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Speaker 1: Pushkin. How many times have you been stung?

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Speaker 2: Many?

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Speaker 1: Ten?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, one hundred. Probably each season I get

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Speaker 2: a few be stunks. I mean, we do kind of

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Speaker 2: a nasty things to the bee hive. We still want

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Speaker 2: larvae to check the immune priming effects, and they don't

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Speaker 2: like it.

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Speaker 3: Obviously, I can't blame them.

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Speaker 1: So you're telling me you had it coming.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I had it coming. I also sell it to

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Speaker 2: all my students. That's okay, that's normal. Just let me know.

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Speaker 2: If you develop allergies.

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Speaker 1: Does it make it harder to get students to come

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Speaker 1: work with you?

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Speaker 2: No, No, not at all.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, the

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Speaker 1: show where I talk to people who are trying to

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Speaker 1: make tech logical progress. I have two guests today. One

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Speaker 1: is Dhali al Freytech. That's who you just heard. The

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Speaker 1: other is Anetta Claiser. Together they are the co founders

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Speaker 1: of a company called Dalon Animal Health, and they have

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Speaker 1: brought to market a vaccine for bees. It is the

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Speaker 1: first ever vaccine for any insect, and their story is

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Speaker 1: interesting and important on a number of levels, including, but

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Speaker 1: not limited to, how do you even make a vaccine

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Speaker 1: for an insect? Also what's going on with bees these

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Speaker 1: days anyways? And if you can vaccinate bees, what other

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Speaker 1: insects might you want a vaccinate. Annettaklizer is the CEO.

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Speaker 1: She spent her career working in technology transfer, basically figuring

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Speaker 1: out how to turn academics ideas into real world products

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Speaker 1: and businesses. Later in the show, we'll have my interview

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Speaker 1: with Annetta about testing the vaccine and bringing it to

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Speaker 1: market and also what's happening with bees and the bee

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Speaker 1: industry such as it is. But first we're going to

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Speaker 1: play my conversation with dhali Al about the basic research

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Speaker 1: she did that led to this idea of a vaccine

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Speaker 1: for bees.

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Speaker 2: So when I started to work on insect immunity two

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Speaker 2: decades ago, where was not a lot known about it,

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Speaker 2: So it was a bit. It was really like I

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Speaker 2: would say, in kindo shoes.

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Speaker 1: Kinder shoes like baby shoes. Yeah, baby shoes.

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Speaker 2: I think it's in English English interest. I'm sorry, but

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Speaker 2: it was really like the beginnings of it. Basically, it

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Speaker 2: was it was a stage where something is happening, but

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Speaker 2: we don't know what it is.

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Speaker 1: At some point you get interested in this question of

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Speaker 1: can be's acquire immunity. Can they become immune based on

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Speaker 1: exposure to a pathogen? How does that arise? How does

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Speaker 1: that question arise?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that question actually arrived during my PhD time when

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Speaker 2: I've worked with.

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Speaker 1: Moffs and not with that Okay, yeah.

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Speaker 2: It was before honeybees. So the observation what I made

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Speaker 2: during the time was like, if a parental generation was

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Speaker 2: growing up in the environment where a lot of bacteria present,

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Speaker 2: the immunity in the second generation was changed. Now, insects

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Speaker 2: do not have antibodies, and we've been looking for for

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Speaker 2: decades we haven't found and they do not exist in

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Speaker 2: insects as we know it today at least, And yet

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Speaker 2: I observe certain transfer of knowledge of immune system activation

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Speaker 2: to the second generation. And it was just like super

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Speaker 2: exciting discoveries, like how is that possible? What is happening?

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Speaker 2: Because they don't have antibodies, so there must be some

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Speaker 2: other mechanism what is at play? And so that's what

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Speaker 2: really caught me kind of fooked in that question. So

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Speaker 2: how does that transfer happen? And that's there. The honeybee

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Speaker 2: was really the model to study for me that kind

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Speaker 2: of helped really to progress and knowledge.

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Speaker 1: And so so so so you see that there is

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Speaker 1: inherited immunity, right, that offspring have have some kind of

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Speaker 1: immunity that they get from their parents. And the question

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Speaker 1: is how does how does that happen? What's the mechanism exactly?

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Speaker 2: And so what I actually started to think about when

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Speaker 2: it's like, okay, let's take a step back and let's

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Speaker 2: think how does the parental generation encounter pathogens like American

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Speaker 2: fault root in honeybees? So how do we encounter it?

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Speaker 2: And the answer is very simple. They eat it. Basically,

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Speaker 2: It's it's a kind of like the digestive tract infection,

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Speaker 2: like it would be salmonella in humans. Right, you would

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Speaker 2: eat it in you would get.

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Speaker 1: Sick, food borne disease. Food. That's how these get infectious.

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Speaker 2: Disease exactly in this case in American foul broot, that's

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Speaker 2: that's a food borne disease. And so my my next

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Speaker 2: question what happens was what happens with bacteria in the

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Speaker 2: gut And the very simple answer, they get digested, They

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Speaker 2: get cut into little pieces by the enzymes, by digestive enzymes,

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Speaker 2: by immune system. Now, the next question was what happens

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Speaker 2: with the pieces? That was really for me this fascinating

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Speaker 2: discovery where I saw that these little pieces of bacteria

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Speaker 2: are transferred from a digestive system to the body cavity

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Speaker 2: and I was like, okay, cool, and we know once

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Speaker 2: they are there they can activate. These pieces of bacteria

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Speaker 2: can activate immune system. We know that because the immune

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Speaker 2: system receptors are in these parts in the body cavity,

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Speaker 2: and they could trigger an immunity, which is cool. But

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Speaker 2: this would be within one generation. So how would this

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Speaker 2: knowledge of encountering this bacteria be transferred from one generation

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Speaker 2: to a number? So that was a fascinating question.

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Speaker 1: And I know that to answer that question, you wind

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Speaker 1: up looking at this at this particular protein. It's called

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Speaker 1: vitellogen in right, and it's in eggs, in all kinds

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Speaker 1: of eggs, in b eggs and in chicken eggs. So

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Speaker 1: and you wind up looking at this protein as sort

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Speaker 1: of tea to the way that immunity gets passed from

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Speaker 1: the queen to her offspring. So how did you figure

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Speaker 1: that out?

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Speaker 2: Yes, so there was absolutely And I do remember this moment.

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Speaker 2: It's it was we had a lab meeting in hell

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Speaker 2: Sinking and then this new post talk in our group.

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Speaker 2: She presented her work on the honeybee Betelo Jenny, and

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Speaker 2: she mentioned in her talk, oh and in fish it's

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Speaker 2: shown that vitellogenny can buy into bacteria. That was like

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Speaker 2: this one sentence and for me it was like, oh

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Speaker 2: my god, this must be my shuttle bus for the

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Speaker 2: pieces of bacteria. So after the lab meeting was over,

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Speaker 2: I asked, can I talk to you for a moment.

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Speaker 2: So I said, hey, I believe that your protein takes

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Speaker 2: my signal to next generation. Do you have some of

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Speaker 2: it in a lab and can we do experiment to

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Speaker 2: prove it. She was like, yeah, well it's a bit expensive,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, I think it's a cool idea that's cue

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Speaker 2: to try. So it was literally us two post dogs.

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Speaker 2: So we ordered a bunch of honey queens and we

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Speaker 2: carried out the experiment and it was it was very exciting.

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Speaker 2: It literally have to say, I mean I could not

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Speaker 2: sleep the night before and then we carried out the

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Speaker 2: experiments and it was exactly as we predicted, so intelligent

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Speaker 2: in verse exactly a protein what takes the pieces of

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Speaker 2: bacteris the next generation. I mean, I think that has

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Speaker 2: been one of the most happiest moments of my life.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I could not sleep entire night. I was

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Speaker 2: keeping the smile on my face. Oh my god, Yes,

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Speaker 2: we did it. We did it.

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Speaker 3: We did it. We did it.

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Speaker 1: So from there, how do you get to the idea

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Speaker 1: of making a vaccine?

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Speaker 2: Good question? I think first we've really focused only on

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Speaker 2: the science and basic research and fundamental results of it,

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Speaker 2: what it means for a science, and it's a preak

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Speaker 2: crough understanding how immunity works in invertebrates and in insects.

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Speaker 3: And.

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Speaker 2: And somebody kind of told us, hey, you know, could

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Speaker 2: you use it also in industrial level? So it's kind

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Speaker 2: of like a vaccine, right, And we said, yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: kind of like a vaccine. And when somebody laughed, oh,

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Speaker 2: you should, you know, take it, take it further, and

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Speaker 2: we were like, oh, yeah, we should take it further.

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Speaker 2: And we got in contact with Innovation Services in Helsing

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Speaker 2: University and we pitched our idea to them. And their

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Speaker 2: first question, of course results, is it already published? Can

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Speaker 2: we patent it? And we said no, no, no, it's not

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Speaker 2: published yet. We are preparing publication and we never even

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Speaker 2: thought about patenting it at that moment. And they said, okay,

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Speaker 2: we should patent it, and we would like to take

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Speaker 2: this project further and see if we can make a

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Speaker 2: real world product and the company out of it. And

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Speaker 2: I think from that moment on, I was totally set

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Speaker 2: in it and I was thinking, yes, I want to

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Speaker 2: make it a real world product.

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Speaker 1: What kind of responses were you getting when you were

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Speaker 1: pitching your ideas.

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Speaker 2: I think people looked at with a mixture of all,

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Speaker 2: that's really cool idea and like, huh. I still have

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Speaker 2: everywhere and I know it's gonna be a podcast. But

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Speaker 2: whereas this queen cage, I always have it with me.

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Speaker 2: I still have it obvious with me as we're.

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Speaker 1: Literally holding it up when you just carry it around.

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Speaker 2: With you, Yes, I do, and have it on my

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Speaker 2: table and my work office, in my home office, in

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Speaker 2: all my bags then I travel, so I would say, no,

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Speaker 2: it's not injection, it's oral vaccine. You see, this is

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Speaker 2: where Queen Bee's held, and this is where vaccine will be.

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Speaker 1: And just to be clear, you're holding up a little

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Speaker 1: sort of transparent plastic case, maybe a little bigger than

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Speaker 1: a pack of gum, about the size of a pack

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Speaker 1: of gums, say, with little airholes presumably, so you put

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Speaker 1: the Queen Bee in there and the holes are so

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Speaker 1: the queen can breathe exactly.

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Speaker 2: That's what I've been pitching for past uh a few years,

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Speaker 2: and Annette was one of the people I pitched it

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Speaker 2: to and I convinced her.

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Speaker 1: Annette is Annetta Claiser, the person who wound up being

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Speaker 1: Dhaliel's co founder at Dalon Animal Health. In fact, Dalan

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Speaker 1: is for dahali Al and Annetta dal On. We'll be

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Speaker 1: back in a minute to talk with Annetta about how

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Speaker 1: she and dhali all turned Dhaliel's basic research into a

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Speaker 1: vaccine that has now been used on millions of beats.

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Speaker 3: My name is Aneticizer and I'm the CEO of DNA

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Speaker 3: Animal Health.

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Speaker 1: How did you get into the bee vaccine business?

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Speaker 3: By complete accident? It was a complete accident. I was

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Speaker 3: at the University of Helsinki in twenty eighteen to visit

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Speaker 3: DA Frighttack happened to be in the office while I

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Speaker 3: was visiting, and the director called her in and said,

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Speaker 3: you have to meet these folks and tell them about

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Speaker 3: your b vaccine. And so she presented to us. She

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Speaker 3: came into the room and I was just amazed. I

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Speaker 3: was just say, we all know bees are dying we

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Speaker 3: all know they're essential for our survival around the world.

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Speaker 3: It's a big issue, and we all throw our hands

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Speaker 3: up and here is somebody that has an idea, yet

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Speaker 3: very early stage, but still you know it was it

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Speaker 3: was an idea that that we had to take. And

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Speaker 3: so we got together and we talked, and a few

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Speaker 3: months later we decided to start a company and give

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Speaker 3: it a try.

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Speaker 1: So you had been working in technology transfer for years

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Speaker 1: at this point, right, and sort of essentially helping universities

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Speaker 1: turn scientific ideas into companies. You had never jumped ship before.

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Speaker 1: You had never seen an idea that made you say,

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Speaker 1: holy cow, I'm gonna quit my job and go all

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Speaker 1: in on this one idea. Why this one?

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Speaker 3: Because it was so different and so urgent and so important.

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Speaker 3: It was not an incremental improvement over existing technologies. This

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Speaker 3: was fundamental. This was a game change. I mean, we

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Speaker 3: all talk about game changes in innovation, but here there

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Speaker 3: was a true game change. And yeah, you're right. I've

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Speaker 3: been doing this job of looking at innovations for fifteen

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Speaker 3: or twenty years and people often said, well, one day

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Speaker 3: you're going to see this one thing, you know, And

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Speaker 3: I love my job. I get to see different things

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Speaker 3: all the time, and it's fantastic, all this innovation, all

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Speaker 3: these amazing ideas, and I get to be part of

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Speaker 3: all of them. But this couldn't wait, and it's it

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Speaker 3: just grabbed me. It grabbed me, and it was clear

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Speaker 3: from the moment I saw that I had to do it.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about let's talk about the b industry for

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Speaker 1: a moment. Let's just do that. I know almonds are

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Speaker 1: a big deal, but I want to even start zoomed

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Speaker 1: out a little bit more. So. There was this moment

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Speaker 1: some years ago when everybody was talking about colony collapse

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Speaker 1: and there was a certainly alarming, I don't know whether

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Speaker 1: it was alarmist kind of discourse about oh my god,

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Speaker 1: bees are gonna go away, and then we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: screwed because we won't be able to grow food anymore. Plainly,

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Speaker 1: that didn't happen, right, Like what First of all, what

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Speaker 1: was the deal with that? And what happened?

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Speaker 3: So we lose about on average forty to sixty percent

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Speaker 3: of hives every year, and.

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Speaker 1: It's it's has proved sustainable just because people are able

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Speaker 1: to create new colonies constantly.

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Speaker 3: However, it gets more and more expensive Okay, the labor costs,

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Speaker 3: the restoring the colonies just it's it's pushing, it's really

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Speaker 3: putting a strain on beekeepers.

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Speaker 1: Okay, the worst case scenario did not come to pass,

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Speaker 1: but we're still losing lots of colonies every year, far

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Speaker 1: more than the historical more. That's the state of play now.

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Speaker 1: On the sort of be pollination industry side, on the demand, like,

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Speaker 1: what is the market for honeybees? Who is who is

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Speaker 1: paying beekeepers to bring their hives to the fields every year?

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Speaker 1: What's that market look like in the in the US,

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Speaker 1: in North America.

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Speaker 3: Well, eighty percent of the world almonds come from California.

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Speaker 3: So in almonds are just a whether it's through almond

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Speaker 3: milk or in Massaban.

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Speaker 1: From my point of view, kind of a niche youth

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Speaker 1: but go crazy, yes.

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Speaker 3: But apparently almonds, you know, used around the world, and

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Speaker 3: they don't grow without Without honeypots, there would not be

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Speaker 3: a single almond. So California brings in on large semi

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Speaker 3: trucks several million hives every year from across the country

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Speaker 3: to pollinate for six weeks. They're put into the almond

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Speaker 3: orchards and do their thing, and so you have it

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Speaker 3: is like it's like a big you know, airport, like

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Speaker 3: where many you know, bees mingle and mix and they

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Speaker 3: you know, they spread diseases and they and they spread diseases,

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Speaker 3: you know, not among themselves, but also to other insects.

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Speaker 3: After the islands, they then go to Washington's for the apples,

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Speaker 3: then to the pumpkins, and over to Maine for the blueberries.

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Speaker 3: They go off and on the semi trucks and are

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Speaker 3: shipped across during the pollination season until they end up

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Speaker 3: in the center of the country or in the you know,

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Speaker 3: like the Midwest, where they then start honey production. Interesting,

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Speaker 3: so once the pollination season is over, the honey production starts,

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Speaker 3: and that's the food industry.

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Speaker 1: And so it's the same colony like traveling around the country,

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Speaker 1: presumably multiple generations of bees the same colony. And as

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Speaker 1: it's sort of an endless loop, it's like a traveling

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Speaker 1: it's like being on the road like rock stars or

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Speaker 1: a circus.

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Speaker 3: Or something that's exactly right. So it gets kicked off.

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Speaker 3: The season gets kicked off in February in California with

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Speaker 3: the almonds, and then they just travel around and it

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Speaker 3: ends in October when they're ready for their winter hibernation

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Speaker 3: and get this stay either go into cold storage where

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Speaker 3: it's big warehouses, and then all starts over again.

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Speaker 1: Go back back to California for the almonds. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: that is the context as far as bees go or

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Speaker 1: bees in the United States's let's go back to you

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Speaker 1: and dhali all starting the company. You meet her, You

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Speaker 1: guys decide to turn this basic research she's done into

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Speaker 1: a company into a real thing. Like what's the state

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Speaker 1: of play? What are things like when you start the company?

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Speaker 3: So yeah, so her lab was closed out. She was

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Speaker 3: on her way to accept a position or had accepted

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Speaker 3: a position in Austria at the university, so there was

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Speaker 3: no lap. There was a pending patent application that the

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Speaker 3: university had filed, and that was it. And I had

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Speaker 3: her brain, and.

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Speaker 1: You had her brain and a pending patent. That was the.

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Speaker 3: Company exactly right. And so we petitioned the university to

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Speaker 3: give us to licensees the technology so that we could

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Speaker 3: find found a company around it and also start raising

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Speaker 3: money to finance this endeavor. And then we had to

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Speaker 3: develop a regulatory path for getting something like this approved. Now,

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Speaker 3: if this was a chicken vaccine or a human vaccine

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Speaker 3: or a dog vaccine. We would know what the regulatory

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Speaker 3: path would be, we'd know how many animals we'd need,

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Speaker 3: we'd know how to manufacture it. We know everything has

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Speaker 3: been done before one.

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Speaker 1: Hundred and fifty years, right, like Pasteur made a chicken

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Speaker 1: vaccine and a dog vaccine before he made a human vaccine.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so he and none of this existed. There was

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Speaker 3: no regulatory framework.

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Speaker 1: Nobody ever made a vaccine for an insect.

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Speaker 3: Before it had ever done this before.

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Speaker 1: So tell me about the disease that you want to

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Speaker 1: vaccinate against.

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Speaker 3: It's called American fowl root.

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Speaker 1: An fowl brood.

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Speaker 3: Our root, and contrary to its name, it actually exists

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Speaker 3: in every country around the world, and it is very contagious.

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Speaker 3: It's like anthrax for bees. So a few spores in

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Speaker 3: a hive are sufficient to wipe out your colony. Highly contagious,

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Speaker 3: and if you do contract the disease, you have to

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Speaker 3: pour gasoline over the colony and burn the hive, the colony,

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Speaker 3: all your equipment, everything that came in touch with it,

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Speaker 3: and buried under the ground.

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Speaker 1: So it's like biblical that's like a biblical injunction, or

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Speaker 1: is what all of the bees die.

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Speaker 3: Basically everything dies and you e suit your equipment because

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Speaker 3: everything that came in touch with this contaminated hive is

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Speaker 3: now can pass on the disease to another hive. So

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Speaker 3: it's and then and in some countries all the hives

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Speaker 3: that were in a two mile radius have to be quarantined,

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Speaker 3: so moving restrictions. You can't you know, you can't do

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Speaker 3: anything with them anymore. So it affects your neighbor. It's

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Speaker 3: also very costly. You know, the flowers don't wait if

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Speaker 3: you need to make honey, if you need to pollinate,

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Speaker 3: and the disease hits your neighbor and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 3: you can't put your hives into the almonds or the pumpkins.

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Speaker 3: You lose half of your annual income. And so it's

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Speaker 3: just a really devastating disease. And DAYA had convincing data

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Speaker 3: on it, so we said, okay, let's go after American

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Speaker 3: fower root and see if we can tackle this as

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Speaker 3: our first trial vaccine. And so we generated new data.

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Speaker 3: We had our elite candidate for the vaccine, and we

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Speaker 3: set up a meeting with the USDA to make our case,

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Speaker 3: which was the first step that this is a vaccine

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Speaker 3: and not something else, and that what we're doing is

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Speaker 3: actually giving in a controlled way this dead pathogen and

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Speaker 3: it activates the immune system and the animals are protected.

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Speaker 1: Presumably when you're going to the USDA, the number of

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Speaker 1: people who knows how to do is be vaccine trial

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Speaker 1: is zero. Nobody's ever done it, always ever thought about

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Speaker 1: it before as far as I know. So, like, you've

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Speaker 1: got to actually make the vaccine right, So what is that?

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Speaker 3: So you take your pathogen, okay, and you grow it

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Speaker 3: up because it's a bacteria, it grows.

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Speaker 1: In case this is the terrible American foul brood. You're

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Speaker 1: growing American foul brood in the lab, no.

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Speaker 3: Lamb, and then you you inactivate it. Okay, you kill

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Speaker 3: it so it's dead, dead, and you make sure it's

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Speaker 3: absolutely there's nothing in there that survived.

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Speaker 1: Now you have the vaccine and you need to test it, right.

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Speaker 1: You need to essentially do a clinical trial. But it's

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Speaker 1: a clinical trial of bees to see if the vaccine

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Speaker 1: works on them. And my understanding is you have to

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Speaker 1: start by vaccinating the queen bee. And I'm curious just

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Speaker 1: how that happens.

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Speaker 3: How do you do that their queen produces queen breeders

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Speaker 3: that make a queen, and then they the queen mates

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Speaker 3: flies around in her amazing flight. Then they catch her

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Speaker 3: and put her into little claps plastic cages. They're called

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Speaker 3: queen cages, and with a few nurse bees. These are

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Speaker 3: young bees they have just hatched, and those bees feed

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Speaker 3: royal jelly to the queen.

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Speaker 1: They're called nurse bes.

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Speaker 3: And these nurse bees are in the cage with her,

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Speaker 3: and in the cages of sugar paste, which is made

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Speaker 3: of powdered sugar and corn syrup or powdered sugar and water,

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Speaker 3: so different, but it's a it's a sugar paste. And

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Speaker 3: we put our vaccine, which is a liquid formulation, into

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Speaker 3: this sugar paste, and the nurse bees will eat it

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Speaker 3: make royal jelly out of and the royal jelly now

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Speaker 3: has pieces of the vaccine, and that's what they feed, Okay,

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Speaker 3: because the queen doesn't like to eat herself.

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Speaker 1: She needs to be fun, amazing like like a true queen.

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Speaker 1: So so you give the vaccine plus sugar paste to

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Speaker 1: those nurse bees. They eat it. They make royal jelly

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Speaker 1: with vaccine in it for the queen. Then the queen

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Speaker 1: eats that royal jelly, and then what happens.

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Speaker 3: So we have like fifty queens sitting there. Some of

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Speaker 3: them get vaccinated, others get not vaccinated. Research it doesn't

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Speaker 3: know which.

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Speaker 1: One randomize a good randomized blinded trial.

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Speaker 3: We put them now out into real hives.

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Speaker 1: Okay, out in the world. Out they're going to work.

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Speaker 3: They go out into the world, and then we wait

402
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Speaker 3: and the queen will emerge out of this little cage

403
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Speaker 3: and the hive. If the hive accepts her, she will

404
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Speaker 3: start laying eggs. And after a few weeks we will

405
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Speaker 3: go into the hive and take frames where the queen

406
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Speaker 3: has laid the eggs and bring them back to the

407
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Speaker 3: lab and will take one day old larby the researchers

408
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Speaker 3: always tell me, you know when they're one day all

409
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Speaker 3: when you barely can see them or not all. Okay,

410
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Speaker 3: tiny tiny larvae, And these brood diseases like American firebroot,

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Speaker 3: they only hit the larbe in the first three days

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Speaker 3: once you make it, like infant diseases, so you can

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Speaker 3: only get sink when you're a little child, but not later.

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Speaker 3: And that's the same here. So we need to get

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Speaker 3: these one day old larvae. They put them in a

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Speaker 3: little pittri diish, feed them with larval food, and bombard

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Speaker 3: them with disease.

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Speaker 1: So what do you find. So you have your control

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Speaker 1: group and you have your vaccinated group. They're getting bombarded

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Speaker 1: with foul brood. What happens?

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Speaker 3: And we had between thirty to fifty percent higher survival

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Speaker 3: in the lab. And so based on that, and based

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Speaker 3: on all the aspect of vaccine development, of purity and

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Speaker 3: safety and all of this, the regulator said, okay, we're

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Speaker 3: going to give you the market approval and the uscilization

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Speaker 3: to sell on a conditional basis. So we started selling.

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Speaker 3: We shipped the first vaccine in May of last year to.

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Speaker 1: May of twenty three and how's it going. How's it

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Speaker 1: going now?

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Speaker 3: It's going well, it's going well. It's It was interesting

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Speaker 3: because we didn't do any advertising, We didn't do any

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Speaker 3: promotion around it because we felt it was such a

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Speaker 3: new tool and we were such a small company that

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Speaker 3: we wanted to really work on the ground WI speekeepers

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00:27:05,156 --> 00:27:09,076
Speaker 3: to introduce this new product to see how does it

436
00:27:09,236 --> 00:27:11,956
Speaker 3: integrate into their operations.

437
00:27:11,636 --> 00:27:15,236
Speaker 1: Like where are you now? How many how much vaccine

438
00:27:15,236 --> 00:27:17,316
Speaker 1: are you selling? How many bees are getting vaccinated?

439
00:27:17,516 --> 00:27:23,756
Speaker 3: I think they are probably twenty to twenty five thousand

440
00:27:23,916 --> 00:27:26,796
Speaker 3: hives colonies vaccinated.

441
00:27:26,316 --> 00:27:28,396
Speaker 1: Out and you sell in the US and Canada, Is

442
00:27:28,436 --> 00:27:28,796
Speaker 1: that right?

443
00:27:29,116 --> 00:27:30,436
Speaker 3: Yes? In Canada.

444
00:27:30,516 --> 00:27:33,076
Speaker 1: So you you found in the lab in these sort

445
00:27:33,076 --> 00:27:37,196
Speaker 1: of very harsh, intense lab conditions that the vaccine reduced

446
00:27:37,556 --> 00:27:40,516
Speaker 1: infection by thirty to fifty percent. Do you have an

447
00:27:40,636 --> 00:27:43,156
Speaker 1: estimate of its efficacy in the field.

448
00:27:44,076 --> 00:27:48,956
Speaker 3: Well, so far none of the colonies out there have

449
00:27:49,316 --> 00:27:54,236
Speaker 3: tested or tested positive or have shown American fibers.

450
00:27:54,316 --> 00:27:56,636
Speaker 1: And you have tens of thousands of colonies have been

451
00:27:56,716 --> 00:27:58,716
Speaker 1: vaccinated and the number that have been found to have

452
00:27:58,716 --> 00:28:01,636
Speaker 1: American fabrit is zero, So that seems good.

453
00:28:02,156 --> 00:28:02,396
Speaker 3: Yes.

454
00:28:03,076 --> 00:28:06,636
Speaker 1: Do you have a next animal that you want to

455
00:28:06,676 --> 00:28:08,436
Speaker 1: try and vaccinate after bees?

456
00:28:09,316 --> 00:28:09,676
Speaker 3: Shrimp?

457
00:28:09,836 --> 00:28:13,316
Speaker 1: Shrimp? Is that because shrimp are farmed for food? Is

458
00:28:13,356 --> 00:28:15,196
Speaker 1: that the setting where you would vaccinate shrimp?

459
00:28:16,076 --> 00:28:17,956
Speaker 3: Yes, it's food security.

460
00:28:18,116 --> 00:28:21,796
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so is there a particular shrimp pathogen that

461
00:28:21,876 --> 00:28:22,556
Speaker 1: you're working on.

462
00:28:23,756 --> 00:28:28,116
Speaker 3: It's it's white spots syndrome, it's a virus and rabiosis,

463
00:28:28,236 --> 00:28:29,996
Speaker 3: which is a bacteria.

464
00:28:29,556 --> 00:28:31,076
Speaker 1: Like more or less. When do you think you'll apply

465
00:28:31,196 --> 00:28:32,956
Speaker 1: for approval for shrimp?

466
00:28:34,316 --> 00:28:37,516
Speaker 3: Probably in if we're lucky, in if we're lucky in

467
00:28:37,516 --> 00:28:42,036
Speaker 3: two US three years. So because we have shown that

468
00:28:42,276 --> 00:28:46,996
Speaker 3: we can vaccinate and protect a wild animal from viruses,

469
00:28:47,076 --> 00:28:52,196
Speaker 3: from deadly viruses. We've shown that we can protect a

470
00:28:55,236 --> 00:29:00,076
Speaker 3: honeybee from bacterial diseases and from fungal diseases. So we

471
00:29:00,156 --> 00:29:04,516
Speaker 3: can show that this is possible in insects by activating

472
00:29:04,756 --> 00:29:09,276
Speaker 3: the innate immune system. We believe and we know that

473
00:29:09,356 --> 00:29:14,916
Speaker 3: this immune system is conserved across invertebrates. We believe we

474
00:29:14,996 --> 00:29:20,356
Speaker 3: can use that same approach for shrimp, for mosquitoes, for

475
00:29:20,556 --> 00:29:26,796
Speaker 3: our kind of animals that currently have that we rely

476
00:29:26,996 --> 00:29:33,796
Speaker 3: on shrimp and bees that are extremely important for our

477
00:29:33,876 --> 00:29:40,316
Speaker 3: food security and have no non chemical sustainable ways to

478
00:29:40,436 --> 00:29:45,836
Speaker 3: protect them. And then beyond that, take it into areas

479
00:29:46,156 --> 00:29:50,476
Speaker 3: that for these infectious vector based infectious diseases that have

480
00:29:50,596 --> 00:29:53,916
Speaker 3: a huge impact on human health. But we also don't

481
00:29:53,956 --> 00:29:56,636
Speaker 3: have anything. So it's really estalin. We want to open

482
00:29:56,716 --> 00:30:01,876
Speaker 3: up this entire space and really harnessing the power of

483
00:30:01,916 --> 00:30:04,236
Speaker 3: this immune system that is completely neglected.

484
00:30:04,356 --> 00:30:06,836
Speaker 1: Are you talking about mosquitos, because the notion is you

485
00:30:06,876 --> 00:30:11,036
Speaker 1: could vaccinate mosquitoes against the pathogen that causes malaria. Is

486
00:30:11,036 --> 00:30:18,356
Speaker 1: that the idea there that's the idea any mosquito transmitted disease,

487
00:30:18,436 --> 00:30:21,076
Speaker 1: if you could vaccinate the mosquitos, they wouldn't transmit the disease.

488
00:30:21,396 --> 00:30:22,996
Speaker 1: So are you working on that one?

489
00:30:24,276 --> 00:30:26,636
Speaker 3: That would be my next one. We're not working on

490
00:30:26,716 --> 00:30:27,116
Speaker 3: it yet.

491
00:30:29,396 --> 00:30:43,556
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute with the lightning ground. Okay,

492
00:30:43,636 --> 00:30:46,956
Speaker 1: let's do the lightning round. What was the best idea

493
00:30:47,236 --> 00:30:49,236
Speaker 1: you ever saw before you met Dahlia?

494
00:30:50,276 --> 00:30:58,196
Speaker 3: It was a refrigerator, a freezer where you could freeze

495
00:30:58,476 --> 00:31:01,556
Speaker 3: fruit without becoming a mushy.

496
00:31:03,836 --> 00:31:05,076
Speaker 1: Whatever happened to that idea?

497
00:31:06,076 --> 00:31:10,036
Speaker 3: I have no idea, so as.

498
00:31:09,876 --> 00:31:12,076
Speaker 1: I understand it. You grew up in a wine growing

499
00:31:12,236 --> 00:31:15,236
Speaker 1: region in Germany and you're into wine, and so what

500
00:31:15,276 --> 00:31:17,916
Speaker 1: I always want to know is what's a good cheap

501
00:31:17,996 --> 00:31:19,556
Speaker 1: bottle of wine that I can buy?

502
00:31:19,996 --> 00:31:25,596
Speaker 3: Ooh, I mean, I'm I'm partial to actually Spanish wines.

503
00:31:26,716 --> 00:31:29,596
Speaker 1: Like a rioja, Like what should I buy?

504
00:31:30,916 --> 00:31:34,796
Speaker 3: Or they are just amazing, amazing wines.

505
00:31:35,596 --> 00:31:38,436
Speaker 1: What's one surprising thing you've learned about bees since you

506
00:31:38,476 --> 00:31:39,876
Speaker 1: started the company?

507
00:31:42,076 --> 00:31:46,596
Speaker 3: Seeing well, the TransGeneration immune priming is pretty.

508
00:31:46,316 --> 00:31:48,996
Speaker 1: Well, that's the big one. That's the big one obviously,

509
00:31:49,916 --> 00:31:52,636
Speaker 1: But are there any other just like weird be facts

510
00:31:52,716 --> 00:31:54,716
Speaker 1: that you know now that you didn't know before.

511
00:31:55,676 --> 00:32:01,516
Speaker 3: I think understanding or looking at the super organism how

512
00:32:02,556 --> 00:32:03,556
Speaker 3: it works together.

513
00:32:03,876 --> 00:32:07,316
Speaker 1: Superorganism is this idea that the colony, the entire colony,

514
00:32:07,436 --> 00:32:08,996
Speaker 1: is sort of like an animal.

515
00:32:10,076 --> 00:32:16,316
Speaker 3: Like one animal. Yeah, the individual cannot survive on its own.

516
00:32:17,436 --> 00:32:24,756
Speaker 3: It needs everybody in the society of these to make it,

517
00:32:25,996 --> 00:32:31,116
Speaker 3: to share information, to keep each other warm, to feed

518
00:32:31,156 --> 00:32:34,636
Speaker 3: each other, all of that, And that's just amazing to

519
00:32:34,676 --> 00:32:37,396
Speaker 3: see every single every single day.

520
00:32:38,236 --> 00:32:41,196
Speaker 1: Another cliser is the CEO of Dolla and Animal Health.

521
00:32:41,916 --> 00:32:44,516
Speaker 1: I also did a lightning round with her co founder,

522
00:32:44,556 --> 00:32:48,716
Speaker 1: the company's chief scientific officer, Dali al fright tag. Here's

523
00:32:48,756 --> 00:32:50,716
Speaker 1: that part of the interview. Now to close the show,

524
00:32:53,276 --> 00:32:54,876
Speaker 1: what's your second favorite insect?

525
00:32:56,236 --> 00:33:00,756
Speaker 2: And different ants? I cannot pinpoint one species of ant,

526
00:33:01,036 --> 00:33:03,596
Speaker 2: but yeah, why why ants?

527
00:33:03,756 --> 00:33:05,036
Speaker 1: What's fascinating about them?

528
00:33:05,276 --> 00:33:08,516
Speaker 2: They have so many different adaptations, you name it, they

529
00:33:08,596 --> 00:33:12,316
Speaker 2: have it. They can wage wars at each other. They

530
00:33:12,316 --> 00:33:16,956
Speaker 2: can count the size of the opposite army. Literally, they

531
00:33:17,036 --> 00:33:19,876
Speaker 2: know if the opposite side is too beak, they need

532
00:33:19,916 --> 00:33:22,676
Speaker 2: to run away. If it's smaller, and they they will

533
00:33:22,756 --> 00:33:27,636
Speaker 2: engage in the battle. They build structures, they build houses,

534
00:33:27,796 --> 00:33:34,116
Speaker 2: they have farming. They are fascinating, absolutely fascinating organism group.

535
00:33:34,916 --> 00:33:36,956
Speaker 1: What should I do to reduce the risk of getting

536
00:33:36,996 --> 00:33:37,756
Speaker 1: stung by bee?

537
00:33:39,796 --> 00:33:41,236
Speaker 2: Don't go close to beehives?

538
00:33:42,436 --> 00:33:42,956
Speaker 1: Fair enough?

539
00:33:43,876 --> 00:33:46,436
Speaker 2: Well, Also, the other thing, what I would recommend if

540
00:33:46,476 --> 00:33:48,676
Speaker 2: you have a bee close to you, do not panic,

541
00:33:49,036 --> 00:33:52,516
Speaker 2: do not start waving around. So keep your calm and

542
00:33:52,676 --> 00:33:53,716
Speaker 2: bees appreciated.

543
00:33:54,356 --> 00:33:56,836
Speaker 1: What's one thing most people get wrong about bees?

544
00:33:57,716 --> 00:34:00,556
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people believe that the honeybee

545
00:34:00,636 --> 00:34:04,316
Speaker 2: queen is the one who rules the colony. I kind

546
00:34:04,316 --> 00:34:07,156
Speaker 2: of strongly disagree with that. I think it's the workers

547
00:34:07,196 --> 00:34:10,196
Speaker 2: who are ruling the high because as soon as queen

548
00:34:10,316 --> 00:34:15,516
Speaker 2: is not performing balling off anymore, she's gonna be removed

549
00:34:15,796 --> 00:34:18,596
Speaker 2: and the new queen will be raised. So it's really

550
00:34:18,716 --> 00:34:21,836
Speaker 2: all for a hive, all for the common good, and

551
00:34:22,196 --> 00:34:25,116
Speaker 2: it's not so much about her, it's about the hive.

552
00:34:26,956 --> 00:34:30,836
Speaker 1: So is a b colony a socialist paradise?

553
00:34:33,236 --> 00:34:37,996
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess you could say that. It's definitely. I

554
00:34:38,036 --> 00:34:40,996
Speaker 2: would not say it's a monarchy. Ooh, it sounds like that.

555
00:34:42,116 --> 00:34:42,756
Speaker 2: I don't think.

556
00:34:42,796 --> 00:34:47,636
Speaker 1: So the queen is working for the workers, yep.

557
00:34:48,236 --> 00:34:50,796
Speaker 2: I mean she gets to leave a high once in

558
00:34:50,836 --> 00:34:54,356
Speaker 2: her life, rest of the time she spends inside and

559
00:34:54,956 --> 00:34:59,156
Speaker 2: needs to produce offspring. As soon as she fails, she

560
00:34:59,236 --> 00:35:00,236
Speaker 2: will be replaced.

561
00:35:01,916 --> 00:35:04,516
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's got one job.

562
00:35:04,756 --> 00:35:05,716
Speaker 2: She's got one job.

563
00:35:09,876 --> 00:35:13,276
Speaker 1: Today's show was produced by Gabriel Hunter Chang. It was

564
00:35:13,396 --> 00:35:16,836
Speaker 1: edited by Lyddy Jean Kott and engineered by Sarah Bruguier.

565
00:35:17,316 --> 00:35:20,556
Speaker 1: You can email us at problem at Pushkin dot FM.

566
00:35:21,036 --> 00:35:23,356
Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein and we'll be back next week with

567
00:35:23,436 --> 00:35:37,836
Speaker 1: another episode of What's Your Problem.