WEBVTT - Bonus: Jennifer Mendelsohn on Genealogy and Secrets 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:11.280 Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:14.720 Danny Shapiro and this is the first bonus episode of 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:17.920 Family Secrets. I want to thank all of you who 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:20.840 have listened during season one. I've been blown away by 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:24.799 the amazing response to the stories of my guests. These 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:29.120 people have shared complex, beautiful, haunting stories about their family 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:32.879 secrets and the resilience and freedom found in bringing these 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:36.480 secrets to light. In twelve step programs, It's often said 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:39.840 they were only as sick as our secrets. Carl Jung 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:44.920 refers to secrets as psychic poison, and so sharing these 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:49.320 secrets is really powerful medicine. We discover again and again 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:52.960 that we are not alone. The following is an abridged 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:57.000 version of my conversation with Jennifer Mendelssohn, a journalist steeped 0:00:57.000 --> 0:00:59.880 in genealogy and the person my husband Michael and I 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:03.880 turned to when we were uncovering the truth of my paternity. 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:07.160 Jennifer and I sat down together at Politics and Prose, 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:11.040 an independent bookstore in Washington, d C. Jennifer has been 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:14.240 a guiding light for so many who have uncovered secrets 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:17.720 from their d n A. I was so fortunate while 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:20.119 in the midst of my own d n A mystery 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:24.199 to have Jennifer in my corner, and stay tuned each 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:27.440 Thursday for more bonus episodes. We have a lot of 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:29.840 great content in store for you as we get ready 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:43.440 for the launch of season two in August. I'm almost 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:45.319 afraid that people are going to read the book and 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:47.880 think that it always happens this quickly. I mean, we 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:51.680 identified Danny's biological father in an hour, and I mean 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:54.040 I have had cases that I have worked on for 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:57.400 literally months and months. I know people adoptees who have 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:01.680 searched for years, and I feel like I should explain 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:05.520 very generally the way. Uh So, when you have an 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:09.200 unknown parent, whether that's through adoption or sperm donation, or 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:12.079 when someone is seeking an unknown parent or a grandparent 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:15.519 or any other ancestor who is unidentified that you want 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:21.000 to identify, the way that you identify that person is 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:26.440 you basically reverse engineer your family tree based on the 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:30.120 trees of your matches, and hopefully that makes sense. Meaning 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:34.160 the ideal thing is you get a half a half 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:37.600 sibling match, so you say, okay, we're half siblings. That 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:39.920 means one of your parents is my parents it's just 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:42.640 a question of which one if you get a first 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:46.799 cousin match. First cousins share a set of grandparents. One 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:50.680 set of our grandparents is the same. Some adoptees test, 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:53.440 Most adoptees test, and they often have nothing but a 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:56.960 third cousin. What that means is somebody like me comes 0:02:56.960 --> 0:02:59.880 in and builds out that matches tree all the way 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:02.600 back to the great great grandparents that those two share, 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:05.120 and then builds it all the way down and looks 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:08.000 for a person in the spot in the family tree 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:13.880 who fits the profile of the missing relative. In Danny's case, 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:19.000 she had a first cousin match, which is great and 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:22.320 a great place to start. So there's very few unknowns 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:25.120 in that person's tree. We just needed to find that 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:28.760 person's tree. Those of us who do this sort of 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:30.960 I think Danny and Michael looked at it and only 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:33.080 saw the initials and the name of the person, and 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:34.920 they were like, well, where do we go from here? 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:38.360 I know exactly where to go from there. So the 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:40.080 name of the person, I mean, there was there was 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:42.960 another just tiny little kind of steps there, which is 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:45.680 the name of the person. It was two names that 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:49.480 both sounded like they could be first names. And when 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:52.600 I woke up that morning that we called you, Michael 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:55.360 had been looking for that person as the name was 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:59.000 listed and was coming up with just complete dead ends. 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:01.800 And then he woke up in the morning when I 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:03.600 woke up, the first thing he said to me is 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:07.280 it's not first name last name, its last name first name. 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:10.839 And that was when we called you. And then you 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:16.000 knew how to unlock the get to the family tree 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:20.599 of that person, who was in fact the wife of 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:25.520 my biological first cousin who was administering the his site. 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:31.760 So I was able to figure out who this person was. 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:36.800 And in the wondrous age of Google and the Internet, um, 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:42.039 I then very easily found his Facebook profile, which gave 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:45.680 the name of the place where he lived. I then, 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:49.680 I wish I could say it was like this arduous slaw. 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:52.239 This is exactly what I did. I googled his name 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:57.840 and that town and up popped his mother's obituary. And 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:00.760 here is exactly what happened. And now, knowing the preface 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:04.960 to this conversation, I'm reading the obituary, remember their first cousins. 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:09.239 That would suggest that one of his uncle's is Danny's 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:13.120 biological father, and I'm reading the obituary. It says he 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:16.479 has survived, she has survived by her children and blah 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:20.080 blah blah and her brother Dr so and so of 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:26.040 a West Coast town. And we thought, huh. We then 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:28.960 googled Dr so and so of a West I get 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:31.400 chills just thinking about it because the face that popped 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:35.320 up was Danny's face, and it was I've told the 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:38.440 story so many times and and he and he graduated. 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:41.279 Never sorry, we got that part, and you know, his 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:43.080 his bio was on there and it said he went 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:45.880 to medical school at the University of Pennsylvania. And there 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:51.200 was just this stunned silence among and it was so 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:53.320 odd because we're all on speaker phone. You know, I'm 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:55.839 sitting in my little kitchen office. They're talking to me 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:58.599 on speaker phone from a hotel room, and we're staring 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:01.280 at what is clearly the ace of Danny's by. I mean, 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:04.479 once you see it, there's just it wasn't like, huh, well, 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:09.200 maybe it's like it's unmistakable, and it was, and then yeah, 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:12.320 you know, what I remember was really odd. Hanging up. 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:16.599 It was like okay, well guy, By, like what do 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:18.359 you I mean it was like it was one of 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:20.719 the most you know. The other thing I realized, as 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:23.680 I've thought back about it, I now do this a lot. 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:26.920 I help a lot of adoptees, um, you know, find 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:31.160 their parents, and I guess I'm never there with them. 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:33.720 Like I just solved one for this seven year old 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:35.800 woman who's wanted to know who her father was her 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:40.120 whole entire life. And it was roadblock after roadblock after roadblock, 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:42.599 and I was about to tell her that I didn't 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:44.560 think I could do it because it was just and 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:46.560 then one night, I just like, at two o'clock in 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:49.080 the morning, I found him, but she wasn't there on 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:50.480 the phone, you know. So then I got to call 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:52.640 her the next morning and say, like, I have, you know, 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:55.560 really big news. But I mean that we were sort 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:59.760 of there together while it happened. It was it was intense, 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.800 it was charged, it was extraordinary. I mean we all 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:07.839 were just like what just happened? Like it was it 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:10.240 was crazy, you know, And then I just remember, like, okay, 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:14.920 by like I actually remember too that I and I 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:18.360 write about this in the book. Um there was I uh, 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:21.000 I think you might even have said to me something like, so, 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:23.640 what are you gonna do now, you know. And meanwhile, 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:27.360 I mean, Jennifer is saying that it was absolutely apparent 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:30.680 and obvious that this was my biological father. And I 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:34.800 understand that, but it wasn't as obvious to me because 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:38.960 it was such a surreal moment. So what I was 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:42.120 looking at, um, he is he is a retired physician 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:44.600 and has a specialty. And this falls into that you 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:49.880 can't make this up Department of medical ethics, um, And 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:52.840 he lectures on medical ethics. And so the very first 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:54.920 time that I laid eyes on him was a YouTube 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:58.360 video in which he was giving a lecture. And I 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:02.920 give a lot of lectures. And what I noticed, I mean, 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:05.280 if I can even call it noticing, what like sort 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:08.920 of entered me. What I sensed was, Oh, he uses 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:11.680 his hands the same way I do. And he was 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:13.800 doing a Q and A and he kind of was. 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:16.560 I actually said to my husband, he runs a Q 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:19.440 and A the same way I do. But it wasn't 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:23.840 like I was registering that, I mean, that I looked 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:26.480 like him, or that this was real or some something. 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:31.000 It was it both. It both answered every question I've 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:33.480 ever had and then asked, like ten thousand others so 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:36.079 it wasn't there. And but I remember Jennifer saying to me, so, 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:37.400 what are you going to do now? And I think 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:38.920 I don't know whether I said this to you in 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:40.280 the moment, but I was like, well, I'm going to 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:44.319 write him, you know, and and and and Jennifer suggested that, 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:47.440 you know, I might want to slow down and said, 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:49.360 there are templates for this sort of thing. You know, 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:52.559 you may want to, you know, take a pause. And 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:56.439 I I didn't. Um, but you know, I've I've encountered. 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:59.280 I mean, I you probably encounter as well, but I've 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:01.680 been And even before the book came out, when people 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:04.679 knew what I was writing about and knew the story, UM, 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:08.600 a lot of people who are in this position who 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:13.280 either I want to reach out, UM in a way. 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:17.280 I mean I recently heard a story where five half 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:19.360 siblings found each other. They all figured out who their 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:21.760 biological father were, and they all wrote him a note 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:25.040 together and sent it to him on Father's Day. You know, 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:28.839 it's like that that wasn't going to go well. Um, 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:31.640 It's so, I mean, if you think about there's there's 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:35.240 a refrain in Inheritance several times throughout the book in 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:38.960 which I asked, how old is too old for a surprise. UM, 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:41.240 I was very aware, even though I was in a 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:45.520 state of complete shock, I was aware that there was 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:48.040 a seventy eight year old retired doctor who was going 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:53.040 to open his inbox and be stunned and um, that 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:55.720 it wasn't going to be necessarily welcome, and that it 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:58.480 was going to be either something he always worried would 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:01.160 happen or something that he never considered what happened. But 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:04.240 either way, And because I'm a writer, I just figured, 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:06.040 like I know how to craft and email. I'm not 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:11.000 going to read a template. Um, And you were no, 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:13.200 totally totally, And it was like I'm sure it was. 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:15.319 It was it was good advice, and it was advice 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:18.000 I would give people because really there's a kind of 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:21.360 almost a like a flailing that can happen. I just like, 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:24.040 I've got to do something. And but I also had 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:28.840 the capacity to write something that was careful, even though 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:31.680 I wasn't feeling careful. I knew how to I knew 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:34.720 how to write something that would put myself in his shoes. 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:37.360 And and and I didn't say much. All I really 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:40.440 said was, I think, you know, here's who I am 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:45.000 I am writing because I recently did a DNA test, 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:48.439 and um, I always thought my parents were both my 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:52.120 biological parents, and it seems possible that you may be 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:55.319 my biological father. And if this makes sense to you, 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:58.679 I hope you'll write me back pretty much that I 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:02.880 didn't say much beyond that. But in the book also 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:05.960 there's there's a moment where I I think about the 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:08.479 way that we're in each other's lives, like I will 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:12.320 I will always feel incredibly connected to you because you 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:15.480 were present on that speaker phone and you know, in 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:19.480 that moment at the most um sort of stunning um 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:24.040 and life shifting moment of my life. And and then really, 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:27.160 I mean, in the book, it went from the from 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:29.920 the thirty six hours in which I found I found 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:32.320 out that my father wasn't by my biological father, until 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:34.280 I was looking at the face of my biological father. 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:40.520 But ultimately for me, that was the beginning of the 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:45.200 mystery and not remotely the end of it. Um. The 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:51.120 the two the two strands of the story, uh and 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:54.000 and ongoing, even though I've the book is finished, but 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:56.719 ongoing for me, I think probably forever or I mean, 0:11:56.800 --> 0:12:01.160 one is the discovery of this relationship with this man 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:04.960 who is my biological father, um, and what do I 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:07.600 who are we to each other? But the the other 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:10.960 strand of it was what did my parents know, you know? 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:14.360 And what were they told? And what was the history 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:18.199 of reproductive medicine in this country? And how much can 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:20.960 I find out about it? And there was a tremendous 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:24.080 sense of urgency for me because I was very aware 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:29.640 that anyone who might still might have some kind of clue, 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:35.280 might know something been around known, the world famous doctor known, 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:39.679 the institute known my parents. Maybe my mother told her 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:41.960 nineties three year old best friend. Maybe my father had 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:46.439 confessor gone to speak with you know, the elderly rabbi 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:50.120 to ask his advice about what to do. I just 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:52.600 I began my my husband and I had this refrain 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:55.280 where I don't like picking up the phone and calling people, 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:57.880 especially people who aren't gonna want to hear from me. 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:00.600 I could never really have been an investigative journalist, but 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:04.680 I would hesitate picking up the phone to call someone. 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:08.400 And my husband would say he may be dead by Friday, 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:11.120 and I would pick up the phone because my desire 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:15.160 to know was greater than my fear of being hung 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:17.920 up on or whatever it was, it became you know, 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:21.280 just a pure you know, just like the urgency and obsession. 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:25.240 My version of that is in two thousand thirteen, I 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:29.120 had an extraordinary experience of we discovered that my husband's 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:33.640 year old Holocaust survivor grandmother actually had three living first 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:38.880 cousins um that nobody had known about. And when I 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.319 was on the hunt, I mean she was ninety five, 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:43.440 and it was like, every time there was a document 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:45.840 that I needed to order that might shed light on this, 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:47.920 I would be like, how soon can you get it 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:50.400 to me? Like can we rush it? Please? I just 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:52.320 my great Every night I would go to bed and 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.400 be like, please don't die before we find them, like please, 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:58.439 And she didn't. We reunited them. But it's funny because 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:00.200 I think when you when you said you feel a 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:02.000 connection to me, and I feel a connection to you. 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:04.040 Of course, I mean we've known each other sort of 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:08.719 through social media for years, but um, these experiences are 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:11.720 like that. I always adored her and had a great 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:14.560 relationship with her, but after that I felt bonded and 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:17.600 connected to her, and you know, we'd shared. I brought 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:20.800 her something that was so special, and you know, I've 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.160 felt it just you know, and all these people that 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:27.040 I've helped, some of them are total strangers. I volunteer sometimes, 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:29.200 and you know, you just feel like you've played a 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:32.280 special little angel role in their lives, given them something 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:36.760 that you know, there's something, there's something about it. Um. 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:41.320 Nothing could substitute for the actual cousins, meaning there's you 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:44.000 know what I mean, like, unless it was them, there 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:46.560 was nothing that could fill that spot. And when we 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:49.920 found them, it was extraordinary. And when we found your father, 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:52.720 you know, there's no until it was him, it was 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:55.240 not you know, and then he's there and it's like wow, 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:59.480 and it's your flesh and blood and it's powerful. We're 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:07.560 gonna pau for a moment. So I'm wondering if we 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:10.840 should should we open it up to questions? Yeah, I've 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:12.960 just I've been noticing just in the in the weeks 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:16.280 since the book is at or not quite weak, that um, 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:20.320 there's a lot of conversation that seems to want to 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:24.560 be had around um are all the layers and complexities 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.640 of all this Who's going to be first? I don't know. 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:29.720 I don't know if this is a quick question, but 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:32.520 it's just there, you know, twenty three and me an ancestry. 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:37.360 How accurate are they? I mean, are they scientifically valid? 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:41.280 The short answer, which I suppose, is the one that 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:46.120 the situation demands. UM, the ethnicity estimates are. You have 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:49.800 to understand. I always tell people they don't measure something 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:52.920 like the pH of a liquid or you know, it's 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:57.800 not a scientific thing that is determined and you get it. 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:02.320 And it's that there based on reference populations, meaning they 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:07.240 tell you your Irish based on comparing your DNA to 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:11.440 people who self report as Irish. UM. That's why every 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:14.240 company comes out a little bit different if you take them. 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:17.440 There's usually small differences between you know, even if the 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:21.880 same person tests. I heard one person say of a 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:25.280 genetic genealogists, you know, trust the continent. At the continent level, 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:27.680 they should be good. So you know, if you are 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:29.840 Eastern European Jewish, you were not going to take the 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:32.560 test and be told your Southeast Asian. That just doesn't happen. 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:35.080 But if you're you know, I think people have unreasonable 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:38.000 expectations that they're like, you know, my sister was point 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:40.520 three percent more German than I was. We must not 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:43.080 be related. But you know, so take it with a 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:45.520 grain of salt. It will identify for you the broad 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:49.240 patterns of your ancestry. The part that is irrefutable, though, 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:53.000 is the people with whom you share DNA. UM. I 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:56.640 cannot tell you how many people I know who have 0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:59.680 gotten a surprising result, who then insist on taking a 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:03.320 second test and it always comes out the same way. Um. 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:05.639 You know, if a test tells you that someone is 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:08.840 your father, they are your father. That's that's not mistaken. 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:11.359 And if a test tells you that you share an 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:14.359 extraordinary amount of DNA with someone, you share an extraordinary 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:17.840 amount of DNA with that that is almost never. I mean, 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:22.280 it's virtually impossible for that to be wrong. This discovery 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:24.280 for me kind of came in stages. And when I 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:27.200 first saw the fifty two percent Eastern European Oshcanazi, which 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:29.600 made no sense, I just thought, well, maybe that's the 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:31.280 way it is as I read in my reading or 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:35.600 UM I then thought, well, maybe they just got it wrong. 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:38.159 This is yeah, this doesn't really make sense. When the 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:40.960 first cousin appeared, I continued to be in a kind 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:43.920 of I guess denial where I just thought, well, now 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:46.880 they definitely just got it wrong, because I know all 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:50.280 my first cousins. I mean, it's so completely When you 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.080 have a discovery like this, they call it an MPE 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:59.119 not parent expected discovery. And four of people on ancestry 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:02.080 dot com, that's the of the seven million people who 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:05.440 who who who did this testing on just that one, 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:09.080 just with that one company last year, four of them 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:12.240 came up with an non not parent expected. That's a 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:16.840 lot of people. But actually, after my half sister came 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:21.840 very clearly according to these um you know the signs 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:24.640 and numbers and you know, greater than and lesser than 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:29.880 and most recent common ancestor. Once all that came back, 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:34.280 UM and it was sort of irrefutable, I made my 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:38.840 husband go call ancestry dot com in Utah, you know, wherever, 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:40.439 and they would some some they were I guess they 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:42.280 got those calls. They get a lot of those calls, 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:44.360 and they must have somebody manning the phone twenty four 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:46.480 hours a day. I mean, there was like a manager 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:49.760 who was on duty and UM and and said, no, 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:53.040 we that that kind of mistake has never been made 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:55.240 in the history of ancestry dot com was which is 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:57.239 what was because can you imagine if they made those 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:00.359 kinds of mistakes, these companies would not be you know, 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:03.200 all that would have to happen is that happening once 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:06.960 and someone having a nervous breakdown. It doesn't happen. On 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:11.280 the message boards that I read on Facebook, people always 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:31.040 say DNA doesn't lie. People do so. Based on this 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:34.360 experience that you've had and all the thought that you've 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:37.280 given to it, I'm curious in your opinion about something. 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:41.720 Do you ever think there's a justification to keep a 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:50.440 family secret? That is a big question, Mr, And there's 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:56.199 no simple answer. Another thing that I've become aware of is, 0:19:56.240 --> 0:20:00.400 even though I find it painful and very complex, that 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:07.960 my parents kept the truth of my paternity UM from me, 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:11.720 and that I I grew I grew up every day 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:14.280 of my life being told I didn't look Jewish every 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:18.600 day UM. And I when I was three years old, 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:22.879 I was literally the Kodak Christmas poster child, wishing the 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:27.880 entire world a merry Christmas. UM. That was That was complicated, 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:31.240 and and I was always told your mother in some way, 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:34.120 and you know what I said before about being sort 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:37.320 of formed by what you don't know. That was hard. However, 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:42.679 if I if my parents had had some kind of 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:44.640 moment where they thought we should we should tell her 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:48.280 and sat me down when I was twelve or sixteen 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:53.240 or twenty even and told me this. At that time, 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:58.879 a there was no community, I wouldn't have known a 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:01.800 soul who was donor conceived. Or I very well might 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:03.359 have known a soul who was donor conceived, but they 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:07.120 wouldn't have known it either because everyone it was so secret. 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:10.000 So I would have been even more of a unicorn 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:13.919 than I already felt like I was. My relationship with 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:17.160 my father was much closer than my relationship with my mother, 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:20.080 and and the idea that I would I wouldn't have 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:24.080 been able to even know where to begin searching for 0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:27.040 the anonymous sperm donor that was my biological father, and 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:30.560 that you know, DNA testing wasn't yet a thing. I 0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:33.680 don't know that I would have survived at So I 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:38.320 think with family secrets, it's more about when you find 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:41.600 them out then that you find them out. I think 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:45.680 secrets are really toxic, and just because it isn't said 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:48.040 doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I think there's a way 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:50.679 in which it permeates and leaks into the air around it, 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:54.240 and it's noxious. Um I don't think my parents. I 0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:56.000 don't think there. I don't think there could have been 0:21:56.000 --> 0:21:58.640 a good solution in that case. A secret was kept 0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:01.360 from me. It probably he was the right thing, given 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:04.600 my generation, for it to be kept from me. I 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:06.800 found it out when I was fifty four years old 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:11.080 and in a really solid place in my life. I 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:13.320 told Danny earlier that I just heard a story this 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:16.639 weekend about a family friend of a friend who was 0:22:16.960 --> 0:22:19.840 a physician, and one day he sat his kids down 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:22.520 and said, I just want you all to know you 0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:28.640 probably shouldn't date anybody in Michigan. He said, I had 0:22:28.680 --> 0:22:30.879 to get through medical school. I did a lot of 0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:35.000 donating stay away from Michigan, of course, but there's none 0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:37.600 of them would have moved from Michigan. That's all, just 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:39.520 all right. So this is going to be the last 0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:42.560 question related to that point. Have you identified or tried 0:22:42.560 --> 0:22:45.600 to identify any genetic half siblings and how do you 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:47.600 view that relationship. Is it like someone who came from 0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:49.880 the same country as you sort of conceptualized that father 0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:51.800 thing or what is that? What does that look like? 0:22:52.160 --> 0:22:54.080 So the question is whether I've I've been able to 0:22:54.119 --> 0:22:57.440 identify any half siblings and the answer actually in my case, 0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:01.320