WEBVTT - Ask Dr. Ramani: What is Gaslighting? 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.240 Hey, Navigators, you ask for it. Now here it is 0:00:03.480 --> 0:00:08.000 on this episode of Navigating Narcissism. I'm answering all of 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:12.000 your burning questions about twenty twenty two's word of the 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:18.840 Year gaslighting. Now, hundreds of you send us emails, comments, 0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:21.759 and even slid into our dms, and we have a 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:25.480 lot to get through as a result, So let's get 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:28.840 right to it. This podcast should not be used as 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:32.760 a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:37.479 advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:41.960 from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:47.159 mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:52.000 this podcast. The views and opinions expressed are solely those 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:57.600 of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:03.040 and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:08.959 or their employees. So first up, Christine asks, why is 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:13.320 it so destabilizing to be gaslighted by a narcissist? I 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:18.160 find myself feeling grounded and steady, and then one interaction 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:22.440 with my narcissistic wife can leave me so lost. Do 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:26.280 you have any tips for staying grounded? It's a great question, 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:28.440 and I'm going to go backwards on this question a 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:30.959 little bit just to sort of set some groundwork here. 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:35.240 Let's start by talking about what gaslighting is, because there's 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:41.120 so much misunderstanding about what it is. Gaslighting is a process, right, 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:45.039 It's not one thing that a person does. Gaslighting first 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:49.640 of all, requires some form of relationship or trust between 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:53.560 you and the gaslighter. You don't really know someone, or 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:56.360 you don't really believe they have any expertise, they're less 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.000 likely to be able to shift your reality. So in 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:01.280 that first step, you've got in some form of relationship, 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:03.120 someone you're getting to know, someone you want to know, 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:06.840 someone you already know, like a family member, and obviously, 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:09.959 very commonly it's a spouse or partner, someone you want 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:13.399 to believe in, someone you in theory trust. The next 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:21.560 step is that they deny your reality, perceptions, experiences, things 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:26.240 that literally happened reality in general. So it's a denial 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:31.400 of reality and that can often look like lying. And 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:33.400 I'll talk more about that in a moment. Could be 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:37.840 anything from you hung the keys on the hook and 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:40.160 then they moved them and said no, you didn't. It 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:42.680 could be them moving the remote and them saying it 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:45.519 is a place that it's not. It could be them 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:48.560 saying you can't be hungry, you just ate, but you 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:51.520 are hungry. So it could be a denial of anything, 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:54.480 not just the reality of the environment, but how you feel. 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:57.880 Even something you may remember. They might say that never happened, 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:03.320 and that thing did happen. If it's stopped there, that's 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:08.000 not gaslighting, because gaslighting has one more step to it, 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:12.800 which is that they dismantle you. They leave you feeling 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:17.000 like there's something wrong with you. So it's things like 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.639 you're really paranoid, always thinking I'm texting someone else on 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:24.000 my phone, or you're seeming more and more mentally unstable. 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:26.440 Are you okay, It doesn't seem like you're remembering anything 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:31.120 right anymore. They may suggest that you have dementia or paranoia, 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:34.639 or that you need therapy. But no matter what they're suggesting, 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:38.760 there's something not quite right with you. They've just denied 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:42.720 reality or perception. They're doubling down by telling you there's 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:46.240 something wrong with you. And the final piece of gaslighting 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:49.440 to remember is that it doesn't just happen once. The 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:53.440 reason gaslighting works is because it happens repeatedly. It's not 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:57.520 one time that they lie about where the remote is 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:01.840 or accuse you of not being hungry. It's over and 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:06.320 over and over again every day, sometimes multiple times a day. 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:09.440 So that's gaslighting. And a lot of people say, well, 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:13.840 isn't gaslighting narcissism? Is that the same thing. No, Narcissism's 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:17.320 a personality style. Though we talk about on navigating narcissism. 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:20.760 The usual laundry lists are people who have at best 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:26.760 variable or inconsistent empathy, or very little empathy. They're entitled, grandiose, 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:32.160 really superficial, chronically validation seeking, need to have a lot 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:36.599 of control, They're really insecure. That's the narcissism piece. A 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:41.360 great way to remember this is that all narcissists gaslight, 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:46.159 but not all gaslighters are narcissistic. You might be wondering, 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:49.920 what does it do to us? Oh, my goodness, not good. 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:53.400 It leaves you feeling like there is something wrong with you. 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:57.920 You do blame yourself, You doubt yourself. You actually may 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:01.479 literally feel like you're losing your mind, and if it 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:05.640 happens again consistently and for a long enough time, you 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:09.880 completely lose any belief in your decision making abilities. You'll say, 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:12.159 don't trust me with that. I don't know what I'm doing, 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:16.200 even though you're an incredibly competent person. So that is 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:18.760 why gaslighting is often considered to be a form of 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:23.039 emotional abuse, because it is done so inconsistently, and it 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:27.520 really really does tremendous psychological and mental harm to the 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:31.039 person who is being gaslight at. Christine is asking here, 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:35.080 why is it so destabilizing to be gaslighted by a narcissist? 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:38.480 For all of these reasons, because you're going through life 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:40.640 and you know what's right, you know what you know, 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:42.320 you know what you don't know, you know where you 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:44.440 left the keys, you know what you ate for breakfast, 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:47.400 you know you're not hungry or hungry or cold or whatever. 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:50.359 And now someone's coming along and saying no, you're not, 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:54.479 or that's not when the appointment is. And like I said, 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:58.240 it's the repeated nature of gaslighting that it happens so 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:01.560 often that when it happens again, even once, even if 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:04.360 you're having a good day, the minute you're hit with gaslighting, 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:08.000 you again feel like you're walking on really unsteady ground. 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:11.039 The final part of her question is is that do 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:15.000 you have any tips for staying grounded. A big part 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:17.919 of staying grounded in the face of gaslighting is to 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:21.039 know that you are being gaslighted, so to even just 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:24.680 simply understand the phenomenon saying I know where I put 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:27.320 the keys. I put the keys in the same place 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:31.839 every day. If they got moved, they were moved by someone. 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:34.520 But I know where the keys are, and this person 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:37.440 is messing with me. I'm not disorganized. I know that 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:41.080 about myself. It does require, like all forms of healing 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:46.160 from narcissistic abuse, that you understand you. You know what 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:49.040 you're about, if you know that you're an organized person, 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:52.200 if you know that you're not a paranoid person. These 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:54.640 are things you should know about yourself and can give 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:59.719 yourself permission to know about yourself. Gaslighting and narcissistic relationships 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.240 pull us away from knowing about ourself. So part of 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:05.560 the work you can do on your own is how 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:07.960 do I get reacquainted with what I know to be 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:11.640 true about me, about the world, about my environment, so 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:14.560 that when you are being gaslighted, you can be a 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:17.520 little bit more steadfast. I'm going to give you an example, 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:20.880 because watching an encounter between two people, the person had 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:23.800 a doctor's appointment at eleven o'clock in the morning. The 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.880 gas slighter kept saying, no, it's not your appointments at noon. 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:30.040 The person whose appointment was at eleven was really really 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:32.960 careful about these doctor's appointments because they were difficult to 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:35.240 get and she knew she was going to be late. 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:37.600 She was going to lose the appointment. The gas lighter 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:41.480 doubled and tripled down. The person whose appointment it was, 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:45.760 who was being gaslighted, knew what gaslighting was. Instead of 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:49.280 getting into an argument, which would have been destabilizing, she 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:52.200 had the little card, the appointment card, and on top 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:56.200 of that, she called the doctor's office on speaker, got 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:58.640 through to the receptionist and said, Hi, it's such and such. 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:02.960 I'm just confirming my appointment time today. Through the speaker 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:06.960 came the receptionist's voice saying, your appointment's at eleven. Now 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:10.200 you can see the multiple problems here. If this person, 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:12.080 if she succumbed to the gas lighter, she would have 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:14.920 missed the appointment, which was an important appointment. When the 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:17.720 gas lighter heard that, said to the person, so do 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:20.480 you feel better because you love making people feel small, 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:24.120 don't you? Oh? You're so pompous. You're such a pompous lady, 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:26.800 always walking around thinking you're so smart. And I just 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:29.160 want you to know, now you've thrown off my whole day. 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:31.120 All I do is for you, and now I have 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:33.160 thrown off my day having to take you to this 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:37.280 appointment when it works for you. What's the person supposed 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:40.160 to do with that? The person who was gaslighted, though, 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:43.040 told me later on. She said, as frustrating as it 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:46.160 was to deal with him, there was a solidity I 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:49.160 felt that I knew when that appointment was and that 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:51.720 I knew he would never believe me. So the receptionist's 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:55.120 voice coming through, she said, for me, the prize was 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:58.680 getting to the appointment on time. Those kinds of things, 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:00.720 remembering those things you're in never going to make them 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:03.679 stop gaslighting you, but figuring out the things you can 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:07.400 do that will allow your life to run in a 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:11.160 through pathway, to be straight and clear, be clear on 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:15.040 who you are in this situation, and then not misimportant 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:17.600 things to you, like this woman in her doctor's appointment. 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:20.640 It still doesn't feel good, but at least it may 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:24.880 not throw you off. This next question so good. Next 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:29.040 Sarah wants to know. My friends are always saying that 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:32.120 they're being gaslighted. How do we know if they are? 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:36.520 Isn't gaslighting just a fancy name for lying. So there's 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:38.600 a lot there. Let's start from the top, which is 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:40.560 everybody became the word of the year, right, so of 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:43.040 course everyone's going to be talking about it. One of 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:45.440 the struggles is a lot of people aren't using it 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:48.880 the right way. Let me tell you what gaslighting is not. 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:53.520 Gaslighting is not a difference of opinion. Gaslighting is not 0:09:55.240 --> 0:10:01.400 challenging someone's beliefs. Gaslighting is not Lyinglight is that multi 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:04.640 step process I was talking about where a person's reality, experience, 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:09.079 or perception is denied, then told there's something wrong with them, 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:12.480 rince lather, repeat. It just keeps going and going and going. 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:15.559 So it's a process. It's not a one off. So 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:18.679 you having a different opinion I love that band, that 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:22.520 band is terrible. That's not gaslighting. That's just the two 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:27.000 of you not liking the same band. Now, for example, 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:33.840 somebody saying you were late, No I wasn't you were late, No, 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:37.120 I wasn't believe it or not. That sequence is also 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:40.400 not gaslighting. A lot of people think that that sequence 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:43.520 is gaslighting because that person saying they're not late, like, well, 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:46.400 we were supposed to start at eight and you came 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:50.559 at nine. That makes you late. That other person said, 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:54.400 is a party. I thought coming at nine would be fine. 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:57.520 What that person's not doing is saying there's something wrong 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:00.360 with you. You're too rigid thinking eight o'clock was on time. 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:02.760 If they just keep going back and forth, you were late, 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:04.760 No I'm not. You were late, No, I'm not. That's 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:09.720 not gaslighting. It's annoying, it's frustrating. But it is two 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:12.600 people again having a difference of opinion, even when it's 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:16.480 something as clear cut as a schedule. Another issue that 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:18.920 comes up with this idea of what is gaslighting what 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:23.040 isn't it is this dynamic of misremembering things from the past, right, 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:26.640 And if two people have been witnessed or experienced something, 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:31.319 If you had an experience of something, especially when it's 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:35.400 very psychologically significant, an experience of abuse so or a 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:39.240 really negative experience within a family, or feeling neglected, and 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:43.960 the family members say that wasn't true, you were totally 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:47.840 well taken care of. To me, that's in gaslight territory. 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:51.199 Because the person saying I had this recollection that X, Y, 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:54.760 and Z bad things were happening, the person saying that's 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:58.199 not true, and they're over correcting, like you actually had 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:02.240 a really great childhood when there's two, if you will, 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:06.280 versions of history that are being put out there. The 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:09.600 way for it to not be gaslighting is if that 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:13.720 both people in the conversation can hold space for the 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:19.280 idea that we may actually have had very different experiences 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:25.080 of this, but not negating the experience of the other person. Hey, 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:30.679 I remember childhood being this hostile, terrible, neglectful experience, and 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:35.280 the parent can say, I am so sorry. That is 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:38.840 so hard to recall your childhood to be that way. 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:43.000 It's hard for me. I'm remembering it a different way. 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:48.000 But I hear that you had an experience. That's not gaslighting. 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:51.240 But for a person to say, what's wrong with you? 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:54.400 You had a perfectly fine childhood. Stop complaining everyone on 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:57.320 the block was living the way we did, that's gaslighting 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:01.000 that difference in recall. The only way to push back 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:05.120 to not have a gaslighted interaction about that is to 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:08.720 be able to simultaneously be aware that maybe we did 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:13.000 have different experiences and remembrances, but just because you had 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:16.880 a different recollection that you never invalidate the experience of 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:19.640 another person. Let me tell you, folks, this is a 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:23.640 really hard line to toe because our only frame of 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:27.200 reference is our own. But in the healthiest human relationships 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:33.600 is they happen when both people feel that their experience 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:38.079 can be witnessed by the other person and not questioned, 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:41.800 even if the other person didn't have the same experience. 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:44.880 And it's tricky, and in families it's where it is trickiest. 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:48.439 But even at a societal level, the way people will 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:51.720 look back at periods of our history when things happened, 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:55.360 things that relate to race and ethnicity, things that relate 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:58.840 to gender, things that relate to sexual orientation, groups of 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:03.640 people who have experiences that were absolutely traumatic and that 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:07.760 would be minimized by people who didn't have those experiences. Oh, 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:10.200 come on, now, get over it. That period of history 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:14.920 is over. That's gaslighting, because those periods of history shape 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:18.880 the identity of people who have those shared identities going forward. 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:22.960 So this is bigger than just two people misremembering something 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:26.360 in a family. This has to do literally with how 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:29.520 we hold history within ourselves and how we talk about it. 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:35.280 Now we have a question from Grant who asks, how 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:41.200 do you call out a gaslighter? This is tricky? So 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:45.360 calling people out is always tricky business, Okay, especially when 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:49.600 it's about something as we're learning, is so heated as gaslighting. 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:54.480 But I still think actually it's a useful thing to do. 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:57.160 People will say, what am I supposed to do if 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:00.160 I see someone being gaslighted? Do I get it in 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:03.000 there and do I help them? And to which I'd say, 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:05.760 absolutely yes if it's safe for you, and like, well, 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:08.400 one would it be unsafe? Oftentimes at work it can 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:10.520 be unsafe, But how do you get in there? And 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:13.360 it's sort of ungaslight someone in real time? If they're 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:16.800 being gaslighted by someone, you can really step in and say, yeah, 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:19.240 that's not what I heard her say. She had said this, 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:22.360 that's how I heard it. And so what happens is 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:25.880 now you've validated the reality of the person being gaslighted, 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:28.120 who believe it or not, just with that little bit 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:32.040 of validation, will feel a lot stronger and might even 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:34.960 be able to take it from there, because what happens 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:39.280 is when we're gaslighted, anybody who has empathy and compassion 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:42.280 is very gaslighted. Bule because they're willing to hold plausibly 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:44.760 like maybe I'm wrong, maybe I didn't remember that right 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:47.560 right as we're open to that, and the gaslighter runs 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:50.440 with that. But if someone else says you didn't remember 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:54.360 that wrong, I was there, That's what happened. Boom. It's 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:57.040 like putting water on the wicked witch, like you melt it. 0:15:57.680 --> 0:15:59.520 What if you are in a situation though, where you 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:01.880 can't speak tek out. Where this comes up most commonly 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:04.800 is in the workplace, you might see someone more senior 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.720 gaslighting someone who's more subordinate, and you yourself may be 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:10.560 in that same level. You're not as senior as the 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:14.520 person doing the gaslighting. Something that can be really useful 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:18.440 is if after the meeting you take a side the 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:21.280 person who's gaslighted as soon as you can after the 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:24.160 meeting and say, hey, I want you to know I 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:27.240 heard that and what they did to you was gaslighting. 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:29.200 I was there when we had that meeting. I was 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:32.000 there and I read that memo. You were right. I'm 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:34.960 sorry that happened to you. I hope you're okay, but 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:38.080 I saw that I have actually had that happen in 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:41.280 professional settings, and it was a literal game changer for 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:44.680 me because I would leave the meeting feeling terrible, and 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:46.600 someone once did that. They cut me off of the pass. 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:48.480 So I was going to the restroom after the meeting 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:51.160 and they said I heard that, and I saw that, 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:55.120 and that wasn't cool, and I'm sorry. The workplace remained toxic, 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:58.120 but I went home that day feeling sane, which, let 0:16:58.120 --> 0:16:59.680 me tell you, there was no gift in the world 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:03.880 great than that. So that's the piece about calling out gaslighting. Now, 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:08.000 gaslighters gaslight, and they may not want to be stopped 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:10.159 in that even if you did it in trying to 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:13.280 protect someone, they don't like that. They do not like 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:17.560 their process being thwarted, because remember, gaslighting is not just 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:21.359 about saying my reality is better than yours. It's about power, 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:25.320 control and dominance. The gaslighter wants things the way they 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:27.880 want them. They want to be big and they want 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.879 everyone else to be small. That's what they're trying to create. 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:34.159 So you walking in there with your Google moment and 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:38.320 trying to educate them on gaslighting is probably not going 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.800 to be well met. If you want to take the argument, 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:44.560 then by all means you do you, but keep in 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:47.879 mind that they're probably if they really are a hardcore 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:51.000 gas lighter, and especially if they're narcissistic, are going to 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:52.719 sort of minimize you and say you don't know what 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:55.719 you're talking about, and then they might actually start gaslighting you. 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:58.879 I think that the more useful play in all of 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:02.000 this is to talk with the people who are being 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:05.639 gaslighted or who think they're being gaslighted, and helped show 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:09.199 them what's happening, what's what, and what's not what. That 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:11.720 might be the best way to approach this. But trying 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:13.439 to call out a gaslight er is like trying to 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:16.400 call out a narcissist. By and large, it gets you nowhere. 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:18.720 It might get you in a big argument. But I 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:21.359 have to say, and this came up in a conversation 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:23.480 with a friend of mine. She said, you know what, 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:26.080 if I'm being gaslighted, I don't like that. I don't 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:27.679 want to put up with it. I said, then don't 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:29.920 take the fight, and she said, I think I'd feel 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:32.359 sick if I couldn't take the fight. What we're trying 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:34.960 to do is keep you from feeling sick. So if 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:38.400 you feel ready to take on the gaslight fight, then 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:41.560 take it. But understand that it's going to get very 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:44.800 distorted and shape shifted and uncomfortable. But if you want 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:47.520 to take the argument, take the argument, recognize it's going 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:50.359 to get really confusing. But if you're someone who doesn't 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:53.840 like conflict, have really been harmed by long term manipulation, 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:57.880 and find these situations to be really unsettling, I would 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:00.920 say calling them out is probably not doing you any favors, 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:04.760 and trying to educate them on gaslighting is like trying 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:07.919 to educate a pickpocket on ethics. You're probably not going 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:11.800 to get very far. So choose your battles, and you 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:15.000 may do more in being a real supporter and an 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:19.000 ally to somebody who's being gaslighted and letting them know, 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:22.920 either in private or in real time, that you see 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:25.720 what's happening and that it's not okay. So this is 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:29.240 an interesting one. Gino asks, I was in a coffee 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:34.480 shop recently and I saw someone who got really upset 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:36.960 when their coffee order came up, but they put the 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:39.680 wrong name on the coffee cup, which meant they had 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.120 to wait a minute before they got their coffee even 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:44.680 though it was ready. And then that person got really 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:49.919 mad at the barista and said you're gaslighting me. Now, 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:56.360 that's not gaslighting. Now, if the Starbucks barista had pointed 0:19:56.400 --> 0:20:00.680 to the cup and said you must have a reading problem, 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:06.679 that is your name gaslighting. But this person just being 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:09.840 the barista making a mistake or something like that, that 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:13.760 kind of issue not gaslighting. So if a waiter were 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:16.960 to bring someone the wrong meal. Okay, you're in a restaurant, 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:20.119 the waiter brings you the salmon and that's not what 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:24.640 you ordered and they walk away, that's not gaslighting. That's 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:30.320 a mistake. And the overuse of this term in all 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:34.040 of these kinds of situations being given the wrong thing. 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:37.400 I saw this actually happen on a flight once when 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.280 somebody thought they were in a certain seat and the 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:44.240 flight attendant said, no, you're one row back, and the 0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:46.960 person told the flight attendant, you're gaslighting me. The flight 0:20:47.000 --> 0:20:49.639 attendant actually wasn't gaslighting them. They sat in the wrong 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:52.480 seat and they were one row back. I think it 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:55.320 was thirteen C fourteen C kind of a thing. That's 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:58.159 not someone gaslighting them, it's that someone saying this is 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:01.520 what your boarding pass says. There's a real issue here 0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:04.480 because a lot of people are using gaslighting as a 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:09.520 term for when they're inconvenienced, and being inconvenienced is not 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:16.920 being gaslighted. It's being inconvenienced. Always remember denial of reality, perception, experience, 0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:21.280 and then dismantling. There's something wrong with you. You have memory problems, 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:25.720 you're obsessive, you're controlling, you're narcissistic, whatever they're accusing you of. 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:30.160 It's that combination that makes gaslighting. Someone getting your coffee 0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:34.760 name wrong, while maybe quite upsetting, perhaps it even hurts 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:39.480 your feelings, but it's not gaslighting. My conversation will continue 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:50.600 after this break. So Michelle wants to know are certain 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:55.919 personality types more susceptible to gaslighting? This is such a 0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:58.199 great question because that's always the issue. Are there some 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:01.399 people out there that are gaslight proof? And the answer 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:04.159 to that is no. So let's start with some brass 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:09.440 tacks here. The more privileged somebody has the less gaslight 0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:13.000 of all they are because they've almost been given societal 0:22:13.040 --> 0:22:16.960 permission for a really long time. That what you're saying 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:20.840 is right, and people who have less societal power they're wrong. 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:24.879 When we think about the original movie Gaslight, it was 0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:29.560 an older husband who was gaslighting a younger wife. So 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:32.200 there was a gender dynamic, there was an age dynamic 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:34.640 because of the era it happened, there was a powered 0:22:34.760 --> 0:22:38.439 dynamic difference. So all of those things were happening making 0:22:38.600 --> 0:22:43.480 him more gaslighty of her, her ability to gaslight him 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:45.840 was going to be a lot more limited. Because he 0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:49.560 did have more societal power, more people were more likely 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:51.920 to go along with what he says, which is why 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:55.399 many times people who do have more societal privilege and 0:22:55.440 --> 0:22:58.360 power will often look sideways when somebody says I'm being 0:22:58.400 --> 0:23:01.720 gaslight and they are actually being gaslighted, because it tends 0:23:01.760 --> 0:23:04.720 not to happen up, it tends to happen down in 0:23:04.800 --> 0:23:07.880 terms of power. So keep that peace in mind. So 0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:12.000 anyone who holds less power in a situation for any reason, 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:15.159 because they literally do because it's work, because of age, 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:19.159 because of dynamics in a family, because of money, because 0:23:19.200 --> 0:23:23.200 of race, because of ethnicity, gender, any of those issues, 0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:26.080 that more empowered person is going to be more likely 0:23:26.240 --> 0:23:30.200 to be able to pull off gaslighting someone less powerful. 0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:35.080 That's one thing. Second piece, when people have more empathy 0:23:35.119 --> 0:23:38.440 and compassion, I had to say this, they're more likely 0:23:38.480 --> 0:23:42.600 to be gaslightable because they're willing to be open to 0:23:42.680 --> 0:23:45.920 the idea that, well, to be empathic, maybe I am responsible, 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:48.200 maybe I did put the keys in the wrong place. 0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:51.480