WEBVTT - #081 Jason Flom with Sunny Jacobs - RE-RELEASE 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:06.840 I came from a beautiful neighborhood. I had a beautiful life. 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:09.720 I went to sleep because September seventh was the first 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:12.000 day of my high school year. I was gonna be 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:14.760 a senior at twenty two, I was set to start college. 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:18.400 I woke up and my life was never the same again. 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:22.440 Cops came out with guns drawn, and I never saw 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:24.000 freedom ever since after that. 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:27.240 It's like roach Moe Town. Once you get in, you 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:28.200 and I can't now. 0:00:30.200 --> 0:00:49.879 This is wrongful conviction. With Jason Flommer today we have 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:53.280 a very special guest, Sunny Jacob's one of my favorite 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:57.880 people in the world. Sunny Jacob's story is as crazy 0:00:58.040 --> 0:00:59.960 as it can get. Is that fair to say, Sonny? 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:00.520 Yeah, it is. 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:04.960 It's pretty crazy. So Sonny was wrongfully convicted in nineteen 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:10.520 seventy six. I'm particularly thrilled today because joining Sonny in 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:14.119 the studio with me is her Well. I could call 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:16.640 you a new husband, Peter Fringle. It's a few years now, 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:21.680 but he's still a new husband. And Sonny's daughter, Christina Tafarah, 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:25.400 is going to speak today publicly for the first time ever. 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:30.120 So Sonny, Peter, Christina, welcome to Ronful conviction very much, 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:33.120 Thank you, Jase. So, Sonny, let's go back to the beginning. 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:36.400 You were living where at the time that this all 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:37.679 went down. 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:43.120 At the time that this happened, we had been living 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:47.039 in North Carolina, but Jesse had gone down to Florida 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:52.280 with the promise of some work and we ended up 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:53.880 joining him down there. 0:01:54.600 --> 0:01:56.800 So he went down there originally to do some work 0:01:56.840 --> 0:01:59.080 in Florida. But you went down with the two kids 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:02.720 afterwards to meet him. Yes, right, And then when you 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:05.560 went down there, your car broke down. Is that what 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:06.800 happens how this all started? 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:09.360 Pretty much, that's how it all started, right. 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:11.240 So your car broke down. Now you're stranded in Florida. 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:14.519 You got to get back home, right, right, So take 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:17.080 us through it. What happens next? You were offered a ride, 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:20.040 which was turned out to be a you know, the 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:23.720 beginning of the beginning of the terrible Saga of Sonny Jacobs, 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:26.920 which so fill us in filling the audience. 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:32.799 Well, the card broken down, and Jesse asked a friend 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:36.160 of his to give us a lift, and we were 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:40.040 going to go someplace where he knew someone where we 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:43.080 could stay and wait for my parents to send some money. 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:45.519 So we could get back home to North Carolina. 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:48.680 Right, but then you end up you end up actually 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:50.560 taking a rest in the car when this. 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:54.800 Happened, right, yeah, we pulled into a rest area off the. 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:55.840 Highway in Florida. 0:02:56.040 --> 0:03:00.400 Yep, in Florida. This was and I was in the 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:02.359 back with the two children. Now, my son at the 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:05.079 time was nine years old. My daughter was only ten 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:08.400 months old. She was still nursing, right, yeah, she was 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:13.320 a baby. And so Jess was in the passenger seat 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:18.480 and his friend who's driving, And then so we were 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:20.920 sleeping in the car in the rest area. Nothing was 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:23.160 going on, there was no crime being committed, there was 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:25.480 no reason for anybody to. 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:28.040 It seems like an unlikely place for everything to. 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:30.839 Go wrong completely, I mean in your sleep. 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:32.160 Now, just to give you a visual. By the way, 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:34.120 if you would meet Sonny, you would see that she 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:36.960 looks like the least likely person who have ever served 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:41.000 time in anything other than you know, it looks like 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:42.800 some of you would meet in a coffee shop or 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:46.920 a in a theater or something. I mean, she's the 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:49.520 least likely person to have ever served time on death road. 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:53.120 At the time, I was, besides being a young wife 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:55.880 and mother. I was also a hippie, you know, like. 0:03:56.320 --> 0:03:57.080 Still a hippie. 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:01.520 Yeah, cool. It was a hippie and a vegetarian. So 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:05.520 I mean, I was totally the least likely person to 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:11.360 be in any way involved in a scene where somebody 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:12.320 would get killed. 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:15.040 So you're in the car, you're sleeping, and there's a 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:16.799 knock knock on the window, right. 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:19.400 Well, yeah, we were sleeping in the car. And then 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:22.640 the police apparently came to do a routine check of 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:28.480 the rest area, and it was in the police notes 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:32.520 that they said that when they looked in the driver's window, 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:36.240 they saw a handgun between the driver's feet, and that's 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:40.559 what started the whole thing. They pulled open the door, 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:45.839 they took the gun, they or pulled him out of 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:48.440 the car. Then they ordered Jesse out of the car. 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:51.279 They took everyone's ID. 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:53.880 You were still in the back seat with the kids. 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:55.479 I was still in the back seat with the kids. 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:59.720 I never left the back seat, and they called in 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:05.039 the driver's identification. Then they wanted Jesse's idea and he 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:08.480 was reluctant to give it, and then they asked me 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:13.600 from my ID. And then the word came back on 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:16.520 the police radio that the driver from whom they had 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:21.640 taken the handgun was on parole, and as I say, so. 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:23.080 He was subject to arrest. 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:25.200 Well, as I say, off of. 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:26.040 Your gun and being on parole. 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:29.000 Right, yeah, even in America, you're not allowed to have 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:32.599 a gun if you're on parole. So that changed everything. 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:36.800 The policeman then drew his gun and he said something 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:40.160 like if nobody moved, the next one to move is dead. 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:44.680 And then there's a gunfire. And so I just covered 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:45.200 the children. 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:49.080 So you're like literally laying on top of the children 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:52.120 as a mother would. Yes, I mean to protect them, 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:54.240 and then there's guns and you don't know what's going on. 0:05:54.279 --> 0:06:00.120 At this point seven thirty in the morning, it was foggy, 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:04.960 it was a bit cool still in the morning, and 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:10.039 all of a sudden, this insane thing is going on. 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:14.719 I mean, I don't know how many bullets were fired, 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:16.760 but it was like, all of a sudden, we were 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:21.679 in a war. And I was over the children until 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:27.640 it got quiet, and I actually wasn't sure if we 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:32.240 were still alive because it was so quiet, and then 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.760 I determined that I was breathing. We were all, I 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:40.320 guess shocked by what was happening. And then I looked 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:44.520 up to see if Jesse was okay, and I saw 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:48.039 him just standing there, frozen in between the two cars, 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:54.040 looking as shocked basically as I felt. And the other 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:55.800 guy was running around the car with a gun in 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:58.440 his hand, ordering Jesse to put us into the police car. 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:03.160 At that point we became hostages of the man who 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:05.240 had just shot the two policemen. 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:07.960 Right now, it's more surreal. Right now, you're being ordered 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:09.840 to get into a police car by a guy who 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:12.840 just killed two policemen who you thought was your friend, 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:15.000 who was doing your favor giving you a ride. So 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:17.120 it doesn't get much weirder than that. And now you've 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:20.160 got to take the kids at gunpoint and put him 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:21.200 in a police car, that's right. 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:23.960 And as he helped me out of the car with 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:28.840 the baby and with my son Eric, Eric slipped and 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:33.440 fell into a pool of blood. Well, and that's when 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:37.480 I saw the two policemen on the ground. So helped 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:40.040 Eric up and we got We were put into the 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:44.360 back of the police car, Jesse again in the passenger side, 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:46.200 and the guy drove us away. 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:48.560 You know, if this was in a movie, nobody would 0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:50.320 believe it, right so now you're in the police car. 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:51.040 What happens next? 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:55.440 I was thinking in my mind, okay, like, how do 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:58.840 we get away from the sky. He was racing down 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:04.480 the highway, and because it was on the interstate, then 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:08.640 he pulls off. He was looking for to change cars. 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:11.280 I guess he realized that the police car was a 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:17.280 little too conspicuous. So there was a man, an old fellow, 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:25.360 going out to get his mail, and the driver walked 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:29.880 up to him, and Jesse followed him. And I was 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:31.400 still in the back of the car with the kids, 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:34.719 and I thought, ah, now now I can get get 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:38.240 away from here, you know. So I tried to open 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:40.760 the doors, but you can't open the back of a 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:49.199 police car. Yeah, so we're stuck. Anyway, Jesse came back 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:51.760 and said, listen, he says, we have to go with 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:56.480 him in this man's car. So it takes us in 0:08:56.559 --> 0:09:01.120 the transfers into what is now slightly less conspicuous in 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:03.000 a police car, a orange Cadillac. 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:06.720 Oh that's great. This guy's this guy's got a flair 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:07.480 for the dramatic. 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:13.199 So now this other poor man is also hostage. They 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:16.520 put me and the children in the front seat. Jesse 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:20.080 and the older man are in the back seat. He's 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:23.679 driving along and there's very heavy traffic by now. 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:26.120 Right, it's a rush hour. 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:31.440 It's rush hour, and I could hear helicopters above, and 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:35.680 I thought, oh my god, maybe the traffic is so 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:38.880 bad because maybe there's a roadblock or something, and maybe 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:41.320 that's a helicopter. And we're gonna be saved, right, You're 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:41.920 gonna be saved. 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:44.880 Right, the cops are gonna come get you. Great nightmare. 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:47.400 And what we didn't know at the time was that 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:51.360 when the man went out to get his mail, his 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:54.040 wife was watching out the window. Something shouldn't happen to 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:56.560 him from the building to the post box and back, 0:09:56.600 --> 0:10:02.000 you know, and she saw whole thing, and she called 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:07.520 the police. So the police. So this means two things. One, 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:10.560 the police knew that this man had been kidnapped by 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:13.079 this other guy who had with the police car and 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:17.160 US number. Two, they knew that there was a woman, 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:22.040 two children, and a man hostage in that car. 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:23.360 In the orange Cadillac. 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:26.520 Yeah, we're driving along in the orange Cadilloc. I'm now 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:28.560 in the front with the two children. Jesse's in the 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:33.960 back with the old man, and we come upon the roadblock. 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:37.760 You can see it. There's a roadblock. Thank god, I'm 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:43.000 thinking he makes this insane decision to try to avoid 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:46.480 the roadblock, at which point he makes a sharp left 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:51.360 and all the police lined up at the roadblock with 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:58.520 their rifles open fire on the car. Holy shit, again, 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:02.480 we are being bomb guarded by bullets. I covered the 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:09.880 children again, and the car was bouncing with the bullets, 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:13.760 just like you know in the movie about Bonnie and Clyde, 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:16.600 where the car is actually bouncing with bullets. That's how 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:20.920 it was. And then we crashed. We crashed into a 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:24.400 semi that was parked as part of the roadblock. The 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:29.680 police surround the car. The only one who's actually injured 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:31.480 was the driver. He was shot in the leg. 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:35.040 That's a miracle, yes, yes, it's. 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:37.640 A miracle that we were all alive. So they took 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:41.000 him and put him in an ambulance. They took Jesse 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:43.640 out of the car. They handcuffed him. They took the 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:45.640 man out of the car, They took him away somewhere, 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:51.120 and Jesse's standing there, handcuffed and a cop comes from 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:53.800 the crowd with his gun turned around with the button 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:57.400 forward and ran over and smashed Jesse in the head 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:00.560 and knocked them to the ground, and he said, you 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:02.520 better get away from me because they're gonna kill me. 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:07.280 Okay, so you're holding his hand, you're holding the baby, Christina, 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:09.120 who's here. Now we can call you a miracle baby. 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:11.280 Now since you survived before you were a year old, 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:16.520 you survived two gun fights. I mean, it's quite extraordinary, 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:19.960 you know, very lucky. And she's a lovely, lovely young 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:22.160 woman if you'd meet her now, So go ahead. So 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:24.760 now what I mean even still, what are you thinking? Now? 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:27.960 Are you thinking because you your saviors are here the cops. 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:31.080 No, they're not saviors anymore, because they're pointing guns at me. 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:33.439 A minute ago they were, yeah. 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:35.160 And then all of a sudden, the whole thing turned, 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:37.320 and now they're pointing guns at me. 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:38.800 And I. 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:43.840 Tried to explain that we didn't know. I didn't know, 0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:49.000 like really what was going on, But they didn't. They 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:52.640 weren't listening because they were there. They had just had 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:54.960 two of their comrades at the time. I didn't know, 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:58.240 but they were killed. They were dead. We or one 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:00.560 of us or all of us, we respond and it 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:02.240 wasn't up to them to figure it out. It was 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:06.760 up to them to apprehend us, and so they take 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:10.400 us to an unused portion of the railroad track where 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:12.959 the police get out of their cars and start arguing 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:16.120 among themselves whether or not to take us in or 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:18.720 to simply kill us right there and say we tried 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:25.680 to escape. Wow, I couldn't tell you how many there were, 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:27.360 but there was a group of them, and I remember 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:29.800 there were three of them standing right by the car 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:32.800 where I was, and they were so vehement about it. 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:35.800 They were like, you know, like when you people are swaying, 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:38.240 they start spitting, you know, like I could see the 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:40.800 spit coming out in their molines when they were talking, 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:44.000 you know, And it was it was one of the 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:48.840 most frightening moments. And like I'm sitting there praying, like 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:51.679 I hope the one I call in my head the 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:55.720 voice of reason should prevail, which thing God Eventually he did, 0:13:55.800 --> 0:14:03.319 because otherwise they were nobody would have known. So he 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:06.320 did prevail. They decided they would take us in. Two 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:09.040 detectives came in and they started trying to question me, 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:11.520 and they record. In those days, they had the you know, 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:15.880 the tape recorders with real tape, right, you know, and 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:19.720 so they kept trying to ask me what was what happened, 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:21.480 and I kept telling them. 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:22.960 I'm really I really don't know. 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:26.760 I really don't know exactly what happened, because just like 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:30.600 I told you, they were taking our id and asking 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:34.320 us questions and then they were shooting, and I honestly 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:41.920 didn't see who were shooting. So they didn't believe me 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:45.440 because they figure, if you're there, you know what happened. 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:48.760 So they every time I'd say, you know, you're trying 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:51.320 to get me to say something that's not true, they'd 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:56.000 stopped the recording and start a new recording. While we 0:14:56.000 --> 0:15:02.960 were being interrogated, the guy, the driver, the guy who 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:06.720 actually did the killing, from his hospital bed, asked to 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:11.440 speak to the prosecutor. Now I was this is how 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:14.480 later I found this out. I didn't know. We didn't 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:18.960 know at the time, but you see, he knew he 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:22.920 was facing the electric chair, so he wanted to make 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:28.280 a deal, so he requested to speak to the prosecutor. 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:36.960 And the prosecutor at the time was apparently had ambitions 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:41.320 to run for district attorney, so rather than get one conviction, 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:45.200 he was going to get three convictions, and after our trials, 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:49.040 he did, in fact resign as prosecutor and run for 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:52.600 district attorney on the basis of his strong stance against crime. 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:58.520 So what happened was that the killer was offered a 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:02.040 plea bargain for three life sentences in exchange for his 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:05.840 testimony against Jesse and me. These plea bargains should not 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:08.640 be allowed in capital cases because it's always going to 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:11.000 be the most guilty party that takes the plea bargain 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:13.200 because they're the one who has the most to lose. 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:15.200 Well, they have everything to lose their life. 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:18.920 Well, I thought, yes, exactly, So I thought, well, when 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:20.600 I found out about it, I thought, well, this is 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:24.760 a no brainer. No innocent person would accept three life sentences. 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:27.480 I mean, that's not a bargain, you know, not to 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:32.320 an innocent person. So I figured the jury will who this, 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:35.080 they'll know and we'll go home. 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:36.360 By the way, I never just did the concept of 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:38.640 three life senses. Does anyone have three lives? I don't 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:41.120 know why in this country. It's very odd, right, I'm 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:43.880 never like, I mean, anyway, it's very very odd. And 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:45.880 he eventually got out. But that's another story. So it's 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:46.400 even weird. 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:48.880 Yeah, that's another story. But he's also back in so 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:50.640 just so people shouldn't how do you. 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:52.240 Have three lifess why didn't you give the guy one 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:54.480 life sentence and keep them in instead of three life senses? 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:56.520 I don't know whatever. That's just another aspect of the case. 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:59.120 That's that's very strange and the system is very strange. 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:00.000 But anyway, so go ahead. 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:06.439 So this plea arrangement was made unbeknownst to us. And 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:11.119 also in order to justify giving the plea bargain, they 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:14.960 have to give the person a polygraph test to prove 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:18.439 that they're not making the deal with the real killer. Okay, 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:21.760 so apparently he was given a polygraph test and they 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:26.040 submitted a report that he passed a polygraph test. Therefore 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:29.400 they were justified in making the plea bargain. Jesse's trial 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:31.760 went first. He has tried, convicted, and sentenced to death 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:36.520 in four days. My trial lasts two weeks. We all 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:42.399 were appointed the public defender. But because now one was 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:44.800 going to testify against the others, they had to give 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:49.280 us special public defenders, which is regular lawyers who act 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:52.240 as who represent you as if they were the public defender, 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:55.720 and they don't get paid a lot, so they don't 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:59.520 always do a lot because they have other clients, they 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:04.120 have to make a living. So and my parents were asked, actually, 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:07.040 do you want to maybe get a hire a lawyer. 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:09.919 But we thought, why should they have to mortgage their 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:12.199 home to try to get me a lawyer, because we 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.200 were told even in those days, it'd be one hundred 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:17.000 thousand dollars or more. In those days, I was a 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:20.920 total fortune. So I said, there's no need to do that. 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:24.159 I'm completely innocent. I mean, it's not like there was 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:27.439 even a fingerprint, there's nothing. It was absolutely nothing against me. 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:30.720 So we didn't have the dream team and we didn't 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:34.560 have the expert witnesses or whatever. And my lawyer at 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:39.720 the time, the appointed lawyer, said, we're not going to 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:45.560 put up a defense because there's absolutely no nothing against you. 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:49.439 There's no evidence against you, and it gives me a 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:54.280 better position in the closing arguments. So I go, fine, 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:57.840 you know whatever you say, you're my lawyer. I'm not scared. 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:02.160 I didn't do anything. I still believed in truth, justice 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:04.520 in the American way, and Superman and all those things. 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:10.200 So in the second week of the trial, the jury 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:16.879 started asking questions. They weren't convinced by the killer, so 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:20.560 It turns out that the prosecutor or his team, whoever 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.600 it was, went and located a girl in the jail 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:28.040 who had been arrested for a minor drugs charge, and 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:32.040 she and her boyfriend were arrested, and they told her 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:34.159 that if she could help them to convict me, she 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:38.360 and her boyfriend would released the next day. If they couldn't, 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:40.480 then she would go to prison for a long time, 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:42.440 her life would be ruined, and she'd never get back 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:43.199 to university. 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:45.920 Jail House snitches are actually, you know. In the most 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:49.800 recent report from the Center for Ronful Convictions, it was 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:54.280 shown that in almost forty six percent of the capital 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:57.600 cases that have been overturned, forty five point nine percent, 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:03.520 a jail house snitch was the sort of deciding factor, right, so, well, she. 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:07.520 Said that I spoke to her in the one night 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:09.800 that they put her in the bit cell block where 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:13.320 I was, and I never spoke to her that. She 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:15.000 said that I told her that I did it, I 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:18.040 enjoyed it, and I'd do it again. Like, all right, 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:21.440 somebody would really say that to a strange person, you know, 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:24.440 I thought, now they're really going to know that this 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:27.360 is ridiculous. And the jury wasn't convinced, and in fact, 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:29.440 they asked more questions, and they were starting to ask 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:32.800 questions about like maybe could they at least consider accomplice 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:35.360 or something like that. And it was as a result 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:40.680 of the judge's instructions to the jury at that point 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:44.160 that they felt that they had no choice to convict, 0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:47.200 but to convict because we didn't put up a defense. 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:51.119 And I should say that the judge had been a 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:55.480 former highway patrolman and we had asked him to recuse 0:20:55.560 --> 0:21:01.320 himself from the cases because you couldn't possibly be non 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:05.440 biased in a case that involved the killing a policeman 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:08.760 if you had been part of that brotherhood yourself. But 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:11.080 he refused to step down from the cases. 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:14.399 So it was worth noting that the judge judge had 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:16.080 a nickname which was Maximum Dan. 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:19.639 Yes, and he kept a little miniature electric chair on 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:21.320 his desk that he used to do ZIZI. 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:25.200 You know, let's just reflect on that for a moment. 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:28.320 So you have a judge, this is America. You have 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:32.399 a judge who's a former state trooper presiding over a 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:34.640 trial in which a state trooper was he a state 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:37.480 trooper was killed. There's no reason to think that he 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:41.160 wouldn't be totally objective under those circumstances. And he's got 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:43.720 an electric chair on his desk going zoop zoop zoop, 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:46.880 right touching it and like almost like taunting you, right, 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:50.000 And he's and his name was Maximum Dan. 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:53.960 So it was as a result though, of his explanation 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:56.879 of the law to the jurors that they felt they 0:21:56.920 --> 0:21:59.879 had no choice but to convict. Then comes the sentencing, 0:22:01.119 --> 0:22:04.119 and in the sentencing phase they have to be unanimous 0:22:04.160 --> 0:22:07.479 in order to give a death sentence. Okay, And there 0:22:07.520 --> 0:22:10.040 was one juror, and this is really important for people 0:22:10.080 --> 0:22:13.240 to know because people think, oh, you know, one person 0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:16.000 doesn't make a difference. One person does make a difference 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:21.439 because this juror wasn't convinced. He wasn't really convinced that 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:23.960 they should have convicted me, but he surely wasn't going 0:22:24.000 --> 0:22:26.959 to sentence me to death. And so he stood up 0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:29.080 for what he believed in the face of all the 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:33.040 pressure from the other jurors to agree with them, and 0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:40.399 as a result of his integrity that my jury wasn't 0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:43.520 able to be unanimous and I was sentenced to life. 0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:47.119 That's where the judge gets involved, right, And This principle 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:50.000 of judicial override is something I want to talk about 0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:54.840 because this judge then overrode the jury right and he 0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:57.800 decided that you should be sentenced to death right. And 0:22:57.840 --> 0:23:01.680 that's an interesting thing to talk about because there were 0:23:01.720 --> 0:23:05.320 only three states in which this principle of judicial override 0:23:06.560 --> 0:23:10.600 was constitution was considered constitutional. Now there's only one, and 0:23:10.640 --> 0:23:13.040