1 00:00:15,516 --> 00:00:15,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:24,236 --> 00:00:26,516 Speaker 2: We've been celebrating five years of the Happiness Lab by 3 00:00:26,556 --> 00:00:30,036 Speaker 2: resurfacing five of my favorite episodes of the show. We've 4 00:00:30,076 --> 00:00:31,836 Speaker 2: already gone all the way back to when we started 5 00:00:31,836 --> 00:00:34,796 Speaker 2: out in twenty nineteen, but this final episode brings us 6 00:00:34,796 --> 00:00:37,396 Speaker 2: nearly up to date, and my producer Ryan Dilly has 7 00:00:37,396 --> 00:00:39,796 Speaker 2: it ready to go. Ryan, what's episode number five? 8 00:00:39,956 --> 00:00:42,036 Speaker 3: So this is from twenty twenty three, and it's called 9 00:00:42,076 --> 00:00:44,956 Speaker 3: The Introverts Guide to Extraversion. So why do you want 10 00:00:44,956 --> 00:00:45,676 Speaker 3: me to get this one out? 11 00:00:45,796 --> 00:00:47,676 Speaker 2: Oh? This is one of my favorites because it's also 12 00:00:47,716 --> 00:00:50,756 Speaker 2: about the benefits of social connection, even for people who 13 00:00:50,876 --> 00:00:52,756 Speaker 2: might not think they get a lot of benefit out 14 00:00:52,756 --> 00:00:53,516 Speaker 2: of social connection. 15 00:00:53,756 --> 00:00:55,716 Speaker 3: It was a really popular episode, as I remember, and 16 00:00:55,756 --> 00:00:57,956 Speaker 3: did really well in terms of download but it also 17 00:00:57,996 --> 00:01:00,436 Speaker 3: prompted lots of complaints. Why didn't that work? 18 00:01:00,556 --> 00:01:02,556 Speaker 2: Well? I think it triverts really felt that we were 19 00:01:02,596 --> 00:01:05,276 Speaker 2: attacking them, but that wasn't really the case. All we 20 00:01:05,276 --> 00:01:08,036 Speaker 2: were doing was showing the benefits of social connection, even 21 00:01:08,116 --> 00:01:11,236 Speaker 2: for folks who have persons that might not really resonate 22 00:01:11,236 --> 00:01:14,036 Speaker 2: with social connection. We got to interview this lovely guest, 23 00:01:14,116 --> 00:01:17,076 Speaker 2: Jessica Pan, who talked about her book Sorry I'm late. 24 00:01:17,156 --> 00:01:19,996 Speaker 2: I didn't want to come The Introverts Guide to Extroverting 25 00:01:20,476 --> 00:01:23,196 Speaker 2: and she did this lovely experiment where as an introvert, 26 00:01:23,236 --> 00:01:26,436 Speaker 2: she tried engaging in a little bit more extroverted activities 27 00:01:26,436 --> 00:01:28,876 Speaker 2: for a whole year, and she found there are many 28 00:01:28,876 --> 00:01:30,956 Speaker 2: more happiness benefits than she expected. 29 00:01:31,156 --> 00:01:32,916 Speaker 3: I mean, this is a subject really dear to my heart. 30 00:01:33,156 --> 00:01:35,716 Speaker 3: I've always been quite nervous about talking to new people, 31 00:01:35,716 --> 00:01:37,676 Speaker 3: and I don't think like doing this recording now, So 32 00:01:37,796 --> 00:01:39,676 Speaker 3: I worked really hard to try and overcome some with that. 33 00:01:39,836 --> 00:01:41,076 Speaker 3: I think it's been really good for me. 34 00:01:41,396 --> 00:01:41,636 Speaker 4: Yeah. 35 00:01:42,076 --> 00:01:44,756 Speaker 3: I was wondering if your behavior has changed because of 36 00:01:44,796 --> 00:01:45,476 Speaker 3: this episode of twime. 37 00:01:45,516 --> 00:01:47,436 Speaker 2: Oh for sure, As you know, I'm not the kind 38 00:01:47,476 --> 00:01:49,556 Speaker 2: of person that tends to talk to people. But in 39 00:01:49,596 --> 00:01:51,996 Speaker 2: part because of this, I realized that there are many 40 00:01:52,036 --> 00:01:55,996 Speaker 2: more benefits than even I expected. And so it's definitely 41 00:01:55,996 --> 00:01:58,276 Speaker 2: been something that's affected how I act. 42 00:01:58,036 --> 00:01:58,476 Speaker 5: In the world. 43 00:01:58,516 --> 00:01:59,796 Speaker 1: And I hope it might give our. 44 00:01:59,676 --> 00:02:03,316 Speaker 2: Listeners some food for thought as well. And so here 45 00:02:03,476 --> 00:02:06,876 Speaker 2: is the last episode in our birthday celebration reruns, The 46 00:02:06,916 --> 00:02:08,436 Speaker 2: Introverts Guide to Extroversion. 47 00:02:12,556 --> 00:02:14,916 Speaker 1: I feel like college was a real struggle for me. 48 00:02:15,316 --> 00:02:19,116 Speaker 1: This is author Jessica Pan. I always felt like, when 49 00:02:19,516 --> 00:02:22,076 Speaker 1: you know college kids would go out and party or 50 00:02:22,076 --> 00:02:24,756 Speaker 1: go to clubs, I thought we were all secretly waiting 51 00:02:24,836 --> 00:02:27,156 Speaker 1: to like come home and then you know, get our pajamas. 52 00:02:27,356 --> 00:02:30,356 Speaker 2: Jessica had many close friends in college, she couldn't always 53 00:02:30,396 --> 00:02:33,556 Speaker 2: relate to how outgoing her buddies were. Her besties seemed 54 00:02:33,596 --> 00:02:36,556 Speaker 2: to seek out noisy parties and busy dance floors, but 55 00:02:36,636 --> 00:02:39,796 Speaker 2: Jessica was much more at home with small gatherings. 56 00:02:39,196 --> 00:02:40,516 Speaker 1: And intimate conversations. 57 00:02:41,036 --> 00:02:43,636 Speaker 2: Jessica's friends adored her, but they couldn't always relate to 58 00:02:43,676 --> 00:02:47,076 Speaker 2: her preferences and just assumed Jessica would want to go big. 59 00:02:47,156 --> 00:02:49,716 Speaker 2: To celebrate. When she turned twenty two. 60 00:02:49,516 --> 00:02:51,716 Speaker 1: They threw me this surprise birthday party. 61 00:02:52,116 --> 00:02:55,476 Speaker 2: Friends and family members gathered secretly and waited in Jessica's 62 00:02:55,556 --> 00:02:57,796 Speaker 2: dark bedroom, ready to pop out and scream. 63 00:02:57,996 --> 00:03:00,996 Speaker 1: As soon as she got home and I walked in, 64 00:03:01,236 --> 00:03:05,756 Speaker 1: there was like fifty people staring at me, and I 65 00:03:05,836 --> 00:03:09,756 Speaker 1: burst into tears. It was my worst nightmare. That's one 66 00:03:09,796 --> 00:03:12,276 Speaker 1: of the times I felt very much like, Okay, I 67 00:03:12,316 --> 00:03:14,876 Speaker 1: am slightly different from my extroverted friends. 68 00:03:15,276 --> 00:03:18,756 Speaker 2: But it wasn't just those extroverted friends Jessica also felt 69 00:03:18,756 --> 00:03:20,436 Speaker 2: different from the people she grew up with. 70 00:03:20,676 --> 00:03:22,876 Speaker 1: I often say that my parents are like the two 71 00:03:22,996 --> 00:03:26,756 Speaker 1: chattiest people in America because they absolutely love talking to 72 00:03:26,756 --> 00:03:30,516 Speaker 1: strangers to the point where it is embarrassing. You'll be 73 00:03:30,596 --> 00:03:32,956 Speaker 1: in line for a restaurants, or you'll be on the 74 00:03:32,996 --> 00:03:35,196 Speaker 1: plane or anywhere, and my mom is talking to someone, 75 00:03:35,196 --> 00:03:37,076 Speaker 1: and then my dad's joining in, and there it's just, 76 00:03:37,196 --> 00:03:38,956 Speaker 1: I don't know. They're the complete opposite of me. 77 00:03:39,396 --> 00:03:42,076 Speaker 2: Jessica knew her social needs different from the people around her, 78 00:03:42,476 --> 00:03:43,596 Speaker 2: but she wasn't sure why. 79 00:03:44,236 --> 00:03:47,356 Speaker 1: So when I was growing up, the labels introvert and extrovert, 80 00:03:47,676 --> 00:03:50,036 Speaker 1: they were not these buzzy terms that everybody knew about, 81 00:03:50,116 --> 00:03:51,716 Speaker 1: so I'd never heard of them. And I think I 82 00:03:51,756 --> 00:03:54,716 Speaker 1: found out in my twenties what an introvert was, and 83 00:03:54,756 --> 00:03:56,396 Speaker 1: I immediately recognized myself. 84 00:03:56,556 --> 00:04:01,076 Speaker 2: The American Psychological Association defines introversion as an orientation towards 85 00:04:01,076 --> 00:04:04,116 Speaker 2: the internal, private world of one's inner thoughts and feelings, 86 00:04:04,396 --> 00:04:07,756 Speaker 2: rather than toward the outer world of people. Compared to extroverts, 87 00:04:07,916 --> 00:04:11,356 Speaker 2: introverts are more with your reserved, quiet and deliberate. 88 00:04:11,516 --> 00:04:15,276 Speaker 1: Someone who concentrates really well is a good listener likes 89 00:04:15,316 --> 00:04:18,636 Speaker 1: to be alone, gets exhausted, over stimulated by lots of people, 90 00:04:19,076 --> 00:04:22,436 Speaker 1: and I felt really seen by that definition. I would 91 00:04:22,516 --> 00:04:24,836 Speaker 1: never raise my hand in a class. That would never happen. 92 00:04:25,196 --> 00:04:27,316 Speaker 1: I would fake sick if there was a presentation I 93 00:04:27,356 --> 00:04:29,356 Speaker 1: had to give. I think I got a solo to 94 00:04:29,396 --> 00:04:31,316 Speaker 1: sing in a choir and I didn't tell my mom 95 00:04:31,356 --> 00:04:33,916 Speaker 1: about it, and I just pretended that I had a fever. 96 00:04:34,196 --> 00:04:36,276 Speaker 1: I don't even think she knows about that to this day. 97 00:04:36,996 --> 00:04:40,236 Speaker 2: And so Jessica began referring to herself as an introvert 98 00:04:40,276 --> 00:04:43,396 Speaker 2: with a capital I. It quickly became a badge of honor. 99 00:04:43,876 --> 00:04:47,036 Speaker 1: But I began to use that label of introvert as 100 00:04:47,156 --> 00:04:49,756 Speaker 1: an excuse to say no to anything that gave me 101 00:04:49,876 --> 00:04:51,356 Speaker 1: any sort of social anxiety. 102 00:04:51,836 --> 00:04:55,076 Speaker 2: Jessica sat out important social events, even ones that she 103 00:04:55,156 --> 00:04:57,476 Speaker 2: knew might be good for her or for her career. 104 00:04:57,996 --> 00:05:00,396 Speaker 1: I didn't want to give speeches. I didn't want to 105 00:05:00,436 --> 00:05:02,876 Speaker 1: host parties. I didn't want to lead workshops because I 106 00:05:02,916 --> 00:05:05,716 Speaker 1: thought to myself, no, I'm an introvert. Introverts don't do 107 00:05:05,796 --> 00:05:08,356 Speaker 1: things like that. And I was completely limiting who I 108 00:05:08,436 --> 00:05:09,316 Speaker 1: was and who I could. 109 00:05:09,276 --> 00:05:13,036 Speaker 2: Come at times Jessica did question what she was passing up, 110 00:05:13,276 --> 00:05:14,916 Speaker 2: like the time she went to a friend's wedding. 111 00:05:15,036 --> 00:05:17,196 Speaker 1: The bride stood up and she gave this amazing speech 112 00:05:17,276 --> 00:05:19,716 Speaker 1: and she was crying and her parents were crying, and 113 00:05:19,756 --> 00:05:21,796 Speaker 1: I felt like, why didn't I give a speech at 114 00:05:21,876 --> 00:05:24,116 Speaker 1: my wedding? And I didn't do it because I was 115 00:05:24,196 --> 00:05:27,236 Speaker 1: too anxious. I was scared I would not sound articulate. 116 00:05:27,276 --> 00:05:28,756 Speaker 1: I would be scared that I wouldn't look good. I 117 00:05:28,876 --> 00:05:31,516 Speaker 1: was scared that I embarrassed myself, when actually I wish 118 00:05:31,556 --> 00:05:33,796 Speaker 1: I had done that, because I think the benefits could 119 00:05:33,796 --> 00:05:36,516 Speaker 1: have tremendously outweighed the negative consequences. 120 00:05:36,836 --> 00:05:40,676 Speaker 2: But the negative consequences of Jessica's introversion became even clearer 121 00:05:40,796 --> 00:05:42,756 Speaker 2: when she and her husband moved to London. 122 00:05:43,396 --> 00:05:46,636 Speaker 1: It's notoriously not the most friendly place in the entire world, 123 00:05:46,836 --> 00:05:49,796 Speaker 1: and it's hard to make friends as an adult. And 124 00:05:49,916 --> 00:05:52,236 Speaker 1: also I was a freelancer, so I was working from home, 125 00:05:52,276 --> 00:05:55,076 Speaker 1: so it seemed absolutely impossible to make these connections and 126 00:05:55,116 --> 00:05:55,916 Speaker 1: get out of my shell. 127 00:05:56,316 --> 00:05:58,836 Speaker 2: And that was when Jessica decided to embark on an 128 00:05:58,836 --> 00:06:03,036 Speaker 2: innovative personal experiment, one that wound up changing her life forever. 129 00:06:03,676 --> 00:06:06,076 Speaker 1: I was thinking, if I really want to commit to this, 130 00:06:06,636 --> 00:06:07,396 Speaker 1: I have to do this. 131 00:06:09,196 --> 00:06:11,396 Speaker 2: Listen to other episodes in this new season on getting 132 00:06:11,396 --> 00:06:14,636 Speaker 2: more social. Then you've probably already heard about the benefits 133 00:06:14,676 --> 00:06:18,076 Speaker 2: of connecting with other people. Pretty much every study ever 134 00:06:18,156 --> 00:06:21,156 Speaker 2: done on the relationship between well being and social interaction 135 00:06:21,516 --> 00:06:24,556 Speaker 2: shows that more people time makes us happier. But what 136 00:06:24,636 --> 00:06:28,316 Speaker 2: if you, like Jessica, dread parties and crowds and spontaneous 137 00:06:28,316 --> 00:06:31,996 Speaker 2: conversations with strangers. Are you doomed to less happiness than 138 00:06:32,036 --> 00:06:34,636 Speaker 2: your more talkative friends. Or is there a way that 139 00:06:34,676 --> 00:06:37,636 Speaker 2: the introverts among us can also get the happiness benefits 140 00:06:37,636 --> 00:06:44,356 Speaker 2: that come from more social connection. Our minds are constantly 141 00:06:44,356 --> 00:06:46,396 Speaker 2: telling us what to do to be happy, But what 142 00:06:46,436 --> 00:06:48,876 Speaker 2: if our minds are wrong? What if our minds are 143 00:06:48,956 --> 00:06:51,276 Speaker 2: lying to us, leading us away from what will really 144 00:06:51,276 --> 00:06:54,316 Speaker 2: make us happy. The good news is the understanding the 145 00:06:54,356 --> 00:06:56,396 Speaker 2: science of the mind can point us all back in 146 00:06:56,436 --> 00:06:59,796 Speaker 2: the right direction. You're listening to the Happiness Lab with 147 00:06:59,916 --> 00:07:01,036 Speaker 2: doctor Laurie Santo's. 148 00:07:06,076 --> 00:07:09,316 Speaker 4: Hi, Laurie, I'm having trouble connecting my mic, so give 149 00:07:09,316 --> 00:07:09,676 Speaker 4: you just a. 150 00:07:09,676 --> 00:07:12,676 Speaker 2: Sec I wanted to unpack what psychologists have learned about 151 00:07:12,676 --> 00:07:15,796 Speaker 2: the science of introversion and the unintended consequences it can 152 00:07:15,836 --> 00:07:18,356 Speaker 2: have for our happiness. And that meant there was one 153 00:07:18,396 --> 00:07:20,516 Speaker 2: person in the field I really needed to call. 154 00:07:20,796 --> 00:07:23,436 Speaker 6: My computer's rejecting the Bluetooth connection. 155 00:07:23,516 --> 00:07:26,876 Speaker 2: Sonya Lubermirski is a professor at the University of California 156 00:07:26,916 --> 00:07:29,956 Speaker 2: at Riverside. She's the author of The How of Happiness, 157 00:07:30,156 --> 00:07:33,076 Speaker 2: A New Approach to Getting the Life You Want. Sonya 158 00:07:33,156 --> 00:07:35,636 Speaker 2: is a world expert on the science of happiness, so 159 00:07:35,756 --> 00:07:38,196 Speaker 2: not surprisingly, she's very much in demand. 160 00:07:38,436 --> 00:07:40,476 Speaker 6: I've been crazy busy, so I'm like, this is like 161 00:07:40,916 --> 00:07:42,756 Speaker 6: I don't even have time to say hi, Like I bet, 162 00:07:42,796 --> 00:07:44,516 Speaker 6: I'm going from one meeting to another. 163 00:07:44,916 --> 00:07:47,036 Speaker 2: I was super grateful that Sonya made time for us 164 00:07:47,316 --> 00:07:49,516 Speaker 2: and that she put up with a few technical problems. 165 00:07:49,956 --> 00:07:52,116 Speaker 6: Do you can you just keep talking? It's working that great. 166 00:07:52,396 --> 00:07:54,916 Speaker 2: In order to share a key finding from her decades 167 00:07:54,956 --> 00:07:57,236 Speaker 2: of work in positive psychology. 168 00:07:57,116 --> 00:08:00,316 Speaker 6: After many years of research, we landed on this cliche, 169 00:08:00,396 --> 00:08:02,796 Speaker 6: which is that the key to happiness is really connection, 170 00:08:02,996 --> 00:08:04,716 Speaker 6: and so if you want to increase happiness, you want 171 00:08:04,756 --> 00:08:06,836 Speaker 6: to make people feel more connected. 172 00:08:07,396 --> 00:08:08,596 Speaker 1: It really is that simple. 173 00:08:08,956 --> 00:08:11,676 Speaker 2: You will be happier if you interact with more people 174 00:08:12,156 --> 00:08:13,636 Speaker 2: even if you're an introvert. 175 00:08:14,116 --> 00:08:16,036 Speaker 6: What's interesting is clear if the studies have shown that 176 00:08:16,116 --> 00:08:21,156 Speaker 6: actually both extrots and introverts benefit by more social interaction. 177 00:08:21,916 --> 00:08:26,276 Speaker 2: Most introverts predict that social interaction will feel exhausting, anxiety provoking, 178 00:08:26,436 --> 00:08:29,236 Speaker 2: and crummy, so they don't engage in this activity nearly 179 00:08:29,276 --> 00:08:32,076 Speaker 2: as much as extroverts do, and the science shows that 180 00:08:32,116 --> 00:08:35,916 Speaker 2: this choice can have big negative consequences for introverts. Happiness 181 00:08:36,316 --> 00:08:39,276 Speaker 2: research since the nineteen eighties has shown that, on average, 182 00:08:39,636 --> 00:08:44,076 Speaker 2: introverts are less happy than extroverts, presumably because they consistently 183 00:08:44,116 --> 00:08:47,436 Speaker 2: miss out on the well being benefits that social connection provides. 184 00:08:47,996 --> 00:08:51,316 Speaker 2: But that leads to an even bigger problem, because introversion 185 00:08:51,516 --> 00:08:53,876 Speaker 2: isn't just some flippant label we throw on when we 186 00:08:53,916 --> 00:08:56,516 Speaker 2: don't feel like going to a party. Introversion is one 187 00:08:56,556 --> 00:08:59,596 Speaker 2: of the five core dimensions that make up our personalities, 188 00:08:59,956 --> 00:09:05,596 Speaker 2: the other four being openness, conscientiousness, agreeableness, and neuroticism. Psychologists 189 00:09:05,636 --> 00:09:08,716 Speaker 2: have long assumed that these so called Big five personality 190 00:09:08,756 --> 00:09:12,116 Speaker 2: traits are stable. They don't change all that much across 191 00:09:12,116 --> 00:09:16,196 Speaker 2: our lifetimes or across different situations. If you were outgoing 192 00:09:16,236 --> 00:09:19,276 Speaker 2: in the center of attention as a teenager, then psychologists 193 00:09:19,276 --> 00:09:22,756 Speaker 2: would assume that you're still likely to be extroverted decades later. 194 00:09:23,116 --> 00:09:25,716 Speaker 2: But if you spent your teen years like Jessica Pan 195 00:09:25,956 --> 00:09:28,956 Speaker 2: wishing you could run home to be alone, well, most 196 00:09:28,956 --> 00:09:31,156 Speaker 2: psychologists would probably assume. 197 00:09:30,916 --> 00:09:33,196 Speaker 1: That you're unlikely to be a social butterfly today. 198 00:09:33,796 --> 00:09:36,676 Speaker 2: But does that mean that introverts are doomed by their personality, 199 00:09:37,076 --> 00:09:39,956 Speaker 2: destined never to share the joy of connection that extroverts 200 00:09:39,996 --> 00:09:40,716 Speaker 2: take for granted? 201 00:09:41,316 --> 00:09:42,436 Speaker 1: Sonia didn't think. 202 00:09:42,476 --> 00:09:45,396 Speaker 4: So, what is a trade? Is basically ahavior? You know, 203 00:09:45,476 --> 00:09:47,836 Speaker 4: like when you do something over and over again. If 204 00:09:47,876 --> 00:09:50,036 Speaker 4: I'm like always making my bed and I'm organized and 205 00:09:50,076 --> 00:09:53,596 Speaker 4: I'm always on time, people say, oh, Sonia's h conscientiousness. 206 00:09:53,596 --> 00:09:56,476 Speaker 4: But if you're not high on constanciousness, theoretically you can 207 00:09:56,556 --> 00:09:58,836 Speaker 4: try to make your meetings on time and make your 208 00:09:58,836 --> 00:10:01,836 Speaker 4: bed every morning, and so the same thing for extroversion. 209 00:10:02,196 --> 00:10:04,876 Speaker 2: Sonia reason that introverts could engage in what she called 210 00:10:04,956 --> 00:10:08,676 Speaker 2: volitional personality change. If they simply behaved in a more 211 00:10:08,716 --> 00:10:12,156 Speaker 2: extravert way, maybe they could reap the happiness benefits that 212 00:10:12,236 --> 00:10:16,356 Speaker 2: come with having a more extroverted personality. To test this theory, 213 00:10:16,596 --> 00:10:19,676 Speaker 2: Sonya teamed up with her graduate student Seth Margolis and 214 00:10:19,756 --> 00:10:22,196 Speaker 2: recruited over one hundred college students to take part in 215 00:10:22,236 --> 00:10:25,596 Speaker 2: a new study. Some of these students were naturally introverted, 216 00:10:25,876 --> 00:10:29,356 Speaker 2: whereas others were more extroverted, but all of the subjects 217 00:10:29,436 --> 00:10:32,876 Speaker 2: were randomly divided into two groups. The first group was 218 00:10:32,916 --> 00:10:35,116 Speaker 2: told that for the next week they needed to be 219 00:10:35,156 --> 00:10:39,676 Speaker 2: as talkative, assertive, and spontaneous as possible. Essentially, they had 220 00:10:39,676 --> 00:10:43,036 Speaker 2: to act extroverted, but the second group was told to 221 00:10:43,076 --> 00:10:46,916 Speaker 2: do just the opposite. They were asked to act as deliberate, quiet, 222 00:10:46,956 --> 00:10:50,636 Speaker 2: and reserved as possible. They were going to be more introverted. 223 00:10:51,916 --> 00:10:54,636 Speaker 2: Both groups then filled out surveys to measure their overall 224 00:10:54,676 --> 00:10:57,716 Speaker 2: well being and how much positive emotion they experienced over 225 00:10:57,716 --> 00:10:58,116 Speaker 2: the week. 226 00:10:58,556 --> 00:11:00,196 Speaker 1: So what did Sonya find. 227 00:11:00,876 --> 00:11:03,956 Speaker 6: We found that both introversied extroverts during the week that 228 00:11:03,996 --> 00:11:07,476 Speaker 6: they were asked to act more extroverted got hugely happier. 229 00:11:07,876 --> 00:11:10,116 Speaker 2: Sonia says the boost and happy piness she observed in 230 00:11:10,116 --> 00:11:12,876 Speaker 2: this be more extroverted condition was one of the largest 231 00:11:12,916 --> 00:11:17,276 Speaker 2: effects she's observed in decades of studying happiness interventions. But 232 00:11:17,476 --> 00:11:20,996 Speaker 2: just as acting more extroverted had a significant upside, Sonya 233 00:11:21,036 --> 00:11:24,356 Speaker 2: also observed an effect of doing the opposite. Subjects who 234 00:11:24,356 --> 00:11:27,956 Speaker 2: were asked to act reserved in shy showed statistically reduced 235 00:11:28,036 --> 00:11:31,716 Speaker 2: levels of well being. Acting introverted for a week appears 236 00:11:31,756 --> 00:11:35,716 Speaker 2: to significantly reduce our happiness, But Sonya says the most 237 00:11:35,716 --> 00:11:39,156 Speaker 2: shocking finding from her study, especially for researchers in the 238 00:11:39,156 --> 00:11:43,676 Speaker 2: field of personality psychology, was that subjects were able to 239 00:11:43,716 --> 00:11:47,316 Speaker 2: do what she asked them to. People could change their 240 00:11:47,316 --> 00:11:51,196 Speaker 2: personality traits if they tried, at least for short periods 241 00:11:51,236 --> 00:11:54,996 Speaker 2: of time, and that finding was very good news to 242 00:11:55,076 --> 00:11:56,996 Speaker 2: author and introvert Jessica Pan. 243 00:11:57,396 --> 00:12:00,276 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, so we can change, we don't 244 00:12:00,276 --> 00:12:02,796 Speaker 1: always have to be the same, and yeah, I found 245 00:12:02,796 --> 00:12:03,596 Speaker 1: that really freeing. 246 00:12:04,076 --> 00:12:06,516 Speaker 2: When we last left Jessica, she was sad and lonely 247 00:12:06,556 --> 00:12:08,796 Speaker 2: in her new life in the UK, and that's when 248 00:12:08,836 --> 00:12:11,476 Speaker 2: she began and reading about the psychology of introverts and 249 00:12:11,556 --> 00:12:15,116 Speaker 2: happened upon Sonya's new study. Learning that people could volitionally 250 00:12:15,236 --> 00:12:18,836 Speaker 2: change their personality traits led Jessica to try something radical. 251 00:12:19,196 --> 00:12:21,516 Speaker 1: I thought, look, I'm not that happy right now in 252 00:12:21,556 --> 00:12:24,196 Speaker 1: my life, and I'm a hardcore introvert. What would happen 253 00:12:24,596 --> 00:12:26,436 Speaker 1: if I live like the other half of the world. 254 00:12:26,676 --> 00:12:27,756 Speaker 1: What could I gain from that? 255 00:12:28,196 --> 00:12:31,636 Speaker 2: Jessica decided to begin her own experiment, but rather than 256 00:12:31,716 --> 00:12:35,036 Speaker 2: behaving more spontaneously and assertively for just a week, as 257 00:12:35,036 --> 00:12:37,916 Speaker 2: Sonya's subjects had done, Jessica pledged to act like an 258 00:12:37,956 --> 00:12:39,596 Speaker 2: extrovert for an entire year. 259 00:12:40,276 --> 00:12:41,196 Speaker 1: Her twelve month. 260 00:12:41,036 --> 00:12:43,716 Speaker 2: Journey turned into a new book, Sorry I'm late. I 261 00:12:43,756 --> 00:12:46,716 Speaker 2: didn't want to come one. Introverts Year of Saying Yes, 262 00:12:47,636 --> 00:12:50,316 Speaker 2: and Jessica's big Year of saying Yes didn't just involve 263 00:12:50,396 --> 00:12:53,436 Speaker 2: becoming a bit more talkative. Jessica committed to trying out 264 00:12:53,476 --> 00:12:56,076 Speaker 2: some of the most terrifying social encounters. 265 00:12:55,636 --> 00:13:00,316 Speaker 1: Possible, talking to strangers, public speaking, doing improv comedy, things 266 00:13:00,356 --> 00:13:02,316 Speaker 1: like that. That were my nightmares and. 267 00:13:02,236 --> 00:13:03,836 Speaker 2: As you'll hear when we get back from the break, 268 00:13:04,076 --> 00:13:06,916 Speaker 2: Jessica found that pushing herself to make every social connection 269 00:13:06,996 --> 00:13:10,876 Speaker 2: possible required getting more vulnerable then even she expected. 270 00:13:11,156 --> 00:13:13,316 Speaker 1: I would need to just go for it and embarrass 271 00:13:13,356 --> 00:13:15,516 Speaker 1: myself again and again and again. 272 00:13:16,036 --> 00:13:17,716 Speaker 2: The Happiness Lab We'll be right back. 273 00:13:24,076 --> 00:13:26,516 Speaker 1: So I had this massive fear of talking to strangers. 274 00:13:26,556 --> 00:13:27,556 Speaker 1: I just couldn't do it. 275 00:13:27,796 --> 00:13:31,516 Speaker 2: Introvert Jessica pan was ready for an entire year of extroverting. 276 00:13:32,036 --> 00:13:35,556 Speaker 2: But where should she start. Jessica figured that some expert 277 00:13:35,556 --> 00:13:39,276 Speaker 2: advice might help her. First call went out to psychotherapist 278 00:13:39,396 --> 00:13:42,076 Speaker 2: and Boston University professor Stefan Hoffmann. 279 00:13:42,476 --> 00:13:47,316 Speaker 1: He specializes in exposure therapy, so he'll have his patients 280 00:13:47,676 --> 00:13:50,956 Speaker 1: do really humiliating things like stand on the street and 281 00:13:51,076 --> 00:13:53,996 Speaker 1: just sing, or ask someone on the subway for like 282 00:13:54,036 --> 00:13:57,716 Speaker 1: two hundred dollars, things where they are guaranteed to be rejected. 283 00:13:58,196 --> 00:14:00,956 Speaker 2: Jessica explained to Stefan that she was terrified of putting 284 00:14:00,956 --> 00:14:03,756 Speaker 2: herself out there, especially with people she didn't know. 285 00:14:04,356 --> 00:14:07,116 Speaker 1: If I was approaching a stranger, my heart would raise. 286 00:14:07,396 --> 00:14:09,436 Speaker 1: I'd feel like I was gonna throw up. I just 287 00:14:09,636 --> 00:14:13,836 Speaker 1: had so much anxiety around it. Stefan didn't advocate baby steps. 288 00:14:14,396 --> 00:14:17,236 Speaker 1: He wanted Jessica to dive head first into the social 289 00:14:17,276 --> 00:14:20,996 Speaker 1: deep end, and he said, okay, so you live in 290 00:14:21,036 --> 00:14:23,636 Speaker 1: London and you're scared of strangers. It's what I would 291 00:14:23,636 --> 00:14:25,596 Speaker 1: have you do is I would have you ask a 292 00:14:25,636 --> 00:14:28,556 Speaker 1: really stupid question to a stranger. I would have you 293 00:14:28,596 --> 00:14:31,676 Speaker 1: go up to somebody and say, excuse me, is there 294 00:14:31,676 --> 00:14:34,716 Speaker 1: a Queen of England? And if so, what's her name, 295 00:14:35,156 --> 00:14:37,316 Speaker 1: and as soon as he said this, I wanted to 296 00:14:37,316 --> 00:14:39,436 Speaker 1: throw up, and I was thinking, there's no way I'm 297 00:14:39,476 --> 00:14:40,076 Speaker 1: going to do that. 298 00:14:40,876 --> 00:14:44,516 Speaker 2: Stefan was making Jessica ask strangers pretty much the dumbest 299 00:14:44,556 --> 00:14:47,316 Speaker 2: question you could pose to a Londoner because back then 300 00:14:47,436 --> 00:14:49,516 Speaker 2: everyone knew that there was in fact a Queen of 301 00:14:49,516 --> 00:14:52,316 Speaker 2: England and her name was Elizabeth. It was an encounter 302 00:14:52,396 --> 00:14:54,436 Speaker 2: that was set up to make Jessica look as stupid 303 00:14:54,436 --> 00:14:57,476 Speaker 2: as possible, but as Stefan explained, that was kind of 304 00:14:57,516 --> 00:14:57,916 Speaker 2: the point. 305 00:14:58,276 --> 00:15:00,996 Speaker 1: Look, you know, no one's going to fire you, you're 306 00:15:01,036 --> 00:15:03,316 Speaker 1: not going to get arrested, your husband's not going to 307 00:15:03,436 --> 00:15:05,516 Speaker 1: leave you, you're not going to get thrown in jail, 308 00:15:05,996 --> 00:15:07,956 Speaker 1: so you're just gonna look a little bit stupid. 309 00:15:08,596 --> 00:15:11,156 Speaker 2: And to comp I owned her discomfort. Jessica headed to 310 00:15:11,196 --> 00:15:13,556 Speaker 2: one of London's least welcoming locations. 311 00:15:15,436 --> 00:15:17,236 Speaker 1: So I think one of the most awkward places to 312 00:15:17,236 --> 00:15:20,716 Speaker 1: talk to stranger in London is on the underground because 313 00:15:20,796 --> 00:15:22,276 Speaker 1: people they don't want to be bothered. 314 00:15:22,676 --> 00:15:25,756 Speaker 2: Jessica was ready to push herself, just like Stuffhanhead advised, 315 00:15:26,076 --> 00:15:29,036 Speaker 2: so she sought out the least approachable stranger she could find. 316 00:15:29,356 --> 00:15:32,356 Speaker 2: She picked a busy looking businessman in an expensive suit. 317 00:15:32,516 --> 00:15:35,876 Speaker 1: I was like, excuse me, and he was like what, 318 00:15:36,396 --> 00:15:39,236 Speaker 1: And I said, is there a Queen of England? And 319 00:15:39,276 --> 00:15:42,996 Speaker 1: he was like the Queen of England? And I said, yeah, 320 00:15:43,036 --> 00:15:46,916 Speaker 1: who is she? And he said it's Victoria and then 321 00:15:46,956 --> 00:15:47,636 Speaker 1: he walked off. 322 00:15:48,236 --> 00:15:51,996 Speaker 2: That wasn't the answer she was expecting. Victoria hadn't been 323 00:15:52,076 --> 00:15:54,676 Speaker 2: queen for over one hundred years. Was the man walking 324 00:15:54,796 --> 00:15:58,436 Speaker 2: Jessica giving a stupid answer to her stupid question. Jessica 325 00:15:58,516 --> 00:16:01,676 Speaker 2: wasn't sure, so she fled down another scary looking businessman 326 00:16:01,836 --> 00:16:03,796 Speaker 2: and posed the same question again, and. 327 00:16:03,756 --> 00:16:06,156 Speaker 1: He also said Victoria. And I didn't know if it 328 00:16:06,196 --> 00:16:08,236 Speaker 1: was they were just messing with me or what was happening. 329 00:16:08,596 --> 00:16:10,396 Speaker 1: But then I flagged down a few more women and 330 00:16:10,436 --> 00:16:11,556 Speaker 1: they told me it was Elizabeth. 331 00:16:11,876 --> 00:16:14,956 Speaker 2: Looking idiotic in front of total strangers in a noisy, 332 00:16:14,996 --> 00:16:18,676 Speaker 2: dirty subway station might not sound like fun, especially for 333 00:16:18,756 --> 00:16:22,756 Speaker 2: an introvert, but the experience left Jessica feeling elated. 334 00:16:23,196 --> 00:16:28,116 Speaker 1: I felt like I could fly. I felt insanely exhilarated 335 00:16:28,156 --> 00:16:31,676 Speaker 1: because it was so embarrassing and there are other people listening. 336 00:16:31,756 --> 00:16:35,436 Speaker 1: It was my worst fear, and Stefan was right. Nothing 337 00:16:35,476 --> 00:16:36,636 Speaker 1: bad happened. 338 00:16:36,476 --> 00:16:39,476 Speaker 2: To take her extroverting to the next level. Jessica tagged 339 00:16:39,476 --> 00:16:42,396 Speaker 2: in yet another expert, one who may sound kind of 340 00:16:42,396 --> 00:16:45,756 Speaker 2: familiar if you've listened to other episodes in this special season. 341 00:16:45,916 --> 00:16:47,516 Speaker 1: Should call him Nick? Or what should I call him? 342 00:16:47,596 --> 00:16:49,516 Speaker 5: I'm Nicholas Epley, you can call me Nick. 343 00:16:49,676 --> 00:16:52,436 Speaker 2: Nick is a professor of behavioral science at the University 344 00:16:52,436 --> 00:16:54,556 Speaker 2: of Chicago's Booth School of Business. 345 00:16:54,796 --> 00:16:57,476 Speaker 1: I had read his research that said that when two 346 00:16:57,556 --> 00:17:00,636 Speaker 1: commuters are forced to talk to each other, they are 347 00:17:00,676 --> 00:17:02,556 Speaker 1: happier than they would have anticipated. 348 00:17:02,956 --> 00:17:05,156 Speaker 2: You might remember this study from an episode we ran 349 00:17:05,276 --> 00:17:09,356 Speaker 2: in our very first season entitled Mistakenly Seeking Solitude. In 350 00:17:09,396 --> 00:17:12,356 Speaker 2: the experiment, Nick found passengers who were about to hop 351 00:17:12,396 --> 00:17:14,796 Speaker 2: on a train from the Chicago suburbs on their way 352 00:17:14,796 --> 00:17:15,156 Speaker 2: to work. 353 00:17:15,476 --> 00:17:17,836 Speaker 5: We gave them an envelope that had a five dollars 354 00:17:17,836 --> 00:17:19,836 Speaker 5: Starbucks gift card in it, which turns out to be 355 00:17:19,876 --> 00:17:22,436 Speaker 5: the most valuable incentive that we know on the planet. 356 00:17:22,556 --> 00:17:24,836 Speaker 5: People will do anything for a five dollars Starbucks gift card, 357 00:17:24,876 --> 00:17:26,476 Speaker 5: including doctor strangers on trains. 358 00:17:26,676 --> 00:17:28,916 Speaker 2: Nick then told one group to spend the entire train 359 00:17:29,036 --> 00:17:32,316 Speaker 2: ride enjoying their solitude. They weren't allowed to talk to anyone, 360 00:17:32,876 --> 00:17:35,276 Speaker 2: which is pretty much what most of us usually do. 361 00:17:35,356 --> 00:17:37,676 Speaker 5: And almost nobody talks to strangers on the train. 362 00:17:38,116 --> 00:17:40,516 Speaker 2: But Nick asked a second group of commuters to do 363 00:17:40,596 --> 00:17:42,956 Speaker 2: something a little more radical. They had to spend the 364 00:17:43,076 --> 00:17:44,876 Speaker 2: entire train ride talking to someone. 365 00:17:45,196 --> 00:17:47,596 Speaker 5: We asked them to try to make a connection with 366 00:17:47,716 --> 00:17:50,116 Speaker 5: the person who sits down next to you this morning 367 00:17:50,236 --> 00:17:52,196 Speaker 5: on the train. Try to get to know something about 368 00:17:52,436 --> 00:17:55,036 Speaker 5: him or her. So they were going to have a conversation. 369 00:17:55,196 --> 00:17:57,676 Speaker 2: After the ride. Nick surveyed the commuters to find out 370 00:17:57,676 --> 00:18:01,276 Speaker 2: how they were all feeling. The results were striking. People 371 00:18:01,316 --> 00:18:03,716 Speaker 2: who were forced to spend their entire train ride talking 372 00:18:03,756 --> 00:18:06,476 Speaker 2: to strangers felt happier than the ones that were told 373 00:18:06,516 --> 00:18:09,116 Speaker 2: to enjoy their solitude. When I first read that recon, 374 00:18:09,556 --> 00:18:11,596 Speaker 2: I was like, what is he talking about? That sounds 375 00:18:11,676 --> 00:18:15,556 Speaker 2: insane to me. Nick says that Jessica's not the only 376 00:18:15,636 --> 00:18:16,596 Speaker 2: one with that reaction. 377 00:18:17,076 --> 00:18:19,036 Speaker 5: I get a lot of pushback on this because the 378 00:18:19,076 --> 00:18:20,676 Speaker 5: expectations are so strong. 379 00:18:21,076 --> 00:18:24,876 Speaker 2: Nick has even tested these mistaken expectations directly. In a 380 00:18:24,916 --> 00:18:28,476 Speaker 2: second study, Subjects were asked which would feel better talking 381 00:18:28,556 --> 00:18:31,236 Speaker 2: to some random stranger on the train or just enjoying 382 00:18:31,236 --> 00:18:31,556 Speaker 2: the ride. 383 00:18:31,596 --> 00:18:32,156 Speaker 1: In silence. 384 00:18:32,796 --> 00:18:36,956 Speaker 2: People overwhelmingly thought that being in the talkative condition would suck. 385 00:18:37,356 --> 00:18:40,476 Speaker 2: They predicted the exact opposite of what Nick's results showed. 386 00:18:41,156 --> 00:18:43,996 Speaker 2: Like Jessica, most of us think that connecting with strangers 387 00:18:44,076 --> 00:18:46,676 Speaker 2: will feel awkward, but we're wrong. 388 00:18:47,036 --> 00:18:48,796 Speaker 5: That's not what people's experience actually is. 389 00:18:49,556 --> 00:18:52,836 Speaker 2: Nick's subjects also mispredicted how much the stranger they chatted 390 00:18:52,876 --> 00:18:55,036 Speaker 2: with would enjoy the experience of being talked to. 391 00:18:55,476 --> 00:18:59,436 Speaker 5: That is, they underestimated how social other people were. And 392 00:18:59,596 --> 00:19:02,636 Speaker 5: notice that belief then becomes a kind of self fulfilling prophecy. 393 00:19:02,636 --> 00:19:04,676 Speaker 5: If I think, Glori, you don't want to talk to me, 394 00:19:05,596 --> 00:19:08,076 Speaker 5: then you know I'll sit down next to you at 395 00:19:08,076 --> 00:19:10,836 Speaker 5: a conference, say I won't talk to you. You will 396 00:19:10,836 --> 00:19:13,356 Speaker 5: sit there and we'll not talk to me. You'll look 397 00:19:13,396 --> 00:19:15,116 Speaker 5: to me, and because I'm not talking to you, you 398 00:19:15,156 --> 00:19:17,236 Speaker 5: will infer that I'm not interested in talking to you either, 399 00:19:17,236 --> 00:19:19,876 Speaker 5: and we'll both then sit there in silence, next to 400 00:19:19,916 --> 00:19:23,556 Speaker 5: each other, and we will both then confirm our expectations 401 00:19:23,596 --> 00:19:25,636 Speaker 5: that talking to you would have been unpleasant. We don't 402 00:19:25,636 --> 00:19:28,596 Speaker 5: ever get data that would tell us that those beliefs 403 00:19:28,596 --> 00:19:30,036 Speaker 5: are wrong because we don't try it. 404 00:19:30,556 --> 00:19:33,196 Speaker 2: But author Jessica Pan was ready to try it. She 405 00:19:33,276 --> 00:19:36,236 Speaker 2: met with Nick and quickly realized that he really practices 406 00:19:36,276 --> 00:19:36,996 Speaker 2: what he preaches. 407 00:19:37,436 --> 00:19:39,596 Speaker 1: Nicholas has no issue talking to strangers. 408 00:19:39,796 --> 00:19:43,396 Speaker 2: Nick talks with people on trains and planes and buses. 409 00:19:43,716 --> 00:19:47,036 Speaker 2: He chit chats with waiters and baristas and cafes and 410 00:19:47,156 --> 00:19:49,196 Speaker 2: cashiers at his local grocery store. 411 00:19:49,476 --> 00:19:52,596 Speaker 5: We know all of them now, often by name. They 412 00:19:52,636 --> 00:19:56,276 Speaker 5: know our kids, and that's fun. Once you start the conversation, 413 00:19:56,276 --> 00:19:58,236 Speaker 5: it's pretty easy to make it go. That's not hard. 414 00:19:58,236 --> 00:20:00,516 Speaker 5: It's starting it that's hard. It's like a speed bump 415 00:20:00,556 --> 00:20:02,556 Speaker 5: at the top of a hill, and you have to 416 00:20:02,596 --> 00:20:05,316 Speaker 5: get over this speed bump to actually get things going. 417 00:20:05,836 --> 00:20:08,196 Speaker 2: Speed bump what Nick thought of as a bump in 418 00:20:08,236 --> 00:20:11,316 Speaker 2: the road a mountain. To an introvert like Jessica, I 419 00:20:11,316 --> 00:20:11,876 Speaker 2: felt like he. 420 00:20:11,796 --> 00:20:14,716 Speaker 1: Could not relate to my anxiety at all, and I 421 00:20:14,756 --> 00:20:17,756 Speaker 1: couldn't relate to his total nonchalance about chatting with people. 422 00:20:18,196 --> 00:20:21,036 Speaker 2: But Nick did share one fact about social connection that 423 00:20:21,116 --> 00:20:25,276 Speaker 2: put Jessica a little more at ease. He said, look, Jessica, 424 00:20:25,796 --> 00:20:29,916 Speaker 2: nobody waves, but everybody waves back. Like you have to 425 00:20:29,916 --> 00:20:31,596 Speaker 2: be the first person to make a move, and if 426 00:20:31,636 --> 00:20:33,996 Speaker 2: you do that almost one hundred percent of the time 427 00:20:34,036 --> 00:20:36,236 Speaker 2: people will If you wave to someone, they'll wave back. 428 00:20:36,236 --> 00:20:38,916 Speaker 2: You say hi to someone, they'll say hi back. Jessica 429 00:20:38,956 --> 00:20:41,676 Speaker 2: began to realize how rarely she put in the work 430 00:20:41,796 --> 00:20:43,636 Speaker 2: to make that all important first move. 431 00:20:44,196 --> 00:20:46,756 Speaker 1: So I feel like in the past, I'd go to 432 00:20:46,796 --> 00:20:50,036 Speaker 1: a party and I'd linger in the hallway or the doorway. 433 00:20:50,156 --> 00:20:52,916 Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to go fully in. I would hover 434 00:20:52,996 --> 00:20:56,276 Speaker 1: near the cheeseboard or the drinks and the kitchen, or 435 00:20:56,596 --> 00:20:58,956 Speaker 1: look at my phone, and then I would probably leave. 436 00:20:59,436 --> 00:21:01,596 Speaker 2: But if Jessica was committed to being the one to 437 00:21:01,636 --> 00:21:05,436 Speaker 2: open a conversation, what she wondered should she start talking about? 438 00:21:05,756 --> 00:21:08,556 Speaker 2: Are there particular topics that are more effective for really 439 00:21:08,556 --> 00:21:12,316 Speaker 2: connecting people. In the rare cases in which Jessica did 440 00:21:12,356 --> 00:21:15,796 Speaker 2: talk with someone new, she usually stuck to the easy stuff, 441 00:21:16,196 --> 00:21:18,396 Speaker 2: what Nick calls shallow or surface talk. 442 00:21:18,636 --> 00:21:21,036 Speaker 1: Surface talk is like we talk about our commutes or 443 00:21:21,036 --> 00:21:23,396 Speaker 1: what we had for dinner or the weather. In deep 444 00:21:23,436 --> 00:21:26,076 Speaker 1: talk is our hopes and our dreams and our fears, 445 00:21:26,316 --> 00:21:29,236 Speaker 1: and so much of our life is rooted in just 446 00:21:29,276 --> 00:21:30,956 Speaker 1: doing surface talk. You know, you could see the same 447 00:21:30,956 --> 00:21:33,076 Speaker 1: person every day for ten years and you might not 448 00:21:33,276 --> 00:21:35,396 Speaker 1: actually know what's going on with them because you literally 449 00:21:35,476 --> 00:21:37,036 Speaker 1: just talk about very topical things. 450 00:21:37,316 --> 00:21:39,396 Speaker 2: But Nick has found that there's a much more effective 451 00:21:39,436 --> 00:21:42,156 Speaker 2: style of conversation if your goal is to truly get 452 00:21:42,196 --> 00:21:44,996 Speaker 2: to know someone, to truly connect. It's what he and 453 00:21:45,076 --> 00:21:47,476 Speaker 2: other researchers have called deep conversation. 454 00:21:47,916 --> 00:21:51,516 Speaker 1: It's sharing our human experience of struggling and loneliness and 455 00:21:51,556 --> 00:21:52,996 Speaker 1: things that actually bring us together. 456 00:21:53,276 --> 00:21:55,996 Speaker 2: In one study, Nick asked people to engage either in 457 00:21:56,036 --> 00:21:59,556 Speaker 2: shallow talk talking about the weather or their favorite TV shows, 458 00:22:00,156 --> 00:22:03,156 Speaker 2: or in deep talk. And the deep talk conversation starters 459 00:22:03,236 --> 00:22:06,276 Speaker 2: were pretty heavy, things like can you describe a time 460 00:22:06,316 --> 00:22:09,236 Speaker 2: that you cried in front of another person? And if 461 00:22:09,236 --> 00:22:11,676 Speaker 2: you could undo one mistake you've made in your life, 462 00:22:11,836 --> 00:22:12,476 Speaker 2: what would it be? 463 00:22:13,316 --> 00:22:16,956 Speaker 5: And these deep conversations go much better than people expect 464 00:22:16,996 --> 00:22:20,036 Speaker 5: they will, and they're much less awkward than people expect. 465 00:22:20,236 --> 00:22:24,276 Speaker 5: People pretty dramatically underestimate how much they are going to 466 00:22:24,476 --> 00:22:26,396 Speaker 5: enjoy deep conversation. 467 00:22:27,596 --> 00:22:30,436 Speaker 2: Armed with all of Nick's advice, Jessica threw herself into 468 00:22:30,436 --> 00:22:34,076 Speaker 2: the conversational deep end. She signed up for a professional 469 00:22:34,076 --> 00:22:36,916 Speaker 2: networking event, and rather than hiding away in the corner 470 00:22:36,996 --> 00:22:40,076 Speaker 2: like she'd normally do. She immediately headed over to a 471 00:22:40,116 --> 00:22:44,356 Speaker 2: group of people, started chatting and, going against all her instincts, 472 00:22:44,636 --> 00:22:46,076 Speaker 2: took the conversation deeper. 473 00:22:46,476 --> 00:22:49,556 Speaker 1: I felt like people really responded to that, and they 474 00:22:49,596 --> 00:22:52,596 Speaker 1: would sort of go, oh, this person's here to be real, 475 00:22:52,836 --> 00:22:55,596 Speaker 1: to be honest, to actually make a connection. 476 00:22:56,276 --> 00:22:59,076 Speaker 2: Jessica went from feeling like a shy wallflower to the 477 00:22:59,116 --> 00:23:01,796 Speaker 2: life of the party. I could visibly see the difference 478 00:23:01,836 --> 00:23:02,676 Speaker 2: in people's faces. 479 00:23:02,796 --> 00:23:06,036 Speaker 1: They were having that dopamine hit two because we were connecting, 480 00:23:06,116 --> 00:23:09,716 Speaker 1: we were laughing, we were bonding over something, and I 481 00:23:10,036 --> 00:23:13,116 Speaker 1: realized that we all have the power to steer the 482 00:23:13,116 --> 00:23:16,996 Speaker 1: conversation into something deeper. But Jessica knew that talking was 483 00:23:17,036 --> 00:23:21,036 Speaker 1: only half the battle. She had succeeded in initiating deeper conversation, 484 00:23:21,316 --> 00:23:23,476 Speaker 1: but it couldn't be a one way thing. You need 485 00:23:23,516 --> 00:23:25,396 Speaker 1: to make a person feel like they're being listened to, 486 00:23:25,716 --> 00:23:28,156 Speaker 1: not just waiting for my turn to talk or my 487 00:23:28,276 --> 00:23:30,756 Speaker 1: turn to share my story, but actually listening to them 488 00:23:30,756 --> 00:23:33,956 Speaker 1: and being a part of what they're saying. People like 489 00:23:34,156 --> 00:23:35,556 Speaker 1: feeling paid attention to. 490 00:23:35,716 --> 00:23:35,836 Speaker 4: It. 491 00:23:35,916 --> 00:23:39,836 Speaker 1: Really is this underrated magic skill that we can all have, 492 00:23:40,036 --> 00:23:42,276 Speaker 1: and that really transforms how they treat you because they 493 00:23:42,356 --> 00:23:44,876 Speaker 1: like being treated that way, but they like being treated special. 494 00:23:45,636 --> 00:23:48,236 Speaker 2: Jessica left the event feeling over the moon. She had 495 00:23:48,276 --> 00:23:50,996 Speaker 2: proven to herself that she could not only talk to strangers, 496 00:23:51,236 --> 00:23:54,676 Speaker 2: but also that it felt great. Her experiences inspired her 497 00:23:54,756 --> 00:23:57,636 Speaker 2: to go even more hardcore in her quest to extrovert. 498 00:23:57,916 --> 00:24:00,436 Speaker 1: I'm very much an all or nothing person, So I thought, 499 00:24:00,476 --> 00:24:03,556 Speaker 1: if I'm going to do this insane year of torture 500 00:24:04,036 --> 00:24:06,996 Speaker 1: and extroverting, then I'm not going to leave anything. 501 00:24:06,636 --> 00:24:10,876 Speaker 2: Out exactly what torture was just planning for her introverted self. 502 00:24:11,436 --> 00:24:13,836 Speaker 1: It felt like, Okay, if I can survive that, then 503 00:24:13,876 --> 00:24:14,956 Speaker 1: I can survive anything. 504 00:24:15,316 --> 00:24:18,276 Speaker 2: You'll find out when the happiness lab returns in a moment. 505 00:24:28,476 --> 00:24:30,756 Speaker 1: I think I always thought that to be a good 506 00:24:30,796 --> 00:24:33,396 Speaker 1: public speaker, you need to have total confidence when you 507 00:24:33,436 --> 00:24:36,236 Speaker 1: get on stage and before you even do the thing. 508 00:24:36,316 --> 00:24:38,756 Speaker 2: All if you're an introvert. Jessica Pan had always hated 509 00:24:38,796 --> 00:24:39,316 Speaker 2: speaking in. 510 00:24:39,276 --> 00:24:42,996 Speaker 1: Public when actually it's so obvious, but you have to 511 00:24:43,036 --> 00:24:44,756 Speaker 1: be scared to do it, and then when you survive, 512 00:24:44,996 --> 00:24:48,516 Speaker 1: that's where that confidence comes from, because you survive doing 513 00:24:48,516 --> 00:24:49,236 Speaker 1: the scary thing. 514 00:24:50,316 --> 00:24:52,356 Speaker 2: So for the pinnacle of her ear of acting like 515 00:24:52,396 --> 00:24:55,356 Speaker 2: an extrovert, she decided to push herself to the limit, 516 00:24:55,596 --> 00:24:55,956 Speaker 2: and I. 517 00:24:55,836 --> 00:24:58,516 Speaker 1: Thought, okay, so the final step in this is to 518 00:24:59,196 --> 00:25:03,796 Speaker 1: perform for an audience where they're often encouraged to heckle you. 519 00:25:04,236 --> 00:25:07,516 Speaker 2: Jessica was going to try stand up comedy. She signed 520 00:25:07,596 --> 00:25:09,876 Speaker 2: up for a comedy course. When it came time for 521 00:25:09,916 --> 00:25:13,476 Speaker 2: the first class, she was terrified, so terrified that she 522 00:25:13,516 --> 00:25:16,396 Speaker 2: climbed into bed and assumed the fetal position. Is that 523 00:25:16,516 --> 00:25:19,356 Speaker 2: not what other people do? That feels really natural to me, 524 00:25:19,556 --> 00:25:22,996 Speaker 2: hoping somehow to muster the necessary courage. But that first 525 00:25:22,996 --> 00:25:25,636 Speaker 2: comedy class went well, and in a few weeks it 526 00:25:25,676 --> 00:25:27,156 Speaker 2: was time to perform for real. 527 00:25:27,636 --> 00:25:30,516 Speaker 1: The first show I did was with my other fellow 528 00:25:30,516 --> 00:25:34,876 Speaker 1: classmates and our friends and our partners at this pub 529 00:25:35,116 --> 00:25:38,676 Speaker 1: downstairs in central London, and I was so nervous. I 530 00:25:38,676 --> 00:25:40,756 Speaker 1: felt like, I don't know, I felt like I was 531 00:25:40,796 --> 00:25:43,556 Speaker 1: on fire or something, and in a way, Jessica was 532 00:25:43,596 --> 00:25:44,076 Speaker 1: on fire. 533 00:25:44,516 --> 00:25:45,756 Speaker 2: She got a ton of laughs. 534 00:25:46,156 --> 00:25:49,476 Speaker 1: The first performance went really well. My friend and I decided, 535 00:25:49,556 --> 00:25:52,196 Speaker 1: let's go to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, which is like 536 00:25:52,476 --> 00:25:56,436 Speaker 1: the epicenter of comedy, and let's perform on an open 537 00:25:56,436 --> 00:25:56,996 Speaker 1: mic night. 538 00:25:57,156 --> 00:25:59,076 Speaker 2: Performing in front of a small crowd of friends and 539 00:25:59,116 --> 00:26:02,116 Speaker 2: supporters at a low key gig isn't quite the same 540 00:26:02,196 --> 00:26:05,196 Speaker 2: as getting up on stage at the premier comedy festival 541 00:26:05,236 --> 00:26:05,756 Speaker 2: in the world. 542 00:26:06,076 --> 00:26:07,516 Speaker 1: It did not go as well. 543 00:26:08,596 --> 00:26:11,956 Speaker 2: Jessica now admits that she was a bit unprepared for Edinburgh. 544 00:26:12,236 --> 00:26:15,556 Speaker 1: In that particular act, I talk about living in England 545 00:26:15,596 --> 00:26:19,276 Speaker 1: and loving living in England, and I forgot that Edinburgh 546 00:26:19,356 --> 00:26:21,876 Speaker 1: is in Scotland, and I was like, yeah, loving and 547 00:26:21,956 --> 00:26:23,996 Speaker 1: I love it here. And it was like an audience 548 00:26:24,036 --> 00:26:26,996 Speaker 1: full of Scottish people who were like boo, like, get 549 00:26:27,036 --> 00:26:29,916 Speaker 1: off the stage. You're not in England. And for a delicate, 550 00:26:30,276 --> 00:26:34,556 Speaker 1: shy introvert, that's enough to kill you. But I didn't 551 00:26:34,556 --> 00:26:35,396 Speaker 1: actually die. 552 00:26:35,876 --> 00:26:38,796 Speaker 2: Jessica had made it through her year of living extrovertedly. 553 00:26:39,396 --> 00:26:42,676 Speaker 2: She'd embarrassed herself on a tube train, talked candidly with 554 00:26:42,716 --> 00:26:46,476 Speaker 2: strangers at parties, taken a comedy class, and had bombed 555 00:26:46,476 --> 00:26:49,236 Speaker 2: in front of an angry crowd at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. 556 00:26:49,916 --> 00:26:53,396 Speaker 2: But in spite of it all, she'd still emerged unscathed. 557 00:26:53,836 --> 00:26:55,916 Speaker 1: The lesson from the year is that I learned a 558 00:26:55,916 --> 00:26:58,356 Speaker 1: lot and nothing really bad happened to me. 559 00:26:58,756 --> 00:27:00,996 Speaker 2: Jessica hasn't quit her day job to become a stand 560 00:27:01,076 --> 00:27:03,756 Speaker 2: up regular, but she does still practice many of the 561 00:27:03,796 --> 00:27:06,596 Speaker 2: social skills she learned during her year long experiment. 562 00:27:06,956 --> 00:27:08,836 Speaker 1: I would say one of the biggest lessons from the 563 00:27:08,916 --> 00:27:12,436 Speaker 1: year was to go deeper and be vulnerable and be 564 00:27:12,516 --> 00:27:13,116 Speaker 1: willing to do it. 565 00:27:13,156 --> 00:27:13,436 Speaker 5: First. 566 00:27:13,796 --> 00:27:16,836 Speaker 1: Most people want to talk to you, and most people 567 00:27:16,836 --> 00:27:19,036 Speaker 1: are nicer than we imagine in our heads, because I 568 00:27:19,036 --> 00:27:22,956 Speaker 1: think we build up these big, scary judgments that oftentimes 569 00:27:22,996 --> 00:27:23,916 Speaker 1: don't even exist. 570 00:27:24,636 --> 00:27:27,796 Speaker 2: Jessica now uses a series of go to social hacks 571 00:27:27,876 --> 00:27:31,036 Speaker 2: to overcome her introversion, little rules that she puts into 572 00:27:31,076 --> 00:27:34,596 Speaker 2: effect whenever she feels daunted by a scary situation. The 573 00:27:34,636 --> 00:27:38,116 Speaker 2: first involves breaking her usual cycle of avoidance. If she's 574 00:27:38,156 --> 00:27:41,196 Speaker 2: invited to a party, she goes, and she even tries 575 00:27:41,316 --> 00:27:42,156 Speaker 2: to show up early. 576 00:27:42,436 --> 00:27:44,996 Speaker 1: If you show up late, everybody looks like they're already 577 00:27:44,996 --> 00:27:47,116 Speaker 1: in those little clicks and circles, and you feel like 578 00:27:47,156 --> 00:27:49,956 Speaker 1: you can't join in, and it's so intimidating. But if 579 00:27:49,996 --> 00:27:52,276 Speaker 1: you're the first person there, like the second person there, 580 00:27:52,316 --> 00:27:53,196 Speaker 1: it's not as scary. 581 00:27:53,556 --> 00:27:57,076 Speaker 2: But Jessica also warns that you shouldn't underestimate the discomfort 582 00:27:57,116 --> 00:28:00,316 Speaker 2: you might initially experience doing something new, and this means 583 00:28:00,396 --> 00:28:03,516 Speaker 2: you need to give yourself a little self compassion and patience. 584 00:28:03,916 --> 00:28:05,276 Speaker 1: You know, when you go swimming and you get in 585 00:28:05,316 --> 00:28:07,956 Speaker 1: the water, it's absolutely freezing, but then your body adjusts 586 00:28:07,996 --> 00:28:09,956 Speaker 1: to it and it doesn't feel so bad. I mean 587 00:28:09,996 --> 00:28:13,076 Speaker 1: that's a cliche metaphor, but I think it really works. 588 00:28:13,116 --> 00:28:15,716 Speaker 1: Like after you break the ice with one person, it's 589 00:28:15,756 --> 00:28:17,516 Speaker 1: not as scary with the second one, and it's not 590 00:28:17,636 --> 00:28:19,276 Speaker 1: scary with the third one, and by the fourth you 591 00:28:19,316 --> 00:28:20,436 Speaker 1: know the life of the party. 592 00:28:20,796 --> 00:28:23,556 Speaker 2: Jessica has learned to appreciate the benefits of social connection, 593 00:28:24,076 --> 00:28:27,396 Speaker 2: but the extroverted habits she now engages in regularly haven't 594 00:28:27,436 --> 00:28:29,436 Speaker 2: fully dismantled her true personality. 595 00:28:29,836 --> 00:28:32,956 Speaker 1: I'm definitely still an introvert, like I definitely prefer to 596 00:28:33,036 --> 00:28:35,036 Speaker 1: be at home or in a small group of people. 597 00:28:35,276 --> 00:28:37,636 Speaker 1: But I now know I can give a speech, I 598 00:28:37,676 --> 00:28:40,076 Speaker 1: can talk to a stranger, and that hard won social 599 00:28:40,116 --> 00:28:42,956 Speaker 1: confidence that came from this year long experiment has had 600 00:28:42,996 --> 00:28:47,236 Speaker 1: a big impact on Jessica's well being. I had more friends, 601 00:28:47,516 --> 00:28:50,476 Speaker 1: I had less anxiety. I you know, in my neighborhood. 602 00:28:50,476 --> 00:28:52,596 Speaker 1: Now I talk to tons of people. I recognize lots 603 00:28:52,596 --> 00:28:54,916 Speaker 1: of people. That feels like the small little village in 604 00:28:54,956 --> 00:28:57,796 Speaker 1: central London. I was a lot happier by the end 605 00:28:57,836 --> 00:28:58,196 Speaker 1: of the year. 606 00:28:58,356 --> 00:29:01,996 Speaker 2: When Jessica first encountered the extroverted psychologist Nick Eppley, she 607 00:29:02,156 --> 00:29:04,036 Speaker 2: was floored by the ease with which he talked to 608 00:29:04,076 --> 00:29:07,196 Speaker 2: complete strangers and how quickly he struck up friendships with 609 00:29:07,236 --> 00:29:10,436 Speaker 2: the workers he met in stores and cafe. Jessica didn't 610 00:29:10,436 --> 00:29:12,596 Speaker 2: think she'd ever be that comfortable in getting to know 611 00:29:12,636 --> 00:29:15,916 Speaker 2: strangers herself, but a year into her experiment, she had 612 00:29:15,956 --> 00:29:19,116 Speaker 2: really changed. A barista in her local coffee shop was 613 00:29:19,156 --> 00:29:20,836 Speaker 2: one of the first to notice. 614 00:29:20,716 --> 00:29:23,036 Speaker 1: And he said, I remember when he used to come 615 00:29:23,036 --> 00:29:24,756 Speaker 1: in here, like a long time ago. And I was like, yeah, 616 00:29:24,756 --> 00:29:26,716 Speaker 1: I remember that too, and he said, you didn't talk 617 00:29:26,716 --> 00:29:29,636 Speaker 1: it to us ever, like anybody, and I was like, yes, 618 00:29:29,836 --> 00:29:32,196 Speaker 1: that's correct. And he's like, now you're like friends with 619 00:29:32,236 --> 00:29:34,636 Speaker 1: each other and I was like, yeah, exactly. And you know, 620 00:29:34,676 --> 00:29:37,316 Speaker 1: I didn't say here's the book and here's why, but 621 00:29:37,516 --> 00:29:40,716 Speaker 1: he had noticed it. And it was really strange to 622 00:29:40,796 --> 00:29:43,876 Speaker 1: be perceived as an extrovert. And by the end I 623 00:29:43,956 --> 00:29:46,356 Speaker 1: just thought, I don't even recognize myself and I don't 624 00:29:46,396 --> 00:29:49,076 Speaker 1: mean like that I was pretending to be someone else, 625 00:29:49,276 --> 00:29:52,356 Speaker 1: or that I wasn't being true to myself. But it 626 00:29:52,396 --> 00:29:55,636 Speaker 1: was more like I haven't let these fears and anxieties 627 00:29:55,756 --> 00:29:58,636 Speaker 1: shackle me to the person I've always been. That I 628 00:29:58,716 --> 00:30:00,756 Speaker 1: felt like I had grown and I had changed. 629 00:30:01,916 --> 00:30:04,036 Speaker 2: The science shows that we can all enjoy the well 630 00:30:04,076 --> 00:30:06,956 Speaker 2: being boost that comes from social connection, no matter what 631 00:30:07,036 --> 00:30:10,596 Speaker 2: our personality type is. But to get those social connection benefits, 632 00:30:10,836 --> 00:30:13,196 Speaker 2: we need to actually connect with the people around us, 633 00:30:13,556 --> 00:30:16,076 Speaker 2: whether we know them well or not. So why not 634 00:30:16,156 --> 00:30:19,196 Speaker 2: push yourself and get a little more social. You could 635 00:30:19,196 --> 00:30:22,156 Speaker 2: talk to a local cashier, or a barista, or the 636 00:30:22,196 --> 00:30:24,476 Speaker 2: person sitting next to you on your commute, and when 637 00:30:24,476 --> 00:30:27,476 Speaker 2: you dive into conversation, try to push past the shallow 638 00:30:27,516 --> 00:30:30,356 Speaker 2: stuff and get to topics that feel a little deeper. 639 00:30:31,036 --> 00:30:35,036 Speaker 2: And remember psychologist Nick Epley's insight that not everyone waves, 640 00:30:35,276 --> 00:30:38,956 Speaker 2: but people usually wave back. I hope this episode has 641 00:30:38,996 --> 00:30:41,516 Speaker 2: given you some tips on how to extrovert a bit more, 642 00:30:42,076 --> 00:30:45,276 Speaker 2: even and perhaps especially if it doesn't come to you naturally, 643 00:30:45,996 --> 00:30:48,076 Speaker 2: And I hope you'll join me again next week for 644 00:30:48,236 --> 00:30:51,156 Speaker 2: more in our series on getting more social. Next time 645 00:30:51,276 --> 00:30:54,076 Speaker 2: on the Happiness Lab, with me, Doctor Laurie Santos