1 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's weekly podcast featuring conversations with 2 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm 3 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,639 Speaker 1: Cynthia Lyttleton, co editor in chief of Variety. Today's guest 4 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: is Neil Druckman, head of the prosperous gaming studio Naughty Dog. 5 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: Naughty Dog is home to the Last of Us and Uncharted, 6 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: two big games that have recently made the leap to 7 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: TV and film adaptations, respectively. That process of transformation was 8 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,480 Speaker 1: the main topic that my colleague Jennifer Mose and I 9 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:42,160 Speaker 1: probed with Truckman when the two of us interviewed him 10 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: on September eighteenth at Variety Presents Gaming on TikTok Leadership Summit. 11 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: This was a day of intimate conversations with video game 12 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: executives and influencers. Truckman packed up punch by offering a 13 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: ton of insights on how he approached working on the 14 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,639 Speaker 1: HBO adaptation of The Last of Us. He didn't give 15 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 1: us any spoilers for season two, but he did outline 16 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: the intricacies of connecting parts of the TV storyline to 17 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: a new iteration of the game that is upcoming, and 18 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: he shared his very human response to the first time 19 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:22,119 Speaker 1: he saw Last of Us star Pedro Pascal dressed up 20 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: and inhabiting the character of Joel that he created. That's 21 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: all coming up after the break, So don't go anywhere, 22 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 1: and we're back with a conversation with Naughty Dog head 23 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: of studio Neil Druckmann. I'd like to just start by 24 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: at the sort of top of the funnel question here 25 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: for you, in terms of you knew that Last of 26 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: Us was a very powerful game with an incredible fandom. 27 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: When the ideas started to really come together about could 28 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: this be a television series, could this be adapted into 29 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: other media? What were the what were the cautions that 30 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: you had, What were the red flags that you looked 31 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: for to say, wait, these aren't the right partners, And 32 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: what were the things that with HBO and was showing 33 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 1: a Craig Mason that made you feel like maybe these 34 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: are the right people to team with. 35 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, when we were making the game, no 36 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 2: one on that team expected it to be as big 37 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 2: as it turned out to be. You know, we were 38 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 2: coming on even at the game stage, at the games, 39 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 2: at the game stage, you know, we're coming on the 40 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 2: hills of uncharted that became very, very big, and I 41 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: remember when I was working on it, I'm like, oh, 42 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 2: we're never going to match on Charted. I just hope 43 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 2: this sells it all, Okay, so I get to do 44 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 2: this one more time. And then it did come out, 45 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 2: and it did really resonate with a lot of fans 46 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 2: in this very kind of intimate way that I've never 47 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 2: seen before and anything I've worked on that they really 48 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 2: connected with these characters in this storyline to such a 49 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 2: degree that meant so much to them, and likewise, on 50 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 2: the back of Naughy Doog and our team, it meant 51 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 2: so much to us. We want to make sure wherever 52 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 2: we team up with does it justice. And the cautionary 53 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 2: tales out there that there were, I think I could 54 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 2: say to this group, there are a lot of bad 55 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 2: game adaptations that you know, when we've hurt. When things 56 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 2: were moving from gaming to other medium there was always, 57 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 2: I think this mentality of and usually by people that 58 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 2: don't play video games, to say, how do we fix this? 59 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 2: How do we take this thing that's really popular and 60 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 2: use it as a like kind of like a marketing 61 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 2: launch pad and then tell our own story and do 62 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 2: our own thing and often those things would fall apart, 63 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 2: and when it falls apart, it hurts your franchise. It 64 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 2: hurts how people feel about this thing that's very dear 65 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 2: to them. So for me, you know, I wasn't head 66 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: of Nydog at the time, but as the kind of 67 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 2: like the creative director of it, it was just important 68 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 2: to honor it and honor the things that we felt 69 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 2: were special about it. And while there are certain like 70 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 2: different deals throughout the years that some were public and 71 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 2: some were not, we're just in talks. I think ultimately 72 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 2: those didn't work out because we just didn't have alignment 73 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 2: on what makes the Last of Us special and or 74 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: the people that were in charge just didn't understand it 75 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 2: or didn't love it in the way that we loved it. 76 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 2: That changed for me drastically one day when I had 77 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 2: lunch with Craig Mason on the heels of you know, 78 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 2: he wrote and created the show Chernobyl, which for my money, 79 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 2: is one of the best shows ever made, and I 80 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 2: just wanted to meet the guy and just gush about 81 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 2: how much I love that show and like just pick 82 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: his brain about how we put it together and how 83 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 2: he wrote it and how long was he working on it, 84 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 2: and as I'm there in this lunch with this guy 85 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 2: and he wanted to meet me as well, he started 86 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 2: talking about the Last of Us and talking to about 87 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 2: it in such an intimate, fundamental way of understanding what 88 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 2: it was that I'm like, oh my god, this guy 89 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 2: is in love with this game that we've made, and 90 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 2: it's you know, I'm sure he was a very smart guy, 91 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 2: so maybe he was already thinking ahead of where we 92 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 2: were at this lunch. But I asked him, you know, 93 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 2: you work with HBO. I adore everything HBO, like many 94 00:04:57,920 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 2: of the things HBO have done, so you are a 95 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,840 Speaker 2: big I'm a huge fan, going all the way back 96 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 2: to Soprano's Game of Thrones, The True Detective, take your pick. 97 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 2: I probably love it. And I asked them what would 98 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 2: it look like to adapt this to a show, because 99 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 2: up until that point, we're only thinking of it as 100 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 2: a movie because traditionally games have not been turned into shows. 101 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 2: This is actually a relatively new thing in gaming. And 102 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 2: he said, oh, it's very easy. We just go across 103 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 2: the street. I tell HBO I want that to be 104 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 2: my next project, and it becomes the next project, and 105 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 2: that's exactly what happened. We went. I had a meeting 106 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 2: with Casey and Franny over at. 107 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: HBO, the two top leaders, Casey Bloyse and Francesco Rci, 108 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: big wigs at HBO and really good people. 109 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 2: Too, and we walked them through the story and what 110 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 2: makes the loss of a special and they stood up 111 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 2: and shook our hands and said, let's do this. And 112 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 2: now we are and this show. And I think this 113 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: show has become a success because it's made by one 114 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 2: by really talented people. That's an porn ingredient that you 115 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 2: can never pass on, but it's really talented people that 116 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 2: love the source material in the way that we who've 117 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 2: created that source made it love it as well. And 118 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 2: that combination turned out to be the right kind of magic. 119 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 2: You know, there's timing and luck and a bunch of 120 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 2: other things, but for my money, that combination is what 121 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 2: has allowed the show to kind of break into the 122 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 2: zeitgeist in the way that it has. 123 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 3: So we have season two coming up, and I know 124 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 3: you all are working on that right now, so no spoilers, 125 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 3: but asking a question that the announcement the PlayStation PS 126 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 3: five pro has the last of US two remastered coming 127 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 3: out in it, so I know there will be a 128 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 3: lot of conversations surrounding the plot in Last of Us 129 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 3: Part two, and then how that might connect to season 130 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 3: two of HBOS the Last of Us. So I want 131 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 3: to know how you all work through what the game 132 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 3: has and what the on screen adaptation will have in 133 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 3: order to surprise people who are still players of the 134 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 3: game and coming to it not just to see cut 135 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 3: screens that they love in live action. 136 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. 137 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 2: Another mistake I think one could make in the opposite 138 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 2: direction is staying so close to the source material that 139 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 2: is built and designed and written for this other medium 140 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 2: that has strengths and weaknesses and trying to translate it 141 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 2: as is with no changes to this other medium that 142 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 2: has different strengths and weaknesses. So Craig and I the 143 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 2: way we approach it, you know, we start at the 144 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 2: beginning of the season. We break the season, and we 145 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 2: look at the game and we've started by For all, 146 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 2: our goal is to tell the best story possible, So 147 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 2: surprising people, while that's maybe a priority, it's not near 148 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 2: the top priority. Like again, what's important to us is 149 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 2: that we have interesting arcs, authentic characters, and then we're 150 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 2: building what we have and we have a certain ending 151 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 2: in mind that we're working towards. Those are all kind 152 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 2: of important ingredients for us. And then our process is 153 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 2: to just look at the content we have in the 154 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 2: game and say, Okay, what are things that we both 155 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 2: just overwhelming love and feel could be a as is 156 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 2: And we just kind of put like little check marks 157 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 2: by those index cards or whatever we're using at the 158 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 2: time mirror board to say, okay, those things could just 159 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 2: stay as is, and that becomes kind of building blocks. 160 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 2: And then there are things that were made for the 161 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 2: game that again let's use the Bill and Frank episode, 162 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 2: because I think a lot of people really resonated with 163 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 2: that on season one, and that one deviates quite a 164 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 2: bit from the game, and there are a couple of 165 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 2: reasons why we did that. Is one, in the game, 166 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 2: you get to know Bill through action, because the game 167 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 2: really relies on interactivity and action, and if we were 168 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 2: to translate that sequence of Bill, it might be okay, 169 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 2: it might even be good. It wouldn't be great because 170 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 2: that amount of action on screen, when you're not interacting 171 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 2: with it, you don't get the kind of tension or 172 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 2: immersion you would get in the game. So instead you 173 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:52,199 Speaker 2: just get spectacle and that spectacle eventually would wear thin, 174 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 2: so we knew that needed a big change. And then Craig, 175 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 2: to his credit, had this idea about these two characters 176 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 2: that are in the game, Billin and to tell a 177 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 2: different kind of story with those characters. You know, when 178 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 2: you come into the game, Frank is not alive anymore, 179 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 2: so we just we hint at this relationship between these 180 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 2: two men, and here instead we said, well, let's focus 181 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 2: on that relationship. Here we get to really focus on drama, 182 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 2: which is the thing that you know, speaking to the 183 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 2: earlier question about partners, HBO always encouraged us, and to 184 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 2: me this was such a relief when they said this, 185 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 2: only have as much violence, only have as much action 186 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 2: as you need to. We care about drama and characters, 187 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 2: and I'm like, those are the things that are important 188 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 2: to me and what are important to us when we 189 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 2: made the game. And that change has allowed us to, 190 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 2: I think, create a really beautiful episode that exists in 191 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 2: this medium and very much inspired but by the source material, 192 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 2: but it is very different. And that's the approach we're 193 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 2: taken in this season and potentially next season if we 194 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 2: do well, is to again look at the source material 195 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 2: flag where things can be adapted as is, recognize areas 196 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 2: that just don't work because they were designed for this 197 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 2: interactive medium, and then start brains on how do we change, 198 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 2: how do we expand this world? How will we build 199 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 2: in this world? And I think those are sometimes the 200 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 2: best surprises for players, when they like get to see 201 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 2: a backstory or like, oh, this was mentioned in the game, 202 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 2: and I'll get to see a full episode about this 203 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: thing again, like Bill and Frank, and it makes the 204 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:15,599 Speaker 2: game richer. To me, this is the beast kind of 205 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 2: adaptation is it makes both things richer at the same 206 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 2: time without diminishing one or the other. 207 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 3: That's very good to know, because if Last of Us 208 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 3: two Remastered looks as good as PlayStation tells me it 209 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 3: will on Pro five, then I don't need a remake, 210 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 3: shut under shot remake of that. 211 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I just it's so I can appreciate that 212 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 1: as a creative person. It's heartening for somebody to tell 213 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,199 Speaker 1: you at an outlet where they have all kinds of freedom, 214 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: it's not like, oh, no, you must ladle up thirty 215 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: percent of violence in this sequence. It's nice to know 216 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: the HBO, you know people from your account, they really 217 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: do always emphasize the character and that's that's the character 218 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: of in that episode that you referenced that even though 219 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: people like me hadn't spent all that much time with 220 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: them that episode, I'll never hear that Linda Ronstadt song 221 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: the same way again. I mean, and I have, I 222 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: have loved that song for a long time. That episode 223 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: that that episode was just so powerful and it is interesting. 224 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 1: I can, I can. I really appreciate what you're saying 225 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: about putting characters into so much action. As you were 226 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: saying that spectacle, it's the last twenty minutes of every 227 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: superhero movie where you're like, when will this thing end? 228 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:25,839 Speaker 1: And that I think that's a that's a really good 229 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: point that if you're in a game playing, it's a 230 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: lot different than you're just watching and like, okay, how 231 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,679 Speaker 1: many more? How many more blow ups? And you not 232 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: only wrote and you know, broke stories and wrote with 233 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: Craig and his team, but also directed an episode of 234 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: the first season, and you directed an episode of this 235 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:48,319 Speaker 1: upcoming season. In season one, you directed episode two, which 236 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: is for any show, especially in new show, episode two 237 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: is really where obviously you set things up in the 238 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: pilot or episode one, but episode two is where people 239 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: are decided, Okay, am I gonna stick stick with this? 240 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,319 Speaker 1: So that was a very game. That was a brave 241 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: choice on your end. How how is it for you 242 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: as a creative, as a writer and director working in 243 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: a medium where you know, you have a little flexibility 244 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: at HBO, but it's got to be within you know, 245 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: within a probably a fifty sixty you know, maybe sixty 246 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,079 Speaker 1: seventy minute format for you know, there is there is. 247 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: It's not as rigid as a traditional ad supported broadcast network, 248 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: but a television episode, even on HBO, is about sixty 249 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: seventy minutes. Was was working in that kind of linear 250 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,439 Speaker 1: storytelling versus a game where you have so many different 251 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: options to go. Was that an adjustment for you? Did 252 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: you like it? Did you find it to be sort 253 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,439 Speaker 1: of a discipline. I'm just curious how that process went 254 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 1: for you. 255 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe I approached navely and you're right, there is 256 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 2: there should have been more stress maybe when I directed 257 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 2: it than I probably took on. 258 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: Sometimes that's the best way to go into things. 259 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 2: Ignorance is bliss. Yeah, No, I remember I was there 260 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 2: more as a producer as again, so much about this 261 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,679 Speaker 2: relationship and this collaboration is about trust, and initially I 262 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 2: had very little, so I wanted to be more onset 263 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 2: and be much more involved in every step of the way, approved, 264 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 2: like every creative decision. And then I was able to 265 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 2: kind of ease up on that as I saw again 266 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 2: how much love and good taste this team had with 267 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 2: a source material. And then so I was there on 268 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 2: episode of one as a producer just to kind of 269 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,719 Speaker 2: observe and see, and the first thing that struck me is, 270 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 2: you know, I've never shot live action before, but I 271 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 2: had ten years of experience on video games, shooting in 272 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,319 Speaker 2: like a mocap stage with real actors and thinking about 273 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 2: shots and score, you know, on the game and the show. 274 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 2: I worked with Gustavo Santolaya, two time Academy Award, Winter Composed, 275 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 2: a brilliant guy. So what struck me was how similar 276 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: it was like the Van diagrams. They're not a perfect 277 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 2: circle on top of each other, but there's more overlapp 278 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 2: than I would have thought. And I realized, you know, 279 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,599 Speaker 2: going up and given art direction is going up and 280 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 2: given direction. Except in the studio, I hold a control 281 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 2: in my hand and I fly around and I give 282 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 2: art direction to the team on set, I use my 283 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 2: feet and I walk over and there's a team behind me, 284 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 2: and I give art direction. When I work with actors, 285 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 2: yeah they're not wearing mocap suits. They have costumes on. 286 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 2: But you know I'm talking to them about motivation and arcs, 287 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 2: and you know, there's blocking, there's there's a lot of 288 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 2: very very similar things. The biggest difference is you're right 289 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 2: in that we have we don't have that same constraint 290 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 2: for time on the game. The game has a lot 291 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 2: of flexibility of how long it takes because so much 292 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 2: of it is also dependent on how the play or 293 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 2: plays it. But even as much for the non interactive part, 294 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 2: they're kind of more cutscene filming sections, we have a 295 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 2: lot of flexibility of how long those will be. With 296 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 2: the show, there was a pretty strict guideline of how 297 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 2: long I need to be, but that was more thing 298 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 2: dictated by the script that we turned in that Craig 299 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 2: and I worked on. So that the biggest difference actually 300 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 2: is an order of operation. On the game. When we 301 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 2: shoot a scene and I shoot it with the actors, 302 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 2: I have some idea of shots in mind, but it 303 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 2: could change pretty drastically after the fact, So I could 304 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 2: shoot a scene with actors and which can shoot it 305 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 2: beginning to end. We don't have to worry about coverage 306 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 2: because we're getting all the angles all the time. It's 307 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 2: motion capture. We're getting three D data of their body, 308 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 2: of their face, and we have their voice. Then after 309 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 2: I'm done shooting that scene, I could be on that 310 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 2: same stage without the actors, with a virtual camera and 311 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 2: figure out, you know what that actually what I thought 312 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 2: was a white chat that actually that performance was so 313 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 2: nuanced that could become a close up. I can't do 314 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 2: that on the show. On the show, what we shoot 315 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 2: is what we have, So you have to do a 316 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 2: lot more planning of all these departments, of props, of 317 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 2: costumes again even props, costume, the weather, all these things 318 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 2: I could change after the fact in the game. On 319 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 2: the show. Again, what I get on camera, except for 320 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 2: some exception with the effects, is pretty much it. So 321 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 2: you're doing all this prep and then there's a little 322 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 2: bit of a high wire act as you say, action, 323 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 2: and you're hoping all these elements will come together, and 324 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 2: sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. And it's about 325 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 2: as a director, I think figuring out in the moment, 326 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 2: how do I course correct with very limited amount of time, 327 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 2: And there's a certain high you get from that because 328 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 2: again there's like this like rush that when you nailed that, 329 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 2: you nail that shot, or you nail that performance, you 330 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 2: know you got it. Then you don't have to go 331 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 2: after the fact and try to fix it. Anyway. I 332 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 2: think I rambled on for a while, But the difference 333 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 2: is there. 334 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: There's some really great practical examples. 335 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 3: How did you approach you know, looking at what the 336 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 3: fan engagement for a show would be versus games. The 337 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 3: gaming community is very, very vocal, so it's the television 338 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 3: fan community, but it's interesting to see the amount of 339 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 3: official marketing that goes behind a show and then the 340 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 3: amount of just on Mondays after the episode aired, people 341 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 3: doing video breakdowns on TikTok, people doing explainers of this 342 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 3: scene versus what it was in the game versus not 343 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 3: in the game, and the themes. 344 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: They see in this. 345 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 3: So how do you see that as the creator of something? 346 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 3: And do you see the difference in between how you 347 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 3: get reviewed and comments on games versus how you do 348 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 3: on the show, and kind of how you look at 349 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 3: those two things differently? 350 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: Were the same? Yeah? 351 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 2: Gamers, and maybe to a larger degree just genre fans. 352 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 2: I'm not sure what the word term for it is. 353 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 2: Can be quite particular, and if you don't give them 354 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 2: what they want, they'll let you know on every avenue 355 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 2: they can find. So you know, I know why there 356 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 2: was a lot of trepidation by last of US fans 357 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 2: when the show was announced, when casting was announced and 358 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 2: we're getting close to revealing it, because they've been abused 359 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 2: by bad adaptations. They've the history has told them this 360 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 2: is more likely than not we'll be bad. And I'd 361 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 2: like to believe, you know that we have proven to 362 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 2: them that we can treat this with care and we 363 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 2: can make something great with this that you don't have 364 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 2: to worry. But now I'm seeing you know that same 365 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 2: trepidation and worry as we get into season two and 366 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 2: worry about what we're going to change or keep and 367 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 2: all that conversation, And I think, what I find for myself, 368 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 2: the best thing we could do is just make something great. 369 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 2: Nothing will persuade them more than just if we make 370 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 2: something that will emotionally move them that they'll talk about. 371 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 2: And I personally liked the format quite a bit of 372 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 2: releasing episode a week by week because then it gets 373 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 2: people talking about it. And then I think Craig started 374 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 2: this at HBO. I'm not entirely sure with the idea 375 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 2: of a podcast that goes along with each show. I 376 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 2: think that started with Chernobyl, but don't quote me on 377 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 2: that that the podcast as well. It was a way 378 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,239 Speaker 2: for us to talk to those fans and explain to 379 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 2: them here's why we made certain changes on this episode, 380 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 2: here's what our thought process. Or even if something wasn't 381 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 2: necessarily clear in the episode, or like there was a 382 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 2: callback to something in the game, we could point that 383 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 2: out and kind of help guide the conversation around those episodes. 384 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 2: And I think that's a stroke of brilliant from Craig 385 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 2: to do that, so an HBO to do that, because 386 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 2: it's a way for us to maybe more broadly speak 387 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 2: to our fans than a tweet or something again really 388 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,479 Speaker 2: really short, and really get into depth about our creative 389 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 2: decisions and then marketing. Again. This is the love I 390 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 2: have for HBO is they're not just trying to say, Okay, 391 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 2: how do we reach the most people? They say how 392 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 2: do we reach the most people? And the way that's 393 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 2: really authentic to the show and the game that they're 394 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 2: aware that we're bringing in all these fans, millions of 395 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 2: fans from the game, and we have to honor what 396 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 2: they love about this thing and not say, Okay, if 397 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 2: you guys did this thing on the game, now we'll 398 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 2: show you how we do things on TV. It was 399 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 2: a very much a conversation, a collaboration with Naughty Dog 400 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 2: with PlayStation about how we advertise this thing. 401 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: Don't move a muscle. We'll be right back with more 402 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: from Neil Truckman after this break, and we're back with 403 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: more from Naughty Dog studio head Neil Druckman. As anybody 404 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: will tell you things, you know, things can be made 405 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: or made or broken in the marketing campaigns, that's for sure. 406 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,439 Speaker 1: Was it for you as a creator and you know, 407 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: as a as a person creating content out there when 408 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 1: you saw was it meaningful to you? When you saw, 409 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: even like the first Daily's or rushes of like Pedro 410 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 1: Pascal and Bella Ramsay inhabiting these characters, to see an 411 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: you know, an actor not a motion capture but an 412 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: actor in a costume inhabiting these characters, was that, I 413 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: don't want to say more meaningful, but did it did 414 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: it reach you in a different way than when you're 415 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: in the early stages and you're and you're you know, 416 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: reviewing a game. Was it was there something meaningful about that, 417 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 1: about seeing them for the first time, inhabiting those characters. 418 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 2: It was one of the most surreal experiences in my life. 419 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 2: I remember being on set for the first time, and 420 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 2: I'm in Joel's house and it looks like Joel's house 421 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 2: from the game. So, you know, I'm used to reviewing 422 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 2: the game on a on a TV screen of various sizes, 423 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 2: but I'm seeing a two D image and now all 424 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 2: of a sudden, I'm in it, and I'm sitting on 425 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 2: Joel's couch and Pedro comes walking by and he's dressed 426 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 2: like you, and I just try not to freak out 427 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 2: because I'm in my mind. I'm freaking out, and I 428 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 2: try to describe it to people, and I'm kind of 429 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 2: at a loss for wards. It's as if someone built 430 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 2: Disneyland just for me. And I get to the end 431 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 2: and then I remember I had to take a meeting 432 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 2: while I'm there in Canada for the next game. We're 433 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 2: working on it Nally Dog, so I have to jump 434 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 2: on a zoom meeting. So I'm looking for a quiet place. 435 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 2: So I go into Joel's daughter's room, Sarah's room, and 436 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 2: I closed the door, and then I finally I could, 437 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 2: I could, I could bring my mask down, and I'm 438 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 2: with like all my coworkers and I'm like, guys, look 439 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 2: at this, Look at the sheets, look at the posters, 440 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 2: look like they got all these details right. Look how 441 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 2: much they love the thing that we all made. And 442 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 2: then I kind of like straighten up and I go 443 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 2: back on set. But there was a moment this season. 444 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 2: I wish I could talk more about it, but I had. 445 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 2: I had a couple of coworkers come visit me on 446 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 2: set on the episode I was directing, and I'm like, 447 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 2: you guys have to see this. And I walked them 448 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 2: over to the set and we all had tears in 449 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,120 Speaker 2: our eyes and we got really emotional. 450 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: And I can feel the love and the care that 451 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: you have for this property. It is just exudes from me, 452 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: and that all of that, and the fact that Greig 453 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: was an enthusiastic like all of this now explains why 454 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: this worked. Is just the sheer love for you, just 455 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: the way you're describing this. 456 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 2: Look, I don't want to downplay the luck that the 457 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 2: right place in the right time plays a lot to 458 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:29,880 Speaker 2: do with it. But I just know that we made 459 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 2: something that we were all incredibly proud of, and whether 460 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,639 Speaker 2: it's succeeded or failed, we won, and that again, we 461 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 2: didn't compromise anything, like it's all our vision, it's all 462 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 2: the things we love so much about this thing is 463 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 2: what we made. 464 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,719 Speaker 1: Can I press you a little bit on Jenny's earlier 465 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,239 Speaker 1: question in terms of although we loved some spoilers, we're 466 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 1: not going to ask you for spoilers, but just in 467 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: the coordination of like season two and iterations of the game, 468 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: is there is that something that like people that are 469 00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: working on the game and people that are working on 470 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 1: the show are talking to each other. Is that an 471 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: important focus now that you do have this amazing property 472 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: in a different medium. 473 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 2: There's a constant communication between Naughty Dog, the developers of 474 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 2: the game, and all the production team on the show. 475 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 2: So for I was just on an email thread this 476 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 2: week where the VFX supervisor were now like entering posts 477 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 2: on these episodes. There's a location that's exactly like the 478 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 2: one in the game, and he was asking give us 479 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 2: all the concept art, give us all the three D 480 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 2: models you have with this area, and our team goes 481 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 2: and collects these things to send them over. We had 482 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 2: sometimes a design for one of the infected the monsters 483 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 2: on the show that for whatever reason, the show wasn't 484 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 2: getting quite right. We brought over one of our in 485 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 2: house concept arts from the game to work on it. 486 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 2: So when I'm on set and I'm working with the 487 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 2: props department and They're showing me this props or I'm 488 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 2: looking at the production design of all these sets, the 489 00:23:57,760 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 2: first past they do is they get like all the 490 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 2: content have thought all that. They kind of pore over 491 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 2: all the art books from the game and I see 492 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 2: them plastered all over the walls. That's their initial pass. 493 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 2: Then they deviate from there. But first I want to 494 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,679 Speaker 2: make sure they get the broad stokes right. As you know, 495 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,640 Speaker 2: as Craig always says, we have the most expensive Previas 496 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 2: ever made, which is the game. 497 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: That's pretty good. Jenny will have you a last question, 498 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: then we will open it up to a few questions 499 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: from the audience. 500 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 3: One more for you just being you know, we kind 501 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 3: of open talking about the difficulty of adapting a video 502 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 3: game and doing it well. But there have been some 503 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 3: really good adaptations since Last of Us kicked that off, 504 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 3: theirs fallout, and I want to know what you think 505 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 3: kind of the secret element is there, because one of 506 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 3: the things I think Hollywood has a hard time cracking 507 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 3: is the player element that exists in a game that 508 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 3: doesn't in these other mediums that you're accounting for. In 509 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 3: a game, someone is playing this, someone is making these 510 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,439 Speaker 3: choices and doing this, and giving that interactive quality and 511 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 3: that feeling to a film or TV show is much 512 00:24:58,880 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 3: more difficult. 513 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: So if there are ways. 514 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 3: That you all look to do that or make little 515 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 3: nods about it or what you've seen in other projects 516 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 3: to kind of lend itself to that element that you 517 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 3: can't get crossover directly from the medium. 518 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 2: I think followed there's another great example where the people 519 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 2: making the game are intimately involved with the show, and 520 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 2: then people making the show are fans of the game 521 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 2: and are just really good at what they do. To me, 522 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:29,679 Speaker 2: that's a good place to start to hit success. I 523 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 2: think sometimes again, it's usually from people that don't understand 524 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 2: the games. I remember reading a script for a game 525 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 2: adaptation and it says, oh, and in this moment, this 526 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 2: character jump in this particular way, and the players will 527 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 2: recognize it from this moment in the game. And I'm 528 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 2: reading that, I'm thinking no player cares about this. They 529 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 2: care about relationships and characters when they see an adaptation 530 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 2: that is. You know, a TV show is purely a 531 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,679 Speaker 2: story driven medium versus game. You know you have this, 532 00:25:57,880 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 2: you have almost two genres. You have the story genre, 533 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 2: you have the interactive genre, and those are often not 534 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 2: the same genre. The kind of interactive genre, I think 535 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 2: maybe just should guide you in the kind of actions 536 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 2: that you have. But you can't be a slave to 537 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 2: it because often you're breaking reality in the game to 538 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 2: create a certain feeling through the interactivity that when you 539 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 2: translate to here and you don't have that interactivity, if 540 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 2: you just translate as is, it will feel off, it 541 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 2: will feel strange, it'll feel and we're trying to tell 542 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 2: a realistic story, it'll feel unrealistic. So that's just I 543 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:35,120 Speaker 2: think trusting that again, there is a difference between these 544 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 2: mediums and just certain things just cannot translate. 545 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 3: I can't go rummage over there as much as I 546 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 3: want to in that scene. 547 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: Awesome, Thank you so much. Let's see anybody in the 548 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: audience have any questions for Neil, we have some man, 549 00:26:52,400 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: the microphones are coming around. Thank you. 550 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,719 Speaker 4: A big fan of the show and the game. It 551 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 4: wasn't maybe the first, but it was certainly an early 552 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 4: part of the storytelling genre within gaming. I was just 553 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 4: curious to see where you got to in that style 554 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 4: and whether you took your leads from TV or other gaming. 555 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 4: That led to this kind of storytelling approach for the game. 556 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 2: Uh W fifty seconds. I grew up playing video games 557 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 2: as far back as I could form memories, and my 558 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 2: favorite games were all point and click action adventure game 559 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 2: not even action, just adventure games, and those were very 560 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,880 Speaker 2: story driven. Those are games like King Squest, Space Quest, 561 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 2: The Secret of Monkey Island, anything. Lucas Arts released those again, 562 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,439 Speaker 2: those games are just funny and they're so well written. 563 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 2: I just fell in love with those. Then the next 564 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 2: kind of big milestone for me I can think of 565 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 2: in gaming was Half Life, where they told these really 566 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 2: compelling stories with characters and you, like, it's a first 567 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 2: person shooter, so you're experiencing the story as you're moving around, 568 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 2: but you have a character in front of you that 569 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 2: turns to you and talks to you and sometimes says 570 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 2: something to you and winks at you, and you know, like, oh, 571 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 2: if I had the camera turn around one hundred and 572 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 2: eight degrees, I would have missed that wink. That wink 573 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 2: felt more special because I saw it, and so that 574 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 2: really stuck with me. And you know, and when we 575 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 2: started working on the Last of Us, one of our 576 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 2: goals was you play as Joel for part of the game, 577 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 2: and then you play as Ellie for another part of 578 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 2: the game. And we wanted with specifically with Ellie, how 579 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 2: do we make this AI driven character feel like a 580 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 2: real person, Like you're on this adventure with another character 581 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 2: that reacts like a human being. Not so for one 582 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 2: of the decisions we made like you can't order Ellie 583 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 2: around because she won't listen to you. So she'll do 584 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 2: her own thing and often will surprise you in a 585 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 2: way that a teenage will surprise you. And we put 586 00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 2: so much care and effort and so much as you know, 587 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 2: as Johnson's performance as that character in the game just 588 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 2: brought that character to life. But I'm drawing on decades 589 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 2: of history of people, you know, pioneers in this medium 590 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 2: that we're still figuring it out. Like there's still stuff 591 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 2: we're doing in our game that we're not quite sure 592 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 2: is going to work. We have a lot of theories, 593 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 2: and that's another big difference between TV and games. Like 594 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 2: with TV, it's like in a lot of ways, this 595 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 2: art form has been perfected and now it's about how 596 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 2: how do you get creative with these tools that you know, 597 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 2: I've had like so long to get perfected. With games, 598 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 2: it still feels like they're wild West in some ways 599 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 2: that we have theories about how we tell stories in 600 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 2: this or how we we do certain things with this 601 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 2: combination of interactivity. And the other thing that's unique about 602 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 2: games is it encompasses almost all other art You like 603 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 2: a certain painting you can put in the game. There's 604 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 2: a novel that you like, you can't put that the 605 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 2: whole novel in the game. You could put whole movies 606 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 2: or TV shows inside the game. Now you wouldn't do 607 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 2: that because it would get very boring, but you could. 608 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 2: So that's why there's it's just palette of storytelling that 609 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 2: is very exciting to me as we go forward with 610 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 2: our next games at Naughty Dog, and again theories that 611 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 2: I'm very excited to see whether they work or not. 612 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: It's a real testament to all that you have going 613 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: on that we didn't even get into. We barely talked 614 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: about on Chartered. We haven't talked about your theme park work, 615 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: your graphic novels. Folks, There's a lot going on here. 616 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: Does anybody have a last killer question to wrap it up? 617 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 2: Killer? High pressure? 618 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: Hello? Hi. 619 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 5: As a huge fan of the series and an even 620 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 5: bigger fan of the game, I'm so excited to ask 621 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 5: this at TikTok. But also personally, we saw such a 622 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 5: huge revisit to the game after this series launched, even 623 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 5: with the change in Bill and Frank's storyline, and also 624 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,959 Speaker 5: a revisit to the second game. So if you are 625 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 5: able to share for season two, and if not for 626 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 5: future adaptations, how are you thinking about that community revisiting 627 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 5: your games after coming from the show? 628 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:09,479 Speaker 2: I think there's something I've really enjoyed. Thank you for that, 629 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 2: by the way, which is one of my goals when 630 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 2: making this show, because again, we have enough success at 631 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 2: I Dog we don't need to make this adaptation, so 632 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 2: the only reason to do it would be to make 633 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 2: something really great. And as someone that loves video games 634 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 2: so much, I really wanted this experience of having someone 635 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 2: watched the show and really enjoy it. And then here, wait, 636 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 2: that's based on a video game, you mean like Pong 637 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 2: and pac Man and stuff, And then go with me 638 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 2: and then go into games and check them out and 639 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 2: see this rich history of storytelling in this other medium. 640 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 2: And what I've really enjoyed now is sometimes there are 641 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 2: these people that have watched the show and then when 642 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 2: to play the game and talked about what a cool experience. 643 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 2: And in fact, the show sometimes hints at stuff that 644 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 2: we just don't have time to get into the show 645 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 2: that the game can and vice versa that I think 646 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 2: if you sperience both, they're both richer fourth and I 647 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 2: love hearing that experience from people. They tell me, like, 648 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 2: I watched the show and that I play the game, 649 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 2: and I really liked how different the bill sequences, and 650 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 2: that gave me this other insight into him. And there's 651 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 2: stuff in this season that I'm really excited by it. Again, 652 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 2: there's stuff that we hinted at. One scene in particular 653 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 2: comes to mind that I think fans of the game 654 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 2: will eat up because it really kind of tells you 655 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 2: a lot of backstory of this important character that there 656 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 2: wasn't really a way for us to even do that 657 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 2: in the game. I don't know if I answered your question, 658 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 2: but I just went on that road and maybe I 659 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 2: got some more. 660 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: Interesting Well, we thank you. Thank you for that answer, 661 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: and Neil, thank you for your time here. Obviously, this 662 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: is a very fertile topic that we will be coming 663 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: back to in terms of the trans media of it all. 664 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: And really, I think for us really really focused on 665 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: understanding how gaming is its own medium and it took because, 666 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: as you say, the understanding of the game led to 667 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: the successful adaptation. That much is pretty so once again, 668 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: congratulations on your success. We can't wait for season two, 669 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: and thank you for being here. Thanks for listening. Be 670 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: sure to leave us a review at Apple Podcasts or 671 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: Amazon Music. We love to hear from listeners. Please go 672 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 1: to Variety dot com and sign up for the free 673 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: weekly Strictly Business newsletter, and don't forget to tune in 674 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: next week for another episode of Strictly Business.