1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: Welcome back to She Pivots and I'm Paloma Faith. 2 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: Welcome back to She Pivots, the podcast where we talk 3 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 2: with women who dare to pivot out of one career 4 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 2: and into something new and explore how their personal lives 5 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 2: impacts these decisions. I'm your host, Emily Tish Sussman. This 6 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 2: week marks a special moment here on She Pivots that 7 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 2: first season finale, and I can't think of a better 8 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 2: guest to close this chapter with and someone who embodies reinvention, 9 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 2: honesty and creative fearlessness Paloma Faith. So you may know 10 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,520 Speaker 2: Paloma as the chart topping singer with a voice that's 11 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 2: both soulful and unmistakably her own, or for her fiery 12 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 2: appearances on The Voice and Beyond, But like so many 13 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 2: of the women we feature on the show, Paloma has 14 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 2: never been defined by just one lane. Her latest pivot 15 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 2: is perhaps her most personal yet. Paloma recently released a 16 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 2: best selling memoir called MILF Motherhood, Identity, Love and Fuckery, 17 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 2: and in it she does something that so many of 18 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 2: us mothers need. She tears down the glossy, filtered images 19 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 2: of motherhood and tells the truth about IVF and miscarriages, 20 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 2: about the realities of postpartum depression, about sleepless nights, fractured relationships, 21 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 2: and the identity shifts that come when you become a mother. 22 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 2: She does it with the same boldness, wit, and vulnerability 23 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 2: that has always defined her artistry. In this episode, Paloma 24 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 2: reminds us that motherhood, and really womanhood, is messy and 25 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 2: complicated and fine and painful and beautiful all at once. 26 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 2: She invites us to reject the impossible ideal of the 27 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 2: supermom and instead embrace the imperfections that make us whole. 28 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 2: I'm so happy we're ending this season with Paloma. Her 29 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 2: pivot is what this season, and really what the show. 30 00:01:57,600 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 3: Is all about. 31 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 2: Her pivot into authorship is a departure from her former 32 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 2: self and career. It's an expansion of it. So for 33 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,519 Speaker 2: our season finale, I am the old to welcome Paloma Faith. 34 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: My name's Poloma Faith and I am a singer, actress, 35 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: and writer. 36 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 3: So we'll back up. 37 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 2: We'll go back to the beginning. Little Paloma, tell us 38 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 2: about your family. Tell us about where you grew up, Like, 39 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 2: what was your sort of daily routine as a kid. 40 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: So I grew up in London in Hackney, which is 41 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: kind of like an equivalent of New York's Brooklyn, like 42 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: a kind of poor area that ended up being gentrified, 43 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: and the artist moved in and I was schooled there. 44 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: My parents' divorced when I was two, and I used 45 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: to have to visit my dad on weekends. But I 46 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: was raised predominantly by my mum, and I didn't have 47 00:02:54,720 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: any siblings until my dad had two kids with another lady. 48 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: And then I went to normal like non private, non 49 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: paid for school in the UK my whole life. And 50 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: my mum was yeah, I said. My mom was a 51 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: single mom. She worked in a primary school, teaching little 52 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: kids from age five to about seven, and yeah, I 53 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: was schooled in that way. It was rough, It was diverse, 54 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 1: and it was full of culture and full of different 55 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: types of music, different types of people, different religions. It was, 56 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: in my view, the melting pot and an ideology that 57 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: lots of people say that politically is impossible, but I 58 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: don't agree because I grew up in it, and I'm 59 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: really proud of that. I'm proud of like the cultural mix. 60 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: My father's Spanish, my dad's English, and my stepfather's Chinese, 61 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: so I have quite like a diverse thing. And my 62 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: children that I now have are for Algerian, so I 63 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: have like a huge melting pot type vibe. I've always 64 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: been creative. I've always felt an outsider, and I was 65 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: always quite a shy child, and then I became quite 66 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: outspoken and vivacious, kind of like later in life. I 67 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: was always creative, but I was quite introverted, and I 68 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: was introspective, and I think because I was an only child, 69 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: maybe I had to spend a lot of time by 70 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: myself and make my own bun. So I always felt 71 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: kind of displaced. There was no real community that felt 72 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: fully me because I was always a mixture of so 73 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:41,039 Speaker 1: many things. 74 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 2: Paloma embraced it all, leaning into all types of creativity 75 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 2: and eventually she waned, I'm going to study. 76 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: Dance, so I went to Originally I went to dance 77 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: school when I was eighteen to train to be a 78 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: contemporary dancer. And it was hell. It was really bad. 79 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: It didn't suit me because it was all about conforming 80 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 1: to these teachers like the discipline of their like they 81 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 1: only entersized technique, and it was all about doing like 82 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: Martha Graham technique, which is amazing, But I felt like 83 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: it didn't really appeal to my creativity. And then I 84 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: went to do a master's degree in time based art, 85 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: and I learned about directing and designing the theater, and 86 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: I was kind of always juggling a lot of things 87 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 1: and it created lots of opportunities for me. But I 88 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: was already acting before I became a musician, and I 89 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 1: was already making lots of different types of art at 90 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:45,239 Speaker 1: the time, I just didn't quite know what genre. But actually, 91 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: when I did my master's my course leader he said 92 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: to me, what's important is the message of what you 93 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: want to say, not the medium, which I found really liberating. 94 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: So I've always just done lots of things and been 95 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: part of lots of different types of practice. And I 96 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 1: think that when you're a creative, when you're an artist, 97 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: you tend to have to do that at the beginning 98 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: because it's such a low income way to exist that 99 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: you need to be able to do anything. If someone 100 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: says like you, can can you sing, you go yeah? 101 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: Can you act? Yeah? Can you take pictures? Yeah? I'll 102 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: just do anything to pay the rent. But then after 103 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: my master's I just was just working in bars and 104 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: in retail while I was figuring out what was doing, 105 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: and I was singing sometimes in cabaret, and then that's 106 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: kind of when I got discovered to be also a singer. 107 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: People heard my voice and were like, you're really good, 108 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: but I didn't think I was, so I didn't. I 109 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: would always be like, what are you talking about? And 110 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: then it kind of yeah. It was actually just a 111 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: chance encounter when I was working in a lingerie shop 112 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: called Asian Provocateur, the original store, where a PR person 113 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 1: came in and she asked me what else I did 114 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, music, and she said you 115 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 1: want to meet the head of Virgin Music and I 116 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: was like yeah, and then I went and he told 117 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: me that my voice was average, that I had no songs, 118 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: but that he liked my personality. So I told him 119 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: that he was. I swore at him. I used a 120 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: word beginning to see which English people like, and he 121 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: ended up helping me meet loads of people because he 122 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: liked the fact that I spoke to him like that. 123 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: He thought I had a good attitude to be a 124 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: musician and he was like, yeah, I like you. You're punky. 125 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: So then that's how that started. Well. 126 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 2: Paloma began to explore the beginnings of her music career. 127 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 2: Her personal life also took a turn when she was 128 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 2: handed in immense responsibility. 129 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: And when I was twenty six, a series of circumstances 130 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: with my father being quite terrible and irresponsible and the 131 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: woman that he had his other children with being a 132 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: bit of a mess, I ended up becoming my middle 133 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: sister's legal guardian. I was twenty six, and to avoid 134 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: her going into the care home system, I had her 135 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: come and live with me, and she was around sixteen, 136 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: and legally in the UK, you get taken into the 137 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: care system and then when you're eighteen you can leave it. 138 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: So for two years I was struggling already and I 139 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: didn't even have an apartment. I was kind of counsurfing, 140 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: not having any income really, and I turned it all 141 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: around really quickly because I didn't want her to go 142 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 1: into the care system, so I had a lot of responsibility. 143 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: Suddenly I kind of inherited a teenager and I just 144 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:53,559 Speaker 1: became super responsible and super focused and ambitious, and then 145 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: I wasn't thinking about what it would lead to. I 146 00:08:55,920 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: was literally just thinking about affording our lives, both two 147 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: rents for two rooms in an apartment, and just like food. 148 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: Basically at that point in my life, I was just 149 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: trying to make the rent. In the early days, I 150 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: would be doing cabarets, I'd be writing songs, I would 151 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: be writing poetry. I'd be doing performance art pieces. I 152 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: would be leafleting and flying for club nights for money, 153 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 1: fly posting, running my own club night, which was monthly. 154 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: I would do some acting work, like in advertisements or 155 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:39,079 Speaker 1: little bits in small TV appearances and stuff. I was 156 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: magicians assisting. I was just like doing anything that anybody said, 157 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: do you want to do this? I would just say yes. 158 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,199 Speaker 1: And I also worked in the lingerie shop, and they 159 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: were really nice to me because like quite often things 160 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: would come in and I'd say I can't work for 161 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: two weeks, and they'd just kind of I saw me. 162 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:04,439 Speaker 1: The manager would lie and say that I was ill 163 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: or not there or there, but I wasn't. And sometimes 164 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: if they'd pay anywhere, like it was literally like everyone 165 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: was just so nice and so supportive because they knew 166 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: that I wasn't just a waste, that I was like 167 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: doing it because I had support my teenage sister. 168 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 2: And around this time, I want to make sure that 169 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: we weave in like the personal and professional as roaring through. 170 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 2: So I'm not sure entirely of the timeline, but around 171 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 2: this time, on the personal side, you had an abortion 172 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 2: in there, which I think is an important story for 173 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 2: us to talk about, because really the most of the 174 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 2: stories I get attention are these like very extreme ones 175 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 2: or being put out from anti abortion people to show 176 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 2: that people regret the abortions, when in fact it's quite 177 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 2: common and normal and makes things possible. Did you feel 178 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 2: like that was true for you? 179 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean when I became pregnant, I was twenty three. 180 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: I was living like a kind of warehouse that had 181 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: invested with mice full of artists, and it wasn't a 182 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 1: good situation. And the guy who I was pregnant by 183 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: I was an addict, and it didn't feel like a 184 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: good life. I didn't have money, I hadn't got anywhere 185 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: of my life, and I knew very early on that 186 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: I was pregnant. And yeah, and then I had an abortion, 187 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: which I really don't regret, and I don't think that 188 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: I would have achieved half of what I have if 189 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 1: i'd have kept that child. And I think that its 190 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: life wouldn't have been good because it would have had 191 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: a quite terrible father. And I mean, this is a 192 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: guy that eventually well and sold pictures of me to 193 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: the press when I became famous, like an opportunistic guy. 194 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: He's not decent and he did it for drug money, 195 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: like just awful. So yeah, I really think that was 196 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: an important thing that I did that I don't regret 197 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: at all. And I've actually been to the States before 198 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: and done like a tarot reading and because I was 199 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: killing some time, and this lady said to me in 200 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: the tarot reading, she said, there's an angry child contacting 201 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,839 Speaker 1: you and they want you to know they're upset. And 202 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 1: I said, we'll tell them. They'd be a lot more 203 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: upset if I'd have given birth to them. I think 204 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: it was her just like pushing her views on me. 205 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: She was like English person. People are very loose about 206 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 1: orphin in Britain, so she's just like she probably guessed, 207 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: but yeah, I would say she wasn't a genuine psychic. 208 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,959 Speaker 1: But yeah, that's how I feel about it. That's where 209 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: I stand on it, And particularly when we're talking about 210 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: so many circumstances where like children have been raped and 211 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: conceived babies and abused by family members and all kinds 212 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: of awful circumstance answers like mine's kind of a classic 213 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: case where you're like, oh, I'm too broke and I'm 214 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: too like I don't have a job and I'm too 215 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: irresponsible to give this child a good life. But I 216 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: know if I buy myself another decade, I'll be there. 217 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: And of course then I did, because I eventually had 218 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: two children by IVF. But I did have two children, 219 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: and I'm They're the best thing that's ever happened to me. 220 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,679 Speaker 1: But I'm the mum. I want to be for them. 221 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 2: As always, Paloma was unapologetically herself, and as her music 222 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 2: career began to take off, so did her public persona. 223 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: For me, I think that strangely, my observation of it 224 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: was that it wasn't until I started to do speaking 225 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: appearances that my music took off. So at first people 226 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: were like, yeah, I think it's quite good. But then 227 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: when I was on TV being cheeky and challenging people 228 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: all the time, everyone loved it in the UK and 229 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 1: then I could feel the change and I used to 230 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: literally it was back before streaming. It was all physical 231 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,959 Speaker 1: sales when I first started, but I would see myself 232 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: go from like number forty something in the charts to 233 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: literally like three or two overnight after I've been on 234 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: television so brilliant singer with George Michael had a chat 235 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: show would always be top of his wish list. That's right. 236 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 3: You got to have thank for fake to date. 237 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 4: And as you know, I am not shy of an 238 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 4: awkward situation. 239 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 3: No you direct, Yeah, so. 240 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 4: You want me to tell you the story? That's what 241 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 4: we did on chat shows. No, it's funny way. 242 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: The British public kind of loved it and it really 243 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: affected my reputation. And at the beginning of my career 244 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: as well, I wore some pretty crazy outfits and people 245 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: would like enjoy seeing what I was going to wear 246 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: to things and criticizing it and being like she's insane, 247 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: she looked terrible, and like it would just draw attention. 248 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 2: So when the music, when did it really take off? 249 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 2: Like when did it become the thing where you were like, oh, okay, 250 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 2: this is my career now. 251 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: Well, I didn't really believe that it was my career 252 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: until maybe three albums in because my mom and me 253 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: are always worried about the worst case scenario, so we 254 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: were always like, what am I going to do if 255 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: like I auditioned to be in Set to Slay after 256 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: my first album came out. My first album was number one, No, 257 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: it was number two in the UK charts, but I 258 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: still auditioned for seleg I was worried that I needed 259 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: a plan B and I got in, but then I 260 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: said no because my manager was like, you need to 261 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: do another album. So the music took off, and it 262 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: still feels sometimes like it's not quite what I'd imagined 263 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: because of my ambition. I feel like I haven't become 264 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: you know, I haven't got the global recognition that I 265 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: had at some point changed my view some point and 266 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: wanted and I had like number ones in Australia, and 267 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: I had some territories and I am kind of a 268 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: name now that people know internationally. But I just haven't 269 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: been able to tour internationally in the way that I 270 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: would like. So I still don't quite believe that it's 271 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: my career because I haven't really done everything that I 272 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: wanted to do with it. So I'm still going. 273 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 2: Well, that's I mean, that's a big part of the 274 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 2: thesis of our show is how your version of success 275 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 2: changes over time, and the version of success can be 276 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 2: If I'm going to do this as a performer, I'm 277 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 2: going to be global, and then you design your life 278 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 2: backwards from that. But like that is still your version 279 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 2: of success. I mean a lot of people would look 280 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 2: at the success you have now and say, yes, that 281 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 2: is what I'm trying to get to, but it's so personal. 282 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: Well, I always to people that when you see the 283 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: ladder that you want to get up, you get to 284 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: the top of the ladder and then you just see 285 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 1: another five ladders, Like you think, at the top of 286 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: that ladder will peak, but you won't. You'll just see 287 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 1: another ladder. You get to the top of that one, 288 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: and you see another ladder, and then you just keep 289 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: getting to the top and you're like, great, but tomorrow 290 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: I need to start going on that ladder. So I 291 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,360 Speaker 1: feel like that's what my life has felt like. 292 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:29,880 Speaker 3: Even though you may not have felt quite like it. 293 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 2: What do you think would be the pivot point for 294 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 2: you where the struggling was behind you and you became successful. 295 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 1: Well, my first record deal that I signed was not 296 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 1: a great one. It was quite bad. So I was 297 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: living in rented accommodation well into three albums, and people 298 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: would it had a shared entrance and people would I 299 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 1: was famous, and people would walk into my apartment who 300 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 1: would who were visiting the apartment upstairs and take pictures 301 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 1: of all my clothes and my things and post them 302 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 1: on social media. Because it did take me quite a 303 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: long time, I think that I was successful before I 304 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 1: made any money, So I think it's important to differentiate 305 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: between the two. Like there was a moment where I 306 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,439 Speaker 1: felt like I was being acknowledged for my creativity and 307 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 1: my art, which was after probably one album, But it 308 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: took me quite a lot of years to see any 309 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 1: income because the deal that I'd signed was not good. 310 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: It didn't work in my favor, and it wasn't until 311 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 1: I signed from album six and seven that I saw 312 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: a check that was life changing. And it was then 313 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 1: that I was able to buy my own house. And 314 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: then I had a child quickly after that. So that 315 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: was like my queue to say it's going to be fine. 316 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 2: After the break, we dive into the trade offs below. 317 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 2: I had to make to become a mother as her 318 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 2: career was peaking and her tumultuous fertility journey that she 319 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 2: was experiencing behind closed doors. 320 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: And then I had a child quickly after that. And 321 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: then so that was like my cue to say it's 322 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 1: going to be fine. But it felt strange because it 323 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 1: was almost like I waited. It felt very late to 324 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 1: have a child because it took so long to get 325 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: to a point where I felt like I wanted to 326 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: do that and be the mom I could be. And 327 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: then just as I was at kind of like the 328 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: peak where I was looking like I might have the 329 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: global success, I had number ones in multiple territories, I 330 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: was like making ways in different playess globally. And then 331 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: I was like, well, if I don't have a child, now, 332 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: I'm not going to have a child. So I did that, 333 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: and then I felt like that impacted my progress in 334 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 1: my work. But I do not for one second regret it, 335 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 1: because my kids are the most amazing thing that ever 336 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: happened to me and actually my biggest achievement, my biggest success. 337 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: But I feel like it's quite important to talk about 338 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: the kind of career and life span of a woman's 339 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 1: career when she's trying to have her children and have 340 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: a career, and it does impact us and it shouldn't. 341 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:33,880 Speaker 3: Well that's right. 342 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 2: I mean, the point at which people in any career, 343 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,199 Speaker 2: whether it's the time that they put a lot of 344 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 2: time in to being an artist then for it to 345 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 2: take off, or if it's in an office, you've put 346 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 2: your time in and you're now going to a managerial 347 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 2: position that squarely lines up with the reproductive years. 348 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: So yeah, I had like quite dramatic birth. I had 349 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: twenty one hours of labor, fourteen of which I was 350 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: trying to do a natural birth, but it couldn't because 351 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 1: she was premature anyway. So after fourteen hours, I did 352 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,239 Speaker 1: take some drugs which stopped the pain of it, but 353 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,199 Speaker 1: the baby was like everything. It was like spine to 354 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: spine breach, premature rupture of membranes, which meant I had 355 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: an infection. The baby was at this the heart rate 356 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: went down. It resulted after twenty one hours in the 357 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: emergency C section where I was projectile vomiting. Because we're 358 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: the contrary to popular belief, because I'm in music, I'm 359 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 1: like one of the only people in music. He's never 360 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,120 Speaker 1: tried a drug in my life because my dad's got 361 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: issues with addiction. So I just was always like, I know, 362 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: I think I've got the gene, I don't want it, 363 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: so I just am a workaholic instead. But because of that. 364 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: I find drugs really difficult. Even like in the hospital, 365 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 1: I was like, I hate my body hates it. So 366 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 1: I was really sick. And then we said in the 367 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: hospital for a week thinks kind of. No, it was 368 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: two weeks. It's normally a day in the UK. So 369 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: it was two weeks in the hospital because we were 370 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: both quite ill and then we're both at risk and 371 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: all kinds of things, and it was quite dramatic. And 372 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 1: then what was left behind was this scar, which meant 373 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: that my uterist was like a bit toxic after that, 374 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 1: which is really hot. That's why my books called mel Well. 375 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 2: You've said that giving birth is the closest that will 376 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 2: be to death until we actually die. I mean it 377 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 2: sounds like that was very true in your case, like 378 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 2: actually close. 379 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: I did feel close to death. And then I think 380 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 1: that I didn't realize that I had really severe postpartum 381 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: depression until it went because I'm like a get on 382 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 1: with it type of person. I just didn't realize that 383 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: I was mentally unwell. And I think that was for 384 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: a long time and I did lots of things like 385 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: I was still work and I think I had it 386 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: with both my children less so the second one because 387 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: I was mentally prepared for it. And I also went 388 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: back to work quicker after my second baby because I 389 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: knew that made me feel better. When I've gone back 390 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 1: to work, I felt better. So I went back to 391 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: work with the second one a lot faster, and I 392 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:20,719 Speaker 1: think it helps my mental health. 393 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 2: I think it's important to acknowledge when there is postpartum depression, 394 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 2: and I think that we often overly generally use the 395 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 2: term when I actually find it rational to be depressed. 396 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 2: But it's crazy. 397 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: It's like it's a response to something that's happening. So 398 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: I agree with you, Yeah, it's rational, it's not irrational, 399 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of self blame with it, like, 400 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: oh I had depression. I feel bad, but it was 401 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: that because it is life changing and it's crazy. And yeah, 402 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: and my book that I have out is called Milk 403 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 1: is basically quite a lot of stuff about that as well. 404 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,439 Speaker 1: Because when I actually had my children, I felt like 405 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: there was a lot of publications, a lot of writing 406 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: about the babies, like how do we look after the babies? 407 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 1: How do we think about the babies? And there wasn't 408 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: enough for me to read about how to think about 409 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 1: myself and how it affects me and my own identity 410 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 1: as a woman, because I've experienced so many things. I've 411 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: experienced feeling like I wouldn't have children because of fertility, 412 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: and then having children and how that impacts my career 413 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: and also now I'm a single parent, and that's all 414 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: in my book, so I discuss all of that. 415 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 2: One of the things that you wrote in the book 416 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 2: that I really connected with was about how actually disconnected 417 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 2: you felt from the babies and how it's often very boring. 418 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 2: I mean, that was something that I felt so much 419 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 2: shame about that I couldn't acknowledge it until, Like I 420 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 2: really wasn't very interested in my kids until they hit two, 421 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,479 Speaker 2: because then they could talk back, they were interesting, they 422 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 2: had their own p personalities. Everything before that I felt 423 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 2: like was basically a burden and I didn't feel a 424 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 2: response back. And only once the last of my three 425 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 2: kids hit two I felt comfortable saying that because otherwise 426 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 2: I didn't know that I could say out loud that 427 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 2: I didn't feel connected to my kids as babies, and 428 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 2: then like look a person in the eye after they 429 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 2: had I felt like they would be judging me too hard. 430 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: But I agree, like I was expecting that to look 431 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: at the babies when they were born and be like, 432 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm in love with you. But I 433 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 1: was like, who are you like? They never they didn't 434 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: look like what I think they'd looked like, and I 435 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: was like, who are he's this person? And yeah, I agree, 436 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: But I think that's what my book's about, is that 437 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,439 Speaker 1: you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. 438 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 2: When we come back, we talk about another difficult decision 439 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 2: for Paloma, when she and her partner separated, and the 440 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 2: comments and judgments she still feels from society, and how 441 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 2: she explores those themes in her book, Milk Stay Tuned. 442 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: I think that's what my book's about, is that you're 443 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 1: damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. 444 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 2: Well, I think you set this up very well in 445 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 2: your book to talk about you know, you're kind of 446 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 2: damned if you do, damned if you don't, and that 447 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 2: that also played into your relationship with your partner. 448 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 3: There were just different expectations. 449 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: Well, I personally think your damn if you do, damned 450 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: as you don't. But if you care, if you analyze 451 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: the way you parent, then you're a good parent basically, 452 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 1: like you're going to make mistakes. But if you're like, oh, 453 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,160 Speaker 1: maybe I made a mistake, then you're a good parent. 454 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: If you're just like, yeah, I'm amazing, Like they'll say, well, 455 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 1: they can get you're probably not a great parent. But like, 456 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: but like with the dads, they don't sit there and 457 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: think did I make a mistake? Did I do this? 458 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 1: They don't lay in bed at night thinking did I 459 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: ordered uniform? Did I buy their favorite ice lolly? Did 460 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: I like just laying in bed, like what's the emotional 461 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: impact of the fact that I said this to them earlier? 462 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: Like oh my god, they're going to bring that up 463 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: in therapy whatever it is. It's like women lay and 464 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: do that. I don't understand why men don't. And then 465 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: when they do very little, everyone says how lucky that 466 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: you are, because it's like, oh, it's so nice that 467 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 1: people are Even now it's like I'm like I'm a 468 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: single mum and they're like, oh, do you have time off? 469 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: And it's like, well, yeah, he takes his kids two 470 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: nights a week, and they're like, oh, you're so lucky. 471 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: You're so lucky that you get that two nights a 472 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: week great. Actually, I have to say it is great 473 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: just for. 474 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 3: The record, and actually sounds great. 475 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: If anybody's out there dabbling with the idea of like, 476 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: I'm kind of annoyed with my husband, it's going to 477 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 1: be awful if we break up. That is one of 478 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 1: the perks. There are some terrible awful parts of it, loneliness, depression, 479 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 1: or everything lies with you. But those two nights a 480 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 1: week were absolute list. I couldn't stand it if I 481 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: had to do fifty to fifty childcare, like this kind 482 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: of neoliberal ideal of like, yeah, we share everything, don't 483 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: want it. I don't want that. Don't get me wrong 484 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: when I complain about how little he does. I'm pleased 485 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 1: because I want my kids with me as much as possible. 486 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: I think I'd be so miserable if I had to 487 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: do a week on a week off. I'd be devastated. 488 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 1: I couldn't do it, and I don't envy anybody who 489 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: has to go through that. And I've spoken to people 490 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: who do because the court said they did it, and 491 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: I just feel my heart goes out to them. But 492 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: I'm kind of lucky that my ex really is just 493 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: happy with two nights a week and then my and 494 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: they're brilliant nights. I get like either do nothing or 495 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: go out or whatever. It's great. But everyone's like, you're 496 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: so lucky that he's present in their life, Like commended 497 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: for presents right with both parents. Why are we plauding 498 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: that he doesn't pay child's support right? 499 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 3: The bar is so incredibly low. 500 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're like, oh, it's Ray showed off their party, 501 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: their birthday party that you organize, paid for and sent 502 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: the invites out for. 503 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 2: I mean, you are such an involved mom and you 504 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 2: know that you're a good parent, and the British press 505 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 2: has attacked you for being what you call a shit parent. 506 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 2: I mean everybody that digs anybody like whether you know, 507 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 2: if you hear somebody else say, whether it's in the 508 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 2: press or not, Like we're all I actually think we 509 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 2: have kids the same age, we're about the same age. 510 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 2: I think that our cohort of moms did come up 511 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 2: during this period of like this is the perfect thing 512 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 2: you can do to have the perfect. 513 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 3: Way to have your kids, and it was like it 514 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 3: was too much. 515 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: Well, the thing is, it's cultural. So in the States, 516 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: my observation is that when people come from nothing and 517 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: then make something of themselves. It's clite celebrated and people 518 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: are you know, whereas in Britain we like to resent 519 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: people who get out of poverty. We like to resent 520 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: people who should have been in the slums like us, 521 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: and they did it, so we want to bring them down. 522 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: In the press, we want to tear it apart. So 523 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: there's not a lot they can go on with me. 524 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: And what it started with was the fact that I'd 525 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: said I didn't agree with gender specific toys, which then 526 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: snowballed in the press. Is me saying I'm parenting my 527 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: children gender neutral, which actually is fine if anyone wants 528 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: to do it. And so because it wasn't what I 529 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: was doing, but because I was protective of people that were, 530 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: I kind of stood up for it. And then I 531 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: was like, so what if I am even though I wasn't, 532 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: But I was just like, I was like, I'm a 533 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: person for the LGBTQ plus community, so what if I'm 534 00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: bringing them up as they them? And basically I started 535 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: arguing that point even though I had just called them 536 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: she and then just I regularly talk to them about 537 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: if they ever want me to change it, I'm down, 538 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: which is true, but I just do it because that's 539 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 1: what they are today. That doesn't mean that they will 540 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: be there in ten, twenty years or whatever. I don't 541 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: know why this is a controversial opinion, but I tend 542 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: to like commit to loving my child for whoever they 543 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 1: are from birth to whoever they want to be, which 544 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: is essentially good parenting. But I was told as a 545 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: child abuser by many people because of it, and it 546 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: was literally me just backing the way I was raised, 547 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: which was that my arm was like, there's no gender toys. 548 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: Like I mean, I've thought every little boy I ever 549 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: knew a mini little hoover as a present because I'm like, 550 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: no one wants a guy sitting on the sofa, so 551 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: start hoovering now, because we don't want those type of boyfriends. 552 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 3: No, I'm doing everyone I'm doing I. 553 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,959 Speaker 1: Think the society and like I was raised playing. You know, 554 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: I have Mecano, I have construction toys. I had Lego, 555 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: I had doctor's kids, I had you know, lots of 556 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: things most kids should. But we also need to make 557 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: sure that little boys are holding baby dolls and little 558 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: girls are given science kits. That's my argument totally. 559 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 2: I mean that I feel like we've done a pretty 560 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 2: decent job of showing girls that they can have options 561 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 2: and the range of options. I actually think we haven't 562 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 2: done a good enough job of showing boys that they 563 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 2: can have options, and those options can be things like 564 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 2: sensitivity can be like access to their full range of emotions. 565 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: Or like I want to grow up and work with children. 566 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: That's my ambition, right Like, I rarely hear little boys say. 567 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 3: That to me. 568 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 2: Right Like, I feel like it's doing boys a disservice 569 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 2: to not be able to access their full range of 570 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 2: potential if we're not showing them examples of it and 571 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 2: not giving them up options for things like giving them 572 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 2: a hoover or you know, say they want to work 573 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 2: with children, or also acknowledging that they might be sensitive 574 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 2: or sad or you know, upset about something that they 575 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 2: can't access that emotion like they have to be able 576 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 2: to Can you tell us something. It can be something 577 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 2: we've discussed or something different, but something that at the 578 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 2: time you saw it as a real low point, like 579 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 2: you thought, oh God, I'm never goinging out of this, 580 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 2: and now, in hindsight, you see it as having really 581 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 2: set you up for the success that you are now. 582 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: So many of them. Like I think, with experience, you 583 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 1: realize that time is always moving and that's the beauty 584 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 1: of it. So everything's impermanent. Even your greatest moments will 585 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: be impermanent just as much as your worst moments. So 586 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: sometimes you have to really take stock and like save 587 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: for those great moments as well, because they'll be fleeting too. 588 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: But I feel like I really hit bottom when I 589 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: broke up with my children's dad. I felt like I've 590 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: failed my kids. I felt like we wouldn't be happy 591 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: again because I was really low for a long time 592 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,399 Speaker 1: and I wrote an album about it, called The Glorification 593 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,399 Speaker 1: of Sadness, which I also felt. I didn't know how 594 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: I could write music again after that, because I felt 595 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,879 Speaker 1: like that was it, Like I would never feel as 596 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: much as I did in that circumstance. But I have 597 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: started writing music again, and I wrote at that time 598 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: when I was When I looked back on it, I 599 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: really bonded with my children. I kept them so close, 600 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: and I think our relationship specter as a result. And 601 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,839 Speaker 1: I wrote a book and I wrote this album, and 602 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: I also did some acting bits, and like I can't 603 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: believe because I was in a fuzz and a haze. 604 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: What I actually managed to do was probably it kind 605 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 1: of birthed a version of me that's much more confident 606 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: to try lots of things. I don't think i'd have 607 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 1: a podcast if i'd not done that. I feel like 608 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: I've lost my inhibit I never really was inhibited, but 609 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm even worse now, Like I'm totally 610 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: prepped and ready to become a very gassy older lady 611 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: and I don't care, and I'm pleased with the person 612 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 1: I am today because of it, And I think I 613 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: can feel that my children are happier as a result, 614 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: because sometimes I think all they need is us to 615 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 1: be happy, and they're happy, and it really like projects 616 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 1: onto them. So I don't regret it anymore. But for 617 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: a while I felt like it was maybe a mistake 618 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,399 Speaker 1: and that I should have sat in my sadness for 619 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 1: their sake. But now I don't feel like that. I 620 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 1: feel that they're really happy and everything feels good because 621 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: I'm really happy. 622 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 3: Do you think you'll pivot again? 623 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 1: I think it constantly happens in life, like I look 624 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: back and they'll be I would have answered that question 625 00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: differently ten years ago and i'd have said my word 626 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:01,800 Speaker 1: bottom was that I thought my mum was going to 627 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 1: die because she had cancer. It's true, but then she survived, 628 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,319 Speaker 1: and then loads of great things happened after that, and 629 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 1: I had a great career and all of those things. 630 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,280 Speaker 1: But like it depends, like you're only what you've experienced. 631 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,280 Speaker 1: But I do think that I appreciate the sad times 632 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,280 Speaker 1: as much as the good good times because they inform 633 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 1: my creativity. 634 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, so thank you so much, Paloma. I've so enjoyed 635 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 2: having you on. 636 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 1: Thank you, it's been such a pleasure. Thank you, and 637 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: thanks for giving me so much space to speak. 638 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 2: Paloma lives in the UK with her two beautiful children 639 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 2: and is still creating and making the world a brighter 640 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 2: and better place. Be sure to follow her on Instagram 641 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,839 Speaker 2: at Paloma Faith stay up to date with all her 642 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 2: latest happenings. I can't believe we are already at the 643 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:54,799 Speaker 2: end of yet another season. 644 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 3: But don't worry, we'll be back soon with more amazing stories. 645 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 2: In fact, if you know anyone who has made a 646 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 2: personal or professional pivot, send us a DM or submit 647 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 2: them on our website. We're just taking a short break 648 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 2: and we'll be back with more inspiring stories soon. Be 649 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,279 Speaker 2: sure to follow us on Instagram at she pivots the 650 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 2: Podcast and sign up for our newsletter to stay up 651 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 2: to date on all the latest happenings. 652 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:18,879 Speaker 3: Talk to you soon. 653 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to this episode of she Pivots. I 654 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 2: hope you enjoyed it, and if you did, leave us 655 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 2: a rating and tell your friends about us. To learn 656 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,319 Speaker 2: more about our guests, follow us on Instagram at she 657 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,839 Speaker 2: pivots the Podcast, or sign up for our newsletter, where 658 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 2: you can get exclusive behind the scenes content on our 659 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 2: website at she pivots thepodcast dot com. This episode was 660 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 2: produced and edited by Emily Atavelosik, with sound editing and 661 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 2: mixing from Nina Pollock, Audio production and social media by 662 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 2: Hannah Cousins, research by Christine Dickinson, and logistics and planning 663 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 2: by Emma Stopic and Kendall Krupkin. She Pivots is proud 664 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,720 Speaker 2: to be a part of the iHeart Podcast Network. 665 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 4: I endorse he Pivots.