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Speaker 1: On November sixteenth, nineteen ninety two, a teenage couple was

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Speaker 1: held up on West Washington Street in Chicago, and the

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Speaker 1: young man, Shahar and Brandon, was shot dead, but the

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Speaker 1: young lady said that she had not seen the shooter's face.

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Speaker 1: Another witness statement raised the name Blue, the nickname of

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Speaker 1: a local man named Roosevelt Miles. Soon the female victim

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Speaker 1: also identified Blue, sending Roosevelt away for sixty long years.

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Speaker 1: But this is wrongful conviction. Wrongful conviction has always given

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Speaker 1: voice to innocent people in prison, and now we're expanding

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Speaker 1: that voice to you. Call us at eight three three

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Speaker 1: two O seven four six sixty six and tell us

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Speaker 1: how these stories make you feel and what you've done

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Speaker 1: to help the cause, Even if it's something as simple

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Speaker 1: as telling a friend or sharing on social media. You

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Speaker 1: might just hear yourself in a future episode. Call us

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Speaker 1: A three three two O seven four six sixty six.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Ronfel Conviction. Today, we've got a Chicago

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Speaker 1: story involving another gang unit detective out of Area five,

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Speaker 1: the same notorious unit as Ray Guevera and Ernest Halverson,

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Speaker 1: which may give our regular listeners an inkling of what

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Speaker 1: our guests today Endured Roosevelt Miles. Thanks for being here

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Speaker 1: and joining us today, and along with him, Ashley Cohne

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Speaker 1: from the Bonine Law Group. We appreciate you being here

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Speaker 1: as well, of course. So let's get right into it.

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Speaker 1: Tell us about your childhood. What was it like growing

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Speaker 1: up in Chicago at that time?

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Speaker 2: Life is great.

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Speaker 3: Learned a lot of skills from my father, a lot

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Speaker 3: of cooking skills from my mom. Kid, you know, went

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Speaker 3: to school, boy scout, junior police officer, just did everything

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Speaker 3: that the kid does, graduated, went to college.

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Speaker 1: But his trajectory in life was interrupted by a mix

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Speaker 1: of cannabis possession charges, which most people agreed should never

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Speaker 1: have been a thing, and then the first of two

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Speaker 1: wrongful convictions when he was about twenty three years old

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Speaker 1: and charged for the actions of a juvenile family friend.

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Speaker 3: I was with a young man and a young lady.

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Speaker 3: I've been knowing a young man. His family's like family

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Speaker 3: to meet. They was like sixteen seventeen, so he couldn't drive,

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Speaker 3: So his mom gave me the car to take him

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Speaker 3: to the store. And they went to the mall and

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Speaker 3: we was all in there. I was doing something else

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Speaker 3: and so I went looking for him, and J. C.

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Speaker 3: Penny now said, I know I got bumba rushed by

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Speaker 3: the police. So apparently they had picked him and her

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Speaker 3: up from using a froggling credit card and they charged

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Speaker 3: me with So.

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Speaker 1: They stuck Roosevelt with his forgery charge rather than bothering

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Speaker 1: with the two juveniles.

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Speaker 3: But Daryl was on probation for maljuana offenses. Lawyer say, well,

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Speaker 3: you got this other case, so you need to cop

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Speaker 3: out now copped out, which I sunis should never because

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Speaker 3: that wasn't my case.

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Speaker 2: I did eighteen months.

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Speaker 1: These are the wrongful convictions that we rarely ever even

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Speaker 1: hear about, but they're probably the most prevalent where people

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Speaker 1: just plead guilty and take a short sentence as a

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Speaker 1: matter of being practical, they're avoiding the risk of losing

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Speaker 1: a trial and multiplying the length of their sentence. So

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Speaker 1: after eighteen months, Roosevelt parolled out and they began working

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Speaker 1: for the Chicago Parks District, but his record kept them

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Speaker 1: on the radar of police in November of nineteen ninety two.

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Speaker 4: So on November sixteenth, nineteen ninety two, a sixteen year

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Speaker 4: old by the name of Shaharan Brandon, who goes by

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Speaker 4: the nickname Tony, was with his girlfriend, Octavius Morris, who

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Speaker 4: is nicknamed Tweety. She was fifteen years old at the time,

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Speaker 4: and the two of them were at her mother's house

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Speaker 4: on the forty eight hundred block of West Washington Boulevard

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Speaker 4: in Chicago, Illinois, and they decided at two thirty in

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Speaker 4: the morning that they wanted to go get something to eat.

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Speaker 4: Once outside, according to Morris, a gunman came up, said

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Speaker 4: this is a stick up and fired several shots at Tony.

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Speaker 4: She actually ran and she came back to the scene.

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Speaker 4: Then police came and speak to any witnesses. So Octavia

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Speaker 4: says that there were two shooters. One a teenage boy

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Speaker 4: wearing all black clothing, that he was six feet tall,

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Speaker 4: and she also says that she didn't see his face.

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Speaker 4: And she said that she had seen another individual underneath

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Speaker 4: the porch and she also described him as a teenager.

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Speaker 3: Was a dogs young man feet eight feet nine teenager.

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Speaker 4: Then there was another witness, she was a sex worker

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Speaker 4: and she was down the block, and she says that

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Speaker 4: she only saw one shooter, but both had described the

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Speaker 4: shooter as teenager six feet tall. So those facts remained consistent.

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Speaker 3: So the description these individuals never fit me at all,

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Speaker 3: age and nothing. She's say fifteen to sixteen young men.

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Speaker 3: I was twenty eight, so it could.

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Speaker 2: Never matchin me.

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Speaker 1: And that was more solidly confirmed shortly after the shooting.

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Speaker 4: The original reports say that there were many individuals in

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Speaker 4: the area on the sea. So Roosevelt he lived in

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Speaker 4: the neighborhood. So he is picked up by two officers

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Speaker 4: and taken over to the scene.

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Speaker 3: Well, they didn't force me, Walt, They just walked with

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Speaker 3: me over to the police car that was parked at

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Speaker 3: the crime scene. And so when we got over there,

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Speaker 3: they stum me back, come and the witness in the

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Speaker 3: car say it wasn't me.

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Speaker 4: Octavius and Sandra Birch, who is the sex worker down

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Speaker 4: the street. They both knew him from the neighborhood and

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Speaker 4: they both knew him as Blue, and they both tell

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Speaker 4: the police, no, that wasn't him.

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Speaker 5: I know, we know who that is.

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Speaker 4: That's Blue, that he was not the shooter, okay, and

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Speaker 4: the cops let him go.

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Speaker 1: The two witnesses agreed that it wasn't Roosevelt, who they

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Speaker 1: knew as Blue, but they did agree on the description

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Speaker 1: of at least one of the shooters, a six foot

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Speaker 1: tall teenager wearing dark clothing. But the investigation goes off

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Speaker 1: the rails as Sandra Birch, with the trappings of her

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Speaker 1: line of work, was vulnerable to coercion, and then Octavius

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Speaker 1: also had a vulnerability. After all, Remember it's a little

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Speaker 1: odd that despite her vantage point, she claimed that she

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Speaker 1: had not seen the shooter's face.

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Speaker 5: They assumed that Sweety knew more than she let on.

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Speaker 4: It was actually the victim's family who brought it to

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Speaker 4: the attention of the cops, and they thought that she

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Speaker 4: may have known who the shooter was a former boyfriend.

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Speaker 4: So there were some cops that were looking into that lead.

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Speaker 4: But at some point we see a very well known

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Speaker 4: disgraced officer, Anthony Wochik and his lackeys Rutherford and McDonald.

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Speaker 4: Once Wochick gets involved, there was some transformation in the

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Speaker 4: reports that instead of Sandra Birch saying I saw blue

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Speaker 4: at the scene and told the officers it wasn't him,

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Speaker 4: it turned into I saw Blue standing over the body

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Speaker 4: at the time.

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Speaker 5: Of the murder.

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Speaker 1: Simultaneously, it appears Wochik turned up the pressure on Octavius.

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Speaker 4: They went to her house multiple times and kept saying,

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Speaker 4: we know it was blue, just say it was blue.

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Speaker 4: And eventually she capitulated and she said it was blue.

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Speaker 4: I mean, she's fifteen years old. She's scared the cops

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Speaker 4: keep coming to her house. She does not have a

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Speaker 4: clean background. She was part of a gang herself. She

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Speaker 4: had a history of some criminal misconduct, and so they

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Speaker 4: use that to basically persuade her and Sandra Burt to

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Speaker 4: testify before the grand jury so that they have them

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Speaker 4: under oath and then if they change their story, they

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Speaker 4: can threaten them with perjury.

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Speaker 1: And with both of their statements, they arrest the same

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Speaker 1: man who both witnesses had cleared at the crime scene.

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Speaker 2: Troll me a police say.

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Speaker 3: You took me upstairs on the second floor into a

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Speaker 3: interrogation room and they immediately handcuffed me to the bench.

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Speaker 3: I was beaten by Detective Anthony Woji with a telephone

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Speaker 3: book and a maglight to say I'd done something that

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Speaker 3: I didn't do.

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Speaker 2: I was choked and this process.

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Speaker 3: Went on without being able to use to wash room

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Speaker 3: or eat for two days. And at one point I

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Speaker 3: told me, I started crying, you can kill me because

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Speaker 3: I'm not gonna say nothing that I didn't do. I

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Speaker 3: didn't allow them to be the confession out of me.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen to this

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Speaker 1: and all the Lava for Good podcasts one week early

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Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. I don't believe we've ever heard of

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Speaker 1: someone walking out of the Chicago interrogation room, which is

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Speaker 1: really a torture room, let's call it what it is,

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Speaker 1: having held on to their truth. It's remarkable, really, But nevertheless,

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Speaker 1: they still had two witness statements, never mind how far

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Speaker 1: their testimony departed from their original statements. But yet it

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Speaker 1: still took all the way until January of nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: six to take Roosevelt to trial.

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Speaker 4: There's reasons for why it was taking that long. So

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Speaker 4: one thing that happened is we know Sandra Birch she

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Speaker 4: had died. Another thing that happened. Roosevelt's public defenders go

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Speaker 4: to see Tweety and she provides a handwritten and a

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Speaker 4: typewritten statement to their investigators, basically saying, the police kept

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Speaker 4: coming to my house and telling me to say that

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Speaker 4: Blue is the one who did it and the only

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Speaker 4: reason I said that it was blue is because they

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Speaker 4: were forcing me to do and I don't know who

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Speaker 4: the shooter was, but it was not blue. So they're

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Speaker 4: scrambling to figure out their case, which is why continuance

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Speaker 4: after continuance. They're figuring out what they can do. And

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Speaker 4: what we see in the file is the victim's family

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Speaker 4: member comes into the police station and says, my wife

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Speaker 4: was out and was talking to a woman by the

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Speaker 4: name of Deborah Lenore who said she was with Roosevelt

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Speaker 4: on the night of the shooting with her brother at

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Speaker 4: the dragons Den. So Roosevelt he actually was like a

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Speaker 4: block and a half away when the shooting happened.

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Speaker 5: He heard the shots.

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Speaker 4: He was coming out of a friend of his house,

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Speaker 4: and he saw a buddy of his, Michael Hooker, and

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Speaker 4: then he went to the dragons Den later that night.

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Speaker 3: Yes, a motorcycle MC. They have pool tournaments. I shoot

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Speaker 3: pool and on Sunday nicest pool tournament time.

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Speaker 1: According to statements from Debra Lenore and her brother Oliver

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety three, they did see Roosevelt that night

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Speaker 1: when he was at the motorcycle club hours after the.

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Speaker 4: Shooting, but then in nineteen ninety five, two years later,

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Speaker 4: all of a sudden, there's this whole circumstantial story where

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Speaker 4: he ran up to Deborah and Oliver after the shots,

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Speaker 4: and it kind of just seemed a little sketchy that

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Speaker 4: he was running out from where the shootings came from,

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Speaker 4: and that ultimately ends up being the story that goes

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Speaker 4: to trial. And I mean, even according to Tweety, from

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Speaker 4: what we know now, Debora Lenor, who's also now deceased,

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Speaker 4: she had a drug problem, was apparently being provided some

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Speaker 4: drugs by the cops, at least that's what Tweety had

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Speaker 4: mentioned to us. And so they take these individuals who

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Speaker 4: are susceptible to coercion and they mold these stories into

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Speaker 4: something that they want to tell to a jury that

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Speaker 4: they think is sufficient to convict an innocent person like Roosevelt.

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Speaker 1: After more than three long years in Cook County jail,

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Speaker 1: the trial finally began in January nineteen ninety six, and

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Speaker 1: by this time, the state's attorneys Milkititchen Lynch, along with

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Speaker 1: the locked grand jury testimony and a threat of perjury,

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Speaker 1: had Octavius back on her coerce story again.

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Speaker 4: She flips back, and she says the reason she says

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Speaker 4: it wasn't Blue is because she was scared that he

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Speaker 4: was going to do something to her. So that's her

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Speaker 4: reason for initially not saying that it was him, then

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Speaker 4: saying that it was him, then saying that it wasn't him,

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Speaker 4: and now testifying that it was him. So she testifies,

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Speaker 4: and the jury hears that she provided a statement to

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Speaker 4: the investigators, and it's messy. There are two cops that testify.

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Speaker 4: One basically says, no, we only went to Octavius Morris's

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Speaker 4: house once, we didn't go there five to six times.

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Speaker 4: And then one officer testifies that after they interviewed a witness,

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Speaker 4: they went looking for Blue.

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Speaker 1: So the two officers testimony served to both clear up

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Speaker 1: the messiness around Octavius Morris's recantation and gave the appearance

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Speaker 1: that the suspicion of Roosevelt had come from an independent source.

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Speaker 4: So the judge didn't let in that there was this witness,

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Speaker 4: Sandra Birch. But there's an exception where it's like the

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Speaker 4: course of the investigation, so you know, it makes it

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Speaker 4: seem like there was a witness who identified Blue and

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Speaker 4: that's what made them go look for him and.

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Speaker 1: Without her there or even naming her, there was no

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Speaker 1: way to impeach that evidence, perhaps raising how she hadn't

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Speaker 1: identified Roosevelt at the show up and what made her

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Speaker 1: change her version of events. And then there was a

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Speaker 1: garbled and nonsensical, circumstantial evidence from Debra Lenore and her

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Speaker 1: brother Oliver.

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Speaker 4: Oliver had passed away actually at that point as well.

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Speaker 4: So Deborah just testifies that basically this story of her

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Speaker 4: walking down the street and Roosevelt just comes running up

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Speaker 4: behind her and it's around the time of the shooting,

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Speaker 4: and that's it. It's so far fetched, but these pieces

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Speaker 4: being put together, apparently back in ninety six was sufficient

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Speaker 4: for to convict him.

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Speaker 3: Thinking I was gonna get a fair trial, thinking the

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Speaker 3: lawyer that I had, mister even would represent me to

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Speaker 3: the fullest. And when I sit down and heard the testimony,

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Speaker 3: he barely object to a lot of what was brought out,

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Speaker 3: especially things dealing with the dead prostitute that shouldn't have

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Speaker 3: never been brought out.

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Speaker 2: But they allowed Jewurry to hear this.

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Speaker 3: Halfway through, I'd say, I I know I'm going to prison.

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Speaker 3: If the jury would have knew how they all played

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Speaker 3: out the scenario his whole case, I would have never

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Speaker 3: been found.

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Speaker 2: Guilty, but I didn't have a representation to do that.

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Speaker 4: One thing about Roosevelt's public defender, he did try to

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Speaker 4: get in a lot of things that the judge just

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Speaker 4: would not allow him to get into. There were early

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Speaker 4: on statements about the potential third party offender who was

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Speaker 4: Octavius's former boyfriend, but he didn't do the work of

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Speaker 4: really trying to explore that as much as she should have.

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Speaker 4: And because he couldn't give the judge enough of a

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Speaker 4: proffer related to that, he borrowed it from coming in.

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Speaker 1: In addition, Roosevelt's attorney could have called his alibi witness,

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Speaker 1: Michael Hooker. So that left Octavius Morris's fabricated identification and

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Speaker 1: the circumstantial support, and somehow that was enough to send

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Speaker 1: Roosevelt away for sixty years.

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Speaker 3: So when they found me guilty, I just stood then shop,

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Speaker 3: you know, I just stood.

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Speaker 2: Dn't shop.

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Speaker 3: The day I got sentenced, I asked Judge porter, can't

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Speaker 3: see my parents?

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Speaker 2: He denied me.

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Speaker 3: Tell me they could pass me through. Why would you

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Speaker 3: say that these are elderly people. He's my mom and dad.

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Speaker 3: So that was the last time I saw my mom,

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Speaker 3: and she passed away. Well, I was in prison, and

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Speaker 3: she didn't ever come to see me because I didn't

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Speaker 3: want to come see me.

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Speaker 2: And that was the last time I saw it was

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Speaker 2: a trial.

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Speaker 3: Being shipped to Stateville was a whole different avenue. You

284
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Speaker 3: ever been in a place and you just numb. I

285
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Speaker 3: felt numb. And I got into sale with a guy

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Speaker 3: I knowed. He was a little guy from the neighborhood.

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Speaker 3: I come to find out his auntie's was my neighbors.

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Speaker 3: I didn't even know that until we got to talking.

289
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Speaker 3: But I felt somewhere okay, But you never okay. My

290
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Speaker 3: life is never the same, you know, And s one night,

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Speaker 3: I'm I'm in the sale, my CELLI at work by

292
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Speaker 3: two and the more instorment and my next little neighbor

293
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Speaker 3: killed his selling.

294
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Speaker 2: That's trauma.

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Speaker 3: Man being a m a grown man hollering, screaming, that's trauma.

296
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Speaker 3: And I'm in here for somebody, and do I can

297
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Speaker 3: honestly say that most of the staff was very supportive

298
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Speaker 3: of my innocent because if you didn't see me at work,

299
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Speaker 3: I was in the law light Berry. If I wasn't

300
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Speaker 3: in a law light Beary, I was on a visit.

301
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,240
Speaker 3: I barely went to the yard, and that's how I

302
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,600
Speaker 3: gave him a bit. You know, my days was spent researching,

303
00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,040
Speaker 3: and as she would tell you, I did so much work.

304
00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,320
Speaker 3: I ran through three typewriters, you know, because I knew

305
00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,520
Speaker 3: I was innocent. You know, Anderson fight for life, the

306
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,400
Speaker 3: guilty fight for a short period. I'm still fighting.

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Speaker 1: After the boiler plate denials on direct appeal, Roosevelt did

308
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,880
Speaker 1: his post conviction fileingx pro sey, meaning on his own

309
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,800
Speaker 1: without an attorney, and that began with an affidavit from

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Speaker 1: Michael Hooker, who had not only been with him, but

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Speaker 1: had also seen him come out of his house after

312
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Speaker 1: the shooting had already occurred.

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Speaker 4: Michael Hooker was an alibi witness that Roosevelt had told

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Speaker 4: it public defender about at the time, and he didn't

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Speaker 4: call him at trial.

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Speaker 5: He didn't get his affidavit and he didn't get his testimony.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the infant Custy accouncil fulfilure called my alibi witness.

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Speaker 3: It was denied, and I peeled it and the season

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00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:00,879
Speaker 3: came back December two thousand and once I ready, I

320
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Speaker 3: say I'm going home.

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Speaker 4: Ultimately, Roosevelt was granted a hearing and evidentiary hearing after

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Speaker 4: he did provide a affidavit from Michael Hooker basically saying

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Speaker 4: that he was with him on the night when they

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Speaker 4: heard the shots were fired.

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Speaker 2: But I waited eighteen years is hearing.

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Speaker 4: The judge just basically allows it to languish, So he

327
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,840
Speaker 4: is tossed around from public defender to public defender. He

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00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,480
Speaker 4: has one public defender who is actually doing really good

329
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Speaker 4: work for him, but unfortunately he also died. The amount

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Speaker 4: of people who have died in Roosevelt's case is actually insane.

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Speaker 4: But another one takes over and just sits, and it

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Speaker 4: sits and sits, and finally, in twenty seventeen, Roosevelt finds

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Speaker 4: us the Bonjin Law Group. I remember it like it

334
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,000
Speaker 4: was yesterday. I was new from out of law school.

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Speaker 4: I get this massive file from the public Defender's office

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00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:57,119
Speaker 4: that was fifteen thousand pages. And part of our responsibility

337
00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:01,560
Speaker 4: as post conviction attorneys is we have to find new evidence, right,

338
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,720
Speaker 4: so we make efforts to go to Octavius's house multiple times.

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Speaker 4: It seems like we weren't the only ones. The state

340
00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,640
Speaker 4: was also trying to talk to her. At that time,

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Speaker 4: there was a new conviction integrity unit at the Cook

342
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,000
Speaker 4: County States Attorney's Office, and we wrote to them, said,

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Speaker 4: this case is so weak.

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Speaker 5: There's no evidence.

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00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:24,200
Speaker 4: There's just this one recanted eyewitness identification that is not

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00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,880
Speaker 4: even legitimate because she says she didn't see the shooter's

347
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:29,960
Speaker 4: face in the beginning, and why are you sticking to this.

348
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,160
Speaker 4: So we thought we would maybe get played there.

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Speaker 2: We didn't, and.

350
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Speaker 4: We kept striking out with Octavius, and then all of

351
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Speaker 4: a sudden, one day she decided to call our office

352
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Speaker 4: and she said, I told.

353
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Speaker 5: The police I knew who Blue was, and I knew

354
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Speaker 5: it was not Blue.

355
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Speaker 4: And she says, I remember the guy the officer's name,

356
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Speaker 4: because it was my brother's name, and my brother's name

357
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Speaker 4: was Tony, and Tony kept coming to my house and saying,

358
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Speaker 4: this is the person who did it. And if you

359
00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,359
Speaker 4: don't testify, then we're going to say that you were

360
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,200
Speaker 4: involved in the sho shooting and you knew who did it,

361
00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:02,800
Speaker 4: or you had some responsibility.

362
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Speaker 5: So you have to testify and say that it was

363
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,159
Speaker 5: Roosevelt's end of story. Done deal. So ultimately she.

364
00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:14,240
Speaker 1: Does, and of course Tony was Detective Anthony Wochick. Octavius

365
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,440
Speaker 1: Morris later swore an Affidavid to exactly what she had

366
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:21,240
Speaker 1: said over the phone, exactly has she had said it

367
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,280
Speaker 1: when she recanted all those years ago to Roosevelt's trial attorney,

368
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,960
Speaker 1: And so Ashley amended Roosevelt's two thousand filing with this

369
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:30,800
Speaker 1: AFFI David.

370
00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,960
Speaker 4: And one of the biggest things in our post conviction

371
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,879
Speaker 4: petition that we had filed. A lot of the new

372
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,440
Speaker 4: evidence was related to Anthony Wochik's pattern and practice of

373
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,040
Speaker 4: misconduct that has come to light over the years. Anthony

374
00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:48,119
Speaker 4: Wochk rose the ranks through his thirty years at the

375
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:52,280
Speaker 4: Chicago Police Department with little to no supervision or discipline.

376
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:57,960
Speaker 4: There were scores of allegations and findings of misconduct against Wocheck.

377
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,840
Speaker 3: So I did afore you request and somebody gave me

378
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,720
Speaker 3: at the new Woji Police complain history, which they don't do,

379
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,120
Speaker 3: and I found out that he had forty three complaints

380
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:09,719
Speaker 3: against him.

381
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 4: Early on in Wocheck's career, he was criminally prosecuted for

382
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,879
Speaker 4: beating up a man who was found in bed with

383
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:24,280
Speaker 4: some female lover of his and the case was dismissed.

384
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,720
Speaker 4: That was the beginning of his career, and he still

385
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:31,480
Speaker 4: rose the ranks. He went police officer, detective, sergeant, lieutenant,

386
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:35,120
Speaker 4: like they did nothing about this problem officer all these

387
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,280
Speaker 4: years and the exoneration project in Chicago, you know, Carl

388
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,520
Speaker 4: Leonard and David Owens, they did a lot of legwork

389
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 4: getting will Check pattern and practice witnesses. And during one

390
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,880
Speaker 4: of our post conviction hearings for two other individuals Canaan

391
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,920
Speaker 4: Abrago to here, victims of Detective will Check, we put

392
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Speaker 4: on I want to say, fourteen different witnesses, former police officers,

393
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:07,440
Speaker 4: to public defenders, to inmates, who provided compelling evidence of

394
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:12,359
Speaker 4: misconduct throughout his career and he was untouchable. And he

395
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 4: used that to corese confessions, manipulate witnesses, to frame innocent people,

396
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:23,119
Speaker 4: and he got away with it. Detective Willcheck eventually retired

397
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 4: in May twenty sixteen after the Office of the Inspector

398
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,120
Speaker 4: General found that he had committed a litany of violations,

399
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 4: including making false reports, during the investigation of the events

400
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 4: that led up to Laqwan McDonald's shooting.

401
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 1: In case you don't remember, Lakwan MacDonald was a seventeen

402
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 1: year old kid who was alleged to have been walking

403
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,119
Speaker 1: down the street in Chicago welding a knife and was

404
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,880
Speaker 1: shot by officer Jason van Dyck after he allegedly refused

405
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,360
Speaker 1: to drop the weapon, and the police reports from multiple

406
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,399
Speaker 1: officers were pretty much identical as to what had happened.

407
00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,440
Speaker 3: So Wojet was the supervisor lieutenant in his case, but

408
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 3: he got a call from up higher and the call

409
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 3: was told him, I get that, didn't write Tony.

410
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 2: Can't you make this case go away? How you make

411
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 2: the case go away? You lieutenant? You investigate cases.

412
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 4: After Lakwan MacDonald was shot, Anthony Wiochik basically helped officers

413
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 4: make a bunch of reports.

414
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 2: And he wrote that this was just a Bible homicide.

415
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,679
Speaker 1: But then video emerged showing that Lakwan had been murdered,

416
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 1: Let's call it what it is, shot sixteen times, despite

417
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 1: having complied with Officer Van Dyke's order, and he was

418
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 1: not a threat. In fact, when he was killed, he

419
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 1: was walking away.

420
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,399
Speaker 2: And everybody say that it just one apple and the

421
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 2: barrel is just right. No, the barrol is writing.

422
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 1: And so with Octavius Morris's affie David, supported by Wolchik's

423
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,160
Speaker 1: pattern and practice evidence, Ashley, along with Jennifer bon Jean,

424
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 1: finally was able to get him back into court in

425
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen.

426
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 2: And they gave me the hearing.

427
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 3: Remember I say eighteen years, right, It took the Jewish

428
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 3: less than five minutes. Did deny my post deviction.

429
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 1: Roosevelt's trial judge from nineteen ninety six, Judge Porter, after

430
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 1: waiting eighteen years to follow through on the hearing he

431
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 1: granted back in two thousand, dismissed the ineffective assistance of

432
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:22,359
Speaker 1: council claim as untimely. Yeah. So while I try to

433
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 1: compose myself and get my shit together off, Mike Roosevelt

434
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 1: can tell us about how, instead of the justice he deserved,

435
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 1: he was paroled out after twenty eight years of his

436
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 1: sixty year sentence.

437
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,120
Speaker 3: So I got paroled two years short of thirty years

438
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 3: because of good conduct credit. I received my Pearl Loue

439
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 3: certificated state buil they county that worked twenty one years

440
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 3: in correctional industry.

441
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 2: So I got good time for that. So I was

442
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 2: released two years earl.

443
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 3: But the same time that I was a release in

444
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 3: the Tedi court decision that came down stating did I

445
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 3: get an evidentiary hearing?

446
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 4: Once we got back, we get back to judge Porter

447
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 4: recuses himself. We go to a second judge, Judge Rain's

448
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 4: Judge Rains. There's a whole other story there that involves

449
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 4: Jenny and Judge Rains being caught.

450
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 5: On a hot mic.

451
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: Judge Rains was on a zoom call that he thought

452
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 1: had ended, and he said something about Jennifer Bonjing to

453
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: the effect of, man, can you imagine waking up to

454
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: her every morning? Now? I find miss Bonding to be

455
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 1: a particularly wonderful individual, So I'm not sure what this

456
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 1: guy's problem was, But either way, those zoom calls were

457
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 1: recorded and they got leaked, it went viral.

458
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 4: He ends up not only recusing himself but having to

459
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 4: go to judge jail. So then finally we find ourselves

460
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,880
Speaker 4: in front of Judge Howard, and she presided over Cain

461
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 4: and Abrigo's evidentiary hearing. So she had been a little

462
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 4: familiar with Anthony Wochik and all the pattern in practice.

463
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 4: And we get ready to go to our hearing December fifth,

464
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 4: twenty twenty two. He was locked up December seventh, in

465
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 4: nineteen ninety two, it was almost to the day Octavius

466
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 4: Morris shows up. We're all ready to go, and the

467
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 4: state's attorney, Todd Dombrowski, says that they're going to agree

468
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 4: to post conviction relief and dismiss the charges and vacated

469
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 4: his conviction.

470
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 3: So I came home in twenty twenty and twenty twenty two,

471
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 3: I was desgonerated. Twenty twenty four, I got a certificate

472
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 3: and isdent.

473
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 4: You have to affirmatively prove that you're actually innocent, which

474
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,640
Speaker 4: I by statue in Illinois, if you are actually innocent,

475
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 4: you could be entitled to compensation. I think it maxes

476
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 4: out around two hundred and fifty five thousand, two hundred

477
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,640
Speaker 4: and seventy five thousand dollars. And we're like, great, they're

478
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 4: not going to intervene in this. The State's not going

479
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,959
Speaker 4: to take a position because they vacated his charges.

480
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 5: But lo and behold they did.

481
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: This decision really struck me as strange. The current office

482
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 1: has done really great work and has been very transparent

483
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: in acknowledging the city's dark past and those responsible for

484
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: many of whom have been repeatedly profiled here John Birge

485
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 1: and the Midnight Crew detectives Guevara and Halverson. But despite

486
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 1: the condemning evidence against Anthony Wochick. They'd go so far

487
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: as to try to leave Roosevelt in limbo. Charge is dismissed,

488
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: but not willing to admit to and endorse his innocence

489
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 1: as they clearly should.

490
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 4: Wichuk is a very big problem for the city of Chicago.

491
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 4: But for some reason, and I'm noticing a lot like

492
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 4: the Cook County State's Attorney's office. While they're willing to

493
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 4: admit that Guevara was a bad officer, they are not

494
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 4: willing to admit that Wochik was a bad officer. They

495
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 4: will do whatever to protect that man. And when that happens,

496
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 4: it seems to me that there has to be some

497
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 4: other reason why. There is some political something going on

498
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 4: that suggests that there is a reason to protect him.

499
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: But eventually there's a little light at the end of

500
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 1: this long, miserable tunnel.

501
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 4: July thirty first, we went to a five hour, contentious

502
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 4: hearing arguing the state was trying to say that he

503
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 4: can't affirmatively prove his innocence, and the judge same day

504
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 4: said this case had slim evidence to begin with, and

505
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 4: there is no evidence to rebut what Roosevelt is saying,

506
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 4: so he gets his certificate of innocence.

507
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 5: End of story.

508
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: I wish you all the best in the civil litigation, Roosevelt.

509
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 1: There's no amount that they could ever forgive you that

510
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 1: would make up for this. But in the meantime, is

511
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 1: there anything that you'd like, any action steps that you'd

512
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 1: like our audience to take.

513
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 3: I won't tell the audience. You know I'm doing good.

514
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 3: I have no profit organization in por call help break

515
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 3: the chain. I'vedafted the school while go in I do

516
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 3: one on ones with students and small groups, and I

517
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 3: try to better myself each and every day. God wakes

518
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 3: me up and give me life. Everything got the that

519
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 3: I'd give back to him, So I'm not bitter. I

520
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 3: just hate that I lost my parents seven months apart

521
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 3: in sixteen to seventeen. But I know they watch his

522
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 3: old me, every movie, every step I make, and I'm

523
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 3: just happy to have my Earth angels in my corn.

524
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 2: Ashley and Jennifer.

525
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 3: These young ladies brought me out of here, out of Pitiphire,

526
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 3: and brought me to life, gave me life back as

527
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 3: they do.

528
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 2: With so many others.

529
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 3: We're family, That's all I can say. We're family, and

530
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 3: I'd just like to see Woji have his day in

531
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 3: court where everybody sees his true clothes and who this

532
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 3: man really is.

533
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: Amen to that, and we're going to have your nonprofit

534
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: linked in the episode description, so for anyone who wants

535
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: to get involved, please check it out. And with that

536
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 1: we go now to closing arguments, where first of all,

537
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: I thank both of you again for sharing this unbelievable story.

538
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: I'm gonna kick back in my chair with my microphone

539
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: off and my headphones on and just listen to anything

540
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: else you want to share. Ashley, you go first, and

541
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: then Roosevelt, you take us off into the sunset.

542
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,719
Speaker 5: For the sixty year in a row.

543
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 4: Chicago ranked the first in the number of exonerations across

544
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 4: the United States. They are the wrongful conviction cap of

545
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 4: the world. They've paid over seven hundred and thirty five

546
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 4: million dollars in connection with lawsuits for wrongful convictions. The

547
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 4: number does not consider the attorney's fees and the cost

548
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 4: paid to private firms to defend these unwinnable cases, and

549
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 4: there's over two hundred wrongful conviction cases currently pending in

550
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 4: the Northern District of Illinois right now. There were issues

551
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 4: back in the nineties in the eighties. That really hurt

552
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 4: a lot of people, and it should trigger something in

553
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 4: the City of Chicago to say, you know what, we

554
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 4: really need to evaluate these cases. We need to look

555
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 4: at these individuals, assess their cases early on, and provide compensation.

556
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 4: I mean, Roosevelt's sixty years old. He doesn't want to

557
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 4: spend the next seven years fighting in court. He'd be

558
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 4: open to a reasonable settlement amount for what he went through,

559
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 4: because we all know there's absolutely no amount of money

560
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 4: that can compensate somebody for wrongful conviction. Give them the

561
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 4: opportunity to rebuild their life and to start a new

562
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 4: and fairly, and then maybe you'll save some money. Maybe

563
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 4: don't think about you know, oh, how it's going to

564
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 4: hurt your pocket. Now, think about down the road. It's

565
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 4: going to hurt a lot more when the city goes

566
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 4: bankrupt because they have twenty two hundred wrongful conviction cases

567
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 4: that they have to pay out astronomical money and also

568
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 4: two attorneys fees. It's just it's so short sighted, and

569
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 4: there really needs to be somebody who comes in who

570
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 4: looks at these cases for what they are early on

571
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 4: and figures out how to settle them in a way

572
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 4: that makes the individual on the other side happy enough.

573
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 5: To move on with their life. It's a real problem,

574
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 5: and I really hope somebody can figure this out for

575
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 5: all of them.

576
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 3: All right, I like, thank lover and you guys doing

577
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 3: what y'all do. It helps show America what Chicago's really

578
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 3: about when it comes to these wrongful convictions.

579
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 2: We need to take the whole justice.

580
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 3: System, ill know, and get it Redone need a due over,

581
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 3: just like you're doing makeover.

582
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 2: Need a due over.

583
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 3: I wrote DOJ a Baptist years ago, and they wrote

584
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 3: me back and said they gonna work on it. Yet

585
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 3: it still hasn't happened, But now one of the former

586
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 3: lawyers on my case is working to change it. We

587
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 3: need change because if we don't, it's gonna be a

588
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 3: whole lot of payment coming. And it's a lot of

589
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 3: people that's in prison for wrongful conviction, not count the

590
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 3: people that didn't even fight it and came home from

591
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 3: these wrongful convictions.

592
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 2: You know, I know a lot of them. They gave up.

593
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 2: So I just wanted us to be back right right,

594
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 2: society back right, man.

595
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 3: You know, we need to get let the legislators and

596
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 3: they'll know to sit down and go to work on it,

597
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 3: because it's a bill out now where they'll pay me

598
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 3: zero point five million for my cl I.

599
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 2: All you got to do is sign that bill, quitn

600
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 2: sitting on it. But I'm here.

601
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 3: I'm here to testify that God is good, people are good,

602
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 3: and I know that our lesson lady got some type

603
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 3: of goods in their heart where they see this, because

604
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 3: my case should never happened and it should never linger

605
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 3: in court for twenty two years like it done.

606
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen

607
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one

608
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava for

609
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our

610
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: production team, Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as

611
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Cliburn.

612
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: The music in this production was supplied by three time

613
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us

614
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and

615
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram

616
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is the production of

617
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: Lava for Good podcasts in association with signal company Number

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00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 1: one