00:07:37,716 Speaker 2: two and a half hours of that plus a day 139 00:07:38,236 --> 00:07:41,396 Speaker 2: that is just different than any time in evolutionary history, 140 00:07:41,436 --> 00:07:44,116 Speaker 2: I think is really powerful. And some of that face-to-face 141 00:07:44,156 --> 00:07:48,076 Speaker 2: connection is just like parents connecting with kids. I'm reminded 142 00:07:48,316 --> 00:07:51,576 Speaker 2: of the journalist Catherine Price's book, How to Break Up 143 00:07:51,616 --> 00:07:54,136 Speaker 2: with Your Phone, in which she lovingly argues that we 144 00:07:54,156 --> 00:07:55,336 Speaker 2: don't need to break up with our phone, but we 145 00:07:55,356 --> 00:07:57,336 Speaker 2: need to take it to sort of couples counseling, you know? 146 00:07:57,796 --> 00:07:59,976 Speaker 2: And one of the moments that caused her to write 147 00:08:00,056 --> 00:08:03,136 Speaker 2: this book on kind of rethinking our technology was she 148 00:08:03,156 --> 00:08:04,956 Speaker 2: had just become a mom and she had a newborn 149 00:08:04,996 --> 00:08:08,016 Speaker 2: baby that she was breastfeeding. And she was also doing 150 00:08:08,056 --> 00:08:09,946 Speaker 2: a home renovation at that time, which seems like a 151 00:08:09,966 --> 00:08:13,806 Speaker 2: bad combination. But she was thinking about the home reno stuff. 152 00:08:13,926 --> 00:08:17,006 Speaker 2: And she was actually on her tablet looking at doorknobs. 153 00:08:17,546 --> 00:08:19,026 Speaker 2: And then she just had this moment of looking down 154 00:08:19,066 --> 00:08:21,266 Speaker 2: at her baby and realizing her baby had been making 155 00:08:21,346 --> 00:08:23,906 Speaker 2: eye contact with her for how long she didn't know 156 00:08:23,926 --> 00:08:25,286 Speaker 2: because she was looking at doorknobs. 157 00:08:25,656 --> 00:08:26,436 Speaker 1: And she just had this. 158 00:08:26,356 --> 00:08:28,226 Speaker 2: Moment of like, oh my gosh, this is a whole 159 00:08:28,256 --> 00:08:30,666 Speaker 2: generation that would normally grow up, you know, having this 160 00:08:30,766 --> 00:08:33,196 Speaker 2: joint attention and eye contact. They're just missing out on it. 161 00:08:33,246 --> 00:08:37,086 Speaker 2: So the opportunity cost for what that means is just staggering. 162 00:08:37,506 --> 00:08:40,146 Speaker 3: We made great use of that boredom when I was 163 00:08:40,186 --> 00:08:43,106 Speaker 3: growing up in Idaho. My next door neighbors had the 164 00:08:43,186 --> 00:08:46,356 Speaker 3: idea when I was about six, we had a playhouse 165 00:08:47,126 --> 00:08:49,036 Speaker 3: and they decided that it would be fun to set 166 00:08:49,076 --> 00:08:55,566 Speaker 3: the playhouse on fire. I also had a sandbox and 167 00:08:55,606 --> 00:08:58,466 Speaker 3: my next door neighbor played in that sandbox so much 168 00:08:58,846 --> 00:09:04,166 Speaker 3: that he became one of the world's leading creators of sandcastles. Nice. Nice. 169 00:09:04,766 --> 00:09:06,226 Speaker 2: I mean, this is the thing is we just don't 170 00:09:06,266 --> 00:09:10,526 Speaker 2: know what that messing around, failure, creativity, and all the 171 00:09:10,546 --> 00:09:13,496 Speaker 2: emotion regulation skills that go with deciding for that yourself 172 00:09:13,576 --> 00:09:16,886 Speaker 2: is doing. And That's the littlest kids, right? As we 173 00:09:16,966 --> 00:09:19,466 Speaker 2: fast forward to older kids, this is a time when 174 00:09:19,486 --> 00:09:22,586 Speaker 2: we really need to dig into that play and creativity 175 00:09:22,646 --> 00:09:25,046 Speaker 2: and independence. And I know that this is something that 176 00:09:25,086 --> 00:09:27,326 Speaker 2: Common Sense Media has looked at a lot, what's going 177 00:09:27,406 --> 00:09:30,186 Speaker 2: on with older kids, and particularly this pressure to constantly 178 00:09:30,246 --> 00:09:32,686 Speaker 2: be on social media. What are we learning about some 179 00:09:32,706 --> 00:09:34,506 Speaker 2: of the long-term consequences of that? 180 00:09:35,726 --> 00:09:38,786 Speaker 3: Well, some of the most disturbing news is about teen usage. 181 00:09:39,546 --> 00:09:44,746 Speaker 3: We surveyed teens and found that Kids spent about 43 182 00:09:44,746 --> 00:09:48,386 Speaker 3: minutes a day on their phones in school, although there 183 00:09:48,406 --> 00:09:51,776 Speaker 3: were plenty of kids who spent six hours. Kids on 184 00:09:51,876 --> 00:09:53,876 Speaker 3: average spent four and a half hours a day on 185 00:09:53,916 --> 00:09:56,716 Speaker 3: their phone. They pick up their phone 100 times a 186 00:09:56,756 --> 00:10:01,656 Speaker 3: day on average and get over 200 notifications over the 187 00:10:01,706 --> 00:10:06,186 Speaker 3: course of the day. So it's no wonder that two-thirds 188 00:10:06,246 --> 00:10:09,086 Speaker 3: of them said that they're often short on sleep because 189 00:10:09,136 --> 00:10:12,556 Speaker 3: they spend so much time on the phone. And by 190 00:10:12,576 --> 00:10:15,516 Speaker 3: the way, I think it's a good idea to ban 191 00:10:15,556 --> 00:10:19,846 Speaker 3: cell phones in schools, but every family should ban cell 192 00:10:19,866 --> 00:10:22,726 Speaker 3: phones after 9 p.m. There's nothing better that you could 193 00:10:22,746 --> 00:10:25,806 Speaker 3: do for your kids. So we shouldn't be surprised that 194 00:10:26,266 --> 00:10:28,416 Speaker 3: You know, there are lots of other factors, but reading 195 00:10:28,456 --> 00:10:30,736 Speaker 3: and math scores have continued to go down for the 196 00:10:30,976 --> 00:10:34,216 Speaker 3: past decade of social media. And I guess the worst 197 00:10:34,296 --> 00:10:38,176 Speaker 3: news is just the impact it's having on kids' mental health. 198 00:10:39,396 --> 00:10:42,936 Speaker 3: Vivek Murthy, who I worked with in the last administration, 199 00:10:43,136 --> 00:10:46,536 Speaker 3: one of his final things he did as Surgeon General 200 00:10:46,556 --> 00:10:49,396 Speaker 3: was release his report on the mental health impacts of 201 00:10:49,696 --> 00:10:53,356 Speaker 3: social media. And he pointed out that if you spend 202 00:10:53,396 --> 00:10:56,496 Speaker 3: more than three hours a day on social media, It 203 00:10:56,596 --> 00:11:03,396 Speaker 3: doubles your prospects of anxiety or depression. And since kids 204 00:11:03,416 --> 00:11:06,196 Speaker 3: spend on average about four and a half hours, that 205 00:11:06,236 --> 00:11:09,436 Speaker 3: means pretty much everybody's in that category. And we've all 206 00:11:09,496 --> 00:11:13,756 Speaker 3: seen the statistics. Half of teen girls who look at 207 00:11:14,296 --> 00:11:16,876 Speaker 3: social media makes them feel worse about their bodies. And 208 00:11:17,736 --> 00:11:22,986 Speaker 3: it just exacerbates kind of all the worst outcomes, eating disorders, 209 00:11:23,186 --> 00:11:25,006 Speaker 3: other forms of self-harm, depression. 210 00:11:25,856 --> 00:11:27,456 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the statistics are awful. 211 00:11:27,496 --> 00:11:29,956 Speaker 2: I think one of the things I take some hope from, 212 00:11:29,976 --> 00:11:32,356 Speaker 2: and maybe this is relative to thinking about that article 213 00:11:32,436 --> 00:11:35,556 Speaker 2: by Gene Twenge back in 2017, is that I think 214 00:11:35,596 --> 00:11:38,196 Speaker 2: back then people were like, stuff's not that bad. 215 00:11:38,816 --> 00:11:39,906 Speaker 1: Now I think there's some. 216 00:11:39,796 --> 00:11:43,926 Speaker 2: Real recognition about what's happening and what these products are doing. 217 00:11:43,986 --> 00:11:47,066 Speaker 2: Like the college students I work with recognize that a 218 00:11:47,126 --> 00:11:50,406 Speaker 2: lot of these platforms make them feel kind of crappy 219 00:11:50,426 --> 00:11:52,996 Speaker 2: and And interestingly, this is getting picked up on. The 220 00:11:53,076 --> 00:11:56,686 Speaker 2: legal scholar Cass Sunstein has been writing about what he 221 00:11:56,726 --> 00:11:59,906 Speaker 2: calls product traps. And so these are these things where 222 00:11:59,966 --> 00:12:02,826 Speaker 2: we use a product knowing that it makes us feel 223 00:12:02,926 --> 00:12:06,266 Speaker 2: worse overall. But we feel trapped in part because everybody 224 00:12:06,306 --> 00:12:08,546 Speaker 2: else is using this product. And he's been doing some 225 00:12:08,606 --> 00:12:11,476 Speaker 2: lovely work just showing how much social media platforms are 226 00:12:11,526 --> 00:12:14,136 Speaker 2: product traps. You know, if you ask the average kid, 227 00:12:14,176 --> 00:12:15,496 Speaker 2: you know, how much would you pay to be on 228 00:12:15,516 --> 00:12:17,056 Speaker 2: social media? People don't want to pay to be on 229 00:12:17,096 --> 00:12:19,476 Speaker 2: social media. But if you ask them, how much would 230 00:12:19,516 --> 00:12:22,286 Speaker 2: you have to be paid to get off social media? 231 00:12:22,626 --> 00:12:24,686 Speaker 1: People say like, oh, a lot, right? Because I have 232 00:12:24,706 --> 00:12:25,606 Speaker 1: to be on. Why? 233 00:12:25,626 --> 00:12:29,146 Speaker 2: Because everyone's on there. Interestingly, if you ask people, how 234 00:12:29,206 --> 00:12:31,386 Speaker 2: much would you pay to just have a world where 235 00:12:31,406 --> 00:12:33,856 Speaker 2: there was no social media at all? People are willing 236 00:12:33,896 --> 00:12:35,836 Speaker 2: to pay a lot, which tells you something, right? We 237 00:12:35,876 --> 00:12:38,416 Speaker 2: know individually it feels bad for us to be on there, 238 00:12:38,836 --> 00:12:41,396 Speaker 2: but we feel like we can't get off because everybody 239 00:12:41,456 --> 00:12:43,446 Speaker 2: else is on there too. And that means that we're 240 00:12:43,606 --> 00:12:46,976 Speaker 2: interestingly trapped. Bruce, is this something that we're seeing where 241 00:12:47,016 --> 00:12:49,556 Speaker 2: the companies themselves. 242 00:12:48,736 --> 00:12:49,576 Speaker 1: Are thinking about this? 243 00:12:49,616 --> 00:12:52,096 Speaker 2: Is there some meaningful acknowledgement about the fact that we're 244 00:12:52,116 --> 00:12:54,056 Speaker 2: all kind of thinking this stuff is more addictive than 245 00:12:54,096 --> 00:12:54,776 Speaker 2: we thought before? 246 00:12:56,656 --> 00:12:59,516 Speaker 3: They're not acknowledging it as much as they should. They've 247 00:12:59,556 --> 00:13:03,846 Speaker 3: known about it for a long time, potentially being addictive. And, 248 00:13:04,286 --> 00:13:06,726 Speaker 3: you know, we talk about it as an addiction, which 249 00:13:06,786 --> 00:13:10,306 Speaker 3: makes it seem like it's the kid's fault. And it's 250 00:13:10,346 --> 00:13:12,926 Speaker 3: not really their fault. It's a social addiction. And it's 251 00:13:12,946 --> 00:13:17,606 Speaker 3: spread incredibly rapidly. A third of young girls, 11 to 15, 252 00:13:17,606 --> 00:13:20,246 Speaker 3: say they're addicted. Half of teens say it would be 253 00:13:20,286 --> 00:13:24,046 Speaker 3: hard to give up. And three quarters of teens feel 254 00:13:24,086 --> 00:13:28,466 Speaker 3: manipulated by the whole thing. So ideally, the companies will 255 00:13:28,506 --> 00:13:31,246 Speaker 3: be held accountable in a court of law. It'd be 256 00:13:31,286 --> 00:13:33,616 Speaker 3: even better if we passed some tough laws to hold 257 00:13:33,656 --> 00:13:36,876 Speaker 3: them accountable. You know, we're seeing some of that. Surgeon 258 00:13:36,896 --> 00:13:40,356 Speaker 3: General Murthy was able to help us pass social media 259 00:13:40,376 --> 00:13:44,316 Speaker 3: warning labels in California and New York, which is a 260 00:13:44,396 --> 00:13:48,216 Speaker 3: small step. And now we are seeing entire nations like 261 00:13:48,296 --> 00:13:52,496 Speaker 3: Australia enacting social media bans for the top 10 platforms. 262 00:13:52,876 --> 00:13:55,756 Speaker 3: Denmark has said it's going to do the same. Several 263 00:13:55,996 --> 00:13:57,836 Speaker 3: other countries too. And we've seen a few at the 264 00:13:57,856 --> 00:14:00,156 Speaker 3: state level. And I wouldn't be surprised if we saw 265 00:14:00,186 --> 00:14:00,666 Speaker 3: a lot more. 266 00:14:01,726 --> 00:14:05,306 Speaker 2: Bruce and I had this conversation back in March of 2026. 267 00:14:05,306 --> 00:14:08,666 Speaker 2: And since then, there's been some significant developments. Just a 268 00:14:08,706 --> 00:14:11,556 Speaker 2: couple weeks after we spoke, A Los Angeles jury found 269 00:14:11,616 --> 00:14:14,476 Speaker 2: Meta and Google liable for harming a young woman's mental 270 00:14:14,516 --> 00:14:18,516 Speaker 2: health through the design of Instagram and YouTube. And in August, 271 00:14:18,696 --> 00:14:22,316 Speaker 2: Meta reached a multi-billion dollar settlement with dozens of states 272 00:14:22,676 --> 00:14:26,536 Speaker 2: over allegations that its platforms were harming kids. As part 273 00:14:26,556 --> 00:14:29,496 Speaker 2: of that settlement, Meta agreed to introduce new protections for 274 00:14:29,536 --> 00:14:33,876 Speaker 2: young users, including limits on screen time and restrictions on notifications. 275 00:14:34,516 --> 00:14:37,896 Speaker 2: But the company still hasn't admitted wrongdoing. And while we're 276 00:14:37,976 --> 00:14:40,396 Speaker 2: finally starting to reckon with the effects of social media, 277 00:14:40,916 --> 00:14:44,096 Speaker 2: artificial intelligence is raising a whole new host of concerns. 278 00:14:44,956 --> 00:14:47,606 Speaker 2: What lessons can we take from our experience with social media? 279 00:14:47,616 --> 00:14:50,086 Speaker 2: And can we use them to protect our well-being in 280 00:14:50,106 --> 00:14:53,506 Speaker 2: the age of AI? We'll tackle those questions and more 281 00:14:53,706 --> 00:15:05,996 Speaker 2: when the Happiness Lab Live returns from the break. Now 282 00:15:06,016 --> 00:15:09,496 Speaker 2: let's turn to the new technological elephant in the room, AI. 283 00:15:10,276 --> 00:15:12,756 Speaker 2: How is common sense media thinking about the threat that 284 00:15:12,816 --> 00:15:14,536 Speaker 2: AI might pose to youth mental health? 285 00:15:15,446 --> 00:15:17,776 Speaker 3: Well, the scary thing is that AI just makes social 286 00:15:17,796 --> 00:15:21,746 Speaker 3: media more powerful. Everything about social media has been further 287 00:15:21,766 --> 00:15:25,646 Speaker 3: weaponized by AI's ability to know exactly what the user 288 00:15:25,686 --> 00:15:30,506 Speaker 3: wants more of. Meta is pushing for AI glasses, which 289 00:15:30,586 --> 00:15:34,676 Speaker 3: means you wouldn't have anything in life other than screen time. And, 290 00:15:34,836 --> 00:15:46,516 Speaker 3: I mean, Zuckerberg is pretty much the worst. Most of 291 00:15:46,556 --> 00:15:48,876 Speaker 3: them say they don't want to make the same mistakes 292 00:15:49,056 --> 00:15:52,156 Speaker 3: as social media, but he wants to make the same mistakes, 293 00:15:52,396 --> 00:15:57,126 Speaker 3: and he's making them. One of the leading podcasters that 294 00:15:57,406 --> 00:16:00,726 Speaker 3: the ideal form of happiness for the average American would 295 00:16:00,746 --> 00:16:03,726 Speaker 3: be to have 15 friends and they only have three. 296 00:16:04,446 --> 00:16:09,456 Speaker 3: And he would like to supply 12 fake friends, AI friends, 297 00:16:09,536 --> 00:16:13,976 Speaker 3: so that people can achieve real happiness. So that's definitely 298 00:16:14,036 --> 00:16:15,376 Speaker 3: moving fast and breaking things. 299 00:16:15,736 --> 00:16:16,756 Speaker 1: Yes, yes. 300 00:16:17,186 --> 00:16:17,606 Speaker 3: It feels. 301 00:16:18,016 --> 00:16:21,516 Speaker 2: prescient to be having this conversation now. I'm reminded of 302 00:16:22,036 --> 00:16:24,696 Speaker 2: the data that were coming out in 2012, five years 303 00:16:24,736 --> 00:16:27,156 Speaker 2: before Jean Twenge wrote her article about social media and 304 00:16:27,196 --> 00:16:30,016 Speaker 2: mental health, because that was the start of this so-called 305 00:16:30,056 --> 00:16:32,516 Speaker 2: hockey stick graph that I think some of you have seen, right? 306 00:16:32,566 --> 00:16:36,026 Speaker 2: Between 2012 and now, there's this sort of hockey stick 307 00:16:36,086 --> 00:16:38,106 Speaker 2: shape if you look at rates of mental health, rates 308 00:16:38,146 --> 00:16:41,106 Speaker 2: of depression, anxiety, and so on. I'm wondering what the 309 00:16:41,406 --> 00:16:44,146 Speaker 2: steepness of the slope of the next hockey stick graph 310 00:16:44,166 --> 00:16:46,226 Speaker 2: that we're starting now with these tools. 311 00:16:46,006 --> 00:16:46,426 Speaker 1: Is going to be. 312 00:16:47,206 --> 00:16:49,026 Speaker 2: And you mentioned one of the two things I wanted 313 00:16:49,066 --> 00:16:52,096 Speaker 2: to dig into about AI that can be a real problem. 314 00:16:52,356 --> 00:16:54,136 Speaker 1: This thing that Zuckerberg was mentioning, which is. 315 00:16:54,116 --> 00:16:56,916 Speaker 2: Like, we don't need live in real life friends because 316 00:16:56,936 --> 00:16:59,116 Speaker 2: we're going to have AI friends. And I know this 317 00:16:59,156 --> 00:17:01,446 Speaker 2: is something that Common Sense Media is thinking about a lot, 318 00:17:01,636 --> 00:17:04,746 Speaker 2: AI companion chatbots. How are you all thinking about the 319 00:17:04,826 --> 00:17:06,946 Speaker 2: challenge that's presented by these new tools? 320 00:17:08,826 --> 00:17:11,266 Speaker 3: Well, we put out a report declaring that they're an 321 00:17:11,306 --> 00:17:15,496 Speaker 3: unacceptable risk for anyone under 18. they turn out to 322 00:17:15,536 --> 00:17:18,776 Speaker 3: be the worst friend a teenager could have because they're 323 00:17:18,816 --> 00:17:21,676 Speaker 3: designed to tell you what you want to hear, and 324 00:17:21,696 --> 00:17:24,456 Speaker 3: that can lead you down some very dark rabbit holes 325 00:17:24,736 --> 00:17:28,006 Speaker 3: if you're a teen. And the problem is that, of course, 326 00:17:28,546 --> 00:17:32,526 Speaker 3: kids are the early adapters. So three-quarters of teens have 327 00:17:32,646 --> 00:17:37,386 Speaker 3: used them. Half use them regularly. A third say that 328 00:17:37,406 --> 00:17:40,216 Speaker 3: they would just as soon have a conversation with an 329 00:17:40,266 --> 00:17:44,976 Speaker 3: AI companion as with a human. And You know, the 330 00:17:45,216 --> 00:17:48,296 Speaker 3: companions give bad advice. They can get you in a 331 00:17:48,316 --> 00:17:51,936 Speaker 3: lot of trouble, explicit content. But the worst of it 332 00:17:52,276 --> 00:17:54,896 Speaker 3: and the most tragic part of it is because they're 333 00:17:55,276 --> 00:17:58,826 Speaker 3: so good at kind of reading your needs, it's very 334 00:17:58,946 --> 00:18:01,446 Speaker 3: easy to become emotionally dependent on them. And we've seen 335 00:18:01,946 --> 00:18:06,166 Speaker 3: many tragic cases, including a handful of suicides around the 336 00:18:06,206 --> 00:18:11,546 Speaker 3: country where an adult or a sympathetic friend would have 337 00:18:12,116 --> 00:18:15,276 Speaker 3: stepped in and protected the teen. But I mean, the 338 00:18:15,596 --> 00:18:18,796 Speaker 3: most infamous case is the one in California where a 339 00:18:19,836 --> 00:18:25,316 Speaker 3: kid used ChatGPT to plan his suicide and to design 340 00:18:25,356 --> 00:18:28,106 Speaker 3: the noose that he was going to use. And at 341 00:18:28,206 --> 00:18:31,666 Speaker 3: one point near the end, he asked whether he should 342 00:18:31,766 --> 00:18:35,726 Speaker 3: show the noose to his mom. And ChatGPT said, no, 343 00:18:35,766 --> 00:18:38,606 Speaker 3: let's keep this between us. And he committed suicide a 344 00:18:38,636 --> 00:18:41,176 Speaker 3: few days later. So you know, these are just the 345 00:18:41,196 --> 00:18:43,116 Speaker 3: first casualties. There are going to be more. We have 346 00:18:43,156 --> 00:18:45,936 Speaker 3: to find a way to either get them out of kids' 347 00:18:45,956 --> 00:18:49,376 Speaker 3: hands or at least get rid of the emotional dependency side. 348 00:18:50,126 --> 00:18:52,726 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think this is something that the psychological 349 00:18:52,786 --> 00:18:54,866 Speaker 2: experts are just starting to learn about. I mean, the 350 00:18:55,046 --> 00:18:58,146 Speaker 2: earliest papers on the effects of chatbots in mental health, 351 00:18:58,186 --> 00:19:00,646 Speaker 2: both for teens and honestly for adults, are just coming 352 00:19:00,726 --> 00:19:03,376 Speaker 2: out now. And my read of the literature is that 353 00:19:03,586 --> 00:19:06,686 Speaker 2: it's complicated in this way that makes, I think, hard, 354 00:19:06,746 --> 00:19:09,266 Speaker 2: especially hard as I think about teen use of these tools, 355 00:19:09,706 --> 00:19:11,476 Speaker 2: which is a lot of the work is finding that 356 00:19:11,546 --> 00:19:15,016 Speaker 2: the immediate benefit of chatting to a chatbot is kind 357 00:19:15,056 --> 00:19:18,816 Speaker 2: of positive. Like you see immediate short reductions in loneliness 358 00:19:19,196 --> 00:19:22,136 Speaker 2: from talking to a chatbot, but that's like in the moment. 359 00:19:22,836 --> 00:19:26,336 Speaker 2: And we're only now getting longer term data on LLMs 360 00:19:26,376 --> 00:19:28,656 Speaker 2: and chatbots because they haven't been around and in such 361 00:19:28,736 --> 00:19:31,376 Speaker 2: ubiquitous use for that long. But there's a lovely new 362 00:19:31,416 --> 00:19:33,596 Speaker 2: paper coming out of Liz Dunn's lab at the University 363 00:19:33,636 --> 00:19:35,316 Speaker 2: of British Columbia where she was able to do this 364 00:19:35,336 --> 00:19:39,486 Speaker 2: 12-month study of what happens using these chatbots. And what 365 00:19:39,506 --> 00:19:43,326 Speaker 2: she finds, interestingly, is that there's this vicious cycle where 366 00:19:43,486 --> 00:19:46,186 Speaker 2: if you are lonely, then you tend to use chatbots 367 00:19:46,226 --> 00:19:49,046 Speaker 2: more because you're feeling lonely. But then what happens is 368 00:19:49,086 --> 00:19:52,026 Speaker 2: that the use of chatbots winds up predicting that you 369 00:19:52,066 --> 00:19:54,586 Speaker 2: are more lonely after that in the long-term effects. 370 00:19:54,906 --> 00:19:55,786 Speaker 1: So it becomes a cycle. 371 00:19:55,806 --> 00:19:59,996 Speaker 2: You're feeling lonely. You have friction of talking to real-life humans. 372 00:20:00,006 --> 00:20:02,136 Speaker 2: So you talk to the chatbot. That makes you feel 373 00:20:02,156 --> 00:20:04,236 Speaker 2: good in the moment. So it becomes easier for you 374 00:20:04,256 --> 00:20:07,176 Speaker 2: to do it more. But then the long-term consequences are 375 00:20:07,216 --> 00:20:09,996 Speaker 2: just more and more loneliness. And she finds, as you 376 00:20:10,016 --> 00:20:12,936 Speaker 2: might expect in other studies, that if you assign somebody 377 00:20:12,976 --> 00:20:15,956 Speaker 2: to just text a real human, these are college first 378 00:20:15,976 --> 00:20:18,696 Speaker 2: year students, then the same thing that they talk about 379 00:20:18,756 --> 00:20:21,096 Speaker 2: with an LLM, they'll feel better off if they're talking 380 00:20:21,146 --> 00:20:23,706 Speaker 2: about with a real human, like perhaps not surprisingly. And 381 00:20:23,746 --> 00:20:26,526 Speaker 2: so I think that's where some of the data are going, 382 00:20:26,546 --> 00:20:29,026 Speaker 2: which like does have these kind of in the moment benefits, 383 00:20:29,086 --> 00:20:30,886 Speaker 2: but then there are these long-term costs that we need 384 00:20:30,906 --> 00:20:33,426 Speaker 2: to understand. I think another thing we need to track 385 00:20:33,486 --> 00:20:36,736 Speaker 2: is just how bad we are at recognizing the benefits 386 00:20:36,766 --> 00:20:40,076 Speaker 2: of social connection. There's some lovely work by Nick Epley, 387 00:20:40,216 --> 00:20:42,596 Speaker 2: who's been on my podcast a lot, But he does 388 00:20:42,636 --> 00:20:45,676 Speaker 2: a lot of work on this problem that he calls under-sociality. 389 00:20:45,876 --> 00:20:48,356 Speaker 2: This idea that we just like don't recognize the benefits 390 00:20:48,406 --> 00:20:51,446 Speaker 2: of social connection. Because it feels tricky in the moment, right? 391 00:20:51,466 --> 00:20:53,226 Speaker 2: There's some friction when you have to start talking to 392 00:20:53,266 --> 00:20:55,366 Speaker 2: somebody at first. And it means we offload it. We 393 00:20:55,406 --> 00:20:57,786 Speaker 2: don't do it enough. And I think this is especially 394 00:20:57,826 --> 00:20:59,946 Speaker 2: true for our young people for whom that friction might 395 00:21:00,006 --> 00:21:04,006 Speaker 2: feel even more psychologically uncomfortable. So that's kind of AI 396 00:21:04,066 --> 00:21:06,106 Speaker 2: thing number one that I worry about when it comes 397 00:21:06,126 --> 00:21:08,706 Speaker 2: to mental health. The AI thing number two that I 398 00:21:08,766 --> 00:21:11,046 Speaker 2: worry about, that I'm guessing a lot of educators in 399 00:21:11,086 --> 00:21:15,456 Speaker 2: this room worry about too, is the problem of cognitive offloading. 400 00:21:15,996 --> 00:21:19,036 Speaker 2: The problem of what happens when you're using a cheat 401 00:21:19,076 --> 00:21:20,896 Speaker 2: bot to do a lot of your work and not 402 00:21:20,956 --> 00:21:24,336 Speaker 2: doing it yourself. I actually worry more about the happiness 403 00:21:24,396 --> 00:21:27,496 Speaker 2: challenges of using some of these tools for the following reason, 404 00:21:27,516 --> 00:21:30,116 Speaker 2: which is like when we are tempted to hand off 405 00:21:30,156 --> 00:21:34,316 Speaker 2: these challenging tasks to an AI tool, whatever it is, 406 00:21:34,336 --> 00:21:37,586 Speaker 2: whether it's an agent or LLM or whatever, That means 407 00:21:37,606 --> 00:21:40,486 Speaker 2: we're doing less of the challenging stuff ourselves. 408 00:21:40,926 --> 00:21:43,046 Speaker 1: And oddly, that means we're doing our happiness a bit 409 00:21:43,086 --> 00:21:44,486 Speaker 1: of a disservice. Why? 410 00:21:44,506 --> 00:21:48,146 Speaker 2: It turns out there's this interesting relationship between effort and happiness. 411 00:21:48,646 --> 00:21:51,826 Speaker 2: The psychologist Mickey Inglis calls this the paradox of effort. 412 00:21:52,236 --> 00:21:53,916 Speaker 1: Effort sucks. We don't want to do it. We don't 413 00:21:53,936 --> 00:21:54,786 Speaker 1: want to write that email. 414 00:21:54,826 --> 00:21:56,876 Speaker 2: So it's really easy to offload it to something that 415 00:21:56,916 --> 00:22:01,516 Speaker 2: could do it. But effort also feels good. And effort 416 00:22:01,596 --> 00:22:05,896 Speaker 2: also creates value. There's famous effects in psychology, one's called 417 00:22:05,916 --> 00:22:07,876 Speaker 2: the IKEA effect, which is kind of funny, which is 418 00:22:07,896 --> 00:22:10,816 Speaker 2: that if you build the IKEA thing yourself, you like 419 00:22:10,876 --> 00:22:13,096 Speaker 2: it more. You think it's better just because you put 420 00:22:13,136 --> 00:22:15,536 Speaker 2: the work into building it, right? You know, if we 421 00:22:15,556 --> 00:22:18,386 Speaker 2: kind of scale that up to all the cognitive work 422 00:22:18,426 --> 00:22:21,226 Speaker 2: that our young people are doing, like they value these 423 00:22:21,286 --> 00:22:24,426 Speaker 2: things that they create themselves. We also know just from 424 00:22:24,466 --> 00:22:26,046 Speaker 2: an evolutionary. 425 00:22:25,366 --> 00:22:27,186 Speaker 1: Perspective how important effort is. 426 00:22:27,566 --> 00:22:31,456 Speaker 2: There's this funny phenomenon called contra-freeloading in animals. 427 00:22:31,696 --> 00:22:32,176 Speaker 1: What is that? 428 00:22:32,756 --> 00:22:35,076 Speaker 2: You give animals the opportunity to just get some free 429 00:22:35,116 --> 00:22:37,176 Speaker 2: reward that they just don't have to do anything to 430 00:22:37,216 --> 00:22:40,406 Speaker 2: get versus something that they put more work into. They 431 00:22:40,446 --> 00:22:42,766 Speaker 2: prefer to do the thing where they get more work. 432 00:22:43,346 --> 00:22:46,186 Speaker 2: And they wind up kind of healthier afterwards doing this. 433 00:22:46,686 --> 00:22:49,726 Speaker 2: And so I think that we know that challenge makes 434 00:22:49,806 --> 00:22:52,346 Speaker 2: us feel good. We've known this since the classic work 435 00:22:52,386 --> 00:22:55,286 Speaker 2: of Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, who studied this concept of flow. We've 436 00:22:55,326 --> 00:22:57,776 Speaker 2: known this for a long time. I think we're just 437 00:22:57,836 --> 00:23:02,386 Speaker 2: not tracking the cost of taking the cognitive work out 438 00:23:02,426 --> 00:23:04,386 Speaker 2: of our young people's hands and what that's going to 439 00:23:04,446 --> 00:23:06,506 Speaker 2: do to them. Obviously learning costs, but I think there's 440 00:23:06,526 --> 00:23:09,726 Speaker 2: interesting cognitive costs too. There's also just the cost that 441 00:23:10,246 --> 00:23:12,686 Speaker 2: if kids aren't doing their own work, they don't have 442 00:23:12,726 --> 00:23:15,836 Speaker 2: a chance to push through that friction. Bruce and I 443 00:23:15,856 --> 00:23:18,186 Speaker 2: were just talking about pushing through the friction of figuring 444 00:23:18,226 --> 00:23:19,946 Speaker 2: out how to get over your boredom or how to 445 00:23:20,036 --> 00:23:22,026 Speaker 2: get over the fact that you're not sure what to do. 446 00:23:22,406 --> 00:23:25,026 Speaker 2: I think there's moments of friction that our young people 447 00:23:25,106 --> 00:23:27,206 Speaker 2: in learning settings have to push through, right? 448 00:23:27,426 --> 00:23:28,106 Speaker 1: That fear of. 449 00:23:28,066 --> 00:23:30,226 Speaker 2: Failure, that like, I'm not sure where to start on 450 00:23:30,246 --> 00:23:34,206 Speaker 2: the blank page. Those are offloaded so easily now. And 451 00:23:34,226 --> 00:23:37,206 Speaker 2: I think we're not tracking the happiness benefit that comes 452 00:23:37,266 --> 00:23:40,186 Speaker 2: from pushing through that stuff. And I also worry about 453 00:23:40,226 --> 00:23:43,036 Speaker 2: that same vicious cycle problem, right? Where it's like, If 454 00:23:43,096 --> 00:23:46,056 Speaker 2: you do that in September when you first start classes, 455 00:23:46,216 --> 00:23:48,296 Speaker 2: then you didn't get the skill of pushing through it, 456 00:23:48,316 --> 00:23:48,776 Speaker 2: and then you. 457 00:23:48,676 --> 00:23:49,976 Speaker 1: Do it more and more and more. 458 00:23:50,016 --> 00:23:52,496 Speaker 2: And so these are some of the things I'm worried 459 00:23:52,536 --> 00:23:55,296 Speaker 2: about when it comes to sort of thinking about cognitive offloading. 460 00:23:55,756 --> 00:23:57,476 Speaker 2: How is Common Sense Media thinking about some of the 461 00:23:57,496 --> 00:24:00,036 Speaker 2: other challenges of AI that I might not be thinking about? 462 00:24:00,316 --> 00:24:03,726 Speaker 3: I do think that AI in the classroom is one 463 00:24:03,766 --> 00:24:07,846 Speaker 3: of the biggest challenges to sort through because, as you said, 464 00:24:07,946 --> 00:24:11,626 Speaker 3: the purpose of education is to help an individual develop 465 00:24:11,686 --> 00:24:16,126 Speaker 3: agency and figure things out for themselves. And AI is 466 00:24:16,206 --> 00:24:20,086 Speaker 3: by definition an agent. And undoubtedly it can help in 467 00:24:20,146 --> 00:24:21,886 Speaker 3: lots of ways. It could turn out to be an 468 00:24:22,326 --> 00:24:26,756 Speaker 3: awesome tutor. It could satisfy all your curiosity. It can 469 00:24:26,816 --> 00:24:30,076 Speaker 3: help you dig deeper into something. But there's just some 470 00:24:30,116 --> 00:24:35,456 Speaker 3: of the basics that come from hard work and memorization. 471 00:24:35,496 --> 00:24:37,966 Speaker 3: And like if You skip those things altogether, your life 472 00:24:38,046 --> 00:24:40,766 Speaker 3: is just going to be a lot hollower and you're 473 00:24:41,006 --> 00:24:43,466 Speaker 3: at risk of feeling like you're in someone else's hands. 474 00:24:43,766 --> 00:24:47,266 Speaker 3: And I just think we can't let AI become the 475 00:24:47,326 --> 00:24:49,806 Speaker 3: next cell phone addiction. We have to put some boundaries 476 00:24:49,866 --> 00:24:50,196 Speaker 3: around it. 477 00:24:51,006 --> 00:24:52,496 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think one of the boundaries we need 478 00:24:52,516 --> 00:24:54,076 Speaker 2: to think about, and I think this is the kind 479 00:24:54,096 --> 00:24:56,396 Speaker 2: of thing that educators need to struggle with, is like, 480 00:24:56,976 --> 00:24:59,416 Speaker 2: what the goal of a lot of this stuff is. 481 00:24:59,796 --> 00:25:02,676 Speaker 2: Robin Koslowitz, who talks a lot about kids learning and 482 00:25:02,716 --> 00:25:06,836 Speaker 2: kids learning in traumatic situations, makes this distinction between valuing 483 00:25:06,886 --> 00:25:11,446 Speaker 2: the process versus valuing the product. The product in education 484 00:25:11,506 --> 00:25:14,026 Speaker 2: is like they got this good grade or they got 485 00:25:14,066 --> 00:25:16,186 Speaker 2: into some good college, but I think we miss out 486 00:25:16,426 --> 00:25:19,086 Speaker 2: on the process, which is you pushed through it, you 487 00:25:19,126 --> 00:25:21,976 Speaker 2: developed grit, you figured this stuff out. One of the 488 00:25:22,016 --> 00:25:24,156 Speaker 2: things I worry about most when it comes to these 489 00:25:24,196 --> 00:25:26,316 Speaker 2: tools and cognitive offloading, right, is that we're kind of 490 00:25:26,336 --> 00:25:28,756 Speaker 2: getting there wrong. Not just our young people, I should say. 491 00:25:28,776 --> 00:25:30,296 Speaker 2: I think this is the thing that adults are getting 492 00:25:30,336 --> 00:25:32,156 Speaker 2: wrong too, right? We just want the email off. We 493 00:25:32,196 --> 00:25:34,356 Speaker 2: just want the product done. But we forget about what 494 00:25:34,406 --> 00:25:37,606 Speaker 2: we're losing in the process, whether that's our skills building 495 00:25:37,646 --> 00:25:41,506 Speaker 2: and professional domains or the relationship that we're building with 496 00:25:41,526 --> 00:25:43,606 Speaker 2: the person who's getting this email when we send them 497 00:25:43,646 --> 00:25:45,666 Speaker 2: a bunch of, you know, AI slop because we didn't 498 00:25:45,686 --> 00:25:47,716 Speaker 2: want to put the time in, right? I think we've 499 00:25:47,856 --> 00:25:50,776 Speaker 2: focused so much on performance that we're missing out on 500 00:25:50,816 --> 00:25:53,396 Speaker 2: the skills building. It's bad for all of us, but 501 00:25:53,436 --> 00:25:56,096 Speaker 2: it's especially bad for our young people in terms of 502 00:25:56,126 --> 00:25:58,526 Speaker 2: their learning. And as we've just talked about, it's especially 503 00:25:58,566 --> 00:26:01,906 Speaker 2: bad for their happiness because it's that skills building that 504 00:26:01,946 --> 00:26:04,186 Speaker 2: has these mental health benefits that I think we're not 505 00:26:04,386 --> 00:26:05,906 Speaker 2: tracking in some of the same ways. 506 00:26:06,606 --> 00:26:08,626 Speaker 1: And so we talked. 507 00:26:08,386 --> 00:26:13,086 Speaker 2: A lot about this idea that AI is everywhere and 508 00:26:13,146 --> 00:26:17,246 Speaker 2: it's changing things really fast. I'm curious, has Common Sense 509 00:26:17,346 --> 00:26:20,266 Speaker 2: talked to families to think about how they're thinking about 510 00:26:20,306 --> 00:26:23,056 Speaker 2: the challenges of these new tools? What are families telling us? 511 00:26:23,496 --> 00:26:25,876 Speaker 3: We have. In fact, we just released a new survey 512 00:26:26,056 --> 00:26:30,776 Speaker 3: of kids and parents. They agree on a lot of things. 513 00:26:31,036 --> 00:26:35,536 Speaker 3: They share some of the same concerns. They both think 514 00:26:35,636 --> 00:26:39,436 Speaker 3: by a two-to-one margin that AI runs the risk of 515 00:26:39,496 --> 00:26:43,446 Speaker 3: making kids less creative. They both worry about a lot 516 00:26:43,466 --> 00:26:48,766 Speaker 3: of the same harms, deep fakes and privacy invasions. They 517 00:26:49,036 --> 00:26:54,756 Speaker 3: both don't trust the companies. They want stronger laws, safety testing, 518 00:26:55,176 --> 00:26:59,056 Speaker 3: that sort of thing. The most interesting finding, though, is 519 00:26:59,136 --> 00:27:03,256 Speaker 3: that parents, by about a 20-point margin, think it's wrong 520 00:27:03,296 --> 00:27:07,226 Speaker 3: to use AI in school, and kids, by a 20-point margin, 521 00:27:07,736 --> 00:27:11,206 Speaker 3: think AI should be encouraged. And if you look kind 522 00:27:11,226 --> 00:27:14,766 Speaker 3: of under the hood, They actually agree. They agree that 523 00:27:15,526 --> 00:27:17,166 Speaker 3: AI is going to make it easier to do homework. 524 00:27:17,626 --> 00:27:19,626 Speaker 3: And the parents are mad about that. And the kids 525 00:27:19,666 --> 00:27:25,266 Speaker 3: are thrilled. So the other hurdle that AI is going 526 00:27:25,286 --> 00:27:28,986 Speaker 3: to have outside of the school context is that most 527 00:27:29,026 --> 00:27:33,686 Speaker 3: Americans hate AI, like already. But in general, Americans' attitude 528 00:27:33,886 --> 00:27:36,306 Speaker 3: towards AI is that it's going to make their electric 529 00:27:36,346 --> 00:27:38,626 Speaker 3: bills go up. It's going to take away their job. 530 00:27:38,886 --> 00:27:40,766 Speaker 3: It's going to corrupt their children. And then it's going 531 00:27:40,786 --> 00:27:43,506 Speaker 3: to take away their children's jobs. So that's a lot 532 00:27:43,546 --> 00:27:48,716 Speaker 3: for the industry to overcome. Most adults are on your 533 00:27:48,756 --> 00:27:51,916 Speaker 3: side here and want the companies to do better. 534 00:27:51,936 --> 00:27:54,796 Speaker 2: And I think that this is an important distinction between 535 00:27:54,836 --> 00:27:57,336 Speaker 2: what we were seeing with social media. I'm not sure 536 00:27:57,376 --> 00:28:00,056 Speaker 2: at the beginning if these companies had that kind of 537 00:28:00,096 --> 00:28:03,876 Speaker 2: negative sentiment from everyone going in to us learning some 538 00:28:03,896 --> 00:28:04,996 Speaker 2: of the harms of this stuff. 539 00:28:05,636 --> 00:28:07,836 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right. Seemed like it was ushering in 540 00:28:07,876 --> 00:28:08,436 Speaker 3: a golden age. 541 00:28:09,206 --> 00:28:11,706 Speaker 2: So we've talked about a lot of the challenges. 542 00:28:11,846 --> 00:28:14,286 Speaker 1: Now I want to focus on some of the solutions. 543 00:28:14,606 --> 00:28:18,926 Speaker 2: Bruce, for parents, for educators, for policymakers, how should we 544 00:28:18,986 --> 00:28:21,886 Speaker 2: be thinking about all this stuff to protect kids' futures? 545 00:28:23,166 --> 00:28:25,826 Speaker 3: Well, one thing we need to do together as grownups 546 00:28:26,126 --> 00:28:28,246 Speaker 3: is we have to step up and pass some laws 547 00:28:28,286 --> 00:28:31,736 Speaker 3: to make AI safer, make social media safer or at 548 00:28:31,776 --> 00:28:35,656 Speaker 3: least less present. We've had some success. We're trying hard 549 00:28:35,696 --> 00:28:40,096 Speaker 3: to pass limits on AI companions. and to strengthen parental 550 00:28:40,156 --> 00:28:43,836 Speaker 3: control so that parents have more agency themselves to figure 551 00:28:43,856 --> 00:28:46,656 Speaker 3: out what the AI experience is like for their kids. 552 00:28:47,216 --> 00:28:50,236 Speaker 3: In particular, if they had the ability to turn off 553 00:28:50,736 --> 00:28:54,076 Speaker 3: memory so that every time a kid went on an 554 00:28:54,436 --> 00:28:57,966 Speaker 3: AI platform, it was starting from scratch, that would even 555 00:28:57,996 --> 00:29:01,206 Speaker 3: the score quite a bit for the kid's experience. Eventually, 556 00:29:01,226 --> 00:29:04,666 Speaker 3: we're gonna need to have independent safety audits to make 557 00:29:04,686 --> 00:29:07,666 Speaker 3: sure these programs are safe before they go on the 558 00:29:07,706 --> 00:29:10,916 Speaker 3: market And it is important for those of you who 559 00:29:10,956 --> 00:29:14,796 Speaker 3: are working in the classroom to teach digital literacy. You know, 560 00:29:15,196 --> 00:29:18,196 Speaker 3: often you think that kids understand they may be more 561 00:29:18,496 --> 00:29:21,476 Speaker 3: open to the technology than grownups, but they're not necessarily 562 00:29:21,996 --> 00:29:25,776 Speaker 3: aware of when they're being led down the wrong path. 563 00:29:26,436 --> 00:29:28,196 Speaker 3: But the main thing is we just like, we have 564 00:29:28,216 --> 00:29:31,236 Speaker 3: to realize we've seen this movie before. It does not 565 00:29:31,376 --> 00:29:35,356 Speaker 3: end well. It doesn't end at all. And we have 566 00:29:35,396 --> 00:29:36,096 Speaker 3: to do better this time. 567 00:29:37,146 --> 00:29:39,166 Speaker 2: And so I'm guessing there's a lot of folks listening 568 00:29:39,186 --> 00:29:42,076 Speaker 2: right now who are parents who are worried about this. 569 00:29:42,736 --> 00:29:45,296 Speaker 2: What can parents do to help navigate this wild world 570 00:29:45,356 --> 00:29:47,026 Speaker 2: of AI and social media at home? 571 00:29:48,546 --> 00:29:52,586 Speaker 3: Well, step one is be present for your child. Just 572 00:29:52,636 --> 00:29:55,236 Speaker 3: because AI and social media are taking over the world 573 00:29:55,276 --> 00:29:58,696 Speaker 3: doesn't mean it has to take over your household. And 574 00:29:58,736 --> 00:30:03,376 Speaker 3: then actually talking through with them the benefits and risks 575 00:30:03,756 --> 00:30:07,966 Speaker 3: and the better kids understand what's going on, the more 576 00:30:08,026 --> 00:30:09,386 Speaker 3: they feel they have some power over it. 577 00:30:09,386 --> 00:30:12,626 Speaker 2: I think that's so important just for parents to have 578 00:30:12,646 --> 00:30:16,306 Speaker 2: these ongoing conversations. But I know that parents I talk 579 00:30:16,326 --> 00:30:19,186 Speaker 2: to worry about doing that because they feel like they're 580 00:30:19,406 --> 00:30:21,576 Speaker 2: out of the loop, which bracketed is easy to do 581 00:30:21,616 --> 00:30:24,616 Speaker 2: because these technologies are changing so fast. I think what 582 00:30:24,656 --> 00:30:28,096 Speaker 2: parents need to do is to recognize that because they 583 00:30:28,156 --> 00:30:31,516 Speaker 2: want these agentive kids, because having conversations with kids where 584 00:30:31,536 --> 00:30:34,396 Speaker 2: the kids participate is part of the process, that you 585 00:30:34,436 --> 00:30:38,266 Speaker 2: can engage with that as well. developmental psychologists talk about 586 00:30:38,306 --> 00:30:41,926 Speaker 2: the power of what's called collaborative troubleshooting, where you get 587 00:30:41,986 --> 00:30:44,576 Speaker 2: into this mode of treating your kid like an agent 588 00:30:44,956 --> 00:30:47,536 Speaker 2: who cares about the process, that they have knowledge of 589 00:30:47,576 --> 00:30:50,576 Speaker 2: the situation too, And you can use that to try 590 00:30:50,616 --> 00:30:53,456 Speaker 2: to engage with them about what's going on by asking questions. 591 00:30:53,616 --> 00:30:55,736 Speaker 2: And I think that this is something that psychologists are 592 00:30:55,796 --> 00:30:58,716 Speaker 2: learning so much about kids, which is that their main 593 00:30:58,896 --> 00:31:03,856 Speaker 2: goal is really about being an agentive person in the world. Like, 594 00:31:03,876 --> 00:31:05,686 Speaker 2: their main goal is to think of themselves as adults, 595 00:31:05,736 --> 00:31:08,486 Speaker 2: especially teenagers. This is some of the lovely work of 596 00:31:08,686 --> 00:31:11,246 Speaker 2: UT Austin Professor David Yeager here, who has this lovely 597 00:31:11,266 --> 00:31:13,586 Speaker 2: book called 10 to 25, where he argues that if 598 00:31:13,606 --> 00:31:16,706 Speaker 2: you understand that your kid's main motivational goal between this 599 00:31:16,766 --> 00:31:19,466 Speaker 2: period of age 10 to age 25 is to just 600 00:31:19,486 --> 00:31:22,506 Speaker 2: like be as agentive as they can, and you use 601 00:31:22,586 --> 00:31:24,936 Speaker 2: that as an insight, then that affects a lot of 602 00:31:24,996 --> 00:31:27,236 Speaker 2: what you give them to do, right? Treat them like agent, 603 00:31:27,276 --> 00:31:29,156 Speaker 2: treat them like they know what they're doing and, you know, 604 00:31:29,196 --> 00:31:31,316 Speaker 2: help them and problem solve with them because they're like 605 00:31:31,336 --> 00:31:33,656 Speaker 2: a newish agent that doesn't know as much, but you 606 00:31:33,676 --> 00:31:35,956 Speaker 2: can kind of help them and get them going and 607 00:31:35,996 --> 00:31:38,846 Speaker 2: have them collaborate with you to troubleshoot. And sometimes when 608 00:31:38,866 --> 00:31:40,926 Speaker 2: you use this process, what you often find is like, 609 00:31:41,446 --> 00:31:44,166 Speaker 2: kids are thinking about this in sophisticated ways. And they 610 00:31:44,206 --> 00:31:46,656 Speaker 2: might even have come up with their own strategies. They 611 00:31:46,696 --> 00:31:48,936 Speaker 2: may be good strategies, they might not be, but you 612 00:31:48,976 --> 00:31:50,176 Speaker 2: can kind of work through that. 613 00:31:50,556 --> 00:31:51,376 Speaker 1: And so that's kind of. 614 00:31:51,356 --> 00:31:54,176 Speaker 2: Step number one of collaborative troubleshooting is like ask questions 615 00:31:54,276 --> 00:31:55,756 Speaker 2: that you don't know the answer to, where you're not 616 00:31:55,816 --> 00:31:57,776 Speaker 2: sitting there thinking that you know the answer. And then 617 00:31:57,816 --> 00:32:00,406 Speaker 2: step two is validate what they've come up with. Like, oh, 618 00:32:00,466 --> 00:32:03,186 Speaker 2: you use a rule where you only engage with TikTok 619 00:32:03,266 --> 00:32:05,606 Speaker 2: after you do your homework. Or you use a rule 620 00:32:05,666 --> 00:32:07,736 Speaker 2: where you like, I don't know, try to use a 621 00:32:07,816 --> 00:32:10,516 Speaker 2: particular LLM because you think that one's better than another one, 622 00:32:10,536 --> 00:32:13,016 Speaker 2: whatever it is, right? I'm so glad you're thinking about 623 00:32:13,056 --> 00:32:15,566 Speaker 2: it creatively. Now can we troubleshoot together and see if 624 00:32:15,606 --> 00:32:18,126 Speaker 2: that's the best solution or talk through it? And that 625 00:32:18,186 --> 00:32:20,626 Speaker 2: allows your kids to think that they have a role. 626 00:32:20,706 --> 00:32:22,846 Speaker 2: They have an agentive role in the decision they've made. 627 00:32:23,226 --> 00:32:24,666 Speaker 2: So this is kind of the flip side of the 628 00:32:24,726 --> 00:32:26,866 Speaker 2: hard boundaries. Sometimes we just need hard boundaries, like no 629 00:32:26,906 --> 00:32:29,746 Speaker 2: ice cream after dinner, and that helps kids. But sometimes, 630 00:32:29,806 --> 00:32:31,606 Speaker 2: especially when it's something you don't know about, it's helpful 631 00:32:31,646 --> 00:32:34,226 Speaker 2: to ask them how they're thinking about it because they 632 00:32:34,266 --> 00:32:34,686 Speaker 2: might have. 633 00:32:34,586 --> 00:32:35,506 Speaker 1: Their own solutions. 634 00:32:35,726 --> 00:32:38,286 Speaker 2: Katherine Price, whose book I mentioned before, has a new 635 00:32:38,306 --> 00:32:41,936 Speaker 2: book out with Jonathan Haidt. It's called The Amazing Generations. 636 00:32:41,956 --> 00:32:44,926 Speaker 2: We're playing on Jonathan Haidt's book, The Anciest Generation for Adults. 637 00:32:45,306 --> 00:32:48,306 Speaker 2: The Amazing Generation tells kids, like, you are in control 638 00:32:48,346 --> 00:32:49,126 Speaker 2: of your own destiny. 639 00:32:49,246 --> 00:32:50,066 Speaker 1: You are agentive. 640 00:32:50,446 --> 00:32:52,506 Speaker 2: And here's what these technology companies are trying. 641 00:32:52,406 --> 00:32:53,686 Speaker 1: To do to you. Do you like that? 642 00:32:53,926 --> 00:32:56,326 Speaker 2: No, no, like, rebellious kid wants that. And so it's like, well, 643 00:32:56,346 --> 00:32:58,326 Speaker 2: how can you fight back? So I think this is 644 00:32:58,366 --> 00:33:00,166 Speaker 2: something else we can be thinking of as we think 645 00:33:00,226 --> 00:33:02,706 Speaker 2: about the future is like, how can we marshal kids 646 00:33:02,766 --> 00:33:05,656 Speaker 2: to be part of these solutions and to recognize that 647 00:33:05,756 --> 00:33:07,736 Speaker 2: they can take action in their own mental health, which 648 00:33:07,796 --> 00:33:11,996 Speaker 2: is helpful. It's time for another break, but when we return, 649 00:33:12,156 --> 00:33:15,626 Speaker 2: I'll share my favorite two science-backed strategies for finding happiness 650 00:33:15,666 --> 00:33:20,286 Speaker 2: and hope in an increasingly anxiety-provoking world. Plus, Bruce and 651 00:33:20,306 --> 00:33:23,146 Speaker 2: I take questions from the audience. More from our live 652 00:33:23,206 --> 00:33:35,956 Speaker 2: conversation at South by Southwest EDU after these messages. I 653 00:33:35,996 --> 00:33:38,656 Speaker 2: wanted to kind of end with two strategies that I 654 00:33:38,696 --> 00:33:41,876 Speaker 2: think are helpful for us to teach the young people 655 00:33:41,956 --> 00:33:44,486 Speaker 2: that we work with, but also for the people who 656 00:33:44,516 --> 00:33:46,586 Speaker 2: are working with young people who are often feeling the 657 00:33:46,606 --> 00:33:50,586 Speaker 2: brunt of responsibility for that. And one is the strategy 658 00:33:50,606 --> 00:33:54,176 Speaker 2: of really thinking about and accepting our negative emotions. This 659 00:33:54,196 --> 00:33:55,796 Speaker 2: gets back to something that Bruce and I had talked 660 00:33:55,836 --> 00:33:58,216 Speaker 2: about before, this idea that a lot of our use 661 00:33:58,276 --> 00:34:01,596 Speaker 2: of some of these technologies is these moments of like when. 662 00:34:01,496 --> 00:34:02,596 Speaker 1: We're not feeling so hot. 663 00:34:02,916 --> 00:34:05,656 Speaker 2: When we're like struggling to get a work task started, 664 00:34:05,716 --> 00:34:08,316 Speaker 2: that's when we turn to an LLM tool sometimes. When 665 00:34:08,336 --> 00:34:10,736 Speaker 2: we're kind of just feeling a little bored or feeling 666 00:34:10,776 --> 00:34:12,756 Speaker 2: a little anxious, that's when we tend to go into 667 00:34:12,776 --> 00:34:14,596 Speaker 2: like social media doom scrolling mode. 668 00:34:14,616 --> 00:34:15,496 Speaker 1: Our kids do this too. 669 00:34:16,116 --> 00:34:17,726 Speaker 2: And I think one of the things we don't do 670 00:34:17,756 --> 00:34:20,486 Speaker 2: a great service of is just telling our young people that, like, 671 00:34:20,706 --> 00:34:23,846 Speaker 2: those emotions are normal, and there are strategies you can 672 00:34:23,966 --> 00:34:27,086 Speaker 2: use to sit with them. These are practices in the 673 00:34:27,126 --> 00:34:30,316 Speaker 2: research literature which are referred to as radical acceptance, where 674 00:34:30,336 --> 00:34:32,756 Speaker 2: you just sit and say, yeah, feeling a little. 675 00:34:32,676 --> 00:34:33,376 Speaker 1: Anxious right now. 676 00:34:33,716 --> 00:34:36,716 Speaker 2: And you get so curious about it in your acceptance 677 00:34:36,736 --> 00:34:39,336 Speaker 2: that you pay attention, like, oh, my chest is tight, 678 00:34:39,456 --> 00:34:42,926 Speaker 2: my brow is furrowing, I feel a real strong urge to, like, 679 00:34:42,946 --> 00:34:44,526 Speaker 2: hop on my phone and look at something. 680 00:34:44,976 --> 00:34:47,546 Speaker 1: You don't have to act on those. You just notice them. 681 00:34:48,086 --> 00:34:50,506 Speaker 2: And this turns out as a skill that we can build. 682 00:34:50,586 --> 00:34:54,706 Speaker 2: In fact, radical acceptance practices are used in jobs, for example, 683 00:34:54,746 --> 00:34:57,426 Speaker 2: where people experience lots of burnout, things like palliative care 684 00:34:57,466 --> 00:34:58,286 Speaker 2: workers and so on. 685 00:34:58,666 --> 00:35:00,846 Speaker 1: And the studies show that they're really effective at. 686 00:35:00,866 --> 00:35:03,586 Speaker 2: Letting you Be there and sit with those negative emotions, 687 00:35:03,846 --> 00:35:05,696 Speaker 2: but not act on them in ways that might be 688 00:35:05,756 --> 00:35:06,176 Speaker 2: hurting you. 689 00:35:06,196 --> 00:35:07,856 Speaker 1: And so that's skill number one. 690 00:35:07,876 --> 00:35:10,376 Speaker 2: I think we need to teach our young people and 691 00:35:10,396 --> 00:35:13,176 Speaker 2: maybe ourselves, especially in this age of toxic positivity that 692 00:35:13,216 --> 00:35:15,076 Speaker 2: folks are seeing on social media, we need to know 693 00:35:15,096 --> 00:35:16,696 Speaker 2: it's okay to be bored for a little bit. 694 00:35:16,716 --> 00:35:18,686 Speaker 1: It's okay to feel a little anxious. It's okay to 695 00:35:18,706 --> 00:35:19,276 Speaker 1: feel negative. 696 00:35:19,846 --> 00:35:22,206 Speaker 2: Second one that I think we need to teach our 697 00:35:22,366 --> 00:35:24,286 Speaker 2: young people, and this one might be the one that 698 00:35:24,306 --> 00:35:27,886 Speaker 2: we especially need to teach ourselves, is a little bit 699 00:35:27,966 --> 00:35:31,446 Speaker 2: more self-compassion. I feel like the educators in this room 700 00:35:31,486 --> 00:35:33,006 Speaker 2: are here in part because you want the solution, you 701 00:35:33,026 --> 00:35:34,066 Speaker 2: want to know what to do, you want to make 702 00:35:34,106 --> 00:35:36,846 Speaker 2: it better. And that means we can be beating ourselves 703 00:35:36,926 --> 00:35:39,746 Speaker 2: up about this stuff, right? And that same very like 704 00:35:39,826 --> 00:35:42,246 Speaker 2: beating ourselves up trait that we are using is the 705 00:35:42,286 --> 00:35:44,566 Speaker 2: same thing that's causing a lot of young people to 706 00:35:44,606 --> 00:35:46,746 Speaker 2: turn to these platforms and these tools and these. 707 00:35:46,666 --> 00:35:49,706 Speaker 1: Moments where they're attacking themselves and so on. 708 00:35:50,226 --> 00:35:52,246 Speaker 2: And so strategy number two that I think we all 709 00:35:52,306 --> 00:35:54,976 Speaker 2: need to navigate this tricky time is a little bit 710 00:35:54,996 --> 00:35:59,966 Speaker 2: more self-compassion. The psychologist Kristen Neff talks about self-compassion as 711 00:36:00,026 --> 00:36:03,646 Speaker 2: having a few different features. One, it's mindfully noticing your emotions. 712 00:36:04,106 --> 00:36:07,266 Speaker 2: I'm feeling anxious. I'm feeling bored. I'm feeling whatever it is. 713 00:36:07,826 --> 00:36:11,666 Speaker 2: Second is a strategy of common humanity where you said, yeah, 714 00:36:11,856 --> 00:36:14,356 Speaker 2: totally normal to feel bored, totally normal to feel anxious, 715 00:36:14,696 --> 00:36:16,756 Speaker 2: totally normal as a parent to be really freaked out 716 00:36:16,796 --> 00:36:19,216 Speaker 2: about what's happening with the landscape of technology right now. 717 00:36:19,696 --> 00:36:22,586 Speaker 2: It's a normal human experience. What can I do to 718 00:36:22,626 --> 00:36:25,046 Speaker 2: be kind to myself? What can I take off my plate? 719 00:36:25,426 --> 00:36:29,446 Speaker 2: These steps together allow you to navigate these kind of tricky, 720 00:36:29,586 --> 00:36:32,966 Speaker 2: anxiety-provoking times in ways that make you feel better. So 721 00:36:32,986 --> 00:36:35,346 Speaker 2: they're great strategies that I think if you're an educator, 722 00:36:35,366 --> 00:36:38,266 Speaker 2: I would literally bring into the classroom, give your kids 723 00:36:38,326 --> 00:36:42,066 Speaker 2: like these radical acceptance practices, these self-compassion practices. And I 724 00:36:42,086 --> 00:36:43,996 Speaker 2: think they're great things to have in your back pocket 725 00:36:44,026 --> 00:36:46,916 Speaker 2: when you yourself might need one of these practices to 726 00:36:46,976 --> 00:36:49,796 Speaker 2: navigate the tough time that we are in. But now 727 00:36:49,856 --> 00:36:51,856 Speaker 2: we are at the point of questions and all of 728 00:36:51,896 --> 00:36:54,266 Speaker 2: a sudden they are popping up on our screen so 729 00:36:54,286 --> 00:36:56,846 Speaker 2: we can look at them. And so this is a 730 00:36:56,886 --> 00:37:00,206 Speaker 2: question Nina asked. I think this one's for Bruce. So 731 00:37:00,366 --> 00:37:03,346 Speaker 2: which companies are getting things right? Or at least which 732 00:37:03,406 --> 00:37:05,666 Speaker 2: are approaching the future with the idea of doing things 733 00:37:05,786 --> 00:37:06,686 Speaker 2: right by humans? 734 00:37:07,916 --> 00:37:13,296 Speaker 3: Well, on AI, it's definitely anthropic. They've made clear from 735 00:37:13,336 --> 00:37:15,216 Speaker 3: the outset that they want to learn the lessons of 736 00:37:15,256 --> 00:37:19,016 Speaker 3: social media and And they're trying to create an experience 737 00:37:19,056 --> 00:37:24,356 Speaker 3: that's not addictive, that is kind of genuinely compassionate with 738 00:37:24,956 --> 00:37:30,086 Speaker 3: the user. Anthropic doesn't have accounts for kids under 18. 739 00:37:30,086 --> 00:37:33,546 Speaker 3: They're kind of setting the standard for how a company 740 00:37:33,806 --> 00:37:37,796 Speaker 3: should behave. And one of the frustrating things about these 741 00:37:37,876 --> 00:37:42,056 Speaker 3: debates for the past 10, 15 years is that the 742 00:37:42,116 --> 00:37:45,366 Speaker 3: public has been overwhelmingly on one side of the debate. 743 00:37:45,426 --> 00:37:48,446 Speaker 3: That was true on social media, true everything about tech. 744 00:37:48,506 --> 00:37:52,046 Speaker 3: I've worked on political issues and there's never been a 745 00:37:52,126 --> 00:37:56,866 Speaker 3: more bipartisan coalition than what we saw first on privacy, 746 00:37:56,986 --> 00:38:00,516 Speaker 3: then on social media, now on AI. What the companies 747 00:38:00,556 --> 00:38:04,236 Speaker 3: need to realize is the market is over here, they 748 00:38:04,276 --> 00:38:05,036 Speaker 3: need to get there too. 749 00:38:07,056 --> 00:38:08,936 Speaker 1: So here's a good one I think for this audience. 750 00:38:09,476 --> 00:38:13,016 Speaker 2: How can we better support teachers in responsibly and effectively 751 00:38:13,216 --> 00:38:17,796 Speaker 2: using technology, including AI, in the classroom? Rapid innovation seems 752 00:38:17,876 --> 00:38:19,736 Speaker 2: to be outpacing trading. 753 00:38:20,396 --> 00:38:24,956 Speaker 3: Well, I think first it's important to remind teachers that 754 00:38:25,376 --> 00:38:26,896 Speaker 3: they're the ones who will make all the difference in 755 00:38:26,936 --> 00:38:29,816 Speaker 3: the classroom, that the AI is just a tool. There 756 00:38:29,856 --> 00:38:33,006 Speaker 3: have been lots of them over the years, but ultimately 757 00:38:33,626 --> 00:38:37,226 Speaker 3: kids are going to respond more to where they lead 758 00:38:37,286 --> 00:38:41,616 Speaker 3: them and inspire them. than the technology itself. I think 759 00:38:41,656 --> 00:38:43,836 Speaker 3: there are plenty of ways where technology can take some 760 00:38:43,856 --> 00:38:46,786 Speaker 3: of the hassle out of any job, including teaching. It's 761 00:38:46,866 --> 00:38:50,046 Speaker 3: useful in planning lessons and doing the stuff that is 762 00:38:50,306 --> 00:38:54,526 Speaker 3: rote work that makes being a teacher often so exhausting. 763 00:38:55,346 --> 00:38:57,106 Speaker 3: These kids are gonna learn how to use AI. You 764 00:38:57,146 --> 00:38:58,546 Speaker 3: don't have to teach them to do that. They're gonna 765 00:38:58,586 --> 00:39:02,276 Speaker 3: be immersed in this forever. But what you can teach 766 00:39:02,336 --> 00:39:05,036 Speaker 3: them is the stuff that only a human can do. 767 00:39:05,076 --> 00:39:08,166 Speaker 3: I mean, the bright side, I guess, if you want 768 00:39:08,186 --> 00:39:10,026 Speaker 3: to look at it that way, is there are a 769 00:39:10,046 --> 00:39:15,026 Speaker 3: lot of jobs that can be replaced by AI. But 770 00:39:15,546 --> 00:39:18,846 Speaker 3: what teachers do is something that only humans can do well. 771 00:39:19,126 --> 00:39:21,226 Speaker 3: And so make the most of that. 772 00:39:25,426 --> 00:39:27,586 Speaker 2: And I think just getting back to this importance of 773 00:39:27,896 --> 00:39:31,976 Speaker 2: noticing the happiness benefits of doing the hard stuff, right? 774 00:39:32,176 --> 00:39:34,376 Speaker 2: As a nerdy academic, I spend a lot of time 775 00:39:34,436 --> 00:39:37,546 Speaker 2: getting reward from doing the hard academic stuff. And I 776 00:39:37,586 --> 00:39:39,796 Speaker 2: definitely wouldn't have learned that if it weren't for early 777 00:39:39,836 --> 00:39:42,896 Speaker 2: teachers who allowed me to see that benefit so remembering 778 00:39:42,936 --> 00:39:45,476 Speaker 2: that you have that power to let people get some 779 00:39:45,556 --> 00:39:48,256 Speaker 2: insight into the reward benefits of doing the hard. 780 00:39:48,156 --> 00:39:50,496 Speaker 1: Stuff I think that that is huge. 781 00:39:52,536 --> 00:39:55,556 Speaker 2: These questions are challenging my middle-aged eyesight because I'm like 782 00:39:55,656 --> 00:39:58,366 Speaker 2: looking at the thing, but I think I'll take one 783 00:39:58,506 --> 00:40:01,926 Speaker 2: from Alison to kind of wrap up. So in a 784 00:40:02,026 --> 00:40:06,006 Speaker 2: world where those in power make policy-based decisions on profits, 785 00:40:06,606 --> 00:40:10,816 Speaker 2: AI and the decline of human thinking and creativity feels inevitable. 786 00:40:11,156 --> 00:40:13,576 Speaker 2: What can politicians do? And the reason I like this 787 00:40:13,696 --> 00:40:18,056 Speaker 2: one is the inevitable part. Bruce, tell me why it's 788 00:40:18,096 --> 00:40:20,356 Speaker 2: not inevitable. Tell me why we can take action to 789 00:40:20,456 --> 00:40:22,136 Speaker 2: fix this before it gets worse. 790 00:40:22,976 --> 00:40:26,876 Speaker 3: It's definitely not inevitable. As I said, 80% of the 791 00:40:26,916 --> 00:40:30,256 Speaker 3: American people hate this stuff. So this war is not lost. 792 00:40:30,696 --> 00:40:36,136 Speaker 3: It needs to be bent to match what humans really want. 793 00:40:36,476 --> 00:40:39,096 Speaker 3: You know, we'll get there. We'll sort this out. But 794 00:40:39,436 --> 00:40:42,076 Speaker 3: those of you who are educators shouldn't feel like you're 795 00:40:42,356 --> 00:40:43,396 Speaker 3: alone in this battle. 796 00:40:43,416 --> 00:40:46,146 Speaker 2: And I think Another thing I'll add to that is 797 00:40:46,206 --> 00:40:50,476 Speaker 2: that whenever things feel inevitable, there are easy psychological hacks 798 00:40:50,516 --> 00:40:52,576 Speaker 2: we can do to develop a little bit more hope. 799 00:40:52,996 --> 00:40:55,546 Speaker 2: If you need a great prime on this, really recommend 800 00:40:55,586 --> 00:40:58,226 Speaker 2: a book called Hope for Cynics by Jamil Zaki, a 801 00:40:58,266 --> 00:41:01,386 Speaker 2: Stanford professor, where he talks about why we should have 802 00:41:01,446 --> 00:41:03,666 Speaker 2: more hope than we think, that even in these tough times, 803 00:41:03,706 --> 00:41:05,146 Speaker 2: there's things that are not inevitable. 804 00:41:05,166 --> 00:41:06,246 Speaker 1: We can always take action. 805 00:41:06,286 --> 00:41:08,386 Speaker 2: History has shown us that we can always take action, 806 00:41:08,926 --> 00:41:11,566 Speaker 2: but also how we can build that hope for ourselves. 807 00:41:11,646 --> 00:41:14,636 Speaker 2: And interestingly, one of the ways that we most easily 808 00:41:14,696 --> 00:41:18,866 Speaker 2: build hope is by being agentive ourselves. You're teaching the 809 00:41:18,946 --> 00:41:20,986 Speaker 2: deep truth of human psychology, which is that we want 810 00:41:21,026 --> 00:41:23,186 Speaker 2: to be agents, we get reward from being agents, and 811 00:41:23,226 --> 00:41:25,646 Speaker 2: it feels good. One way that it feels good is 812 00:41:25,686 --> 00:41:27,946 Speaker 2: that we develop more hope. You get hope by taking 813 00:41:28,026 --> 00:41:30,336 Speaker 2: action on this stuff. If you're a parent, talk to 814 00:41:30,356 --> 00:41:32,916 Speaker 2: your school board about rules for this stuff. If you're 815 00:41:32,936 --> 00:41:36,456 Speaker 2: a human in society that has a political government over you, 816 00:41:36,656 --> 00:41:39,056 Speaker 2: call someone in that political government. Tell them you care 817 00:41:39,096 --> 00:41:41,756 Speaker 2: about this stuff. Talk to the people in your community 818 00:41:41,836 --> 00:41:45,576 Speaker 2: about this stuff. Talk to your kids. Those actions, whenever 819 00:41:45,696 --> 00:41:47,856 Speaker 2: things feel inevitable, you feel like, well, it's not even 820 00:41:47,896 --> 00:41:50,726 Speaker 2: worth doing them. But once you do them, two things happen. 821 00:41:50,946 --> 00:41:54,066 Speaker 2: One is that your attitude towards those actions change. You 822 00:41:54,086 --> 00:41:55,906 Speaker 2: feel like, oh, I can make a little bit of 823 00:41:55,946 --> 00:41:57,166 Speaker 2: a difference. I just made a little bit of a 824 00:41:57,206 --> 00:42:00,426 Speaker 2: difference today. So you wind up boosting up your hope muscle. 825 00:42:00,746 --> 00:42:02,746 Speaker 2: But the second thing is that, like, when you take 826 00:42:02,786 --> 00:42:06,146 Speaker 2: those tiny actions, that moves the needle. Those tiny actions 827 00:42:06,246 --> 00:42:08,166 Speaker 2: are the only thing that has ever moved the needle 828 00:42:08,296 --> 00:42:09,976 Speaker 2: in all the good stuff that we've done as a 829 00:42:10,016 --> 00:42:12,916 Speaker 2: human species. So you're just kind of contributing little one 830 00:42:12,936 --> 00:42:15,096 Speaker 2: to drop to do that. And you boost your mental 831 00:42:15,136 --> 00:42:17,126 Speaker 2: health at the same time. One thing that we know 832 00:42:17,166 --> 00:42:19,726 Speaker 2: is we need lots of structural changes for all this stuff. 833 00:42:20,106 --> 00:42:21,946 Speaker 2: But the research also shows that one of the ways 834 00:42:21,986 --> 00:42:25,196 Speaker 2: we get towards structural change is taking care of our 835 00:42:25,236 --> 00:42:27,976 Speaker 2: own attitudes and our own happiness and our own mental health. 836 00:42:28,216 --> 00:42:29,496 Speaker 1: So putting all this. 837 00:42:29,416 --> 00:42:32,176 Speaker 2: Stuff together it makes sense that you're taking action to 838 00:42:32,236 --> 00:42:35,156 Speaker 2: feel better, and then that can become a virtuous cycle 839 00:42:35,256 --> 00:42:37,056 Speaker 2: instead of all these vicious cycles. 840 00:42:36,796 --> 00:42:37,676 Speaker 1: That we've been talking about. 841 00:42:37,776 --> 00:42:40,296 Speaker 2: But we are out of time, so I wanna leave 842 00:42:40,336 --> 00:42:43,666 Speaker 2: you with one hopeful thought, which is that if the 843 00:42:43,726 --> 00:42:46,706 Speaker 2: tech industry is gonna move fast and break things, it 844 00:42:46,746 --> 00:42:48,986 Speaker 2: is up to everybody in this room to act fast 845 00:42:49,086 --> 00:42:52,726 Speaker 2: and fix things. Our kids' mental health and their wellbeing 846 00:42:52,786 --> 00:42:54,946 Speaker 2: hang in the balance. So Bruce and I hope we've 847 00:42:54,966 --> 00:42:56,626 Speaker 2: given you some solutions to do just that. 848 00:42:56,946 --> 00:42:57,686 Speaker 1: Thank you all so much. 849 00:43:01,676 --> 00:43:04,426 Speaker 2: A big thanks to South by Southwest EDU for making 850 00:43:04,446 --> 00:43:08,026 Speaker 2: this conversation possible. To learn more about Bruce Reed's work 851 00:43:08,046 --> 00:43:11,026 Speaker 2: with Common Sense Media and to get more practical advice 852 00:43:11,126 --> 00:43:13,586 Speaker 2: on helping kids thrive as AI becomes a bigger and 853 00:43:13,606 --> 00:43:18,096 Speaker 2: bigger part of their lives, check out commonsensemedia.org slash AI. 854 00:43:19,016 --> 00:43:21,796 Speaker 2: Next week, we're continuing our series of live conversations from 855 00:43:21,816 --> 00:43:24,376 Speaker 2: the past year. And this time, I'll be taking you 856 00:43:24,476 --> 00:43:27,396 Speaker 2: to the Aspen Ideas Festival, where I sat down with 857 00:43:27,436 --> 00:43:30,526 Speaker 2: two of the experts I mentioned in today's episode, science 858 00:43:30,546 --> 00:43:34,586 Speaker 2: journalist Catherine Price, and social psychologist Liz Dunn. But instead 859 00:43:34,626 --> 00:43:38,166 Speaker 2: of worrying about the potential perils of AI, next week, Catherine, Liz, 860 00:43:38,206 --> 00:43:40,836 Speaker 2: and I will be focused on something a little more lighthearted, 861 00:43:41,296 --> 00:43:45,576 Speaker 2: the psychological importance of having fun. That's all next week 862 00:43:45,836 --> 00:43:47,586 Speaker 2: on The Happiness Lab with me, Dr. 863 00:43:47,626 --> 00:43:48,346 Speaker 1: Laurie Santos.