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Speaker 1: I came from a beautiful neighborhood. I had a beautiful life.

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Speaker 1: I went to sleep because September seventh was the first

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Speaker 1: day of my high school year. I was gonna be

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Speaker 1: a senior at twenty two, I was set to start college.

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Speaker 1: I woke up and my life was never the same again.

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Speaker 2: Cops came out with guns drawn, and I never saw

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Speaker 2: freedom ever since after that.

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Speaker 1: It's like roach Moe Town. Once you get in, you

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Speaker 1: and I can't now.

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Speaker 3: This is wrongful conviction. With Jason Flommer today we have

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Speaker 3: a very special guest, Sunny Jacob's one of my favorite

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Speaker 3: people in the world. Sunny Jacob's story is as crazy

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Speaker 3: as it can get. Is that fair to say, Sonny?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.

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Speaker 3: It's pretty crazy. So Sonny was wrongfully convicted in nineteen

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Speaker 3: seventy six. I'm particularly thrilled today because joining Sonny in

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Speaker 3: the studio with me is her Well. I could call

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Speaker 3: you a new husband, Peter Fringle. It's a few years now,

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Speaker 3: but he's still a new husband. And Sonny's daughter, Christina Tafarah,

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Speaker 3: is going to speak today publicly for the first time ever.

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Speaker 3: So Sonny, Peter, Christina, welcome to Ronful conviction very much,

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Jase. So, Sonny, let's go back to the beginning.

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Speaker 3: You were living where at the time that this all

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Speaker 3: went down.

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Speaker 2: At the time that this happened, we had been living

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Speaker 2: in North Carolina, but Jesse had gone down to Florida

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Speaker 2: with the promise of some work and we ended up

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Speaker 2: joining him down there.

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Speaker 3: So he went down there originally to do some work

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Speaker 3: in Florida. But you went down with the two kids

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Speaker 3: afterwards to meet him. Yes, right, And then when you

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Speaker 3: went down there, your car broke down. Is that what

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Speaker 3: happens how this all started?

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Speaker 2: Pretty much, that's how it all started, right.

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Speaker 3: So your car broke down. Now you're stranded in Florida.

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Speaker 3: You got to get back home, right, right, So take

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Speaker 3: us through it. What happens next? You were offered a ride,

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Speaker 3: which was turned out to be a you know, the

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Speaker 3: beginning of the beginning of the terrible Saga of Sonny Jacobs,

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Speaker 3: which so fill us in filling the audience.

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Speaker 2: Well, the card broken down, and Jesse asked a friend

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Speaker 2: of his to give us a lift, and we were

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Speaker 2: going to go someplace where he knew someone where we

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Speaker 2: could stay and wait for my parents to send some money.

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Speaker 2: So we could get back home to North Carolina.

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Speaker 3: Right, but then you end up you end up actually

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Speaker 3: taking a rest in the car when this.

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Speaker 2: Happened, right, yeah, we pulled into a rest area off the.

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Speaker 3: Highway in Florida.

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Speaker 2: Yep, in Florida. This was and I was in the

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Speaker 2: back with the two children. Now, my son at the

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Speaker 2: time was nine years old. My daughter was only ten

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Speaker 2: months old. She was still nursing, right, yeah, she was

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Speaker 2: a baby. And so Jess was in the passenger seat

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Speaker 2: and his friend who's driving, And then so we were

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Speaker 2: sleeping in the car in the rest area. Nothing was

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Speaker 2: going on, there was no crime being committed, there was

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Speaker 2: no reason for anybody to.

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Speaker 3: It seems like an unlikely place for everything to.

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Speaker 2: Go wrong completely, I mean in your sleep.

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Speaker 3: Now, just to give you a visual. By the way,

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Speaker 3: if you would meet Sonny, you would see that she

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Speaker 3: looks like the least likely person who have ever served

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Speaker 3: time in anything other than you know, it looks like

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Speaker 3: some of you would meet in a coffee shop or

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Speaker 3: a in a theater or something. I mean, she's the

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Speaker 3: least likely person to have ever served time on death road.

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Speaker 2: At the time, I was, besides being a young wife

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Speaker 2: and mother. I was also a hippie, you know, like.

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Speaker 3: Still a hippie.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, cool. It was a hippie and a vegetarian. So

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Speaker 2: I mean, I was totally the least likely person to

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Speaker 2: be in any way involved in a scene where somebody

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Speaker 2: would get killed.

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Speaker 3: So you're in the car, you're sleeping, and there's a

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Speaker 3: knock knock on the window, right.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, we were sleeping in the car. And then

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Speaker 2: the police apparently came to do a routine check of

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Speaker 2: the rest area, and it was in the police notes

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Speaker 2: that they said that when they looked in the driver's window,

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Speaker 2: they saw a handgun between the driver's feet, and that's

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Speaker 2: what started the whole thing. They pulled open the door,

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Speaker 2: they took the gun, they or pulled him out of

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Speaker 2: the car. Then they ordered Jesse out of the car.

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Speaker 2: They took everyone's ID.

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Speaker 3: You were still in the back seat with the kids.

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Speaker 2: I was still in the back seat with the kids.

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Speaker 2: I never left the back seat, and they called in

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Speaker 2: the driver's identification. Then they wanted Jesse's idea and he

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Speaker 2: was reluctant to give it, and then they asked me

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Speaker 2: from my ID. And then the word came back on

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Speaker 2: the police radio that the driver from whom they had

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Speaker 2: taken the handgun was on parole, and as I say, so.

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Speaker 3: He was subject to arrest.

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Speaker 2: Well, as I say, off of.

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Speaker 3: Your gun and being on parole.

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Speaker 2: Right, yeah, even in America, you're not allowed to have

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Speaker 2: a gun if you're on parole. So that changed everything.

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Speaker 2: The policeman then drew his gun and he said something

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Speaker 2: like if nobody moved, the next one to move is dead.

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Speaker 2: And then there's a gunfire. And so I just covered

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Speaker 2: the children.

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Speaker 3: So you're like literally laying on top of the children

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Speaker 3: as a mother would. Yes, I mean to protect them,

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Speaker 3: and then there's guns and you don't know what's going on.

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Speaker 2: At this point seven thirty in the morning, it was foggy,

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Speaker 2: it was a bit cool still in the morning, and

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, this insane thing is going on.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know how many bullets were fired,

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Speaker 2: but it was like, all of a sudden, we were

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Speaker 2: in a war. And I was over the children until

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Speaker 2: it got quiet, and I actually wasn't sure if we

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Speaker 2: were still alive because it was so quiet, and then

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Speaker 2: I determined that I was breathing. We were all, I

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Speaker 2: guess shocked by what was happening. And then I looked

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Speaker 2: up to see if Jesse was okay, and I saw

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Speaker 2: him just standing there, frozen in between the two cars,

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Speaker 2: looking as shocked basically as I felt. And the other

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Speaker 2: guy was running around the car with a gun in

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Speaker 2: his hand, ordering Jesse to put us into the police car.

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Speaker 2: At that point we became hostages of the man who

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Speaker 2: had just shot the two policemen.

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Speaker 3: Right now, it's more surreal. Right now, you're being ordered

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Speaker 3: to get into a police car by a guy who

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Speaker 3: just killed two policemen who you thought was your friend,

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Speaker 3: who was doing your favor giving you a ride. So

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Speaker 3: it doesn't get much weirder than that. And now you've

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Speaker 3: got to take the kids at gunpoint and put him

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Speaker 3: in a police car, that's right.

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Speaker 2: And as he helped me out of the car with

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Speaker 2: the baby and with my son Eric, Eric slipped and

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Speaker 2: fell into a pool of blood. Well, and that's when

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Speaker 2: I saw the two policemen on the ground. So helped

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Speaker 2: Eric up and we got We were put into the

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Speaker 2: back of the police car, Jesse again in the passenger side,

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Speaker 2: and the guy drove us away.

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Speaker 3: You know, if this was in a movie, nobody would

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Speaker 3: believe it, right so now you're in the police car.

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Speaker 3: What happens next?

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Speaker 2: I was thinking in my mind, okay, like, how do

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Speaker 2: we get away from the sky. He was racing down

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Speaker 2: the highway, and because it was on the interstate, then

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Speaker 2: he pulls off. He was looking for to change cars.

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Speaker 2: I guess he realized that the police car was a

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Speaker 2: little too conspicuous. So there was a man, an old fellow,

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Speaker 2: going out to get his mail, and the driver walked

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Speaker 2: up to him, and Jesse followed him. And I was

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Speaker 2: still in the back of the car with the kids,

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Speaker 2: and I thought, ah, now now I can get get

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Speaker 2: away from here, you know. So I tried to open

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Speaker 2: the doors, but you can't open the back of a

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Speaker 2: police car. Yeah, so we're stuck. Anyway, Jesse came back

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Speaker 2: and said, listen, he says, we have to go with

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Speaker 2: him in this man's car. So it takes us in

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Speaker 2: the transfers into what is now slightly less conspicuous in

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Speaker 2: a police car, a orange Cadillac.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's great. This guy's this guy's got a flair

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Speaker 3: for the dramatic.

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Speaker 2: So now this other poor man is also hostage. They

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Speaker 2: put me and the children in the front seat. Jesse

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Speaker 2: and the older man are in the back seat. He's

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Speaker 2: driving along and there's very heavy traffic by now.

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Speaker 3: Right, it's a rush hour.

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Speaker 2: It's rush hour, and I could hear helicopters above, and

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Speaker 2: I thought, oh my god, maybe the traffic is so

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Speaker 2: bad because maybe there's a roadblock or something, and maybe

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Speaker 2: that's a helicopter. And we're gonna be saved, right, You're

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Speaker 2: gonna be saved.

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Speaker 3: Right, the cops are gonna come get you. Great nightmare.

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Speaker 2: And what we didn't know at the time was that

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Speaker 2: when the man went out to get his mail, his

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Speaker 2: wife was watching out the window. Something shouldn't happen to

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Speaker 2: him from the building to the post box and back,

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Speaker 2: you know, and she saw whole thing, and she called

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Speaker 2: the police. So the police. So this means two things. One,

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Speaker 2: the police knew that this man had been kidnapped by

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Speaker 2: this other guy who had with the police car and

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Speaker 2: US number. Two, they knew that there was a woman,

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Speaker 2: two children, and a man hostage in that car.

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Speaker 3: In the orange Cadillac.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're driving along in the orange Cadilloc. I'm now

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Speaker 2: in the front with the two children. Jesse's in the

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Speaker 2: back with the old man, and we come upon the roadblock.

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Speaker 2: You can see it. There's a roadblock. Thank god, I'm

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Speaker 2: thinking he makes this insane decision to try to avoid

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Speaker 2: the roadblock, at which point he makes a sharp left

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Speaker 2: and all the police lined up at the roadblock with

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Speaker 2: their rifles open fire on the car. Holy shit, again,

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Speaker 2: we are being bomb guarded by bullets. I covered the

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Speaker 2: children again, and the car was bouncing with the bullets,

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Speaker 2: just like you know in the movie about Bonnie and Clyde,

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Speaker 2: where the car is actually bouncing with bullets. That's how

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Speaker 2: it was. And then we crashed. We crashed into a

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Speaker 2: semi that was parked as part of the roadblock. The

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Speaker 2: police surround the car. The only one who's actually injured

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Speaker 2: was the driver. He was shot in the leg.

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Speaker 3: That's a miracle, yes, yes, it's.

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Speaker 2: A miracle that we were all alive. So they took

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Speaker 2: him and put him in an ambulance. They took Jesse

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Speaker 2: out of the car. They handcuffed him. They took the

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Speaker 2: man out of the car, They took him away somewhere,

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Speaker 2: and Jesse's standing there, handcuffed and a cop comes from

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Speaker 2: the crowd with his gun turned around with the button

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Speaker 2: forward and ran over and smashed Jesse in the head

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Speaker 2: and knocked them to the ground, and he said, you

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Speaker 2: better get away from me because they're gonna kill me.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so you're holding his hand, you're holding the baby, Christina,

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Speaker 3: who's here. Now we can call you a miracle baby.

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Speaker 3: Now since you survived before you were a year old,

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Speaker 3: you survived two gun fights. I mean, it's quite extraordinary,

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Speaker 3: you know, very lucky. And she's a lovely, lovely young

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Speaker 3: woman if you'd meet her now, So go ahead. So

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Speaker 3: now what I mean even still, what are you thinking? Now?

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Speaker 3: Are you thinking because you your saviors are here the cops.

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Speaker 2: No, they're not saviors anymore, because they're pointing guns at me.

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Speaker 3: A minute ago they were, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden, the whole thing turned,

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Speaker 2: and now they're pointing guns at me.

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Speaker 3: And I.

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Speaker 2: Tried to explain that we didn't know. I didn't know,

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Speaker 2: like really what was going on, But they didn't. They

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Speaker 2: weren't listening because they were there. They had just had

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Speaker 2: two of their comrades at the time. I didn't know,

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Speaker 2: but they were killed. They were dead. We or one

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Speaker 2: of us or all of us, we respond and it

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Speaker 2: wasn't up to them to figure it out. It was

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Speaker 2: up to them to apprehend us, and so they take

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Speaker 2: us to an unused portion of the railroad track where

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Speaker 2: the police get out of their cars and start arguing

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Speaker 2: among themselves whether or not to take us in or

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Speaker 2: to simply kill us right there and say we tried

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Speaker 2: to escape. Wow, I couldn't tell you how many there were,

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Speaker 2: but there was a group of them, and I remember

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Speaker 2: there were three of them standing right by the car

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Speaker 2: where I was, and they were so vehement about it.

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Speaker 2: They were like, you know, like when you people are swaying,

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Speaker 2: they start spitting, you know, like I could see the

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Speaker 2: spit coming out in their molines when they were talking,

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Speaker 2: you know, And it was it was one of the

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Speaker 2: most frightening moments. And like I'm sitting there praying, like

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Speaker 2: I hope the one I call in my head the

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Speaker 2: voice of reason should prevail, which thing God Eventually he did,

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Speaker 2: because otherwise they were nobody would have known. So he

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Speaker 2: did prevail. They decided they would take us in. Two

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Speaker 2: detectives came in and they started trying to question me,

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Speaker 2: and they record. In those days, they had the you know,

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Speaker 2: the tape recorders with real tape, right, you know, and

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Speaker 2: so they kept trying to ask me what was what happened,

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Speaker 2: and I kept telling them.

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Speaker 4: I'm really I really don't know.

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Speaker 2: I really don't know exactly what happened, because just like

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Speaker 2: I told you, they were taking our id and asking

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Speaker 2: us questions and then they were shooting, and I honestly

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Speaker 2: didn't see who were shooting. So they didn't believe me

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Speaker 2: because they figure, if you're there, you know what happened.

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Speaker 2: So they every time I'd say, you know, you're trying

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Speaker 2: to get me to say something that's not true, they'd

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Speaker 2: stopped the recording and start a new recording. While we

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Speaker 2: were being interrogated, the guy, the driver, the guy who

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Speaker 2: actually did the killing, from his hospital bed, asked to

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Speaker 2: speak to the prosecutor. Now I was this is how

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Speaker 2: later I found this out. I didn't know. We didn't

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Speaker 2: know at the time, but you see, he knew he

264
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Speaker 2: was facing the electric chair, so he wanted to make

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Speaker 2: a deal, so he requested to speak to the prosecutor.

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Speaker 2: And the prosecutor at the time was apparently had ambitions

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Speaker 2: to run for district attorney, so rather than get one conviction,

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Speaker 2: he was going to get three convictions, and after our trials,

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Speaker 2: he did, in fact resign as prosecutor and run for

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Speaker 2: district attorney on the basis of his strong stance against crime.

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Speaker 2: So what happened was that the killer was offered a

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Speaker 2: plea bargain for three life sentences in exchange for his

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Speaker 2: testimony against Jesse and me. These plea bargains should not

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Speaker 2: be allowed in capital cases because it's always going to

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Speaker 2: be the most guilty party that takes the plea bargain

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Speaker 2: because they're the one who has the most to lose.

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Speaker 3: Well, they have everything to lose their life.

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Speaker 2: Well, I thought, yes, exactly, So I thought, well, when

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Speaker 2: I found out about it, I thought, well, this is

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Speaker 2: a no brainer. No innocent person would accept three life sentences.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's not a bargain, you know, not to

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Speaker 2: an innocent person. So I figured the jury will who this,

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Speaker 2: they'll know and we'll go home.

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Speaker 3: By the way, I never just did the concept of

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Speaker 3: three life senses. Does anyone have three lives? I don't

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Speaker 3: know why in this country. It's very odd, right, I'm

287
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Speaker 3: never like, I mean, anyway, it's very very odd. And

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Speaker 3: he eventually got out. But that's another story. So it's

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Speaker 3: even weird.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's another story. But he's also back in so

291
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Speaker 2: just so people shouldn't how do you.

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Speaker 3: Have three lifess why didn't you give the guy one

293
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Speaker 3: life sentence and keep them in instead of three life senses?

294
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Speaker 3: I don't know whatever. That's just another aspect of the case.

295
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Speaker 3: That's that's very strange and the system is very strange.

296
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Speaker 3: But anyway, so go ahead.

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Speaker 2: So this plea arrangement was made unbeknownst to us. And

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Speaker 2: also in order to justify giving the plea bargain, they

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Speaker 2: have to give the person a polygraph test to prove

300
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Speaker 2: that they're not making the deal with the real killer. Okay,

301
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Speaker 2: so apparently he was given a polygraph test and they

302
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Speaker 2: submitted a report that he passed a polygraph test. Therefore

303
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Speaker 2: they were justified in making the plea bargain. Jesse's trial

304
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Speaker 2: went first. He has tried, convicted, and sentenced to death

305
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Speaker 2: in four days. My trial lasts two weeks. We all

306
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Speaker 2: were appointed the public defender. But because now one was

307
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Speaker 2: going to testify against the others, they had to give

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Speaker 2: us special public defenders, which is regular lawyers who act

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Speaker 2: as who represent you as if they were the public defender,

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Speaker 2: and they don't get paid a lot, so they don't

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Speaker 2: always do a lot because they have other clients, they

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Speaker 2: have to make a living. So and my parents were asked, actually,

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Speaker 2: do you want to maybe get a hire a lawyer.

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Speaker 2: But we thought, why should they have to mortgage their

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Speaker 2: home to try to get me a lawyer, because we

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Speaker 2: were told even in those days, it'd be one hundred

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Speaker 2: thousand dollars or more. In those days, I was a

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Speaker 2: total fortune. So I said, there's no need to do that.

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Speaker 2: I'm completely innocent. I mean, it's not like there was

320
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Speaker 2: even a fingerprint, there's nothing. It was absolutely nothing against me.

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Speaker 2: So we didn't have the dream team and we didn't

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Speaker 2: have the expert witnesses or whatever. And my lawyer at

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Speaker 2: the time, the appointed lawyer, said, we're not going to

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Speaker 2: put up a defense because there's absolutely no nothing against you.

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Speaker 2: There's no evidence against you, and it gives me a

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Speaker 2: better position in the closing arguments. So I go, fine,

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Speaker 2: you know whatever you say, you're my lawyer. I'm not scared.

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Speaker 2: I didn't do anything. I still believed in truth, justice

329
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Speaker 2: in the American way, and Superman and all those things.

330
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Speaker 2: So in the second week of the trial, the jury

331
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Speaker 2: started asking questions. They weren't convinced by the killer, so

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Speaker 2: It turns out that the prosecutor or his team, whoever

333
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Speaker 2: it was, went and located a girl in the jail

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Speaker 2: who had been arrested for a minor drugs charge, and

335
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Speaker 2: she and her boyfriend were arrested, and they told her

336
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Speaker 2: that if she could help them to convict me, she

337
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,360
Speaker 2: and her boyfriend would released the next day. If they couldn't,

338
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Speaker 2: then she would go to prison for a long time,

339
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:42,440
Speaker 2: her life would be ruined, and she'd never get back

340
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Speaker 2: to university.

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Speaker 3: Jail House snitches are actually, you know. In the most

342
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Speaker 3: recent report from the Center for Ronful Convictions, it was

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Speaker 3: shown that in almost forty six percent of the capital

344
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Speaker 3: cases that have been overturned, forty five point nine percent,

345
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Speaker 3: a jail house snitch was the sort of deciding factor, right, so, well, she.

346
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Speaker 2: Said that I spoke to her in the one night

347
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 2: that they put her in the bit cell block where

348
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,320
Speaker 2: I was, and I never spoke to her that. She

349
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Speaker 2: said that I told her that I did it, I

350
00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,040
Speaker 2: enjoyed it, and I'd do it again. Like, all right,

351
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Speaker 2: somebody would really say that to a strange person, you know,

352
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,440
Speaker 2: I thought, now they're really going to know that this

353
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Speaker 2: is ridiculous. And the jury wasn't convinced, and in fact,

354
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Speaker 2: they asked more questions, and they were starting to ask

355
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Speaker 2: questions about like maybe could they at least consider accomplice

356
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Speaker 2: or something like that. And it was as a result

357
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Speaker 2: of the judge's instructions to the jury at that point

358
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Speaker 2: that they felt that they had no choice to convict,

359
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,200
Speaker 2: but to convict because we didn't put up a defense.

360
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,119
Speaker 2: And I should say that the judge had been a

361
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Speaker 2: former highway patrolman and we had asked him to recuse

362
00:20:55,560 --> 00:21:01,320
Speaker 2: himself from the cases because you couldn't possibly be non

363
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,440
Speaker 2: biased in a case that involved the killing a policeman

364
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 2: if you had been part of that brotherhood yourself. But

365
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Speaker 2: he refused to step down from the cases.

366
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Speaker 3: So it was worth noting that the judge judge had

367
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Speaker 3: a nickname which was Maximum Dan.

368
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:19,639
Speaker 2: Yes, and he kept a little miniature electric chair on

369
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Speaker 2: his desk that he used to do ZIZI.

370
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Speaker 3: You know, let's just reflect on that for a moment.

371
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Speaker 3: So you have a judge, this is America. You have

372
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Speaker 3: a judge who's a former state trooper presiding over a

373
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Speaker 3: trial in which a state trooper was he a state

374
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Speaker 3: trooper was killed. There's no reason to think that he

375
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Speaker 3: wouldn't be totally objective under those circumstances. And he's got

376
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Speaker 3: an electric chair on his desk going zoop zoop zoop,

377
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,880
Speaker 3: right touching it and like almost like taunting you, right,

378
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Speaker 3: And he's and his name was Maximum Dan.

379
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Speaker 2: So it was as a result though, of his explanation

380
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,879
Speaker 2: of the law to the jurors that they felt they

381
00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,879
Speaker 2: had no choice but to convict. Then comes the sentencing,

382
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 2: and in the sentencing phase they have to be unanimous

383
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,479
Speaker 2: in order to give a death sentence. Okay, And there

384
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 2: was one juror, and this is really important for people

385
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 2: to know because people think, oh, you know, one person

386
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 2: doesn't make a difference. One person does make a difference

387
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:21,439
Speaker 2: because this juror wasn't convinced. He wasn't really convinced that

388
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 2: they should have convicted me, but he surely wasn't going

389
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,959
Speaker 2: to sentence me to death. And so he stood up

390
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 2: for what he believed in the face of all the

391
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 2: pressure from the other jurors to agree with them, and

392
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:40,399
Speaker 2: as a result of his integrity that my jury wasn't

393
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 2: able to be unanimous and I was sentenced to life.

394
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Speaker 3: That's where the judge gets involved, right, And This principle

395
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 3: of judicial override is something I want to talk about

396
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 3: because this judge then overrode the jury right and he

397
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 3: decided that you should be sentenced to death right. And

398
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,680
Speaker 3: that's an interesting thing to talk about because there were

399
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 3: only three states in which this principle of judicial override

400
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 3: was constitution was considered constitutional. Now there's only one, and

401
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 3: it won't shock you to know that it's Alabama. Even

402
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,879
Speaker 3: Florida has had it overturned, as has Delaware, which was

403
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 3: the other holdout. So now only an Alabama can that happen, right,

404
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,880
Speaker 3: and judicial override has It's been an issue in about

405
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 3: a quarter of the death penalty cases since the death

406
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 3: penalty was re enacted in the seventies, and yet it's

407
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,880
Speaker 3: been a factor in fifty percent of the death sentences

408
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,919
Speaker 3: that have been overturned. So what that tells you is

409
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 3: that the jury is very focused on, or at least

410
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,199
Speaker 3: interested in the idea that they may be convicting, but

411
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 3: they may have enough of a shred of a doubt

412
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 3: that they don't want to sentence you the death and

413
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:54,399
Speaker 3: that finality. But the judge, for whatever reason, doesn't feel

414
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 3: the same compunction. And in your case, it's obvious why

415
00:23:58,160 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 3: he was a former state trooper and he was a

416
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,879
Speaker 3: who was a you know, a very he was maximum

417
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,159
Speaker 3: dan right, he was going to throw the death penalty

418
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 3: if he was going to throw it out of vegetarian

419
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 3: hippie like you. So anyway, so you're sentenced to death,

420
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 3: you end up on At this point, there is no

421
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 3: death row for women in Florida.

422
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 2: Right, No, no, because in nineteen seventy six there had

423
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 2: been a three year moratorium just prior to our cases,

424
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,120
Speaker 2: and they had changed all the death sentences to life.

425
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 2: So there were very few men on death row and

426
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 2: there were no women. So I became the only woman

427
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,479
Speaker 2: in the United States with a sentence of death at

428
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 2: that time.

429
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:37,719
Speaker 3: Wow.

430
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 2: And yeah, it is a sort of a distinction, I suppose.

431
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

432
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 2: And so they didn't actually know what they were going

433
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 2: to do with me, so everybody was kind of speculating

434
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 2: in the jail what they would do with me. And

435
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,679
Speaker 2: what they did is they cleared out a building that

436
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,439
Speaker 2: had been used for disciplinary purposes, like if there had

437
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 2: been a riot in the prisoner or whatever, and they

438
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 2: had to lock up a lot of people. That was

439
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 2: what that building had been used for. So there were

440
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 2: a number of cells on each side. It was like

441
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:10,239
Speaker 2: a dungeon there, Like I'll just say six, I'm not

442
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 2: really sure anymore. How there were six cells on each side,

443
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 2: and in the front there was an office where the

444
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 2: guards would stay, and the whole building was surrounded by

445
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 2: its own barbed wire fence. Within the barbed wire of

446
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 2: the prison itself. No other prisoners were allowed in proximity

447
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 2: of that building.

448
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,360
Speaker 3: So there you are all alone, right, There's nobody else

449
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 3: in there.

450
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 2: I was the only person in that building.

451
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 3: How insane is that?

452
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 2: When I was there, I was locked up twenty.

453
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 3: Four hours a day, twenty four hours a day in

454
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 3: a tiny cell, that's right.

455
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 2: It was six steps from the door to the toilet,

456
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 2: and I could reach out both my arms and touch

457
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 2: the side walls. There was a metal shelf with a

458
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 2: thin mattress that was my bed, and then there was

459
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,199
Speaker 2: a toilet and sink combination. That was all that was

460
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 2: in the cell. I spent the first five years of

461
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 2: the seventeen years that it took to resolve this in

462
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 2: solitary confinement, sence to death. After five years in solitary confinement,

463
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 2: finally my first appeal came up. It took that long

464
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 2: in those days, and as a result of the judge

465
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 2: overruling the jury without giving a proper written reason for

466
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 2: having done so, they had to change my sentence from

467
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 2: death to life. So then they put me in the

468
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 2: prison population, which was another strange circumstance to try to

469
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,479
Speaker 2: deal with after having been first a free person and

470
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,360
Speaker 2: then isolated for five years and then be put into

471
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 2: the prison population. So that was another thing. But then

472
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 2: after a year after my sentence was changed from death

473
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 2: to life, that's when my parents were killed at or

474
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 2: plane crash. The worst part was that my children then

475
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 2: became orphans again, and by then my daughter was about seven.

476
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: Six years old.

477
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 5: And you remember it, I do remember it very clearly.

478
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 3: I'm in awe of your mother. Do you watch that?

479
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 3: You do you listen to her and just say, I mean,

480
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 3: who is she's like? Does she have a cake that

481
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 3: she wears around at night?

482
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 2: That's you have to ask to kill everyone.

483
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 5: My mom is the most amazing person you'll ever meet.

484
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 3: She's my favorite. I mean, and then uh, and Peter,

485
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 3: we haven't even gotten to you yet.

486
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: She's also the funniest woman in the world.

487
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,880
Speaker 3: And so sunny. So then yes, a number.

488
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 2: Of things happened in the interim. At one point, the

489
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 2: guy who actually did the killing was bragging in prison

490
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 2: about how he had killed the two officers, and you know,

491
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 2: he had these other two people and death throw for

492
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 2: what he'd done. He confessed a number of times, and

493
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 2: on one occasion some other prisoners came forward and actually,

494
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 2: we're willing to go to court and testify, but the

495
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 2: judge ruled that it was prisoner's word wasn't believable. So

496
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 2: how come it's believable if they testify against you, but

497
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 2: it's not believable if they testify for you, because it's

498
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 2: incons why, you know. So we didn't prevail. And when

499
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 2: that happened, Jesse was like, this is it, babe, We're

500
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: going home. You know I told you keep your spirits up.

501
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 2: He was always trying to.

502
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 3: Keep my spirits up to letters. Yes, so you knew

503
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 3: that the real killer had been bragging and it essentially confessed. Yeah,

504
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 3: so you're like, now we're going home. I mean obviously right.

505
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 2: But we didn't go home.

506
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 3: They didn't go home. In fact, quite the opposite, and.

507
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 2: It was at that hearing that they brought us both

508
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 2: to court. That's the last time I ever saw Jesse

509
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 2: actually in person. I always advise people, if you're going

510
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 2: to have to go into the appeals process, to get

511
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 2: a very young lawyer, because my original appeals lawyer died

512
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 2: of a heart attack before the appeals process could be completed,

513
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 2: because it takes so many years. As you know, people

514
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 2: spent twenty thirty years on death row before they're exonerated.

515
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 3: A young lawyer who would think of that except for

516
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 3: you anyway.

517
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 2: So anyway, these were two young lawyers who were mentoring

518
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 2: under him, and they both decided they would continue to

519
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 2: fight for my case because they believed in my innocence.

520
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 2: Thank god. In the eleventh year, these two young lawyers

521
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 2: who paired up and then eventually married, give me the

522
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 2: use of a private investigator from some other CALLI in

523
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 2: who it paid for it for one day, and I

524
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 2: want to find the woman, the young woman who testified

525
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 2: against me in the trial, right, the one that we

526
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:07,479
Speaker 2: called the jail house snitch. So they said, forget about it.

527
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 2: She's a drug addict. She's probably dead, but she wasn't

528
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 2: because after this happened, she cleaned up her life and

529
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 2: she never looked back, and she moved to Wyoming somewhere,

530
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 2: and she was taking care of her sick father, and

531
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,959
Speaker 2: she had a little family of her own, and she

532
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 2: had no idea what happened to me. She didn't even know.

533
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 2: So the lawyer, the investigative founder, the lawyer's going they

534
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 2: see her, and she cried and she apologized. She was

535
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 2: devastated to find out that what at least partly as

536
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 2: a result of what she had done, had happened to me.

537
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 2: But she would do anything except come back to Florida.

538
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 3: And there's a reason why she wanted to come back to.

539
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 2: Her Yeah, because she was scared to death because the

540
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 2: prosecutor was now a district attorney, even more powerful, and

541
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 2: she was afraid that he would find a way to

542
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: put her in prison too, maybe for perjury that he

543
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 2: helped her do. So she was terrified. And unless she

544
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: was willing to come back to testify and be cross examined,

545
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 2: we couldn't use her testimony, right, So the prosecutor sent

546
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 2: a couple of his guys out to Wyoming to talk

547
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 2: to her father, to have him convince his daughter that

548
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 2: she shouldn't come back and.

549
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 3: Get involved her sick father.

550
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 2: Yes, and that's what made her come back. She got

551
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 2: so mad that they would dare to disturb her sick

552
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 2: father that she came back, and she is a hero.

553
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 2: She's heroic. We had a federal hearing. She testified, She

554
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 2: took the stand, she told everything that happened. She sat

555
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 2: there and apologized to me. She cried. Then it was

556
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 2: the prosecutor's turn to cross examined. As he approached the

557
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: bench where she said, she grabbed her chest, she started

558
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 2: a hyperale and she had a heart attack. And honestly,

559
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 2: all I can think of at that moment was please God,

560
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 2: don't let her die before a cross examination. Please, because

561
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 2: unless we could cross examine, you can't use her testimony.

562
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 2: Everything she said would have been for nothing. Oh my god.

563
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 2: So anyway, the medical person came in, they brought the paramedics.

564
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 2: They took her away in an ambulance, and we didn't

565
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 2: know what was going to happen. Finally she recovered. She

566
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 2: went back to Wyoming, and the judge said that we

567
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 2: could videotape her testimony from Wyoming. So they all went

568
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 2: out there and they did the cross examination whatever, and

569
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 2: in the end, the judge ruled that it was her

570
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 2: word former drug addict against the word of the upstanding citizen,

571
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 2: the prosecutor, and we didn't prevail again.

572
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 3: So meanwhile, was this before or after Jesse was executed?

573
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 2: That was in the eleventh year.

574
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 3: Right, so he was still alive.

575
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 2: Yes, In the fifteenth year incarceration, Jesse received his third

576
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 2: death warrant, which is normally fatal, and in his case

577
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 2: it was as well, and he was taken to the

578
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 2: electric chair, right.

579
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,959
Speaker 3: And then it gets worse because in Jesse's case, and

580
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 3: people may remember this because it's a very well documented

581
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 3: and famous tragic situation. So in Jesse's case, he went

582
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 3: to the electric chair, but the electric chair malfunctioned. It

583
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 3: was known as old sparky, right, so it wasn't exactly

584
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 3: a modern piece of equipment by prisoners by prisoners, and

585
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 3: there's at least a theory going around that they may

586
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 3: have deliberately tampered with it in order to make his

587
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 3: execution more they were like a torture, yes, because he

588
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 3: had of course been convicted of killing two police officers.

589
00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 3: So in his case, the electric air malfunctioned, it took

590
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 3: over ten minutes for him to die.

591
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 2: It took thirteen and a half minutes for Jesse to

592
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 2: Pharaoh to die, and the word was in the prison

593
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 2: that they had substituted the natural sea sponge in the

594
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 2: helmet with an artificial one so that when they pulled

595
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 2: the switch, instead of dying, instead of conducting the current properly.

596
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,479
Speaker 3: He caught fire. Fire.

597
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 2: The witnesses on behalf of the media said that the

598
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 2: flame shot two feet in the air out of his head,

599
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 2: and that smoke came out of his ears, and then

600
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 2: it took thirteen and a half minutes for Jesse to

601
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 2: Farah to die.

602
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 3: And we shouldn't have a death penalty in this country

603
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:45,919
Speaker 3: in my opinion at all. I don't think the death

604
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 3: penalty should exist in any country because if you believe

605
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 3: in the death penalty, you have to be willing to

606
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 3: accept the idea that people like Jesse to Fara are

607
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,879
Speaker 3: going to be executed. There is no perfect system, there

608
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 3: is no way to make sure you've got it right.

609
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 3: There's always going to be human error. You can't get

610
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,760
Speaker 3: that back. So Jesse's actually.

611
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:10,359
Speaker 2: Can't give him back to his children either.

612
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 3: No, you can't give him back to his children. I mean,

613
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 3: and Christina, I mean, I can't even It's hard for

614
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 3: me to even bring myself to ask you what you

615
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 3: experienced during this period of time. I mean, were you

616
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 3: aware that your parents were innocent?

617
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 5: How No, I wasn't aware they were innocent, but I

618
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 5: mean I didn't. I didn't believe it either. Now I've

619
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 5: blacked out a lot from it, just as a coping

620
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 5: mechanism for myself. Not blacked out. I remember a lot

621
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 5: of things. I don't really honestly remember what I thought.

622
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 5: I just knew that they were gone, and you know,

623
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 5: my mom was always telling me, you know, I'm coming

624
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 5: home home, you know, coming home soon. You know, I

625
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 5: just wanted them back. I don't think I cared. I

626
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 5: don't think I cared. I just wanted my parents back.

627
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 5: It's funny because the day they killed my father, I

628
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 5: had two friends with me and I saw them both

629
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 5: yesterday after like twenty years. Both of them we were children,

630
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 5: and I'll never forget that morning because I wanted to

631
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,280
Speaker 5: go to school. I didn't want to be home sinking

632
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 5: in the news and my parents are watching it. It's on.

633
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 5: I'm fifteen now, and my two friends, Sarah and Marvin

634
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 5: were on my bus with me, but I was the

635
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 5: first one on the bus, and when I got on

636
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 5: the bus. The bus driver was actually listening to it

637
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 5: on the radio and I could hear it as she

638
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 5: didn't know. And the next stop.

639
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 3: The bus driver didn't know.

640
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 5: The bus driver didn't know that was my father, right,

641
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 5: So the next stop was my friend Sarah, and I'm

642
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 5: just sitting stoic on the bus. I probably was crying.

643
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 3: Sarah knew.

644
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 5: Sarah knew what was happening, and she came and she

645
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 5: just got on the bus and sat on one side

646
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 5: of me and put her arm around me. We didn't

647
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 5: say a word. Then my friend Marvin, who's an NYPD

648
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 5: officer here by the way, but he was now but

649
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 5: we were kids, then got on the bus and he

650
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 5: sat on my other side and just put his arm

651
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 5: around me, and they held me in love the entire

652
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 5: way to school, and they knew what was happening. And

653
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 5: I didn't end up staying in school because I had

654
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 5: an issue while I was at school and I got

655
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 5: sent home, which I should have been home anyway, but.

656
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 2: I didn't know.

657
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,320
Speaker 5: I didn't know about the malfunction of the chair, and

658
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 5: I act he found out walking through the mall. I

659
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 5: think it was the next day through a friend of

660
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,879
Speaker 5: mine who was like, you know, I'm really sorry about

661
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 5: your dad, and I'm like thanks, you know. He's like,

662
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 5: it's terrible what happened, and I'm like it is and

663
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 5: he goes, no, but how his head caught fire? And

664
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 5: I had I didn't know. Nobody told me and I

665
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 5: wasn't watching TV. I wasn't I was trying not to

666
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 5: pay attention to it, to tell you the truth, And

667
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 5: that's how I found out. And I was angry, to

668
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 5: say the least, that nobody told me. And I'm hearing

669
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,439
Speaker 5: it from not a stranger, but not somebody I should

670
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 5: be hearing that from either. And it was really hard.

671
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 5: I had seen my dad was it just a few

672
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 5: days before, right, And it was a really hard visit,

673
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 5: knowing what was going to happen to him, really emotional

674
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 5: visiting my grandmother, my grandma Kay, his mother. Somehow fenagled

675
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 5: me to get an actual contact visit because it was

676
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 5: my only visit with my father behind glass and it

677
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 5: was always contact visits, So knowing it's the last time

678
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 5: I'm going to see him, I really wanted to sit

679
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 5: on his lap. I wanted to give him a hug.

680
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 5: I wanted to kiss his face, you know, and somehow

681
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 5: she finagled it. But they did have to strip search me,

682
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 5: which was weird because I'm a kid, but I didn't care.

683
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 5: I just wanted to be with my dad.

684
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 3: So but.

685
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 5: I will never forget that day. Yeah, insane, and I

686
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,359
Speaker 5: you know, I don't know what to say about it,

687
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:45,320
Speaker 5: but it was very, very, very hard because I'm connected

688
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 5: with my father, I'm connected with my mother on a

689
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 5: different level. I can feel them, I can, you know.

690
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 5: So I knew he was gone his you know, and

691
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 5: then knowing what happened to him made it even harder.

692
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 5: And not being told immediately too, It's like wow. And

693
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 5: then you have everyone you know feeling sad for you

694
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 5: and makes it worse, you know. And then I got

695
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 5: sent away to school. I got sent away to boarding school,

696
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 5: like about six months later, eight months later.

697
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 2: See, there's no help for the families of people who

698
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 2: are on death row. There's no help at all.

699
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 3: I can't even talk.

700
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 2: Well, I'll help you out here, you know, it was

701
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 2: it's no one knows what to do. There's there's actually

702
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,959
Speaker 2: no help for the families. I mean, when at very

703
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 2: least when somebody's being executed, there should be somebody for

704
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 2: their family, and there isn't. So at first I was

705
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 2: very upset and angry at the foster parents who are

706
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 2: taking care of Tina, to know that instead of keeping

707
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 2: her there and loving her and giving her that family

708
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 2: support and letting her be perhaps with me and Grandma Kay,

709
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 2: you know, so we could grieve together, she was sent away.

710
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 2: But to be fair, I understand now they didn't know

711
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 2: what the heck to do. What do you do with

712
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,720
Speaker 2: this child? How do you deal with this? And it's shame,

713
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 2: the shame of it. So they sent her away to

714
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 2: a school for children with emotional behavioral problems and she

715
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 2: was locked up until she was eighteen years old. So

716
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 2: now she's locked up too. And yeah, and in a

717
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 2: strange way, it gave us a commonality, you know, like, yeah,

718
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 2: I understand what it's like to be locked up, ma,

719
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 2: because I was locked up too. So the suffering of

720
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 2: these wrongful convictions isn't confined to the one person. It's

721
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:59,280
Speaker 2: their whole family that suffers. And the people whose children

722
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 2: have family to go to that you know, they can

723
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 2: stay with you much better than the people whose children

724
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 2: don't have family to stay with and end up in

725
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 2: foster care because they just they just don't have a chance.

726
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 3: The stigma on top of everything else, because for a

727
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 3: little Christina, you know, to be getting that sympathy is

728
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 3: sort of nice. But even that's got to be complicated

729
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 3: because your friends didn't know if your father was a

730
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 3: cop killer or not. Right, you didn't even know, right.

731
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 5: And could you grew up in a neighborhood like it was,

732
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 5: upper middle class neighborhoods, So there's a lot of maybe

733
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 5: keeping up with the Joneses, if I can say that.

734
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 5: And you know, the people I was with, you know,

735
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 5: they don't want everybody to know my story because again,

736
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 5: you know, people are going to judge. You know, oh

737
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 5: my gosh, you have this child in your house, you know,

738
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 5: so you know, and I just showed up out of

739
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 5: nowhere and all of a sudden, you know, I'm part

740
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 5: of their family and I have brother, and so it's

741
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:05,280
Speaker 5: like it's complicated. It's really really complicated. And yes, I would.

742
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 5: I would go to visit my parents, and I would

743
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 5: I would come back to school, and obviously I would

744
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 5: have not mental issues, but I would have emotional issues

745
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 5: going on. I'm just you know, I go, I take

746
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 5: you know, a week out of school and I'm going

747
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 5: from prison to prison, and I'm getting sick. I have

748
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 5: double ear infections. You know, I'm on a boss to

749
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 5: Dad's was what like seven hours up to Dad's prison.

750
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 5: You know, I would fly by myself, and it was

751
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 5: very hard as a as a child. And again I

752
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 5: don't remember a lot of it, but I do remember

753
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 5: having a little trouble in school when i'd come back

754
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 5: and there was an adjustment again. And you know, I

755
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 5: just visited both my parents in prison and like that

756
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 5: to the.

757
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 2: Point where apparently it felt it was just too disruptive

758
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 2: to their lives to keep bringing her, and they stopped.

759
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 2: So then finally, just after Jesse's execution, a friend of mine,

760
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:24,399
Speaker 2: a childhood friend, her name is Mickey Diakov. She came

761
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 2: to visit me because she wanted to console me over

762
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 2: what had happened. I mean, the whole country, the whole

763
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 2: world heard what happened to Jesse. In fact, they stopped

764
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 2: using the electric chair in Florida as a result of

765
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: Jesse's execution.

766
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 3: For us. Yeah, I was fifteen and living in New

767
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 3: York and I heard about it, so, you know, two

768
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 3: thousand miles away.

769
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh, people over the world heard about it, and

770
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 2: Jesse said, they will remember my name. That was one

771
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 2: of the last things he said. We had a ten

772
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 2: minute phone call just before he was executed, just maybe

773
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 2: a few hours before.

774
00:44:57,880 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 3: Do you remember the last thing he said to you?

775
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 5: He said, to be brave? Yeah, and you are and

776
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 5: I am.

777
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 3: I think if he could see you now, he would

778
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 3: be extremely proud.

779
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 5: He can see me now.

780
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 3: Good answer.

781
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 2: So Mickey came to visit me, and she said, what

782
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 2: can I do to help you? Because we were kids

783
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 2: growing up on Long Island together, and I was like

784
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 2: the most least likely person in the whole world to

785
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 2: ever be in any way involved in something like this,

786
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 2: and everybody that knew we knew that. So she said,

787
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 2: what can I do? And can I talk to a lawyer?

788
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 2: Because she's a documentary filmmaker and she has research skills,

789
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 2: and her partner is a civil lawyer, but still a

790
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 2: lawyer that knows about how the law works, and they

791
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 2: wanted to help me. So I said, sure, go talk

792
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:06,840
Speaker 2: to my lawyer. Fine, you know. So they did, and

793
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 2: as a result of that, about two and a half

794
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 2: years after Jesse was executed, they were able to put

795
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 2: together my Habeas Corpus in a way with diagrams, which

796
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 2: they had to get special permissions, first time they ever

797
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,359
Speaker 2: used diagrams and a habeas corpus, and they were able

798
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 2: to clearly show what we had been trying to show

799
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 2: for years is that I couldn't and Jesse couldn't possibly

800
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 2: have committed this crime, and my sentence and conviction were

801
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 2: overturned and I should have been free. But as you know,

802
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 2: they don't like to admit they're wrong exactly, so they

803
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 2: threatened to take me to a new trial. And in

804
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 2: those days it was just just I think I was

805
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 2: the second person after Alfred that they did this. The

806
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 2: Alford is a thing where they say, if you let

807
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:10,240
Speaker 2: us convict you of a lesser to charge, you don't

808
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 2: have to plead guilty. You can maintain your innocence and

809
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 2: then you can leave. You can be free. But if not,

810
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 2: we're going to take you back to a new trial.

811
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 2: It could take years, we might sentence you to death again.

812
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 2: And now they're more desperate than before because now it's

813
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 2: going to show all the illegal things that they did,

814
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 2: so they're really going to be desperate. We already knew

815
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 2: that they had another false witness already lined up to

816
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 2: come to the new trial. I even heard that she

817
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 2: was promised a white couch for her living room in

818
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:48,360
Speaker 2: exchange for her testimony. A white couch.

819
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 6: This is nice.

820
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 3: You've got orange cadillacs and white couches. I mean, this

821
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:54,439
Speaker 3: story is yeah.

822
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, Nicky and Christy, my friends who

823
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 2: were helping me at the time, to help without helping

824
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 2: working with my lawyers, they were warned that it was

825
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 2: dangerous to even try to help, and that they were

826
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 2: being followed and that their phones were being tapped. Everyone

827
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 2: was so afraid because of the power. You know, a

828
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 2: person in that position has a lot of power.

829
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 3: And they have almost all the power.

830
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 2: Actually, yes, it's you know, it's interesting how it works

831
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:39,360
Speaker 2: because when someone is accused of crime, the police gathered

832
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,879
Speaker 2: all the evidence, they give it over to the prosecutor.

833
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 2: The prosecutor then decides which parts he's going to give

834
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 2: to the defense and which parts he doesn't have to

835
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 2: buy law gift to the defense to the defense, and

836
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 2: then they have the trials. So it's like we have

837
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,359
Speaker 2: a deck of cards, fifty two cards. I have all

838
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,280
Speaker 2: the cards. I'm gonna look at them. I'm gonna decide

839
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:04,879
Speaker 2: which one is I'm gonna give you and now we're

840
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 2: gonna play. You're gonna play with me? Of course not,

841
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 2: because the deck is totally stacked. I decide which cards

842
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:13,240
Speaker 2: you can have. I'm not giving you all the aces

843
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 2: I can tell you. So that's how that's how it works.

844
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 2: It's it's really not fair to put another human being

845
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:26,320
Speaker 2: in that position, because look, we're all subject to human nature. Okay,

846
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 2: everybody wants to win, everybody wants to be the best.

847
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 2: And if there's nobody ever gonna know, come on, you know,

848
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 2: nobody's ever gonna know that you hid that one card.

849
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 2: We have a situation where there's these hearings going on.

850
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 2: I am now offered a deal they offered to me.

851
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:46,839
Speaker 2: This is before the offer please thing comes up. They

852
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 2: offered to me. They say, okay, we're having these hearings.

853
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 2: So exactly this is interesting what happened to hearings. First

854
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 2: of all, in the hearings, we find out about the

855
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:02,800
Speaker 2: fact that, uh, there was a polygraph test. Now, Micky says,

856
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 2: why should we believe them they lied about so much.

857
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 2: We want to see this polygraph test, the actual graph

858
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 2: that came off the machine. Right, So they get a

859
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:18,359
Speaker 2: hold of the poly test, and they hire a guy

860
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,280
Speaker 2: who is a former policeman who's now a polygraph expert,

861
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:23,800
Speaker 2: and he takes a look at it and he says

862
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 2: he didn't pass the polygraph test. He failed a polygraph

863
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 2: test where it said he passed, he actually failed. So

864
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:34,800
Speaker 2: the report that they entered saying he passed a polygraph

865
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 2: test was a lie. They entered a false report, and

866
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 2: that was the basis of their arrangement with him in

867
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 2: the first place. That day, they come to me and

868
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 2: they say, okay, we're going to offer you a deal.

869
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 2: If you'll say that the guy they made the deal

870
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 2: with didn't do it, I didn't do it, we'll let

871
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 2: you go free today. You can have a steak dinner today.

872
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 2: Excuse me, I'm a vegetarian. What were they trying to say?

873
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 2: If I didn't do it and the other guy didn't

874
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 2: do it, then who did it?

875
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 3: Your husband?

876
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 2: They figure will blame Jesse. He's dead anyway, right and we.

877
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:22,360
Speaker 3: All go out and everybody's fine.

878
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 2: But I'm not doing that. Okay. First of all, he

879
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:30,240
Speaker 2: still has children and a mother. Second of all, they

880
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 2: took everything from me. They took my whole life from me.

881
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 2: They took everything from but my integrity, and it was

882
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 2: like I felt like I was. It was like dealing

883
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:46,239
Speaker 2: with the devil. Now they wanted that last thing. They

884
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:49,880
Speaker 2: wanted my very soul, and I wasn't gonna do it

885
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 2: because I had made a life for myself in prison.

886
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:58,839
Speaker 2: We started a little community group to try to make

887
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 2: life better for the life. First, I was teaching math

888
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 2: and English in the school. I was teaching yoga because

889
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 2: yoga and meditation and prayer was what saved me while

890
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:15,919
Speaker 2: I was on death row. There was not enough time

891
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 2: to tell everything, but it was my practice of yoga

892
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,759
Speaker 2: that helped me with the physical effects of all the emotions,

893
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 2: and meditation that helped me to clear myself spiritually, and

894
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 2: prayer which gave me the hope that there was something

895
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 2: out there stronger than them that could see me through.

896
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 2: And so I had made a life for myself in there.

897
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 2: I could hold my head up and say, you know what,

898
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 2: at least I have integrity, Whereas if I were to

899
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 2: do that, no matter where you are, you have to

900
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:55,880
Speaker 2: live with yourself. So I said, I'm sorry, I don't

901
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:59,360
Speaker 2: need steak, Thank you very much. Take me back to prison.

902
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:01,319
Speaker 3: They were dealing with so I.

903
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 2: Said, take me back, and they did. They took me back.

904
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 2: Things went on usual. I went back to my job

905
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 2: in the prison whatever. And then uh, a week or

906
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:20,359
Speaker 2: so later, I got called back on a Friday. Now

907
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 2: you get called back to court on a Friday. They

908
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:25,879
Speaker 2: know that everybody's sure you're going home because they don't

909
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 2: want to keep you in the county over the weekend.

910
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 2: So everybody lined, they lined the walkways. They were like,

911
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:39,359
Speaker 2: you're going home. You're going home. Oh, They're all pat

912
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:41,360
Speaker 2: me on the back, sailor to your children. You know,

913
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 2: you're going home. They took me back to court and

914
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:47,800
Speaker 2: I was like praying, and I was like I could

915
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 2: almost feel my parents and Jessie around me, you know,

916
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 2: in the van because you're you know, you've got your

917
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 2: hands handcuffed with the box, you know, so you can't

918
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:58,840
Speaker 2: and your feet handcuffed and everything fit, feet coughed. I

919
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:02,480
Speaker 2: guess you'd call it. And they took me back to

920
00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:09,240
Speaker 2: court and my lawyers say to me, Okay, they're offering

921
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 2: you this deal. Another deal. Yeah, this time they say

922
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:19,960
Speaker 2: that if you'll just allow them to read into the record,

923
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 2: you know, a conviction of a lested degree. You don't

924
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:27,319
Speaker 2: have to plead guilty, and you can go home.

925
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 3: You don't have to implicate Jesse.

926
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 2: No, and you can go home, and you have ten minutes.

927
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 2: And I sat there and I thought, well, you know,

928
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:43,840
Speaker 2: when I went into prison when this happened, I was

929
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 2: twenty seven years old. By the time I was sitting

930
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 2: there trying to make this decision, I was forty five

931
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:53,279
Speaker 2: years old. When I went in. I was a young

932
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:56,000
Speaker 2: mother and a wife and a daughter. And at that

933
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:59,320
Speaker 2: point in my life when I had to make this decision,

934
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:04,040
Speaker 2: I was a widow and an orphan and a grandmother

935
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 2: because my son Eric by then had a three and

936
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 2: a half year old daughter of his own. And I thought,

937
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:16,279
Speaker 2: you know, you never know what will happen in the

938
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 2: next few years, if they're going to take me to

939
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:20,399
Speaker 2: a trial again, and how long that's going to take,

940
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 2: and whatever the outcome would be, what.

941
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 3: They were capable of by this point, I mean, you

942
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 3: made the right decision.

943
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 2: And so I told them that I would accept on

944
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 2: the condition that I was not going to plead guilty

945
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:37,239
Speaker 2: to anything, that I would maintain my innocence, and they

946
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 2: said that was okay, but that during the hearing I

947
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 2: had to keep absolutely silent. I was not allowed to

948
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 2: say anything. That was the deal. I was not allowed

949
00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:52,359
Speaker 2: to say anything during this next hearing. So okay, thiss

950
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:58,359
Speaker 2: hilarious by the way, she knows so because I can't

951
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 2: keep my mouth if she can't. And the judges, uh.

952
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 2: You see what happens at one of these alpha and

953
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 2: hearing things is that the prosecutor is allowed to read

954
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 2: into the record everything he would have said against you

955
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 2: had there been a new trial, and you're not allowed

956
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 2: to say anything too refute what do you say? Which

957
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 2: is a bunch of crap.

958
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 4: So I'm sitting there listening to this litany just ridiculous stuff,

959
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:30,719
Speaker 4: in my opinion, and I'm trying to think what can

960
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 4: I say.

961
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,279
Speaker 2: There's gotta be something I can get away with saying. Here,

962
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 2: So I go, you run her, and my lawyer pinches me.

963
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 2: She's pinching me, and he goes, yes, I said I'd

964
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:44,760
Speaker 2: like a drink of water. I have a bad taste

965
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:51,800
Speaker 2: in my mouth. Wow, Bailiff, get a drink of water.

966
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:56,680
Speaker 2: I get my water. And holl is dying. So at

967
00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:01,720
Speaker 2: least I said something to say something, to say something.

968
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 3: I wasn't sure there was anything that could make me

969
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 3: love you more than I already do. That's it. That's

970
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:10,400
Speaker 3: one of the that's one of the best one liners

971
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:13,359
Speaker 3: in the history of the world. So congratulations on that

972
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 3: you got the last word at court right, so to speak,

973
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 3: because you managed to give them a very sunnyish sort

974
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 3: of middle finger to the entire system, and you were freed.

975
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:27,439
Speaker 3: And now I want to talk about your life now

976
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:33,440
Speaker 3: because it's extraordinary. Everything about you is extraordinary, But the

977
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 3: crazy twist that life took several years ago is really

978
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:42,919
Speaker 3: the subject that I want to turn to now.

979
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:44,919
Speaker 2: It's my favorite part.

980
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 3: So it's one of my favorite parts too.

981
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 2: So so what happened is I took time off to

982
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 2: get a life for myself and to get a persona

983
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 2: other than the victim of injustice, and I became Sonny

984
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 2: the yoga teacher, the happy pink dot floatner. I used

985
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:03,680
Speaker 2: to wear pink all the time because in prison you

986
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 2: couldn't wear nice color. So I had this pink sweatpants

987
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 2: and pink sweatshirt and I used to run around being

988
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:15,280
Speaker 2: the yoga teacher all over Los Angeles until finally I

989
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,360
Speaker 2: went back into the death penalty movement again and I

990
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 2: met some representatives of Mnescy International from Ireland, and they

991
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 2: heard me talk and invited me to Ireland to speak.

992
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 3: And this is where the story gets good ending, Yes,

993
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:33,640
Speaker 3: the happy ending.

994
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 1: She I got this phone call one day and.

995
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:40,480
Speaker 6: American woman who said her name was Sunny Jacobs and

996
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 6: whom I'd never heard of, and said she was going

997
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 6: to be given a talk three days later where I

998
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 6: was in the town I was in, and invited.

999
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 1: Me to come along.

1000
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 6: I said, what are you going to talk about? She

1001
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 6: said that dead penalty. I said, yes, I'm interested in that.

1002
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 6: I'll come along, and I brought two friends and so

1003
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 6: I went along and the door opened across the room

1004
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:00,760
Speaker 6: and this little lady walked in and I walked over.

1005
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 1: To her and I said, you must be Sonny Jacobs

1006
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 1: and she said.

1007
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 2: To me, well, you must be Peter Bringle, and.

1008
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 6: She gave me this big smile which she has. So

1009
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:13,360
Speaker 6: she went to share her story and I listened, and

1010
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 6: I was devastated by.

1011
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 3: What I heard.

1012
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 1: I was hugely emotionally.

1013
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 6: Upset by the tragedy of what had happened to her.

1014
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 6: And I knew that I had to talk to her.

1015
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:26,200
Speaker 6: I just knew I had to speak with her. This

1016
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 6: was somebody who would understand my situation just as I

1017
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 6: understood hers. And so afterwards I said, I'd like to

1018
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 6: talk with you and she said, yes, so Di, she said,

1019
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 6: but I'm leaving in an hour.

1020
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 1: I said, where are you going? She said, we have

1021
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 1: to go to Cork.

1022
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:43,960
Speaker 6: She was traveling around the country with the Secretary of

1023
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:49,440
Speaker 6: Amnesty Ireland, Mary Lawler, and she had to be in

1024
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:53,400
Speaker 6: Cork the following evening for the agm of Amnesty. That's

1025
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 6: about five hours away from where we were. So I

1026
00:59:57,920 --> 00:59:59,600
Speaker 6: said to her, well, if you stay over and I

1027
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:01,960
Speaker 6: here Galway, I guarantee I'll get you there in time

1028
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:05,040
Speaker 6: for your meeting. And so we did, and I took

1029
01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 6: her down to the countryside. She showed her all the sights,

1030
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 6: and we got the Cork and she did her talk.

1031
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:13,479
Speaker 6: When we were crossing the river, Shannon and the car

1032
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:16,320
Speaker 6: ferry and Chris, our friend, had given us a.

1033
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 1: Pack lunch and he was a vegetarian, of.

1034
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 6: Both vegetarians at the time, and so we had his

1035
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 6: pack lunch and Sonny turned to me and she said,

1036
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 6: what's your interest in all of this? I said to well, well,

1037
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:29,920
Speaker 6: I was wrongly convicted and sentenced that too. I spent

1038
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:31,480
Speaker 6: almost fifteen years in prison.

1039
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:32,360
Speaker 3: Did you believe him?

1040
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe.

1041
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, she said, oh, she said, we just seem to

1042
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:36,960
Speaker 1: have come out of it. Okay.

1043
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:39,360
Speaker 6: She said, how did you get through? And I said, well,

1044
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:43,000
Speaker 6: yoga and meditation Jesus, and that's what she had used

1045
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 6: as well. And I said that to her. She just

1046
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 6: lit up and she said, oh my god, the yoga meditation.

1047
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 6: So then when we were driving down after that from

1048
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:52,480
Speaker 6: the car ferry down to the Cork, we were sharing

1049
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 6: our story with each other.

1050
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 1: It was the most.

1051
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 6: Amazing journey I've ever had in my life because we

1052
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:02,360
Speaker 6: were at various stages. We were laughing our heads off,

1053
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 6: we were crying our eyes out. It was a hugely

1054
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 6: emotional trift the hallway down the road as we shared

1055
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:11,560
Speaker 6: things with each other and we see each other goodbye,

1056
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:13,800
Speaker 6: we said we keep in touch, and we did, and

1057
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:15,600
Speaker 6: so our relationship.

1058
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 3: Developed and now, truly what is can only be considered

1059
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:24,040
Speaker 3: a full circle a current. Sonny and Peter now run

1060
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 3: a thing called the Sunny Sanctuary, and the Sunny Sanctuary

1061
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:31,000
Speaker 3: is a truly a sunny sanctuary, although it's not that

1062
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:33,960
Speaker 3: much sun in Ireland, but it's a Sanctuary, share of it,

1063
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:36,360
Speaker 3: you get our share. Yeah, it's everyone thinks it rains

1064
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 3: all the time, but it doesn't. It doesn't. So and

1065
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:41,320
Speaker 3: you have a lot of nice golf courses over there.

1066
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 3: So Sunny and Peter run the Sunny Sanctuary where they

1067
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:50,920
Speaker 3: have found an extraordinary way of sharing their experience and

1068
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:56,880
Speaker 3: creating a positive outcome from all this negative which is

1069
01:01:56,880 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 3: a weak word to use for what's gone on in

1070
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:02,840
Speaker 3: your lives. And now they now bring newly exonerated people

1071
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:07,280
Speaker 3: over to stay with them, and they're able to share

1072
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 3: their experiences and learn anything from yoga to farming to

1073
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:15,040
Speaker 3: just being How do people they want to give to

1074
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 3: the Sunny Sanctuary? How do people? Is there? What's the website?

1075
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:21,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a website. It's called the Sunny Center, the

1076
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 2: Sunny Center.

1077
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 3: That's s U n n Y the Sunny Center, and

1078
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 3: there's sunny is it Sunnycenter dot com.

1079
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:33,400
Speaker 5: Dot com And in the website that it describes how

1080
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:37,000
Speaker 5: you can donate, you can and so so different ways.

1081
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 3: And you're just doing such incredible work.

1082
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:43,320
Speaker 6: Yes, that's what we do, and that's what we love doing.

1083
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 6: And it's not just healing for the exonerties, for it's

1084
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Speaker 6: healing for us too.

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Speaker 3: Don't forget to give us a fit tast stick review

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Speaker 3: wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm

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Speaker 3: a proud donor to the Ennisnce Project, and I really

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Speaker 3: hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause

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Speaker 3: and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject

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Speaker 3: dot org to learn how to donate and get involved.

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Speaker 3: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and

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Speaker 3: Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three

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Speaker 3: time OSCAR nominatede composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow

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Speaker 3: us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at

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Speaker 3: Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a

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Speaker 3: production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal

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Speaker 3: Company Number one