Speaker 1: Hey everybody, I'm Robert Evans. This is not really an
Speaker 1: episode of Behind the Bastards. I just wanted to make
Speaker 1: sure people had access to the full audio of all
Speaker 1: of the interviews I conducted for the World is Burning
Speaker 1: episode that ran earlier this week. So this episode is
Speaker 1: just the unedited audio of all of those interviews. UM.
Speaker 1: There will be a normal episode coming on Thursday as well. UM.
Speaker 1: So to start off, we have the unedited audio of
Speaker 1: my interview with those two Chilean activists. Uh, and I'm
Speaker 1: gonna play that right now. Yeah. So, UM, would you
Speaker 1: guys give or you Stephanie, if you'd like give an
Speaker 1: overview in your own words of Whitey's protests started obviously
Speaker 1: like the kind of foreign headline is uh bus or
Speaker 1: a public transit? You know, fair increase leads to protests.
Speaker 1: My understanding is that's just sort of kind of the
Speaker 1: spark that lit a bunch of tinder on fire. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I'm interested in Yeah, what what you blame it on? Yeah?
Speaker 1: We the last year we are participating in different products
Speaker 1: for these a different think about um problems that we
Speaker 1: have almost the almost started with the Pinal chest, with
Speaker 1: the queue, start about the common with the pension plan
Speaker 1: system and in the education that is really high goals
Speaker 1: and uh, the health care problem and really expensive transportation
Speaker 1: and hum and the commomale commale commer Yeah, the minimum
Speaker 1: wages very low. So yeah, it's like you said, um
Speaker 1: where what initially started this protest was a group a
Speaker 1: bunch of students who were evading UH the metro so
Speaker 1: to protest the rise in the fair which is the
Speaker 1: second or third time they've raised the metro uh in
Speaker 1: the last three years. Um. And so it's the most
Speaker 1: expensive metro in South America. And and even though for
Speaker 1: someone from the United States it might seem it's still
Speaker 1: very cheap or how are they only protesting over ten
Speaker 1: more cents or whatever? But um, in Chile, if you
Speaker 1: make the minimum wage, you could be spending almost of
Speaker 1: your wage on the metro. It is very expensive here.
Speaker 1: And UH. So what happened is a lot of students
Speaker 1: were getting together as like a big group, and so
Speaker 1: there would be hundreds of them and they would all
Speaker 1: rush into the metro together and jump over the turnstiles
Speaker 1: and so the uh that's how it all started. And
Speaker 1: then the police were very heavy handed in their reaction
Speaker 1: and got very violot and then it got kind of
Speaker 1: worse from there, and so the protest exploded into more
Speaker 1: of a general protest because Um, there's been a lot
Speaker 1: of problems in Chile and there's a lot of um
Speaker 1: inequality and a lot of things that have never been
Speaker 1: fixed since the since the dictatorship, so they're still using
Speaker 1: the same constitution that was written by Pino j and um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and there's lots of other things, Yeah, the corruption of Pinera,
Speaker 1: the current president, and then a lot of protests over
Speaker 1: the last couple of years about the pension plans, the
Speaker 1: a FP and so of company, UM, selling land of
Speaker 1: for hydro electric companies too only for business. And it's
Speaker 1: really interesting because in Chilen almost uh ten family are
Speaker 1: they have control uh for of the they are they
Speaker 1: they are they have control with the core control rica. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's it's similar to the United States, where there's
Speaker 1: you know, a couple of hundred billionaires that are kind
Speaker 1: of controlling every day, but in Jilian it's literally ten
Speaker 1: families and these ten families are very very rich and
Speaker 1: have a lot of control in the country. UM. But
Speaker 1: but yeah, so it's it's about a lot of things. UM,
Speaker 1: the protest now and uh would you you're walking in
Speaker 1: this no? Please continue? Please continue? Now in this Um
Speaker 1: you know this uh Perio Perio of the Pineria that
Speaker 1: is the president. Is it the second um Perio second
Speaker 1: term term? Yeah, they has So I think all the
Speaker 1: Chilean think that the cops in Um in the terms
Speaker 1: of the Pinera, they are more aggressive this year in
Speaker 1: all the term. So there's also, yeah, a big issue
Speaker 1: with like the militariation, militarization of the of the police. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so the police are really heavy, and like she was saying,
Speaker 1: especially with under under Piera, the police respond to often
Speaker 1: peaceful protests with with dear guys and um and violence.
Speaker 1: And now of course there's been declared the state of
Speaker 1: emergencies and now you have the military in tanks in
Speaker 1: the streets too. And why you said that the police
Speaker 1: have gotten more aggressive and more violent this year, Why
Speaker 1: would you do you have do is there a reason
Speaker 1: behind that? Do you think like, is there some sort
Speaker 1: of cause to that that you can see? No, it's
Speaker 1: not any reason. It's only a strategy of the government.
Speaker 1: But it is a bad idea. And in Um a
Speaker 1: couple of months ago we saw some car of the cuffs,
Speaker 1: uh driving in the in the passel really traditionally the
Speaker 1: center of the city and uh tear gas. Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: A couple of months ago there was some crazy protests
Speaker 1: and the police were We're driving through like plazid there
Speaker 1: almost like the downtown, like the center of the historic
Speaker 1: center of town and and and throwing tear guys at
Speaker 1: people who aren't even protesting. And um, but to answer
Speaker 1: your question, I think that it just has to do
Speaker 1: with the government, because, um, a couple of years ago
Speaker 1: the president was Bachelte, who is more center left, And
Speaker 1: so I think the police now under Vinera, understand that
Speaker 1: they kind of have carte blanche to do whatever they
Speaker 1: want and that they won't be reprimanded for um violence
Speaker 1: against protesters. And when this when this current wave of
Speaker 1: like heavy street actions broke out, were y'all there for
Speaker 1: sort of the beginning of that. Were you there and
Speaker 1: sort of the first day that this like really kicked
Speaker 1: off into um, you know, a citywide sort of thing
Speaker 1: rather than just kind of a fair protest. Yeah, definitely,
Speaker 1: so we UM we live about step six or seven
Speaker 1: blocks from the Plaza Talia, which is the Metro Baca Vado,
Speaker 1: which is like the center of downtown, and it's the
Speaker 1: historic place where protests always start and and so we're
Speaker 1: kind of in the thick of it. And then also
Speaker 1: we are right by this intersection where when the protest
Speaker 1: really got serious two nights ago, Um, the there were
Speaker 1: five buses that were burned right at our intersection. So, um, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's kind of right outside our door. And uh, what
Speaker 1: do you one of the Obviously, I think, probably internationally,
Speaker 1: the most famous image from these protests so far is
Speaker 1: the headquarters of that electric company um being burned down. Um.
Speaker 1: And it's usually most of the sources I've seen have
Speaker 1: ascribed it to the protesters, but I have seen a
Speaker 1: lot of people saying that, um, it couldn't have been
Speaker 1: protesters because the fire started on the floor that only
Speaker 1: a limited number of people have access to. Obviously, I
Speaker 1: don't think anyone can prove to a point of certainty
Speaker 1: one way or the other what happened. Yet, Um, do
Speaker 1: they all have sort of a take on that, an
Speaker 1: opinion on that what you think is most likely what
Speaker 1: most people seem to believe. Yeah, it's it's weird with
Speaker 1: the busses the same us. It's crazy to believe because uh,
Speaker 1: with with the problem with the buses, m we saw
Speaker 1: a couple of videos and one of these busses was
Speaker 1: sculpted for the Cups and really weird situations and almost
Speaker 1: the bus they put in the place for the people
Speaker 1: can learn in for angry and for the problem. So
Speaker 1: this is not the first time that the Cups makes
Speaker 1: stuff crazy like that. So you can think about and
Speaker 1: can using your imagination to to think that it's real,
Speaker 1: it's it's fake. Is yeah, like you know, we're not
Speaker 1: typically uh like conspiracy theorist people, but as far as
Speaker 1: like what a lot of people have been talking about
Speaker 1: is with both the n L Electric Company UM, with
Speaker 1: the fire that happened on their their staircase right there
Speaker 1: fire escape UM, and there was a number of suspicious
Speaker 1: things about it. You know, it's started on the eleventh floor,
Speaker 1: so it's like, how could a protester do that? And
Speaker 1: I don't know, UM, And of course it only burned
Speaker 1: that the fire escape and it didn't touch anything about
Speaker 1: the main building and there's so there's a lot of
Speaker 1: suspicion here UM of that. And then uh, the idea
Speaker 1: that possibly it was the police, so the government who
Speaker 1: started that as in a way to justify um, bringing
Speaker 1: in the military and all of that and starting the curfew.
Speaker 1: And what's that thing is very similar is uh these
Speaker 1: five buses that were burned outside of our apartment. UM.
Speaker 1: It was very strange because yes, there's there's almost never
Speaker 1: five buses all right next to each other on the
Speaker 1: street in the corner and UM. And then there's also
Speaker 1: been videos that have been passed around what'sapp and UM
Speaker 1: social media where you see that these busses were like discontinued,
Speaker 1: so they were already like in bad situation, their bad shape.
Speaker 1: And then there's a video that's been passed around of
Speaker 1: the police like escorting one of these busses, like very slowly,
Speaker 1: almost like they're escorting it here so they can burn
Speaker 1: it and again use it as justification, um to ratchet
Speaker 1: up the police response. So it's hard to say, and
Speaker 1: you know, you don't want to be a conspiracy theorist,
Speaker 1: but certainly there's uh, there there's suspicious things happening in
Speaker 1: that regarded and on the street here. Almost every chile
Speaker 1: and that we've talked to has has said that they
Speaker 1: pretty much believe that it was the police that that
Speaker 1: we're doing that. And in terms of what you've seen
Speaker 1: in person from the police response to all this, how
Speaker 1: would you how would you describe how you've watched the police,
Speaker 1: uh deal with the protests so far? Like what have
Speaker 1: you seen? Um? Just a lot of tear gas, a
Speaker 1: lot of um the water cannons, mostly tear gas. Uh.
Speaker 1: Just in in our experience, we've been kind of playing
Speaker 1: it safe. We weren't getting really too too far into
Speaker 1: the extreme protest. UM. We kept trying to go to
Speaker 1: the center to Plaza Talia, but we kept getting pushed
Speaker 1: back by tear guys us every time. UM. So. And
Speaker 1: we've seen videos of extreme violence, the police beating people
Speaker 1: and it's even hitting them with their cars, extreme stuff
Speaker 1: and shooting them. Yeah, and there's been a lot of
Speaker 1: videos we've seen on social media of the police shooting
Speaker 1: innocent protesters not doing anything. But as far as what
Speaker 1: we saw with our our own eyes, um, mostly just
Speaker 1: a lot of tear gas. But sometimes it would be
Speaker 1: just like peaceful protesters and the police would drive by
Speaker 1: and literally throw a tear gas out the window a
Speaker 1: canister and then drive away. So it's also it's also
Speaker 1: interesting some people have been commenting that it's a little different.
Speaker 1: It seems different the police strategy this time in comparison
Speaker 1: to previous protests, whether they're not so much like cantling
Speaker 1: the protesters or um, not so much getting into one.
Speaker 1: I want physical like fistfights, um, which is a kid.
Speaker 1: Some people are saying, you know that they watched the
Speaker 1: protesters to get more extreme and burn more things and loot,
Speaker 1: so that that justifies what they're doing. Yeah, and divide
Speaker 1: the people because right now you have the more extreme
Speaker 1: external people going and staff destroying the city, destroying the
Speaker 1: pharmacy or the supermarket, and the people like us that
Speaker 1: we take the the store when you shake with the
Speaker 1: spoon all day and and when the police, um, you
Speaker 1: can see the police and you need to run. So
Speaker 1: uh So the government, I think they want to divide
Speaker 1: the feeling of the people, the feeling of the protests
Speaker 1: and the union of the people and um yeah, um,
Speaker 1: so yeah, they're they're just trying to divide the people
Speaker 1: so that the people who might sympathize with the protesters
Speaker 1: will say, no, they've gone too far. They started to
Speaker 1: be burning things or or taking down h street lights
Speaker 1: or or looting, um supermarkets, um so. Yeah, and uh
Speaker 1: as for this curfew, like how long can you see
Speaker 1: it last? It's so extreme it doesn't seem like civil
Speaker 1: life could continue if it goes on for too much longer. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: it just started last night. Last night it started in o'clock,
Speaker 1: and then tonight they started at seven o'clock. So it
Speaker 1: is very extreme and the like I was saying to
Speaker 1: you uh in texts that I mean, if it if
Speaker 1: it were to go on for two more weeks, it
Speaker 1: would be insane. I can't imagine that that would happen.
Speaker 1: It would shut down the entire city. Um. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, I don't like tonight's protests were crazier
Speaker 1: than last night. I don't know. I don't see how
Speaker 1: it stops because Panierra doesn't seem like everything from the
Speaker 1: government has been just attacking the protesters, not taking any
Speaker 1: responsibility for the action of the police. Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: don't know if that he shanged the price of the
Speaker 1: ticket boss, if we are going to record the peace
Speaker 1: in the city, the people have has too much angry,
Speaker 1: So I don't know if we are going to be
Speaker 1: confor um like satisfied. Panierra has mentioned that he might
Speaker 1: um he might freeze the price increase for the Metro,
Speaker 1: but at this point it's like that's not going to
Speaker 1: be enough to satisfy people, because, as we mentioned, the
Speaker 1: protest is about things much worse than the metro fare.
Speaker 1: So uh yeah, I mean, like, I don't think people
Speaker 1: will stop protesting in less Panera resigns. The people are
Speaker 1: out there shouting and calling for his resignment, resignation, and um,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't obviously I don't think he wants
Speaker 1: to do that either. And if you could send out
Speaker 1: a message to people from around the world, Americans in
Speaker 1: Europeans and everyone else not in Chile listening to this,
Speaker 1: what is it that you want other people to know
Speaker 1: about what's happening in your country? UM, I don't know.
Speaker 1: When when we live in um in Colombia. Um, the
Speaker 1: most uh come on stuff that the people ask us.
Speaker 1: It was why we leave Chile when Chile is so good,
Speaker 1: so good country and all the system is so so good.
Speaker 1: But the problem is that the problem is Chile has
Speaker 1: a lot of problems for a long time, almost started
Speaker 1: with the queue and we didn't have any solution for this.
Speaker 1: So yeah, we are not a gay. We have problems.
Speaker 1: We have a huge problems in the world. Uh, didn't
Speaker 1: know any like that. So yeah, I guess I would
Speaker 1: just say to people that, UM, I hope that people
Speaker 1: are aware of what the Chileans are protesting for, and
Speaker 1: that they understand that it's not about the match row fair.
Speaker 1: It is not only about paying ten cents more, um,
Speaker 1: that it's about deeper, profound issues at that are at
Speaker 1: the core of this country, um, like for example, still
Speaker 1: having the constitution that was written by a dictator and
Speaker 1: things like that. UM. And so yeah, like Stephanie was saying, uh,
Speaker 1: kind of that people maybe need to understand that that
Speaker 1: life is really not so easy in Chile, or or
Speaker 1: maybe it is easy um for of the country, but
Speaker 1: a lot of the people here are really struggling and uh.
Speaker 1: And the minimum wage is really really low and uh
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of fundamental problems and and that's
Speaker 1: why I think this is happening. So I would just
Speaker 1: ask people to, um, unders stand a little bit about
Speaker 1: the other issues with them, with the constitution and the
Speaker 1: corruption and the pension plans and the minimum wage and
Speaker 1: all of those. And and even though I don't condone
Speaker 1: looting or violence or anything like that, UM, I would
Speaker 1: ask that people have some some empathy for the people
Speaker 1: who are out here protesting for a better life. And obviously,
Speaker 1: I think that the most well known protests occurring in
Speaker 1: the world right now are the ones in Hong Kong,
Speaker 1: and I think the tactics there, I've seen them used
Speaker 1: encrypted by protest movements in a number of other countries
Speaker 1: that are going on right now. Have you seen that
Speaker 1: have any impact on the tactics people are using on
Speaker 1: the ground, UM. I know that I've seen a lot
Speaker 1: of people sharing videos on social media about like the
Speaker 1: Hong Kong protesters. UM, I like diffusing the tear gas canisters.
Speaker 1: You know, they'll put a traffic pone on top of
Speaker 1: it and then pour some some sort of chemical solution
Speaker 1: in there and it it neutralizes it. So I know
Speaker 1: that I haven't actually seen ay Chilean's do that, but
Speaker 1: I know a lot of people were talking about that. UM,
Speaker 1: and well we have seen we were just being watched
Speaker 1: by a drone. UM. But I don't think the facial
Speaker 1: recognition here in Chile is as strong as Hong Kong. UM.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think that part of it is. UM,
Speaker 1: what's happening in Hong Kong and what's happy in Ecuador
Speaker 1: right now is probably probably influencing the protesters here. Um.
Speaker 1: And it seems just in the last week that protests
Speaker 1: have started in a number of other countries. UM. Is
Speaker 1: there any sort of feeling, at least from you, that
Speaker 1: this is part of kind of a global You know,
Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier in the interview that a lot of
Speaker 1: some of the problems that are happening in Chile right
Speaker 1: now are are similar to someone that we're dealing with
Speaker 1: in the United States and others, just like concentration of wealth.
Speaker 1: Do you have a sense that, like the mass uprising
Speaker 1: is going on in a number of nations, are all
Speaker 1: sort of part of something global that's bigger than just
Speaker 1: the movements in the individual countries. UM, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I would like to thank so, UM. I would like
Speaker 1: to think that, you know, hopefully we are opening our
Speaker 1: eyes to the failures of neoliberalism. But UM, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know, if I don't know if there's there
Speaker 1: is a grander movement here sick I started. Still, yeah,
Speaker 1: but I don't connect. Movement doesn't clar am super milio.
Speaker 1: So another thing is that, Um, we have the left
Speaker 1: maybe is growing stronger and um, using more forceful methods
Speaker 1: because of the growth of the extreme rights in in
Speaker 1: uh you know, all over the world, um, but especially
Speaker 1: feeling that in South America, UH with in Brazil and
Speaker 1: then also in Chile where you have, um, someone like
Speaker 1: Caste who was a presidential candidate who is extremely to
Speaker 1: the right, even more so than the current president. And
Speaker 1: and so I think that the the the maybe in
Speaker 1: some ways the left is responding to that and a
Speaker 1: fear of the extreme authoritary and return to dictatorship, right
Speaker 1: like you have um with Bosonaro in Brazil or you
Speaker 1: know cast who who who knows could be president of
Speaker 1: Chile one day. Well, thank you both very much for
Speaker 1: your time. I really appreciate you talking with me today.
Speaker 1: UM cool man. Yeah, that's all I wanted to get
Speaker 1: into right now. UM. Obviously I'll be in touch with
Speaker 1: you as I figure out kind of my schedule and
Speaker 1: and please do keep me updated on on y'all and
Speaker 1: what you see happening outside your door. Okay, Yeah, definitely,
Speaker 1: I'm happy to send you some photos if you make
Speaker 1: it down here. Um, well, we'll show you around and
Speaker 1: and yeah, send me a link to your podcast. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: Thank you both so much for your time. Okay, cool man,
Speaker 1: you have a good one, you too. By Okay, I'm back.
Speaker 1: And that was the Chile interview, and next we have
Speaker 1: my interview with Jody Ayoub over in Lebanon, So I'm
Speaker 1: going to play that now. Hey Joey, Hey, Hey, sorry,
Speaker 1: is this a good time still? Yeah? I'm doing good.
Speaker 1: How are you doing today? Yeah? Uh? Well, UM, I
Speaker 1: guess we should just get into it. I'm I'm trying to.
Speaker 1: I'm doing as much reading as I can to try
Speaker 1: to understand what's happening um in Beirut right now. Um.
Speaker 1: And you know, obviously, UM, there's a lot to keep
Speaker 1: track of. You know, I've been, I've been. I've been
Speaker 1: covering Iraq and Syria for years, and I would say
Speaker 1: I barely have a minimal level of competence in either
Speaker 1: of those nations politics. So I'm pretty new to focusing
Speaker 1: on what's happening in Beirut. Um. From what I've listened
Speaker 1: to or been able to read, it seems like, um,
Speaker 1: like the thing that the news is crediting for these
Speaker 1: uprising or for the uprising might not be the right word,
Speaker 1: but for these protests is attacks on what's app um
Speaker 1: when I've I've listened to or read things that other
Speaker 1: people in the area have written. Um, it seems like
Speaker 1: the wildfires that swept the country, and like the fact
Speaker 1: that this helicopter fleet that was purchased by you know,
Speaker 1: volunteers and then like allowed to kind of, um decay
Speaker 1: into obsolescence. Like the fact that just in general the
Speaker 1: government has been very ineffective at dealing with major problems
Speaker 1: like those wildfires is a much bigger reason for the protests. Um.
Speaker 1: But I'm interested in kind of your telling of like
Speaker 1: why this has all happened, um and sort of how
Speaker 1: it's how it where you see things as being at
Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, So it's it's a bit of both,
Speaker 1: and obviously it's much more than that. At the same time,
Speaker 1: the wildfires that was last Monday, so that's the fourteenth,
Speaker 1: the night of lasted about eight hours and it was
Speaker 1: what hectares. Yeah yeah, and those putting that we lost
Speaker 1: basically years worth off peas lost usually, so I think
Speaker 1: there was something that clem against peas. That's horrible. That's
Speaker 1: usually an average Yeah. Uh So that obviously pissed a
Speaker 1: lot of people off because the government was utterly incapable
Speaker 1: on reading whatever we used to deal with it. You
Speaker 1: had pretty much we haven't had seven servants paid in
Speaker 1: like twenty years. Of these all volunteer forces, and you
Speaker 1: had you even had like this a defense forces from
Speaker 1: the Palestinian camps that stepped up. They helped, and you
Speaker 1: had basically volunteers just doing it themselves. There wasn't really
Speaker 1: anything until two things happened that put them off. One
Speaker 1: is Greece cyclists in Jordan basically sent some you know,
Speaker 1: helicopters and whatever. And the other thing is we got
Speaker 1: lucky because it started gaining the day after. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: that's pretty much why, like we the damage was more
Speaker 1: or less limited, if you want. And so the fact
Speaker 1: that after all of this, just like a day later
Speaker 1: or something, the first thing the government can think of
Speaker 1: the ing to impose it acts on what'sapp, which is
Speaker 1: obviously free service that people use because actual phone services
Speaker 1: are extremely expensive in Lebanon. That was kind of you know,
Speaker 1: as everyone has been saying that, you know, that whole
Speaker 1: sort of book becomes back then, and then you had
Speaker 1: protests on that like that Thursday evening. So that's basically
Speaker 1: a week now. And in that protest, you had lots
Speaker 1: of gold blogs, you had basically some of the usual
Speaker 1: protests that we have been seeing before. And during that protest,
Speaker 1: one of this if you want symbols, that became this. Uh.
Speaker 1: I don't know the point of unity, I guess is
Speaker 1: there was a bodyguard of one one politician took out
Speaker 1: his gun, started scaring people. People were not scared, they
Speaker 1: were actually fighting back, and then he had this woman
Speaker 1: who kicked him. Uh. And that became this sort of
Speaker 1: meme and it became super popular and that kind of
Speaker 1: galvanized everything. And then after that it became sort of
Speaker 1: like a daily so more people come down, there's a
Speaker 1: bit of a quassion than the next day. Even more
Speaker 1: people come down a familiar story if you if you
Speaker 1: see what I'm going with this and now how it's
Speaker 1: the number eight and people are sitting the streets and
Speaker 1: it's way more than justin my roots. And it was
Speaker 1: you know, it was the biggest protests so far. We're
Speaker 1: something like a quarter of the entire population that got
Speaker 1: out into the streets. Am I am? I right on that.
Speaker 1: It was like a million some odd people. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the numbers I've seen. Is something like a million,
Speaker 1: like one point two million to one point seven million,
Speaker 1: and Lebanon is something like five million or six million
Speaker 1: if you want to us as well. That's almost unbelievable
Speaker 1: and percentage of the computation. Yeah, I can't imagine protests
Speaker 1: of that scale ever occurring in the United States, Like
Speaker 1: it would literally be one of the most significant happenings
Speaker 1: in the history of our nation. Does does it feel
Speaker 1: like that to you, Like this is one of the
Speaker 1: most important things that's happened in the history of Lebanon. Yes,
Speaker 1: for like for two reasons, of even three seasons, I
Speaker 1: was involved, So I kind of give some backcount here.
Speaker 1: I was involved in the protests those that follow the
Speaker 1: waste crisis, as in as in like organizing its early weeks.
Speaker 1: And one thing that happened then that it's not happening
Speaker 1: now is that back then it was really central centralized
Speaker 1: to Baywood, and you sort of had like a sort
Speaker 1: of middle class um focused to it. If you want.
Speaker 1: Now it is completely spontaneous, there's actually no organizers, and
Speaker 1: it is babout is actually not even the most impressive one.
Speaker 1: You have protests in Tripoli that have been going on
Speaker 1: every single day. You have protests in nobody here in
Speaker 1: the end of our valley in um zoom zoom must
Speaker 1: and um shrump and sue here in the South. I'm
Speaker 1: trying forgetting many other places. You pretty much like have
Speaker 1: over a hundred or two hundred hundred vote blocks every
Speaker 1: single day right now. Uh. And it is utterly spontaneous.
Speaker 1: It's not there's not there's no organization behind it. So
Speaker 1: that's like really one of the main I kind of
Speaker 1: mentioned both at the same time, the fact is not
Speaker 1: centralized in Bayboot and the fact that it's it's spontaneous
Speaker 1: and you have much more of an awareness if you
Speaker 1: want that, like we tried. It kind of led to
Speaker 1: more or less good stuff in twenty sixteen, but not enough.
Speaker 1: Like the Baywood Madinity campaign during the municipal elections of
Speaker 1: Baywood kind of hinted that it was things were going
Speaker 1: in the right direction. But then you had the elections
Speaker 1: last year and I think we had like one independent
Speaker 1: or two independents that are actually got in parliament, and
Speaker 1: that was about it. Because the whole system usually Lebanon
Speaker 1: is univided between much eight coalitions and much vote in coalition.
Speaker 1: They kind of came together last year to defeat a
Speaker 1: civil society foret and they've been doing this time and
Speaker 1: time again. The current government is a government that historically
Speaker 1: has actually been of parties that were actually opposed to
Speaker 1: one another. How it is a future movement and jam
Speaker 1: one bestie is pre patriotic movement, not to mention, I'm uh,
Speaker 1: you know, these are coalitions that kind of get formed
Speaker 1: on and often it sence depending on the circumstances. And
Speaker 1: what can you tell us about sort of the nature
Speaker 1: of how the security forces have responded to this. I
Speaker 1: can tell you that, like a lot of what I've
Speaker 1: seen on Twitter has been you know, there's been some
Speaker 1: pictures of like Lebanese soldiers, you know, with tears in
Speaker 1: their eyes. Uh. And I guess sort of the thing
Speaker 1: we're led to take out of that is that, Um,
Speaker 1: even the Lebanese like police and military, very sympathetic to
Speaker 1: the protests. Um. I I can't tell what's actually happening
Speaker 1: on the ground. So I'm wondering what is your what
Speaker 1: is your take on that? Oh that's not ideal? No,
Speaker 1: And I mean, oh sorry you you cut out for
Speaker 1: a second. Um, could you start your answer to that.
Speaker 1: You heard the question right, Yes, sorry, Yeah, it depends
Speaker 1: on So it depends on when and where. You did
Speaker 1: have some instances where the Lebanese army was sort of uh,
Speaker 1: his saint like it did it actually stood in between
Speaker 1: corotesters and what we would call shabbihas or some elements
Speaker 1: of the Sectain parties that are basically lad loose to
Speaker 1: intimidate people, if not the worse. But in other cases,
Speaker 1: like when we were do you guess last week, that
Speaker 1: was living his army as well doing it. So it
Speaker 1: really depends on when and where. There is definitely a
Speaker 1: sentiment I think among Lebanese protesters. I don't share it personally,
Speaker 1: but it's definitely the majority that, um, you basically need
Speaker 1: to defend the army and try and get them on
Speaker 1: your side in a sense at least individual and individual's capacity.
Speaker 1: That hasn't happened. I don't think it will happen, but
Speaker 1: that hasn't happened as if now, because I wanted to
Speaker 1: read on this that the main difference between the army
Speaker 1: in Lebanon and the army in other places in the
Speaker 1: Middle East North Africa is that the army in Lebanon
Speaker 1: is not the song before the song is forced in Lebanon.
Speaker 1: That's Hesballa and every like. Basically, you know, everyone knows that,
Speaker 1: and so it's not seen as uh oh, you know,
Speaker 1: we might have a military coup or anything like that,
Speaker 1: because that's not really in the realm of of reality
Speaker 1: if you want. So, most of the violence, again depending
Speaker 1: on where we're talking, but quite a lot of the
Speaker 1: most brutal anyway violence has come from the sectarian parties.
Speaker 1: So yesterday there was lots of violence in nobody m
Speaker 1: by Hesvola and I'm a gangs basically shapiha, and you
Speaker 1: have something like training five or thirty people who are
Speaker 1: injured and had to go to the hospital. And in
Speaker 1: the evening yesterday you had also again i'll just use
Speaker 1: the word shapiha of the three Patriotic movement in another
Speaker 1: area not too far from where I live, that attacked
Speaker 1: people as well. Actually I'm not sure how many people
Speaker 1: were injured in that one. It wasn't as serious as
Speaker 1: the one in the South, but it was fairly serious
Speaker 1: as well. So you do have these tensions between a
Speaker 1: a spontaneous um if you want sense sense of the
Speaker 1: fact that we're getting at the point where we can
Speaker 1: no longer tolerate thirty years of this. You know, two
Speaker 1: days ago was the thirtieth anniversary commemoration whatever after Toteve Agreement,
Speaker 1: the agreement that was signed in that ended Delibanese Civil War,
Speaker 1: and they signed it in the city off and Saudi Arabia,
Speaker 1: and that a system sort of codified sectarianism even more
Speaker 1: than it was before the war. It did a number
Speaker 1: of things I won't get into now it's not that prelevant,
Speaker 1: but what it did really is make it almost basically
Speaker 1: impossible for anyone to identify for in any other way
Speaker 1: other than with your sect. So the fact that I
Speaker 1: am from a certain sect, it doesn't matter if I
Speaker 1: am a believer or not, in atheists or not, None
Speaker 1: of these things matter. What matters is that this, this
Speaker 1: is your sect, and so you vote according to that,
Speaker 1: and you vote according to sect and according to where
Speaker 1: your family is supposedly originally from. So for example, I
Speaker 1: can vote in a Shefi, but I don't live in
Speaker 1: a Vie. I live in a different part of Lebanon.
Speaker 1: And that's part of the reason why it's been so
Speaker 1: difficult to really organize, because, for example, when there was
Speaker 1: a municipal elections in two thousands sixteen, uh, something like
Speaker 1: a quarter of storry. Like, there's four times more people
Speaker 1: who actually live in baby Woods than people who are
Speaker 1: adjusted to to vote in bay Woods. So you have
Speaker 1: many of my friends who live and I don't live
Speaker 1: in Baywood, but they lived and they live in baby Woods,
Speaker 1: and so they were helping organized people who are officially
Speaker 1: registered in Baywood, including people who don't live there, to
Speaker 1: vote there. So that's kind of just like a small
Speaker 1: example of why it's been so difficult on all levels
Speaker 1: to really organize for an alternative to the sectank system
Speaker 1: that we have now. And it does seem like what
Speaker 1: we're seeing. And again, you know, this is my my
Speaker 1: perception as very much an outsider, that some of this
Speaker 1: sectarianism is starting to fade um in the face of
Speaker 1: kind of an understanding that more solidarity between groups is
Speaker 1: necessary if you're going to actually deal with sort of
Speaker 1: the problems that are making it so expensive to just
Speaker 1: live a basic life and let it on. Is that
Speaker 1: is that what you feel you are seeing or would
Speaker 1: you say I'm kind of off base there, No, No,
Speaker 1: that's definitely what's happening that that's really been that is
Speaker 1: the most explorant thing that's happening, and that's why it
Speaker 1: really feels different than before. Again, as someone like I've
Speaker 1: been involved in protests since I think two thousand and
Speaker 1: ten was my first one, and I went I went
Speaker 1: to the very defenced thousand eleven. There was some stuff
Speaker 1: in between, and then two thousands fifteen was the big one,
Speaker 1: and then you had, as I said to us in
Speaker 1: sixteen thousand eighteen, but there's nothing. Really what's happening now
Speaker 1: Now you have a chance in triplely a Sooni majority
Speaker 1: down the north saying like openly and people like in
Speaker 1: the hundreds of thousands repeating that these chants like we
Speaker 1: are with you nobody, which is a majority Shire area
Speaker 1: until the death, and we are like we are I
Speaker 1: don't know how to translate this, but we stand in
Speaker 1: solidarity with nobody and with with you know, Bayhood and
Speaker 1: and su and all of these other areas. And there
Speaker 1: is very much a sense that, um, it's it's something
Speaker 1: has been broken, like the in a good way, Like
Speaker 1: there is a way of doing things that is extremely difficult.
Speaker 1: That even if people stop contesting today, which I don't
Speaker 1: think it's gonna happen anyway, that it is impossible for
Speaker 1: the government to just continue and do things as they
Speaker 1: have been doing so far. And one symbolic way that
Speaker 1: that has been happening has been through extremely hood. If
Speaker 1: you want, insults that people have been throwing against uh politicians,
Speaker 1: like notably that this is the song that you have
Speaker 1: been repeating about see, which is basically fuck his mother.
Speaker 1: That's basically what it means. Yeah, and that that has
Speaker 1: that has been repeated on against pretty much all major politicians,
Speaker 1: including although much more shindy with someone like Hassan against
Speaker 1: someone like Hassan and some of the other leaders that
Speaker 1: have had this sort of most sectarian events to their politics,
Speaker 1: even though they're all part of this extariance system. Now,
Speaker 1: that's just the fact that like fuck your mother, you know,
Speaker 1: essentially is a chance like that, you know you're talking.
Speaker 1: Lebanon is particularly Beirut is kind of a very very
Speaker 1: much a city of the world, but Lebanon, and again,
Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong here, much more traditional in
Speaker 1: a lot of aspects, like the fact that people are
Speaker 1: saying things like this um that are so explicit and
Speaker 1: so kind of obscene is a marker of how extreme
Speaker 1: the situation has gotten. That that that that would even
Speaker 1: be seen as acceptable like that that seems very um
Speaker 1: shocking to me. Um. Yeah, I mean these insults are
Speaker 1: very common, but they are not common towards the politicians.
Speaker 1: They're not common towards people people that you usually you
Speaker 1: would orm is like you would give them on a
Speaker 1: griffics like sir and Mr Your excellency, you know, that
Speaker 1: sort of thing. And the fact that you have people
Speaker 1: explicitly when they're being interviewed like what if no one
Speaker 1: if people who aren't going down to the seats what
Speaker 1: they've been doing basically for the past week is just
Speaker 1: opened some of the channels LBC for example, and you
Speaker 1: have like the split sky into six different you know,
Speaker 1: areas of Lebanon, and people just being interviewed and giving
Speaker 1: their opinion. And the sense that you get, whether you're
Speaker 1: on the seats or what you just at home, is
Speaker 1: that there is something that is no longer taken for granted,
Speaker 1: which is that these people have light time and time
Speaker 1: and time and time again. And of course those in
Speaker 1: civil society as you might call them, all the activists
Speaker 1: or even the working classes that are the most affected,
Speaker 1: these are known like no, none of this is serious. Sorry,
Speaker 1: none of this is new, but there is something about
Speaker 1: how all of these things happen at the same time
Speaker 1: that I don't want to say that people just walk
Speaker 1: up to day because obviously that's not how things happen.
Speaker 1: But it's just that as we say, like the the
Speaker 1: wall of fear, if you want, has been broken. That's
Speaker 1: a bad translation, but that's basically what it means, and that, um,
Speaker 1: we are getting to the point where even in Nobody,
Speaker 1: which as I said, it's in the south very much
Speaker 1: an area where has Well and Emma have a lot
Speaker 1: of influence, where you have yesterday it was Ammal and
Speaker 1: has Well as shop attacking protesters, and then the next
Speaker 1: day people in Nobody, you go, there're still as we're speaking,
Speaker 1: out on the streets and something like an hour ago,
Speaker 1: two members of the municipal council often about a year
Speaker 1: because of being forced by the people to his art essentially,
Speaker 1: so you've been having these um pressures. And just before
Speaker 1: we spoke, something like uh, just before speaking to us,
Speaker 1: something two hours ago, the President Michionan also spoke and
Speaker 1: it was such a contrast to what's been happening. It's
Speaker 1: eight days after we started. He hasn't said a single
Speaker 1: thing before now and the film, which it says, the
Speaker 1: live but it is very obviously edited. You have lots
Speaker 1: of different scenes that keep on changing. It's obviously in edit.
Speaker 1: And he looks exhausted because he's fairly old, and what
Speaker 1: he said is utterly disconnected from reality, Like he could
Speaker 1: have said nothing and it would have made absolutely not different.
Speaker 1: In fact, I think he just passed people more off
Speaker 1: at this point. And let me let me think of
Speaker 1: the right word to phrase this question. Um, do you
Speaker 1: like what what is it that you think would be
Speaker 1: most you know, most of the audience listening to this,
Speaker 1: most of people listening this are going to be you know, Americans, Europeans.
Speaker 1: What what would you say if you could try to
Speaker 1: get just a couple of basic facts to them? What
Speaker 1: is the most important thing for them to understand about
Speaker 1: what is happening in Lebanon right now? And is there
Speaker 1: any way for them to help and to express solidarity
Speaker 1: with the Lebanese people who are currently protesting against their government.
Speaker 1: Well for the latter is I guess a bit easier quickly,
Speaker 1: like faster to answer, because there have been lots of
Speaker 1: dis protests, So I would guess befo enshoy your support
Speaker 1: to these people there because you're not the Lebanese U
Speaker 1: pretty much everywhere. Um, So that's that's a second question.
Speaker 1: The first question is if I need if I would
Speaker 1: summarize it, there was a civil war in between n
Speaker 1: and ninety ninety. Uh. I am of the generation that
Speaker 1: was born right after I was one, but UH to
Speaker 1: use it symbolically, to use that example in bit symbolically,
Speaker 1: just before I was born, there was the Amnesty Law
Speaker 1: that was passed which gave immunity to most crimes committed
Speaker 1: during the civil war. So most people who ended up
Speaker 1: in power after that were active participants in the civil war.
Speaker 1: One of the most notorious member examples of that is
Speaker 1: never hipl here was the leader of the Ammal movement
Speaker 1: and has been leader of the Amal movements since the seventies.
Speaker 1: He has been speaking of parliament since nine so he's
Speaker 1: been speaking of parliament for my entire existence basically. And
Speaker 1: this is someone like right now, there was a joke
Speaker 1: before UH that you know, we're fighting against sectarianism, and
Speaker 1: that means that the president, which currently has to be
Speaker 1: a Christian and the Prime Minister has to be a
Speaker 1: Sunni Muslim, and the steak of Parliament has to be
Speaker 1: a Chiao Muslim. The joke was that even if even
Speaker 1: if we get into a secular government, the member of
Speaker 1: Steak of Arlims or it will still been a Selby
Speaker 1: because he's been across all of the governments that have
Speaker 1: passed so far in the past few still so decades.
Speaker 1: So Lebanon has a sectarian system, a confessional system. I
Speaker 1: guess it is the official world, but we just call
Speaker 1: it which is sectarian, as if being sacked. And the
Speaker 1: way that works is that it basically makes it impossible
Speaker 1: to organize politically or even to vote outside of your set.
Speaker 1: There might be some like you might be in, like
Speaker 1: the sect being Christian, and you might vote for someone
Speaker 1: who's a different kind of Christian, but it is almost
Speaker 1: impossible to vote, for example, for it who is als
Speaker 1: to New Usia, depending on when we're talking about the
Speaker 1: municipal general elections and that sort of thing. So it
Speaker 1: has kind of um consolidated differences that sort of were
Speaker 1: thought out during the war. If you want, I'm grossly
Speaker 1: over simplifying the Civil War here. Obviously, it consolidated these
Speaker 1: identities and it made them. Impart, it made it impossible
Speaker 1: for those of us who want to identify simply on
Speaker 1: a civil level, like as only as any citizens. It
Speaker 1: made it impossible for us to only do that. And
Speaker 1: this is what the past street has basically been challenging.
Speaker 1: And we've been seeing much more of a sentiment that
Speaker 1: we are doing this as one people basically, and that
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter whether you're Shias and you who's or Christian.
Speaker 1: There are certain things that affect obviously everyone in corruption, poverty,
Speaker 1: all of that, and we need to starve these and
Speaker 1: one of the things I'm interested in, so I'm covering
Speaker 1: obviously we're in the middle of, um a number of
Speaker 1: different political uprisings around the world right now, a substantial
Speaker 1: number um and I mean I know that in Catalonia
Speaker 1: and to a lesser extent in Chile, the Hong Kong
Speaker 1: protests have served as as a sizeable sort of like
Speaker 1: inspirational factor in how people have approached resisting the government.
Speaker 1: Have you seen any imp act in terms of like
Speaker 1: the tactics of those protests on much being done right
Speaker 1: now in Lebanon. I've seen some people talk about it,
Speaker 1: and it was mentioned on the seats I've been going
Speaker 1: to the baby with once and some people on Twitter
Speaker 1: sharing these tactics on that people in Hong Kong have
Speaker 1: been doing, but I wouldn't say that. Like one of
Speaker 1: the issues that I think is common in Lebanon is
Speaker 1: how in the world, Oh could you could you say again?
Speaker 1: You cut off for a second? There? Yes, like there
Speaker 1: there there is a sense and that you sort of
Speaker 1: cut off from the world and that your links are
Speaker 1: the dire spoga links. So you might have people who
Speaker 1: know it, a bit about fans, a bit about Brazil
Speaker 1: or America or Canada or whatever. But that's the extent
Speaker 1: of how internationals things can get if you want. That's
Speaker 1: the limit of it. So you don't have as much
Speaker 1: of an influence from the rest of the world outside
Speaker 1: of the Arab majority world. So you have had some
Speaker 1: sentiments in UH from what I've seen, primarily in Tripolin
Speaker 1: growth and in they route towards for example, sending solidarity
Speaker 1: to to the Neese protesters at the time or two
Speaker 1: iraqis right now, you have this a bit, but primarily
Speaker 1: the overwhelming majority are simply focusing on what's in front
Speaker 1: of them essentially, and so because this system that we're
Speaker 1: talking about has really hampered Lebanon, in the Lebanese and
Speaker 1: people who live in Lebanon as well, because don't forget
Speaker 1: there are also Palestinians and Syrians and my domestic workers
Speaker 1: and so on. It has hampered everything to the point
Speaker 1: where it's just become impossible to look at anything else.
Speaker 1: And so my hope is that we solve this issue now.
Speaker 1: And I don't even think we're going to fully solve
Speaker 1: it obviously, but we start putting cracks in the system,
Speaker 1: and this will allow people in Lebanon. I think maybe
Speaker 1: that's the optimist in me to sort of regain a
Speaker 1: bit of confidence and that hopefully we can lead to
Speaker 1: us learning more things in a more long term. It's
Speaker 1: just that right now, the struggle has really been to
Speaker 1: maintain the momentum every single day. That's stially been the
Speaker 1: main thing. And because Lebanon is so divided by region,
Speaker 1: you don't have a train or a metro or you know,
Speaker 1: something that really links the region. Everything is just by
Speaker 1: cod it's been very easy for the sectarian parties to
Speaker 1: sort of luck off if you want an area from
Speaker 1: the other, and that's sort of been what's happening but thankfully,
Speaker 1: you know, through the Internet, social media, but also through
Speaker 1: some of the coverage on the news, you've been able
Speaker 1: we've been able to see what's been happening in other areas,
Speaker 1: and that has sort of sancthened individual contests as well.
Speaker 1: And that seems it's like, that's part of what seems
Speaker 1: like we're kind of watching the worst nightmare of the
Speaker 1: powers that be in Lebanon, Oica, which is these different
Speaker 1: groups that have been split by sort of sect um
Speaker 1: realizing that they all have much more in common with
Speaker 1: each other as fellow working class people, as people who
Speaker 1: have to you know, who can't count on um, you know,
Speaker 1: stealing millions of dollars from the larger chunk of the country,
Speaker 1: like the normal folks in Lebanon. Um realizing they have
Speaker 1: much more in common with one another than with the
Speaker 1: people who run the country. Um. That that seems like
Speaker 1: what's happening, and it seems like the worst case scenario
Speaker 1: for the people in charge. Yeah, yeah, that's definitely what's happening.
Speaker 1: And actually go down some numbers to show what we're like,
Speaker 1: what we're talking about when we're talking about the levels
Speaker 1: of inequality in Lebanon. This is as of and it's
Speaker 1: got worse worse it's worth and since the top one
Speaker 1: per cent receives approximately quota of the total national income,
Speaker 1: which means that the bottom fifty is left with ten
Speaker 1: percent of the national income the bottom makes and this
Speaker 1: is in US. The study was done in Uros. Bottom
Speaker 1: makes about three thousand euros per year. The middle forty percent,
Speaker 1: and this speaks to how there isn't there isn't a
Speaker 1: really middle class anymore. You sort of have a class
Speaker 1: that's in between. The middle forty percent makes eleven thousand
Speaker 1: euros a year, and then it goes up and up
Speaker 1: and up. The top ten percent makes eighty one thousand,
Speaker 1: the top one percent makes three hundred and thirty four thousand,
Speaker 1: and then the top zero point one percent makes one
Speaker 1: point five million, and the top zero point zero zero
Speaker 1: one percent makes forty seven million. So you would have
Speaker 1: in it in it in a city like Tripoli, which
Speaker 1: is one of the poorest, is third poor, is the
Speaker 1: biggest city basically the second biggest city in Lebanon. And
Speaker 1: as the pool is said that you have I think
Speaker 1: two or three or four I can I kind of
Speaker 1: keep losing kount of who's the billionaire and it was
Speaker 1: a multi hundred millionaire billionaires in a Jimmy Harti and
Speaker 1: and start having the abot from there and there are billionaires.
Speaker 1: This is just an example. This is sort of the
Speaker 1: sort of situation. And these are the numbers that we have.
Speaker 1: There are numbers that we don't have. We don't know,
Speaker 1: for example, on the side of Bottler, how much money
Speaker 1: is coming for Iran. We don't know all of these numbers,
Speaker 1: and we don't we don't know how much of the
Speaker 1: money that these Lebanese politicians, warlords, oligogus, whatever, have, how
Speaker 1: much of it is actually in Lebanon. You have people
Speaker 1: that were mentioned in depend on my papers a few
Speaker 1: years ago because they have you know, offshore accounts here
Speaker 1: and there. So in Swiss banks are always mentioned as
Speaker 1: but in the contest because it's so common for us
Speaker 1: to just assume and obviously it's accurate that they have
Speaker 1: so much money in Swiss banks. This this is just
Speaker 1: really like a a taste of of this situation that's here.
Speaker 1: So it's not just that people suddenly are realizing that
Speaker 1: they're you know, old Lebanese and they have these things
Speaker 1: in commons. It's not that in itself isn't really new.
Speaker 1: It's more that the way the only ways people have
Speaker 1: been able to mobilize so far because of the combination
Speaker 1: of Stanism as we mentioned, which is consolidated and basically
Speaker 1: made into law, but also the issues of the lack
Speaker 1: of public space, the issues of it's very difficult to
Speaker 1: actually physically get from one area to the other because
Speaker 1: of that, because of the lack of public transports. Sorry,
Speaker 1: it's been just exceremely difficult to kind of shape the
Speaker 1: system hard enough to allow independence at least as a
Speaker 1: start to get in and show just by example. It's
Speaker 1: been basically impossible to show by example that an alternative
Speaker 1: is possible. So the hope here is at least that's
Speaker 1: what That's the sentiment that I'm getting that most people
Speaker 1: are hoping that this government follows what comes after. It
Speaker 1: depends on who you talk to. Some someone is sort
Speaker 1: of some sorry, some people want this sort of technocratic
Speaker 1: government that temporarily replaces it and then you have early elections.
Speaker 1: Other people are just going for early elections directly, and
Speaker 1: the they hope basically is that this time, just as
Speaker 1: in last year we were we almost got a few
Speaker 1: independence this time we will be able to do way
Speaker 1: more because the people, the septaining warlords and oligogus that
Speaker 1: united again as US, are extremely unpopular and this time,
Speaker 1: hopefully or you know, next, in this imaginary future election,
Speaker 1: they will be less able to mobilize in the same
Speaker 1: way that they did before. Well, Joey, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for talking with me today. Is there anything else
Speaker 1: you wanted to talk about or wanted to mention before
Speaker 1: we we draw this to a close. I would just
Speaker 1: ask people to basically keep an eye out on what's happening.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it will get worse. I don't
Speaker 1: I'm hoping not, but it's very difficult to predict what
Speaker 1: some of these sectarian parties how they will react if
Speaker 1: they feel that the only thing they have to say
Speaker 1: in power is to basically show some folks because they
Speaker 1: all have a diminishas and that's obviously the worst case scenario.
Speaker 1: The best case scenario is that the pressure is so
Speaker 1: overwhelming and so um uh decentralized. So I'll mention this
Speaker 1: as a last thing. The fact that it's so decentralized
Speaker 1: means that if, for example, as Well wants to crack
Speaker 1: down on people in Nabatia. You will have people in
Speaker 1: Tripoli telling those people in Nabati that we stand with you.
Speaker 1: And there is this popular I think it went viral
Speaker 1: video of in Tripoli the third Night or something, people chanting.
Speaker 1: Before chanting Scott read the scottanism that people want to
Speaker 1: the downfall of the regime, which obviously have been a
Speaker 1: popular chant obviously from two thousand eleven. Now he adopted
Speaker 1: much more strongly in Lebanon. Besides that, they said something
Speaker 1: along the lines of if they shut down all the squares,
Speaker 1: our square will remain open. The triple the squares, I
Speaker 1: can't know, uh, And that's sort of the end, not
Speaker 1: that I can, like they know that, I can end
Speaker 1: on because it really shows that it would be very difficult,
Speaker 1: not impossible, but very difficult for their ruling establishment, these
Speaker 1: sectarian warlords or regogus to shut all of this down
Speaker 1: that I think is very difficult for them to do. Well.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Joey, Thank you for talking with me, and
Speaker 1: and thank you for sharing um your impressions of what's
Speaker 1: what's going on in your country. I really do appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thanks very time. Yeah, and last we have
Speaker 1: my interview with Kabbad, so I asctually conducted this through WhatsApp.
Speaker 1: I asked her some questions and she responded to me.
Speaker 1: So the first question was what is your understanding of
Speaker 1: the agreement reached by the SDF, which are the military
Speaker 1: forces of Rojaba in the Syrian regime. The memorandum between
Speaker 1: the STF and the city and regime is a military
Speaker 1: and not relevant to the political status of self adinistration. Actually,
Speaker 1: the withdrawal of the American did not give a choice
Speaker 1: to the court. Then dealing with the asset and the region,
Speaker 1: the raging forces are located in Kobani Men which I
Speaker 1: necessity as well. It's a present and their headquarters and
Speaker 1: has a gun. Commisially cities the officials of the self
Speaker 1: constrationcies that it's a duty of the city and government
Speaker 1: to protect Syria international border from the Turkish occupation. To
Speaker 1: avoid having the same scenario of offering. I talked too
Speaker 1: many people from commisially about that. They said they are
Speaker 1: not happy to receive the regime after all these years
Speaker 1: of self autonomous, but at the end region might be
Speaker 1: better than Turkey, and others said they will live if
Speaker 1: the regime take over this area, including me as many
Speaker 1: of them participate in the two thousand and eleven demonstration
Speaker 1: against asset. The second question I asked Abbat was how
Speaker 1: do you believe closer integration of Rojaba to the Syrian
Speaker 1: state will affect the progress of the women's revolution? Regime
Speaker 1: is representing the patriarchy system. On the contrary, Rojaba is
Speaker 1: representing the woman revolution. Woman of Rojaba built last eight
Speaker 1: year specific system for the woman in all levels military,
Speaker 1: economically and politically, and they made impact in the education
Speaker 1: via teaching digitology, which is a woman's science on the
Speaker 1: mentality of the new generations. In addition, the implementation of
Speaker 1: the co presidency system and all the institutions starting from
Speaker 1: coming to the highest official ranks allowed very effective participation
Speaker 1: of a woman to lead this region beside them and
Speaker 1: interview it the by theality co Presidency officers Siety Protection
Speaker 1: Forces in Al Jazeera kanton about this subject and she said,
Speaker 1: we know how to protect our servis now after a
Speaker 1: years of experience, and we are not afraid of a
Speaker 1: region coming back. It's obvious that the woman of Rojaba
Speaker 1: will not lead their gainst easily, but there is a
Speaker 1: great risk on the woman evolution in case the regime
Speaker 1: take over Java, I do believe that the region will
Speaker 1: first startet the woman specifically because this is what makes
Speaker 1: Rojava unique on a global level. Now, the third question
Speaker 1: I asked about was the ceasefire has written appears to
Speaker 1: give Turkey all at once and leave nothing for the
Speaker 1: STF for Rojava. Do you believe it will actually be followed,
Speaker 1: even the agreement being implementing under the American monitoring. But
Speaker 1: we saw the first the morning of the Truth had
Speaker 1: been bridged by Turkey and their backed forces. Turkey remote
Speaker 1: parts of the Wall and the seregoniest city and entered
Speaker 1: their backed forces. Heavy clashes took place in the city
Speaker 1: beside the Shilling as a result of the Turkish. Each
Speaker 1: of the Truth's last three days there were twenty five
Speaker 1: fighters being killed and seventeen injured. On the other side,
Speaker 1: seventeen civilians as a result, lost their lives as a
Speaker 1: result of the bombardment of the Turkish. Yesterday, there was
Speaker 1: a stop of bombardment for some time, which allowed the
Speaker 1: medical teams to evacuate a lot of injured and martyrs,
Speaker 1: both fighters and civilians. This afternoon, the STF announced they
Speaker 1: withdraw all the forces from Sareknya without details about the
Speaker 1: agreement yet and the military analysis the CIS fire. It
Speaker 1: doesn't mean surrounding by the SDF as there is no
Speaker 1: clear details about the agreement, but that doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: Turkey will stop the operation as soon it gets the
Speaker 1: saves one area between Serekanya until a Viett in thirty
Speaker 1: five kilometry depths, as we see on the ground that
Speaker 1: Turkey wants to destroy the safe administration system and Rajava.
Speaker 1: There is a report through report right now saying that
Speaker 1: there is a discussion between Turkey and Russia about Kobani.
Speaker 1: Even so, this is why it doesn't mean surrounding by
Speaker 1: the STF and it doesn't mean that turk was gonna
Speaker 1: stop even if they get that area. The fourth question
Speaker 1: I asked about was how has the Autonomous region handled
Speaker 1: the flow of so many refugees from villages under attack
Speaker 1: by Turkey. October nine, when the Turkish bombardment start against
Speaker 1: all Rojava cities, which is located on the Assyrian Turkish border.
Speaker 1: That led to a massive waves of the IDPs home
Speaker 1: mode from their cities to the villages in the south
Speaker 1: to be saved from the Turkish shilling like Derek uncommish cities,
Speaker 1: while others population moved to Hassaka City that is far
Speaker 1: from the border, which is Seregania, until tamer until Abba
Speaker 1: which is more close to the Hassaka city and those
Speaker 1: three last cities are most affected by the Turkish attack.
Speaker 1: The numbers of the I d P s it's it's
Speaker 1: increasing and until now it's get our two hundred thousands
Speaker 1: persons who have been displaced from their houses. Self administration
Speaker 1: municipality of the HASSCA our receiving basically the IDPs and
Speaker 1: they get some support from the U N Agencies, NGOs
Speaker 1: and local associations as they are transferring the schools to
Speaker 1: as shelters, but there is a lack of services. I
Speaker 1: went to in the past days to these shelters and
Speaker 1: there is uh. Every time, new numbers increasing very fast
Speaker 1: and the humanitarian situation get worse and the response is
Speaker 1: so slow comparing to their needs. In addition, it's it's
Speaker 1: wars as a results of the Turkish attack on the
Speaker 1: virtual centers. As the Turkish air strike they hit the
Speaker 1: unlocked dam in Surrecani which is feeding the WATA to
Speaker 1: a city of Ceregani and Hassca until timer and that's
Speaker 1: result a cut of water three days from those cities.
Speaker 1: And this situation of the population and the I d
Speaker 1: P s, it's get wars as a result of that. Also,
Speaker 1: I met many families and most of them basically from
Speaker 1: turl Abbas Regani and even some of them have been
Speaker 1: many times displacement as they were from a frin. I
Speaker 1: think if the international response is limited, that will gonna
Speaker 1: lead to a humanitarian crisis. Even I met the head
Speaker 1: of the West Municipality of the Haseka, Mohammed Shammy, and
Speaker 1: he was explaining to us how it's there is a
Speaker 1: pressure on the city and there is no support. For example,
Speaker 1: he gave an example about the needs of the bread.
Speaker 1: He said, we use it to back thirty five tones
Speaker 1: of the floor daily for Hasseka. Only last days we
Speaker 1: are baking fifty tons and we cannot cover the needs
Speaker 1: of the population. So the situation every day, every hour
Speaker 1: gate wars and wars and there is a gap and
Speaker 1: and all the organizations have to respond to these needs.
Speaker 1: The fifth question I asked how about was how constant
Speaker 1: a presence is Turk which air power? Ever, a lot
Speaker 1: of stories of convoys being bombed. Has this changed the
Speaker 1: way you travel during the day. Actually, while now I
Speaker 1: am trying to answer this question of yours, there is
Speaker 1: a plane. We're not sure if it in COMMISSI S guy,
Speaker 1: We're not sure it's it's belonged to home because it's
Speaker 1: it's just confusing. It's so low and it's clear that
Speaker 1: it's not drawns. Maybe it's a helicopter. Actually I cannot
Speaker 1: identify which kind of planet is, but it's there because
Speaker 1: despite the Pentagon statement that they were going to have
Speaker 1: no flies on even before Java, even before the Turkey
Speaker 1: attacks started, but on October nine, So when the first
Speaker 1: Turkish start was jets in Surregani, I was there and
Speaker 1: I witness it and it was the first hit by
Speaker 1: the air striking. And since then all other kinds of
Speaker 1: the war plans have been used. But the most affected
Speaker 1: city of the air striking it was Seregania antel Abbott.
Speaker 1: Last night, the injuries who have been in created by
Speaker 1: the cities, I met some doctors who are treating them
Speaker 1: and they told me, like most of the wands is
Speaker 1: the results of the air striking and shilling. So it
Speaker 1: doesn't stop because in a different occasion, the STF called
Speaker 1: the Americans for no fly zone and they were they
Speaker 1: were going to fight handling the fighting on the ground,
Speaker 1: but there was no response until this moment. In addition
Speaker 1: to the Turkish drones and the air strike, that's really
Speaker 1: restricted movement inside the cities and on the way. Also
Speaker 1: one of the main reason now it's affecting on the movement,
Speaker 1: it's the EICI sleeper sales. Even in the first day
Speaker 1: there is because they became very active recently and there
Speaker 1: is a sources confirmed that they opened the way to
Speaker 1: the Turkish packed forces which laid that they controlled on
Speaker 1: the m for how A highway and as a result
Speaker 1: they executed the civilians, including the co presidents co presidents
Speaker 1: of the Syrian Future Party have in Halaf the Turk
Speaker 1: they didn't stop and there is a no flies on
Speaker 1: until this moment from any side for the Java. The
Speaker 1: sixth question I asked about was how does press access
Speaker 1: to the SDF now differ from how it was during
Speaker 1: the fighting against ISIS. Is it still possible for journalists
Speaker 1: to reach the front line. Actually, if we're gonna talk
Speaker 1: about the operation against ISIS and how it's have been
Speaker 1: globally covered by all the media because at that time
Speaker 1: there were the s d A forces. They provide a
Speaker 1: protection and the coordination for them on the ground and
Speaker 1: and they managed to cover all the operation without any
Speaker 1: you know, like the cases that they for the journalists
Speaker 1: to lose their life or anything like that. While in
Speaker 1: this operation via the Turkish attack there is last ten
Speaker 1: days for journalists lost their lives and other sevenths have
Speaker 1: been injured. Because now even they limited the access. It's
Speaker 1: limited for the media because of the security reason as
Speaker 1: there is a shelling air strike is the slipper sales
Speaker 1: and also there is a fear from the Syrian regime
Speaker 1: present also so there isn't no corporation in a way
Speaker 1: because of that, we can say like this operation can't
Speaker 1: be covered as it have been covered like the operation
Speaker 1: against ISIS. Unfortunately, and the seventh question I asked Hobart was,
Speaker 1: of course what can people outside Rojava do to help?
Speaker 1: I think the people of the outside can help Rojaba,
Speaker 1: and specifically all the feminist movements have to rise up
Speaker 1: for otherwise we as a woman all over the world
Speaker 1: might face the risk to lose the woman revolution. Any
Speaker 1: activity to support Rojaba, like demonstrations, donation by Code Turkish
Speaker 1: Goods and rise the awareness of the Western community about
Speaker 1: what is Rojaba facing currently. It's a genocide, it's an
Speaker 1: ethnic glancing, and it's a demographic demographic changing and everyone
Speaker 1: have to take the responsibilities in order to make some steps.
Speaker 1: And that's we're gonna help Rojaba for sure. Okay, And
Speaker 1: that's all the interview audio. Again, I'm Robert Evans. You
Speaker 1: can find sources for this episode behind the Bastards dot com.
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at I right, okay,
Speaker 1: you can find us on Twitter at at Bastards pod.
Speaker 1: And that's that's it. That's the episode. Go, go do
Speaker 1: something useful.