1 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: are solely those of the individuals participating in the show 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable 6 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 7 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 2: Hi, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Vet gent 8 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 2: Lay and I'm Roschia Pecquerrero. 9 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 3: This week we are talking about the shocking death of 10 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:40,520 Speaker 3: Misty Upham, a thirty two year old Indigenous actress whose 11 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 3: star was on the rise in Hollywood. 12 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 2: Misty was in movies like august Osage County, Jango, Unchained, 13 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 2: and Frozen River. She also appeared in TV shows like 14 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 2: Big Love, and she was applauded as an Indigenous woman 15 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 2: for achieving a measure of mainstream success. 16 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 3: Yes, but her personal story reveals a life full of tragedy, 17 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 3: including sexual violence, racial prejudice, and mental illness. There were 18 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 3: signs for months that Misty was in crisis, but even 19 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,479 Speaker 3: as a burgeoning movie star, she was unable to get 20 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 3: the help that she's so desperately needed. After she died, 21 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 3: actors like Juliette Lewis, were outspoken in their rage about 22 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 3: this tragic loss, which they insist was completely preventable. But 23 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 3: the real question is how did Misty slip through the cracks. 24 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 3: Today we're talking once again with our friend Jim Trainham, 25 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 3: a private consultant and former detective with the Metropolitan Police Department. Yes, 26 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 3: but now our producer Trevor is going to walk us 27 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 3: through today's case. 28 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 4: Missy Upham has been found now official say a family 29 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 4: member found her along a river near Seattle. 30 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 5: Upham was reported missing by our family October sixth Her 31 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 5: father said the star was suicidal. Her dad also said 32 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 5: Missy had stopped taking medication for anxiety and bipolar disorder 33 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 5: before she disappeared. 34 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 3: When I found acting, I found home, and it was 35 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 3: like a home that nobody could. 36 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 4: Take away from me. 37 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: Misty Upham was a thirty two year old woman who 38 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: was found dead at the bottom of a ravine in Auburn, Washington, 39 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: on October sixteenth, twenty fourteen. She had disappeared eleven days earlier. 40 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: Misty was a Native American actress, well known for roles 41 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: in films like Django. Unchained in august Osh County, she 42 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: was also a member of the Blackfeet Nation tribe in Montana. 43 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: Misty was born in nineteen eighty two to Charles and 44 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: Mona Upham. The family moved back and forth for years 45 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: on and off the Blackfeet Reservation in Montana. Her father, Charles, 46 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: was determined to get his children away from the reservation, 47 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: which he viewed as a dead end. In addition to 48 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: frequently moving, Misty experienced descript nation. One best friend was 49 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: once forbidden from playing with her after her parents learned 50 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 1: she was Native. On the reservation, Misty was frequently jumped 51 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: and beat up for having more money than other kids. 52 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: At age thirteen, she was gang raped on the reservation 53 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: and began to suffer panic attacks. She was prescribed psychiatric medication, 54 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: but she abused it and began abusing alcohol as well. 55 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 1: She also began cutting herself and considered suicide. Despite these 56 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: considerable hardships, Misty had ambitious dreams. She wanted to act, 57 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: and she got her start in a nonprofit youth theater 58 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: group for Indigenous kids. Misty Starr began to rise in 59 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: earnest in the early two thousands with an appearance in 60 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: the film Skins. She went on to appear in more 61 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: TV movies and shows, including Big Love and the aforementioned 62 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: Django Unchained. In twenty thirteen, she landed a role as 63 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: a housekeeper in august Osah County. This role threw her 64 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: in with the star studded cast that included Meryl Streep, 65 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: Julia Roberts, and George Clooney, but her hardships continued at 66 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: the Golden Globe Awards. Earlier that year, she was allegedly 67 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: raped by a Weinstein Company executive in a bathroom. She 68 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: did not report the rape because she feared retribution from 69 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: the company and the industry. The next year, she moved 70 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 1: from California to Washington State to help care for her 71 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 1: father after he suffered a stroke. In Washington that summer, 72 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: Misty had a hard time re establishing her psychiatric care 73 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 1: and relied on the er of her treatment for her 74 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: depression PTSD and bipolar disorder. As the summer wore on, 75 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: her mental state declined. She experienced several breakdowns during which 76 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: her family had to institutionalize her involuntarily. During one such incident, 77 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 1: police officers mocked her claims of being a Hollywood actress. 78 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: On October fifth, twenty fourteen, Misty was in a bad state. 79 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: Fearing for her safety, her father called nine one one. 80 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 1: She saw this and fled the house. Charles up and 81 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 1: ran after her, but was stopped by arriving police, who 82 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: insisted on searching the house, even as he told them 83 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: she'd fled. The cops refused to search for Misty outside 84 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: the house, saying they had to wait until she'd been 85 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,799 Speaker 1: missing for at least twenty four hours. After the fact, 86 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 1: the police commander said that this was not at all 87 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: their policy. The next day, Charles reported Misty missing. The 88 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: detective assigned to the case repeatedly refused to organize a search, saying, 89 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: according to Charles, quote, she's probably off partying somewhere. Six 90 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: days later, on October thirteenth, the detective in charge wrote 91 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: to an officer asking about the outcomes of the search results. 92 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: She responded, quote outcome, nothing has been done yet. And 93 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 1: then three days later, a volunteer search team organized by 94 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: the family discovered Misty's body in a steep ravine near 95 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 1: the apartment where she'd been staying. The volunteer party, all 96 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: indigenous individuals, said the police did not think or help them. 97 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: Police eventually found no evidence of foul play, and the 98 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: family believed that she slipped and fell into the ravine 99 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: while fleeing her home. The circumstances surrounding the investigation into 100 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 1: Misty Upham's disappearance caused an uproar and drew attention to 101 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: a larger problem. At the time of her disappearance, she 102 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: was just one of thousands of missing Indigenous women in 103 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: North America. And so what happened to Misty Upham, why 104 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: did the police ignore her disappearance? And how does the 105 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: story reflect the need for better resources in cases of 106 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: missing or murdered Indigenous women. 107 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 2: Well, we have a lot to talk about with the 108 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 2: case of Misty Upham, and to help us work through this, 109 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 2: we are very excited to welcome back Jim Trainham. He 110 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 2: is a private consultant and a former detective with the 111 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 2: Metropolitan Police Department. Thank you again for coming on. 112 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 4: I'm glad to be here. So whatever insight I can offer, 113 00:06:59,120 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 4: I'm happy to do it. 114 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 2: Well, you know, before we get into the case, can 115 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 2: you tell us a little bit about you know, what 116 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 2: you've been working on. We know that you just finished 117 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 2: Freeway Phantom, which is you know out and it's an incredible, 118 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 2: incredible podcast. I recommend all of our listeners to download 119 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 2: that particular podcast, but talk about that or tell us 120 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 2: what you're doing. 121 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 4: Yes, there's a couple of podcasts that I have been 122 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 4: involved in trying to help get information out about older 123 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 4: cases like the Freeway Fanom and all of that. And 124 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 4: the Freeway Fanom case itself had some similarities with this 125 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 4: case and that it involved you know, African American girls 126 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 4: and back in the seventies, and the police response was 127 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 4: actually pretty slow at first for many reasons. One is 128 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 4: the department was occupied with anti war demonstrations back during 129 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 4: the Vietnam War. Watergate was you know, happening, so resources 130 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 4: kept getting pulled off. But also these case at first, 131 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 4: we're just not given the priority that we have come 132 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 4: to learn is necessary. And so when you look at 133 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 4: these old cases, you're not only you know, looking at 134 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 4: them with an eye towards trying to solve them, but 135 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 4: you're also highlighting some of the problems that they existed 136 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 4: back then. But many of them still exist today. It's 137 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 4: important that we try to learn from our mistakes and 138 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 4: get better at what we do. But oftentimes, because law 139 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 4: enforcement is so fragmented in this country that it's difficult 140 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 4: to get the message out there, especially to like some 141 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,839 Speaker 4: of the smaller departments that don't have the resources right 142 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 4: of larger ones as well. 143 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 6: That's so true, Jim. 144 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 3: And you know, with Freeway Phantom, that's back in the seventies, 145 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 3: but Misty Upham was much more recent. But she was 146 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 3: also a person of color who was overlooked. Like, what 147 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 3: were your first impressions or reactions when learning about Misty's case? 148 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 4: Just that it's and this is going to be depressing, 149 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 4: is that this is not a typical type of case. 150 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 4: It's not one that stands out as being all that unusual. 151 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 4: You see cases like this or cases that have these 152 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 4: components occur all the time, and oftentimes it's it's because 153 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 4: of the way the system works or doesn't work. It's 154 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 4: our own biases that we bring to the table when 155 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 4: we're trying to make decisions, and you know, just people 156 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 4: become defensive rather than say, yeah, we made a mistake, 157 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 4: this is what we need to do or you change 158 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 4: that sort of thing. So, you know, that's that's what 159 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,959 Speaker 4: really kind of struck me, not only the things about 160 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 4: it that you can say are unusual, but just how 161 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 4: usual this case is. 162 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 2: It's so true, you know, I always familiar with the 163 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 2: case because you know, there was a few movies that 164 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 2: I loved, which was Frozen River. So I was familiar 165 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:06,359 Speaker 2: with who she was, and I loved her her subtlety 166 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,079 Speaker 2: of acting. Did you know about this case? Like, how 167 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 2: familiar were you with this case? 168 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 4: I wasn't familiar with it at all until you reached 169 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 4: out to me and I started looking over some of 170 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 4: the material right there. So a lot of these cases 171 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 4: don't get out into the public unless her background in 172 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 4: movies and all of that that made it more interesting 173 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 4: to some people. You know, when I started looking into it. 174 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 4: One of the things that really struck me was how 175 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 4: self aware Misty was of her problems. Yeah, she recognized 176 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 4: that she definitely had mental health issues, she knew where 177 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 4: they came from, she wanted help. But when she spiraled 178 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 4: out of control, of course, that's when her rational side 179 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 4: was lost, and so you know, that's what they were 180 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 4: having to deal with. The Other thing is is that, 181 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 4: you know, just the issue with mental health in this country. 182 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 4: You know, law enforcement agency is a foundly saying no, this 183 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 4: is something that we really can't handle. I mean, we're 184 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 4: ill equipped to handle, right, and yet it's forced upon 185 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 4: us all the time. Oftentimes, like in this case, you know, 186 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,599 Speaker 4: you get a call, you get there, you're supposed to 187 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 4: handle it quickly and move on to the next call, 188 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 4: and cases like this you can't handle quickly now. But 189 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 4: just the fact that you know, she wanted help and 190 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 4: they went to get her help, and because of the 191 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 4: funding that was available to her, she was put off 192 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 4: for months. And just from my own experience, when somebody 193 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,839 Speaker 4: who has mental health issues, when they say I want help, 194 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 4: they need it, then it has to happen then, yeah, 195 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 4: because they're not in a position where they can put 196 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 4: it off. They're ready now. And so that's one of 197 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 4: the biggest obstacles that we really need to overcome, that 198 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 4: when you're ready, it has to be there. Her having 199 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 4: to rely on emergency room care for her mental health treatment, 200 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 4: that was far from the best. Yeah. And then, like 201 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 4: I said, law enforcement officers being called to come in 202 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 4: and step into a situation that they're ill prepared for, 203 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 4: and that their response is Okay, snatch her up, get 204 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 4: her to at the hospital. Oh no, she's kicked out again. 205 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 4: Here we go again, you know that sort of thing. 206 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 4: So they become callous. 207 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think that's an interesting word that you chose, Jim. Like, 208 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 3: you know, I put myself in that position, and I 209 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 3: never had or have had mental health issues the way 210 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 3: that Misty was open about having. But I myself have 211 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 3: definitely been through PTSD and trauma. But I was fortunate 212 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 3: and am fortunate enough to be in therapy. I was 213 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 3: in trauma therapy, you know, after witnessing a traumatic death 214 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 3: on board as a flight attendant. And I remember going 215 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 3: through that intensive therapy and counseling and thinking, oh my god, 216 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 3: I wish every single person who had ever been through 217 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 3: any type of trauma could go through this so that 218 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 3: you have tools to use. 219 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 6: When you get into those dark, dark places. 220 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 3: And you're so right, Like mental health it needs to 221 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 3: be available to everyone. And police officers they're not trained 222 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 3: in that, yep. And that's that's not their fault, but 223 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 3: that's definitely something we need to take a step towards 224 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 3: or getting people who are trained in mental health to 225 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 3: maybe go on these calls with police officers. I don't 226 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 3: know what the answer is. 227 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 4: I'm just well, at least have a resource that you 228 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 4: can call, Yeah, have somebody you can reach out to 229 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 4: and say, this is my situation. You know, what do 230 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 4: I do right? 231 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 6: Who do I talk to? 232 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 4: Right? Help me walk through this. I just remember decades ago, 233 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:44,959 Speaker 4: back during my paramedic days. 234 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 6: Oh you were a paramedic. 235 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 4: I worked as a firefighter paramedic for Arlington County for 236 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:51,599 Speaker 4: many years, which is right next to d C. 237 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 3: Oh wow. 238 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 4: And you know, having people with mental health issues who 239 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 4: would repeatedly call for medical services and then trying to 240 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 4: set up something so that they wouldn't have to call 241 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 4: nine one wife, so that they had something in place. 242 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 4: I just remember being from the phone for hours, getting 243 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 4: bounced from one to the other. It's somewhat better now, 244 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 4: but still, you know the law enforcement officer, he's out there. 245 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 4: He's basically told you got to handle this situation quickly. 246 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 4: And just looking at the annual report of this department, 247 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 4: they are a small agency. Now. It does not excuse 248 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 4: many things that happened in his pace. It does not 249 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 4: excuse like when that one time when she had a 250 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 4: crisis and she was taken into custody, the officer taunting her. Yeah, 251 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 4: it doesn't excuse the fact that when the complaint was 252 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 4: initially made, the department responded, oh no, we responded appropriately 253 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 4: and compassionately, and yet later on when it's under invest 254 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 4: further investigation, the officer admitted that, yeah, I did that, 255 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 4: but of course the excuse that he gives is that 256 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 4: he was trying to shake her out of it or whatever, 257 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 4: you know, that sort of thing. 258 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 2: You know, Rassia, you know, you were very fortunate to 259 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 2: have all the resources, like you said, but there are 260 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 2: so many that don't have any resources or anyone to 261 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 2: reach out to. And then if the nine to one 262 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 2: one you know, is called the police come and these 263 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 2: people are having manic episodes or they're gonna end up 264 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 2: going to jail, not to er first, and that's a 265 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 2: whole nother experience in itself. 266 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 4: Right. Our first step is to control, you know, we're 267 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 4: going to bring the situation under control. And the way 268 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 4: that we control things is through four and through incarceration. 269 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 4: And once the person gets incarcerated for something like this, 270 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 4: then you know they have that stigma. Yeah, so can incarceration, 271 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 4: even you know, for minor things, can cause them to 272 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 4: maybe lose a job, lose health insurance, So it's a 273 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 4: downward spiral. 274 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I do appreciate you saying that, you know, 275 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 2: police officers are just they're not equipped to handle that 276 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 2: type of situation. So, you know, because we have a 277 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 2: lot of police officers in our family and they're amazing 278 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 2: human beings, but there comes a time, you know, where 279 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 2: you need other parties to come in and handle these 280 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 2: particular situations. So again, we've come a long way, but 281 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 2: we still have such a long way to go. 282 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 4: And like you said, this wasn't all that long ago. No, 283 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 4: I haven't been able to pull up anything on the 284 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 4: departments current policies in reference to missing persons or mental 285 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 4: illness and all that. But going through like their twenty 286 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 4: eighteen annual report, there was really nothing in there about, 287 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 4: you know, them handling this. So four years later after 288 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 4: this happened, you know, they hadn't really made any public 289 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 4: adjustments to deal with situations like this, and you know, 290 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 4: hopefully by now they have been. But still, even if 291 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 4: you have processes in place, like supposedly they claimed they 292 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 4: did here about reporting missing persons, you know, the officer 293 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 4: first told the family that, oh, you can't report a 294 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 4: missing person for twenty four hours? 295 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 6: Is that true? 296 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 1: Though? 297 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 3: I thought that wasn't even a that's not true. Yeah, okay, yeah, 298 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 3: I didn't think that was a real policy. 299 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 4: And in fact, over the last god, even before this occurred, 300 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 4: most agencies were saying, no, you take a missing person 301 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 4: report right away. Now, maybe it's because she didn't fall 302 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 4: into a neat box, Okay, because she had just run 303 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 4: out of the home. 304 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 6: Right, she was. 305 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 4: Suicidal, she was in a crisis, and yet technically she's 306 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 4: not missing, you know, could they have thought of it 307 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 4: that way? But because they classified it as a suicidal 308 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 4: incident or whatever. But a lot of agencies, my old 309 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:14,120 Speaker 4: agency as well, this would have been classified as a 310 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 4: critical missing person right because she was, which means you 311 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 4: set up a command post, which means you pull out 312 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 4: the stops and you you know, get out there and 313 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 4: you start, you know, putting it out on the news, 314 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 4: and you start doing your searches and things like that. 315 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 4: I noticed that one of the criticisms that the family 316 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:38,400 Speaker 4: had was that when the police first arrived there, they 317 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 4: you know, stop the father who was trying to go 318 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 4: after missing and then they searched the house. And I'm going, well, 319 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 4: why would they do that, right, she's not house. The 320 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 4: only thing I can think of is that when it 321 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 4: comes to like missing children, and one of the first 322 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 4: things that you do is you actually search the house 323 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 4: because sometimes they're hiding in the house or they've fallen 324 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 4: us leap at a closet or something like that, Right, 325 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 4: And so maybe they were doing it because they knew 326 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 4: that she was in a crisis, maybe she was in 327 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 4: the house, whatever, they just want to be sure. I mean, 328 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 4: based on the scenario that we have here, and I 329 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 4: don't have a full understanding because I don't know, like 330 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 4: how close her body was found to her house was 331 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 4: far I believe, and so the scenario that, yeah, she 332 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 4: was trying to get away and she went down there 333 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 4: and fell, she might have been, you know, dead by 334 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 4: the time they found her if they had continued to search. 335 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 4: But you know, she might not have been. We don't 336 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 4: know the extent of her injuries and things along that line, And. 337 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 3: That's the question we're here to answer, right, I mean, 338 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 3: or at least what how could it have been prevented? 339 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 6: Exactly? 340 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 4: Well, the prevention part would have come through better services 341 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 4: for her to help her control her crisises. The other 342 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 4: part is is that if the police response wasn't to 343 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,920 Speaker 4: take control, just get her to the hospital and that's it. 344 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 4: And the fact that she's learned from past experience, the 345 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 4: police aren't here to. 346 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,360 Speaker 6: Help me, right, That's why she ran. 347 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 4: Right, So all of that combined, right, they're played a 348 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 4: part in this. 349 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 3: Do you think a lot of it had to do 350 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 3: or at least some of it had to do with 351 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 3: the fact that she was indigenous? 352 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 6: She was a Native American. 353 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 3: And I'm not trying to say anything bad about the 354 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 3: Auburn police department, but I'm assuming there were tensions and maybe. 355 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 6: That had something to do with it. 356 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 3: I mean, Washington, Montana, the Dakota's I think there's a 357 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 3: lot of tension, if that's the politically correct thing to say. 358 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 4: Well, there's a lot of mistrust because just the bad 359 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 4: experiences that they've had with contact with the police, And 360 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 4: if you don't respond well to the police, the police 361 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 4: are going to have a bias against you, and they 362 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 4: start looking at all of a certain class of people 363 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 4: the same way. Now, we all have our bias, right, 364 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,400 Speaker 4: and we can recognize our bias and we can say 365 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 4: I am not going to let that impact the way 366 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 4: that I'm making a decision here, just by acknowledging it 367 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 4: at the time, right. But yeah, just in cases that 368 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 4: I have worked that involved you know, reservations in you know, 369 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 4: Indian countries, places like that. In law enforcement, there is 370 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 4: not much you know, love between the groups right there. 371 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 6: Yeah, our trust. 372 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:27,239 Speaker 4: You know. 373 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 2: The thing about it is, I think that's it's so 374 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 2: sad and so disappointing, is that she had interactions with 375 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 2: the police a few times, you know, because her parents 376 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 2: had call nine one one, you know, because she was 377 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 2: dealing with you know, mental health issues like bipolar and 378 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,199 Speaker 2: you know, she had been abused, so she had these episodes, 379 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,640 Speaker 2: so they already knew who she was. Let's just say that, right. 380 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 2: It's a small community, right, But so now they get 381 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 2: this call and like the father said, you know she's 382 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 2: not in the house, they still go in the house 383 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 2: and they won't do what they're supposed to do. Now, 384 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,719 Speaker 2: you got to think this is like the third fourth time, 385 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 2: and they know that there's something wrong with her, but 386 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 2: instead of being ill equipped to handle it with compassion 387 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 2: knowing that someone is sick and needs help, therefore, they 388 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 2: don't even go and check to see if she's in 389 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,959 Speaker 2: the near vicinity. Nobody really knows exactly what happened, but 390 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 2: we do know that she was found, you know, twenty 391 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 2: five feet down this ravine by her family members, not 392 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 2: by the police. They didn't put anything out like on 393 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 2: social media. And I think that's what the family was 394 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 2: so upset about, because if it would have been the 395 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 2: chief's daughter or someone else, the mayor's daughter or someone 396 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,479 Speaker 2: else who was in a higher status so to speak, 397 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 2: they would have looked for her or him. 398 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 4: Oh absolutely, I mean the thing is, we deny that, 399 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 4: but if you just look at the response that law 400 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 4: enforcement gives to different types of cases involving different types 401 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 4: of people, we don't treat everybody equal across the board. 402 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 4: And there's lots of reasons for that, you know, But 403 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 4: you know, like I said, bias is one of them. Also, 404 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 4: public pressure, you know, the media oftentimes they won't publicize 405 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 4: these things, and it's a lot of times it's the 406 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 4: media that drives these investigations and drives you know, people 407 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 4: to go above and beyond. But here, you know, like 408 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 4: I said, they just have somebody here. We are again. 409 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 4: We took her into the hospital last time. Why is 410 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 4: in the hospital keeping her? You know, she's out here again. 411 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 4: And so I can't say that they fell into that trap, 412 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 4: of course, because I don't know everything about the case, 413 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 4: but that is a trap that we do fall into. 414 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's unfortunate because I really think, you know, 415 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 2: if they would have taken the time to search you know, 416 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 2: this is just my opinion from you know, reading all 417 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 2: the details in the research, if they would have taken 418 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 2: the time to search for her, you know, if in 419 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 2: fact she fell down that ravine hit her head, she 420 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 2: could have been saved. But instead her body was there 421 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 2: for eleven days. 422 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 4: That's a very rough place. It sounds like, i mean, 423 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,199 Speaker 4: very hard to get to. They couldn't even get you know, 424 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 4: the medical examiner down there to view the body because 425 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 4: it is so rough and all of that. Yeah, but 426 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 4: her purse was visible, you know, once you got off 427 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 4: the road. You know. It's just like in the freeway 428 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 4: fantom case, right, like the second victim wasn't recovered, you know, 429 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 4: for days, even though they had reports of a body 430 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 4: off the roadside, simply because the officer didn't get out 431 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 4: of the car and go look over the guardrail. 432 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,880 Speaker 3: I mean, this is obviously far fetched. I just still 433 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 3: want to ask the question. We don't think the police 434 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 3: department was involved in any way in her death, right, 435 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:54,360 Speaker 3: I mean, we don't think they were trying to cover 436 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 3: up anything. 437 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 6: They would just probably got callous with the situation. 438 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 4: You know. The only cover up was when they decided 439 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 4: that they weren't going to acknowledge their prior actions and 440 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 4: also acknowledge that they could have done things differently. Yeah, 441 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 4: that's the big problem, and that's really you know, the 442 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 4: takeaway from this is that cases like this we can 443 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 4: learn so much from. Yes, you know, one of the 444 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 4: things that law enforcement is encouraged to do these days 445 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 4: is old sentinel event reviews. So this is an event 446 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 4: that nobody wanted to happen. Of course, that's one thing 447 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 4: we can acknowledge. And it's not just a law enforcement's fault. 448 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 4: A lot of people involved. A lot of people made 449 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 4: decisions over a period of time that led to this. 450 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 4: So what we need to do is not look at 451 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,160 Speaker 4: blaming this one officer and all that, but look at 452 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,959 Speaker 4: the big picture and look at all the things that 453 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 4: contributed to this, not only the officers individual actions, but 454 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 4: the policies and procedures that were in place, their training, 455 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 4: what decisions or supervisors were made. In a lot of agencies, 456 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 4: the officers would been making these decisions, they would have 457 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 4: been made by a supervisor call to the scene who 458 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,400 Speaker 4: you know, like I said, set up a command post 459 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 4: and go from there. And it doesn't sound like just 460 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 4: you know, the officers kind of handled it and then 461 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 4: went off by themselves. Now. I know that there was 462 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 4: some talk about the FBI getting involved, because the FBI 463 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 4: does investigate crimes on the reservation, but they don't investigate 464 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 4: crimes off the reservation, and this wouldn't have fallen under 465 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 4: their jurisdiction. I know there was a question about suicide 466 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 4: versus accident. I had read something that the medical examiner 467 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 4: couldn't determine the cause of death, and there's kind of 468 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 4: a mix up there. In terminology. The cause of death 469 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 4: is like blunt force trauma, drownding, you know that sort 470 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 4: of thing. You know. The manner of death is like 471 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:57,400 Speaker 4: you know, a homicide, suicide, accidental or unknown. And could 472 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 4: it be possible that she went down there and threw herself, Well, 473 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 4: I don't think the blood, you know, the medical zamber 474 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,439 Speaker 4: is going to be able to say that, you know, 475 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,199 Speaker 4: just based on the injuries themselves. Yeah, I think a 476 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,880 Speaker 4: more likely scenario was that she was trying to hide 477 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 4: and she went into an area that was going to 478 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 4: be a great place to hide and she just fell. 479 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess that's what's you know, so hard to determine, Like, 480 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know because we I wasn't there, 481 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,159 Speaker 2: But you know, when you think of a blunt force 482 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 2: trauma to the head, you don't know if that could 483 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,719 Speaker 2: have happened before she fell, or if she actually, like 484 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 2: you said, just actually took a misstep. 485 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 4: Yes, some people had come forward and said that she 486 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 4: had tried to get into a house where there was 487 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,640 Speaker 4: a party and she had been beaten and killed there 488 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 4: a couple of things. I mean, she did have a 489 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 4: very high level of alcohol in her when she died. What, 490 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 4: we don't know what her tolerance for alcohol was. Right. 491 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 4: The idea though, of her actually dying there and then 492 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,640 Speaker 4: being transported to where she was found, that's a little harder, 493 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 4: simply because it's very hard to move bodies and getting 494 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 4: a body in that area through the brush. Because I 495 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 4: saw some of the pictures that they had of the 496 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 4: area and then you know all of that, that's a 497 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 4: lot of work. Yeah, I think if something like that happened, 498 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 4: she might have just been beaten and then took off 499 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 4: again and could have slipped and followed but again, that's 500 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 4: something that can be followed up on. And if they 501 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 4: had looked upon it as a critical missing person, possibly 502 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 4: somebody would have come forward earlier and would have been 503 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 4: willing to cooperate. But it's my understanding that the person 504 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 4: who gave this information is not willing to talk about it. 505 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 3: I have a question for you, Jim, what does determine 506 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 3: when a person is considered critical missing just. 507 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 4: When they're at a danger to themsel else. Let's say 508 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 4: that somebody has dementia, they're out wandering the street, we don't. 509 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 6: Know where they are, and they end up missing. 510 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 4: Just a danger of them to themselves or others, but 511 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 4: mostly to themselves. And she was a danger to herself. 512 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly if you look at everything that her parents 513 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 2: said and everything that she did, and she'd already had interactions, 514 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 2: like I said earlier, with the police a few times 515 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 2: like that is exactly what it should have been. It 516 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 2: was a call for help, but she didn't get that 517 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 2: help that she needed that I think could have prevented 518 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 2: this from happening. 519 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 4: And a lot of times I know my colleagues are 520 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 4: reluctant to go above and beyond just because they're afraid 521 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 4: of being criticized by their own you know, colleagues. But 522 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 4: you know you shouldn't have done that. You know, all 523 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 4: you're doing is making work for people. She would have 524 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 4: been fine that sort of stuff. You see, she is 525 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 4: fine here, she is. But you know, the safest way 526 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 4: would have been just I had treated this like a 527 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 4: critical missing person, call out the search TAE, you know, 528 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 4: like they were talking about. They didn't call canine because 529 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 4: canines are for criminals and not for missing persons, but 530 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 4: they would be for a critical missing person. Yeah, I 531 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 4: mean that could be a tool, you know, to help 532 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 4: track them down, you know, helicopters with with let's say, 533 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 4: heat sensing, whatever they have there these days, I help 534 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 4: to see through brush things along that line. You know, 535 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 4: all of that could have been done. 536 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 3: There's so many things that we can go off on, 537 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 3: so many different tangents and talking about with you know, 538 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 3: with Misty's case, it just you know, it breaks my 539 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 3: heart because all I did, you know, the last few 540 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 3: days was you know, watch different footage of Misty and 541 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 3: who she was as a human being, and she was 542 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 3: a bright, shining light. And I feel like I say 543 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 3: that so much with all of the people that we 544 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 3: talk about that are victims and whether or not Misty 545 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 3: was murdered. You know, she was a victim because she 546 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:23,719 Speaker 3: had lifelong you know, childhood sexual abuse PTSD that she 547 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 3: was open about in addition to her you know, her 548 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 3: mental health, and of course that all affects her mental 549 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 3: health and not getting the help she needed. But you know, 550 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 3: I'd love to know what you think. I love how 551 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 3: you shared the takeaways with us, but I would love 552 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 3: to know what you think we can do moving forward 553 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 3: to help prevent this happening to the Misties of the world. Like, 554 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 3: is there more training that has to happen in the 555 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 3: police department. 556 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, and there's so many different agencies out there trying 557 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 4: different things. Yeah, it's going to take a major investment, 558 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 4: not only in money, but also you know, other recent sources, 559 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 4: a commitment from the agency to train their people and 560 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 4: make sure that they follow their training and that they 561 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 4: make use of these resources. And that's why, like I 562 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 4: had mentioned before, an unbiased review with all the stakeholders, 563 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 4: and the stakeholders in this case are also Missy's family. 564 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 4: Even though there is a policy or a procedure in place, 565 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 4: and this is the way we're taught to do things. 566 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 4: The agency needs to understand how the public perceives that 567 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 4: policy and procedure, and you know, do they perceive it 568 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 4: as Okay, you did right under the policy, but was 569 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 4: it the right thing to do? It's a big difference, 570 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 4: and too often we fall back on no, they follow 571 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 4: the proper policy. Well maybe they did to the letter, 572 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 4: but not the spirit. 573 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 3: I love that, Jim, I love that, to the letter, 574 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 3: but not the spirit. 575 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 2: If you could speak to the young men and women 576 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 2: who want to be police officers, what advice would you 577 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 2: give them going into the field, Like, what advice would 578 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 2: help them? 579 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 4: I think one of the things that you have to 580 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 4: recognize is too often we fall into our own little cocoon. 581 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 4: We try to isolate ourselves and protect ourselves, and we 582 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 4: need to kind of expand our horizons beyond our coworkers 583 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 4: and so that we can, you know, better off understand 584 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 4: you know, different types of people, things along that line. 585 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 4: But the other thing is is we also have to 586 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 4: realize that it's so easy to pigeonhole people and pigeonhole neighborhoods. 587 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 4: Like I just remember back when I was working a 588 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,959 Speaker 4: series of gang homicides in this one neighborhood. Every Body 589 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 4: that I personally dealt with was you know, either involved 590 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 4: in drugs, you know, selling drugs or murders and things 591 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 4: like that, and so we all kind of got the 592 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 4: attitude this is a neighborhood, you know, it was lost. 593 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 4: And it was one day when we were I was 594 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 4: out knocking on doors trying to do a canvas and 595 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 4: this woman opened her door and invited me in and 596 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 4: her family was in there, and they were the loveliest people. 597 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 4: And that made me realize that these people are the norm. 598 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 4: You know, they're not criminals, I mean, but they live 599 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,479 Speaker 4: in this neighborhood. They're stuck in a bad situation. They're 600 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 4: dealing with it the best way we can, and you 601 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 4: know we're supposed to be there to. 602 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,359 Speaker 3: Help them, right, that's the oath that you took, right, 603 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 3: got it is it? 604 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 4: It's sometimes hard to do, but you know, like I said, 605 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 4: if you look at not only doing things just by 606 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 4: the book. Yeah, and also you know, just don't take shortcuts. Yes, 607 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 4: the shortcuts is what gets you in trouble. 608 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 3: That's so true and that's in life too. 609 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:45,720 Speaker 6: Really. 610 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, So one positive thing that came from this horrific 611 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 3: tragedy was the founding of the Misty Uppam Award for 612 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 3: Young Native actors at the Yale Indigenous Performing Arts Program. 613 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 3: It started in twenty twenty one and every year they 614 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 3: recognize young Native American actors with exceptional talent. So, Jim, 615 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 3: that's just one of the lights that happened. Can you 616 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 3: tell us what is the light for you in this case? 617 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 4: The fact that it's getting out there, and the fact 618 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 4: that one of the things is is that we're not 619 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,280 Speaker 4: just saying blame the police. Nope, We're not just saying 620 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,760 Speaker 4: those officers screwed up that day. Yeah. What we're saying 621 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 4: is there is a lot that contributed to this. There's 622 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 4: a lot of things that if something had just been 623 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 4: done a little bit differently at this point, at several 624 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 4: points along the way, this need not have happened. And 625 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,760 Speaker 4: we nearly need to look at this from the big picture, 626 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 4: identify what those points were and how we can prevent 627 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 4: this sort of stuff from happening in the future. And 628 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 4: just like other people who are going to be viewing this, 629 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 4: like myself, I was unaware of this case and I 630 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 4: did not know all the ins and outs of it. 631 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 4: But here's a person who's very much self aware of 632 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 4: her own mental illness, who is trying to get help, 633 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 4: but help just isn't there, and as a result, this happens. So, 634 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 4: you know, hopefully that message will get to them situations 635 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:21,719 Speaker 4: in their own life. They'll try to maybe you know, 636 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 4: work harder to get help, but also to help improve 637 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 4: the system so that when somebody becomes vulnerable like she 638 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:30,760 Speaker 4: did that day, she just wouldn't be ignored. 639 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 2: And that's it right there. You just answered all of 640 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 2: my last questions, you know, because what are the positive 641 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 2: changes you know that could prevent these tragedies, And you 642 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 2: just said it to not be ignored, simple as that. 643 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 2: You know, everyone is a human being, we all do 644 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 2: the same things. With that being said, Jim again, you know, 645 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 2: thank you so much for taking time. I'm you be 646 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 2: with us here on facing evil. We so respect your intelligence, 647 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 2: you know your years of you know, work in the 648 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,239 Speaker 2: police departments. Like we really thank you for being on 649 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 2: the show. Mahalo nui looa. 650 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 3: Yes, Jim, and thank you for your compassion. You're a 651 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 3: very compassionate soul and we truly. 652 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 6: Appreciate you well. 653 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 4: Thank you so much. 654 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 3: Today's message of hope and healing goes out to Misty Uppham. 655 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 6: Missy Starr was on the rise. 656 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:41,320 Speaker 3: In fact, she once even told a reporter quote acting 657 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:42,800 Speaker 3: saved my life. 658 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 2: But other circumstances ultimately conspired to be too much. Her 659 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 2: mental illness, which was intensified by things like recurrent poverty, violence, 660 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 2: and sexual trauma, as well as other realities brought on 661 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:04,360 Speaker 2: by life as an Indigenous woman, just ultimately took her life. 662 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, and months before she died, Misty founded the Indigo 663 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 3: Children's Group, which she hoped would provide Native children living 664 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:16,919 Speaker 3: on reservations with artistic role models and opportunities. 665 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 2: And in twenty twenty one, the Yale Indigenous Performing Arts 666 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 2: Program created the Misty Uppham Award for Young Native Actors, 667 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,839 Speaker 2: which offers a cash prize of five hundred dollars and 668 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:35,240 Speaker 2: performance opportunities, as well as a message from Miss. 669 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 6: Meryl Streep that's amazing. 670 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 3: Fern Renville, who leads the theater group that gave Misty 671 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:45,800 Speaker 3: her start read Eagle Soaring, acknowledges the mark that Misty left, 672 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 3: saying her legacy is huge for Native young people interested 673 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 3: in being in film. It's a door that she opened. 674 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 3: It seems possible to them. Misty did it, we can 675 00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 3: do it. 676 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 2: We'd like to leave you with this spe buying quote 677 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:06,879 Speaker 2: from Misty. Allow yourself the freedom to dream. Dreams are 678 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 2: what make your entire life worth living. Without dreams, we 679 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 2: are nothing. Onward and upward emua Ema. 680 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:26,800 Speaker 6: Well that's our show for today. 681 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 3: We'd love to hear what you thought about today's discussion 682 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:31,839 Speaker 3: and if there's a case you'd like for. 683 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 2: Us to cover, find us on social media or email 684 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 2: us at facingebl. 685 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 6: Pod at tenderfoot dot tv. 686 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,239 Speaker 3: And one small request if you haven't already, please find 687 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 3: us on iTunes and give us a good rating and 688 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,919 Speaker 3: a good review. If you like what we do, your 689 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:48,840 Speaker 3: support is always cherished. 690 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 2: Until next time, Aloha. 691 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 1: Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV. 692 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Russia Paccuerero and Avet Gentile. 693 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf 694 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:25,800 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald 695 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 1: albright In Payne Lindsay, our executive producers on behalf of 696 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Carolyn Talmadge, 697 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,440 Speaker 1: original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on 698 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 1: social media or email us at facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv. 699 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the 700 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 701 00:40:53,200 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: favorite shows.