Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm
Speaker 1: Danny Shapiro and this is the first bonus episode of
Speaker 1: Family Secrets. I want to thank all of you who
Speaker 1: have listened during season one. I've been blown away by
Speaker 1: the amazing response to the stories of my guests. These
Speaker 1: people have shared complex, beautiful, haunting stories about their family
Speaker 1: secrets and the resilience and freedom found in bringing these
Speaker 1: secrets to light. In twelve step programs, It's often said
Speaker 1: they were only as sick as our secrets. Carl Jung
Speaker 1: refers to secrets as psychic poison, and so sharing these
Speaker 1: secrets is really powerful medicine. We discover again and again
Speaker 1: that we are not alone. The following is an abridged
Speaker 1: version of my conversation with Jennifer Mendelssohn, a journalist steeped
Speaker 1: in genealogy and the person my husband Michael and I
Speaker 1: turned to when we were uncovering the truth of my paternity.
Speaker 1: Jennifer and I sat down together at Politics and Prose,
Speaker 1: an independent bookstore in Washington, d C. Jennifer has been
Speaker 1: a guiding light for so many who have uncovered secrets
Speaker 1: from their d n A. I was so fortunate while
Speaker 1: in the midst of my own d n A mystery
Speaker 1: to have Jennifer in my corner, and stay tuned each
Speaker 1: Thursday for more bonus episodes. We have a lot of
Speaker 1: great content in store for you as we get ready
Speaker 1: for the launch of season two in August. I'm almost
Speaker 1: afraid that people are going to read the book and
Speaker 1: think that it always happens this quickly. I mean, we
Speaker 1: identified Danny's biological father in an hour, and I mean
Speaker 1: I have had cases that I have worked on for
Speaker 1: literally months and months. I know people adoptees who have
Speaker 1: searched for years, and I feel like I should explain
Speaker 1: very generally the way. Uh So, when you have an
Speaker 1: unknown parent, whether that's through adoption or sperm donation, or
Speaker 1: when someone is seeking an unknown parent or a grandparent
Speaker 1: or any other ancestor who is unidentified that you want
Speaker 1: to identify, the way that you identify that person is
Speaker 1: you basically reverse engineer your family tree based on the
Speaker 1: trees of your matches, and hopefully that makes sense. Meaning
Speaker 1: the ideal thing is you get a half a half
Speaker 1: sibling match, so you say, okay, we're half siblings. That
Speaker 1: means one of your parents is my parents it's just
Speaker 1: a question of which one if you get a first
Speaker 1: cousin match. First cousins share a set of grandparents. One
Speaker 1: set of our grandparents is the same. Some adoptees test,
Speaker 1: Most adoptees test, and they often have nothing but a
Speaker 1: third cousin. What that means is somebody like me comes
Speaker 1: in and builds out that matches tree all the way
Speaker 1: back to the great great grandparents that those two share,
Speaker 1: and then builds it all the way down and looks
Speaker 1: for a person in the spot in the family tree
Speaker 1: who fits the profile of the missing relative. In Danny's case,
Speaker 1: she had a first cousin match, which is great and
Speaker 1: a great place to start. So there's very few unknowns
Speaker 1: in that person's tree. We just needed to find that
Speaker 1: person's tree. Those of us who do this sort of
Speaker 1: I think Danny and Michael looked at it and only
Speaker 1: saw the initials and the name of the person, and
Speaker 1: they were like, well, where do we go from here?
Speaker 1: I know exactly where to go from there. So the
Speaker 1: name of the person, I mean, there was there was
Speaker 1: another just tiny little kind of steps there, which is
Speaker 1: the name of the person. It was two names that
Speaker 1: both sounded like they could be first names. And when
Speaker 1: I woke up that morning that we called you, Michael
Speaker 1: had been looking for that person as the name was
Speaker 1: listed and was coming up with just complete dead ends.
Speaker 1: And then he woke up in the morning when I
Speaker 1: woke up, the first thing he said to me is
Speaker 1: it's not first name last name, its last name first name.
Speaker 1: And that was when we called you. And then you
Speaker 1: knew how to unlock the get to the family tree
Speaker 1: of that person, who was in fact the wife of
Speaker 1: my biological first cousin who was administering the his site.
Speaker 1: So I was able to figure out who this person was.
Speaker 1: And in the wondrous age of Google and the Internet, um,
Speaker 1: I then very easily found his Facebook profile, which gave
Speaker 1: the name of the place where he lived. I then,
Speaker 1: I wish I could say it was like this arduous slaw.
Speaker 1: This is exactly what I did. I googled his name
Speaker 1: and that town and up popped his mother's obituary. And
Speaker 1: here is exactly what happened. And now, knowing the preface
Speaker 1: to this conversation, I'm reading the obituary, remember their first cousins.
Speaker 1: That would suggest that one of his uncle's is Danny's
Speaker 1: biological father, and I'm reading the obituary. It says he
Speaker 1: has survived, she has survived by her children and blah
Speaker 1: blah blah and her brother Dr so and so of
Speaker 1: a West Coast town. And we thought, huh. We then
Speaker 1: googled Dr so and so of a West I get
Speaker 1: chills just thinking about it because the face that popped
Speaker 1: up was Danny's face, and it was I've told the
Speaker 1: story so many times and and he and he graduated.
Speaker 1: Never sorry, we got that part, and you know, his
Speaker 1: his bio was on there and it said he went
Speaker 1: to medical school at the University of Pennsylvania. And there
Speaker 1: was just this stunned silence among and it was so
Speaker 1: odd because we're all on speaker phone. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: sitting in my little kitchen office. They're talking to me
Speaker 1: on speaker phone from a hotel room, and we're staring
Speaker 1: at what is clearly the ace of Danny's by. I mean,
Speaker 1: once you see it, there's just it wasn't like, huh, well,
Speaker 1: maybe it's like it's unmistakable, and it was, and then yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, what I remember was really odd. Hanging up.
Speaker 1: It was like okay, well guy, By, like what do
Speaker 1: you I mean it was like it was one of
Speaker 1: the most you know. The other thing I realized, as
Speaker 1: I've thought back about it, I now do this a lot.
Speaker 1: I help a lot of adoptees, um, you know, find
Speaker 1: their parents, and I guess I'm never there with them.
Speaker 1: Like I just solved one for this seven year old
Speaker 1: woman who's wanted to know who her father was her
Speaker 1: whole entire life. And it was roadblock after roadblock after roadblock,
Speaker 1: and I was about to tell her that I didn't
Speaker 1: think I could do it because it was just and
Speaker 1: then one night, I just like, at two o'clock in
Speaker 1: the morning, I found him, but she wasn't there on
Speaker 1: the phone, you know. So then I got to call
Speaker 1: her the next morning and say, like, I have, you know,
Speaker 1: really big news. But I mean that we were sort
Speaker 1: of there together while it happened. It was it was intense,
Speaker 1: it was charged, it was extraordinary. I mean we all
Speaker 1: were just like what just happened? Like it was it
Speaker 1: was crazy, you know, And then I just remember, like, okay,
Speaker 1: by like I actually remember too that I and I
Speaker 1: write about this in the book. Um there was I uh,
Speaker 1: I think you might even have said to me something like, so,
Speaker 1: what are you gonna do now, you know. And meanwhile,
Speaker 1: I mean, Jennifer is saying that it was absolutely apparent
Speaker 1: and obvious that this was my biological father. And I
Speaker 1: understand that, but it wasn't as obvious to me because
Speaker 1: it was such a surreal moment. So what I was
Speaker 1: looking at, um, he is he is a retired physician
Speaker 1: and has a specialty. And this falls into that you
Speaker 1: can't make this up Department of medical ethics, um, And
Speaker 1: he lectures on medical ethics. And so the very first
Speaker 1: time that I laid eyes on him was a YouTube
Speaker 1: video in which he was giving a lecture. And I
Speaker 1: give a lot of lectures. And what I noticed, I mean,
Speaker 1: if I can even call it noticing, what like sort
Speaker 1: of entered me. What I sensed was, Oh, he uses
Speaker 1: his hands the same way I do. And he was
Speaker 1: doing a Q and A and he kind of was.
Speaker 1: I actually said to my husband, he runs a Q
Speaker 1: and A the same way I do. But it wasn't
Speaker 1: like I was registering that, I mean, that I looked
Speaker 1: like him, or that this was real or some something.
Speaker 1: It was it both. It both answered every question I've
Speaker 1: ever had and then asked, like ten thousand others so
Speaker 1: it wasn't there. And but I remember Jennifer saying to me, so,
Speaker 1: what are you going to do now? And I think
Speaker 1: I don't know whether I said this to you in
Speaker 1: the moment, but I was like, well, I'm going to
Speaker 1: write him, you know, and and and and Jennifer suggested that,
Speaker 1: you know, I might want to slow down and said,
Speaker 1: there are templates for this sort of thing. You know,
Speaker 1: you may want to, you know, take a pause. And
Speaker 1: I I didn't. Um, but you know, I've I've encountered.
Speaker 1: I mean, I you probably encounter as well, but I've
Speaker 1: been And even before the book came out, when people
Speaker 1: knew what I was writing about and knew the story, UM,
Speaker 1: a lot of people who are in this position who
Speaker 1: either I want to reach out, UM in a way.
Speaker 1: I mean I recently heard a story where five half
Speaker 1: siblings found each other. They all figured out who their
Speaker 1: biological father were, and they all wrote him a note
Speaker 1: together and sent it to him on Father's Day. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like that that wasn't going to go well. Um,
Speaker 1: It's so, I mean, if you think about there's there's
Speaker 1: a refrain in Inheritance several times throughout the book in
Speaker 1: which I asked, how old is too old for a surprise. UM,
Speaker 1: I was very aware, even though I was in a
Speaker 1: state of complete shock, I was aware that there was
Speaker 1: a seventy eight year old retired doctor who was going
Speaker 1: to open his inbox and be stunned and um, that
Speaker 1: it wasn't going to be necessarily welcome, and that it
Speaker 1: was going to be either something he always worried would
Speaker 1: happen or something that he never considered what happened. But
Speaker 1: either way, And because I'm a writer, I just figured,
Speaker 1: like I know how to craft and email. I'm not
Speaker 1: going to read a template. Um, And you were no,
Speaker 1: totally totally, And it was like I'm sure it was.
Speaker 1: It was it was good advice, and it was advice
Speaker 1: I would give people because really there's a kind of
Speaker 1: almost a like a flailing that can happen. I just like,
Speaker 1: I've got to do something. And but I also had
Speaker 1: the capacity to write something that was careful, even though
Speaker 1: I wasn't feeling careful. I knew how to I knew
Speaker 1: how to write something that would put myself in his shoes.
Speaker 1: And and and I didn't say much. All I really
Speaker 1: said was, I think, you know, here's who I am
Speaker 1: I am writing because I recently did a DNA test,
Speaker 1: and um, I always thought my parents were both my
Speaker 1: biological parents, and it seems possible that you may be
Speaker 1: my biological father. And if this makes sense to you,
Speaker 1: I hope you'll write me back pretty much that I
Speaker 1: didn't say much beyond that. But in the book also
Speaker 1: there's there's a moment where I I think about the
Speaker 1: way that we're in each other's lives, like I will
Speaker 1: I will always feel incredibly connected to you because you
Speaker 1: were present on that speaker phone and you know, in
Speaker 1: that moment at the most um sort of stunning um
Speaker 1: and life shifting moment of my life. And and then really,
Speaker 1: I mean, in the book, it went from the from
Speaker 1: the thirty six hours in which I found I found
Speaker 1: out that my father wasn't by my biological father, until
Speaker 1: I was looking at the face of my biological father.
Speaker 1: But ultimately for me, that was the beginning of the
Speaker 1: mystery and not remotely the end of it. Um. The
Speaker 1: the two the two strands of the story, uh and
Speaker 1: and ongoing, even though I've the book is finished, but
Speaker 1: ongoing for me, I think probably forever or I mean,
Speaker 1: one is the discovery of this relationship with this man
Speaker 1: who is my biological father, um, and what do I
Speaker 1: who are we to each other? But the the other
Speaker 1: strand of it was what did my parents know, you know?
Speaker 1: And what were they told? And what was the history
Speaker 1: of reproductive medicine in this country? And how much can
Speaker 1: I find out about it? And there was a tremendous
Speaker 1: sense of urgency for me because I was very aware
Speaker 1: that anyone who might still might have some kind of clue,
Speaker 1: might know something been around known, the world famous doctor known,
Speaker 1: the institute known my parents. Maybe my mother told her
Speaker 1: nineties three year old best friend. Maybe my father had
Speaker 1: confessor gone to speak with you know, the elderly rabbi
Speaker 1: to ask his advice about what to do. I just
Speaker 1: I began my my husband and I had this refrain
Speaker 1: where I don't like picking up the phone and calling people,
Speaker 1: especially people who aren't gonna want to hear from me.
Speaker 1: I could never really have been an investigative journalist, but
Speaker 1: I would hesitate picking up the phone to call someone.
Speaker 1: And my husband would say he may be dead by Friday,
Speaker 1: and I would pick up the phone because my desire
Speaker 1: to know was greater than my fear of being hung
Speaker 1: up on or whatever it was, it became you know,
Speaker 1: just a pure you know, just like the urgency and obsession.
Speaker 1: My version of that is in two thousand thirteen, I
Speaker 1: had an extraordinary experience of we discovered that my husband's
Speaker 1: year old Holocaust survivor grandmother actually had three living first
Speaker 1: cousins um that nobody had known about. And when I
Speaker 1: was on the hunt, I mean she was ninety five,
Speaker 1: and it was like, every time there was a document
Speaker 1: that I needed to order that might shed light on this,
Speaker 1: I would be like, how soon can you get it
Speaker 1: to me? Like can we rush it? Please? I just
Speaker 1: my great Every night I would go to bed and
Speaker 1: be like, please don't die before we find them, like please,
Speaker 1: And she didn't. We reunited them. But it's funny because
Speaker 1: I think when you when you said you feel a
Speaker 1: connection to me, and I feel a connection to you.
Speaker 1: Of course, I mean we've known each other sort of
Speaker 1: through social media for years, but um, these experiences are
Speaker 1: like that. I always adored her and had a great
Speaker 1: relationship with her, but after that I felt bonded and
Speaker 1: connected to her, and you know, we'd shared. I brought
Speaker 1: her something that was so special, and you know, I've
Speaker 1: felt it just you know, and all these people that
Speaker 1: I've helped, some of them are total strangers. I volunteer sometimes,
Speaker 1: and you know, you just feel like you've played a
Speaker 1: special little angel role in their lives, given them something
Speaker 1: that you know, there's something, there's something about it. Um.
Speaker 1: Nothing could substitute for the actual cousins, meaning there's you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, like, unless it was them, there
Speaker 1: was nothing that could fill that spot. And when we
Speaker 1: found them, it was extraordinary. And when we found your father,
Speaker 1: you know, there's no until it was him, it was
Speaker 1: not you know, and then he's there and it's like wow,
Speaker 1: and it's your flesh and blood and it's powerful. We're
Speaker 1: gonna pau for a moment. So I'm wondering if we
Speaker 1: should should we open it up to questions? Yeah, I've
Speaker 1: just I've been noticing just in the in the weeks
Speaker 1: since the book is at or not quite weak, that um,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of conversation that seems to want to
Speaker 1: be had around um are all the layers and complexities
Speaker 1: of all this Who's going to be first? I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is a quick question, but
Speaker 1: it's just there, you know, twenty three and me an ancestry.
Speaker 1: How accurate are they? I mean, are they scientifically valid?
Speaker 1: The short answer, which I suppose, is the one that
Speaker 1: the situation demands. UM, the ethnicity estimates are. You have
Speaker 1: to understand. I always tell people they don't measure something
Speaker 1: like the pH of a liquid or you know, it's
Speaker 1: not a scientific thing that is determined and you get it.
Speaker 1: And it's that there based on reference populations, meaning they
Speaker 1: tell you your Irish based on comparing your DNA to
Speaker 1: people who self report as Irish. UM. That's why every
Speaker 1: company comes out a little bit different if you take them.
Speaker 1: There's usually small differences between you know, even if the
Speaker 1: same person tests. I heard one person say of a
Speaker 1: genetic genealogists, you know, trust the continent. At the continent level,
Speaker 1: they should be good. So you know, if you are
Speaker 1: Eastern European Jewish, you were not going to take the
Speaker 1: test and be told your Southeast Asian. That just doesn't happen.
Speaker 1: But if you're you know, I think people have unreasonable
Speaker 1: expectations that they're like, you know, my sister was point
Speaker 1: three percent more German than I was. We must not
Speaker 1: be related. But you know, so take it with a
Speaker 1: grain of salt. It will identify for you the broad
Speaker 1: patterns of your ancestry. The part that is irrefutable, though,
Speaker 1: is the people with whom you share DNA. UM. I
Speaker 1: cannot tell you how many people I know who have
Speaker 1: gotten a surprising result, who then insist on taking a
Speaker 1: second test and it always comes out the same way. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, if a test tells you that someone is
Speaker 1: your father, they are your father. That's that's not mistaken.
Speaker 1: And if a test tells you that you share an
Speaker 1: extraordinary amount of DNA with someone, you share an extraordinary
Speaker 1: amount of DNA with that that is almost never. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's virtually impossible for that to be wrong. This discovery
Speaker 1: for me kind of came in stages. And when I
Speaker 1: first saw the fifty two percent Eastern European Oshcanazi, which
Speaker 1: made no sense, I just thought, well, maybe that's the
Speaker 1: way it is as I read in my reading or
Speaker 1: UM I then thought, well, maybe they just got it wrong.
Speaker 1: This is yeah, this doesn't really make sense. When the
Speaker 1: first cousin appeared, I continued to be in a kind
Speaker 1: of I guess denial where I just thought, well, now
Speaker 1: they definitely just got it wrong, because I know all
Speaker 1: my first cousins. I mean, it's so completely When you
Speaker 1: have a discovery like this, they call it an MPE
Speaker 1: not parent expected discovery. And four of people on ancestry
Speaker 1: dot com, that's the of the seven million people who
Speaker 1: who who who did this testing on just that one,
Speaker 1: just with that one company last year, four of them
Speaker 1: came up with an non not parent expected. That's a
Speaker 1: lot of people. But actually, after my half sister came
Speaker 1: very clearly according to these um you know the signs
Speaker 1: and numbers and you know, greater than and lesser than
Speaker 1: and most recent common ancestor. Once all that came back,
Speaker 1: UM and it was sort of irrefutable, I made my
Speaker 1: husband go call ancestry dot com in Utah, you know, wherever,
Speaker 1: and they would some some they were I guess they
Speaker 1: got those calls. They get a lot of those calls,
Speaker 1: and they must have somebody manning the phone twenty four
Speaker 1: hours a day. I mean, there was like a manager
Speaker 1: who was on duty and UM and and said, no,
Speaker 1: we that that kind of mistake has never been made
Speaker 1: in the history of ancestry dot com was which is
Speaker 1: what was because can you imagine if they made those
Speaker 1: kinds of mistakes, these companies would not be you know,
Speaker 1: all that would have to happen is that happening once
Speaker 1: and someone having a nervous breakdown. It doesn't happen. On
Speaker 1: the message boards that I read on Facebook, people always
Speaker 1: say DNA doesn't lie. People do so. Based on this
Speaker 1: experience that you've had and all the thought that you've
Speaker 1: given to it, I'm curious in your opinion about something.
Speaker 1: Do you ever think there's a justification to keep a
Speaker 1: family secret? That is a big question, Mr, And there's
Speaker 1: no simple answer. Another thing that I've become aware of is,
Speaker 1: even though I find it painful and very complex, that
Speaker 1: my parents kept the truth of my paternity UM from me,
Speaker 1: and that I I grew I grew up every day
Speaker 1: of my life being told I didn't look Jewish every
Speaker 1: day UM. And I when I was three years old,
Speaker 1: I was literally the Kodak Christmas poster child, wishing the
Speaker 1: entire world a merry Christmas. UM. That was That was complicated,
Speaker 1: and and I was always told your mother in some way,
Speaker 1: and you know what I said before about being sort
Speaker 1: of formed by what you don't know. That was hard. However,
Speaker 1: if I if my parents had had some kind of
Speaker 1: moment where they thought we should we should tell her
Speaker 1: and sat me down when I was twelve or sixteen
Speaker 1: or twenty even and told me this. At that time,
Speaker 1: a there was no community, I wouldn't have known a
Speaker 1: soul who was donor conceived. Or I very well might
Speaker 1: have known a soul who was donor conceived, but they
Speaker 1: wouldn't have known it either because everyone it was so secret.
Speaker 1: So I would have been even more of a unicorn
Speaker 1: than I already felt like I was. My relationship with
Speaker 1: my father was much closer than my relationship with my mother,
Speaker 1: and and the idea that I would I wouldn't have
Speaker 1: been able to even know where to begin searching for
Speaker 1: the anonymous sperm donor that was my biological father, and
Speaker 1: that you know, DNA testing wasn't yet a thing. I
Speaker 1: don't know that I would have survived at So I
Speaker 1: think with family secrets, it's more about when you find
Speaker 1: them out then that you find them out. I think
Speaker 1: secrets are really toxic, and just because it isn't said
Speaker 1: doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I think there's a way
Speaker 1: in which it permeates and leaks into the air around it,
Speaker 1: and it's noxious. Um I don't think my parents. I
Speaker 1: don't think there. I don't think there could have been
Speaker 1: a good solution in that case. A secret was kept
Speaker 1: from me. It probably he was the right thing, given
Speaker 1: my generation, for it to be kept from me. I
Speaker 1: found it out when I was fifty four years old
Speaker 1: and in a really solid place in my life. I
Speaker 1: told Danny earlier that I just heard a story this
Speaker 1: weekend about a family friend of a friend who was
Speaker 1: a physician, and one day he sat his kids down
Speaker 1: and said, I just want you all to know you
Speaker 1: probably shouldn't date anybody in Michigan. He said, I had
Speaker 1: to get through medical school. I did a lot of
Speaker 1: donating stay away from Michigan, of course, but there's none
Speaker 1: of them would have moved from Michigan. That's all, just
Speaker 1: all right. So this is going to be the last
Speaker 1: question related to that point. Have you identified or tried
Speaker 1: to identify any genetic half siblings and how do you
Speaker 1: view that relationship. Is it like someone who came from
Speaker 1: the same country as you sort of conceptualized that father
Speaker 1: thing or what is that? What does that look like?
Speaker 1: So the question is whether I've I've been able to
Speaker 1: identify any half siblings and the answer actually in my case,
Speaker 1: and this is just really interesting to me, is no, UM,
Speaker 1: which is rare. I mean no in the sense I
Speaker 1: have not had half siblings materialized on twenty three and
Speaker 1: me or ancestory dot com. That doesn't mean they won't,
Speaker 1: but I think it does mean there won't be many. UM.
Speaker 1: I do have half siblings that are my biological father's kids,
Speaker 1: and I do have a relationship, in particular with his
Speaker 1: oldest child, who is a daughter UM, who's close in
Speaker 1: age to me, I mean six years younger, and with
Speaker 1: whom I have a lot in common, and who was
Speaker 1: very open and curious and interested in having a relationship
Speaker 1: with me because she grew up with two brothers and
Speaker 1: she really wanted to have a sister. So UM, but
Speaker 1: we also have a lot in common. Now do we
Speaker 1: have a lot in common because we share a biological
Speaker 1: father or do we just have a lot? And I
Speaker 1: mean there's I mean I always feel like it's so
Speaker 1: it's so complex and so not black and white to say. Look,
Speaker 1: I I grew up really feeling like my mother might
Speaker 1: not be my mother. You know she is, UM, but
Speaker 1: but I didn't feel a bond with her, and she
Speaker 1: is biologically my mother. I grew up with a father
Speaker 1: who I felt an enormous bond with, who it turns
Speaker 1: out was not my biological father. So it's it's not,
Speaker 1: you know, we don't we all have siblings that we
Speaker 1: like or we don't like, we feel close to, or
Speaker 1: we don't. We think like, how did you end up
Speaker 1: in the same family as me? So it's not. There's
Speaker 1: nothing similars here tonight, nothing simple about that. But I
Speaker 1: would imagine and I and and I think it's probably
Speaker 1: different for people who discover many, many half siblings, you know,
Speaker 1: in the donor in the donor conceived community, they're often
Speaker 1: called siblings, like donors siblings. I I mean I I
Speaker 1: encountered a guy fairly recently who has discovered something like,
Speaker 1: um like seventy five of them. And and I think
Speaker 1: at a certain point it probably becomes very difficult to
Speaker 1: feel like, you know, you're the country I'm from, or
Speaker 1: you know where, it's getting very crowded in that country. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Family Secrets is an i Heeart Media production. Dylan Fagan
Speaker 1: is the supervising producer and Julie Douglas is the executive producer.
Speaker 1: If you have a family secret, you'd like to share.
Speaker 1: You can get in touch with us at listener mail
Speaker 1: at Family Secrets Podcast dot com, and you can also
Speaker 1: find us on Instagram at Danny Ryder, and Facebook at
Speaker 1: Family Secrets Pod, and Twitter at Fam Secrets Pod. That's
Speaker 1: fam Secrets Pod. For more about my book, Inheritance, visit
Speaker 1: Danny Shapiro dot com