WEBVTT - TechStuff Classic: The Secret Space Plane 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.720 Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio. 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:15.800 Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:19.000 Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with I Heart Radio 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:21.919 and Hell the Tech are you. It's time for a 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:26.320 tech Stuff classic episode. This one's a secret well. It 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:30.000 published on April two thousand fifteen, and it is titled 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:36.040 The Secret space Plane. Enjoy. So we're talking about a 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:42.560 space plane, secret space plane, and uh, it's been reported 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:45.839 on in the news several times. There's a at an 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:51.360 upcoming launch that should be happening in May of um 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:54.920 it is. As we record this, it's early April, so 0:00:55.320 --> 0:00:58.640 obviously that's still always out and depending on weather and stuff, 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:01.080 it could end up being pushed back. But we wanted 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:04.679 to talk about what this plane is and we'd love 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:08.720 to talk about what it's doing. But as you'll find out, 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:12.120 that's a little complicated. There are some guesses, and as 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:17.040 we continue through today's episode, we will arrive at some 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.639 of that. But to be absolutely honest from the jump, 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:24.600 the people who do know what it's doing are totally 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:26.840 not allowed to talk about it. Yeah, this is like 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:33.200 almost Area fifty one level secrecy right where people it's 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:37.280 it's it's common knowledge that the thing exists, but not 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:40.240 common knowledge of what's going on with It's very much 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:43.039 like Area fifty one, what's for many years. So the 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:48.840 setup I have on this is on Friday October, an 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:54.800 unmanned plane landed autonomously, I should add, at Vandenburg Air 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:59.360 Force Base in California, and it had spent six hundred 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:05.120 seven in the four days, nearly two full years in 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:10.440 lower thorbit in space. It flew for two years up 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:14.160 in space. Yeah, um, so the landing marked the end 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:17.079 of the I call it a test flight, but really 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:19.760 you could just call it a mission of the X 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:23.000 thirty seven B space plane, also known as the Orbital 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:26.760 Test Vehicle or O t V. And there are two 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:30.760 of those planes in existence and together they've logged more 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:37.320 than one thousand, three hundred sixty seven days in orbit total. 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:40.839 Uh and that's across three missions. So that's a lot 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:44.560 of time at once. So you might want to know 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:48.120 what's going on. And the thing is, like we mentioned, 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:50.639 so need to know basis that you don't need to know, 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:55.960 and neither do we. Well, I think eventually that we're 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:58.240 going to know, we being the public, eventually we have 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:01.400 to know. Um, But there's there's a story behind this. 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:05.280 It's a culmination of stuff that began decades ago. Right, Yeah, 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:08.640 it started back in the nineteen nineties. Uh So turn 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:11.760 your watch back, if you will, to the magical decade 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:14.600 of the nineties. Grunge music is all the rage. You know, 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:19.760 the Generation xers are making sardonic entertainment left and right, 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:23.520 Empire records, that kind of thing. Um. So, NASA at 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:26.320 that point was looking into the future of space exploration, 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:33.760 particularly the type that doesn't need human beings on spacecraft. Yeah. 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:35.960 Humans are such a hassle in space. You have to 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:40.360 you have to spend so much time, technology and money 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:44.200 just like make them not die. Yeah, get the little 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:47.040 guys up there and back. Yeah. Yeah, keeping keeping humans 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:50.080 alive in space is a tall order because there's a 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.520 lot of stuff in space that is really deadly. Right. 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:56.360 It's not our neck of the woods, a vacuum of space. 0:03:56.440 --> 0:04:00.200 You've got radiation, You've got micro gravity, which over a 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:03.680 long enough time period can cause some serious health problems. 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:07.720 Objects at high speeds, yeah, space debris, all this sort 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:12.120 of stuff. And you know, clearly the space age we've 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:16.080 had our share of tragedies and you know, we definitely 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:18.640 aren't making light of that. That's one of the reasons 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:21.200 why so much effort and money has have been put 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:27.080 forward into these unmanned missions. And can we find ways 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:32.240 of getting stuff to space, let's say, like a like 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:37.800 a refueling mission or a you know, uh, you're replenishing 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:42.640 inventory aboard the International Space Station without the need for 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:46.479 a manned space flight. And so there there's a real 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:52.400 reason why NASA was interested in this, and um they were, 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:57.840 you know. Apart from that, it also reduces cost. Yeah, 0:04:57.920 --> 0:04:59.840 you don't have to have a life support system for 0:04:59.880 --> 0:05:04.240 a example, in an unmanned spacecraft. That alone will save 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:09.520 you millions of bucks. Right. So in NASA announced that 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:13.919 it was developing a pair of vehicles, one called the 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:17.440 orbital Vehicle and one called the Approach and Landing Test 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:21.320 Vehicle or a L t V UH. And the a 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:23.440 l t V S purpose was to test the approach 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.560 and landing systems of an unmanned plane, so this one 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:28.440 was not designed to go into space. The a L 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:31.479 t V and UH. NASA partnered with Boeing and the 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:34.520 Air Force in order to get this program going. So 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:37.040 the A L T V was just an unmantened I 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:39.400 say just it was an unmanned plane, because it was 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:42.040 amazing to me that you could build an autonomous vehicle 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:47.080 that could land a plane, yeah, on a landing strip. Well, 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:49.760 in this case, it wasn't taking off because what they 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:52.240 did with this was they would lift it up on 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:55.880 another vehicle and then drop it, and then they would 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:59.200 allow the unmanned vehicle to fly itself to the proper 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:03.400 landing destiny action and land so the al V it 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:05.839 could not take off on its own, it couldn't go 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:09.080 into space. But it was designed mainly as a test 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:12.839 platform for the autonomous guidance system and landing sort of 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:15.240 a proof of concept, Yeah, because I mean, obviously, if 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:19.760 you want to build upon this and create a vehicle, 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:22.480 an unmanned vehicle that can go into space, first you 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:25.320 want to make absolutely certain that you have taken steps 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:28.520 to a show that it can land before you pour 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:30.840 in all the money that is necessary for it to 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:33.440 be able to survive the rigors of space travel. Yeah. 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:36.480 And there's a little bit of a I guess a 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:41.120 geopolitical calculation with this kind of stuff too, because if 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:44.400 in orbit decays, right, if the thing gets into space 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:47.120 and it crashes or it just doesn't land where it's 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:50.440 supposed to. Then not only have you the launching party 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:55.320 lost billions of dollars, right, but you've also given all 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:58.560 of this research to another country, and maybe not a 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:01.080 friendly one. Yeah exactly. I mean we've seen this sort 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:05.360 of stuff throughout the history of the uh well really 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:07.479 the Cold War is you know, like things like the 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:11.200 you two's YouTube spy plane going down and the fact 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:15.000 that that was a huge concern that that uh, the 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:18.280 the adversaries to the United States had suddenly gained access 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.640 to some of that technology. Uh well, you know that's 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:23.720 clearly another concern for this sort of stuff. You want 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:25.640 to make sure that everything is working properly before you 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:29.440 ever put it towards any kind of sensitive use or 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:33.520 even just a scientific experiment or whatever. Like maybe it's 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:37.880 too you know, um deploy a satellite or something, or 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:41.000 even even something more sophisticated, like to fix a satellite 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:45.560 to repair solar panels. Yeah. Yeah, So this, like I said, 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:49.320 Boeing was partnering with NASA to develop these uh it 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:54.560 would ultimately under this part of the the program own 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:59.160 it would only develop the altar V for NASA. That's 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:01.880 as far as it got it. But it was designated 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:09.480 as the X thirty seven A aircraft or spacecraft. Really yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:12.040 it's so much easier to say that than uh, you know, 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:16.120 alt V or whatever. So it was similar to an 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:20.920 earlier unmanned aircraft that was again made by Boeing, but 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:23.600 this one was operated by the Air Force. It was 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:28.160 the X forty A H And again the X forty 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:31.280 A was meant as a test platform for things that 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:35.720 would ultimately go on an unmanned space plane type vehicle. 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.640 Uh so another proof of concept, kind of like the 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:41.480 idea that we want to make sure that we get, 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:44.199 you know, take the right steps. We're not gonna we're 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:47.280 not gonna leap and jump over like six steps of development. 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:51.320 We're gonna use this as an incremental approach. So the 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:54.040 X forty A could not actually go into space, but 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:58.080 again was to test certain technologies. It also was too 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:01.120 small for NASA, and could we yeah, it was too 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:03.920 small for naty could we Before we go on, could 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:07.880 you talk a little bit about just, uh the dramatic 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:12.880 waste in typical conventional launches. Oh? Sure, Like yeah, I mean, 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:18.120 like so generally speaking, the rule of thumb is that 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:22.880 a launch with a government funded space launch is about 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:27.360 ten tho dollars per pound. Per pound, every pound of 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:29.960 payload that you want to put into space cost ten grand. 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:34.480 So imagine that you have a vehicle that has all 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.960 these different support systems on it for astronauts. That adds 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:40.079 to the weight, plus then you have the payload of 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:43.000 the spacecraft itself. So something like the Space Shuttle program, 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:47.240 which was designed to take material into space, either as 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:50.400 like a satellite to be deployed, or tools to repair 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:53.600 things that already existed like the hubble Um, or even 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:56.400 just a trip to the International Space Station to bring 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:01.400 supplies up there. All of that weight is a factor 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:04.600 in the cost of launch. If you do an unmanned 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:08.559 spacecraft and you reduce the weight of the spacecraft, you've 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:11.280 reduced the You know, even even though the X three 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:14.640 seven A was larger than the X forty A, it's 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:19.000 still significantly smaller than a space shuttle, and that means 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:21.680 that it would cost less to put up. You know, 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:24.679 you have to use less fuel, so it costs less 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:27.240 to put it up into lower thorbit. And when I 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:30.400 say less, it's still really expensive. By the way when 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:34.160 I the reason why I stressed government funded space launch 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:37.560 is there a lot of private companies that have been 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:41.920 arguing that by privatizing they could bring down the price 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:46.000 of launching payloads into space. So things like space x 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:51.200 have really helped to to reduce that cost. So then 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:54.560 getting into the differences between the X forty A and 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:56.960 the X thirty seven A, despite the fact that it's 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:58.679 a lower number of the X three seven A is 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:03.120 a bigger spacecraft. It's a larger than the X forty A. 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:05.960 And there are other differences as well. Once we get 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:11.240 to the one that actually was designed to go into space, Yeah, 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:15.520 that one's got advanced thermal protection spacecraft systems, that kind 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:18.120 of thing. So the seven A and the forty A 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:20.559 were both designed just to be test platforms, so they 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:23.280 didn't need all that all the extra stuff. So we're 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:27.040 going through this incremental testing and starting to see if 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:32.439 we can really make this this vision a reality, this autonomous, 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:35.679 super secret spacecraft, which I just love the idea of it. 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:40.959 H out at than how um, how do the bureaucratic changes. 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:44.760 So yeah, this we're talking a lot about NASA right now, 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:47.320 and you might be thinking, well, why is this space 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:51.719 plane so secret. NASA is not about secrecy, and it's not. 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:55.400 The thirty seven A wasn't meant to be secret at all. 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:57.679 In fact, that's a lot of the information you can 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:00.160 find about the spacecraft is right there on NASA as 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:05.840 website because it's it's all publicly available. But some changes 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:11.160 would end up making the let's say, the stewardship of 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:14.800 the thirty seven X three seven program change hands. So first, 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:17.560 in two thousand one, the Air Force withdrew its support 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:20.480 for the project. It's financial support. It was one of 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:24.920 three parties that was partner to fund this, the other 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:28.360 two being NASA and Boeing. Air Force pulls out in 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:32.720 two thousand one, NASA keeps going with the partnership with Boeing. Uh. 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:36.280 They had to end up, um, you know, going to 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:40.440 the government and saying, hey, we need grants and stuff 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:42.720 in order for this to keep going, otherwise the project's 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:47.720 gonna collapse from the inside. This continues until two thousand four, 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:50.760 and that's when NASA ends up handing over the control 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:54.679 of the X thirty seven program to the Defense Advanced 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:58.480 Research Projects Agency also known as DARPA, which I've talked 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:02.720 about multiple times this podcast. Yeah, we've talked about a 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:06.720 couple of other shows to DARPA. I'm assuming that people 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:09.520 have heard this name before, but the rumors are true. 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:11.679 It is the closest thing the US has to a 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:15.319 mad science department. Yeah, it's the Department of Defense is 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:19.319 mad science department. And and it's not like DARPA is 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:23.840 filled with a bunch of yeah in lab coats, like 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:27.840 locked away forty forty levels underground. In fact, mostly what 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:33.520 DARPA does is invite other entities to develop for specific purposes. 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.760 So I did an episode not long ago talking about 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:41.840 how DARPA was instrumental in the rapid development of autonomous 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:45.959 car technology. Yeah. Um so in this it's very akin 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:50.600 to that. This is an autonomous spacecraft technology. So you know, 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:54.240 you're you're talking about the continuation of an idea and 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:58.240 just expanding it, you know, expanding the parameters. Really uh So, 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:01.520 in this case, DARPA takes over, and it meant that 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:03.400 the X three seven fell under the control of the 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:06.800 Department of Defense, which also meant that the X three 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:09.560 seven suddenly became a classified project. It was no longer 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:13.680 this this you know, very public facing project from NASA. 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:17.320 Now it's a classified project under the Department of Defense. Yeah, 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:20.920 which you know, which is kind of a bummer, but 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:26.240 also understandable given that the kind of technology that they 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:30.120 would be working on is not something you want or 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:33.600 or really can have open sourced, you know, because other 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:37.360 countries will get involved, other countries will reverse engineer, and 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:40.840 there's a lot of um Again, this is this is 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:43.800 where I think we start to see a political aspect 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:47.280 to become even more apparent. But but the story is 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:51.840 not done yet, right. So remember the Air Force had 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:55.400 pulled sort of it's it's supporting two thousand one November 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:57.840 two thousand six and announces it's going to develop a 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:01.120 variation of the X thirty seven A. Remember the orbital 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:03.760 vehicle that NASA had proposed. They never got to the 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:06.200 point where that was actually built. They had built the 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:08.960 one that was the approach and landing test vehicle, but 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:11.680 not the orbital one. And the Air Force wanted to 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:14.960 build an orbital vehicle. Uh. They called it the orbital 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:18.120 test vehicle, so the O t V UH, and they 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:22.400 designated it the X thirty seven B. So thirty seven 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:24.560 A was the one that NASA used to test this 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:30.360 approach and landing uh technology, and this one was meant 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:35.000 to actually go into space. Uh. So the top secret 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:38.640 program falls to the control of the Air Force. Now, 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:41.920 the official word from the Air Force as to the 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:45.760 purpose of the X thirty seven program is This is 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:49.400 a direct quote from their website. The X thirty seven 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:52.960 B Orbital Test Vehicle or O t V is an 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:58.600 experimental test program to demonstrate technologies for a reliable, reusable, 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:02.760 unmanned space ace test platform for the US Air Force. 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:06.200 The primary objectives of the X thirty seven B are 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:10.960 twofold reusable spacecraft technologies for America's future in space and 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:18.200 operating experiments which can be returned to and examined on Earth. So, um, 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:21.000 there's some important stuff in there that really does play 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:24.160 into the purpose of this thing. The big one being 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:27.480 that it is a reusable spacecraft, so it's not a 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:30.360 one and done right uh. And this was the same 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:32.800 purpose for the Space Shuttle program. It was the difference 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:36.960 between that and previous programs where like a capsule would 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:39.000 go up and come back down and then once it 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:41.080 came down it had to be retired. You couldn't use 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:44.000 it again. This is the difference between you know, those 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:48.200 and and those previous UH spacecraft and things like the 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:51.240 Space Shuttle and the X thirty seven spacecraft. Yeah, we're 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:53.960 kind of locked into it at this point because we've 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:57.800 put so much money in at the front, so we'll 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:00.400 have to we'll have to make that money back. Um. 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:03.760 I'm I'm just tickled because what I love about these 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:11.080 relatively obtuse kind of explanations is that there there's clearly, um, 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:15.600 there's clearly a reliance on vague language. The word test 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:18.840 is used three times in the first sentence, and the 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:21.720 substantive You are right, they are seeing substantive things. The 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:26.880 reusable spacecraft is probably the biggest part of it. Another 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:32.000 part is the testing of the instruments, which, again, although 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:35.520 you and I don't really know that, that seems like 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:38.840 one of the best guesses. Yeah, and you know, you 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:41.439 could argue that part of this, the existence of this 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:46.280 is really just too incrementally build towards a future spacecraft 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:50.600 that has not yet been designed for specific purposes that 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:54.840 may go beyond this testing that we're talking about. Uh. 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:59.959 And another one maybe that it's to test related technology 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:04.440 that are not intended to make the spacecraft itself more effective, 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:07.919 but rather just say Hey, we built this sensor. The 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:11.920 sensor is meant to do this specific task when it's 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:15.520 in space, but we don't know if the sensor can 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:20.280 actually withstand being in space, like being exposed to radiation. 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:23.520 But then you think, oh, I've got this unmanned vehicle. 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:27.240 I can put it up into orbit for hundreds of 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:31.679 days at a time and expose the sensor to the 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:34.960 same kinds of radiation it will would experience if it 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:38.560 were incorporated into some other type of spacecraft, and then 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:42.280 we can test and see if in fact the thing 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:46.160 we designed will still work, you know, once it's in space. 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:51.960 So those are I mean, that's a valid thing. But 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:55.400 but because of the secrecy involved, the fact that these 0:18:55.440 --> 0:19:01.240 these details cannot legally be shared, has led to some 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:06.520 really interesting hypotheses, some more grounded than others. I like 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:10.480 to use the term grounded. Yes, space ground here all day. 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:13.240 I'm surprised we got this far without another space fund. 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:15.719 We've got a ton in the notes, and they were all, 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:19.840 well unintentional, might be going a bit far, Like I 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:26.359 would realize that while typing it out, I'm like, oh, well, okay, 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:28.960 but we do know, we do know a lot about 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:31.880 the X thirty seven. You can see pictures of it online. 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:35.080 You can see some great footage of it that comes 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:39.320 from I think ultimately from the Air Force themselves. Yeah. Yeah, 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:43.600 because I mean the landing is impressive, right, the fact 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:47.640 that this is landing autonomously, so it's unmanned. But it's 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:51.879 not just unmanned. There's no one remote controlling this aircraft 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:54.520 when it comes down and land, right, it's not a drone. 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:57.480 That's very important. Yeah, it's it's it's fully under its 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:01.119 own nat navigation power. Uh. So here's some of the 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:02.840 facts that we know about it. And a lot of 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:05.320 this is because, again, it started its life out as 0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:08.040 a NASA project, so there were some details that were 0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:10.200 already out there and the Air Force is like, well, heck, 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:12.600 we don't care about this part. This isn't the important part. 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:16.320 Just don't talk about the lasers, right, yeah, I mean 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:20.159 the tickle device. Yeah, it's just there to tickle space. 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:22.359 That's all it's meant to do. So here's what we 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:26.320 do know. Uh. It is twenty nine ft three inches long, 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:29.600 which is about eight point nine ms. When it's on 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:32.400 its landing gear, it is nine ft six inches tall 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:36.200 or about two point nine ms now at that space. 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:39.200 Even if you had a pressurized cabin, you wouldn't be 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:41.920 able to really have astronauts right in it. Uh. The 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:44.520 X three seven B does not have a pressurized cabin, 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:48.200 so it cannot carry up anything living, at least nothing 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:51.639 that you expect to remain. So it's it could carry 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:55.919 up non animate uh like cargo that could and not 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:58.159 a whole lot of it at that's at that size 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:01.160 from wing tip to wing tip, it is four ft 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:04.399 eleven inches wide or four point five meters, and it 0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:10.200 weighs a slimming eleven thousand pounds or four thousand UH. 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:14.000 It's power system it uses lithium ion batteries to to 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:19.040 supply power to its um it's thrusters, but it is 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:23.560 uh it's got gallium arsenide solar cells to recharge those. 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:25.760 That's why it can stay in space so long. Because 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:27.919 that's the question that a lot of people have at 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:32.359 the beginning, is how does it manage to retain power 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:36.000 for that long and returned to its original um you know, 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:39.040 returned to its launch point on its own power. This 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:43.199 is not necessarily a powerful vehicle on its own No, 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:47.520 it cannot take off from Earth and it certainly cannot 0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:50.159 escape Earth's gravity on its own. It has to have 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:55.040 a launch vehicle, also more commonly referred to by we 0:21:56.040 --> 0:21:59.119 mere mortals as rockets. So you guess, trap one of 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:03.320 these suckers onto a rocket UM, typically an Atlas V 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:06.280 Applas Atlas five. I guess I should say, let's say 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:12.399 V call I X I I UM the Atlas five rocket. 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:13.960 You have to strap it up to one of those 0:22:13.960 --> 0:22:16.960 suckers to get it out into space in the first place. So, 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:21.760 and that actually has raised some folks um objections to 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:24.800 this whole approach, but we'll get into that a little bit. 0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:27.679 So the way it would work is originally they were 0:22:27.720 --> 0:22:31.359 thinking about having this kind of piggyback onto a space shuttle, 0:22:32.119 --> 0:22:33.639 so if you were going to launch a space shutle, 0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:36.400 you could also launch a space plane. However, the Columbia 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:40.600 disaster really caused NASA to reevaluate the space shuttle program 0:22:40.640 --> 0:22:42.760 for quite some time. In fact, it was it was 0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:45.960 put on the ground for a good long time after 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:49.480 the Columbia disaster, as NASA was reevaluating the program and 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:53.000 seeing how to make it so that that kind of 0:22:53.000 --> 0:22:56.639 tragedy would never happen again, so that meant that that 0:22:56.680 --> 0:22:59.160 would no longer be a viable means of getting the 0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:02.600 X thirty event into space. So at that point, the 0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:05.520 reevaluation for X thirty seven mint they looked at it 0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:09.080 as a payload for other launch vehicles, and they settled 0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:12.600 on the United Launch Alliance at last five. We'll be 0:23:12.680 --> 0:23:16.080 back with more about the secret space plane after these messages. 0:23:24.240 --> 0:23:26.200 So the launch vehicle delivers the X thirty seven to 0:23:26.240 --> 0:23:29.879 low Earth orbit. Low Earth orbit is the same orbit 0:23:29.960 --> 0:23:33.200 that you find the International Space Station. It's the same 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:37.040 Earth orbit the Hubble spacecraft or Hubble space telescope is in. 0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:39.520 It's the same Earth orbit. Or it's the same orbit 0:23:39.560 --> 0:23:42.560 that all the Space Shuttle missions went to. So in 0:23:42.560 --> 0:23:44.560 other words, there have only been a couple of times 0:23:44.560 --> 0:23:48.359 that human beings have ever gone beyond beyond low Earth orbit. 0:23:48.720 --> 0:23:52.639 Those times would be when we sent people to the Moon. Otherwise, 0:23:52.680 --> 0:23:54.840 everything has been in low Earth orbit, which is relatively 0:23:54.920 --> 0:23:58.040 close to the Earth. From our perspective, it's way the 0:23:58.119 --> 0:23:59.679 heck out there. But if you were to look at 0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:04.000 Earth from a much like not even a bird's eye view, obviously, 0:24:04.800 --> 0:24:07.119 but much further out, you would say, oh, lower th 0:24:07.240 --> 0:24:09.480 orbit is still very much in the neighborhood. Yeah, a 0:24:09.560 --> 0:24:12.240 space bird. Well, I guess one of the great ways 0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:15.320 to imagine this is if you look at a picture 0:24:15.400 --> 0:24:19.320 with the distance between Earth's Moon and Earth and then 0:24:19.359 --> 0:24:24.200 you see the line your Earth orbit is very very close. Yeah, exactly, 0:24:24.240 --> 0:24:27.040 And it's also where a lot of space debris happens 0:24:27.080 --> 0:24:29.400 to be. There's other space because we do have satellites 0:24:29.400 --> 0:24:32.160 that are much further out right, We've got like the 0:24:32.160 --> 0:24:35.600 the geosynchronous satellites are much further out than lower th orbit. 0:24:35.920 --> 0:24:40.000 But those were delivered by unmanned spacecraft. They weren't They 0:24:40.000 --> 0:24:44.080 weren't put there by astronauts. Uh, So that that is, 0:24:44.359 --> 0:24:46.679 you know, we do have stuff that's further out, but 0:24:46.720 --> 0:24:50.119 it's not stuff from manned missions. And this unmanned mission 0:24:50.119 --> 0:24:54.480 would end up going and that's say, very low Earth orbit. Uh, 0:24:54.520 --> 0:24:58.840 and it could stay. Originally, I think they were planning 0:24:58.880 --> 0:25:02.840 on having it stayed between two entered in three days. Yeah, 0:25:03.040 --> 0:25:05.639 that would be pretty much the limit that was originally, 0:25:05.720 --> 0:25:07.600 or at least that was kind of what the mission 0:25:07.640 --> 0:25:10.320 parameters were going to be. But as it turns out, 0:25:10.359 --> 0:25:12.400 it can stay up there much longer than that. So 0:25:12.560 --> 0:25:17.440 the very first mission for an X thirty seven launched 0:25:17.440 --> 0:25:23.800 on April and landed on December three. Landed without a hitch. 0:25:24.359 --> 0:25:27.520 Some of their tests landings that they did where they 0:25:27.560 --> 0:25:31.760 just dropped one of these X thirty seven's from another aircraft, 0:25:32.400 --> 0:25:36.040 some of them were successful, not all of them were. Yeah, 0:25:36.280 --> 0:25:38.480 they had some issues where I think on the very 0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:41.320 I think the very first time they tried to land 0:25:41.400 --> 0:25:46.200 one um when the mission hadn't been scrapped for weather. 0:25:46.600 --> 0:25:49.560 It ended up landing on the landing strip, but it 0:25:49.680 --> 0:25:52.919 overshot a little bit and rolled off the end and 0:25:53.000 --> 0:25:57.000 sustained minor damage. No. No, And then remember they built 0:25:57.000 --> 0:25:59.440 two of these things. Originally they were just going to 0:25:59.520 --> 0:26:02.240 do one, but they ended up building two. So that 0:26:02.359 --> 0:26:07.520 first mission lasted two hundred twenty four days, and the 0:26:08.000 --> 0:26:12.320 X thirty seven traveled approximately ninety one million miles in 0:26:12.320 --> 0:26:14.639 those two four days, which is about a hundred forty 0:26:14.680 --> 0:26:19.000 six million kilometers. The second mission was launched on March 0:26:19.080 --> 0:26:22.360 five eleven. Now this was the second of the two 0:26:22.520 --> 0:26:25.159 X thirty seven, so it wasn't the same one that 0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:29.320 went up in important to remember because remember the whole 0:26:29.320 --> 0:26:32.480 purpose of these was so you have reusable the idea 0:26:32.520 --> 0:26:35.600 being you could turn it around fairly quickly and launch 0:26:35.640 --> 0:26:38.159 it for a new mission. But they didn't reuse the 0:26:38.160 --> 0:26:41.800 original one, not for this one. They decided, all right, 0:26:41.800 --> 0:26:44.000 we're going to stagger these. So the second one went 0:26:44.080 --> 0:26:49.000 up in on March two thousand eleven. Uh, this was 0:26:49.080 --> 0:26:52.679 supposed to only last only is a weird way of 0:26:52.680 --> 0:26:56.160 putting it. Only last two hundred seventy days as an 0:26:56.200 --> 0:26:59.400 incredibly long time to just be you know, just being 0:26:59.440 --> 0:27:01.800 a space craft. Remember it's not the International Space Station 0:27:01.880 --> 0:27:05.120 or anything like that. But on November twenty nine, two 0:27:05.119 --> 0:27:06.920 tho eleven, the Air Force announced it was going to 0:27:07.040 --> 0:27:09.199 extend the mission, you know, just let go for a 0:27:09.200 --> 0:27:14.280 while off. So it eventually landed on June twelve, which 0:27:14.320 --> 0:27:17.439 means it lasted four hundred sixty nine days. That is 0:27:17.600 --> 0:27:21.760 mind blowing. Yeah, so the spacecraft was just orbiting Earth 0:27:22.560 --> 0:27:25.040 for four six days. Sometimes, by the way, it's low 0:27:25.160 --> 0:27:30.840 enough that you can spot it. Amateur satellite investigators or 0:27:30.880 --> 0:27:34.760 observers can check it out. You can go online, uh 0:27:34.880 --> 0:27:38.680 and find the find the correct forums, which allow you 0:27:38.760 --> 0:27:43.320 to track pretty much anything that is in orbit. If 0:27:43.359 --> 0:27:46.520 it's close enough to be seen, it's it's the Great 0:27:46.600 --> 0:27:50.800 Achilles heel of secrecy in space. Yeah. Yeah, if you're like, hey, 0:27:50.840 --> 0:27:54.200 that's stars moving, the chances are it's not a star, 0:27:54.400 --> 0:27:57.800 and it's not. It's not the Death Star. Probably probably, 0:27:57.800 --> 0:28:01.439 it's more likely a space station or a spacecraft. Um. 0:28:01.520 --> 0:28:05.960 So the third mission launched onto Samarrella at h and 0:28:06.000 --> 0:28:10.399 this one was the same spacecraft that did the launched 0:28:10.440 --> 0:28:12.679 So this was the first one, the first X thirty 0:28:12.720 --> 0:28:20.119 seven b Um. Now this particular one, uh, lasted for 0:28:20.320 --> 0:28:22.119 six hundred seventy four days. This is the one we 0:28:22.119 --> 0:28:24.919 talked about where it was just shy of two years. Um, 0:28:25.560 --> 0:28:28.760 pretty amazing that it could stay up that long. It 0:28:28.920 --> 0:28:31.600 landed on October seventeen, So this is the one I 0:28:31.640 --> 0:28:34.959 was referring to at the top of the show. And uh, 0:28:35.080 --> 0:28:38.240 the fourth mission is scheduled to launch on May six, 0:28:39.240 --> 0:28:41.720 but again we're in early April as we record this, 0:28:41.840 --> 0:28:45.760 so that's still in our future, right. But what happens 0:28:45.800 --> 0:28:51.000 on these missions, that's a great question. Then Remember how 0:28:51.040 --> 0:28:53.560 I said it was classified in top secret? Do you 0:28:53.600 --> 0:28:56.240 think I have that clearance? Where are we going? I 0:28:56.280 --> 0:28:58.760 thought this was I thought you were doing a bit. 0:28:59.040 --> 0:29:01.160 You're the guy who who knows the stuff. They don't 0:29:01.160 --> 0:29:03.200 want you to know if anything, I should be asking 0:29:03.240 --> 0:29:06.360 you this question. Well, uh yeah, well here's the thing, 0:29:06.680 --> 0:29:08.840 and and and thank you for the shout out. But 0:29:09.920 --> 0:29:14.840 rumors proliferate in the in the absence of Transparency's actually 0:29:14.880 --> 0:29:18.680 absolutely like if you you know, you obviously can't deny 0:29:18.720 --> 0:29:22.760 the existence of this thing, because we all know it exists, 0:29:23.320 --> 0:29:26.719 but if you cannot also explain the reason for it, 0:29:26.840 --> 0:29:29.880 or what its purposes or what it is doing, then 0:29:29.960 --> 0:29:33.560 in the absence that vacuum of information, nature of whorrors 0:29:33.560 --> 0:29:37.760 a vacuum. So we'll fill it with conjecture. Don't worry 0:29:37.760 --> 0:29:40.200 about not telling us what it does. We will take 0:29:40.240 --> 0:29:43.440 care of that for you by suggesting every kind of 0:29:43.480 --> 0:29:47.200 hypothesis you can imagine. Okay, But with all that being said, 0:29:47.720 --> 0:29:50.520 now we get to do one of the most enjoyable, 0:29:50.600 --> 0:29:55.760 fascinating and sometimes slippery slopish kind of things, which is 0:29:56.040 --> 0:29:59.400 we begin to assemble some of the facts we definitely 0:29:59.480 --> 0:30:02.600 know and see if that builds out toward a larger picture. 0:30:02.680 --> 0:30:05.040 Right all right, Yeah, So here's here's what we know. 0:30:05.600 --> 0:30:08.240 DARPA took control of it. It's part of the Department 0:30:08.280 --> 0:30:11.400 of Defense. The Air Force is running it, so it's 0:30:11.440 --> 0:30:15.040 a military operation. With it being a military operation, you 0:30:15.040 --> 0:30:17.800 can therefore assume that it's going to be doing some 0:30:18.720 --> 0:30:24.240 things that would in the long term support military operations. Right, 0:30:24.320 --> 0:30:28.240 it's not. It's not gonna be a cable television satellite 0:30:28.240 --> 0:30:31.800 deployment device. That's not gonna help you know, the air forces. 0:30:31.840 --> 0:30:34.200 Like we're strapped for cash. Let's see if Comcast wants 0:30:34.240 --> 0:30:36.239 us to put something up in the sky, that's not 0:30:36.280 --> 0:30:40.640 gonna happen. So therefore we narrow that the down the 0:30:40.760 --> 0:30:45.000 possible uses for this to military things that would benefit 0:30:45.040 --> 0:30:48.640 the military in some form or fashion. Yeah, that makes sense, 0:30:48.880 --> 0:30:53.760 So that gives us some some direction. Uh So. One 0:30:53.760 --> 0:30:58.280 of the popular hypotheses is that the X three seven 0:30:58.360 --> 0:31:02.000 is acting like a spy settle light which maybe to 0:31:02.280 --> 0:31:08.280 spy upon land targets or even other spacecraft other targets 0:31:08.280 --> 0:31:11.040 in space, so it could be a satellite. Um. In fact, 0:31:11.040 --> 0:31:14.400 there were a lot of people saying, hey, this you know, 0:31:14.480 --> 0:31:18.480 most recent test had the spacecraft, the X thirty seven, 0:31:19.480 --> 0:31:23.440 on the same general orbit as a Chinese satellite. Yeah, 0:31:23.480 --> 0:31:27.640 the Tongue Young one or some and yeah, and that's 0:31:27.680 --> 0:31:30.080 a that's a space lab has been up for a while. 0:31:30.160 --> 0:31:34.080 It has its own refueling, So of course people people 0:31:34.080 --> 0:31:37.680 would guess that this is a satellite either spine on 0:31:37.760 --> 0:31:42.400 other satellites or giving imagery from the ground mapping. In 0:31:42.440 --> 0:31:45.920 other words, in the orbitable path of the X thirty 0:31:46.000 --> 0:31:50.480 seven B takes it over on Southeast Asia, Latin America, 0:31:50.960 --> 0:31:53.840 parts the Middle East, notably I Rock. So it's not 0:31:54.120 --> 0:31:57.640 an unreasonable guess. Yeah, you can understand why people would 0:31:57.760 --> 0:32:02.760 would suggest this. And we don't know all the equipment 0:32:02.760 --> 0:32:05.000 that's aboard the X thirty seven years. I have noticed 0:32:05.000 --> 0:32:07.360 that we didn't give you a rundown on like it 0:32:07.440 --> 0:32:09.840 has this kind of camera system on it or because 0:32:09.880 --> 0:32:12.040 we don't know, but we'd love to do that. But 0:32:12.320 --> 0:32:14.000 the stuff we do know is sort of vague. We 0:32:14.040 --> 0:32:16.640 know it has the solar array, right, we know that. 0:32:17.280 --> 0:32:19.800 We know that's what allows it to stay up for 0:32:19.840 --> 0:32:22.680 so long. Uh, you know, I can't say that would 0:32:22.680 --> 0:32:25.200 be able to stay up indefinitely, but it certainly is 0:32:25.200 --> 0:32:27.520 staying up there an incredibly long amount of time for 0:32:28.120 --> 0:32:31.160 something designed to fly up and fly back down. You 0:32:31.160 --> 0:32:34.760 know it's not again, it's not space station. Um. So 0:32:36.120 --> 0:32:39.000 here's the thing about the idea of it spying on 0:32:39.040 --> 0:32:44.520 the space Lab. That's not really physically possible, right, yeah, absolutely, 0:32:44.720 --> 0:32:47.480 because you can you can check out some of the 0:32:47.520 --> 0:32:51.760 words from the analysts. This idea of it following a 0:32:51.800 --> 0:32:56.160 satellite came about from that speculation. But there's a guy 0:32:56.200 --> 0:33:00.320 named Jim Oberg who is who is a space analyst, 0:33:00.400 --> 0:33:02.560 which is a great job to have. Yeah, I would 0:33:02.560 --> 0:33:06.800 love to have that job. Looks pretty empty to me. Yeah, 0:33:07.080 --> 0:33:10.440 I believe that's a star. No, it's moving, Yeah, exactly. 0:33:10.480 --> 0:33:13.240 We'd be very good at that. Yeah, I think I 0:33:13.280 --> 0:33:17.080 think we got a new podcast, so so um, let's 0:33:17.120 --> 0:33:19.840 go ahead and and uh, we'll we'll finish quoting Jim 0:33:19.840 --> 0:33:21.760 and invite him to the show later on our on 0:33:21.800 --> 0:33:25.400 our space anitles stuff. Uh. He points out that these 0:33:25.440 --> 0:33:29.280 two objects, the Chinese Space Lab and the X thirty 0:33:29.320 --> 0:33:32.800 seven B, there in orbits that crossed the equator about 0:33:32.920 --> 0:33:36.120 ninety degrees apart. So when they do criss cross each 0:33:36.120 --> 0:33:39.680 other's paths, they're going thousands of meters per second. So 0:33:39.920 --> 0:33:43.360 how how can you make an observation You're you're going 0:33:43.440 --> 0:33:47.120 by so quickly that there's no there's no way to 0:33:47.120 --> 0:33:50.400 get any meaningful information. Um, it would be kind of like, 0:33:50.760 --> 0:33:53.760 let's let's imagine that Ben for a moment, that that 0:33:53.840 --> 0:33:58.280 you're writing with Scott. Okay, yeah, Scott, Scott from car stuff, 0:33:58.400 --> 0:34:02.600 because you guys do car stuff. To Scott, he's got 0:34:02.600 --> 0:34:06.600 a lead foot man. He likes he likes to drive fast. 0:34:07.240 --> 0:34:10.759 So let's say that he's driving by uh, you're you're 0:34:10.800 --> 0:34:13.200 in the passenger seat. He's he's flying down the road. 0:34:13.239 --> 0:34:17.920 He's in one of his his amazingly souped up muscle cars. 0:34:18.239 --> 0:34:21.120 By the way, tostally making this up. But let's let's 0:34:21.120 --> 0:34:23.279 say that he's or sports vehicle. Let's say it's either 0:34:23.400 --> 0:34:25.480 faster than a muscle car. It's a sports car that's 0:34:25.600 --> 0:34:27.920 designed to go fast. It's it's one of those that 0:34:28.000 --> 0:34:32.120 was converted from an old race car. And you zoom 0:34:32.280 --> 0:34:36.799 past a person that neither of you know, and he 0:34:36.840 --> 0:34:40.160 asks you what colored their eyes were. It's like that, 0:34:40.320 --> 0:34:44.920 except multiply it by way faster speeds. So it's just 0:34:44.960 --> 0:34:48.040 it's it's impossible to get any kind of meaningful information 0:34:48.120 --> 0:34:52.160 from that. So what's another hypothesis. How about it's not 0:34:52.440 --> 0:34:56.640 actually doing any spying of its own, it's just testing 0:34:56.719 --> 0:35:01.359 spy technology. Okay, like, what why would they be doing that. Well, 0:35:01.440 --> 0:35:04.600 let's say that again, kind of like that idea of 0:35:04.680 --> 0:35:08.160 these sensors that you might want in order to uh 0:35:08.400 --> 0:35:13.920 to monitor something like uh nuclear deployment in another country, 0:35:14.080 --> 0:35:16.840 or any other kind of sensor you can imagine that 0:35:16.880 --> 0:35:20.280 would be useful for military purposes. And they've built these 0:35:20.400 --> 0:35:23.320 on Earth. See here's the downfall that we have about 0:35:23.320 --> 0:35:26.439 our our technologies for space. We have to build them 0:35:26.480 --> 0:35:30.920 for the most part here on Earth. Sore. Yeah, that's 0:35:30.960 --> 0:35:33.759 where we keep all our stuff, right, That's the way 0:35:33.800 --> 0:35:36.080 the tick would say, not the Earth. That's where I 0:35:36.160 --> 0:35:39.839 keep all my stuff. So because we have all that 0:35:39.920 --> 0:35:42.600 stuff here and we're developing everything here, we're building it here, 0:35:42.920 --> 0:35:46.640 we can never be fully certain that the thing we 0:35:46.760 --> 0:35:49.960 designed here on Earth is going to work the way 0:35:50.000 --> 0:35:53.680 we had intended once it's in space. So it may 0:35:53.800 --> 0:35:58.120 be that this is acting as a platform to test 0:35:58.160 --> 0:36:01.440 these technologies, see if they are in fact viable in 0:36:01.480 --> 0:36:05.520 a space environment, and return to Earth, so that we 0:36:05.560 --> 0:36:09.120 can be certain that the stuff we developed is in 0:36:09.200 --> 0:36:11.440 fact doing what it was intended to do, or at 0:36:11.480 --> 0:36:14.080 least figure out how it broke. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, if 0:36:14.080 --> 0:36:16.319 it's not working, then we try and figure out why 0:36:16.400 --> 0:36:19.040 is it not working? What caused that? What was the 0:36:19.080 --> 0:36:24.120 thing was? Did it encounter a like some cosmic radiation 0:36:24.200 --> 0:36:26.759 and it ended up messing everything up? If so, is 0:36:26.800 --> 0:36:28.840 there some way we can shield it from that that 0:36:28.960 --> 0:36:31.960 kind of thing? I think actually that this is probably 0:36:31.960 --> 0:36:37.239 the the most likely out of all the different hypotheses. Yeah, 0:36:37.320 --> 0:36:39.920 I agree, because pretty much what the Air Force has said, 0:36:40.760 --> 0:36:44.360 and and it's it has precedent behind it because they've 0:36:44.400 --> 0:36:47.960 continually built these platforms, as you said earlier, So it 0:36:48.000 --> 0:36:50.760 makes sense. And you also want to check because especially 0:36:50.800 --> 0:36:54.240 if this is new, uh new technology of any sort, 0:36:54.400 --> 0:36:56.319 it's going to be a little bit delicate and you know, 0:36:56.560 --> 0:37:01.239 sensors are well sensitive. Yeah yeah, And and you could 0:37:01.280 --> 0:37:03.080 even argue that maybe it doesn't even go that far. 0:37:03.160 --> 0:37:06.040 Maybe it's just the Air Force wanting to test this 0:37:06.160 --> 0:37:11.400 autonomous uh nature and to make sure that they can 0:37:11.440 --> 0:37:15.720 rely upon it even if the mission extends much further 0:37:15.800 --> 0:37:19.960 out than what was originally anticipated. That's valuable information to know. 0:37:20.200 --> 0:37:25.040 Maybe it's not doing anything remotely you know, secret right now, 0:37:25.120 --> 0:37:28.720 other than just making sure it works, which that's important 0:37:28.760 --> 0:37:32.759 to know, and we can't know without the tests. So 0:37:33.640 --> 0:37:37.279 then there's another hypothesis where um, the X thirty seven 0:37:37.320 --> 0:37:41.640 is a delivery mechanism for space weapons space weapon. How 0:37:41.680 --> 0:37:45.120 do we define space weapons? That's an excellent question. It's 0:37:45.160 --> 0:37:47.560 one that cannot be answered right now, because it's a 0:37:47.640 --> 0:37:50.880 question that comes up over and over in treaty discussions 0:37:51.160 --> 0:37:57.680 and uh arms control discussions. People disagree over and by 0:37:57.719 --> 0:38:01.279 people I mean states like country. These disagree over the 0:38:01.280 --> 0:38:04.960 definition of space weapons. So for example, perhaps you have 0:38:05.000 --> 0:38:09.280 a missile detection system, like a satellite system that's deployed. 0:38:09.920 --> 0:38:12.480 Some would argue that as a space weapon. Now it 0:38:12.560 --> 0:38:15.520 might be up space weapon in the form of defense, 0:38:16.800 --> 0:38:20.960 but they would still argue that counts under certain definitions. 0:38:21.000 --> 0:38:24.880 And other states, presumably the states that actually have missile 0:38:25.280 --> 0:38:29.279 detection systems in place, would say this totally doesn't count 0:38:29.320 --> 0:38:32.400 as a space weapon. And we'll talk more about why 0:38:32.440 --> 0:38:36.600 they would say that a little bit later. But the Pentagon, 0:38:36.840 --> 0:38:39.719 just for the record, denies that in fact, the X 0:38:39.719 --> 0:38:42.320 thirty seven has anything to do with space weapon deployment. 0:38:42.440 --> 0:38:47.120 Explicitly denies it. And also, you know this concern about 0:38:47.280 --> 0:38:50.400 space weapons and militarization. I know, we'll talk about it 0:38:50.400 --> 0:38:53.040 a little bit later, but there is also precedent in 0:38:54.239 --> 0:39:01.400 unclassified public record Pentagon statements, especially under Rumsfelds heading of 0:39:01.520 --> 0:39:06.799 the administration, Donald Rumsfeld, there is an active desire on 0:39:06.840 --> 0:39:09.960 the part of not just the US but other countries 0:39:10.320 --> 0:39:14.880 to to explore the possibilities of defensive capability in space. 0:39:15.360 --> 0:39:17.359 It just makes sense. It's not a secret. I mean, 0:39:17.680 --> 0:39:21.759 anyone who lived through the eighties remembers the star Wars program, 0:39:21.760 --> 0:39:24.400 the so called star Wars program, which was a proposed 0:39:24.400 --> 0:39:29.960 and ultimately abandoned plan to put an anti missile system 0:39:30.040 --> 0:39:34.319 into space to protect against the potential first strike situation 0:39:35.080 --> 0:39:37.440 or even you know, not even a first strike, but 0:39:37.480 --> 0:39:41.560 maybe even a counter strike if you're being super cynical 0:39:42.160 --> 0:39:45.200 of uh, you know, a system meant to to uh 0:39:45.520 --> 0:39:50.880 disarm or disable incoming missiles that could target the United States. Ultimately, 0:39:50.920 --> 0:39:55.120 it didn't go into place. Um and I want to 0:39:55.160 --> 0:39:57.240 say I've done an episode about that, but if I haven't, 0:39:57.239 --> 0:40:01.520 I absolutely need to. Yeah, I feel we talked about this, 0:40:01.640 --> 0:40:03.480 maybe we talked about off air, but that would be 0:40:03.520 --> 0:40:06.640 that would be a fantastic episode. Uh, It's it's such 0:40:06.680 --> 0:40:09.319 an it's such an interesting thing. We could also talk 0:40:09.360 --> 0:40:13.239 about dead hands systems, but that's a story for another day, 0:40:13.440 --> 0:40:18.560 A strange love stuff. Yeah, I'm almost certain that Chris 0:40:18.560 --> 0:40:20.479 and I did one episode on it at some point, 0:40:20.520 --> 0:40:22.360 but I'll have to do as search because once you 0:40:22.400 --> 0:40:27.800 do around seven hundred episodes, you really can't remember what kinds. Yeah. Well, 0:40:27.840 --> 0:40:30.600 and for me, honestly, after I did about ten episodes, 0:40:30.600 --> 0:40:35.120 I was But so anyway, there are other hypotheses as 0:40:35.120 --> 0:40:38.080 well or other other um statements that have come out 0:40:38.120 --> 0:40:42.040 from various experts about the potential use of the X 0:40:42.080 --> 0:40:46.200 thirty seven. Uh. Laura Grego of the Global Security Program 0:40:46.200 --> 0:40:50.080 at the Union of Concerned Scientists says that the design 0:40:50.080 --> 0:40:52.520 of the X thirty seven really limits what it could 0:40:52.520 --> 0:40:55.920 be able to do, and she says that really can't 0:40:55.920 --> 0:40:59.280 maneuver easily in orbit, so it would be very limited 0:40:59.280 --> 0:41:03.040 in its use as either spy technology or a space weapon. 0:41:03.560 --> 0:41:07.000 Like we were saying earlier, you can sometimes see this 0:41:07.080 --> 0:41:11.200 thing from Earth, so maneuvering it is it's really hard 0:41:11.239 --> 0:41:14.080 to make that a secret, right, right. Let's say, like 0:41:14.160 --> 0:41:16.880 if if everyone notices that the X thirty seven happens 0:41:16.920 --> 0:41:20.000 to be in a particular quadrant that's near say a 0:41:20.120 --> 0:41:23.640 Russian spy satellite, and that spy satellite suddenly goes offline. 0:41:24.000 --> 0:41:26.800 It does not take a lot of imagination to connect 0:41:26.840 --> 0:41:32.759 those two things together. Yeah, so probably not going to 0:41:32.800 --> 0:41:36.960 be used for clandestine purposes in that case. Um. She 0:41:37.040 --> 0:41:39.400 also says it's not large enough to be a satellite launcher. 0:41:39.440 --> 0:41:42.120 It doesn't have the cargo capacity to hold most satellites. 0:41:42.160 --> 0:41:45.480 I mean, if you're talking about like the small cluster 0:41:45.560 --> 0:41:49.160 satellites that some people have referred to. Maybe, but it's 0:41:49.239 --> 0:41:53.520 not designed to carry anything of substantial size, so that's 0:41:53.560 --> 0:41:55.640 probably not what it's being used. What it can do, 0:41:55.760 --> 0:41:58.759 she says, is carry cargo up into space and that's 0:41:58.760 --> 0:42:03.480 about it. Then you have another expert, Mark Gubrand or Gubrid, 0:42:03.640 --> 0:42:06.880 who is an adjunct assistant professor of physics and Astronomy 0:42:06.880 --> 0:42:09.759 at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, who says 0:42:09.800 --> 0:42:12.520 that space planes like the X thirty seven are not 0:42:12.680 --> 0:42:16.480 more effective than traditional launches of satellites or space weapons, 0:42:16.560 --> 0:42:20.040 even potential space weapons. So in other words, putting them 0:42:20.080 --> 0:42:24.240 into other types of spacecraft to go up into space 0:42:24.320 --> 0:42:26.919 that that aren't designed to come back down, so there's 0:42:26.960 --> 0:42:30.360 no real advantage, Like, yeah, you've got the reusable factor, 0:42:30.400 --> 0:42:33.600 which presumably would cut down on the cost somewhat of 0:42:33.600 --> 0:42:38.480 space launches, but that it's such a complicated endeavor and 0:42:38.480 --> 0:42:40.520 it's really designed to stay up there for a really 0:42:40.560 --> 0:42:43.239 long time, that it doesn't make sense to use it 0:42:43.280 --> 0:42:46.320 as a delivery mechanism. There's no reason why your delivery 0:42:46.320 --> 0:42:49.800 mechanism would need to remain up in low Earth orbit 0:42:50.560 --> 0:42:53.440 for hundreds of days. You just get out there, you 0:42:53.480 --> 0:42:56.600 deliver it, you're done. So his argument is that, well, 0:42:56.680 --> 0:42:59.000 it doesn't really make sense. In fact, he would argue 0:42:59.040 --> 0:43:02.120 that the only reason at the program still exists because 0:43:02.120 --> 0:43:04.680 it has so much momentum, that there was so much 0:43:04.760 --> 0:43:09.080 money and effort put into developing it, that it would 0:43:09.480 --> 0:43:11.600 you know, it's kind of taken a life of its own. 0:43:11.960 --> 0:43:14.279 It's a soak cost at this point. Yeah, saying that, 0:43:14.320 --> 0:43:17.560 you know, it doesn't make sense compared to the alternatives. However, 0:43:18.080 --> 0:43:21.240 it's we already got the ball rolling and now it's 0:43:21.280 --> 0:43:24.600 going to continue to roll right wherever it ends up rolling. 0:43:24.640 --> 0:43:27.759 And then there's another interesting thing that you have proposed. 0:43:27.960 --> 0:43:29.960 You said, what what if it's what if there's a 0:43:30.000 --> 0:43:33.400 psychological aspect? Yeah, there there's some who have suggested that 0:43:33.440 --> 0:43:37.120 perhaps at least part of the reason why this project. 0:43:37.320 --> 0:43:40.000 Let's say that the project ultimately people say, yeah, there's 0:43:40.000 --> 0:43:43.200 no there's no practical reason to continue it because we 0:43:43.239 --> 0:43:46.919 can accomplish a lot of the same goals using alternative 0:43:46.960 --> 0:43:51.719 means that don't require this autonomous vehicle. UM. Some have said, well, 0:43:51.760 --> 0:43:56.440 maybe it's just a kind of freak out potential adversaries 0:43:56.520 --> 0:44:02.000 like the Chinese. I like, okay, first off, that sounds 0:44:02.160 --> 0:44:05.160 so ridiculous on the offset. It sounds like a billion 0:44:05.200 --> 0:44:08.680 dollar prank, you know, I agree, like, like, hey, guys, 0:44:08.719 --> 0:44:12.400 you know, I'm concerned about what's happening over in China, 0:44:12.480 --> 0:44:15.319 and obviously we can't declare war or anything like that, 0:44:15.440 --> 0:44:19.800 but how do we scare them? Now? You could say that, however, 0:44:19.880 --> 0:44:22.719 SPOT think was kind of that, you know, that's not 0:44:22.760 --> 0:44:25.520 a bad that's not a bad comparison, and we we 0:44:25.560 --> 0:44:29.080 do know that right now, there's there's this very um 0:44:29.120 --> 0:44:34.279 sensitive is a good word, A sensitive and ongoing uh 0:44:34.880 --> 0:44:39.279 elbow knocking between nations in space. UM. One thing that 0:44:39.320 --> 0:44:42.560 working on this episode made me think about was the 0:44:42.640 --> 0:44:45.640 incident in two thousand seven where the Chinese government shot 0:44:45.680 --> 0:44:49.560 a satellite down from space and it was it was 0:44:50.080 --> 0:44:52.960 pitched to the public as like whom it was bad 0:44:53.040 --> 0:44:56.720 and we wanted to make sure that nothing terrible happened 0:44:56.719 --> 0:44:58.239 to it, so we took care of it. But it 0:44:58.320 --> 0:45:01.640 was also there was a sigh logical aspect between the 0:45:01.719 --> 0:45:04.920 countries right too. Here's what we can do, ye look 0:45:04.920 --> 0:45:07.640 at our capability. We can bring down a satellite from 0:45:07.920 --> 0:45:10.880 the surface, like we can launch an attack from the 0:45:10.920 --> 0:45:13.920 surface of the Earth and bring down a satellite. Also, 0:45:13.960 --> 0:45:17.280 the rest of the world said, guys, don't don't clutter 0:45:17.360 --> 0:45:20.640 up space more than it already. You are literally making 0:45:20.680 --> 0:45:23.640 it more dangerous for everything else that's out in low 0:45:23.640 --> 0:45:26.200 earth orbit. I mean, maybe that's the reason there hasn't 0:45:26.239 --> 0:45:30.080 been any extraterrestrial contact. Maybe we're the equivalent of people 0:45:30.120 --> 0:45:33.000 who have refrigerators and stuff in their yard, or or 0:45:33.200 --> 0:45:36.520 or the equivalent of like, well, you know, I really 0:45:36.520 --> 0:45:39.399 want to check out that beautiful waterfall, but there's all 0:45:39.440 --> 0:45:43.200 this abandoned barbed wire and broken glass here. I'm kind 0:45:43.200 --> 0:45:44.880 of scared that if I try and walk through there, 0:45:44.880 --> 0:45:47.360 I'm going to cut myself up. Like that's that's because 0:45:47.360 --> 0:45:50.200 I mean, space debris a serious problem, not just for 0:45:50.400 --> 0:45:54.360 manned missions, but unmanned spacecraft as well. Like you know, 0:45:54.480 --> 0:45:57.840 we could have communications satellites that would get taken down 0:45:58.000 --> 0:46:01.560 if they encountered space debris. We're talking about things that 0:46:01.600 --> 0:46:05.400 could be really tiny, I mean just like a couple 0:46:05.400 --> 0:46:09.400 of centimeters per side, but traveling at those amazing speeds, 0:46:09.880 --> 0:46:12.200 they could do massive amounts of damage if they collide 0:46:12.200 --> 0:46:15.560 with something. Now, on the positive side, space is really big, 0:46:16.160 --> 0:46:20.439 right on the On the the less positive side, first 0:46:20.440 --> 0:46:23.280 of all, there all all of these things are largely 0:46:23.320 --> 0:46:27.440 in the same general orbit, you know, lower thorbit. Secondly, 0:46:27.960 --> 0:46:31.279 the more debris you have, the more the greater the 0:46:31.280 --> 0:46:35.359 odds increase of some sort of unintended collision. We've got 0:46:35.440 --> 0:46:38.040 a bit more about this secret space plane to talk about, 0:46:38.040 --> 0:46:49.640 but first let's take a quick break. So making more 0:46:50.440 --> 0:46:53.640 garbage up there is not great. And then there's also, 0:46:54.280 --> 0:46:58.240 um a quote that you found from the London Times. Ah, yes, uh, 0:46:58.239 --> 0:47:03.000 well back and unnamed Air force official yeah or woman 0:47:03.480 --> 0:47:08.120 or that person, yes, a recurring character. An unnamed Air 0:47:08.160 --> 0:47:12.239 Force official did note that the ultimate goal of the 0:47:12.360 --> 0:47:16.680 X thirty seven B is to aid terrestrial war fighters, 0:47:17.040 --> 0:47:20.000 which is still pretty vague. It's super vague, but it 0:47:20.040 --> 0:47:23.440 does confirm that there is a military aspect by the 0:47:23.480 --> 0:47:27.360 Air Force who knew. Yeah, right, I think again, you know, 0:47:27.400 --> 0:47:31.680 we see people chasing explanations or speculation about what this is. 0:47:31.920 --> 0:47:36.319 But there's clearly something about UM an informational edge that 0:47:36.520 --> 0:47:39.120 I think he's in there. And you know, to be 0:47:39.160 --> 0:47:42.560 fair that that phrasing, it could mean anything, right, it 0:47:42.600 --> 0:47:46.440 could anything. It could It could mean reconnaissance. It could 0:47:46.480 --> 0:47:51.000 mean support in the sense of uh sending up a 0:47:51.120 --> 0:47:54.960 new satellite, small satellite, I guess, or or some other 0:47:55.040 --> 0:47:58.280 kind of payload. Or it could mean some kind of weaponization. 0:47:58.360 --> 0:48:01.279 I mean, it's so vaguely find that it could mean 0:48:01.320 --> 0:48:03.880 any of those things. So again, and more often than not, 0:48:03.960 --> 0:48:07.200 it fuels the speculation as opposed to oh now I 0:48:07.280 --> 0:48:10.880 understand exactly. Yeah, it's there's there's something a little platitude 0:48:10.920 --> 0:48:13.880 and this about it. But but this brings us to 0:48:13.880 --> 0:48:19.160 a bigger issue, which you and I have been fascinated by. Yeah, 0:48:19.560 --> 0:48:24.680 the concept of weaponization of space, like putting weapons into 0:48:24.719 --> 0:48:28.879 space for the purposes of warfare. So we're talking like 0:48:29.920 --> 0:48:34.400 everything from those missile defense systems to something that's more 0:48:34.440 --> 0:48:39.000 of an attack based form of warfare, something like a 0:48:39.200 --> 0:48:43.759 system that could either launch missiles or other types of 0:48:43.800 --> 0:48:50.800 weaponry from space or support some other coordinated warfare efforts. Uh. 0:48:50.920 --> 0:48:54.480 And obviously this is one of those things that is 0:48:55.200 --> 0:48:58.880 a very delicate subject, particularly when you look at the 0:48:58.920 --> 0:49:02.360 Earth and you say how many nations are actually space 0:49:02.400 --> 0:49:07.120 faring nations? Right, not as many as you think there there. Um, 0:49:07.160 --> 0:49:10.200 there are some big strides being made that will change 0:49:10.239 --> 0:49:14.200 the game, but right now the a lot of other 0:49:14.280 --> 0:49:17.040 nations are still catching up to what the US and 0:49:17.200 --> 0:49:19.759 Russia did in the eighties. Yeah, so you've got things 0:49:19.760 --> 0:49:23.799 like you've got coalitions like the European Space Agency, and 0:49:23.840 --> 0:49:28.080 you've got countries like India or China or Japan that 0:49:28.280 --> 0:49:31.720 all have to some extent worked on this sort of stuff, 0:49:31.760 --> 0:49:34.759 some of them using the resources of other nations in 0:49:34.880 --> 0:49:37.960 order to actually launch things. But it is one of 0:49:37.960 --> 0:49:41.319 those deals where you know you have the the potential 0:49:41.600 --> 0:49:45.800 to affect a huge number of people, some of whom 0:49:45.960 --> 0:49:48.840 are living in nations that have absolutely no capability of 0:49:48.880 --> 0:49:52.319 going into space at the moment. So it ends up 0:49:52.400 --> 0:49:55.080 raising some concerns, and in fact, the space race itself 0:49:56.160 --> 0:49:58.640 raised a lot of concerns. You get to a point 0:49:58.640 --> 0:50:03.080 where h the then Soviet Union can launch a satellite 0:50:03.080 --> 0:50:06.799 into space. In this case, Sputnik Spotney could not do much. 0:50:06.840 --> 0:50:10.800 It essentially beat Essentially, all it really did was send 0:50:10.840 --> 0:50:14.320 a message that said I'm still here until until it 0:50:14.400 --> 0:50:19.120 stopped UM. But that was enough to terrify people in 0:50:19.160 --> 0:50:23.040 the United States because the other implication was that if 0:50:23.080 --> 0:50:25.759 the Soviet Union could send a rocket all the way 0:50:25.760 --> 0:50:28.160 out into space, it could also send a rocket all 0:50:28.160 --> 0:50:32.600 the way over to the United States. So it raised 0:50:32.640 --> 0:50:37.520 a lot of of concerns, not just about intercontinental ballistic missiles, 0:50:37.560 --> 0:50:41.759 but also are we one day going to have war 0:50:41.880 --> 0:50:46.160 breakout where the weapons are in space? Because that is terrifying, 0:50:46.719 --> 0:50:50.200 just a nuclear weapon dropping from near Earth orbit. Yeah. 0:50:50.640 --> 0:50:54.600 So in nineteen sixty seven, several countries came together and 0:50:54.640 --> 0:50:57.360 there was an open signing in nineteen sixty seven that 0:50:58.280 --> 0:51:01.520 took place in UM the so Union and the United 0:51:01.560 --> 0:51:04.440 Kingdom and the United States for a treaty that is 0:51:04.480 --> 0:51:08.560 called here's the full name, the Treaty on Principles Governing 0:51:08.600 --> 0:51:11.960 the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of 0:51:12.000 --> 0:51:18.040 Outer Space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies. I 0:51:18.040 --> 0:51:19.759 guess they didn't have a lot of time to work 0:51:19.760 --> 0:51:22.560 on the title, were working on the actual agreement. It 0:51:22.600 --> 0:51:26.320 wasn't so zippy with the title. It is informally referred 0:51:26.320 --> 0:51:28.879 to as the Outer Space Treaty, which, oh, that makes 0:51:28.880 --> 0:51:32.200 a lot more sangiesier. So set up a lot of 0:51:32.239 --> 0:51:36.960 ground rules about about space because obviously at that point 0:51:37.000 --> 0:51:40.759 only really two nations were in the space game, but 0:51:40.840 --> 0:51:45.400 they were two nations that were philosophically opposed to one another. 0:51:45.440 --> 0:51:48.600 They were in the middle of a Cold war. Uh, 0:51:48.640 --> 0:51:51.719 And so you have all these other countries saying, you 0:51:51.760 --> 0:51:54.320 guys are getting like, first of all, you're really angry 0:51:54.360 --> 0:51:57.879 at each other. Secondly, you've both amassed a huge number 0:51:57.920 --> 0:52:00.759 of weapons. Third you've demonstrated that you are very much 0:52:00.800 --> 0:52:03.799 interested in going in the outer space, and we would 0:52:03.840 --> 0:52:06.799 like to have to have us all kind of calm down, 0:52:07.320 --> 0:52:11.600 set some ground rules and just chill out a little bit. 0:52:11.640 --> 0:52:14.880 But these are these are actually some fantastic rules, to 0:52:14.920 --> 0:52:17.680 the point where I wish more nations were on board 0:52:17.719 --> 0:52:20.880 with this plan. But what are all right? So, first, 0:52:20.960 --> 0:52:24.440 space exploration as discoveries belong to all humans, not just 0:52:24.520 --> 0:52:28.279 one nation, so you can't hoard all the info. So yeah, 0:52:28.320 --> 0:52:31.400 it's it's saying, look, there's the potential for what we 0:52:31.480 --> 0:52:34.600 learn out in space to benefit all of humanity. We 0:52:34.719 --> 0:52:38.839 cannot silo that information so that one nation benefits at 0:52:38.840 --> 0:52:42.160 the expense of everybody else. So there was an agreement 0:52:42.200 --> 0:52:45.040 that anything we learned that can become a benefit needs 0:52:45.080 --> 0:52:49.239 to be shared with everyone. Anyone who with a technological 0:52:49.280 --> 0:52:52.640 capacity can explore space, so it can't be off limits 0:52:52.640 --> 0:52:55.680 to anyone. So in other words, if the United States 0:52:55.680 --> 0:52:59.359 has to developed this space faring technology and then some 0:52:59.440 --> 0:53:02.799 other country that the US is maybe not so friendly with, does, 0:53:02.960 --> 0:53:05.840 the US can't move to block them, right like Iran. 0:53:06.040 --> 0:53:09.600 You will hear stuff about the Iranian Space Agency, and 0:53:10.160 --> 0:53:12.839 you know, for some people it might seem strange that, uh, 0:53:13.320 --> 0:53:16.240 it might seem strange that there's such controversy over nuclear 0:53:16.280 --> 0:53:21.799 weapons but relatively little controversy over um any space exploration. 0:53:22.200 --> 0:53:26.640 Because this, yeah, exactly saying that, you know, philosophical disagreements 0:53:26.719 --> 0:53:32.880 or ideological disagreements or or political arguments aside. All nations, 0:53:32.920 --> 0:53:36.480 all states have a right to space exploration if they 0:53:36.520 --> 0:53:40.600 have the technological capacity to do so. Uh, you can't 0:53:40.640 --> 0:53:44.359 claim space property. Yeah, you can't. Can't go out there 0:53:44.360 --> 0:53:46.600 and say this part of space belongs to the US 0:53:46.760 --> 0:53:50.719 or to the Russia or to whatever. Uh, So you 0:53:50.760 --> 0:53:52.759 can't land on the Moon plan a flag and say 0:53:52.760 --> 0:53:55.480 that it belongs to you. Now, So, Eddie, Iszard's whole 0:53:55.560 --> 0:53:58.440 routine about how you can conquer just as long as 0:53:58.440 --> 0:54:01.120 you have a flag does not apply to outer space. 0:54:01.360 --> 0:54:03.680 He's going to be so upset nobody telling you guys, 0:54:03.880 --> 0:54:06.400 right well, this also means that the US can't lay 0:54:06.440 --> 0:54:09.040 claim to the Moon because we have an American flag 0:54:09.719 --> 0:54:13.040 up there. Um, obviously the American flag is really in 0:54:13.080 --> 0:54:17.720 this sound studio someplace, the whole hoax deal. And because 0:54:17.760 --> 0:54:20.640 somebody already sold off most of the property on the Moon. 0:54:20.719 --> 0:54:24.359 I have a couple of acres myself. Yeah, you love those. 0:54:24.600 --> 0:54:26.400 I mean, I'm sure those businesses are all on the 0:54:26.400 --> 0:54:29.680 open up right. Yeah. Whenever you hear something like a 0:54:29.280 --> 0:54:34.399 a company offering up space real estate, this treaty says 0:54:34.480 --> 0:54:37.160 that's not legal, at least not for states to do. So. 0:54:37.239 --> 0:54:39.719 Governments can't do it. If you say, well, I'm a 0:54:39.719 --> 0:54:42.120 private individual, therefore I can claim it. I'm sure you're 0:54:42.120 --> 0:54:44.480 going to have that. That's gonna be very difficult to 0:54:44.480 --> 0:54:46.960 defend that. Not that not that there's any reason to 0:54:47.000 --> 0:54:51.880 defend it. Right now, it's totally not practical, but anyway. Um. Also, 0:54:52.080 --> 0:54:55.040 no one is allowed to create weapons of mass destruction 0:54:55.040 --> 0:54:57.280 and place them in space. This is a big one. 0:54:59.080 --> 0:55:03.040 And yeah, now it's talking about weapons of mass destruction, 0:55:03.520 --> 0:55:07.480 so it's a very specific definition of the type of weaponry. Right. 0:55:07.600 --> 0:55:12.120 We're talking about a weapon capable of killing or otherwise 0:55:12.239 --> 0:55:15.759 injuring a huge number of folks at one go. Right, Yeah, 0:55:15.760 --> 0:55:20.200 a catastrophic effect every time the weapons used. So any 0:55:20.200 --> 0:55:22.799 weapon that does not fall under that category is not 0:55:24.400 --> 0:55:29.239 you know, it's not prohibited under these terms, and that 0:55:29.280 --> 0:55:34.680 has led to discussions of other treaties that would end 0:55:34.719 --> 0:55:36.480 up filling in some of those gaps. We will get 0:55:36.480 --> 0:55:39.839 to that in a second. Other rules include the fact 0:55:39.880 --> 0:55:43.200 that celestial bodies can only be used for peaceful purposes. 0:55:43.520 --> 0:55:46.000 That one's so interesting to me because you know what 0:55:46.000 --> 0:55:50.959 what that also encompasses, right. That means not weaponizing an asteroid, 0:55:51.480 --> 0:55:54.719 for instance, or altering the path of something else in 0:55:54.800 --> 0:55:58.120 space so that it collides with the planet. You can't 0:55:58.200 --> 0:56:01.000 use an asteroid as a projectile weapon and aim it 0:56:01.239 --> 0:56:06.240 on at like you know, Russia, um, which you wouldn't 0:56:06.239 --> 0:56:09.359 want to do anyway. I mean, like you don't want 0:56:09.360 --> 0:56:14.000 to cause a planet wide extinction level event, which is 0:56:14.560 --> 0:56:17.560 you know, like I mean, this is the kind of 0:56:17.560 --> 0:56:21.920 stuff that that has killed off entire you know, populations, 0:56:22.160 --> 0:56:28.080 entire you know, species, collections of species, your past. So yeah, 0:56:28.200 --> 0:56:31.839 you cannot use celestial bodies for any you know, uh, 0:56:32.200 --> 0:56:36.680 for any non peaceful purpose. Governments are responsible for space activities, 0:56:36.719 --> 0:56:39.920 even if the activities themselves are carried out by private organizations, 0:56:39.960 --> 0:56:44.759 which is very forward thinking since only state run operations 0:56:44.760 --> 0:56:48.880 had existed at that point. So in other words, if 0:56:48.920 --> 0:56:53.720 space X does something really dumb mountain space, the United 0:56:53.760 --> 0:56:57.200 States government would be held accountable for that, because that's uh, 0:56:57.239 --> 0:57:00.239 the presumably if they launched from the United States. I mean, 0:57:00.239 --> 0:57:04.200 it is a US centered organization, So even though it's 0:57:04.200 --> 0:57:07.080 not run by the government, the US would still be 0:57:07.080 --> 0:57:10.839 held responsible because they would essentially be allowing for it 0:57:10.880 --> 0:57:15.480 to happen. Be aware of space billionaires, because there you 0:57:15.480 --> 0:57:18.240 could get a lot of trouble with your home country. Yeah, yeah, 0:57:18.320 --> 0:57:20.120 your home country would get into a lot of trouble 0:57:20.200 --> 0:57:25.960 and stuff trickles down, right, So we should say host country. 0:57:26.000 --> 0:57:28.440 That's what I mean, that's true, that's true. That's probably 0:57:28.440 --> 0:57:31.200 the best way of putting it. Uh So if your stuff, 0:57:31.360 --> 0:57:34.720 meaning a state's property, falls out of the sky and 0:57:34.840 --> 0:57:37.240 damages someone, you are at faults. So, in other words, 0:57:37.680 --> 0:57:40.720 if the US puts up a satellite and the satellites 0:57:40.840 --> 0:57:45.600 orbit decays, and the decaying orbit means the satellite starts 0:57:45.640 --> 0:57:49.960 to fall into the Earth and does not burn up entirely, 0:57:50.200 --> 0:57:53.840 and it ends up colliding with like a public library 0:57:53.920 --> 0:57:58.320 over in Eastern Europe leaking dangerous chemicals, that US the 0:57:58.440 --> 0:58:00.600 US is at fault. There's because they were the ones 0:58:00.600 --> 0:58:01.919 who put it up there, and they did not find 0:58:01.960 --> 0:58:05.880 a way to um to bring it down safely. Usually 0:58:07.560 --> 0:58:10.520 things like that are done in a controlled way, where 0:58:11.480 --> 0:58:15.040 it's purposefully brought down so that anything that would make 0:58:15.080 --> 0:58:18.240 it through the atmosphere. The rare instance that that actually 0:58:18.240 --> 0:58:22.080 does happen with land in an ocean, for example. UM, 0:58:22.280 --> 0:58:24.520 but you know, it's always possible that you could have 0:58:24.560 --> 0:58:28.160 a situation where you know, the the spacecraft is not 0:58:28.240 --> 0:58:31.760 responding to your commands to have it, you know, de 0:58:32.040 --> 0:58:35.440 orbit in a in a controlled way. And that's kind 0:58:35.440 --> 0:58:38.480 of what this is covering. Also, states are not supposed 0:58:38.520 --> 0:58:43.480 to contaminate celestial bodies, no littering I'm talking to But look, 0:58:44.320 --> 0:58:48.960 take on any photographs, leave only footprints, right, and maybe 0:58:48.960 --> 0:58:51.680 a flag and maybe a couple of lunar landers. I mean, 0:58:51.720 --> 0:58:54.320 come on, the moon is pretty big. That's not really littering, right. 0:58:55.040 --> 0:58:58.560 Uh So, over time, obviously this has been kind of updated. 0:58:59.160 --> 0:59:02.480 But there have been other post treaties that would end 0:59:02.560 --> 0:59:06.240 up beefing up these rules and defining them further, but 0:59:06.360 --> 0:59:10.360 they have had limited success in adoption. And there are 0:59:10.360 --> 0:59:12.720 a lot of reasons for that. So a proposed treaty 0:59:12.720 --> 0:59:16.320 in fourteen would have placed more limitations on weapons and space, 0:59:16.360 --> 0:59:19.880 at least in theory. The draft treaty is formally called 0:59:19.880 --> 0:59:23.600 the Treaty on the Prevention of the Placement of Weapons 0:59:23.640 --> 0:59:26.240 in Outer Space and of the Threat or Use of 0:59:26.320 --> 0:59:30.720 Force against Outer Space Objects. So it's supposed to limit 0:59:30.840 --> 0:59:34.320 states abilities to do things like launch missile attacks on 0:59:34.360 --> 0:59:39.120 satellites or or put weaponization into space, even if it's 0:59:39.160 --> 0:59:44.800 not mass destruction. And there were two countries that submitted 0:59:44.800 --> 0:59:48.040 this treaty to the United Nations, and it was Russia 0:59:48.120 --> 0:59:52.760 and China. Now, the United States opposed the treaty and 0:59:52.760 --> 0:59:56.280 said it would not sign such a treaty. And you 0:59:56.360 --> 0:59:59.360 might think well, why would the US say, no, I'm 0:59:59.360 --> 1:00:01.200 not going to sign an treaty that doesn't allow us 1:00:01.200 --> 1:00:03.400 to weaponize space. Does that mean the US is very 1:00:03.480 --> 1:00:07.400 much interested in sending up tons of weapons into space. Yeah, 1:00:07.520 --> 1:00:09.400 that that part is hard to answer, But I can 1:00:09.600 --> 1:00:12.960 tell you what the official answers have been, which is 1:00:13.000 --> 1:00:18.840 that China and this is there. I am paraphrasing, but 1:00:18.920 --> 1:00:23.200 this is their perspective, not necessarily my own. China and 1:00:23.240 --> 1:00:27.360 Russia don't play fair. That's that's what they're That's what 1:00:27.600 --> 1:00:31.240 essentially the message has been, is that that this treaty 1:00:31.400 --> 1:00:34.680 is something that if the United States signed it, because 1:00:34.720 --> 1:00:37.240 the US are the good guys. Remember this is a narrative. 1:00:37.280 --> 1:00:40.600 They're saying that the US are the good guys. The 1:00:40.720 --> 1:00:44.400 US would abide by this treaty, but Russia and China 1:00:44.520 --> 1:00:48.960 their tricks, ee, my precious, and they would totally ignore 1:00:49.040 --> 1:00:51.400 the treaty and say, look at the dumb Americans. They're 1:00:51.480 --> 1:00:54.360 totally abiding by these rules we've set, whereas we're actually 1:00:54.400 --> 1:00:56.400 going to send up as many weapons into space as 1:00:56.440 --> 1:00:59.920 we can, and we're going to end up getting dominance. 1:01:00.040 --> 1:01:02.120 It will be an arms race in space that we 1:01:02.160 --> 1:01:04.720 will have a leg up on because we're not paying 1:01:04.760 --> 1:01:09.320 attention to the treaty. It's difficult because there it goes 1:01:09.360 --> 1:01:12.960 back to this idea of verification, right, and that is 1:01:13.000 --> 1:01:18.360 such a tricky, nearly impossible thing when you're talking about 1:01:18.480 --> 1:01:20.760 state secrets like this. How do you how do you 1:01:20.880 --> 1:01:24.800 verify that no one is up to anything shady? Right? Yeah? 1:01:24.800 --> 1:01:26.840 That was in fact that that was actually the way 1:01:26.840 --> 1:01:32.360 the us UH representatives worded it. They said, well, and 1:01:32.520 --> 1:01:35.600 other people have essentially said more or less what I said, 1:01:35.640 --> 1:01:39.160 just a nicer language, but the the specific line was 1:01:39.240 --> 1:01:43.160 that this treaty as it stands is impossible to verify, 1:01:43.320 --> 1:01:48.560 meaning that you cannot there's no there's no regulatory agency 1:01:49.280 --> 1:01:52.920 that could monitor states and make certain that no one 1:01:53.040 --> 1:01:55.360 was actually doing what the treaty said. So, in other words, 1:01:55.400 --> 1:01:57.680 they said that you can't enforce the treaty because you 1:01:57.720 --> 1:02:01.080 cannot be certain that people are abide by it, and 1:02:01.120 --> 1:02:03.360 so it ends up being a meaningless treaty. In the 1:02:03.400 --> 1:02:06.440 first place. It doesn't work because there's no means to 1:02:07.120 --> 1:02:10.040 monitor and therefore enforce it. So if there's no way 1:02:10.080 --> 1:02:11.840 to do that, then the treaty might as well not 1:02:11.920 --> 1:02:15.400 even exist, because what you are doing is creating a 1:02:15.440 --> 1:02:18.560 pressure on countries that want to follow it in good faith, 1:02:18.640 --> 1:02:23.040 while other countries may not share that and they'll just 1:02:23.280 --> 1:02:26.240 they'll violate it anyway, and there's no way to tell 1:02:26.280 --> 1:02:28.320 that they're violating it, because again there's no way to 1:02:28.360 --> 1:02:32.160 monitor it and verify it. So, um, I I totally 1:02:32.160 --> 1:02:35.240 get their point, Like, I don't disagree with that, And 1:02:35.880 --> 1:02:39.120 some might say, well, there's also ulterior motives that could 1:02:39.160 --> 1:02:41.840 be in play. Let's say that the United States wants 1:02:41.880 --> 1:02:44.680 to be able to have the option to send weapons, 1:02:44.720 --> 1:02:47.400 even if they're not weapons of mass destruction up into space. 1:02:48.000 --> 1:02:50.320 Send signing such a treaty would say that they would 1:02:50.320 --> 1:02:52.880 not do that, and maybe they want the option to 1:02:53.080 --> 1:02:56.800 remain open. It may be that they're even specific plans 1:02:56.840 --> 1:03:00.320 in place that we're not privy to and obviously would 1:03:00.320 --> 1:03:03.160 not be privy to. I'd like to think that that's 1:03:03.160 --> 1:03:05.480 not the case. But at the same time, I'd also 1:03:05.560 --> 1:03:08.120 like to think the government's not looking at all my emails, 1:03:08.120 --> 1:03:11.240 and that unfortunately has proven to be false. So yeah, 1:03:11.240 --> 1:03:13.960 it's always weird when an intern at the n s 1:03:14.040 --> 1:03:17.880 a response to when your emails, Yeah, yeah, like you 1:03:18.120 --> 1:03:21.120 send any Like I'm emailing you and the n s 1:03:21.160 --> 1:03:24.040 A interns, like, oh, Ben's that lunch right now, He's 1:03:24.080 --> 1:03:27.080 not going to respond until like four, Gary, I appreciate it, 1:03:27.400 --> 1:03:30.160 but school that stops kind of creepy, like say hi 1:03:30.240 --> 1:03:33.080 to your dad for me. Uh yeah, that that would 1:03:33.080 --> 1:03:37.360 be weird, but also just just annoying here. Also, we 1:03:37.480 --> 1:03:42.640 know that the ability to interfere with another state satellites, 1:03:43.200 --> 1:03:47.240 it could be so crucial and so pivotal that it's 1:03:47.280 --> 1:03:49.600 going to happen. Somebody's going to try to do that. 1:03:50.760 --> 1:03:52.920 As as you've said before, you said in our notes here, 1:03:54.520 --> 1:03:58.680 this space war stuff is not some distant sci fi thing. 1:03:58.960 --> 1:04:01.280 It's real, and it's kind of we're kind of in 1:04:01.280 --> 1:04:03.480 the middle of the story. Yeah, the idea that you know, 1:04:03.600 --> 1:04:07.160 China bringing down a satellite by firing a missile at 1:04:07.160 --> 1:04:11.000 it purely because that was the most effective means of 1:04:11.000 --> 1:04:15.160 taking down the satellite does not ring true, right. It 1:04:15.240 --> 1:04:18.280 definitely seems more like a demonstration of here's what we 1:04:18.320 --> 1:04:21.760 are capable of doing. So if we ever enter an 1:04:21.800 --> 1:04:25.680 actual like conflict, whether it's an official war or not, 1:04:26.440 --> 1:04:29.640 we have the capability of bringing down your satellites. And 1:04:30.000 --> 1:04:33.280 so yeah, I mean we're talking about satellites that could 1:04:33.320 --> 1:04:38.360 provide communication, GPS data, all this kind of stuff. I mean, obviously, 1:04:38.400 --> 1:04:40.720 the further out the satellite is, the harder it is 1:04:40.760 --> 1:04:42.680 for you to create a system that's going to be 1:04:42.760 --> 1:04:44.720 capable of bringing it down. You're gonna be able to 1:04:44.800 --> 1:04:46.600 hit the ones that are more in lower thorbit than 1:04:46.640 --> 1:04:49.000 the ones that are further out. I mean, you're talking 1:04:49.040 --> 1:04:52.560 about a target that's further out is and it's moving 1:04:52.560 --> 1:04:55.960 at an incredible speed like that. I'm not saying it's impossible. 1:04:56.040 --> 1:04:59.480 It certainly isn't. It's just a lot harder, But at 1:04:59.480 --> 1:05:04.920 any rate, the capability has been demonstrated. And uh, that 1:05:05.120 --> 1:05:08.840 is a very vulnerable and valid target if you are 1:05:09.000 --> 1:05:12.880 if you're very serious about warfare, right, yeah, absolutely, And 1:05:12.960 --> 1:05:18.240 this this brings us all back around to the subject 1:05:18.320 --> 1:05:21.120 we looked at today, which is the X thirty seven. 1:05:21.160 --> 1:05:23.120 And I gotta tell you, man, I've been holding onto 1:05:23.120 --> 1:05:25.400 this reference to the whole show, so okay, I've just 1:05:25.440 --> 1:05:29.600 gotta let it go. There's something about an unmanned vehicle 1:05:29.920 --> 1:05:32.400 in the darkness of space, just sort of orbiting in 1:05:32.400 --> 1:05:35.000 the silence that is so very event horizon to me. 1:05:35.600 --> 1:05:37.560 What's gonna come back the next time at Lands John 1:05:38.880 --> 1:05:41.320 a little hitchhiker. Yeah, I found your thing. Man, I 1:05:41.320 --> 1:05:43.000 don't know what happened to the drive out. He was 1:05:43.040 --> 1:05:47.080 gone when I got on. I promise you thanks. I've 1:05:47.080 --> 1:05:49.720 been working on that character for a while. Um. Yeah. 1:05:49.840 --> 1:05:52.600 And it's interesting because you know, this is not necessarily 1:05:53.400 --> 1:05:57.120 the end of the the space plane discussion. There's been 1:05:57.280 --> 1:06:00.160 some other talks about what the space plane my do, 1:06:00.360 --> 1:06:04.480 even in in light of the counter argument saying that 1:06:04.560 --> 1:06:08.560 perhaps it's not the most um efficient or useful means 1:06:08.560 --> 1:06:11.040 of getting things into space. The Air Force itself had 1:06:11.080 --> 1:06:13.760 announced back in twenty eleven that it would develop a 1:06:13.760 --> 1:06:17.040 new spacecraft based on the same design that would be 1:06:17.120 --> 1:06:20.800 even larger than the X three seven be Remember the 1:06:20.800 --> 1:06:25.240 thirty seven is larger than the X forty. This one 1:06:25.320 --> 1:06:28.560 would be bigger than the X thirty seven, and the 1:06:28.680 --> 1:06:33.160 numbers ranged between like a hundred sixty and so bigger 1:06:33.360 --> 1:06:35.920 by almost a factor of two when you get to 1:06:35.920 --> 1:06:39.480 the higher ends. And uh, this one would potentially have 1:06:39.560 --> 1:06:44.520 a pressurized compartment, which means that could carry stuff what lives. Yeah, 1:06:44.600 --> 1:06:48.680 and and the it has been suggested, could carry a 1:06:49.120 --> 1:06:53.240 group of astronauts up to six into space. They don't 1:06:53.240 --> 1:06:55.800 have to pilot the thing because it could still have 1:06:55.840 --> 1:06:59.280 autonomous control, although they said it would also have manual control, 1:07:00.080 --> 1:07:04.320 so uh, astronauts could presumably I assume astronauts. Maybe they 1:07:04.400 --> 1:07:07.800 mean manual control from the ground, which is also a possibility, 1:07:07.840 --> 1:07:10.880 but that, um, the astronauts would not necessarily have to 1:07:10.920 --> 1:07:17.040 pilot this thing. It would be the X thirty seven C. Yeah, 1:07:17.040 --> 1:07:21.400 no idea if that project is still happening or not, 1:07:21.520 --> 1:07:25.040 like it was announced inn But again, when you're talking 1:07:25.040 --> 1:07:28.240 about secret space planes, right, you don't get a lot 1:07:28.240 --> 1:07:31.920 of updates until they launch one and then it lands 1:07:31.960 --> 1:07:33.760 and then people are like, oh, so I guess that's 1:07:33.800 --> 1:07:37.320 still a thing. So we don't know. I mean we 1:07:37.560 --> 1:07:41.360 I don't know. People know. It's not me, Yeah, I'm 1:07:41.360 --> 1:07:44.600 not I'm not privy to such information. But it could 1:07:44.600 --> 1:07:46.920 be that we see a development and who knows, maybe 1:07:46.960 --> 1:07:51.920 there will be demonstrable uses for space plane technology that 1:07:53.200 --> 1:07:57.320 uh end up being uh, you know, the best option, 1:07:57.600 --> 1:08:00.520 and that the objection saying that, hey, you have other 1:08:00.560 --> 1:08:03.120 means of getting stuff into space that end up being 1:08:03.320 --> 1:08:06.600 less complicated than this methodology. Maybe that will end up 1:08:06.600 --> 1:08:09.360 being mood. It's kind of hard to say right now, 1:08:09.360 --> 1:08:13.360 because obviously if you were to an astronauts up you're 1:08:13.360 --> 1:08:18.880 probably not doing one of those crazy the body. It 1:08:18.880 --> 1:08:21.800 would be very very tough on the on the human body. 1:08:21.840 --> 1:08:29.640 And I can't imagine you could carry enough oxygen, water, food, like, yeah, 1:08:29.680 --> 1:08:31.960 all the stuff, all the stuff that's necessary to keep 1:08:32.000 --> 1:08:35.599 people alive. I don't think you could carry all of 1:08:35.640 --> 1:08:39.120 that aboard a space plane that's designed to be up 1:08:39.120 --> 1:08:41.200 there for six hundred days. That's just not going to happen. 1:08:41.960 --> 1:08:44.400 So even if you were to say, well, we want 1:08:44.439 --> 1:08:46.840 to find out what happens to best not when they're 1:08:46.840 --> 1:08:50.760 in a spacecraft for two years, and uh, whether or 1:08:50.760 --> 1:08:53.160 not they come back as the Fantastic Four. I mean, 1:08:53.720 --> 1:08:57.200 you know, it's worth a shot. But but but one 1:08:57.200 --> 1:08:59.760 thing we have learned about space radiation is it does 1:08:59.800 --> 1:09:02.360 not work the way that Marvel Comics may have feeled 1:09:02.400 --> 1:09:05.000 you as a child. No, it can. It can really 1:09:05.040 --> 1:09:07.880 mess you up big time. And uh, you know, you're 1:09:07.880 --> 1:09:10.280 talking about particles that move with a ton of energy 1:09:10.320 --> 1:09:15.559 that have the capacity to do really like cellular level 1:09:15.640 --> 1:09:19.640 damage that can end up causing huge issues. Yeah, like 1:09:19.680 --> 1:09:23.360 irreparable damage. But let's let's go big, because despite these 1:09:23.400 --> 1:09:26.000 problems right despite the secrecy, and I know it's a 1:09:26.160 --> 1:09:30.280 wellyon and spooky and stuff. I'm so excited because this 1:09:30.400 --> 1:09:34.800 gets us one one tiny step closer to one of 1:09:34.840 --> 1:09:37.439 the one of the big dreams I've had, uh since 1:09:37.439 --> 1:09:40.160 we started working together, which is the podcast on the Moon. 1:09:40.640 --> 1:09:43.360 I mean, if they can just get us to the moon, Jonathan, 1:09:43.520 --> 1:09:45.360 we could do the rest might be uh might be 1:09:45.400 --> 1:09:48.080 a little quiet up there. I don't know how we're 1:09:48.120 --> 1:09:50.240 going to talk into the microphones. The way of the 1:09:50.320 --> 1:09:53.600 set up. We'll just go it's a sound studio. Come on, 1:09:53.760 --> 1:09:55.600 We'll just so just move the whole studio to the 1:09:56.360 --> 1:09:58.000 that makes more sense. I was just thinking of the 1:09:58.000 --> 1:10:01.160 table on the mics, also about how long the cords 1:10:01.200 --> 1:10:04.000 would have to be, and that anything we asked nol 1:10:04.160 --> 1:10:08.200 we'd have to wait. Yeah, there'll be there'll be a Yeah, 1:10:08.200 --> 1:10:12.800 there'd be a noticeable delay. Um. But I'm still in 1:10:12.840 --> 1:10:14.840 favor of it personally because I think I think that 1:10:14.920 --> 1:10:17.680 could really position us in a way that other podcasts 1:10:17.680 --> 1:10:21.080 just haven't thought right to take advantage of that. I mean, 1:10:21.200 --> 1:10:23.439 it's kind of amazing to me that hasn't avenue. Honestly, 1:10:24.520 --> 1:10:28.880 don't ideas all right. So anyway, this has been a 1:10:28.880 --> 1:10:31.120 lot of fun to talk about the you know, even 1:10:31.120 --> 1:10:34.640 though obviously what we don't know as members of the 1:10:34.640 --> 1:10:38.640 general public far outweighs what we do know. But it's 1:10:38.640 --> 1:10:41.920 also fun just to kind of explore the psychology of 1:10:42.200 --> 1:10:45.360 not just like conspiracy theories in the sense of well, 1:10:45.479 --> 1:10:47.360 and since we don't have information, we have to fill 1:10:47.439 --> 1:10:52.000 that vacuum, but also just the idea of what what 1:10:52.080 --> 1:10:55.400 could be the motives for pursuing this. I mean, obviously 1:10:55.479 --> 1:10:57.639 we're talking about something that costs a huge amount of money. 1:10:58.240 --> 1:11:01.640 Maybe ultimately it's just a test of autonomous technology and 1:11:01.720 --> 1:11:06.040 a new uh a new form like a new new 1:11:06.280 --> 1:11:10.559 a new environment, and that that ultimately could become really important, 1:11:10.560 --> 1:11:13.920 but in a totally different implementation. I hope you enjoyed 1:11:13.960 --> 1:11:16.920 that classic episode of tech Stuff from twenty fifteen. I'll 1:11:16.920 --> 1:11:19.240 have to do an update on this one, obviously, but 1:11:19.439 --> 1:11:22.599 if you have suggestions for other topics that I should tackle, 1:11:22.960 --> 1:11:27.519 whether it's a company, technology, a trend in tech, anything 1:11:27.560 --> 1:11:30.080 like that, reach out to me on Twitter to handle 1:11:30.080 --> 1:11:32.640 for the show is tech Stuff h s W I 1:11:32.800 --> 1:11:41.800 talk to you again really soon. Y. Text Stuff is 1:11:41.800 --> 1:11:45.000 an I Heart radio production For more podcasts from I 1:11:45.080 --> 1:11:48.680 heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, 1:11:48.800 --> 1:11:50.799 or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.