WEBVTT - "Murder Rap" The Greg Kading Episode 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.360 You're tuned into the Gangster Chronicles. Well, James McDonald, Rixie 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.680 Reich Jr. And Alex to Monso on the Digital Soapbox 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:12.360 Network material witness on an aggregated battery, I was a 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:15.960 hang gun and they believe this might be in retaliation 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:23.079 to her testimony. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:26.720 wherever you may be listening from. This is another episode 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:29.360 of the Gangster Chronicles and you're listening to Alex Alonso 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:32.400 and I'm here with my co host James McDonald and James, 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:34.199 let's just get right into it, man, We've got it. 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:37.320 We got a guest here that probably one of the 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:41.760 premier experts on the murders of Tupac and Biggie Smalls. 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:46.600 He is also uh he led an investigation task force 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:50.320 investigation into these into these homicides back and I think 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:54.160 two thousand six. Uh. He's a detective retired from the 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:56.720 l a p D. And he wrote a book entitled 0:00:57.040 --> 0:00:59.800 The Murder Rapped, The Untold Story of Biggie Smalls and 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:02.800 two pox of core murder Investigations. And I believe this 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:07.720 book also inspired the TV show called Unsolved. And we 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:11.040 have none other than Greg Hating retired l ap D. 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:13.360 Thanks for coming down, man, Hey, thanks for having me. 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:17.160 Man took a while. James, Hey, hey, you're a busy man. 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:23.399 Well you gether. That hard for him to know. He 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:26.160 doing a lot of work and he's always on the airplane, 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:29.400 much more than I would love to be. But yeah, 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:32.640 Greg took me to Australia. Just the first guy that 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:36.160 ever took me out to stay out anywhere as far 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:39.120 as that matter. Very good friend of mine. Man, I 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:42.679 really appreciated me. Helped me out a lot with a 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:46.400 lot of stuff. Um, I don't think it can get 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:51.640 no better. Fathers, meeting somebody and then just just having 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:55.240 a friendship. You know what I'm saying that you know 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:59.320 in Australia, I've seen and I was. I learned a lot, 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:03.200 not only with Greg but with his son, with his 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:07.200 wife Donna. Donald was the family to Australia. Yeah, we 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:09.200 all went out there. They fell in love with James 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:13.960 Man so he's kind of now they're adopted. They're adopted uncle. Okay, Well, 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:16.919 before we talking to the what everybody wants to hear about, 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:20.240 and which I'm sure you spoke about many many times, Uh, 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:23.000 talk about how this Australia tour thing came about. And 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:28.880 this is kind of an unusual talk about that. Greg. Well, 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:31.880 originally I had gone over to England and Ireland do 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:34.640 a little presentation over there, and then some folks in 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:39.120 Australia decided that they thought it might be worthwhile to 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:40.840 go down there. A guy named Nick Noonon was the 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:43.079 promoter of the show who we had on. He was 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:45.440 a guest on The Gangster Chronicles, wasn't he he came, 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:49.400 he said, yeah, he said, okay, so you know Nick, Yeah, 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:51.919 So he put in a lot of hard working effort 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:54.200 to get this thing going down in Australia. And I 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:56.320 had always thought that there has got to be a 0:02:56.360 --> 0:03:00.360 different voice to this story. And you know, I can 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:03.680 talk about it from the law enforcement perspective, but this 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:06.680 story also needs to be told from the from the 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:10.000 street perspective and the environment in which all this stuff 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:13.600 took place. And so that's why, you know, the natural 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:17.440 collaboration with James was just a you know, that was 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.640 an easy transition. I had first met James actually in 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:23.240 two thousand and seven, while I was still investigating the case. 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:26.080 I went out to Las Vegas and we had a 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:28.160 chance to sit down and you know, I was just 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:31.000 comparing some notes and trying to get some information to 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:35.560 further our case. So it hasn't been short while. It's 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:39.280 been thirteen years. And that was the beginning stages of 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:41.920 the task force investigation that you led right when you 0:03:42.120 --> 0:03:44.480 met James. Yeah, we were just a year into it, 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:48.280 because we started in two thousand and six, and then 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:50.920 it was the following year that we got around to 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:54.640 trying to, you know, help reach out and get get 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:58.640 some help from people that we had been struggling with 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:01.640 to get that door open. And you know, I thought, hey, 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:04.680 well I got this guy, James McDonald's what we can tell, 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:06.640 you know, is everything there is to know about death Row, 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:12.320 and um, perhaps he can contribute. And it took more 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:16.320 than a decade before you guys came together. He was 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:20.320 the first I ever did a a a black like 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:23.240 a black interview. I did an interview with he was 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:25.520 the first one. That's the first one I saw. Actually, yeah, 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:28.000 that that's the first one period. That was the best. 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:31.359 Nice I think you put together a thirty minute clip 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:33.800 of James. I'm sure the interview was a little longer, 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:36.440 but that's the one where I was like James put 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:38.480 it down in this interview. It was it was pretty. 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:41.279 It was easier to sit down because I did it 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:44.240 at his home and then, uh, I mean I was 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:47.320 more comfortable than I was just sitting in the little 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:50.599 in the little room, YadA YadA. And then it was 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:54.680 easier because the questions that they had for me written 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:57.000 down all I had to do it. I don't want to. 0:04:57.120 --> 0:04:59.120 I don't you know what I'm saying. So I knew 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:01.120 what I was gonna be talking about the questions they 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:03.840 was gonna ask. And I had my nephew there and 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:08.200 he learned something from it. So I didn't know that 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:11.840 it was gonna be what it was after I did 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.840 the interview with him, because after that interview, so many 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:18.320 people started calling and and wanted to do an interview. Well, 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:20.400 that interviews almost had a million views now, right, nine 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:23.599 hundred some thousand plus, Yeah, and he never called me 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:26.680 back to do another one. So that was cool. Now, 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:28.720 Like you know, I got so many people want to 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:32.920 do an interview. I mean from from everywhere. The farthest 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:39.880 is BBC. So I mean that interview just made me. 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:41.720 It made me feel a whole lot better because I 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:44.080 got a lot of ship off my chest, talking to 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:50.960 them and and and helping and a lot of people seeing, uh, 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:53.480 the pain that I was going through and all that. 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:57.440 So it was easy. Were there any questions that Greg 0:05:57.480 --> 0:05:59.679 wanted to ask you that you didn't want to answer 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:02.760 and that you would answer? Oh, no, no, no, no, 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:04.560 what I what I didn't want to answer? Then I 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:08.360 wouldn't answer. Now, no, there's something that would be told, 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:11.560 not sold and not told and not gold and not that. No, 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:14.880 y'all can cut that part up. And did you understand 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:16.720 his issues with probably some of the questions that he 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:19.920 didn't want to address with you on camera. Oh yeah, well, 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:22.440 back the well, back in two thousand and seven, it was, 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:25.840 you know, basically the same thing that we've been encountering 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:29.080 throughout the case. It was just, you know, there's there's 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:32.200 things to be taken into consideration when you're talking to 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:35.599 the police. And so for James, obviously that was something 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:41.479 that he had to um uh years later. Let's just 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:44.279 say this, when when we ultimately sit down and have 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:48.440 an on camera interview, a lot have evolved, a lot 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:52.000 had changed then it was back in two thousand and seven, 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:56.440 and so for us, you know, it's like finally kind 0:06:56.440 --> 0:07:00.120 of the armors being cracked a little bit you and 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:05.520 then once you can build u the foundation of trust 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:09.640 and respect which we didn't previously have. I was just 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:11.920 the cop and he was just the guy from death Row, 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:15.400 and you know, we weren't in a position at that 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:19.800 time to get real. And so as time went by 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:21.920 and we ultimately got to know each other, and I 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:24.280 think he felt that I was somebody that can sit 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:27.040 down and talk to then the doors opened. Was that 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:33.760 your first interview ever? Ever? Ever? And that interview changed me? Period. 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:37.920 It changed a lot of things about me. Uh, it 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:41.800 helped me unleash a lot of in your head, especially 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:46.920 with my brother. Uh, I was dealing with a sure 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:49.679 knight was. I hated him so much at that time, 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:52.840 you know what I'm saying, And it just it just 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:55.840 helped me. You know, I said a lot of things 0:07:56.680 --> 0:07:58.720 that I didn't want to say to other people, and 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:03.280 I wasn't gonna never say. But when my mom's teld 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:05.240 me it was time to maybe you need to talk 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:07.720 and get it out off your chest. And I did 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:10.200 that and it worked and should look at me now, 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:14.040 I mean I'm sitting there really talking and expressing my 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:17.720 feelings and everything out to not just only my family, 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:20.000 but people all over the world. I don't know if 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:22.640 Greg knows us, but that interview you did with James 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:26.040 catapulted him to be right here, right now doing this podcast, 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:29.120 because that's really what got the ball rolling, because that 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:31.960 led to other interviews, led to other interviews, which led 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:34.480 to the producer seeing him and him and blad Man. 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:38.160 I shout out to Blad They both they it worked 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:40.200 for me. It worked for me. Now I'm not gonna 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:44.720 actually talking just like man, just tell everybody everything now 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:47.280 before we get into some of these other questions. Um, 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:51.680 was the Australia tour success in terms of financial and 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:53.880 when you guys continue and go to other cities? To me, 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:57.600 it was yeah. To me, it was I mean, you know, 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:00.960 we talked about the only instant and I had which 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:03.560 the people in Australia fixed that I didn't have to 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:08.440 say anything, and the love I was getting from Greg 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:12.320 and his family, and then you know, with with Nick 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:15.600 and everybody out there. Man, I've seen different people talk 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:20.160 to different people different places. How many places we went to? Hey, 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:23.640 we had six cities and and all of them was 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:26.319 brand new to me. So I was loving it. Yeah, 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:28.319 I mean, you know, you gotta brother out here. Just 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:34.560 everything's uh squeaky clean and everybody was nice and I 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:37.520 loved it. So what's what's next? Where to go next? Well, 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:40.920 we gotta call yesterday, um, potentially to go to Scotland, 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:43.520 so that would be cool. I've been over to the 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:46.800 UK before, but I've never been to Scotland, so I'm 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:50.040 looking forward to getting an email later on today and 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:52.640 you know, trying to figure out the logistics of it all. 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.040 But I'd like to take take James out there and 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:58.760 do the same thing. It's interest in the Park and 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:02.559 Biggie Hamasa. It's stronger abroad than it is here in 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:05.200 the US because maybe too many Americans are just tired 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:07.240 of hearing about it over and over where a tour, 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:09.760 a multi city tour in the US might not be 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:14.640 as successful as going to Europe Australia. Yeah, well you 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:17.080 know these guys, both Park and Big or just their 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:21.480 international superstars, you know, and so it's really interesting, you know, 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:27.600 like in Germany, Um, Biggie's more popular. It's it's a 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:29.880 it's a it's a strange thing that there's these just 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:33.559 different little dynamics that take place at different places around 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:36.920 the world. In Japan and all of these, you know, 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:41.560 places that don't even speak a common language, are still 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:45.160 these guys are iconic, and their superstars and so and 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:50.200 then of course the mystery surrounding their deaths is another 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:53.480 whole area of interest to people. So I don't know 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:56.880 if it's more popular over there than it is here. 0:10:57.280 --> 0:11:00.080 I just do know that this story never seems to 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.920 fade out. It doesn't seem to die, and there's always 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:07.080 a insatiable appetite to know more about it and to 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:09.440 learn more about these guys, both as human beings and 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:13.319 as artists, but also about hopefully finding some closure and 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:16.240 what happened in there in the end. I don't think 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:19.959 the story will ever fade because these guys were in 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:22.319 their prime when they were murdered. You could actually say 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:24.480 they were the number two and number number one and 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:27.320 number two rappers on Earth, which is kind of crazy 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:30.480 that you're number one and number two rappers get murdered 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:32.760 within six months of each other. That's a story to 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:35.640 tell for the next hundred years. So I don't think 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:39.520 he'll ever die down. I don't, I don't. I mean, 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:43.079 you got new documentaries being made right now on to 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:45.920 day about two parking Biggie. What more is it to 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:49.440 till about two parking Biggie. They've been going twenty three years, 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:53.160 you know what I'm saying, but it's still coming. And 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:57.800 like in Australia, the people were way different. They aspect 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:01.679 was way different than what we have now. They was 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:05.080 like so stoked about it. They you know, wanted to 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:09.040 hear and wanted to understand the story of why. So 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:12.839 I think that's what was was was good for us 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:16.800 out there in Australia. We brung let's stay closer to 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:20.240 some people or some people had a better understanding after 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:24.280 the show was over or what really happened, because why 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:28.720 Greg was was talking and he said and showed on 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:34.040 on this on this uh just uh yeah, now they 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:38.319 see from his aspect of it, then from me coming 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:41.240 in and then they listened to where I was coming 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:44.480 from and why these guys was getting killed and why 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:48.400 things was happening in his neighborhood. They was pretty much 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:51.240 kind of like blowed away, you know what I'm saying. 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:55.240 And I thought, man, it was it was the people 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:58.360 out there wanted more than what you got out of here. Well, 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:02.199 I want to talk about the the live slow Burn 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:07.880 I guess presentation that it was crazy. But before we 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:09.240 get into that, I just want to let all the 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:11.800 listeners and viewers know that this is episode forty five 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:15.080 of The Gangster Chronicles and for those who are listening 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:18.840 to us on iTunes, please give us a rating and review. 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:22.800 We're also available on Google Play for Samsung and Android users, 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:26.920 Spotify as well, and you could also listen to this show. 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:29.560 My mom is actually using Alexa, so if you have 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:32.760 an Alexa, just just say it. Just say Alexa play 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:35.640 the Gangster Chronicles and it will come up. And you 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:38.640 could also listen and follow the show on the Himalaya app. 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:41.040 Just go to your app store and download the free app. 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:44.160 Himalaya has a red icon with the letters Hi in 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:46.679 it and you can follow us there and you can 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.520 watch video portions of this show. Um the Digital Soapbox 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:54.320 Network which you're produced by Smooth Cut Productions, and on 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:57.880 that platform we also have merchandise for The Gangster Chronicles 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:02.880 T shirts, hoodies and at cetera and um so last 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:08.400 night was extremely interesting conversation between you, Greg Hatting, the 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:13.840 author of Murder Rap, and also with Randall Sullivan, the 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:19.360 author of Labyrinth. Um Russell's book came out first and 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:21.840 then yours came out actually within the last five years, 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:25.200 I think, and James, these two were going at it 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:28.440 last night. It was so it was so damn funny. 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:31.960 But if people this was what people need to see, 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:35.360 just that little bit last night, what you need to see. 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.880 Not not taking up for you, but I got all 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:42.800 these documents right here. Yeah, this is what you have. 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.320 You know what I'm saying. So you can't you you 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:49.600 there was no way for him to investigate all this 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:54.080 ship that that was being you're talking about Sullivan Sullivan, 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:57.360 So how did you come up? And I thought we 0:14:57.360 --> 0:14:59.360 was gonna be able to, you know, do a little 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:01.560 que and they were a mother get up and say 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.000 something because I wanted to say something bad. Where'd you 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:07.560 getting your information from? And that's what people fail to realize. 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:10.160 Like I told the guy I did the show was over, 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:12.400 the one that was up there, I didn't know his 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:15.960 name that did the show, where do y'all get your 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:19.840 information from? Everybody keep talking about how they're doing the information, 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:22.720 how to how to gather information, and they're talking to 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:25.000 these people and talking to these people when the hell 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:28.440 y'all talking to y'all. The only way y'all could talk 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:32.040 and get something is like, how Greg did talk to 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:35.800 the people that were involved. You can't talk to people 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:39.320 that weren't there. How can you come to California and 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:43.640 say you got information on on what happened on the 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:48.600 third of nineteen seven. You you don't have no clue. 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:50.400 You wouldn't there, you was at home. You just flew out. 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:53.520 Well to Randall Sullivan's defense, and I'm not defending him 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:55.720 or the book, he did have an l a p 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:58.920 D detective, just like grag Hating was. That was his 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:02.000 main source. And we're talking about Russell Pool. So he 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:05.320 feels very confident. I got an l APD source, a 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:09.440 detective Russell Pool. Greg Cating's a lap D. He wrote 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:11.760 his book. So it's kind of like a battle of 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:16.760 ideas they should be. But I'm sure right now Greg 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:19.040 is gonna explain to us why they weren't on the 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:21.240 same page. And I just want to shout out Joel Anderson, 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:25.280 who was moderating between you and Randall. Um, So go ahead, 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:28.440 tell tell James and I why you guys, Russell Pool 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:31.800 and Randall Sullivan are not on the same page. And 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:34.680 Russell Pool is no longer alive. For those who don't know, 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:38.840 he died of natural causes several years ago. Right, So 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:42.800 Russell Pool back at the time that Biggie was murdered, 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.760 shortly thereafter him and his partner inherited their responsibility of 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:49.440 investigating the case. And then russ is only on it 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:52.800 for a short period of time relatives less than a year, 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:56.640 less than a year. And you know, he had some 0:16:56.760 --> 0:16:59.040 leads that he needed to fall up, follow up on, 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:02.800 and as a result of some of the information that 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:07.119 he was attaining, he began to draw these conclusions. And 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:10.439 through that process, because of things that were happening in 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:12.720 his own personal life and his professional life, he was 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:15.840 removed from the task force. And so he only had 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:19.000 this nine or ten months to work with and not 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:23.920 to you know, not to h criticize anything that he did. 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:28.800 He was just going through the motions. But I, in contrast, 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.520 I was ten years down the road, and so I 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:35.840 had the advantage that he never had. I had ten 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:41.840 years of investigative effort to evaluate, assess, and then look back. 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:45.119 I could see everything from hindsight. He was limited to 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:50.480 this this perspective that he saw for nine months. I 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:53.920 had ten years, and in that period of time. Over 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:57.480 that ten years, there was multiple ever their investigations going on. 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:00.320 There was a huge racketeering investigation of death oh by 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:02.920 the FBI and the a t F. They were interviewing 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:05.040 all kinds of people, and a lot of the information 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:09.440 that was contained in that investigation affected or had influence 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:13.280 on the murder investigations. And then of course the Rampart 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:16.199 scandal came out, and then all these allegations about cops 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:19.200 being involved in Biggie's murders, and so that whole investigation 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:22.959 I had access to. So I had things that Randall 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:26.280 soul I'm sorry that both Randall Sulivan and Russell Pool 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:30.200 couldn't have dreamed of, you know, having at their disposal 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:32.800 in order to get a better picture of what took place. 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:38.960 They were limited, and from that limited perspective they drew conclusions, 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:44.200 and these conclusions were demonstrably wrong, and they then began 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:51.399 to advocate allegations against people that were factually innocent. And 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:53.280 that's where I take issue. I don't have a problem 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:55.440 with somebody having an opinion about it, going out and 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:59.119 doing your own research, you know, whatever, but before you 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:03.880 start false the accusing innocent people of these heinous crimes, 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:07.360 you got you better have your fucking facts straight. Can 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:10.280 you give us some specific examples of that. Who were 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:12.679 some of the people that he was thrown under the bus, 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:15.880 whether that be Russell Pool or Randall Sullivan, well both 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:19.160 of them collectively. Um, you know Shrita Knite for one, 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:23.679 you know, being accused of being involved in in in 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:28.600 uh In Sugar's attempted murder. Uh, it's just it's it's ludicrous. 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:32.800 Reggie Right, you know, obviously Reggie Right, it's no saint. 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:37.040 He's a person that it should be accountable for things 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:39.320 that he's done in his life. But I've also got 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:41.760 to vindicate Reggie Right, because I know for a fact 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:45.960 he had nothing to do with these crimes. And in fact, 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:49.080 Reggie was very helpful in the process of this investigation. 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:53.480 Reggie had been interviewed a dozen times by different people 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:56.640 from different agencies. And one thing that I can say 0:19:56.640 --> 0:20:00.320 about Reggie is that we never found him to lie. 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:04.520 He wasn't always entirely truthful, he wouldn't tell us everything 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:07.359 he knew, but he never lied. He never sent us 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:09.919 down the wrong path, the wrong direction. I respected that, 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:12.240 I understood that he couldn't tell us some things because 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:14.400 he's got his own life and issues to deal with. 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:18.920 But he never he never lied and uh And then 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:23.520 of course the most um affected by all this was 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:27.720 an individual name Amir Mohammed who was was a close 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:31.800 friend of David Max who was this disgraced l a 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:37.959 p D. Detective Harry billips Man in the cloud of 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:41.120 suspicion that he had to live under as a result 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:43.359 of the claims that were in Labyrinth and as a 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:47.360 result of the claims that Russell Pool and uh Um 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:54.040 Randall Sullivan continued to publish. It was just irresponsible, reckless 0:20:54.240 --> 0:21:00.960 and you know, in my opinion criminal a question, now, 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:05.200 would it be safe to say that all the things 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:08.040 that was going on with the police department are in 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:11.840 the police department? Did that throw the police department off 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:15.560 the investigation off of of trying to catch the Tupac 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:20.439 and Biggie uh killers, because it seemed like more the 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:23.960 police were more at it then they you know, they 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:28.080 wasn't like they were more at it with each other. 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:31.960 Like this guy, he was such a dick last night. 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:36.040 I keep forgetting his name. I don't even want to remember. Yes, 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:39.359 he was such a big I mean he was very irritating. 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:42.679 I don't know if he irritated you, but just not 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:45.199 to let no one talk. But I mean, do you 0:21:45.240 --> 0:21:49.560 think just back to where I was at that what 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:51.480 was going on in the police department, did that have 0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:55.560 anything to do with your investigations? And but yeah, I 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:59.640 mean there were distractions that place. The rampart thing, there 0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:04.080 was a distraction. There's a lot of unnecessary um time 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:08.680 spent um going down dead ends. So do you think 0:22:08.720 --> 0:22:12.400 that's why people was looking at saying that the police 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:17.800 one of the theories that the police killed uh Biggie Tupac. Well, 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:20.159 you have to follow up on those leads, you know, 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:24.000 when information comes in and if it's circumstantial or compelling, 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:26.880 like for instance, just this is what happened with David Mac. 0:22:27.320 --> 0:22:30.880 David Mac commits a bank robbery right shortly thereafter. He's 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:33.360 posing in a picture and he's got this red fedora 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:36.280 hat on, he's got this red suit on and his 0:22:36.359 --> 0:22:39.760 prison letters that he's sending home. He's Westside riders and 0:22:39.840 --> 0:22:42.760 people in prison that he's selled up with. He's he's 0:22:42.800 --> 0:22:45.840 gang straight up and so okay, what's going on with 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:49.320 this guy? And then you have other jailhouse informants coming 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:51.479 forward and going, yeah, David Mac told me that he 0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:54.400 is involved in Biggie's murder. You know Sugar. He attends 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:56.680 parties with Sugar, and so we don't know if that's 0:22:56.680 --> 0:22:58.600 true or not. That we have to go through the 0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:02.879 motions of determining where it is and invalidating that information. 0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:06.720 So you have to go through those motions, and but 0:23:07.000 --> 0:23:09.760