1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane. 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 1: Never told your production of iHeart Radio and welcome to 3 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: uh stuff, I'll never told you, as Any just said. 4 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 1: And I'm super excited obviously, because you know any, you know, 5 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: specifically when we have guests on that I admire, I 6 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: started getting really really nervous and get a little bit 7 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:36,279 Speaker 1: fan girl ish, So you know, go ahead and put 8 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: that in the preface. Listeners, you know how I get, 9 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:40,480 Speaker 1: So go ahead and be prepared for me to fan 10 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: girl a little bit, because today we have award winning podcaster, Yes, 11 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 1: award winning and amazing activists, human rights activists, Saudia Han. 12 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: Did I say that right? Yes, yes, Okay, I'm doing 13 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: I'm really trying with this because you know, it's a 14 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: new when I have accents or things that you do 15 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: in a different type of language, you really want to 16 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: honor that. But then at the same time, I suck. 17 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: Don't suck at other accents. I really, I really do. 18 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: And you've heard my English accent, You've made fun of 19 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: my English accent. What are you talking about, Well, that's 20 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: when you're kind of goofing around. That's that's a different thing. 21 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: That's exactly what's happening. Um, But yes, welcome to the show, Salia, 22 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: How are you? I am good? Thank you Annie and 23 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: Samantha for inviting me, Thank you for coming. Yes, before 24 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: we begin, if you would let the listeners know who 25 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: you are and kind of just introduce yourself. Hmm. So 26 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: I am rights activist. I am an immigrant Pakistani American, 27 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: intersectional feminist, inclusive feminist, mom, coffee drinker, I love my coffee. 28 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: And I'm also the producer and host of a weekly 29 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: podcast called Immigrantly, where we have conversations around race, identity, 30 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: and the immigrant experience. We just launched another podcast, Got 31 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: Invisible Heat, which focuses on heat crimes committed against minorities. 32 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: And I'm trying to be more intentional about apologizing more 33 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: and connecting with my inner self. That's my twenty twenty 34 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: three resolution. Oh that's a good one. Yeah, I really 35 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: like that. And we were so excited to have you 36 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:34,399 Speaker 1: on and talking because your show aligns so well with 37 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: our shows, Like, of course we should be friends. Of 38 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: course you should be on this show, you should be 39 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: on it regularly. But we'll just move on with that. Um. 40 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: But we are so glad to be able to connect 41 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: with you because the things that you're speaking about your 42 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: podcast and which is been around for a little while, UM, 43 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: really connects to what we talk about when we talk 44 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: about having to have a conversation today about intersexual feminism 45 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: and what it means and why it's so important. And Yeah, 46 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: there's so many things that we could talk about, UM, 47 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: but we do have to narrow it down or we'll 48 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: be on this forever. Like I said, it should be 49 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: a regular thing her, UM. But first, let's talk about 50 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 1: your podcast. Why Why, Why did it heart? How did 51 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: it start? You know, Samantha, this may sound a bit clichee, 52 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: but it started as a reaction to two thousand sixteen elections. 53 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: I was working for a small civil society at the 54 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: time as their policy specialist, and then elections happened and 55 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: there was so much negativity around immigrant experience. And I 56 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: had faced microaggressions because of my Muslim identity in the past, 57 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: but I always, you know, ignored them. I was, it 58 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: doesn't matter. Maybe that's how immigrant experiences are. But then 59 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: the rhetoric was becoming more normalized and that was a 60 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: watershed moment for me, and I felt like I couldn't 61 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: sit on the sidelines anymore, and I felt it was 62 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: time for all of us people of color martialized communities 63 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: to take charge of their own narratives um and not 64 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: let somebody else define them. So Immigrantly was created. Fun fact, 65 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: it was called the Alien Chronicles. I was trying to 66 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: reclaim the term alien. I don't know what was I thinking, 67 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: it's a very toxic term. It cannot be reclaimed. So 68 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: we switched to Immigrantly a year into the podcast, which 69 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: is short and sweet. Can we use the message. It's 70 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: been four years, more than two hundred episodes, amazing guests. 71 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: Now we're learning every single day. Yeah. So I listened 72 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: to the first episode and I had realized you had 73 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: a name change. But it's so on point for I 74 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: think people like yourself and myself, who are people of 75 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 1: color who try to make other people kind of comfortable 76 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: in kind of the mockery of ourselves in a little bit, 77 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 1: And then you realize this is not for me, This 78 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: is to make white people comfortable, and why why am 79 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: I doing this? And you have that more would have like, 80 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: I don't have to do that for people. Hell, yeah, 81 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: let's let's get to what it is. And I think 82 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: that's an amazing conversation. You know that this is the 83 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: beginning of the inner turmoil of loving yourself when you 84 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: unravel that. Oh my gosh, I love that. And I've 85 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 1: learned so much over the last four years and talking 86 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: about first episode, so let me preface it by saying 87 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: that it sounds really raw, and that's when we didn't 88 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: have the kind of production quality or themetic depth that 89 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: we have now. UM So I would suggest to listeners 90 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 1: start from our latest episode because that's more emblematic of 91 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: who we are now. But you're right, in the beginning, 92 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: there was so much learning and I'm not um. I 93 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 1: don't have um education in production or audio production or 94 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 1: any of those sorts of things. And I just did 95 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 1: it because I felt I needed to. It was a 96 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: visceral reaction. And I remember once I was talking to 97 00:05:58,440 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: somebody and they were like, oh, so you had a 98 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: journalist and I'm like, no, I'm an activist. I'm not 99 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: a journalist. And then she said something so profound. She 100 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, but you are doing journalism work. And 101 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 1: I that was not my default setting. I just fell 102 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 1: into it because I had to, right And I love that. 103 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: I love that you talk about how Yeah, at the 104 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: beginning it was rough. This is a different sound, but 105 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 1: you did it without knowing what you were doing. You 106 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 1: did it because you knew that we needed to be 107 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 1: that voice. And I'm really glad nothing held you back 108 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: because that's exactly so true. And so many times that 109 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: that we talked about when we're encouraging our people are 110 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: asking if you try to do a podcast, what do 111 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: you think about this? And it's like, yeah, there is 112 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: room for you, and there is a need for you, 113 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: and that nothing should stop you, even if it feels rough, 114 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: even if you don't think you know what you're doing 115 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: going forward, you will learn as you talk about and 116 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: and and yeah, I'll listen to the latest two. It's 117 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 1: amazing to be able to grow and show what you 118 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: have learned, and to show that you can't start at 119 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: zero and go to this. It's amazing. I love it. Yeah, 120 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: And it requires a lot of great and persistence. It's 121 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: not easy. There's a huge learning curve. It is frustrating. 122 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: At times you just want to give up and you're like, 123 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: why aren't people listening? Where are my people? Where you're 124 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: trying whatever? But then you realize that people will come 125 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: around if you're passionate and if you're true to who 126 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: you are. Authenticity is something that I just held on 127 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: too throughout um, whether it's my accent, my storytelling, my 128 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: immigrant experience, it's out there for everybody to just see 129 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: and if they don't like it, to fluck yes, yes, 130 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: Well I'm curious since you started, have you seen changes 131 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: in podcasting in kind of your listenership that you know, 132 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: for better or worse both things. Just have you seen 133 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: what have you observed in your time in podcasting? Of 134 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: course in terms of listenership and downloads, and a lot 135 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: of podcasters are hung up on downloads, so yeah, those matter, 136 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: and we've seen a jump in that. Of course, It's 137 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: been a great journey thus far. But what I'm really 138 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: proud of is how I started as an individual and 139 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: then a year and I realized that the kind of 140 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: work that I'm doing, I want other people. I want 141 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: a team to work on it and bring their lived experiences. 142 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: And then we created this amazing, incredible team of mostly 143 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,719 Speaker 1: women of color, young women of color who bring their 144 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: lived experiences. So we've really improved into thematic depths, um, 145 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: the kind of conversations that we're having and to be 146 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: honest Annie. In the beginning, I was just shy. I 147 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: couldn't really talk about things that were personal that I 148 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: thought I would be judged on, especially within the American 149 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: social and political discourse, Muslims people from Pakistan are viewed 150 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: a certain way. But now I am just unapologetically who 151 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: I am. Whether it's talking about, you know, my sexual journey, 152 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: or my life as an immygrout or as a mom 153 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: my journey with anxiety um or mental health issues, or 154 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: how I view America and how I navigate two different worlds, 155 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: it's all there. It's all an honest account of who 156 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 1: I am. And that took some time. It wasn't easy 157 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: in the beginning because, as Samantha said, I was still 158 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: trying to please everybody. And I stopped doing that because 159 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 1: the onus is not on me to please others exactly. 160 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: And I love that, and I love that you do 161 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: share so much of your story, but not only that, 162 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 1: you bring people on to share their story and narrative 163 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: things that you really done. I listen to the Michelle episode, 164 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: which hit really close for me. Obviously I'm also adopted, 165 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: so I was like, oh, here's an episode for me, 166 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: and I don't love everything about this, but you do 167 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: give this opportunity every one of your episodes, it seems 168 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: for other people to have their voice be out there 169 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: and tell those stories as well. UM, why do you 170 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: think those those types of experiences, that other stories being 171 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 1: told is so important? Because I feel stories are most 172 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: powerful and tenable when they're told us first person accounts, 173 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 1: and therefore, for us, immigrantly has become a space that 174 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: we hold for others to share their lived experiences. It 175 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: is not my place to share somebody else's lived experiences, 176 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: and that's what we do. And that's what's so core 177 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 1: to immigrantly experience and immigrantly narratives because a lot of times, 178 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: and this goes back to what I have experienced in America, 179 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:07,719 Speaker 1: whether it's in the media or political discourse, how conversations 180 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: around Muslims, especially Muslim women, are framed somebody else is 181 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: telling my story, and I didn't want to do that. 182 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: I wanted to basically tim that narrative one it said 183 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: and say, no, we are going to let other people 184 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: tell their stories. Yeah, I mean, that's That's one of 185 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: the things I find about UM podcasting that can be 186 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: so powerful is when for me like I remember I 187 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: grew up in a small conservative town and having that 188 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: voice of somebody or you're like, oh they like me, 189 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 1: I'm not alone. I feel that and having that connection 190 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: be a podcast and what you're doing is so powerful 191 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: and so important. I can just imagine like listeners all 192 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: over hearing that and needing that and feeling something like 193 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: ease inside because there's so much. There's so much you 194 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: don't realize until you kind of start untangling it, or 195 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: until you hear someone else say it may be. And 196 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: I find that so powerful. So um. I don't know 197 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: if that's kind of been your experience or how you feel, 198 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: but that's that's what I feel like. Listen to a 199 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: good podcast and something like what you're doing is why 200 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:19,199 Speaker 1: it's so impactful and so important. Absolutely. And something else 201 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: I want to say here is that sometimes it's a 202 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: good exercise to just recognize that as humans we have 203 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: limitations and how we understand other people and their stories, 204 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: and to approach them from a place of curiosity and 205 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: ally ship. I feel a lot of times what happens 206 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: is that people think they know other people's stories. So 207 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 1: every time I have a guest, I just look at 208 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: them from this place of complete you know, intrigue and curiosity, 209 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: and I want them to leave the way. And that's 210 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: such a powerful way for me at least because I 211 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: have understood so many things and going back towards Samantha said, 212 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: I think one thing that we do at Immigrantly which 213 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: is really important to me is bring people from different 214 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: cultural ethnic backgrounds, religious backgrounds, sexual orientations. A lot of 215 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: times minority groups live in their siles and they don't connect. 216 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,959 Speaker 1: There is lack of I don't want to say coalition building, 217 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: but collaboration. And with Immigrantly, I didn't want it to 218 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:40,439 Speaker 1: be just stories about Muslims or just stories about Pakistani's 219 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: or South Asians. That was never the intent. And there 220 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: are some incredible podcasts and content writers and creators who 221 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: are doing that, and you know, more power to them. 222 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: But for me, the goal was to just bring different 223 00:13:54,640 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: communities together. That we really dug into your podcast and 224 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,719 Speaker 1: really got you to talk about your expertise. But I 225 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:17,839 Speaker 1: would love to hear some of the background that you've 226 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: been through. Why do you think you know you wanted 227 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: to share the story of your life. Yeah, twenty six 228 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: thing was awful. Like the minute you said, I was like, 229 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: oh god, oh god, Yeah, the memories, Um, there was 230 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: so much that was happening, the talk about the refugees 231 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: and the immigrant sattus and people. Even today, actually, there's 232 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: a lot of things that are happening with our current 233 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: administration that I'm like, why, why are you allowing this 234 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: to occur? Can you tell our listeners a little bit 235 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: about your background and your experiences? Absolutely, And I've shared 236 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: this story on other platforms, so I I'm sorry listeners 237 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: if you already, but I shared this story because this 238 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: speaks to who I am now. So, my ad um 239 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: came to the US in the seventies as a young 240 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: engineer for work, and he instantly fell in love with 241 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: the country. He just loved the idea of American dream 242 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: and he thought it was a meritocracy, which I don't 243 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: think it is, um, but that was my father's point 244 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: of view. But then he had to go back after 245 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: a couple of years um to fulfill some familiar responsibilities. 246 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: And by then he had a green card, which at 247 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: that time was probably easy to get, especially for professionals. 248 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: And obviously my my dad had a privileged life in 249 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: the US, so his experiences were obviously different. From a 250 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: lot of immigrants. He went back and he was realized 251 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: these stories about America, and I felt as a child 252 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: um in the eighties and nineties, I felt as if 253 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: I connected to people. And when I came in early 254 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: two thousand's on my own adventure, it was in fact 255 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: out of want then need. We just wanted to My 256 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: husband and I, who had just gotten married, wanted to 257 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: experience the American life. He got into this great program 258 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: um in Cambridge at M I T and we came 259 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: to the US. But this was around nine eleven and 260 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: America had become a lot more paranoid and angry and resentful, 261 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: especially towards people like me, And that to me was shocking, 262 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: although we expected, yet shocking because I had heard stories 263 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: that was so different. Initially, I didn't pay attention because 264 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: I thought we'd go back. It was just like a 265 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: year two years. And I used to watch Jerry Springers. 266 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: So for all gen Z people out there, they probably 267 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: even don't know what that is. But I used to 268 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: watch that in early two thousand's and consume it, and 269 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: I thought, you know, that's how all Americans behaved. Not true. 270 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: But anyways, as years went by and we settled down 271 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: and my kids were born. The stakes were getting higher. Right. 272 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,959 Speaker 1: I was more invested in the American idea of equality 273 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 1: and justice. And I won't say practically that is the case, 274 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: but the idea, the idea that the experiment, the social 275 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: experiment that America is. And I started to notice more 276 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: microaggressions around me. Right, so things that go back to 277 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: where you came from, or were you allowed to go 278 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: to college in Pakistan, and a lot of interesting stories 279 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: and questions. People would not understand my accent, my name. 280 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 1: I remember my daughter was in sixth grade and she 281 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: was called um the queen of Taliban. Now this is 282 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: the kid born and raised in America, doesn't know any 283 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: place else, and she was in sixth grade, she was 284 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: more eleven. And it was so shocking and disheartening. And 285 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: I started working for human rights organizations, went to grad school, 286 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 1: did my masters and human rights. Wanted to dedicate my 287 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: life to realization of rights internationally. I was focused more 288 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 1: on that. But then two thousand sixteen elections, as I said, happened, 289 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: and I was like, why am I focused globally? Why 290 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: am I doing that? There is so much to learn 291 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: and there is so much to unlearn in America, and 292 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: that's when that paradigm shift happened for me. Mm hmm. Yeah. 293 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 1: I can't imagine for your daughter that feeling of being 294 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: outsider when this is all you know and you're having 295 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: to explain yourself when you're like I experienced similar things 296 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 1: like you. I've been here the whole time. I don't 297 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: understand why you're mothering me and why therefore we have 298 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: to have these lines. But it's so heartbreaking, I'm sure 299 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: as a mother to see that and try to explain 300 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: that to your child, especially for a child, as you said, Samantha. 301 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 1: For me, I consider myself an outside and an inside it. 302 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: I don't fully think I am American or Pakistani anymore. 303 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 1: I'm somewhere in the middle. But for my daughter to 304 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: feel that way, or to be made to feel that way, 305 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: it's just cruel. Sorry, I have to sit in those 306 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 1: moments of like you know, you have a moment of 307 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: like trying to untangle your own feelings in that, because 308 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: there's something so personal for me especially, and I'm sorry 309 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: for you when you have that moment of seeing that, 310 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 1: remembering kind of what that is, and then coming back 311 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: to but this is another child and you wish you 312 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: could protect all children from this type of nonsense and ignorance, 313 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: but you know it's gonna be a forever thing, so 314 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: you have to navigate how to speak about this is 315 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 1: not the only time. I don't want to destroy your 316 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 1: goodness and your love and your hope for the future either, 317 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: But like there's just a moment of like, how do 318 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: I do this not too cynically? Absolutely, and try to 319 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 1: break it down. But of course that's kind of what 320 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: you're trying to do with this podcast. And I love this, 321 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: and I love that you break down the experiences of 322 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 1: individuals as well as bringing in your perspective in it. 323 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: And yeah, you're growing your team. I know that your 324 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: team is quite young, so I love seeing that you 325 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 1: are mentoring your staff to do this for the next 326 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: generations to come. That's such a wonderful thing to see. 327 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 1: And they are mentoring me. We have such must conversations, 328 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 1: right sometimes, as I said, with my kids and with 329 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 1: this team, I'm like, tell me how do we use TikTok? Right? 330 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: I'm really going through that right now. I also getting 331 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,199 Speaker 1: there who just graduated them from college and they're like, 332 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 1: we're gonna do a TikTok for you, and I was like, 333 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: what we're doing? What? So, yeah, I've ordered them. I said, 334 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 1: just you know, send me guidelines or whatever. I would 335 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 1: follow them because when I feed my own TikTok videos again, 336 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: they are just so bad and as my kids would 337 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: call it, so cringe e um. But yeah, I'm learning 338 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:13,679 Speaker 1: so much from them. There there unabashed honesty. Honestly, this 339 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 1: generation doesn't give a They don't care. They are they are, 340 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: and they look at things as a collective endeavor. For them, 341 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:27,360 Speaker 1: it's all about how our actions are impacting others. Right. 342 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 1: They really have come to a whole different understanding and 343 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: I don't love that, um. And I also love that 344 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 1: you also make sure that in your podcast, uh, that 345 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: you are bringing diverse voices, which is what you are 346 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 1: talked about before. You don't want to just tell one 347 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: side of the story. You want to tell all the 348 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: sides of the story, which is so important. And we've 349 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: been kind of going back and forth from the beginning 350 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: of the show, which was two Other House, which has 351 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: actually been a part of the show from jump, even 352 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 1: though she wasn't the host. So she's she's old school, 353 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: but like ten eleven years ago when it originated to today, 354 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 1: the world is vastly changed so quickly, and one of 355 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 1: the things that we've talked about keeping it and making 356 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 1: sure that we are having this conversation of diversity and 357 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: that not only our show is changing that, but we're 358 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: making sure that others who ask about the podcasting world 359 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: that we're emphasizing the need for diversity. Do you see 360 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: since I know you've started in twenty sixteen, do you 361 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: see a big change? Have you seen the diversity hopefully 362 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,919 Speaker 1: grow or do you think it's gotten backwards? So the 363 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: podcast started in twenty eighteen, and of twenty eighteen almost 364 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 1: beginning of the elections obviously were a huge impetus, but 365 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: I waited at least a couple of years before I could, 366 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: you know, do it? In terms of diversity, I feel 367 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 1: like I am almost reluctant to use that word often 368 00:22:53,520 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: because I feel diversity can be misconstrued or sometimes be 369 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: pleer formative. So how do we define diversity right? What 370 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: does it mean? Are we holding space for people to 371 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: use their voices or to critique or to are we 372 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 1: dismantling systems or are we just using diversity as a 373 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: token or to weaponize it to say, you know what, 374 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,959 Speaker 1: we've done what we're supposed to do and it's okay. 375 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: So diversity can be a tricky term, but if it 376 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 1: is done in a proper, well intentioned, well executed way, 377 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,919 Speaker 1: not even just well intentioned. I'm sure there are a 378 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,479 Speaker 1: lot of well meaning people trying to do diversity and 379 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,120 Speaker 1: they still mess it up. Um. I think it can 380 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,159 Speaker 1: be a very powerful tool, and we have come a 381 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: long way, and I think a lot of people of 382 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 1: color and diverse communities are demanding the kind of diversity 383 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: that will dismantle systems of oppression, which wasn't happening before. 384 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 1: People were content with the kind of diversity that was 385 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: fed to them. And that's a huge change. In the 386 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 1: last at least four or five years. Through activism, advocacy, 387 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: content creation, we are seeing a lot of that, right. Yeah, 388 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: I like what you just said, like the whole performative, 389 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,919 Speaker 1: because it does become a trendy word, um, instead of 390 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: an action. And yeah, I think that's right on when 391 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: we talk about it, because we see that too often 392 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: that when we're saying we want diversity, Yes we will 393 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,199 Speaker 1: bring in marginalized communities, but as long as you fulfill 394 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: our narrative. But we're gonna say, at least we have 395 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: that person, right, look, which is also that tokenism that 396 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: we often see. They make us comfortable enough to bring 397 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 1: it in because they're going to say what we want 398 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 1: them to say, which is that hierarchy of white supremacy 399 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: that often happens and dismantles within within the marginalized communities. 400 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: That becomes a stumbling block for within the marginalized community 401 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,239 Speaker 1: in itself, and we see that so often. It's so 402 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: tragic to me to see that when you see that 403 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: only self loathing within the community that they wish they 404 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: were white, which that was my childhood. That was my 405 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,919 Speaker 1: childhood until like I was like, wait, this is not 406 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: going to ever work. What is this, Samantha. I love, love, 407 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: love the term that you just use self loathing. I 408 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: see that if all marginalized communities, it's like, okay, let's 409 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: change because America is not accepting us. There must be 410 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:36,160 Speaker 1: something wrong with us. Right, So your empowerment, your success, 411 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: your emancipation, becomes a function of your proximity to whiteness, right, 412 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: And I see that around me, and I'm sure at 413 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 1: one point I was doing the same. We all do it. 414 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 1: To some extent, but to recognize that we do it 415 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 1: and we self flows and we want to change because 416 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: we are not accepted as we are and who we 417 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: are is a profound learning experience, right, UM. And I 418 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 1: hope more people can just sit with that thought and say, 419 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 1: you know what, that's true. I do that. Whether you 420 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: course correct or not, that's your journey. Nobody can tell 421 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: you when to but recognizing is the first step, right. 422 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: I absolutely agree with that, UM. And speaking of because 423 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: I'm going to jump into a little bit outside of 424 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: the podcast, because I have read a few of your 425 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 1: articles that you've written. I love them, UM, And one 426 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: of them you wrote, we need to replace white feminism 427 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 1: with inclusive feminism, and you know, of course I spoke 428 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 1: to us. We were like, oh yeah, we have to 429 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: jump on on this, um, and it was so needed. 430 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: But in your article you talk about the need to 431 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: hold white feminism accountable, and yeah, that's something we talked 432 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: about often and it's made people uncomfortable. We made a 433 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: lot of people and comfortable and that's it should, um, 434 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: And it should on every level. And as we've changed 435 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,719 Speaker 1: throughout the years, and we've had so many conversations on 436 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,400 Speaker 1: why intersectionality has to be the core of the feminist 437 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: idea for it to make change, because we've seen feminism. 438 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: It's been around, but it's not made change. It's made 439 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: some changes, but not full change. And you reference the 440 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,479 Speaker 1: term and you said it earlier inclusive feminism, But can 441 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,640 Speaker 1: you talk about that for a minute. So I came 442 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: up with the term. I am a huge fan of 443 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: intersectional feminism. I've used it in the past, but sometimes 444 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: I find it to be too academic for me, and 445 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: I thought, what other would could I use? That's more 446 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: I don't want to see mainstream but easy to use 447 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: and navigate, And I thought, why not make it simple 448 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:54,439 Speaker 1: or simpler and say inclusive feminism? So I basically started 449 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 1: using this term after my article, and I tried to 450 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: correct myself and use it more. Is I really truly 451 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 1: believe in it in the context of feminism and white feminism. 452 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,639 Speaker 1: I'm sure there are a lot of amazing white feminists 453 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 1: out there, But what I found problematic is how prescriptive 454 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: white feminism is. Right. I don't think it meets people 455 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: where they are in their empowerment journey. Right, So wherever 456 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 1: I am in my empowerment journey, as a Muslim woman 457 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: of color, as somebody off Pakistani descent, meet me there, 458 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: don't impose your idea of how empowerment, emancipation, freedom, equality 459 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: should look like for me, because my identity has so 460 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: many other dimensions and lived experiences that combine that intersect 461 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: and make it more complex for me to be who 462 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: I am in the ways you want me to be. 463 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: And that's why I find white feminism problematic at times. Absolutely. Yeah, 464 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: I think that's something that we've often talked about. We 465 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: got a course correction at the very beginning when the 466 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter occurred and uh as well as the 467 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: death of George Floyd. We all had this conversation and 468 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: we started with a book that was recommended to me 469 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: because I have a white family who is very conservative 470 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 1: and so we're very at the opposite spectrums. Um that 471 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: has kind of heard our relationship. And the book was 472 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: White Fragility, but it was written by a white woman, 473 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: and we got we got called out real quickly. They're like, hey, 474 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: this is probably not the book that you should and 475 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: and an understanding this book is for white people. We 476 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: did riot it that was written for white people, and 477 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 1: that was kind of our thought process but yeah, as 478 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: a bigger platform, we should be uplifting the black women 479 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: who have already written and written and written so many 480 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: books and so many articles for us to lean on. 481 00:29:58,560 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: And like we had to kind of come back and 482 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: correct ourselves, like you are absolutely should we should we 483 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: do this and and understanding we have to go to 484 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: the bottom of or to the beginning of those who's 485 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 1: already been working on this narratives and not allow for 486 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: the other two are maybe cashing in. I don't think 487 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: that was the intention, but it kind of feels like 488 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:23,719 Speaker 1: could be cashing in absolutely, And by promoting those narratives 489 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: and internalizing them, manifesting those narratives, we are saying that 490 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: other people from different communities, ethnic cultural backgrounds, they have agency, 491 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: they have voice. What they don't have is the platform. 492 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: What they don't have is other people holding spaces for them. 493 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: And that's where I find it extremely problematic when I'm 494 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: being taught how to live my life by somebody who's 495 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: never lived my life. Right. So, in the article I 496 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: talked about how white feminism can be problematic when it's 497 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: imposed on people in countries like Pakistani, on Iraq, Juanistan, 498 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: I talked about a lot of white feminists that I 499 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: disagree with. But there's something else. And I was thinking 500 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: about this before the interview because you guys mentioned you'll 501 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: talk about feminism in general. And something that really struck 502 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 1: me in ways that I never thought it would was 503 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: this incident that happened in in Central Park in New York. 504 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 1: Remember Amy Cooper who was walking her dog and she 505 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: called police on this black birdwatcher who was just there 506 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: and she didn't have her dog on the leash, and 507 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: he just pointed out that your dog is not on leash. 508 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: And that incident is quintessentially how sometimes white liberal women 509 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: use their power right to harm other communities. She knew 510 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: exactly what she was doing by calling police on Christian Cooper. 511 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: She knew exactly to repercussions and then to have the 512 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: audacity to say I'm not racist. Really, that's messed up. 513 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: She knew the power her tears would have, right, which 514 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 1: we're seeing constantly and now and make a joke about 515 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: Cairns and Karens are very offended by that. Actual people 516 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: name Karen's. Apologies to them, But that's kind of where 517 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: that narrative came in because we had to like it again, 518 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: I think that even though that was offensive to a point, 519 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: we also had to make it a joke because it's 520 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: too much of a reality that is white women tears. 521 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: It's dangerous. It is dangerous for for so many people 522 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: of color, specifically black men men of color, and we 523 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: we have to have that conversation of like, why it 524 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: is it there? Now? We found something for you to 525 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: be offended by, but we had to uh pull it 526 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: down a bit, take the seriousness out of it. Again, 527 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: not we, but like in general marginalised communities, is that 528 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: same story of trying to kind of make it comfortable 529 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: and make it almost normalized, which is also very dangerous 530 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: in that conversation. Um, yeah, and I love the article 531 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: in itself that you are so very blunt, I know, 532 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 1: and calling it out. I love that. That's us, that's us. 533 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: We asked a hundred percent stand on that because it 534 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: needs to happen, and we have to be able to 535 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: have that conversation and being able to call others out 536 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: and ourselves out when it happens. I mean, all of 537 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 1: us have been racist at times. I've said this in 538 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: the past. If if I think I've never demonstrated some 539 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: racist views, whether consciously or subconsciously, I don't even believe 540 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: in that subconscious idea of it. But still approximation to whiteness, 541 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 1: our willingness to approximate to whiteness also makes you racist 542 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: in ways that you don't even realize. So yes, of 543 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: course South Aginese stage in communities are racist in so 544 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: many ways. At the very least, they suffer from problems 545 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: like colorism, and again calling it out and saying, okay, 546 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: this is bad, but what we're doing is also bad. 547 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: And we may say it's the result of colonialism and 548 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: it's our colonial hangover or whatever it may be. But 549 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 1: if it is harming other communities, and if we are 550 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 1: complicit in perpetuating those harmful paradigms, then we need to 551 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:35,879 Speaker 1: be accountable. Whether we were at the you know, at 552 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:40,760 Speaker 1: the outset or not, we should be held accountable as well. Yes, 553 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: A Smith had said, this show has been around a 554 00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 1: long time and the conversation has shifted so much, and um, 555 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,320 Speaker 1: as we are learning and as we are like trying 556 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: to correct um and be better all the time, be 557 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 1: better and more inclusive. We've also we have our listeners 558 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: as well. We've come with this journey with us who 559 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,439 Speaker 1: have pointed these things out who have done the work 560 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: or like like sent us like, oh I wrote this article, 561 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 1: like which is amazing, that's so cool listeners that you 562 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: do that. But we also get, um some hate, like 563 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: you know, we get we get some backlash from people 564 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: who I'm sure of like never literally never listened, but 565 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: from some people who have as well. And um, I'm 566 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: just curious if you've if that's something you've experienced, and 567 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: if so, how do you deal with it? And you honestly, 568 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,799 Speaker 1: I don't be attention to one. I just I think 569 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,280 Speaker 1: I'm just I guess I'm scared to even be attention 570 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: because I feel if I did, then it would prevent 571 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 1: me from being myself. And I'm I've just embarked on 572 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: this journey after a long time, and I don't want 573 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: to stop. So I am just going to you know, 574 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: block those noises. And if people think that I'm being 575 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 1: ungrateful or if I don't understand something or you know, again, 576 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: go back to where you came from. Good for them, 577 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: You're turned you do the same you came from. Last 578 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: I checked Native American? Are you yes? I love that. Yeah, 579 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,879 Speaker 1: that's definitely something that we're trying to I'm trying any 580 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 1: any does that's a little better. I'm a little newer 581 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,720 Speaker 1: to the thing and trying to navigate what it looks 582 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 1: like to be a public voice. And then also having 583 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 1: people who disagree or and just don't like you, uh, 584 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 1: just don't like the way I speak. I get that 585 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 1: all often, um, which is what it is, and you 586 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 1: kind of just want to be like, then don't listen. 587 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: It's not it's not that hard. Actually, this is not 588 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: like the radio. You actually could just off and find 589 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 1: something else exactly. If you're making this choice, if you're 590 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 1: being intentional about it, then be open to what we 591 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: have to say. Look, I have an accent, and I 592 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: mess up my v's and w's. And I'm okay with 593 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: that because I speak five languages, right, it's fine, and 594 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: I have a way more knowledge than you. But it's interesting. 595 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 1: I do mess up my v's and w's. I don't 596 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 1: know why I do that. Yeah, I do l and 597 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,240 Speaker 1: rs a little bit. And you know, it's funny because 598 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: my dad, he's very well worst and all, and growing 599 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: up he would I would mess up my v's and w's, 600 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: and I remember my dad always pointed it out, but 601 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 1: he never told me what to do with it. It's 602 00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: like pointing it out. Do you think I don't say 603 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 1: it correctly? Then tell me how to say it. Then 604 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 1: what's the correct way? What's the correct way? Don't that 605 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: to your kids, you know? And I love that that 606 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 1: You've talked about this a couple of times, and I 607 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,280 Speaker 1: know you've talked about it on your show, but about um, 608 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: your accident, about people you whether it's they hold a 609 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 1: bias against you because of your accident or they feel 610 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 1: a certain type of way um, and I think you 611 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 1: are so you're one of the few. And I love 612 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,840 Speaker 1: it actually talk actually talks out loud about it and 613 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,319 Speaker 1: being proud of the fact that, yeah, this is not 614 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,839 Speaker 1: my native tongue, but I can speak it fluently, so 615 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 1: what you know, It's interesting. It's interesting because I never, 616 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: as far as I can recall, I was never conscious 617 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,320 Speaker 1: of my accent. And this may be me being naive 618 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,880 Speaker 1: or whatever, but other people would point out things like, oh, 619 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: you know, you're starting a podcast, which is a very 620 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: you know, it's an audio medium. Do you think people 621 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 1: will be okay with your accent? And I was like, well, 622 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,319 Speaker 1: I love my accent and if they don't, then as 623 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 1: you said, don't listen. But at the end of the day, 624 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: when I came to the US and over the years, 625 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: I realized how traumatic it can be for people who 626 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:23,799 Speaker 1: have accent. They are unable to speak, they are conscious 627 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:28,360 Speaker 1: of how they interact with others. And I feel so 628 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 1: sad that we would make other people feel that way 629 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 1: just because English is not their native language. What the 630 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:46,440 Speaker 1: guys don't do it? M yeah, seriously, like the way 631 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:50,880 Speaker 1: people on the internet that they can just well, I 632 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 1: mean in real life as well, but in this particular 633 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,400 Speaker 1: conversation about podcasting, there's so much judgment around women's voices 634 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 1: and then any intersection around that, it's bigger, bigger, and 635 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 1: I just like, stop, it's bast legs. It's just like 636 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 1: so easy. You don't have to even write. Why are 637 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 1: you writing? Like there's no just go on, Like I 638 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,319 Speaker 1: have many things that I don't like, many of people 639 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,759 Speaker 1: that I'm thinking I probably won't get along with them, 640 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,280 Speaker 1: but I don't have to write about it. That's such 641 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 1: a loss of energy. Why would you want to put 642 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:29,759 Speaker 1: that energy out? Why something like to be nasty? That's 643 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 1: there just like that, um, And it's sad because they 644 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 1: lose so much they lose out on so much when 645 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 1: you're being negative, right right, Yes, it is true, and 646 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:45,279 Speaker 1: that's something like um speaking of I love what you 647 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 1: said earlier about like the younger generation like giving no 648 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 1: and I love that we're seeing more and more marginalized 649 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 1: people when of color, especially come into the podcasting space, 650 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 1: which for so long has been predominantly white, predominantly man. 651 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 1: It is changing. It's very slow, but it is changing. 652 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,759 Speaker 1: That makes me very very happy. And I when people 653 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,479 Speaker 1: used to ask me, because I've been podcasting for ten years, 654 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 1: like what advice I would give, I used to kind 655 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 1: of hesitate because I'd be like, well, you're gonna people 656 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:17,040 Speaker 1: are gonna be mean to you. Like I want to 657 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 1: set the reality of it and I want you to 658 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 1: know it, and I want you to take care of 659 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 1: your mental health. And I think that's a thing that 660 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,319 Speaker 1: we have to tell people. But I like that now 661 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,839 Speaker 1: it seems like you said, like you just don't listen, 662 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:30,839 Speaker 1: you like, tune out that noise. I wish we didn't 663 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 1: even have to do that, but I do like that 664 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 1: that's happening, seeing this space expand to include these such 665 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:42,840 Speaker 1: necessary voices and life experiences. But for you, if you 666 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 1: had to give advice to people listening who are like, oh, 667 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:47,960 Speaker 1: maybe I have I have a good story to tell, 668 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 1: I haven't heard it, or I haven't heard it in 669 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 1: this way. What advice would you give? I would say, first, 670 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,920 Speaker 1: ask yourself, why do you want to launch it? I 671 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,719 Speaker 1: think why is the most important thing for me. It 672 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,000 Speaker 1: was clear why I wanted to. And when we know 673 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,399 Speaker 1: the why, then we are more committed because then it's 674 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,360 Speaker 1: not like, oh, you you know everybody is doing it, 675 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 1: so I'm doing it. That's one. Be persistent. It's unfortunate. 676 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,600 Speaker 1: But the more content you produce, the more people will 677 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,160 Speaker 1: get to know your work and they will come back. 678 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 1: And there are going to be moments of frustration and 679 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:30,399 Speaker 1: anger and anxiety and vulnerability. Accept them, internalize them. They 680 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,839 Speaker 1: will fuel you. It's okay, you know, just I think 681 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,879 Speaker 1: in America, something that really bothers me is that we 682 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:43,520 Speaker 1: don't value vulnerability. We don't value you know, being scared. 683 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,720 Speaker 1: It's somehow conflated with weakness, and all of that is good. 684 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,239 Speaker 1: Vulnerability is good. Good to do that. And I will 685 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,239 Speaker 1: also say something to listeners although and you didn't ask 686 00:42:56,280 --> 00:43:01,400 Speaker 1: me to, but I will still U support different voices 687 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,280 Speaker 1: it's a difficult medium. There are more than two million 688 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,320 Speaker 1: podcasts out there, and some people are privileged. I consider 689 00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,279 Speaker 1: myself to be privileged to be able to sustain it 690 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,279 Speaker 1: for so long being an independent podcasters. A lot of 691 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:21,000 Speaker 1: people do an amazing job creating content, but they can't 692 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,640 Speaker 1: sustain it, and if they can't sustain it, you won't 693 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:29,359 Speaker 1: hear from them, and that is key and so crucial 694 00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 1: to making sure that these voices continue within this ecosystem 695 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 1: um Otherwise people give up. Yeah, that's great advice, because 696 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,520 Speaker 1: when people give up, we lose those stories and they're 697 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:49,040 Speaker 1: exactly yeah. Yeah, well, thank you, thank you, Thank you 698 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,680 Speaker 1: for sharing that. Before we wrap up, is there anything 699 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 1: else you want to say? We'll give you the whole 700 00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:55,799 Speaker 1: spotlight so you can shout out where listeners can find 701 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,760 Speaker 1: you and everything. But thank you for giving me this space. 702 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,799 Speaker 1: Thank you for this wonderful conversation. I felt as if 703 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,720 Speaker 1: I was talking to do friends that I just met, 704 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,759 Speaker 1: And I'm so glad that Alexandra was able to connect us. 705 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:16,000 Speaker 1: She is so nice and sweet and I'm glad that 706 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:19,640 Speaker 1: I know her. And to my awesome team and everybody 707 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 1: who listened, and to everyone who listens to Annie and 708 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:29,880 Speaker 1: Samantha's podcast. Um yeah, yeah, yeah, shout out to Alexandra. 709 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,000 Speaker 1: She is doing her thing, making sure those podcasts are 710 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,200 Speaker 1: getting out and that these voices are being her is 711 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:41,800 Speaker 1: a great job, Alexandra. Yes, yes, it's It's so important 712 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,839 Speaker 1: to recognize the people behind who are making this all 713 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:49,160 Speaker 1: this happen that we're hearing. Um, so I do love that. 714 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,480 Speaker 1: I love that. Um, I love that you said we 715 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,520 Speaker 1: often are trying to like make friends on this show. 716 00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:57,279 Speaker 1: It's sort of a low key thing. That was the 717 00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 1: whole my background and getting onto the podcasts, Like I 718 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:02,160 Speaker 1: just want to make coold friends. So this is how 719 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,880 Speaker 1: I'm gonna make friends. Were I'm we're friends. Were just 720 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,440 Speaker 1: saying we're friends now and we would love to have 721 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,480 Speaker 1: you back, because because we did have to also estimate 722 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:13,200 Speaker 1: that side, we had to really like narrow it down. 723 00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,160 Speaker 1: There were just so many topics we could have discussed, 724 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,320 Speaker 1: Like you, I wanted to talk about that White Savior article. 725 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,879 Speaker 1: I want to talk about I just want all of them. 726 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:25,319 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that would be so much fun. We could 727 00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:29,640 Speaker 1: have like WhatsApp group chat or something and then all 728 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,279 Speaker 1: of these topics and then we're like come back on 729 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:34,600 Speaker 1: so we want to have a discussion on it. Yeah, 730 00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to do that. This is gonna happen. Awesome. 731 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,160 Speaker 1: I love it well. In the meantime, where can the 732 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:49,839 Speaker 1: listeners find you on every streaming platform and um so immigrantly. 733 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:54,520 Speaker 1: Instagram handle is at immigrantly pot our, Twitter is at 734 00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:59,279 Speaker 1: immigrantly underscore pod and my Twitter handle is at s 735 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:04,640 Speaker 1: w K ham k h a M. Yeah again, thank 736 00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:06,960 Speaker 1: you so much for having me and to all the 737 00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:11,400 Speaker 1: listeners while listening, Yes, thank you so much for coming on. 738 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,319 Speaker 1: It was a delight and we can't wait to have 739 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,280 Speaker 1: you back. And listeners go go check out and support immigrantly. 740 00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:21,800 Speaker 1: If you don't already and you can find us, you 741 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:23,400 Speaker 1: can email us at stuff with your Mom, stuff at 742 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 1: I hurt meia dot com. You can find us on 743 00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,240 Speaker 1: Twitter at most of podcast or on Instagram at stuff 744 00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:30,719 Speaker 1: I Never Told You and TikTok as well New TikTok Whoo. 745 00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,360 Speaker 1: Thanks it's always super super producer, Christina, Thank you Christina, 746 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:37,440 Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening Stuff I'll Never tell 747 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:39,160 Speaker 1: these protection of I High Radio. For more podcasts for 748 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:40,680 Speaker 1: my heart Radio, you can check out The High Radio, 749 00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,000 Speaker 1: ap Apple podcast or redul listen to favorite shows,