1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from housetop 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I 3 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: am Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Fry and we 4 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: got a request on Twitter recently asking if we were 5 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,119 Speaker 1: going to do any more Civil War episodes for the 6 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty anniversary of the Civil War. And the 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: answer is yes, it is now. Yes. At the time 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,959 Speaker 1: it was somewhere on the spectrum between maybe and probably 9 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: and now it's yes. Yeah. We always want to um 10 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: fulfill those desires of our listeners, but it's not always 11 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: feasible to get everybody's wishes granted, and the short amount 12 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 1: of time that we have, I think the real answer 13 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 1: is never feasible because we get literally ten suggestions for 14 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: every one episode that we can record. At least that's 15 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: a conservative guest. But the Civil War very broad topic 16 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: with lots and lots of things that she's from. So 17 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: I chose one of my favorite favorite themes, which is 18 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: ladies dressing up as gentleman to go fight. Yeah. I 19 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,320 Speaker 1: don't know why I love that so much, but I do. Well, 20 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: it's fascinating on a number of levels. So today we're 21 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: going to talk about Sarah Emma Edmonds. She was a 22 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 1: Canadian woman who went to fight for the Union just 23 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: after the start of the Civil War and she served 24 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: disguised as a man without discovery for almost two years. 25 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 1: And according to her memoir, she wasn't just a nurse 26 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: in the army, she was also a spy. And we'll 27 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: talk more about the memoir as we go on. Yes, 28 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: we're gonna We're gonna talk about some things that she 29 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: that she discusses in it, and then we'll talk about 30 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: why maybe those things happened. So uh. Sarah was born 31 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: Sarah Emma Evelyn Edmondson in New Brunswick, Canada, in December 32 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: of eighty one. As was often the case at the time, 33 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: her father wanted a boy to help him in his 34 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: farming work, and he resented her for not being one. 35 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:04,559 Speaker 1: He didn't treat her very well when she was young, 36 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: and when she was sixteen, she was also facing an 37 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: arranged marriage that she really didn't want to have any 38 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: part of. So around eighteen fifty seven she left home 39 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: and at that time she also dropped the Sun from 40 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: her last name, and she worked for about a year 41 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: in month in New Brunswick. She was afraid that her 42 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: father would find her, so she eventually fled to the 43 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: United States. To make it easier and safer for her 44 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: to travel by herself, she adopted a new identity, which 45 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: was Franklin Thompson, and she started dressing as a man. 46 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: And a note on the pronouns here, we are going 47 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: to use she and her when talking about her, because, 48 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: based on all the information we have, Franklin Thompson is 49 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: a disguise that she adopted and not an expression of 50 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: her gender identity. It's also a little unclear whether she 51 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: went by Sarah or Emma, so for the sake of simplicity, 52 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: we're just going to call her Sarah. So, first of all, 53 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: after um Lee even New Brunswick, Sarah went to Hartford, Connecticut, 54 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 1: and she got work as a traveling Bible salesman, making 55 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: her way to other cities including Boston, Massachusetts, and Flint, Michigan. 56 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: And an interesting point of note, she actually used the 57 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: middle name Flint as part of her male alias, and 58 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: this could be why. In eighteen sixty one, after the 59 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: fall of Fort Sumter started the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln 60 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: called for seventy five thousand volunteers to join the Union Army. 61 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 1: At that point, Sarah was in Flint, so even though 62 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: she wasn't born an American, Sarah still felt it was 63 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: her duty to join the side of the Union and 64 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: she wanted to help out by being a nurse. She 65 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: could have done this in the civilian world by working 66 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: in hospitals with recuperating soldiers, but she really felt like 67 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: the role of battlefield nurse was more crucial and more needed, 68 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: and it's possible that the excitement of it was also 69 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: a draw for her. But that job working in the 70 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: field as a nurse, along with pretty much everything else 71 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: in the military at the time, was reserved exclusively for men. So, 72 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: maintaining her Franklin Thompson disguise, she went to enlist. Recruitment 73 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: offices were really busy at the time, and there was 74 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: really not a lot of physical examination going on of 75 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: the people who were going to join the army, so 76 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 1: she joined without anyone detecting that she was a woman. 77 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: She joined the second Michigan Infantry on April eighteen sixty one, 78 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 1: and she was ranked as a field nurse. She was 79 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 1: in Company F, which was the Flint Union Grays, and 80 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: this was the first three year regiment in Michigan and 81 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: the first Western regiment to arrive in Washington, d C. 82 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: When the second Michigan arrived in Washington, she worked in 83 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: temporary hospitals with soldiers who were either sick when they 84 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 1: got to Washington, or had gotten sick after they arrived, 85 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: or had been injured in some kind of mishap. Because 86 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: of very hot weather and how many soldiers were arriving 87 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: in Washington, the hospitals were actually really busy and there 88 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: weren't enough doctors to go around. Typhoid and heat related 89 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 1: illnesses were also really and along with infections that got 90 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: worse because of the heat. And to top all of 91 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: that off, they were also having a problem with summer storms. 92 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: Um Since most of these temporary hospitals were set up 93 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: in tents and they didn't always have flooring, the ground 94 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: could quickly flood during a thunderstorm, so things were really 95 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: pretty tough and a little bit dicey for administering medical aid. 96 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: The provisions that they had available were also poor. There 97 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: was plenty to eat, but it was mostly things like 98 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: hard bread and coffee that might be really good for 99 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: a healthy young soldier, but not the best choices for 100 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: somebody who was sick or recuperating, so on the advice 101 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: of the chaplain and his wife, who figure into her 102 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: story at other times. Later, she started an initiative to 103 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 1: ask for help for sick and wounded soldiers from the 104 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 1: families and businesses in that area, and she helped bring 105 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: in better provisions for the men who were recovering. So 106 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: on July fifteenth, eighteen sixty one, and Sarah's unit got 107 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: their marching orders to go to bull Run, which is 108 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 1: also known as Manassas, and they departed two days later 109 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: on the seventeenth. The Battle of First Manassas also known 110 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: as the Battle of First bull Run, took place on 111 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: July one. In this battle, what the Union was hoping 112 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: to do was gain control of a railroad junction that 113 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: would give them easier access to the Confederate capital of Richmond. 114 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: They were not successful. Sarah's regiment did not participate in 115 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: the battle itself, but when the order came to withdraw, 116 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: the army's means of retreat was blocked by carriages of 117 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 1: people who had traveled out from Washington to watch the 118 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: fighting as spectators. So Sarah's regiment was crucial in helping 119 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: to cover the Union's botched retreat. While her regiment was 120 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: providing cover, what she was doing was helping with the wounded, 121 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: as well as delivering water to the fighting soldiers. It 122 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: was so hot that day that they were becoming dehydrated 123 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: and their performance was weakening. And after the battle was over, 124 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: Sarah actually stayed behind to tend the wounded who had 125 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: to be left behind because they couldn't travel, and as 126 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: important as her nurse work was delivering water to all 127 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: of these wounded troops. Once she was ready to leave, 128 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: she had to evade the eye of Confederate soldiers and 129 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: make her way back to Washington by herself. The army 130 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: remained in d c for quite a while after Manassas, 131 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: and she continued to work in the hospital. She was 132 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: caring for patients, She was securing food and provisions, just 133 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: as she had started to prior to the fighting. In 134 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: March of eighteen sixty two, she became a mail carrier 135 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: for her regiment, and for the remainder of her service, 136 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: she combined doing work as a nurse with various mail 137 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: and courier duties, including acting as a postmaster. The second 138 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: Michigan Infantry eventually joined the Peninsula Campaign, and this was 139 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: part of the Union's attempt to capture the Confederate capital 140 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: of Richmond by moving up the Virginia Peninsula rather than 141 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: by going overland from d C. This would allowed the 142 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: Union to get the support of the Union Navy as 143 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: well as the army. As part of the Peninsula Campaign, 144 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: her regiment was part of the Siege of Yorktown, the 145 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: Battle of Williamsburg, the Battle of Fair Oaks also known 146 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: as Seven Pines, and the Seven Days Battles before Richmond, 147 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: at which the Union was ultimately defeated and had to retreat. 148 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: In all of these battles, she worked as a nurse 149 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: and a stretcher bearer and helped carry wounded men off 150 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: the field. In the Battle of Williamsburg, all of that 151 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: happened while a heavy rain was going on, and the 152 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,599 Speaker 1: fighting was also really fierce, and at one point she 153 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 1: took up arms herself. Her regiment was involved in many 154 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: other battles, but the next most notable event in her 155 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: own personal story was during the Battle of Second Manassas 156 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 1: also called Second bull Run, which was on August twenty nine, 157 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty two. She was acting as a courier during 158 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: the battle, so she was relaying instructions from one part 159 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: of the battlefield to another, and her horse was killed, 160 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: so she had to ride a mule instead. This mule, 161 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: as mules are known for being stubborn, threw her into 162 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: a ditch and she was badly injured. She hurt her 163 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: leg and experienced internal hemorrhaging. It was not her first injury, 164 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 1: but it was one that continued to affect her throughout 165 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: her life, and while she had become a depth at 166 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: treating her own wounds so that people wouldn't discover that 167 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: she was a woman, this was one that would have 168 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: taken some time for her to recover from now. Her 169 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: memoir references her being at Antietam, which is also known 170 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: as the Battle of Sharpsburg, and burying a soldier who 171 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: confessed while dying that she was also female, but this 172 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: may have been an embellishment on Sarah's part, since two 173 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: different sources don't actually list the second Michigan as having 174 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: been an Antietam or. It's also possible that her regiment 175 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: didn't participate in the action, but that she did participate 176 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: in treating the wounded after the fact, and also Antietam 177 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: took place just a couple of weeks after her injury 178 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: at Second Manassas, so it may to be a slightly 179 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: romanticized version of what was actually taking place there, right, 180 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: And I found lots of sources that mentioned antietam Is 181 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: one of the battles that she was in, but they 182 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: all seemed to be referencing this one maybe questionable part 183 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: of who of her memoir, but regardless, she was definitely 184 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: recovered enough to return to battle in the Battle of Fredericksburg, 185 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: which went from December eleventh toft and she was an 186 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: orderly and relayed messages between headquarters and the front on horseback. 187 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: Fredericksburg was followed by the failed mud March, which was 188 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: a Northern Virginia campaign the Union undertook that went so 189 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: badly that they had to abandon it after three days 190 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: because the rain had completely obliterated the roads. Right right, 191 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: everybody was getting bogged down in a quagmire, essentially not 192 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: really um the most ideal conditions. Now, the war was 193 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: not going really well for the Union at this point, 194 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,959 Speaker 1: so both Fredericksburg and the mud March had gone pretty poorly. Uh, 195 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: and the loss of Fredericksburg had brought huge casualty, casualty 196 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: tools with it, and the mud March, as we said, 197 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: was basically a fiasco. It just it did not go 198 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: well at all. General Ambrose Burnside, who had been commanding 199 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: the Army of the Potomac since November eighteen sixty two, 200 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: was actually removed from command on January, and at that 201 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: point General Joseph Hooker was put in command of the 202 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 1: Army of the Potomac. At this point, Sarah wanted to 203 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: leave the Army of the Potomac as well, so she 204 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: put in for a transfer and was sent to the 205 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: ninth Army Corps. After a few days of leave, she 206 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: met up with them in Louisville, Kentucky. She doesn't really 207 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: explicitly spell out why she wanted a transfer, but it 208 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: seems kind of obvious from what was going on in 209 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: the war at that point. The last entry she made 210 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: in her journal before she left is pretty telling. She wrote, 211 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: the Weather Department is in perfect keeping with the War Department, 212 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: its policy being to make as many changes as possible, 213 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: and everyone worse than the last. May God bless the 214 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: old Army of the Potomac and save it from total annihilation. 215 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: So in her memoir, which we have already suggested is 216 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: pretty heavily embellished. Sarah also wrote some really interesting things 217 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: about becoming a spy for the Union. There's no mention 218 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: of her being a spy in her service record, but 219 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: she allegedly donned a disguise and went behind enemy lines 220 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 1: eleven different times. So it doesn't necessarily mean that it 221 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 1: never happened, because they wouldn't necessarily have recorded spy work 222 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,719 Speaker 1: in somebody's service record. But at the same time, the 223 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: things that we're going to talk about next are a 224 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: little vague in historical record. We don't have hard facts 225 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: on everything. It's largely her recounting of it right, And 226 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: exactly when this started is a little unclear, but it 227 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: seems from her memoir to have been sometime during the 228 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: siege of Yorktown and after a friend of hers, Lieutenant 229 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: James Vessey, who she had known before the time. Exactly 230 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: when this spy work began as a little unclear, but 231 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: it seems from her memoir to have started sometime during 232 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 1: the siege of Yorktown and after the death of a friend, 233 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: Lieutenant James Vessey, who she had known from before she 234 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: joined the army, and at about the same time, a 235 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: spy who had been doing reconnaissance for the Union in 236 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: Richmond was captured and shot by a Confederate firing squad. 237 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: The chaplain so it was the same chaplain who had 238 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: recommended that she seek out new provisions for the soldiers 239 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: in the hospitals in d C. The chaplain heard about this, 240 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: and when Sarah confided in him that she was becoming 241 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: dissatisfied in her nursing work and wanted to avenge her friend. 242 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 1: He told her about this this reconnaissance opportunity, and he 243 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: borrowed some army manuals for her to use to prepare 244 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: and in her account, she says that she faced a 245 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: lengthy interview and exam, which include a which included a 246 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: phrenological exam of her skull to examine the parts associated 247 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: with things like secretiveness and combativeness before she got the 248 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: okay to become a spy. In her first account of espionage, 249 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: she disguised herself as Contraband, which was a former slave 250 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: who had started to work with Union forces. She wore 251 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: a wig and used silver nitrate to color her skin, 252 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: and went by the name of Cuff on this On 253 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: this mission, she gathered information from the Richmond area while 254 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: working on the fortifications there and while carrying water. Sarah 255 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: also wrote of dressing as an Irish peddler, and this 256 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: time the disguise was that of a woman named Bridget, 257 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: and in this instance she took shelter in an apparently 258 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: abandoned house, only to find a gravely injured Confederate soldier 259 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: already staying there. Uh He gave her a watch to 260 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: deliver to a major McKee at a nearby Confederate camp 261 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: if she happened to pass by there, and she took 262 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: advantage of this opportunit unity to gain entry to the 263 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: camp and scout her own for information. She also wrote 264 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: of finding official documents in the pocket of a Confederate 265 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: officer while disguised as a launderer, and she returned these 266 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: to her commanding officer. Allegedly, her spying continued after she 267 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: moved into the Ninth Army Corps. She wrote in her 268 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: memoir about doing some recon while dressed as a Confederate 269 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: soldier and then shooting the Confederate commander that she had 270 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: been reporting to in the face once she fell back 271 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: in line with her Union troops. And just how much 272 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: of this is real? As we said, is pretty unclear. 273 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: We do know she enlisted, and we know she served, 274 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: but the spy stories just have not been substantiated. Apart 275 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: from her own descriptions that are in her memoir, her 276 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: military service didn't last much longer after she joined the 277 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: Ninth Corps. Not long after arriving in Kentucky, she developed malaria. 278 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 1: She knew she'd be discovered if she got medical treatment 279 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: in the regim it, and she asked for a furlough 280 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: and was denied. Now her account diverges from the historical account. 281 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: At this point. In her memoir, she wrote that she 282 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: went to the surgeon to say she was no longer 283 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: fit for duty, and that he agreed and wrote her 284 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: up a certificate of disability, and then she went back 285 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: to Washington to recover. So it's a little different than 286 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: what happened in the official record right and the historical 287 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: record she uh. Most other accounts say that sometime in 288 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: the spring of eighteen sixty three she left her post, 289 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: probably to seek treatment for malaria outside of the army, 290 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: and then Franklin Thompson, her alias, was marked as a deserter. 291 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: She did recover well enough to return to service, but 292 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 1: she couldn't actually do so because of the desertion charge, 293 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: so instead she found work in a hospital, this time 294 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: as herself with no disguise, and she worked with returning 295 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: soldiers until the end of the war. Her memoir was 296 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: called Unsexed or The Female Soldier, and then when it 297 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: was reprinted it was renamed Nurse and Spy and the 298 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 1: Union Army. It's definitely embellished. It's a very romanticized account 299 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: of her service. There's plenty of battle action and fighting 300 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 1: and shooting, but there's also there's a whole lot that's 301 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: more about the emotional side of service, and lots and 302 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: lots of stuff about what the emotional state of the 303 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: men was like, what life in camp was like. And 304 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 1: then every time, it seems like every other page, there 305 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: is someone handing her a locket or a ring, or 306 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: a note or a package to return home by a 307 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: comrade who has fallen. And it's also worth noting that 308 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: she donated all the proceeds from the sale of this 309 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 1: book to help wounded soldiers, so even though it may 310 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: be a romanticized account, it was ultimately beneficial. She at 311 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 1: one point wrote of a friendship with a woman named 312 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: Nellie in the story, and in this telling, Nellie's husband, 313 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: who was a Confederate soldier, as well as Nellie's other relatives, 314 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: had been killed by Union soldiers, and that when Sarah 315 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: first encounters Nellie and she asked her if she could 316 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: buy provisions for the Union army, Nelly actually drew a 317 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: gun on her, but Sarah allegedly shot her through the 318 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: hand and then captured her. But by the end of 319 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 1: the book their pals and Nellie has begun to work 320 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: in a Union hospital. So it reads kind of like 321 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: a subplot in a movie. Uh, this relationship that she 322 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,160 Speaker 1: has with Nellie and and something that if you think 323 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: about it, maybe that could have happened, But it also 324 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 1: seems a little far fetched. So as I was reading 325 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: her memoir, I read it with a pretty big grain 326 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: of salt. Yeah, we do know that. In eighteen sixty seven, 327 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 1: Sarah married Lina Seelie, who was a Canadian mechanic, and 328 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: they had three children together. They moved around quite a 329 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,360 Speaker 1: bit before they eventually settled in Texas as their home. 330 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: The Second Michigan Infantry held a reunion in eighteen seventy 331 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: six and Sarah attended, and when people figured out who 332 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 1: she was. They welcomed her into the fold the people 333 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: who had served with her. Some of them also helped 334 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: her fight the desertion charge that was on her record 335 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: and obtain a pension, which she thought because of the 336 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 1: injury she had incurred at Second Manassas. They had continued 337 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 1: to trouble her throughout her life. So eventually Franklin Thompson 338 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: was cleared of the desertion charges that took place in 339 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: eighteen eighty four, and he was given an honorable discharge 340 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: and then was awarded a pension of twelve dollars a month. 341 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: In eighteen Sarah was admitted to the Grand Army of 342 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: the Republic, which was a Civil War veterans organization. She 343 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 1: was the only woman to do so, and on September 344 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: five of eight Sarah died of malaria in Laport, Texas, 345 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 1: which was where she was living with her family. She 346 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 1: was fifty eight years old. She is actually buried in 347 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: the Washington Cemetery in Houston, Texas. I love this story. 348 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: It's really uh, I don't want to say fun because 349 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: there's so much sort of darkness about it, but there 350 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 1: is just such a sense of adventure and uh spiritedness 351 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: about it that there is a fun element to it, right, 352 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: It's just it's a wild ride. It is even without 353 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 1: her embellished version. It is a wild ride, even without 354 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: all of the things that you kind of go this women. 355 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 1: So she was not the only woman to serve in 356 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 1: the Civil War, and I found a pretty wide range 357 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: of estimates from a few as two hundred and fifty 358 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: to more than seven hundred and fifty women who disguised 359 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: their sex and went to serve in the Civil War. 360 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: And it was feasible for women to pass his men 361 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: thanks to the modesty and sanitary standards at the time. 362 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: Uh you know, soldiers slept in their clothes and sometimes 363 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: would go for weeks without bathing, especially during uh active wartime. 364 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: Women could bind their chest, pat out their waist and 365 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,679 Speaker 1: pretty easily passed for men. Uh you know. The facial 366 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: hair thing was not as much of an issue because 367 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:00,679 Speaker 1: at that time a lot of really of young boys 368 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: were enlisting as well, and a lot of volunteers were 369 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: coming from all walks of life and had to learn 370 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: everything about being a soldier. So being a little bit 371 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: lost in the world of the military was not unusual 372 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: for anybody, male or female. So if you couldn't fire 373 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,120 Speaker 1: a gun or do other tasks, it wasn't a red 374 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: flag that you might be a woman. So we know 375 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 1: that there are other women who made it all the 376 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: way through their service without being discovered. There are some 377 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: whose sex was discovered only after the woman had been 378 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: severely wounded or killed, but we don't have a lot 379 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: of really documented historical examples. Here are a few, though. 380 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: One was Lauretta Alaska's who wrote about serving in the 381 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: Civil War as Lieutenant Harry Buford and her memoirs, which 382 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: were published in eighteen seventy six. Mary Stephens Jenkins enlisted 383 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania and was wounded in battle, and she served 384 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: for two years without anyone discovering her sex. She died 385 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: in eighty one. Mary Owens of Pennsylvania sir for eighteen 386 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: months using the name John Evans. She was discovered to 387 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: be a woman and was sent home after being wounded 388 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 1: in the arm. Stronia Smith Hunt enlisted alongside her husband, 389 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: who died of wounds. One of the other most famous 390 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: examples is Albert D. J. Cashiers, who enlisted in eighteen 391 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,199 Speaker 1: sixty two and served until eighteen sixty five when his 392 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 1: regiment was mustered out of the Federal Army in nineteen thirteen. 393 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 1: While living in a soldier's home in Illinois, a sergeant 394 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,360 Speaker 1: discovered that he was female. He lived as a man 395 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 1: for his entire adult life and died in in an 396 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: insane asylum in nineteen fourteen. There are affidavits on file 397 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: and his record from people who served with him who 398 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: said that they had no idea of his physical sex. So, 399 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: for its part, the army actually tried to deny the 400 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,239 Speaker 1: involvement of women in the war at least once. In 401 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 1: nineteen o one, Ida Tarbell, writing for the American Magazine, 402 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: wrote to the Adjutant General to ask about how many 403 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 1: women had served in the Civil War, and she got 404 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: an answer that was just blatantly false. He said, quote, 405 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 1: I have the honor to inform you that no official 406 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 1: record has been found in the War Department showing specifically 407 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 1: that any woman was ever enlisted in the military service 408 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: of the United States as a member of any organization 409 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: of the regular or volunteer Army at any time during 410 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 1: the period of the Civil War. It is possible, however, 411 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 1: that there may have been a few instances of women 412 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 1: having served as soldiers for a short time without their 413 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 1: sex having been detected, but no record of such cases 414 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: is known to exist in the official files. Contrary to 415 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: that answer, the Army had compiled the records of the 416 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: Union and Confederate armies at that point, and there were 417 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: plenty of records on file of women's soldiers and of 418 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: discharged papers that were marked with sexual incompatibility. So when 419 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: the war was going on and afterwards, women's soldiers were 420 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: known of, and upon discovery often got quite a bit 421 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: of attention in newspapers. Word would spread of something like that. 422 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 1: But for a long time after the turn of the 423 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 1: century and even the until the nineteen eighties or so, 424 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 1: most writing about the Civil War actually omitted the women's 425 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 1: soldiers completely or branded them as freaks or deviance or prostitutes. 426 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: And it really wasn't until the late eighties and early 427 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: nineties that the stories of female Civil War soldiers started 428 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: to be told in a more positive light and their 429 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 1: service was actually recognized. So that is the story of 430 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:28,120 Speaker 1: Sarah Emma Edmonds. And if number one, you can read 431 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: her whole memoir for free on the internet if you 432 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: would like to go read a very adventurous and probably 433 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,880 Speaker 1: heavily romanticized tale of a woman's fight in the Civil War. 434 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: If you would like to read some fiction, actual fiction, 435 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:46,360 Speaker 1: not probably fictionalized kind of truth. Another book is Terry 436 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:50,120 Speaker 1: Pratchett's Monstrous Regiment, which tells the story of Polly who 437 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: joins the uh the Army after her brother goes missing 438 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: in battle, which I love because I love Terry Pratchett 439 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: and I love stories about the ladies who dresses gentlemen 440 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: to go off to war and fight. And now I 441 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: think you have some listener mail. I do. I have 442 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 1: listener mail. It's from our Facebook message box and it 443 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 1: is from Sina, and Sina says, I just listened to 444 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,919 Speaker 1: the Cheese podcast and loved it. After all, who doesn't 445 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: love cheese? Many people do love cheese, including Holly and me, 446 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: she says. Just a quick question. In a comment question, 447 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 1: you spoke mostly about European cheese origins, and I was wondering, 448 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: is the cheese made in other parts of the world 449 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: just an offshoot of the cheese invented in Europe. Where 450 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: did you find any evidence of cheese being developed independently elsewhere? 451 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: Just curious. I once thought that the bagpipes were pretty 452 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: much just a Scottish thing, but was pretty interesting to 453 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: learn that bagpipe type instruments can be found in nearly 454 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: every region of the world. Perhaps an interesting podcast topic 455 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: comment and she links us to the to a video 456 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: and says that she has absolutely no Dutch connections and 457 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,160 Speaker 1: therefore probably has no business pointing this out. I disagree 458 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: with that point or something that you would like to 459 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: point out, please do it. However, when I heard you 460 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: refer to the Netherlands as Holland several times during this podcast, 461 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 1: this video recently posted on Facebook by a Dutch friend 462 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: of mine immediately came to mine. It didn't fact check 463 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: the source of this video, but found it both educational 464 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: and quite entertaining, so I thought i'd pass it along. 465 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: And the video is about the difference between Holland and 466 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: the Netherlands, so I'll talk about that first. First of all, 467 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: if we accidentally called Holland called the Netherlands Holland, We're sorry. Yeah, um, 468 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 1: I'm sure at some point that we did. Having watched 469 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 1: the video, it is entertaining and it is confusing to 470 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 1: people who do not live there, in much the same 471 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,199 Speaker 1: way as the nuances between the British Isles and the 472 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 1: United Kingdom and Great Britain maybe confusing to people who 473 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: don't live there, which is another thing that people have 474 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 1: written comments to us about before. So anytime we mess 475 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: that up, we're sorry. We're trying to get it right, 476 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: but I we may get it wrong. At some point. 477 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: On the cheese question, we talked about that in the 478 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: episode a little bit it and it was one of 479 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: those things that I was like, I'm gonna go double 480 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: check to make sure this is right, because what we 481 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: had talked about was that most of the cheese history 482 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 1: sort of started in the Mediterranean then branched out into 483 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 1: what is now Europe as people developed new methods for 484 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: controlling the spoilage of milk um with an exception being 485 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: in India, which had a long history of using milk 486 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 1: and to make butter and to to using cuisine and 487 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 1: made paneer, which is pretty much the only cheese that 488 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: is native to India. So I confirmed that's pretty much correct. 489 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: It was mostly what we think of as Western culture, 490 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 1: who were farming lots and lots of animals to use 491 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 1: for dairy purposes, and that just wasn't very prominent in 492 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: a lot of cultures outside of the Western world. I 493 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: did find that there are a few ethnic groups in 494 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: China that make cheese, and they these are real outliers 495 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: in the greater context of Chinese cuisine. They include the 496 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: Eye people and Tibetans, along with another a couple of 497 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 1: other Chinese ethnic groups, and all of these may have 498 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: learned how to make cheese from the buy. And in 499 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,400 Speaker 1: the paper that I read about it, it was it 500 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: was clearly so unusual that it's remarked on multiple times 501 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: how unusual is um And it really just boils down 502 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,959 Speaker 1: to that there were not many cultures that were raising 503 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 1: lots of animals that were both producing enough milk for 504 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: people to drink while still providing milk for young and 505 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: would allow themselves to be milked. So it's sort of 506 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 1: a cultural difference. You have to be raising herds of 507 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: milk producing animals in order to make cheese, and that 508 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: is why very much of the cheese history is from 509 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: a Western perspective. So I hope that clears that up. Yes, 510 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: you looked as though you had something that you wanted 511 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: to say. Truthfully, I was waxing rapsodic in my head 512 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: about cheese. We did them. We did some wrapsing exotic 513 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: about cheese in that episode too. Most people who have 514 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: written to us about that episode enjoyed that, so how 515 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: that makes me happy. 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