1 00:00:14,836 --> 00:00:29,356 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hi, I'm Phil Donahue and I'm Marlowe Thomas, and 2 00:00:29,476 --> 00:00:32,396 Speaker 1: we're going on a series of double dates to find 3 00:00:32,436 --> 00:00:40,076 Speaker 1: out what makes a marriage last. What a kick it 4 00:00:40,316 --> 00:00:42,796 Speaker 1: was to head down to the nation's capital for a 5 00:00:42,916 --> 00:00:47,516 Speaker 1: visit with Bob Woodward and Elsa Walsh, two journalists under 6 00:00:47,596 --> 00:00:51,276 Speaker 1: one roof. As an old newsman myself, I felt right 7 00:00:51,316 --> 00:00:54,076 Speaker 1: at home. You and Bob began talking about how to 8 00:00:54,116 --> 00:00:57,396 Speaker 1: save the world the moment we walked in. They live 9 00:00:57,476 --> 00:01:00,836 Speaker 1: in a beautiful section of Georgetown. Bob bought this great 10 00:01:00,836 --> 00:01:03,636 Speaker 1: colonial house just a few years before he and Elsa met, 11 00:01:04,156 --> 00:01:07,556 Speaker 1: but together they've turned it into a lovely home. We 12 00:01:07,556 --> 00:01:11,436 Speaker 1: were greeted by Maggie, the miniature poodle, who followed us 13 00:01:11,476 --> 00:01:13,716 Speaker 1: from room to room as we set up our gear, 14 00:01:14,276 --> 00:01:17,516 Speaker 1: just like a cub reporter. They had laid out some 15 00:01:17,596 --> 00:01:22,036 Speaker 1: delicious snacks, which I'm afraid we dove into somewhat noisily 16 00:01:22,076 --> 00:01:25,916 Speaker 1: at times. Once we settled in, also talked about growing 17 00:01:25,996 --> 00:01:29,076 Speaker 1: up as one of six kids, with four sisters and 18 00:01:29,156 --> 00:01:32,836 Speaker 1: a brother. I was surprised to learn that, just like Marlowe, 19 00:01:32,836 --> 00:01:35,956 Speaker 1: as a young girl, she never dreamt of getting married. 20 00:01:37,676 --> 00:01:41,676 Speaker 1: My parents were Irish immigrants. My mom was actually eight 21 00:01:41,676 --> 00:01:44,156 Speaker 1: months pregnant with me when she came with my dad. 22 00:01:44,276 --> 00:01:47,116 Speaker 1: My dad was a civil engineer and he lived sort 23 00:01:47,116 --> 00:01:48,676 Speaker 1: of all over the world and wanted to go to 24 00:01:48,716 --> 00:01:51,636 Speaker 1: San Francisco for a year. He thought it would be fun. 25 00:01:52,316 --> 00:01:58,516 Speaker 1: My dad was bipolar and handsome, intelligent, but you know, 26 00:01:58,636 --> 00:02:01,676 Speaker 1: pretty up and down rudy. So she had a rough 27 00:02:01,716 --> 00:02:04,676 Speaker 1: time with your father. Yes, I know it had a 28 00:02:04,676 --> 00:02:10,076 Speaker 1: lot of fun, but he would be difficult. And my mom, 29 00:02:10,276 --> 00:02:13,156 Speaker 1: she was just this sort of safe harbor of both 30 00:02:13,236 --> 00:02:17,196 Speaker 1: love and fun and acceptance. And when I think about 31 00:02:17,956 --> 00:02:20,676 Speaker 1: marriage and what was important that I learned from her 32 00:02:20,916 --> 00:02:25,356 Speaker 1: was just that you're in it and you stay in it. 33 00:02:25,436 --> 00:02:27,156 Speaker 1: Is that what you didn't want to get married because 34 00:02:27,276 --> 00:02:29,876 Speaker 1: you have to stick with it forever? No, you know, 35 00:02:31,716 --> 00:02:33,636 Speaker 1: you always like to think of yourself as being sort 36 00:02:33,676 --> 00:02:36,556 Speaker 1: of an independent operator with all your own thoughts being 37 00:02:36,636 --> 00:02:40,396 Speaker 1: very original. But all the great icons at that time, 38 00:02:40,436 --> 00:02:43,516 Speaker 1: you know, Gloria Steinem's, you know that girl, they weren't 39 00:02:43,516 --> 00:02:46,236 Speaker 1: getting married. You know, that was being strong, and that 40 00:02:46,356 --> 00:02:49,716 Speaker 1: was being adventurous, and so I think I wanted to 41 00:02:49,716 --> 00:02:53,516 Speaker 1: be part of that movement. So when I met Bob, 42 00:02:54,876 --> 00:02:57,156 Speaker 1: I didn't want to marry you, but I wanted to 43 00:02:57,196 --> 00:03:01,556 Speaker 1: be with you. You met in the Yes, were you 44 00:03:01,636 --> 00:03:07,876 Speaker 1: smitten right away? Smitten is an understatement. Ben Bradley's wife, 45 00:03:07,916 --> 00:03:13,036 Speaker 1: Sally Quinn Rudder in to meet the editors. I was 46 00:03:13,516 --> 00:03:17,276 Speaker 1: the local aditor and you you know, there's just something 47 00:03:20,076 --> 00:03:22,316 Speaker 1: How old were you then? I was really young? You 48 00:03:22,356 --> 00:03:28,596 Speaker 1: were twenty two and you were thirty seven or sixty 49 00:03:28,796 --> 00:03:33,076 Speaker 1: sixty or thirty seven, and just hand over heels in 50 00:03:33,236 --> 00:03:40,316 Speaker 1: love physically, emotionally and the added benefit of the risk. 51 00:03:40,436 --> 00:03:43,796 Speaker 1: Now you may not agree because you sometimes didn't like 52 00:03:44,156 --> 00:03:50,396 Speaker 1: the secrecy. No, that's true, but I understood it. Why 53 00:03:50,396 --> 00:03:53,236 Speaker 1: were you secret? Were you were married? Right? No? But 54 00:03:53,716 --> 00:03:56,716 Speaker 1: I wasn't working for him, but he was in the 55 00:03:56,836 --> 00:04:02,956 Speaker 1: chain of command, and you know, being in journalism, it 56 00:04:03,076 --> 00:04:06,236 Speaker 1: was like a hotbed of gossip all the time. Yeah. 57 00:04:06,396 --> 00:04:09,236 Speaker 1: Part of it is so much of what you you 58 00:04:09,476 --> 00:04:14,556 Speaker 1: during your reporting process is secretive and you can't really 59 00:04:14,556 --> 00:04:18,236 Speaker 1: talk about it with a lot of people. And you 60 00:04:18,316 --> 00:04:20,556 Speaker 1: can trust you you can trust me. Yeah. I mean 61 00:04:20,596 --> 00:04:23,156 Speaker 1: one of the things we were talking about is that 62 00:04:23,516 --> 00:04:26,756 Speaker 1: we were just this weekend. Bob was saying, when did 63 00:04:26,876 --> 00:04:30,556 Speaker 1: I tell you about deep throat when did I tell 64 00:04:30,596 --> 00:04:34,876 Speaker 1: you who it was? Again? Was it like eighty two 65 00:04:35,516 --> 00:04:37,596 Speaker 1: or eighty three? I said, no, I think it was 66 00:04:37,676 --> 00:04:41,796 Speaker 1: eighty one. And I think we've been going out and 67 00:04:41,836 --> 00:04:47,436 Speaker 1: he had a relationship for maybe a year and we 68 00:04:47,436 --> 00:04:50,276 Speaker 1: were out to dinner on in the street, remember then, Yeah, 69 00:04:50,316 --> 00:04:53,356 Speaker 1: and you asked these who was deep throat? And I said, well, 70 00:04:53,876 --> 00:04:56,676 Speaker 1: you know, wow, you told her. You know how many 71 00:04:56,716 --> 00:04:59,916 Speaker 1: people had you tolled up till then? Carl and brad Lin? 72 00:05:00,236 --> 00:05:03,276 Speaker 1: And that was it? So why did you trust her? 73 00:05:05,076 --> 00:05:08,516 Speaker 1: Suck her? I mean it just be be around her 74 00:05:09,436 --> 00:05:12,236 Speaker 1: when you see it. You must have been really impressed 75 00:05:12,276 --> 00:05:14,396 Speaker 1: that he trusted you with I was. I was, really 76 00:05:14,436 --> 00:05:16,876 Speaker 1: I was. I was surprised you told you, weren't. I 77 00:05:16,956 --> 00:05:20,516 Speaker 1: was very say we never talked about it afterwards or no, 78 00:05:20,636 --> 00:05:24,276 Speaker 1: I thought you might take aback. I just love that 79 00:05:24,316 --> 00:05:27,836 Speaker 1: he instinctively trusted her with one of the biggest secrets 80 00:05:27,836 --> 00:05:31,516 Speaker 1: in American history. I got the sense that their connection 81 00:05:31,556 --> 00:05:33,996 Speaker 1: to each other has a lot to do with their 82 00:05:34,076 --> 00:05:39,876 Speaker 1: childhoods Elsie had this incredibly stable family, even though her 83 00:05:39,876 --> 00:05:47,276 Speaker 1: father was bipolar. But my family was not stable at all. 84 00:05:47,356 --> 00:05:50,756 Speaker 1: My parents were divorced when I was quite young, about 85 00:05:50,796 --> 00:05:54,716 Speaker 1: twelve or thirteen, and her mother had been in the 86 00:05:54,836 --> 00:05:59,556 Speaker 1: hospital and had a nervous breakdown. And my father came 87 00:05:59,636 --> 00:06:03,916 Speaker 1: to say that my mother is out of the hospital 88 00:06:04,036 --> 00:06:08,436 Speaker 1: now and she's married Tom Barnes, who was my father's 89 00:06:08,516 --> 00:06:16,756 Speaker 1: first best friend. And I remember thinking to myself, Ah, 90 00:06:16,796 --> 00:06:20,556 Speaker 1: you're in this alone. Well, you can have a mother 91 00:06:20,716 --> 00:06:24,716 Speaker 1: and a father and friends, and but you're in it alone. 92 00:06:24,836 --> 00:06:28,156 Speaker 1: And it was a very kind of just, you know, 93 00:06:28,476 --> 00:06:30,796 Speaker 1: when you're voice a few think your mom's kind of 94 00:06:30,956 --> 00:06:36,596 Speaker 1: loved you enough to not leave the marriage and marry 95 00:06:36,676 --> 00:06:43,396 Speaker 1: somebody else, that alone, my father's best friend. And it 96 00:06:43,676 --> 00:06:49,236 Speaker 1: was so painful but also a kind of oh okay, 97 00:06:50,036 --> 00:06:54,196 Speaker 1: I'm I'm in this alone. And I got to figure 98 00:06:54,276 --> 00:07:00,316 Speaker 1: it out. And after college, I was in the Navy, 99 00:07:00,436 --> 00:07:04,556 Speaker 1: and I because I signed up from Naval ROTC, and 100 00:07:04,636 --> 00:07:10,996 Speaker 1: I married a woman who was my high school sweetheart. 101 00:07:11,076 --> 00:07:14,996 Speaker 1: As they say, she was a very smart, lovely person. 102 00:07:15,156 --> 00:07:20,196 Speaker 1: And when I was off on a you know, marriage 103 00:07:20,316 --> 00:07:25,436 Speaker 1: just felt apart and it was a kind of second 104 00:07:25,516 --> 00:07:30,476 Speaker 1: act of the oh, okay, we're in this alone. And 105 00:07:30,516 --> 00:07:37,116 Speaker 1: then after Nixon resigned, I was in a romance and 106 00:07:37,476 --> 00:07:42,876 Speaker 1: got married a second time, and we had Tally and 107 00:07:43,076 --> 00:07:49,436 Speaker 1: that didn't last, and I didn't last because she essentially 108 00:07:50,156 --> 00:07:54,716 Speaker 1: we had Tali and left with Tally, and so that 109 00:07:54,796 --> 00:07:58,876 Speaker 1: was kind of the third act of Oh, okay, you're 110 00:07:58,916 --> 00:08:02,716 Speaker 1: in this alone. So when we started going out and 111 00:08:03,156 --> 00:08:07,876 Speaker 1: when my mother died, I wanted to get married, but 112 00:08:08,036 --> 00:08:13,916 Speaker 1: I was embarrassed to propose it to you because I 113 00:08:14,076 --> 00:08:19,636 Speaker 1: felt I'd had all of these two earlier failed marriages 114 00:08:20,356 --> 00:08:24,796 Speaker 1: and you were, you know, wonderful. And we were married 115 00:08:24,956 --> 00:08:28,396 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty nine. I think I was surprised when 116 00:08:28,396 --> 00:08:32,276 Speaker 1: Bob asked me to marry him because it was unexpected. 117 00:08:32,676 --> 00:08:35,676 Speaker 1: And I remember we've been together that long then, nine years, 118 00:08:35,876 --> 00:08:38,676 Speaker 1: and it was unexpected. I was unexpected. We were out 119 00:08:38,676 --> 00:08:40,756 Speaker 1: at our house in Maryland and we were sitting out 120 00:08:40,796 --> 00:08:44,276 Speaker 1: on this little small sun room that we have, and 121 00:08:44,476 --> 00:08:49,156 Speaker 1: we were talking about his mom who had died, and 122 00:08:49,196 --> 00:08:53,196 Speaker 1: he said, um, you know, nothing would make me happier 123 00:08:53,236 --> 00:08:57,076 Speaker 1: than if you would marry me. And instead of feelings 124 00:08:57,076 --> 00:09:02,316 Speaker 1: are shocked, I was so excited. So ever since then, 125 00:09:02,436 --> 00:09:06,116 Speaker 1: I really I loved being married. I mean, I love 126 00:09:06,196 --> 00:09:09,476 Speaker 1: being married to Bob, but I loved the idea of 127 00:09:10,036 --> 00:09:14,996 Speaker 1: saying to each other and to other people that we're 128 00:09:15,116 --> 00:09:21,996 Speaker 1: in it together. That realization is liberating and quite empowering, 129 00:09:22,436 --> 00:09:27,636 Speaker 1: because until that moment it was kind of you know, 130 00:09:27,956 --> 00:09:32,316 Speaker 1: the people are going to desert you, the unexpected, the 131 00:09:33,276 --> 00:09:37,276 Speaker 1: surprise after all those people leaving. Did you have a 132 00:09:37,356 --> 00:09:42,156 Speaker 1: feeling that this is the one who wouldn't leave? Sure? 133 00:09:42,876 --> 00:09:48,996 Speaker 1: Because she said so and acted so, and what she 134 00:09:49,276 --> 00:09:54,196 Speaker 1: did it. I mean we were talking somewhat recently and 135 00:09:54,476 --> 00:09:58,316 Speaker 1: I mentioned something about you don't know when people are 136 00:09:58,436 --> 00:10:03,036 Speaker 1: going to fail you, or you are going to fail yourself. 137 00:10:03,116 --> 00:10:06,516 Speaker 1: And I thought of Lord Jim when he jumps, and 138 00:10:06,756 --> 00:10:12,396 Speaker 1: remember what you say? Yes, I said, I don't. That's great. 139 00:10:12,796 --> 00:10:16,516 Speaker 1: Elsa not only didn't leave, she dove into the relationship 140 00:10:16,596 --> 00:10:19,836 Speaker 1: head first, and over the years as a writer herself, 141 00:10:20,196 --> 00:10:23,916 Speaker 1: she has become an invaluable contributor to Bob's work. She 142 00:10:24,476 --> 00:10:27,796 Speaker 1: would look at sections, look at chapters, look at the 143 00:10:27,836 --> 00:10:33,116 Speaker 1: book made her enterprise and said, this is important. You 144 00:10:33,156 --> 00:10:35,956 Speaker 1: should do this. Did you do every note she gave you? 145 00:10:36,076 --> 00:10:41,476 Speaker 1: Or did you not know? Of course? Now you were cookie, 146 00:10:42,876 --> 00:10:46,756 Speaker 1: but enough for good. But we never thought about it. 147 00:10:46,836 --> 00:10:50,596 Speaker 1: But she's so interesting. Over the period of a year, 148 00:10:50,796 --> 00:10:54,036 Speaker 1: at least, you never really thought about work. Well, I 149 00:10:54,036 --> 00:10:57,156 Speaker 1: thank you. And I very early on in our relationship, 150 00:10:57,236 --> 00:11:01,676 Speaker 1: decided that when we were looking at each other's work, 151 00:11:02,436 --> 00:11:05,636 Speaker 1: we would always be honest. We wouldn't be cruel. You know, 152 00:11:05,796 --> 00:11:09,236 Speaker 1: you hand something to someone that you've broked on and 153 00:11:09,396 --> 00:11:12,116 Speaker 1: you think you weren't always happy. There was one point 154 00:11:12,116 --> 00:11:14,996 Speaker 1: where you were doing this the book and you brought 155 00:11:15,036 --> 00:11:19,716 Speaker 1: me down some new chapter and I worked on it 156 00:11:19,756 --> 00:11:24,596 Speaker 1: and you came down anyone. I thought it was great, 157 00:11:25,956 --> 00:11:29,156 Speaker 1: but she was right, yeah, you know, and as I 158 00:11:29,316 --> 00:11:35,116 Speaker 1: realized it would not have been done is completely or 159 00:11:35,556 --> 00:11:42,956 Speaker 1: is logically without her. That's great, Elsa. As a way, 160 00:11:44,676 --> 00:11:49,596 Speaker 1: it's the power of empathy, of listening, and the power 161 00:11:49,676 --> 00:11:53,396 Speaker 1: of questioning. When I come back from an interview, it's 162 00:11:53,476 --> 00:11:56,996 Speaker 1: like a mini interrogation. Also doesn't oh yeah to me, 163 00:11:57,556 --> 00:12:04,236 Speaker 1: and I sometimes bristle added, But I've come to realize 164 00:12:04,436 --> 00:12:08,916 Speaker 1: it helps me understand what I'm working on, and that 165 00:12:09,436 --> 00:12:13,996 Speaker 1: happens between the two of us most days we're together. 166 00:12:15,196 --> 00:12:19,876 Speaker 1: I realized else's a therapist doesn't have a license for 167 00:12:20,116 --> 00:12:27,036 Speaker 1: practices my primary patients primary. I think one of the 168 00:12:27,156 --> 00:12:32,956 Speaker 1: things that we've always sort of felt is that we're 169 00:12:32,996 --> 00:12:38,596 Speaker 1: a team professionally and personally, and that we've always been 170 00:12:38,596 --> 00:12:43,356 Speaker 1: really involved in each other's work. With my work, there's 171 00:12:43,396 --> 00:12:48,716 Speaker 1: probably been no person who comes anywhere close to being 172 00:12:48,796 --> 00:12:52,996 Speaker 1: the sort of my advisor, the encourager, the person who says, 173 00:12:53,076 --> 00:12:55,996 Speaker 1: you know, take a leap, you know. But when you 174 00:12:56,316 --> 00:13:01,156 Speaker 1: talk about doing Divined Lives, your book about the three women, 175 00:13:01,596 --> 00:13:04,556 Speaker 1: I just listened. I think you and I at that 176 00:13:04,636 --> 00:13:08,676 Speaker 1: point had been married three or four years, but we 177 00:13:08,756 --> 00:13:13,796 Speaker 1: had been together for twelve years, and you started working 178 00:13:13,876 --> 00:13:16,956 Speaker 1: on the book as a kind of how I was 179 00:13:16,996 --> 00:13:18,676 Speaker 1: trying to figure out my own life. I was trying 180 00:13:18,716 --> 00:13:20,436 Speaker 1: to figure out what was the next stage for me, 181 00:13:21,276 --> 00:13:23,636 Speaker 1: should we have a child, if we not have a child. 182 00:13:23,756 --> 00:13:28,996 Speaker 1: And I'm a very deliberate person, probably too much though, 183 00:13:29,076 --> 00:13:30,956 Speaker 1: And you would always say to me, well, who are 184 00:13:30,956 --> 00:13:32,636 Speaker 1: the women you know who are happy? It's kind of 185 00:13:32,676 --> 00:13:35,716 Speaker 1: like your question, who are the people who have marriages 186 00:13:35,756 --> 00:13:39,796 Speaker 1: that last? And why? And you actually you said, why 187 00:13:39,836 --> 00:13:42,436 Speaker 1: didn't you go out and talk to people? Why don't 188 00:13:42,476 --> 00:13:44,956 Speaker 1: you sort of figure it out? And did that help 189 00:13:44,956 --> 00:13:47,476 Speaker 1: you want to become a mother? It did, yeah, very much. So, 190 00:13:47,796 --> 00:13:52,356 Speaker 1: and you came up with what are the ingredients of 191 00:13:52,396 --> 00:13:56,316 Speaker 1: a balanced life for a woman? So what would do everything. 192 00:13:56,436 --> 00:13:59,956 Speaker 1: It was creating a home, creating a nest for yourself, 193 00:14:00,476 --> 00:14:04,476 Speaker 1: time with your friends, relationship in a marriage and a family, 194 00:14:04,876 --> 00:14:08,316 Speaker 1: your work life, your sense of self of who you are, 195 00:14:09,196 --> 00:14:11,716 Speaker 1: and also just time to be by yourself. I like 196 00:14:11,796 --> 00:14:15,236 Speaker 1: to be by myself a lot, which is probably a 197 00:14:15,316 --> 00:14:18,476 Speaker 1: good thing on our marriage, right, You'll like to be 198 00:14:18,516 --> 00:14:23,076 Speaker 1: by yourself too. You rattle around, well, I rattle around, 199 00:14:23,316 --> 00:14:29,196 Speaker 1: and I waste time. We'll have more. After a quick break, 200 00:14:41,236 --> 00:14:45,076 Speaker 1: we're back to our conversation with Bob Woodward and Elsa Walsh. 201 00:14:45,596 --> 00:14:48,996 Speaker 1: They've been together for forty years, so Marlow threw a 202 00:14:49,076 --> 00:14:53,116 Speaker 1: real Woodward type question, what's the biggest mistake you've ever 203 00:14:53,196 --> 00:14:54,996 Speaker 1: made in your marriage? And how have you come back 204 00:14:55,036 --> 00:15:00,156 Speaker 1: from it? I can remember one particular incident. This was 205 00:15:00,236 --> 00:15:04,116 Speaker 1: when you were working on The Commanders, which was his 206 00:15:04,196 --> 00:15:08,476 Speaker 1: book about the Pentagon Colin Powell First Goal four and 207 00:15:09,116 --> 00:15:12,956 Speaker 1: Bob every weekend week go to Maryland. He had work 208 00:15:13,036 --> 00:15:19,476 Speaker 1: to do and always busy. After you had finished the 209 00:15:19,636 --> 00:15:22,836 Speaker 1: reporting on the book and turned it in but it 210 00:15:22,916 --> 00:15:25,596 Speaker 1: was not yet published, we were out there for a 211 00:15:25,676 --> 00:15:29,876 Speaker 1: weekend and I got up in the morning and I said, oh, 212 00:15:29,956 --> 00:15:35,596 Speaker 1: I was going to the store, and I didn't come 213 00:15:35,596 --> 00:15:39,156 Speaker 1: back for about six or seven hours. Right, Oh my gosh. 214 00:15:39,196 --> 00:15:42,556 Speaker 1: This was before cell phones. And I got back and 215 00:15:42,676 --> 00:15:47,436 Speaker 1: you couldn't decide whether you were furious or you were relieved. 216 00:15:47,996 --> 00:15:50,356 Speaker 1: And you were almost crying because you said you were 217 00:15:52,156 --> 00:15:54,916 Speaker 1: planning my funeral. You were deciding whether you should bring 218 00:15:54,956 --> 00:15:58,196 Speaker 1: the dogs to the funeral or not. And I looked 219 00:15:58,196 --> 00:16:00,156 Speaker 1: at him. I was like, oh my god, it's crazy, 220 00:16:00,356 --> 00:16:06,036 Speaker 1: what's going on here? And he said, well, you never called. 221 00:16:06,116 --> 00:16:08,596 Speaker 1: You never told me. And I said, well, but you've 222 00:16:08,596 --> 00:16:11,796 Speaker 1: been big. See, you've been busy every weekend for the 223 00:16:11,876 --> 00:16:14,116 Speaker 1: last year. What do you think I've been doing. I've 224 00:16:14,116 --> 00:16:20,236 Speaker 1: been like, I've been keeping myself busy. And suddenly he 225 00:16:20,356 --> 00:16:25,276 Speaker 1: was free. He didn't have that reporting and I had 226 00:16:25,356 --> 00:16:29,996 Speaker 1: gotten into my own little world and my own little 227 00:16:30,116 --> 00:16:35,316 Speaker 1: routine of doing things and not checking in. And I realized, 228 00:16:35,476 --> 00:16:40,756 Speaker 1: actually that you needed me more than I thought when 229 00:16:40,796 --> 00:16:45,756 Speaker 1: he was available. Well, no, I know that guy. I 230 00:16:45,836 --> 00:16:49,236 Speaker 1: think there was a little you were so upset six 231 00:16:49,356 --> 00:16:54,036 Speaker 1: or seven hours. Did you do it to show himself? No, No, 232 00:16:54,076 --> 00:16:56,756 Speaker 1: I was just I was just no. I did not, No, 233 00:16:56,836 --> 00:17:00,236 Speaker 1: I did not. And every every weekend he was talking 234 00:17:00,236 --> 00:17:02,676 Speaker 1: on the I would just do something, you know, I 235 00:17:02,716 --> 00:17:05,436 Speaker 1: just didn't. I didn't. I didn't feel I needed to 236 00:17:05,516 --> 00:17:09,996 Speaker 1: check in because he was already check in somewhere else 237 00:17:11,156 --> 00:17:16,356 Speaker 1: or checked out so fas, and so I thought. I 238 00:17:16,396 --> 00:17:18,796 Speaker 1: think that there are like moments like that in which 239 00:17:18,796 --> 00:17:22,556 Speaker 1: then you say, oh M, you need a readjustment here, 240 00:17:23,996 --> 00:17:26,476 Speaker 1: I need more attention. How do you bring up a 241 00:17:26,516 --> 00:17:28,396 Speaker 1: hard topic? How do you how do you handle a 242 00:17:28,436 --> 00:17:33,596 Speaker 1: hard topic? You usually say I want to talk to 243 00:17:33,596 --> 00:17:42,396 Speaker 1: you about something, and then we sit down and I 244 00:17:42,396 --> 00:17:48,436 Speaker 1: don't want to talk about that. Let's not or let's 245 00:17:48,516 --> 00:17:52,516 Speaker 1: kind of because you are kind of Um, I'll talk 246 00:17:52,556 --> 00:17:54,636 Speaker 1: about it for a little bit. But I also think 247 00:17:54,716 --> 00:17:57,956 Speaker 1: sometimes people make a mistake. And I've been at there 248 00:17:58,036 --> 00:18:00,716 Speaker 1: with myself. I mean, I have done so I'm not 249 00:18:00,756 --> 00:18:05,636 Speaker 1: sort of an adverse to that at all. Um, I 250 00:18:05,676 --> 00:18:08,316 Speaker 1: think you can make things worse sometimes by trying to 251 00:18:08,396 --> 00:18:11,596 Speaker 1: just pull it part. And you know, maybe that's just 252 00:18:11,676 --> 00:18:14,316 Speaker 1: a defense mechanism or something, but I think I I mean, 253 00:18:14,316 --> 00:18:16,676 Speaker 1: I went through I did a fair amount of cognitive 254 00:18:16,676 --> 00:18:19,716 Speaker 1: behavioral therapy at one point in my life. UM, do 255 00:18:19,716 --> 00:18:22,276 Speaker 1: you know what that is? Yes, I think very early 256 00:18:22,436 --> 00:18:26,716 Speaker 1: on in our marriage and you and I talked about this, 257 00:18:26,876 --> 00:18:32,876 Speaker 1: that that we would try to always assume good intentions 258 00:18:33,516 --> 00:18:37,036 Speaker 1: and that when someone is being a jerk, it's not 259 00:18:37,116 --> 00:18:40,076 Speaker 1: that they're being a jerk to you. Is there just 260 00:18:40,116 --> 00:18:44,476 Speaker 1: being a jerk, it's not directed you. See, this is 261 00:18:44,516 --> 00:18:51,796 Speaker 1: the theme also brings up good intentions? Are there bad intentions? 262 00:18:51,916 --> 00:18:55,956 Speaker 1: And is best I can recall? I don't think she's 263 00:18:55,996 --> 00:19:01,436 Speaker 1: ever done anything with bad intention toward me or I 264 00:19:01,516 --> 00:19:06,956 Speaker 1: toward her, and she will let things go if I'm 265 00:19:07,116 --> 00:19:09,716 Speaker 1: especially exceptive. I talked to much of therapy about it. 266 00:19:11,596 --> 00:19:14,756 Speaker 1: And you don't ever have marriage counseling, right, what do 267 00:19:14,836 --> 00:19:19,076 Speaker 1: you call this man? Cognitive behavioral therapist tell him what 268 00:19:19,116 --> 00:19:23,476 Speaker 1: they do. It deals a lot with anxiety. I'm just 269 00:19:23,516 --> 00:19:26,316 Speaker 1: going to fail. I know I'm going to fail. And 270 00:19:26,396 --> 00:19:30,716 Speaker 1: so what the cognitive behavioral therapist does is teaches you 271 00:19:32,396 --> 00:19:36,876 Speaker 1: how to identify that distorted thinking. And he'll say when 272 00:19:36,876 --> 00:19:39,476 Speaker 1: people are in states of high anxiety and distorted thinking, 273 00:19:40,276 --> 00:19:43,756 Speaker 1: they usually are in their catastrophic thinking modes. They most 274 00:19:43,756 --> 00:19:46,156 Speaker 1: people go to five, which is like this is just 275 00:19:46,476 --> 00:19:52,316 Speaker 1: like horrible, And in reality, when you really look at something, 276 00:19:52,396 --> 00:19:54,956 Speaker 1: it usually is about a one or two. And so 277 00:19:54,996 --> 00:19:58,036 Speaker 1: it trains you to see. It's not saying it's not 278 00:19:58,116 --> 00:20:01,836 Speaker 1: a problem or you shouldn't be afraid. It's like it's 279 00:20:01,836 --> 00:20:03,676 Speaker 1: like you don't have to be as afraid. So let's 280 00:20:03,676 --> 00:20:08,236 Speaker 1: say you're in your bedroom and you hear a huge 281 00:20:08,436 --> 00:20:15,676 Speaker 1: crash and it's the middle of the night. You might think, 282 00:20:15,876 --> 00:20:20,076 Speaker 1: oh my god, someone has broken into my house. They're 283 00:20:20,076 --> 00:20:25,356 Speaker 1: going to kill me. The cognitive behavioral therapist would say, well, 284 00:20:25,716 --> 00:20:29,396 Speaker 1: how likely is that. It's much more likely that actually 285 00:20:29,516 --> 00:20:33,356 Speaker 1: is a branch that fell fell down outside, So it's 286 00:20:33,396 --> 00:20:36,396 Speaker 1: the one or two. So it trains you to see 287 00:20:36,436 --> 00:20:39,076 Speaker 1: the one or two rather than the find it's great. 288 00:20:39,396 --> 00:20:42,596 Speaker 1: The other day, and this was maybe a month ago, 289 00:20:42,956 --> 00:20:48,196 Speaker 1: something was bugging me and we had one of our conversations. 290 00:20:48,516 --> 00:20:56,436 Speaker 1: I said, in twenty sixteen the Trump campaign, I felt 291 00:20:57,396 --> 00:21:00,596 Speaker 1: for a good reason, I didn't work hard enough to 292 00:21:00,756 --> 00:21:05,316 Speaker 1: get his taps for terms and so. And we've talked 293 00:21:05,356 --> 00:21:08,276 Speaker 1: about it at the time and console and I was 294 00:21:08,436 --> 00:21:13,596 Speaker 1: really feeling bad, and Elsa said, well, you know what 295 00:21:13,636 --> 00:21:19,116 Speaker 1: you did was reasonable, and you know you're not carrying 296 00:21:19,156 --> 00:21:23,156 Speaker 1: the world on your back. Oh boy, the version of 297 00:21:23,276 --> 00:21:29,676 Speaker 1: your not kingcom And I said, well, I really feel 298 00:21:29,796 --> 00:21:34,396 Speaker 1: I kind of let myself down and so and by 299 00:21:34,556 --> 00:21:40,916 Speaker 1: talking about it, it was a five for me because 300 00:21:40,956 --> 00:21:46,196 Speaker 1: I was churning and going on it. Let the little down. Yeah, 301 00:21:46,356 --> 00:21:51,996 Speaker 1: and then she said, well, that's not your job and 302 00:21:52,196 --> 00:21:56,076 Speaker 1: you couldn't. And there you know, there were reasons. There 303 00:21:56,076 --> 00:21:58,996 Speaker 1: are always reasons for not doing something, and the reason 304 00:21:59,116 --> 00:22:01,676 Speaker 1: they're reasonable and account. I don't think they got me 305 00:22:01,756 --> 00:22:04,556 Speaker 1: down to one or two. We've got me to the reason. 306 00:22:06,196 --> 00:22:10,076 Speaker 1: But that's great. Bob oftentimes says, what what can I 307 00:22:10,156 --> 00:22:13,156 Speaker 1: do to make you happy? And I'll say, that's not 308 00:22:13,196 --> 00:22:19,156 Speaker 1: your job. That's my job. Assume good intentions, keep your promise, 309 00:22:19,916 --> 00:22:24,156 Speaker 1: don't leave the house angry. And you are you into 310 00:22:24,196 --> 00:22:27,516 Speaker 1: this thing of don't go to bit angry. I'm trying 311 00:22:27,516 --> 00:22:30,916 Speaker 1: to be, but that's not always as easy. Letty Polgaban said, 312 00:22:31,316 --> 00:22:34,636 Speaker 1: I have no desire to sit up all night until 313 00:22:34,716 --> 00:22:38,236 Speaker 1: somebody admits they're wrong. Yeah, so I just haven't. We 314 00:22:38,396 --> 00:22:43,276 Speaker 1: always we, I mean we we actually don't. We do 315 00:22:43,356 --> 00:22:48,956 Speaker 1: not argue very often, which is good for me. I 316 00:22:49,036 --> 00:22:51,036 Speaker 1: like it that way, maybe not as good for you. 317 00:22:51,836 --> 00:22:58,836 Speaker 1: I don't like arguing, but I think sometimes having discussions 318 00:22:59,156 --> 00:23:05,156 Speaker 1: isn't worth it. And because you know where it's going 319 00:23:06,436 --> 00:23:09,676 Speaker 1: you know where it's gonna go. Yeah, Well I didn't 320 00:23:09,676 --> 00:23:13,116 Speaker 1: get matters, just matter. Sometimes it's just not worth it. 321 00:23:13,556 --> 00:23:18,596 Speaker 1: And when you have a spouse who's you know, will 322 00:23:18,676 --> 00:23:22,716 Speaker 1: let things go, even maybe things she shouldn't let go, 323 00:23:23,556 --> 00:23:27,396 Speaker 1: there are certain expectations we have of each other that 324 00:23:28,076 --> 00:23:36,436 Speaker 1: we actually fulfill and in no way have we made 325 00:23:36,476 --> 00:23:42,596 Speaker 1: the other feel they're in this. And I think that 326 00:23:42,636 --> 00:23:49,396 Speaker 1: there is a kind of a code word that we have, 327 00:23:50,916 --> 00:23:54,156 Speaker 1: and that is I love you. Is that something you 328 00:23:54,236 --> 00:24:00,556 Speaker 1: say when things are hard? No, And each morning when 329 00:24:00,996 --> 00:24:04,036 Speaker 1: you generally get up before me, Yeah, you're down here 330 00:24:04,036 --> 00:24:05,596 Speaker 1: in the coffee and we can I come down and 331 00:24:06,436 --> 00:24:09,236 Speaker 1: get him the keiss and say I love you, and 332 00:24:09,356 --> 00:24:13,596 Speaker 1: I say I love you, or going to bed at night, 333 00:24:13,956 --> 00:24:19,236 Speaker 1: I said I love you, I love you. And so 334 00:24:19,396 --> 00:24:26,676 Speaker 1: it's a kind of there's no volcano, so much easier 335 00:24:26,756 --> 00:24:35,356 Speaker 1: journeying under the under the surface. And you know, particularly 336 00:24:35,436 --> 00:24:38,756 Speaker 1: when we get older, we're at appointment in our lives 337 00:24:38,836 --> 00:24:46,116 Speaker 1: where we have obligations beyond just our family and ourselves. 338 00:24:46,396 --> 00:24:53,076 Speaker 1: And I always talk about the fourth act of your life. Yeah, 339 00:24:53,516 --> 00:24:57,796 Speaker 1: the first act of getting educated and then second act 340 00:24:57,836 --> 00:25:01,796 Speaker 1: of deciding how you're going to live and what your 341 00:25:01,796 --> 00:25:04,076 Speaker 1: career is going to be, and then your third act 342 00:25:04,196 --> 00:25:08,516 Speaker 1: the middle years, and then there's there actually is a 343 00:25:08,596 --> 00:25:12,476 Speaker 1: fourth act. Isn't that mean you two are living a 344 00:25:12,596 --> 00:25:18,396 Speaker 1: fourth that act and you want to be as wise 345 00:25:18,596 --> 00:25:24,876 Speaker 1: and focused and consequence oriended as you were in the 346 00:25:24,916 --> 00:25:30,796 Speaker 1: first three acts. I really think that the lives are 347 00:25:30,996 --> 00:25:36,516 Speaker 1: enriched by discussion and analysis, and I think it's good 348 00:25:36,556 --> 00:25:39,396 Speaker 1: you're picking at it. I think we learned something to 349 00:25:39,476 --> 00:25:42,836 Speaker 1: appreciate what we have. Yeah, that's right. I could not 350 00:25:43,716 --> 00:25:47,916 Speaker 1: understand the value of Elsa if I was not able to, 351 00:25:49,716 --> 00:25:56,916 Speaker 1: I think be analytical about the past of you know, Oh, 352 00:25:56,956 --> 00:26:02,156 Speaker 1: I'm in this alone. And if I couldn't understand that, 353 00:26:02,556 --> 00:26:09,436 Speaker 1: I wouldn't understand the gift that's Bob, wouldn't Ward and 354 00:26:09,516 --> 00:26:13,476 Speaker 1: Elsa Walsh the gratitude they have for one another. It 355 00:26:13,636 --> 00:26:16,276 Speaker 1: just goes to show you you can do the dog 356 00:26:16,396 --> 00:26:19,956 Speaker 1: eat dog world of journalism and still make home your 357 00:26:19,996 --> 00:26:24,276 Speaker 1: own little sanctuary until next time. I'm Phil Donahue and 358 00:26:24,396 --> 00:26:33,676 Speaker 1: I'm Marlo Thomas. Double Day is a production of Pushkin Industries. 359 00:26:33,916 --> 00:26:37,276 Speaker 1: The show was created by US and produced by Sarah Lilly. 360 00:26:37,916 --> 00:26:42,516 Speaker 1: Michael Bahari is Associate producer. Musical adaptations of It Had 361 00:26:42,556 --> 00:26:46,836 Speaker 1: to Be You by Selwagon. Sympinette, Marlo and I are 362 00:26:46,876 --> 00:26:52,316 Speaker 1: executive producers, along with Mia Lobell and Letal Molad from 363 00:26:52,356 --> 00:26:58,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin Special thanks to Jacob Wiseburg, Malcolm Gladwell, Heather Faine, 364 00:26:58,876 --> 00:27:05,396 Speaker 1: John Snars, Carly Migliori, Eric Sandler, Emily Rostak, Jason Gambrel, 365 00:27:05,876 --> 00:27:10,356 Speaker 1: Paul Williams, and Bruce Klucker. If you like our show, 366 00:27:10,876 --> 00:27:15,716 Speaker 1: please remember to share, rate, and review. Thanks for listening.