1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: And today we're finally getting around to it. We wanted 5 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: to talk about a few of the ig Nobel Prize 6 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: winners from this year. Yes, we're a little late. The 7 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: awards ceremony was in September of this year and we're 8 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: just now getting to it. But you know, a lot 9 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: of things are happening around the September October. It's a 10 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: busy time for us. Yeah. I think we've covered the 11 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: ig Nobels every year since we started covering them, and 12 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: I'm not sure when that year was. Maybe it was 13 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: like two thousand seven, two eight or something. I don't know, 14 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 1: it's pretty early on. Um, we almost never cover them 15 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: right away because, like you said, there's there's generally a 16 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: lot going on. The awards usually come out during September 17 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: or very early October, and so we're either wrapped up 18 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: in Halloween stuff I then, or we're getting ready to 19 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: do Halloween stuff or something like that. Uh, So we 20 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: generally come in like late November or part of sometime 21 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: in November or in this case, very early December. But 22 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: I guess it's better late than never. And uh, I 23 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: guess one of the cool things about this is is 24 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: we kind of come in after the initial coverage and 25 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: chew on them a bit more. So, if you're waiting 26 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: on these episodes and you and you're inclined to complain, 27 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: just don't stop. But if you're not familiar, the ig 28 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,479 Speaker 1: no Bells are a series of awards given out once 29 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: a year by a scientific humor journal called the Annals 30 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: of Improbable Research that's been edited for many years now 31 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: by somebody named Mark Abraham's and the stated purpose of 32 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: this of these awards is to quote honor achievements that 33 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: first make people laugh and then make them think. So 34 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: to give you an idea if if you haven't heard 35 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: one of these episodes before and you've never read about 36 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: the ig Nobels. Among the awards we covered last or 37 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: there was a prize in the material science category for 38 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: research into whether you could make a knife blade out 39 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: of frozen feces. What was the verdict on that? I 40 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: think it was no right that no matter how hard 41 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 1: you freeze them, they just don't really cut. I believe 42 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: so um, you know, it reminds me of Yeah. I 43 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: think they think that the research ended up saying, yeah, 44 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: like you, no matter how hard it gets, uh, you're 45 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: still gonna have a certain amount of melting that's going 46 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: to take place, right because the friction on the sharp 47 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:31,639 Speaker 1: end will will pretty quickly wear it away and then 48 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: it's then it's blunt. Yeah, better to make it like 49 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: a frozen poop warhammer, I think, so that could shatter. 50 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: I don't know, we'll look into that in the future. Um, 51 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: but then let's see what was One of the other 52 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: ones we did last year was there was a prize 53 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 1: in the acoustics category for a study that made alligators 54 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: huff helium to see if it made their voices higher pitched. 55 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: I remember that. Yeah. So occasionally the papers that get 56 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:02,239 Speaker 1: selected for these prizes are I think originally themselves intended 57 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 1: to be satirical or funny. One example like that that 58 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: comes to mind is, uh, there was a rayology study 59 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: one year about whether cats should be considered a solid 60 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: or a liquid. That that was a good one, but 61 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: clearly there was a good bit of jokiness about the 62 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: paper itself most of the time. Actually, this the research 63 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: covered in in these prizes, is it's just straightforward research. 64 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: They're they're straightforward experiments published in real scientific journals that 65 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: happened to have some weirdly hilarious methodology or finding. Yeah. 66 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: Either you know, it varies, but you know, sometimes it's 67 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: it's just a particular experiment that is hilarious or giggle inducing. Um. 68 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 1: Other times it's just the minutia of it, you know, 69 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: one of those kind of a shrimp on a treadmill 70 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: situation where it may it's still important work. It's all 71 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: part of the general um, you know, expansion of scientific 72 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: knowledge of of the universe, but it just in an 73 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: area that we might not think about. Or sometimes it's 74 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: just an important study that involves like pooper vomit or something, 75 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: and therefore just by ver orteese or something, you know, 76 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: just by virtue of the subject, kissing, yeah, is inherently funny. Now, 77 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 1: in these episodes we're doing on on the Igno Bells, 78 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 1: we're just going to pick out a few of the 79 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: prizes to highlight because there was something about them that 80 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: we wanted to talk about. We're not gonna have a 81 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: chance to cover all of the winners, but if you 82 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 1: want to read about those. You can go to the 83 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: Annals of Improbable Research website at Improbable dot com and 84 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: you can see the full list of the awards and 85 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: click on links to to read about them. I mean, 86 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: and not only the most recent awards, but you can 87 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: go back through the entire history of the Igno Bells 88 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: and just and explore them all. It's a very simple, 89 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: easy to use website. Well, I am ready to get 90 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 1: started if you are, Uh, let's do it, okay, Well, 91 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: the first area I wanted to get into was actually 92 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: this will be a pair of thematically linked prizes from this. 93 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: The first is the Physics Prize, which went to Alessandro Corbetta, 94 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: Jasper Mayu, Sen Chung Min Lee, Roberto Benzi, and Federico 95 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: Tashi quote for conducting experiments to learn why pedestrians do 96 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 1: not constantly collide with other pedestrians. And then the second 97 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: here is the Kinetics Prize, which went to his Sashimurakami, 98 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:30,919 Speaker 1: Claudio Feliciani, Utah Nishi Yama, and katsu Hero Nishi Nari. 99 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: And this is quote for conducting experiments to learn why 100 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: pedestrians do sometimes collide with other pedestrians. Uh, Rob, have 101 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: you ever had a really memorable, just bodily head on 102 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: with somebody. I was trying to remember if I had, 103 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: and I could not bring any instances to mind. Though 104 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: I have run into plenty of things in my life. 105 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: I run into tree branches and sliding glass doors, but 106 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: I can't really think of any head ons with humans 107 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: except maybe while playing soccer. Yeah, thinking back, yes, certainly, 108 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: I there have been more than a few low hanging 109 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: branches that have have clipped the top of my head 110 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: or tried to stab me in the eye, that sort 111 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: of thing. But in terms of of running into people, 112 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: um even in crowded cities, and like I was just 113 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: in um in New Orleans, and you know, those are 114 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: some crowded streets at times, and those are also some 115 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: drunken streets at times. You know they're folks wandering around 116 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 1: in various states of inebriation, and yet you don't see 117 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 1: people just colliding with each other. I feel like I've 118 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: had I can think maybe to some close calls in 119 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: the past where you have that moment where you almost 120 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: run into somebody and you both kind of acknowledge it 121 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: and it's a little bit awkward, but still it's not 122 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: like you see. I guess in a lot of like 123 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: comedy films where people just plow into each other, knock 124 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: their groceries down, and then they have a romantic moment 125 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: as they pick up each other's groceries, that sort of thing. Yes, 126 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: why is it romantic comedies where people plow into each other? 127 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: I guess there's something metaphorical about that, about you know, 128 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: the oh you came into my life like a like 129 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: a large, massive meat slamming me in the face. Yeah. 130 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: Because Yeah, in general, you don't see like fights breaking 131 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: out because people ran into each other, or at least 132 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever seen that occur. I mean 133 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: it probably has occurred, but not with the regularity you 134 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: might expect, given just how intense uh streets and sidewalks 135 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: are at times. Yeah, and I think this is something 136 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: we should keep in mind as we discussed this research. 137 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: It's interesting how rare collisions are given how often huge 138 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: masses of people are just criss crossing with each other 139 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: all day. So to actually reference the two papers here, 140 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: the first one was Corbetta at all. This was in 141 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: Physical Review E in eighteen and it was called Physics 142 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: based Modeling and Data Representation of pair wise interactions among pedestrians. 143 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,559 Speaker 1: And then the second paper the Kinetics Prize was called 144 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: Mutual anticipation can contribute to self organization and human crowds. 145 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: This was by more commy at all in one in 146 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: Science Advances. Now, I was interested in this pair of 147 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: findings not only because I was obviously amused by the 148 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: image of people just absolutely eating each other's teeth in 149 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: in high speed sidewalk collisions, but because this is one 150 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: of those ignoble subjects where once you get beyond the 151 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: mildly funny image it conjures, it actually raises quite i think, 152 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: quite deep, mysterious, fascinating questions about the emergent mathematical properties 153 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: of human behavior in groups. And it's also a subject 154 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: that goes way beyond mere curiosity. Understanding the flow of 155 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 1: crowds is a matter of life and death. It is 156 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: a vitally important subject for all kinds of reasons. So 157 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: this involves questions like how do masses of people move 158 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: through space on foot? What rules govern their behavior both 159 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: as individuals and as as a group, How can that 160 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: behavior be influenced, and especially how does the built environment 161 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: shape that behavior? Uh, you know, as you were alluding 162 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: to a minute ago. I think it's actually kind of 163 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: amazing how pedestrians can navigate through crowds without running into 164 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: each other. It's one of those, you know, thousand little 165 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: miracles of human human brain capacity that we don't usually 166 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: notice or appreciate. But you can have huge crowds moving 167 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: quickly and bi directionally mean running at cross directions, past 168 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: each other, straight through each other, and uh and most 169 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,839 Speaker 1: of the time people are able to avoid human crashes. Yeah, 170 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: and it it seems to be the case no matter 171 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,559 Speaker 1: where you go, even though I will say, and this 172 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: is just uh my my observation. I don't know to 173 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: what extent this this holds up to research, but it 174 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: feels like in in some parts of the world, the 175 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,439 Speaker 1: the energy of love, say, the movement of crowds on 176 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: a sidewalk can feel different, can a little bit different, 177 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: you know, but it's still maintaining, you know, the same 178 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: collision free experience. You know, like like maybe there's there's 179 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: something slightly different going on there, there's some sort of 180 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: there are different cultural norms in place regarding say, like 181 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 1: what side of the sidewalk people moving this way should 182 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: be on, or or so or so forth, or or 183 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,839 Speaker 1: even maybe you know how much space is permittable between 184 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: you and the next person, but still people are managing 185 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: not to blow into each other. Yeah. So to discuss 186 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: a few of the details of these two studies, regarding 187 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: the first one, Corbetta at all from from eighteen. I 188 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,719 Speaker 1: was reading about this uh in an article that had 189 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 1: a few interview clips um from in l Times, and 190 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:41,199 Speaker 1: this was looking at Technical University Eindhoven researchers Federico Tashi 191 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: and Alessandro Corbetta and uh so their study in particular 192 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: was looking at the question of how pedestrians avoid running 193 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: into each other when moving through the Eindhoven train station, 194 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: and they did this by installing sensors under the plow 195 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: forms of the train station which they used to track 196 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: the movements of pedestrians across the platform. So this was 197 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: an area of like twenty seven square meters and they 198 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: tracked pedestrian movement within it for six months. This came 199 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 1: out to measuring the movements about five million pedestrians total, 200 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: and they found a few measurable quantities. So first of all, 201 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: they said that people keep an average distance of about 202 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: seventy five centimeters away from other people while moving through crowds, 203 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,839 Speaker 1: so that's about two and a half feet. And they 204 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: said that about one out of every thousand people quote 205 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: will turn around and go back the way they came 206 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: to avoid bumping into somebody else. According to Alessandro Corbetta, quote, 207 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: about eighty of the pedestrians actually collided with each other. 208 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: The other pedestrians adjusted their walking route when they were 209 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: at least a hundred and forty centimeters which is about 210 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: four ft and seven inches apart, and thus managed to 211 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 1: avoid a collision. And though I was wondering about that, 212 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: so he gives the number eighty eight pedestrians collided. Does 213 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: that mean eighty pedestrians total, meaning roughly forty collisions or 214 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: is that like, uh, there were eighty collisions, which would 215 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: make you think they'd be like at least a hundred 216 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 1: and sixty people involved. I'm not sure. Well, it raises 217 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: the question how many people are necessary to create a collision? 218 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: Is it one? Or is it too it's at least two, 219 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: I mean you could have more, I guess, But is 220 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: it I guess it depends on like is it is 221 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: it negligence on one person's part that leads to collision? 222 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:34,719 Speaker 1: Or negligence or distraction whatever on two people's parts. You know, Ah, 223 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 1: well that will I will actually come up in the 224 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: other study, I think. But what this study found is that, yeah, 225 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:45,719 Speaker 1: people are constantly monitoring for upcoming collisions and then adjusting 226 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 1: their walking trajectories accordingly several meters in advance. So ultimately, 227 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 1: the question here is it's not really relevant exactly how 228 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: many people slammed faces, but how on average pedestrians adjust 229 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: their courses to avoid collisions. What rules do they use 230 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: to make those those evasions? And this just apparently happens constantly. 231 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: We're usually not even aware of it. But you know, 232 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: I can recall, like moving through an airport or something, 233 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 1: you are just doing a delicate dance for for several 234 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: minutes of a time at a time, often you know, 235 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 1: just dodging dodging, dodging, dodging, and you don't even really 236 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: think about it. It's a process that can be be 237 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: oddly captivating, I find, you know, especially if I'm on 238 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: my own, I don't have to worry about anyone else, 239 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: you know, traveling with me. Uh, you know, cutting a 240 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: swath for them to travel through, you know, checking back 241 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: on how they're doing it. It's just me cutting through, um, 242 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: like a reasonable sized crowd or a reasonable flow of 243 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: pedestrian traffic. Uh, it feels kind of empowering. Well, yeah 244 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: it is, and I think that highlights one of the 245 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: interesting features there, which is that, um, so when you're 246 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 1: moving through a crowd, you are making individual decisions, like 247 00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: and those decisions are being driven by different things. Like, 248 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,079 Speaker 1: on one hand, you've got your basic propulsive drive, like 249 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: you have where you need to be and the course 250 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: you think you need to take to get there. And 251 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: then probably the second main thing governing your movement is 252 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 1: what these researchers would refer to as social forces, which 253 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: would be things like the taboo against touching other people 254 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: while you're walking, or basically the force that keeps you 255 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: separate from other people and makes you want to avoid 256 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: running into them or touching them in some other way. Yeah, 257 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: because there's a physical risk to actually running into somebody, 258 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: and there is like a social risk to not only 259 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: running into somebody, but even almost running into somebody, yeah, 260 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: even getting too close exactly. But so while those forces 261 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: are are guiding your decision making as an individual, you 262 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: are a thinking person and you you know there are 263 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: cognitive inputs, like you are moving through this crowd as 264 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: an individual. It's strange that take thousands of people and 265 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: they're all making these individual decisions based on these types 266 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: of forces, you know, their drive forces, and their and 267 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: their restrictive social forces. And yet when you look at 268 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: them as a group, they seem to behave in ways 269 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: that are predictable. Even though they're making in these individual decisions, 270 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: they behave in ways that can quite well be modeled 271 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: and predicted and understood by things that are that are 272 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: like physics models the way the same way that you 273 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: would model, say, the movements of a fluid, you know, 274 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: a gas or a liquid through a container than and 275 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: so the authors of this first study you're saying, well, 276 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: by studying the natural movement patterns of pedestrians and trying 277 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: to model them in in terms of the language of 278 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: physics on a large scale, Uh, this can be useful 279 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: in terms of things like architecture and design. You know, 280 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: you can design better spaces for people to walk, both 281 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: in terms of efficiency the throughput how many people can 282 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: move through them quickly, but also in terms of safety 283 00:15:57,640 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: because as we know, and as I'll talk about in 284 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: a bit, UH, crowds can become quite dangerous when when 285 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: density gets too high. Now, I was also reading an 286 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: article that that had a few uh quotes from these researchers, 287 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: And this was an article for Physics, the magazine of 288 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: the American Physical Society by Michael scherber Uh. And this 289 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: one also discussed the second winner, the winner of the 290 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: Kinetics Prize, the paper that was by Murakami at all. 291 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: And this study was interesting too. So it instead of measuring, 292 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: you know, putting sensors under a floor and measuring natural movement, 293 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: it's staged experiments. So this study asked volunteers to walk 294 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: by directionally, so imagine people crossing each other, walking in 295 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: opposite directions the way they would say, like a crowded 296 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: crosswalk in the street. And then it tried to see 297 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: what happens when when people walk by directionally under normal circumstances, 298 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: and then what happens when some of those people are distracted, specifically, 299 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: what happens when they're trying to do calculations on their phones. 300 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 1: And the purpose of this experiment was to interfere with 301 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: people's ability to see collisions coming and avoid them. Now, 302 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: it probably won't come as a big surprise that pedestrians 303 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: who were distracted by phones made more navigation mistakes, leading 304 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: to a number of near collisions. But even when not distracted, 305 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: people sometimes had difficulty and uh. One of the implications 306 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: of this experiment is that avoiding collisions is a collaborative effort. 307 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: It requires awareness and coordination of multiple parties, both looking 308 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: at each other and trying to assess what paths they're 309 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:47,640 Speaker 1: about to take, and then adjusting their own paths in accordingly. 310 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,400 Speaker 1: And this becomes difficult when even just one of these 311 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: parties is distracted, especially if multiple parties are distracted. I 312 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 1: was also reading an interview with one of the researchers 313 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 1: from the second study, the coninectics ees UM. This was 314 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: on a Swiss news site swiss Info dot c H 315 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: and it was an interview by Zeno Soccatelli with a 316 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: researcher named Claudio Feliciani who works at the University of 317 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: Tokyo but who originally hails from Switzerland. And so Feliciani 318 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: mentioned a few interesting things in this interview. One is that, okay, 319 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: so when you when you have people not distracted, UM, 320 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: how do they tend to move in groups when they're 321 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,400 Speaker 1: moving by directionally, like you imagine people crossing each two 322 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: crowds at at a busy crosswalk trying to go past 323 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: each other. How do they normally move? And Feliciani says 324 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: that what tends to happen is people automatically self organize 325 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: into lines. People tend to naturally follow the person directly 326 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: in front of them, and simply by obeying this rule, 327 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: the moving crowd naturally forms into lanes or lines of people. 328 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: And so they were trying to understand the mechanisms that 329 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 1: make these lines form and how they work. Of course, 330 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: you know one way understand how something works is to 331 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,360 Speaker 1: see if you can break it. Um So, Feliciani says, 332 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: quote specifically, we caused some of the pedestrians to be distracted, 333 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: asking them to walk while solving simple calculations on their phones. 334 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: With just three out of fifty four people focused on 335 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:20,439 Speaker 1: something else, rows formed much less quickly, especially if the 336 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: distracted people were at the front of the group, and 337 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 1: the increased attention of the non distractors is not enough 338 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: to make up for the lack of attention of the 339 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: three who are distracted. And then on this website there 340 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: is actually video I could watch maybe you want to 341 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 1: take a look, rob But there's video that shows how 342 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: people move in these lines under normal conditions, and then 343 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 1: what it looks like when just a few of them 344 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: are distracted. So not everybody is trying to do math 345 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: on their phone. Just a few people, just a few 346 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: people out of the fifty four completely screw things up 347 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: and everybody gets jammed up. The lanes stone form naturally. 348 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 1: Uh So it seems like its navigating through crowds by directionally. 349 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: It has this tendency to for you know, self organizing 350 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: emergent structures to form, but that requires everybody to be 351 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: paying attention and monitoring each other and sort of communicating 352 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: nonverbally about where they're headed. This is interesting. I mean, 353 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,360 Speaker 1: of course, this has huge ramifications on a are already 354 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: you know, near ubiquitous use of smartphones and the fact 355 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 1: that people will have them out while they're walking around. 356 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: But it also makes me wonder about, you know, the 357 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 1: more we push into this idea of augmented reality, of 358 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: of having some sort of you know, a metaverse that 359 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: is digitally imposed on the world around us. Uh, you know, 360 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 1: what's what's that going to do? Or does it make 361 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: it easier? I don't know like I can. Maybe you 362 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: imagine the case being made that like, well, you're not 363 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: looking at your screen, You're looking at the world around 364 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 1: you for this information, which you were probably already doing 365 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 1: and potentially distracted by, just as a normal pedestrian pre smartphone. Well, 366 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: I mean it is yet another one of those things 367 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 1: are we have surprisingly powerful capacities, you know, like we 368 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 1: can do things that are kind of amazing if you 369 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: sit and think about them, like walking through crowds without 370 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 1: collisions or driving a car, but we also fail to 371 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: have the metacognitive recognition of how much attention it takes 372 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 1: to do that correctly. So you have people not realizing 373 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 1: how impaired they are when they're texting while driving, or uh, 374 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: not quite appreciating how quickly this entire crosswalk will get 375 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: jammed up if just a couple of people are distracted 376 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 1: while they're walking. But anyway, I just got really interested 377 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: in the subject of the the modeling of the flow 378 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: of human crowds. Um uh. Like one idea that that 379 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 1: I found very sticky is I was looking at a 380 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: paper from two thousand three in the Annual Review of 381 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: Fluid Mechanics by Roger L. Hughes, who is who worked 382 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: in the Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering at the 383 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: University of Melbourne, and the paper is called the Flow 384 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 1: of Human Crowds, and he was discussing the idea that 385 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 1: human movements could be modeled like like the flow of 386 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: of non human substances, you know, just like molasses flowing 387 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: out of a jar, or like the way particles of 388 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 1: gas move around in a container. But of course it's 389 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: complicated by the fact that there are social inputs on 390 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,400 Speaker 1: the movement, even if the movement can be modeled like 391 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 1: the movement of a physical substance at the large scale. Uh. 392 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: And he ended up characterizing crowds as the field of 393 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: quote thinking fluids, which is just wonderful. Uh. And so 394 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: this isn't related to either of the prize winners I 395 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 1: was just talking about, but I was also I ended 396 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,199 Speaker 1: up reading another really interesting article on the subject of 397 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: physical and mathematical modeling of crowdflow. And this was an 398 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: article in Smithsonian Magazine from January by Evelyn Lamb. It 399 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: was called how fluid dynamics can help You Navigate crowds 400 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: And so the premise of this article is that because 401 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: the of human crowds can be modeled like the flow 402 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: of physical substances. Physics modeling can also offer suggestions to 403 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: individual members of crowds for how to move through them 404 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,199 Speaker 1: in the safest and best way, at least potentially. I mean, 405 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 1: there's a lot of uncertainty. Uh this, I guess it's 406 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: kind of a young scientific field right now, but um 407 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: that it could potentially offer individual advice in addition to 408 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: the stuff we already talked about, like informing how to 409 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,959 Speaker 1: better design spaces for people to walk through and uh so, 410 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: of course, this article mentioned some of the same research 411 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 1: we already talked about, such as the the idea that 412 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: moving crowds tend to form the self organizing natural lanes 413 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: or lines, often just by a rule as simple as 414 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: you directly follow the person ahead of you. But then 415 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: this article goes on to side a few researchers offering 416 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: some other observations. So one thing is that it cites 417 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: a researcher named Dirk Helping, who is at the Swiss 418 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 1: Federal Institute of Technology and Zurich and who studies computation 419 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 1: all social science. Um, I just noticed, I wonder if 420 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,880 Speaker 1: there's like a big center of crowdflow study in Switzerland, 421 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: because several of these uh of these papers have had 422 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: Swiss connections of one kind or another, so springing off 423 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 1: of some stuff that that helping says here, Lamb actually 424 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: highlights a couple of the main governing forces that appear 425 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,439 Speaker 1: to drive the individual behaviors of people within crowds, and 426 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: I think they actually they sort of line up with 427 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: what we're talking about a minute ago. So on one hand, 428 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: you've got a force that propels the person towards their goal. 429 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: They're they're trying to get somewhere, and then second you've 430 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: got the social forces that prevent them from doing something, 431 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: mostly prevent them from colliding with with other people in 432 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 1: the crowd. And regarding that second force, the social force, 433 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: I thought this was really interesting. The article makes the 434 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 1: case that it is similar to the repulsive force that 435 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: keeps particles from colliding, like physical particles, and in the 436 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 1: case of physic goal like atoms and molecules, this would 437 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: be the electromagnetic force. Electrons of course repel one another. 438 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: They've got like charges, they push back against each other, 439 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: and in the case of particles, you can actually calculate 440 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: the strength of the repulsive force via what's known as 441 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: the inverse square law. So the inverse square law is 442 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: a very important mathematical principle that applies throughout physics. Basically, 443 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: it applies to any quantity of energy or force propagating 444 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: out from a central source in three dimensions, and it 445 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 1: says that the that quantity will decrease, not just in 446 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: a linear way as you move away from the source, 447 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,719 Speaker 1: but it will decrease according to the square of the 448 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: distance between you and the source. So a simpler way 449 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: to conceptualize this is that when you're thinking about light intensity, 450 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 1: or gravity or electromagnetic repulsive forces between particles, proximity really matters, 451 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: and a force that is almost undetectable at a distance 452 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: can become very strong as you can close. So this 453 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,159 Speaker 1: is true of particles avoiding collisions in flowing masses of 454 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: liquid or gas. But it's also true of humans moving 455 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 1: in a crowd, uh, though in a slightly different way. 456 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: And then the article calls attention to a paper that 457 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: made a really interesting discovery back in so this paper 458 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 1: was by Johannis Karamutzas, Brian Skinner, and Stephen Jay Guy 459 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 1: and Physical Review letters called universal power law governing pedestrian interactions, 460 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: and the author summarize their findings like this, They say, quote, 461 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 1: here we introduce a novel statistical mechanical approach to directly 462 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: measure the interaction energy between pedestrians. This analysis, when applied 463 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: to a large collection of human motion data, reveals a 464 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,120 Speaker 1: simple power law interaction that is based not on the 465 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: physical separation between pedestrians, but on their projected time to 466 00:26:55,320 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 1: a future collision, and it's therefore fundamentally anticipatory in nature. 467 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,919 Speaker 1: So this really got me. So so there is a 468 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:09,199 Speaker 1: rule in operation just automatically in moving human crowds that 469 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: works somewhat like the inverse square law for the repulsion 470 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: between particles in a fluid, but it's a repulsion based 471 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: not just on physical proximity. It's based on the anticipation 472 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: of movement pathways. So you can think about it this way. 473 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: If you're in a big crowd of people and you're 474 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 1: moving along on the sidewalk, you can actually be very 475 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: close to another person. So you can be walking beside 476 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: somebody parallel, side by side, or you can even be 477 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 1: pretty close to the person ahead of you or behind 478 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: you walking in the same direction, where you have to 479 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 1: adjust your path to avoid a collision is when you 480 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: notice that your path is about to cross somebody else's. 481 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: And we calculate these adjustments not purely in terms of distance, 482 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: but in terms of time. That like, the variable is 483 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: time to collision based on the current speed of your movement, 484 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: and people are typically anticipating about one to three seconds 485 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: into the future, depending on the characteristics of the crowd. 486 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:19,160 Speaker 1: Thank so, people use these rules pretty reliably to move 487 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: in crowds, and as we've said already, they can usually 488 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: avoid collisions. But there are some situations where the rules 489 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: stop working, particularly as the density of the crowd increases. 490 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: The higher the density, the more your collision avoidance skills 491 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: are overwhelmed and different principles take over. And sometimes, unfortunately, 492 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: these situations can turn very dangerous. Uh. You know, people 493 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: are killed in crowds all the time, at everything from 494 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: music festivals to religious events. And I think a lot 495 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: of times when people read reporting about about deaths through 496 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: through crowd crush and crowd dynamics, I think a lot 497 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: of times people fail to understand exactly what's happening in 498 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: these situations, Like they sometimes seem to imagine that this 499 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: must result from the crowds being somehow evil like violent 500 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: or malicious or chaotic, or at least the news reporting 501 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 1: on these events sometimes has that kind of tone, and 502 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: this is not necessarily the case at all. People in 503 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: large crowds can easily be injured or killed simply by 504 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: the uncontrollable flow of human bodies through space. Like you 505 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: don't have to imagine people in the crowd wanting to 506 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: trample each other. There there are irresistible physical forces at work, 507 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: like you could you could essentially have a large mass 508 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: of people attending a rally about the importance of crowd 509 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: safety and if we're not managed properly, it could result 510 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: in injury. Right. Yeah, So say maybe you're trying to 511 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: quickly move a huge, massive people and they're moving through 512 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: a corridor that's originally a hundred meters wide and then 513 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: suddenly it narrows to five ms wide. Uh, this could 514 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: this could spell disaster. And you can also imagine scenarios where, 515 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: you know, especially at events that are attracting big crowds, 516 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: non crowdflow dynamics can can have exactly the wrong incentives 517 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: for how to shape those spaces, right, Like maybe at 518 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: a big music festival or something, you want to have 519 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: choke points that control access to spaces, maybe so that 520 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: you can check for tickets or who knows what UM. 521 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,479 Speaker 1: But but it's exactly at areas where there are there 522 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: are things like bottlenecks where suddenly the density of the 523 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: crowd increases dramatically and unexpectedly, that things can really get dangerous. 524 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: And researchers in this field studying crowdflow have actually uh 525 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: looked at a lot of video documentation to come up 526 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: with models to try to understand what happens when crowdflow 527 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: becomes deadly. And the article here discusses a few observations 528 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: in this area. Though it's quick to caveat and I 529 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: guess we should too, that we we we we can't 530 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: give you, you know, the hard and fast rules to 531 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: follow that will always keep you safe, because there's still 532 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: a lot that's not known about exactly how this happens. 533 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: But there are a few things that seem probably true. 534 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: One of them, again, obviously, is that density seems to 535 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: be a major contributor to when when crowds get dangerous. 536 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 1: That you know, if a pathway suddenly narrows at a 537 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: tunnel or a bridge or something um and the article 538 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: describes how increasing density and these types of areas can 539 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: lead to something called stop and go waves, where people 540 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: can no longer keep moving continuously forward. They're moving, they're 541 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: used to walking, and then they eventually reach a point 542 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: where the crowd is so dense that even at low speeds, 543 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: they can't keep moving forward, so they stop. And then 544 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: once they're stopped, they move forward, but of course people 545 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,719 Speaker 1: are still trying to move in behind them. Uh, so 546 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: they're stopped, people are advancing behind them, and they tend 547 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: to move forward into any gaps as soon as they appear. Uh. 548 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: Stop and go waves are not always necessarily dangerous, but 549 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: they can be an indication that crowd density is getting 550 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: too high. And then, to read from Lamb's description of 551 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: what happens after this here quote, things get really dangerous 552 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: if the crowd continues to get denser or people make 553 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: unexpected movements. At that point, the crowd can become turbulent 554 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 1: and chaotic, with people being pushed randomly in different directions. 555 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: Disasters can break out when say, one person stumbles, causing 556 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: someone else to be pushed into their place and either 557 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: trampling them or stumbling themselves, and this whole can have 558 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: a kind of gravitational effect pulling in more and more people, 559 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: which in terms of the physical dynamics, this is similar 560 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: to how the flow of physical substances like water behave 561 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: when they're funneled into narrower and narrower places. Like I 562 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 1: think about how some of the world's most dangerous whirlpools 563 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: seem to occur in bottlenecks for the flow of water, 564 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: where for example, the tide is pushing a huge amount 565 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 1: of water through a narrow, straight or your This can 566 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: lead to rushing and turbulence. It's chaotic flow and unpredictable 567 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: directions which can sometimes create these whirlpools. Anyway, back to 568 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: the article, it mentions a couple of other UH seeming 569 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 1: risk factors for for when this happens UH. In addition 570 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: to the high density another one is bidirectional or multidirectional flow. 571 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: So things can get more dangerous if you have high 572 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: density and people trying to move in different directions UM. 573 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: And then finally, lambsites The researcher Juannas Kara Mutzis, who 574 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: was one of the authors on that paper from feen 575 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 1: I mentioned a minute ago saying that in large enclosed spaces. 576 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 1: For some reason, the sides of the space seemed possibly 577 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: to be more dangerous than the middle, though there isn't 578 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 1: enough research to be sure of that or to explain 579 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: why it happens. So obviously, understanding the flow of crowds 580 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: goes way beyond just just being a kind of interesting 581 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: little curiosity and like looking at how people move. It 582 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: is something that is of critical importance in managing, you know, 583 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: large masses of people, and in designing spaces for them 584 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: to move through, and in planning events and all kinds 585 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,879 Speaker 1: of things like that. I mean, this is like one 586 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 1: of those things that starts off being really funny but 587 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: is in fact a critically important subject. Yeah, I mean absolutely, 588 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: they're they're just going to be more and more office 589 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,319 Speaker 1: and these uh, these large events of of you know, 590 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 1: varying genres are going to continue to be a part 591 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 1: of our lives. This actually got me wondering about something, 592 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 1: which is um why doesn't anything like like uncontrollable crowdflow 593 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:40,280 Speaker 1: with with actual like pressing against one another happen with cars. 594 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,320 Speaker 1: You can see some of the characteristics happen with cars 595 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,320 Speaker 1: because you can get traffic back up when there's a 596 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: bottleneck in the highway, maybe seven lanes suddenly go down 597 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 1: to one, and this will cause a huge traffic jam. 598 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: But you don't usually have the problem with like cars 599 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 1: pushing each other and and pressing against one another and 600 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 1: leading to this bill up of uncontrollable forces. I was 601 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,360 Speaker 1: wondering why that is. Maybe it's because I'm just guessing. 602 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: I wonder if it's because it's never considered acceptable for 603 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:14,240 Speaker 1: cars to touch each other at all. Uh. And people, 604 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 1: of course mostly avoid try to avoid touching one another 605 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: in crowds, but in some situations, maybe it just seems 606 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 1: like there's no avoiding it, so you just sort of 607 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 1: resign yourself to touching and then that and then that 608 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 1: can build up. Maybe I'm not sure, you know, that's 609 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 1: a good point. Yeah, because even though some drivers do 610 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,359 Speaker 1: like to come as close as possible to touching your car, uh, 611 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: which is something I've never been able to understand, just 612 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,879 Speaker 1: given how dangerous it actually is to you know, to 613 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 1: to you know, to pull up right behind somebody will 614 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 1: at high speeds on the interstate. Uh. Yeah, yeah, to 615 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,879 Speaker 1: your point, they you're not actually supposed to ram into 616 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: them even a little bit. And and while you know, 617 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,320 Speaker 1: certainly pile ups do occur. You do have acts density, 618 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,240 Speaker 1: do have cars crashing into one another and then multiple 619 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 1: car pile ups occurring. Um, yeah, I wonder if this 620 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,880 Speaker 1: stricter no touch policy with cars has some sort of 621 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,839 Speaker 1: influence on us. Well yeah, maybe another thing is I'm 622 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: not conceptualizing it right, And maybe the crowd dynamics I 623 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: was talking about are more analogous to just actual like 624 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: pile up crashes, I guess, which I wasn't thinking about 625 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,360 Speaker 1: in a similar way because those happen at higher speeds. 626 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: I wonder what would we would see in something that's 627 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,840 Speaker 1: halfway between if what would be between a car and 628 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 1: a person if we were to say, look at a 629 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: bicycle traffic in very congested bicycle situations, say a city 630 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 1: where there's a high number of bicycle riders or something, 631 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 1: or bicycle races. Because I feel like one of the 632 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: things with people is that yeah, it's like, yeah, maybe segways, 633 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: but I feel like one of the things with people, 634 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: like you've already mentioned, is when you're pushed forward, you 635 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 1: may be pushed into that hole that you could not 636 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: otherwise occupy or wouldn't occupy socially. But now you know, 637 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: if you're being pushed. I guess that's where I'm going. Um, 638 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: so there's just more nooks and crannies for for human beings. 639 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,720 Speaker 1: Um and then with with cars less so. But perhaps 640 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:13,280 Speaker 1: if you're looking at bicycles, like maybe maybe we see 641 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,360 Speaker 1: something that's more like the human scenario. It'd be interested 642 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 1: to hear from some of our bicyclists out there, like 643 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 1: what are the social laws of crowded bicycle scenarios? How 644 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,359 Speaker 1: close can you get to another bicyclist while moving while 645 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: stationary while sort of you know, uh, tiptoeing along. I'd 646 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: be interested a year, Yeah, totally, I mean especially yeah, 647 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,720 Speaker 1: like it seems a key difference is is the the 648 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:41,280 Speaker 1: the balancing act that's necessary on a bicycle? Yeah? Well, anyway, 649 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 1: I want to say about these two subjects, the physics 650 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 1: and kinetics price this year. This definitely did, uh did 651 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,879 Speaker 1: achieve the desired intent. It made me laugh a little 652 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: bit and then did make me think it was not 653 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 1: I will I will grant it did not make me 654 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 1: laugh hilariously, so it was a mild chuckle, but then 655 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: it got really interesting to me. Yes, all right, we're 656 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: gonna go and close this episode out, but we will 657 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 1: be back. Um, I'm going to talk about the Biology Prize. 658 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 1: We're gonna get into some other prizes from the Igno 659 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 1: Bells this year, so just tune into that in the 660 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 1: next Core episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind. To 661 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 1: remind everybody, Stuff to Blow Your Mind. The podcast feed 662 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 1: can be found wherever you get your podcasts. Core episodes 663 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,879 Speaker 1: come out on Tuesdays and Thursday's Monday is listener Mail, 664 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 1: Wednesday is a short form artifact episode, and on Friday's 665 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 1: we do Weird House Cinema. That's our time to set 666 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: aside most serious concerns and just focus on a weird film. 667 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 1: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth 668 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 1: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch 669 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 1: with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 670 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 1: to suggest topic for the future, or just to say hello, 671 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,439 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 672 00:38:51,480 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 673 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for My 674 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 675 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:17,359 Speaker 1: or wherever you listening to your favorite shows