1 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: one never told you Protectually I heart radio, And today 3 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:23,639 Speaker 1: we are continuing our streak of looking into technologies and 4 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: women and non binary folks, and we're continuing it with 5 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: virtual reality are Yes or VR, which I know UM 6 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: might have some of you rolling your eyes, especially with 7 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:39,480 Speaker 1: a lot of the news that's going around right now. 8 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 1: We're not specifically going to be talking about the metaverse 9 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: today that we should, UM, because they recently saw a 10 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: headline I believe they lost seven hundred billion dollars investing 11 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: into the metaverse and they fired a lot of their 12 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: staff to invest in this, which is something we're seeing 13 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: with Twitter, which is also something we're gonna come back 14 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: and talk about. So, yeah, that is the thing. We know, 15 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 1: it's a thing that we need to talk about. We're 16 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: gonna come back and talk about it. But today we're 17 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: more focusing on kind of the general landscape of women 18 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: and non binary folks in the VR world. And actually 19 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: this could have been like a multipart because there's a 20 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: really fascinating history of women innovating in this space. Uh 21 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,839 Speaker 1: and and the history of that and how it came 22 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: to be what it is today is really cool, But 23 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: we're going to touch on some of that. We're not 24 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:31,320 Speaker 1: going to focus on it though, And I do have 25 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: to say, doing this research, I feel like we're seeing 26 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: several threads emerge again and again when it comes to 27 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: how these platforms are not supporting women. Um, which is 28 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: not surprising, also not great. Obviously, I hope all the 29 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: problems we talked about with Reddit, with Twitch are not 30 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: limited to those platforms, and we're going to talk about 31 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: how they manifest in VR two. But part of why 32 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: we wanted to talk about this was we're quest of 33 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: a listener saying that in their experience b R wasn't 34 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 1: as sexist as other platforms. And this was over a 35 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: year ago at least, but I got really curious about it. Uh, 36 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: And so here we are. We are right. I remember 37 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: that because they suggest some great games that I never played, 38 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: that you played them? No, And actually I want to 39 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: talk about this for a second, because you and I 40 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: have I would say similar experiences with bruvolve this fallowing. 41 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: So if you're talking about yes only one time for me, 42 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: excuse how do you but it was a pretty big 43 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: ball of us. Yes, yes, so you you actually were 44 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: the one who introduced me to b R. I had 45 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: used it previously in like high school, a very bad graphic, 46 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: like those really old sets you would use, and it 47 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,519 Speaker 1: was like a fighting game. And one of my friends 48 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: had it and I used it, and it was one 49 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 1: of those things where you could like barely tell what 50 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: was going on, had fun, but it was also such 51 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: a difficult You couldn't tell what was going on right, 52 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: so it was very difficult. And then you during the 53 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:21,839 Speaker 1: pandemic kind of introduced me to it um in its 54 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: newer iteration where the graphics are much better, there's a 55 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: lot more games available, and I it was one of 56 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 1: those things where I waffled on it for a long time, 57 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 1: but eventually I bought my own kind of on a whim. 58 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: But I had been thinking about it. It was one 59 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: of those surprise purchases for you. It was because it 60 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: and then showed up, and then it showed up and 61 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: then it showed up. But I have been thinking like 62 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: it was one of those things where it was going 63 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: to inevitably happen, and I kept kind of being like no, no, 64 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: no no, and then eventually it was like, oh, yeah, 65 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: I'll get it, and then I totally forgot and then 66 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: it showed up. I was like, yeah, but related to 67 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: all of this, I have a lot of games I 68 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: want to play and I have not played. My apartment 69 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: is not the best for playing VR, to be honest, 70 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: it's not right the most spacious, and I don't generally 71 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: get nauseated, which we are going to talk about, but 72 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: I sometimes do. So it's kind of like a commitment 73 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: or I have to like move like my table all 74 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 1: the way. It sounds so like easily done, but it 75 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: is like I have to do this and I have 76 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: to do this play. Um, but yeah, what about you? 77 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 1: What about your experience with that? Well? Yeah, so honestly, 78 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 1: I was introduced and the VR set that is in 79 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: my house is my partners. Um. He loves the VR 80 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: set to the point that we still play with it. 81 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: He does it more than I do. Um. He even 82 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: talked another person who was actually a boomer, like we'll 83 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: talk and got him into it as well, like to 84 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: the point that he showed him an example, let him 85 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: play with it for a second, and then he immediately 86 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: bought it because it was everything he wanted. Like he 87 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: talked about how he wanted to be a pilot and 88 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 1: wanted to test flow. This was an amazing stimulation to it, 89 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 1: and it is. It's it's definitely upgraded since the time 90 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: that you were talking about. I know there's a lot 91 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 1: more of like VR bars popping up in the sensation 92 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 1: of this, and now more games that you can play 93 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: together online. Again, my partner uses it to play their 94 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 1: version video is I don't even know what it's called. 95 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie, which is like a version of 96 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons, but VR brand, I don't know that, 97 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 1: a verse brand maybe I don't know. But he plays 98 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: with his siblings and they play Katon on it, and 99 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: it looks like they're right there talking to each other. 100 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: So it's really interesting to see like all of that. Yes, 101 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: the graphics have gotten better. I am one of those 102 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: and we'll talk about it in a bit. Who gets 103 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 1: very sick very quickly with these games because of the 104 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: generous the quick motion, the rapid eye movement that I 105 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: cannot keep up with. I also have really bad stigmatism, 106 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: so I have my contacts which if it's not set correctly, 107 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: everything's ghost blurry no matter what. And my contacts are 108 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: not wonderful and I can't play with my glasses because 109 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 1: it's too thick and big. I just have all kinds 110 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: of nerd problems. Um. But yeah, but I really did 111 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: enjoy the ones that I really liked. It was really nicely. 112 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: The scenery is beautiful. There's coloring one that I love. 113 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: There's a fishing game that I'm like, I don't even 114 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: like fishing, but this is really fun. Um there is 115 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: I love beat Saber. I love that when I can 116 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: get into it, I can get into it. And y'all 117 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: have worked up a sweat with that game. I mentioned 118 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 1: a shooter game where it was like a piloting game 119 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: and it was fairly new, to the point that one 120 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: of our listeners knew one of the creators and gave 121 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: them a shout out. Was like, hey stuff mom. They 122 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: were told you just talking about your game, and I 123 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: was like, what, that's awesome. So I love seeing all 124 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: of that. Yeah, and I think I'm kind of really 125 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 1: weary because I want to know, and we're gonna talk 126 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: about I know, like how many developers are getting there? 127 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: Do who are in from the marginalized communities? Because this 128 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: is a new technology that can be really big. That's 129 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: kind of big. Maybe haven't gone about it the right way. Yeah, 130 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: it could be big, yeah, yeah, And it has a 131 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: lot of applications that I don't think people realize and 132 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: if you, if you haven't, I don't know, used a 133 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: VR set recently, Like like Samantha was saying, there's so 134 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: many different types of games and some of them are 135 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: so beautiful and relaxing and peaceful, Like there's a lot 136 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: to offer in this VR world. And I bought it, 137 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: I think the first summer of the pandemic. I I 138 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: bought it to the beach with my friends and I 139 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: would just catch them like hanging out and I don't know, 140 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: like coloring or just sitting in space or whatever it was, 141 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: and it was kind of something that helped them calm 142 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: or relax, which is not something I would have thought 143 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: of until I had seen it. I will say that 144 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: one of the things that I am kind of way 145 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: of and I've only done once or twice because my 146 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: partner he gets when he gets caught up, he gets 147 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: caught up. And like all immersive and one of the 148 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,119 Speaker 1: big features is having like rooms where you can visit 149 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: different people and talk to different people, you can watch 150 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: movies together. They're like you there's a certain amount of room, 151 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: you can do a fireside chat, like all of these things. 152 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: You can create your own universe as in fact, like 153 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: he took me to one, which was super cool. This 154 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: creator made his own universe, and then like he has 155 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: special things where you could do a Patreon for him 156 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,959 Speaker 1: to pay him. Outside of that, the entire setup was free. 157 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: So it's interesting to see all that. But as a 158 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: woman going in, it felt really odd. And the minute 159 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: they figure out you are what gender you are, or 160 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:48,839 Speaker 1: they think they know what gender you are, it kind 161 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: of flips. The conversation flips, and uh, it's it seems 162 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: more predatory. There doesn't seem to be. I don't know, 163 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: because each each person can have their own room, the 164 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: person who have creates that room, moderates that room. So 165 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: I think it's too generalize for me to say that 166 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 1: it's unsafe for marginal's communities, but I can see how 167 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: quickly it what could be very unsafe for marginalized communities. Um, 168 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: it's interesting though. I think it's definitely something we have 169 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: to look into because who knows how what if this 170 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: becomes the new chat room with Twitter quickly dying, or 171 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: if this becomes the new social media in the future, 172 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: as we know, as the Justice have told us, everything 173 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: will be something to that level. Right, That's all I 174 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: have to get my market about communication now is virtual reality? 175 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: Oh god, no, no, no, no, well yeah, And any 176 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: listeners who are listening to this, I would say, Samantha 177 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: and I are kind of like VR light. We've done 178 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: it UM very light, very light though, and uh, I 179 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: haven't really had much experience with the social aspect of it. 180 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 1: So listeners, if you're listening and you're like, oh, I 181 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 1: have experiences or stories to tell you, please right in. Yes, 182 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: So we're gonna do a quick rundown of history and 183 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,199 Speaker 1: some of the issues in the VR world right now. 184 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: Which yes, again we're not talking about metaverse, but they 185 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: are definitely pushing it as like a workplace. So who 186 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: knows what the history the future would be. UM. So, yes, 187 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: this is a very quick rundown um of the history 188 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: of VR. But most people trace that to nineteen sixty five, 189 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,319 Speaker 1: which is earlier than I thought it would be. UM, 190 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: And most of the founders were men, and those would 191 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: be the founders that we know of anyway, because we 192 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: know a lot of people marginalized people get erased from 193 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: the story, but women have been involved in the industry 194 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: for decades. You can take Beth Marcus, the inventor and 195 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,439 Speaker 1: founding CEO of Exos, and the person in part behind 196 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: the Dextrous Handmaster, which was a foundational and sophisticated input 197 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: device for VR. So I recommend looking up all of 198 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: this stuff. It's really cool. It wasn't necessarily designed for VR, 199 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: at least in the way we're talking about it, which 200 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: is kind of primarily a gaming system, but very very 201 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: neat um data suit, a full body suit used to 202 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 1: capture motion, was designed by an Alaska Harville. Jan Nick 203 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: Roland did substantial research on how the human visual system 204 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:27,079 Speaker 1: interacts with VR. So that's another instance where maybe you 205 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: wouldn't think of that when you're thinking of all of 206 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: the pieces it took to make VR, but of course 207 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: that makes sense, like you would need an understanding of 208 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: how the human eye works and the visual system works. 209 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:43,199 Speaker 1: Timiko Thiel, Sear Davies, Nicole Stinger, they all had parts 210 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: to play in this. I found a really good list 211 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,839 Speaker 1: of women involved in the dr movement. Unfortunately, it was 212 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: hard to find like more than like they did this 213 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: thing the end of story. But um, but I think 214 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: they could all make really interesting episodes. And these are 215 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: just a hand of names and we will have more 216 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: names later, especially people currently UM working in the field. 217 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 1: But the point is women have provided huge developments in 218 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: the technology and content of YR, not to mention creating 219 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: works to bring awareness to important social issues. So, like 220 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: we said, a lot of people you might think of, 221 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: like I don't know, shooting games when it comes to VR, 222 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: but there's so many other things that can be done 223 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 1: in that space that have been done, and some that 224 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: we have talked about before, which we're going to discuss 225 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: in a minute. Many have expressed the importance of having 226 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: women leading in this field. Um they're more aware of 227 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: women's safety concerns or could have raised their hand about 228 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: the design of the headset, which we're going to talk 229 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: about in a minute. Interestingly, at seventeen survey out of 230 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: the US found that sixty of leadership positions in VR 231 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: we're held by women, though those numbers can get Q 232 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: quite low and other countries and counting in other factors. 233 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: So it was one of those things like depending on 234 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: how you define it and what you include, that number 235 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: can change drassicly. One woman we have to talk about 236 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: in this industry is Nonni Da la Pinia, sometimes called 237 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: the Godmother of VR, who founded Imblematic, a virtual, augmented 238 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 1: and mixed reality company early on day. La Pinia recognized 239 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 1: the potential of VR for all sorts of applications, and 240 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: she was really vocal about we need to get um 241 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: women and other marginalized folks on the ground of this, 242 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: because that's what we've talked about with podcasting. When there's 243 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: like a newer technology or platform being developed, then ideally 244 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: we have a room to correct past issues we see 245 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: on other platforms. So this is one of those where 246 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: they're like, this is a newer thing, can we please 247 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:49,199 Speaker 1: learn from all these other issues on these other you 248 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,959 Speaker 1: can talk about history or things to come, like, hey, 249 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 1: this is a good time to learn from the past. 250 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: I do wonder what I see titles like godmother mother 251 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: of Like what how did it change? Wait? Was who 252 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,599 Speaker 1: have made these titles? And why is it godmother? Like 253 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:04,839 Speaker 1: did you not have a hand in it? Was it? 254 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 1: Just like I encourage you go for anyway, it's just 255 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: a random moment when random thought. So while technology has 256 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: advanced and become more affordable, especially from about twenty onward, uh, 257 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: and they're used for all kinds of things outside of gaming, 258 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: like work and education and virtual travel. Only one in 259 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: five Americans have given a VR set a try, and 260 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: it is there's a lot of like it seems so 261 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: odd when you originally think about the VR sets and 262 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: then you're like, yeah, it's silly, it's just hockey. You're 263 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: looking at a cartoon closer up, and then you realize, oh, no, 264 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: they've really done some things. And as every addition is released, 265 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: because we're I think what the version five of the 266 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: metaverse vs. VR set, it gets increasingly intricate. It is 267 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: quite a nerving almost. But even with those numbers, the 268 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: numbers for women are lower. In the UK and in 269 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: the US only women had used to be are compared 270 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: to about men um and I wonder why. I wonder 271 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: if it's just they're not asking women. Women are like, no, 272 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: I'm good. It could be it could be a little 273 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: bit of a little bit of me. We are going 274 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: to break some of that down. I do think there's 275 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: a lot of leftover for for older folks like you 276 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: would me, who do remember those really? Hey, I'm including me, 277 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,359 Speaker 1: who do you remember those kind of crappy like mall 278 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: VR sets or whatever. I think there's a lot of leftover, Like, no, 279 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: I don't like that. I don't want that kind of 280 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: reminds me of the little slides. Yeah, almost along those levels, 281 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: like that's what we thought of. Not really, but you 282 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: know that that's that oh so close and so beautiful scenery. 283 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: But it's just little steels. Things are changing. But yes, yes, yes, yes, 284 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: uh and yeah. There's also a lack of diversity in 285 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: what gets funded in the VR sector, though there have 286 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: been some really notable films made by Wind of Color 287 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: that utilized VR, including when we talked about Called Crow 288 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: the Legend by Sarah Eaglehart that was really beautiful. Um, 289 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: and they're they're actually quite a handful of them that 290 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: are are very very good. And while there are some 291 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: great women protagonists characters in the games themselves and br 292 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: that's still an area that needs a lot of improvement. 293 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: As of VR was expected to be a one hundred 294 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: and fifty billion dollar industry, and some of our fellow 295 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: podcast have had shows in the VR world, which is 296 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: something smith that I am struggling to wrap our heads around. 297 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: But they have done it so true, we don't quite 298 00:16:57,640 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: understand it. Hey, we don't know what that would look like, 299 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: as well as the fact that our parent company may 300 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: have been a part of the big buye of that 301 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: billion dollar investment. There's a lot of things things, so 302 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 1: we're trying to hear out. But you know, as I 303 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: was talking about earlier in UM, in these little chat rooms, 304 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: I like I said, I am wondering about the harassment. 305 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: And unfortunately, while there are many positives about the VR, 306 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: it is not without the same problems as we've discussed 307 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 1: in previous tech episodes UM, and the same things we 308 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 1: see offline too, Yes, obviously right now, and one of 309 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: them is harassment, which, as I had a question, which 310 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: disproportionately impacts women and people of color. Yes, so a 311 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: lot of you probably heard this story. It made a 312 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: lot of headlines UM. Recently, a woman Beta tester reported 313 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 1: being groped while interacting in a metaverse platform UM. Meta 314 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: concluded that she should have used the quote safe zone 315 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: security features. So this is like the personal boundary, UM. 316 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: If you've played v R, it's kind of this circle 317 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: that you can see UM. It's about four ft or 318 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,479 Speaker 1: one point two meters according to Meta, and if an 319 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: avatar tries to enter it the boundary should stop them. 320 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,439 Speaker 1: This is not a new or isolated incident, though. In 321 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 1: a woman shared her story of how another VR user 322 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: groped her breast and crotch, ignoring her when she told 323 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,880 Speaker 1: them to stop, and chasing her around. Um. She wrote 324 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,479 Speaker 1: an open letter about it, and here's a quote from that. 325 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: A users disembodied helmet, faced me dead on. His floating 326 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: hand approached my body and he started to virtually rub 327 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: my chest. Stop. I cried. This goaded him on, and 328 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,479 Speaker 1: even when I turned away from him, he chased me around, 329 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: making grabbing and pinching motions near my chest. Emboldened, he 330 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: even shoved his hand towards my virtual crotch and again 331 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 1: rubbing there. I was being virtually groped in a snowy 332 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: fortress with my brother in law and husband watching. Yeah, 333 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: it's pretty upsetting. Open letter read the whole thing. I 334 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: will say, even though they're supposed to be age limits, 335 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: you know you really can't stop that in the amount 336 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: of young kids that are on here is alarming. UM. 337 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong, I absolutely believe this could be 338 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: an adult doing this, but I know, like a lot 339 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: of this is like, uh, both of those incidences or 340 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: issues in the conversations and about like, hey, this is 341 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: teaching some things that are really really off putting. And 342 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: then even though this is not reality, the fact that 343 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: this is happening in a setting that's supposed to be 344 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 1: even safer because you're supposed to have safeguards and able 345 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:46,679 Speaker 1: to block people, that's really concerning, right. And it's one 346 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: of those things, um, which I think we're going to 347 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 1: talk about it in a minute, but where you might 348 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 1: not know that the safeguard feature was not it's not 349 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 1: automatically activated, or it wasn't at time. I think it 350 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 1: is now, so you would have to know I have 351 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: to go in where to find that right on? Um, 352 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,719 Speaker 1: which you might you just you know, I'm going into VR. 353 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: I might not be thinking, oh, somebody might grope me 354 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: in VR, and I need to go find this setting 355 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 1: and turn it on. Right, I will say, uh, I 356 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,360 Speaker 1: was watching again my partner in VR, and and there's 357 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 1: a setting that you can cast that onto TVs or 358 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: your phone or whatever and whatnot. Um, And he was 359 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: a hot dog. He's trying to show me how these 360 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: little worlds work and what it looks like. And other 361 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 1: people can come in, especially if it's open. And this 362 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 1: one kid just followed him, and it was a kid 363 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: because you could hear him scream like he has had 364 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: his podio on, and he would scream, this is kind 365 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: of funny. Hey hot dog, hot dog, come here, hot dog, 366 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: let me let me see. Lane would chase Joe aroun 367 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 1: until Joe knew that like a way to block him, 368 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: so he blocked him. But I would have not never 369 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: known that. I was like, what what is happening? Why 370 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: is he not leaving you alone? Because Joe would just 371 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: mind his own business to walk through this world and 372 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: this kid was following him around for a good I 373 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,120 Speaker 1: think ten minutes, and Joe really thought he had lost 374 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: the several times, and the kid would just pop up like, 375 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: hey hot dog. Again, it's not funny, but at that moment, 376 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: Joe being a hot dog as his avatar was quite funny, 377 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: right right. Well, And that's kind of the thing, is 378 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 1: what you're talking about, is like that moment of panic, 379 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: Like that was a pretty annoying but benign experience ultimately, 380 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 1: but it's not that a lot of times, and and 381 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: many women have reported just not feeling safe or comfortable. 382 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: Just kind of what you were talking about Samantha, like 383 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: you could feel how this could turn and be a 384 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,439 Speaker 1: space of harassment very quickly. When when you're in this 385 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: VR space, there's a lot of creepy staring. People have 386 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:58,919 Speaker 1: reported UM interactions like taking pictures without your consent, running 387 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: up to talk to you give you the sensation that 388 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:03,959 Speaker 1: they're talking in your ear. Because of how the headset works, 389 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,479 Speaker 1: it sounds like they're right in your right next to you. 390 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: Is a nerving and one woman described an experience where 391 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: male avatar surrounded her and subjected her to an onslought 392 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 1: of sexual innuendow, and she compared the experience to sexual assault. UM. 393 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 1: Others have said the tech advances can make these assaults 394 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 1: and harassments feel like they're they're I don't hesitate to 395 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,239 Speaker 1: say really happening, because they are really happening, but like 396 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 1: happening to your physical body. Another woman recounted logging on 397 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 1: into the metaverse and within a minute experiencing harassment and 398 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: being virtually gang raped, and her words quote, three to 399 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: four male avatars with male voices essentially but virtually gang 400 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: raped my avatar and took photos. As I tried to 401 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: get away, they yelled, don't pretend you didn't love it, 402 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:59,199 Speaker 1: and go rub yourself off to the photo. Um. And 403 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 1: this person said that it happens so quickly she didn't 404 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: have time to enact the safe zone feature. So many 405 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: women who came forward with these experiences were essentially victim 406 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 1: blamed and told it's just a virtual body, which it's 407 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 1: not far off to what people are being told in 408 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: the physical world. Um, it's a game, get over it. 409 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: It wasn't actually sexual abuse, but experts have reiterated sexual 410 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 1: harassment in the VR world is sexual harassment. In the 411 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 1: words of Catherine Cross, a PhD student researcher of online 412 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,679 Speaker 1: harassment at the University of Washington, she said, at the 413 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,360 Speaker 1: end of the day, the nature of virtual reality spaces 414 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: and such that if it is designed to trick the 415 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 1: user into thinking they're physically in a certain space, that 416 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: they're every bodily action is occurring in a three D environment. 417 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: It's part of the reason why emotional reactions can be 418 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 1: stronger in that space and why we are triggers the 419 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: same internal nervous system and psychological responses. Which, yeah, that 420 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense. And this is really because 421 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: also there's so many things to this, because we know 422 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: as people have permission to create their own worlds, that 423 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 1: they can also create their own rules. So this is 424 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 1: really unnerving about who would the ability, who knows how 425 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 1: to code, who knows about VR, who knows it better 426 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 1: than those who created it, which happens a lot, what 427 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: they can do, and the violence they can incite on 428 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,679 Speaker 1: that that is so scary. Yeah, and going back to 429 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,239 Speaker 1: that other woman's point, she was in there less than 430 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 1: a minute before she experienced this harassment. If if it's 431 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 1: your first time and you're just like, oh, let me 432 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: go check this out, and there are these players, these 433 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: male avatars that just do that to just wait and 434 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: they know what to do, Like that's terrific because you 435 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: wouldn't have a chance to even orient yourself or figure 436 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: things out. And Samantha were kind of joking about it 437 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: at the beginning, but we did both fall when we 438 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: were playing, because that's what we're talking about, Like, you, 439 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: the sensation is really the sensation feels very real, and 440 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 1: when you get like even a little disoriented, it can 441 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: be like almost panic inducing, like oh my gosh, what 442 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 1: is happening? So I totally believe, like right, all these 443 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:19,640 Speaker 1: accounts we're hearing from women that it feels so awful 444 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: and dangerous and very very real. And I'm not going 445 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: to talk about too much, but the fact that these 446 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: rooms can be created, there are a lot of traps 447 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: I don't know what how else to say, where they're 448 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 1: trying to entice a certain group of people to come 449 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: into their room. And if it takes a split second 450 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: to make someone uncomfortable or to abuse somebody, that's all 451 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: they really need. And a lot of them have to 452 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 1: have permission. You might be in a waiting list and 453 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: all of these and again, you know, especially for younger 454 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: kids and younger people who just want to explore and 455 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 1: they're like, oh, that's an interest that I have. Let's 456 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: go see what this is about. And again I've hit 457 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: some that I'm like, they're just talking about this, and 458 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 1: they'll like, I wanted these spectator I do this and 459 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: take out to I just want to see and move on. 460 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 1: But they notice you won't get it coming in. They're like, hey, 461 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,719 Speaker 1: so and so, and I'm like, oh god, they see me, 462 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: they don't see me, and I have a book. I 463 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: gotta I gotta go. But that's that's the conversation, is 464 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: that there's so much leeway to this. There's so many 465 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: freedoms to this. There are so many unrestricted ways that 466 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,919 Speaker 1: this can go wrong UM that it can be scary, 467 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 1: but also there's so many amazing things to this that 468 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: could be almost therapeutic, allowed to be used correctly and 469 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: monitored to a certain degree. So it's such a big, 470 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 1: wide open space, and with VR so new, as the 471 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: technology is really just skyrocketed the last five years. Yeah, 472 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: And I feel like that's something we've said and all 473 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: of these technology episodes we've done recently, is there's like 474 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: these beautiful things to it. There are these beautiful aspects 475 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: to it. There's this community building and ways to connect 476 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: with people. I found a lot of articles about which 477 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 1: I think we talked about with um twitch and read 478 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: it maybe, but I've had a lot of articles from 479 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 1: trans people who are like, this is one of the 480 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: few times I felt like I could, you know, kind 481 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,199 Speaker 1: of be myself and come out and and make this 482 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: avatar feel like how I feel inside UM And so 483 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: there they are all these amazing things of it, and 484 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: I I just hate that it's so many of the 485 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 1: kind of things we see in our daily lives have 486 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: transitioned into this platform because it's you know, it's all 487 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: go into a room and in the real world that's 488 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: not the word, like the outside the offline world UM, 489 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 1: and I don't feel safe, like you know what I mean, 490 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: Like it doesn't stop existing right in VR. And to 491 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 1: be fair, I think we come from a generation when 492 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,959 Speaker 1: UM chat rooms were new, so we were there. I 493 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 1: was just I was there at the beginning and they 494 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: weren't all great. Some of them were UM and the 495 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: online abuse and grooming and all of that that happened 496 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: makes me wary of chat rooms in general. And take 497 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:07,439 Speaker 1: this amplipopia because you are talking in speech UM and 498 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: then it's odd anyway. But like I'm very wherey like 499 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: as a millennial elder millennial, I'll just put it that way, 500 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 1: which I hate that term, but it makes me wary 501 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 1: and wonder how bad this is going to go, which 502 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: is sad because it should be new and fresh, but 503 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: nothing really is. Yeah, I mean that's the unfortunate thing. 504 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: I feel like where my my history professor used to say, 505 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: we're slinky where it's like a it's cyclical, but we 506 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: are moving ahead one cycle, but it's still cyclical. So 507 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: it's like I do think we are making progress, but 508 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: we're seeing the same issues over and over again. Right. Yeah. 509 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: Something else we've talked about is there are hardly any 510 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 1: avatars in the VR spaces. Um. So if you if 511 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: you've never played, there's kind of like these general rooms 512 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: of Samantha's been talking about mine. Mine looks like kind 513 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: of the lodge but with stars everywhere. A lot of 514 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: the avatars in those spaces are not uh women, are 515 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: mostly men or maybe non gender. But yeah, trans people 516 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: have written about how VR and VR avatars can be 517 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: this really powerful way to present their true selves, um 518 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: safely and perhaps for the first time. But it is 519 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: a problem when people don't feel comfortable using women gendered 520 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: avatars or if it is also just that uneven in population. 521 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: And I've spoken before about like as early as I 522 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: think twelve, I was like, I cannot have a woman avatar. 523 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: I'll get her asked too much. Yea, that sounds like 524 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: some kind of aspirational quote. Be hot dog, hot dog, 525 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: just the hot dog. Um. There has been a lot 526 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: of effort to provide a wide range of avatar options, 527 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: but still work to be done in that arena as well. 528 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: Women who work in the field have that that VR 529 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: is difficult to moderate because it requires moderators to watch 530 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: how avatars moved, for instance, like it basically it would 531 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 1: require a moderator to be there all the time. One 532 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: solution proposed involves a universal hand or arm signal to 533 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: tell the moderators something is wrong, but that has its 534 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: own limitations. But that was something. There's a letter you 535 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 1: can find. Actually, I think it's in response to that 536 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: open letter that we read a quote from earlier where 537 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: the mail developer of the game said, like, I wish 538 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: I had taken this more seriously, and I think we 539 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: could have taken we could have changed the course of 540 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: v R. But that was one of the things they 541 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: instituted after that happened, was that you had this kind 542 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: of hand gesture you would make to kind of tell 543 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: the moderators like something is wrong here and and a 544 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: review from the Digital Games Research Association about this whole 545 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: incident included this quote. Many online responses to this incident 546 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: were dismissive of bail mirrors um experience, and at times 547 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: abusive and misogynistic. Readers from all perspectives grappled with understanding 548 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: this act given the virtual and playful context that occurred 549 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: in Yeah, a lot of dismissing, right, which is concerning 550 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: because there's a lot of warning signs to be said 551 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: that happens offline, that happens in the spaces. So I 552 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: feel like to dismiss and say it's just a joke 553 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: is really dangerous to begin with that rhetoric in general. Um. Yeah, 554 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: And after researchers combed through eleven point five hours of chat, 555 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: they found over one instances that could be violations and 556 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: that on average, one of these took place every seven minutes, 557 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: which is on par with Twitter. Yeah, I mean that's 558 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: that's concerning too, every seven minutes of violation. And we've 559 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: we've discussed a million times, like a lot of these 560 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: platforms don't have the best if you're if it's a 561 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: violation and something's really gone right. The idea of VR dating, 562 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: which I want to return to, got more traction during 563 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: the pandemic, and VR dating apps have also tackled with 564 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: how to handle their the safety concerns of their users. 565 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: Most of these uh of these concerns around women. On 566 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: the other on the other side of it, some have 567 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: suggested VR dates as a safety measure themselves as a 568 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 1: way to safely have a first date and look for 569 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: any red flags. It's been used as a tool for 570 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: long distance relationships as well, so that's something I would 571 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: love to come back and look into that more in depth. 572 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: I would also love to come back to this. There 573 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: are women working in VR porn, and I found like 574 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: a bunch of articles about them, and I would love 575 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: to come back and and dig into that more deeply. Yeah, 576 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: I have a lot of questions and then I'm going 577 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 1: to leave it be'. I'm assuming the VR porn would 578 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: be a lot like only fans maybe except a little 579 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: or direct as well, where it was not just chat 580 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: or requests. Right. Well, the Star Wars holiday special predicted 581 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: this in n Oh my goodness, you're fired. You're fired. Hey, 582 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: I need to know. So are these again? We're gonna 583 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: come back to it, but if anybody is actually done, 584 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: because I need to understand the apps and the success 585 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: because it sounds genius also scary, So I need I 586 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: need to hear about this. Yes, yes, oh my gosh, 587 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: please let us know. Um, but now this is something 588 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: we're going to talk. I wasn't expecting this, but it 589 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: made total sense when I read it. Um, so I 590 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: was like googling women in VR, and one of the 591 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: top things that came up that I wasn't expecting was cybersickness. 592 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: Something called cybersickness. Yes, yes, yes I I. When I 593 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: read it, I was like, Oh, Samantha's gonna want to 594 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: hear about this. Um. So side sickness is the study 595 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: of motion sickness UM when it comes to technology and 596 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: how that and so this whole idea that I found 597 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 1: was basically asking the question like, do women experience more 598 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: cybersickness when playing VR? If so, why, and if so, 599 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: does that mean that it's essentially discrimination against women? So 600 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 1: here is a great but brief explanation of motion sickness 601 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 1: from Nevada Today. Motion sickness, of which VR sickness is 602 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,720 Speaker 1: a subset, is generally caused by a conflict between visual 603 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: and vestibular systems, which normally are in sync with each other. 604 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 1: For example, car sickness is caused when people feeling the 605 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 1: car accelerate vestibular cues, but they aren't looking outside the 606 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: window and they don't see the corresponding visual cues, causing conflict. 607 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,760 Speaker 1: VR sickness is the other way around. When navigating in VR, 608 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 1: optical cues like objects passing through the user's periphery provide 609 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 1: the user with the ilusion that they are moving, but 610 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: as users sit or stand still, there are no vestibular cues, 611 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 1: causing a visual vestibular conflict okay. An informal poll found 612 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: that over twenty two of women reported experiencing motion sickness 613 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,320 Speaker 1: when using a VR headset, compared to only about seven 614 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: percent of men, and a part of the problem has 615 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:26,320 Speaker 1: to do with interpupulary distance, or the distance between people's eyes. 616 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 1: A lot of ear headsets don't allow users to adjust 617 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 1: this distance, and researchers think that they were primarily designed 618 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 1: after men's facial structures, not women's. The default I P 619 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,479 Speaker 1: d um or distance between people's eyes as it's called, 620 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,760 Speaker 1: is larger than the average population on these headsets. UM 621 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: Hormonal differences might be at play as well. Women typically 622 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 1: have a smaller inner ear, which means they're more sensitive 623 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,280 Speaker 1: to vestibular activity, which means more motion sickness. UM people 624 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 1: do develop VR legs, as they're called basically what it 625 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 1: sounds like, you get used to it, but women develop 626 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: them at a lower rate, though that could be due 627 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: to a variety of factors. But essentially, yeah, these headsets 628 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 1: were designed around men. Doesn't match the kind of average 629 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 1: in society. I am justified. I'm vilified, okay, um, yeah, 630 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: because I definitely I can't do it for long periods 631 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 1: of time and it makes me very, very sick. But 632 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,800 Speaker 1: here's a quote from a venture beat. A user's experience 633 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 1: levels with flat screen gaming can predict VR sickness. A 634 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: skill called mental rotation and the capability to work with 635 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 1: and explore three D space in your head can't have 636 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: an impact on how susceptible a user is to VR sickness. 637 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,720 Speaker 1: According to a report from Satista, men play more games 638 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: from genres such as three D action games and first 639 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 1: person shooters, which are both types of flat screen games 640 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:02,360 Speaker 1: that improve mental rotation. Genres that don't contribute, like puzzle 641 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,760 Speaker 1: games and family far stimulators, are the ones that women 642 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,720 Speaker 1: play more often than others, like first person shooter games. 643 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: As me, I do play those puzzle games. Uh. This 644 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 1: difference between female gamers and male gamers could explain why 645 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: women still get sick more often. Oddly enough, I do 646 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: get motion sickness in watching other people play first person 647 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 1: shooter games or action games as well. That's why I 648 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:54,839 Speaker 1: was like this quote. I feel like it's like this 649 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: is also something I found interesting. So the headset isn't 650 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,880 Speaker 1: the only design factor that those women were not in 651 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: mind when these headsets and games were created. Women who 652 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: played the VR version of Resident Evil four, which I 653 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 1: desperately want to play, reported that the chest the chest 654 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 1: level required on some moves essentially equated to a boob punch. 655 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,759 Speaker 1: So basically, I think what they were saying is like, 656 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:21,719 Speaker 1: you have to make this motion where you almost kind 657 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: of hit your chest um to get into your item inventory, 658 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: which you're gonna want to do very quickly in a 659 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 1: game like Resionval four where zombies are coming to kill you, right, 660 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 1: but they don't. They didn't take into account boobs, Like 661 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 1: boobs might get in your way, and so you have 662 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 1: to like do more and actually hit yourself to get 663 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: this function to work. Some men have larger chests as well, 664 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,799 Speaker 1: so that can be good for them either. Yeah, well 665 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't think you're actually supposed to 666 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: hit your chest. It's a basically you don't have boobs 667 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,840 Speaker 1: because you have to move in so much. Yeah, no, exactly, 668 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 1: they exactly, But I think that's the kind of they 669 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 1: won't even think about that, like, oh, surely, flat chested, 670 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: traditional man, this won't be a problem. Other games have 671 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 1: similar issues where the grabbing of an item motion did 672 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 1: not take into account body types other than yes, kind 673 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 1: of this basic you know, traditional man, we'll say um. 674 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:22,239 Speaker 1: A technical product manager at Oculus named Charmagne Hung reported 675 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 1: early problems. Um. So, she was setting it out and 676 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 1: she was like, oh, my hands are too small to 677 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 1: reach grips on the controllers, mascara got no lenses, her 678 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 1: hair was too smooth for the straps um and she 679 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 1: was told essentially, that's probably just a youth thing. That's 680 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,359 Speaker 1: probably just a youth thing. Uh. So she asked for 681 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: women volunteers to try in the headset, collected data, showed 682 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 1: it to the male higher ups, and they changed their minds. 683 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 1: They're like, oh, okay, yeah see, but it took her. 684 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,399 Speaker 1: That's why it's so important that we have people at 685 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,720 Speaker 1: the early stages, because they were like, ah, it's probably 686 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 1: just you. It's fine, you're not shaped human. You can't pay. 687 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,400 Speaker 1: And related to this, the headset was also not designed 688 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,800 Speaker 1: for black people's hair. Unfortunately, could not this was behind 689 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:13,879 Speaker 1: the paywall, so I couldn't read the whole article, but 690 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 1: a woman, a black woman, did a bunch of research 691 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 1: on this and is is or Halves already created a 692 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:26,800 Speaker 1: prototype that works for black people there, yeah, because the 693 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,439 Speaker 1: thing about monists of the settings, it has to fit 694 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 1: tight yeah, to your head, which, by the way, I 695 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,799 Speaker 1: had difficulty the original oculus because my head is really 696 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 1: small compared to my partners, and so to adjust that 697 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:44,760 Speaker 1: we had to add padding literally things that we're probably 698 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 1: We got like towels and folded it up and put 699 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:49,320 Speaker 1: it underneath so I could fit it. Because they couldn't 700 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 1: adjust easily. You had to take it apart to adjust it. 701 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 1: So it definitely was not meant for people with and 702 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: I don't think I have a tiny head, right, so, 703 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:02,560 Speaker 1: but it was smaller than his who has the big head? 704 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 1: You did? You sure did. I had trouble with that too, 705 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 1: And I definitely experienced the pulling of hair, which I 706 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,400 Speaker 1: think that a lot of a lot of men with 707 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:17,840 Speaker 1: shorter hair heavy. I don't know, maybe I'm just wearing 708 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 1: it wrong, but it's heavy and talk about like causing 709 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 1: aches and pains on your head. I'm like, I just 710 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,760 Speaker 1: committed just putting it on. I have a lot of ailments. 711 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 1: Apparently that's what this episode is investigating. And yeah, there 712 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: have been overall issues around accessibility and disability. As we 713 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 1: said it could virtual reality could be a great tool 714 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 1: in that area as well, UM, but there are just 715 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,319 Speaker 1: so many issues right now around that, around people being 716 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: able to use it or not being able to use it. 717 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: When we're talking about the future. There are some silver 718 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 1: linings here and people working to make VR better for 719 00:41:55,560 --> 00:42:00,759 Speaker 1: everybody in Maria Kralav founded Women in Full Reality, which 720 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,480 Speaker 1: is a really great resource UM and networking advocacy organization 721 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,320 Speaker 1: with the mission of quote increasing the visibility of women 722 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 1: in the virtual reality, of women in virtual reality, and 723 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,319 Speaker 1: attracting more women to the field. And they have a 724 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: list of goals that include things like training, identifying factors, 725 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:22,440 Speaker 1: keeping women from the field, and providing experts to the media. 726 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:24,879 Speaker 1: So there's a lot um I really recommended if you're 727 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,319 Speaker 1: interested in in any way. Jin Do Wong, who co 728 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:33,320 Speaker 1: founded Shift or Capital s h UM two Forward Slashes 729 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,920 Speaker 1: f T a organization pushing for future technologies to keep 730 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,440 Speaker 1: inclusion in mind UM and and they've been really outspoken 731 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,799 Speaker 1: about why this is important in VR and how we 732 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,880 Speaker 1: can go about it. There's an organization called Equal Reality 733 00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 1: and they use VR simulations to foster empathy and they 734 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,799 Speaker 1: host diversity inclusion training sessions. That's something else we could 735 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:56,640 Speaker 1: come back and do a whole episode on because there's 736 00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 1: a lot of argument about that. I wanted to include 737 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,560 Speaker 1: it because that's also, as we've said, there are so 738 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:07,080 Speaker 1: many ways that VR could be this really beneficial and 739 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:11,440 Speaker 1: good tool. But yeah, and there's a lot of stories 740 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:13,360 Speaker 1: UM And I know we didn't really hit onto it, 741 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,160 Speaker 1: but VR has been used for military training and UM, 742 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:18,960 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of conversation that needs to be 743 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:24,439 Speaker 1: had about weaponizing tech for power UM and why that 744 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:26,960 Speaker 1: it was geared towards men to begin with, and the 745 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,719 Speaker 1: kind of still is UM and taking it into it. 746 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,719 Speaker 1: Hey we can make money, let's go UM. But there's 747 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:37,520 Speaker 1: a lot of dark history behind VR that like we 748 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,680 Speaker 1: obviously wouldn't get into, but that needs to be considered 749 00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,080 Speaker 1: as to the future of it. And I was also 750 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,200 Speaker 1: thinking we need to do a future episode on drones 751 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:48,359 Speaker 1: because the way it has taken off and then who 752 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,800 Speaker 1: is involved in what is what is being used for today? 753 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 1: But I find it interesting that that is its history 754 00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,320 Speaker 1: and trying to find out how is it shifting, is 755 00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:01,680 Speaker 1: it shifting, is it actually becoming more equal lies? And 756 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:06,840 Speaker 1: what truly is the purpose? Yeah? Yeah, and I do think, 757 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,920 Speaker 1: like again, going back to that short documentary watched the 758 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,120 Speaker 1: crow Like Crow the Legend that was so good and 759 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:14,480 Speaker 1: it was so beautiful and it was such a like 760 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,759 Speaker 1: wonderful way to utilize VR. I think there are all 761 00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:22,440 Speaker 1: these applications that are fantastic that we could do, but 762 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,759 Speaker 1: there is this dark side that we also have to 763 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,200 Speaker 1: talk about and keep in mind. And I think that's 764 00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,600 Speaker 1: again that's been the thread through all of these technology episodes. 765 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 1: So yeah, really really really would love to hear from 766 00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:40,959 Speaker 1: listeners about your experience and v are um, either someone 767 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 1: who's played it or a creator. That'd be fantastic. Uh. 768 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,200 Speaker 1: And yeah, we are working on a listener mail episodes, 769 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:51,759 Speaker 1: so please if you want us to read something, uh, 770 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 1: please send it soon because it's going to come out 771 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,399 Speaker 1: in the next month or so. So and to those 772 00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,839 Speaker 1: who have been uh sending messages through Twitter as long 773 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,279 Speaker 1: as it's going and um Instagram, especially by your experiences 774 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:06,799 Speaker 1: in things like Twitch and Redded, thank you keep sitting 775 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,560 Speaker 1: there because it's fascinating to read. We are reading them. Yes, 776 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:11,440 Speaker 1: it really, really really is and we've learned a lot, 777 00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:15,600 Speaker 1: so I'm so excited to share all those. Yes, you 778 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,759 Speaker 1: can send those to our email, which is stefinitely your 779 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:20,560 Speaker 1: mom Stuff at ihart meia dot com. You can find 780 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,440 Speaker 1: us on Twitter, Mom Stuff Podcast or on Instagram as 781 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:25,680 Speaker 1: Stuff One Never Told You. Thanks as always to our 782 00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:29,200 Speaker 1: super producer Christina. Thank you, Christina, and thanks to you 783 00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,319 Speaker 1: for listening. Stuff I Never Told You, production of by 784 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,120 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. For more podcast for my heart Radio, you 785 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:35,360 Speaker 1: can check out the heart Radio app, Apple podcast wherever 786 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:36,640 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows