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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Did you miss me? Did you want to hear

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Speaker 1: my voice? Hello? Hello, fellow revisionist historians. This is Malcolm Gladwell.

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Speaker 1: Season three is almost ready to go. We are this close,

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Speaker 1: and as a reward for your patients, I thought I'd

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Speaker 1: give you a little gift. It's a live conversation I

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Speaker 1: did with my friend Adam Grant at the ninety second

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Speaker 1: Street Why in New York City a few weeks ago.

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Speaker 1: We've done this before The Why when his last book

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Speaker 1: came out. I interviewed him there on stage, and now

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Speaker 1: he wanted to interview me, which is daunte Because Adam

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Speaker 1: is a very big deal professor of psychology at the

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Speaker 1: University of Pennsylvania. He's written best sellers like Give and Take,

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Speaker 1: Originals and Option B with Cheryl Sandberg. He's a winner

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Speaker 1: of all kinds of awards. He's the kind of person

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Speaker 1: who if you email him some question, he'll write you

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Speaker 1: back in like two minutes with this brilliantly thought out

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Speaker 1: dissertation and you think, how did he do that? Oh?

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Speaker 1: And on aside, Adam and I still use a BlackBerry.

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Speaker 1: I know, I know, And since we both get a

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Speaker 1: lot of grief for that, we have explanatory signature lines

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Speaker 1: under our BlackBerry emails. His is sent from my BlackBerry

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Speaker 1: because I'm a lott ied and I believe in supporting

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Speaker 1: the Canadian economy. Mine is sent from my BlackBerry because

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Speaker 1: there's no school like old school. Not to get competitive

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Speaker 1: about this, but mine's way better. What you are about

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Speaker 1: to hear is a conversation about the workplace, which is

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Speaker 1: Adam's specialty. Now why exactly he thought I would have

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Speaker 1: anything intelligent to say about the workplace is unclear, since

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Speaker 1: I work in coffee shops. So a lot of what

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Speaker 1: follows is just me pretending to know something that I don't,

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Speaker 1: which has never happened before.

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Speaker 2: I have to say, you're my favorite sparring partner in

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Speaker 2: the sense that you really take joy in intellectual disagreement.

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Speaker 2: I've discovered that I do too, and so my hope

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Speaker 2: is that we will disagree on some things tonight.

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Speaker 1: Good.

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Speaker 2: When we do, I hope you take that as a

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Speaker 2: sign that I respect your opinion enough to want to

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Speaker 2: change it all right, And ideally I will win more

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Speaker 2: of these arguments than I lose.

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Speaker 3: Yes, is that fair and ground rules?

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Speaker 1: Sure? Yeah, I didn't know. I'm happy to lose arguments

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Speaker 1: to you anytime you want.

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Speaker 3: Great, Yeah, you should do this more often. I'm so

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Speaker 3: glad you're here.

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Speaker 2: So the place I wanted to start is to say that,

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Speaker 2: you know, when I think about work life, we both

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Speaker 2: spend a huge part of our work lives thinking about

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Speaker 2: human behavior and trying to understand it and make sense

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Speaker 2: of it and maybe even make it a little bit better.

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Speaker 3: And I think, you know, we're both.

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Speaker 2: In jobs that have a pretty strong monopoly on that right,

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Speaker 2: between journalism and social science. I'm curious outside of our jobs,

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Speaker 2: what you would say is the occupation that has the

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Speaker 2: most insight into human nature and human behavior?

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean there are obvious ones. Teachers would be

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Speaker 1: the first, and by extension, and then all of the

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Speaker 1: professions attached to that. So my brother is a principal.

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Speaker 1: I always feel like in the position he's in, he's

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Speaker 1: a principle of an elementary school, so he interacts with kids,

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Speaker 1: their parents, and then the teachers who have to deal

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Speaker 1: with the kids and the parents. It strikes me that

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Speaker 1: you have a very powerful lens on human beings when

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Speaker 1: you're particularly because parents are never more crazy than when

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Speaker 1: they are interacting with the teachers.

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Speaker 4: Of their children.

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Speaker 2: So you're going to nominate principles teachers. My instinct was comedians.

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Speaker 2: I think as a comedian you have to understand not

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Speaker 2: only what will make people.

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Speaker 3: Laugh, but also what's right on the edge of making

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Speaker 3: people uncomfortable.

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Speaker 2: And that requires a lot of insight into the immediate

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Speaker 2: reactions that your audience is going to have. And so

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Speaker 2: I think comedians are master psychologists.

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Speaker 1: Oh I agree, disagree, totally disagree, because who invited you?

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Speaker 4: Think about this?

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Speaker 1: No? No, think about this atom so I have I'm

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Speaker 1: using the principal teachers as my model using the comedian.

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Speaker 1: The thing that's difficult about the teacher is that the

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Speaker 1: teacher is dealing with people in a natural environment in

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Speaker 1: real time, and there is an infinite variety in the

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Speaker 1: circumstances and the kinds of people that they have to

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Speaker 1: interact with. The comedian, by contrast, is dealing with people

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Speaker 1: in a tightly controlled setting with a rich set of

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Speaker 1: expectations governing their behavior, where they get to turn down

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Speaker 1: the lights, dose everyone with alcohol, you know, and create

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Speaker 1: an expectation that laughter is the appropriate response to what

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Speaker 1: they're doing. I cannot imagine a better set of circumstances

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Speaker 1: the easier set of circumstances for navigating a situation than those.

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Speaker 2: So if that's true, when are you ready for your

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Speaker 2: first stand up performance?

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Speaker 1: I would If you're asking me, that's not the right.

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Speaker 1: The best question is if you're asking me, would I

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Speaker 1: rather teach a class of first graders or do a.

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Speaker 4: Stand up performance?

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Speaker 1: And the answer is I would do a stand up

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Speaker 1: performance a million times before I would teach a class

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Speaker 1: of first graders.

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Speaker 4: I am really harder.

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Speaker 2: I cannot wait to present you with both options and

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Speaker 2: see what you really choose.

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Speaker 1: But way, how could you?

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Speaker 4: It's not even close by the way stand up.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that stand up comedians do that

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Speaker 1: drives me crazy is that they like to pretend that

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Speaker 1: their profession is this terrifying death defying, you know, high

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Speaker 1: wire act. Have you ever given a performance before a

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Speaker 1: group of people who have been drinking they are putting

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Speaker 1: in your hands. It's like they're just they're sitting there,

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Speaker 1: they're dosed up with alcohol, waiting to be entertained. That

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Speaker 1: is about as far as you can get from a

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Speaker 1: room full of first graders as is human leader imaginable.

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Speaker 3: I think there's some truth to that.

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Speaker 2: I also think though that the nice thing about about

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Speaker 2: kids is that the situations repeat over and over again.

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Speaker 2: So you only have a certain number of ways that

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Speaker 2: kids can misbehave and that parents can be difficult, and

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Speaker 2: you get to practice over and over again the responses

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Speaker 2: that you want to have, and over time that becomes

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Speaker 2: a skill and it becomes expertise.

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Speaker 1: Wait, you don't think comedians practice over Of course they do.

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Speaker 3: Of course they do, but your audience very so much.

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Speaker 2: Try to give an improv performance in a new country

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Speaker 2: for the first time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but they don't do that. They go to Vegas

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Speaker 1: and they go to the comedy cellar and they go

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Speaker 1: to I.

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Speaker 3: Mean, they're hanging out with the wrong comedian.

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Speaker 4: No, what's my point.

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Speaker 1: They control their environments. No one controls their environments better

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Speaker 1: than comedians. That's how they manage to do what they

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Speaker 1: do right.

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Speaker 2: And so you don't think that still requires deep insight

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Speaker 2: into human behavior or psychology.

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Speaker 1: Not deep insight. No, talking to drunk people requires some insight.

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Speaker 4: But it's not.

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Speaker 2: You're maybe doing it right. Now, let's shift cares a

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Speaker 2: little bit. I want to talk about your work life.

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Speaker 2: So I'd love to hear a little bit about your

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Speaker 2: creative process and where your ideas come from, how you

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Speaker 2: develop them, and any insights for our audience on how

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Speaker 2: to be a little bit more creative.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, I did an episode of my podcast

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Speaker 1: last year called The King of Tears, which is all

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Speaker 1: about why is that country music can do sad songs

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Speaker 1: and rock and roll can't. And one of the things,

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Speaker 1: one of the points I made was something that I've

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Speaker 1: believe very strongly for a long time, which is that

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Speaker 1: country music can be sad when rock and roll can't

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Speaker 1: because country music is specific and specificity is something I've

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Speaker 1: become increasingly interested in as a trait of interestingness, that

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Speaker 1: all the interesting people I know are people whose speech

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Speaker 1: and thinking has a great deal of specificity to it.

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Speaker 1: So I was listening, for example, to a interview with

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Speaker 1: Rostambat Moglige, who's.

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Speaker 3: The Is that a person?

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Speaker 1: Yes, he's a brilliant musician who was one half of

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Speaker 1: Vampire Weekend before they broke up. And I happen to

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Speaker 1: know his brother, who's also a brilliant director, and they

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Speaker 1: have the same quality when they talk about what they do,

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Speaker 1: there is this brilliant level of specificity, so they don't

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Speaker 1: just say I really loved that film by Alfred Hitchcock,

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Speaker 1: which is what ninety percent of us would say. What

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Speaker 1: Zell will say is if you watch that film by Hitchcock,

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Speaker 1: in the thirty second moment, there's this scene where this happens,

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Speaker 1: and so and so says this, and the camera does this,

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Speaker 1: and in that moment you realize this right. And Ross

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Speaker 1: did the same thing. He was talking about the song

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Speaker 1: he'd written, and as he went through the song, didn't

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Speaker 1: he identified the points of his influence.

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Speaker 4: He zeroed in on.

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Speaker 1: Exactly the moment in the song from nineteen sixty nine

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Speaker 1: that he heard when he was a kid in high

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Speaker 1: school in nineteen eighty nine. And you know, Blenny was

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Speaker 1: here when he heard it, and that guitar, you know,

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Speaker 1: and you realize that's why you listen to him. And

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Speaker 1: that quality of being specific and being able to illustrate

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Speaker 1: your larger points with that kind of precision is the

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Speaker 1: quality of what makes something interesting. Ever since I've come

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Speaker 1: to understand this, that has informed the way I look

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Speaker 1: for ideas. So I try I'm trying to be I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to be as precise as possible in how I

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Speaker 1: illustrate an idea and to understand that in the service

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Speaker 1: of illustrating an idea, you don't have to skate over that.

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Speaker 1: You don't want to skate over the surface.

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Speaker 2: But isn't that what you've always done, right, Like, here's

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Speaker 2: a story about a statue, and oh my gosh, that

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Speaker 2: changes your entire understanding of intuition. And here's a story

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Speaker 2: about a hockey team or a soccer team, and all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden, you know, we're going to reimagine how

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Speaker 2: success works and think it's much more ut luck and

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Speaker 2: opportunity than.

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Speaker 1: We Yeah, but I think I did it in the

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Speaker 1: beginning without realizing that's what I was doing. So you

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Speaker 1: asked me what my creative process is and the answers.

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Speaker 1: I've only recently become kind of conscious of it, and

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Speaker 1: I realized, you know, with a podcast, you have to

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Speaker 1: crank up the specificity even more so, you because now

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Speaker 1: you're listening to somebody's voice. In order to engage someone

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Speaker 1: who's only experiencing this through their ears, you need to

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Speaker 1: ramp up the precision.

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Speaker 2: So I have a different I guess, a different take

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Speaker 2: on interestingness, which comes from a sociologist Murray Davis, who

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Speaker 2: wrote this beautiful paper decades ago called That's interesting, where

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Speaker 2: he said ideas survive not because they're true, but.

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Speaker 3: Because they're interesting, and you're like, huh, that's interesting. This

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Speaker 3: is bad news.

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Speaker 2: But then he's kind of proving his point in a

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Speaker 2: meta way, and then he says, well, what makes an

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Speaker 2: idea interesting? He says, what makes an idea interesting is

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Speaker 2: when it departs from conventional wisdom. If something just affirms

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Speaker 2: your assumptions, you don't get curious, you don't get intrigued,

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Speaker 2: there's no surprise, and you're like, whoop, confirmation bias.

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Speaker 3: All good.

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Speaker 2: When you're interested is when you're like, huh, that's that's

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Speaker 2: the opposite of what I would have thought, or that's

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Speaker 2: different from what I would have believed. I don't think

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Speaker 2: specificity gets you there. I think if you know, if

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Speaker 2: you have a really specific story that confirms everything I

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Speaker 2: always thought was true about the world, I'm not that

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Speaker 2: excited if you have a specific theory that I've read

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Speaker 2: a Malcolm Gladwell book generator once that created fake book

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Speaker 2: titles of yours, and one of them that I remember

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Speaker 2: was nothing what sand Castles can tell us about North Korea?

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Speaker 2: Like that's interesting, right, I'm like, wow, I never would

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Speaker 2: have thought that a sand castle could explain North Korea. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and so don't don't you think that specificity needs.

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Speaker 3: To be coupled with surprise?

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Speaker 1: Sure? Good way. I rest the case that guys, thank

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Speaker 1: you all so much for that guy's theory of it.

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Speaker 1: What's interesting? Not terribly interesting?

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Speaker 4: I used to I.

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Speaker 2: Mean, yeah, so Davis then creates this is the worst

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Speaker 2: thing for a social scientist to do, but he creates

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Speaker 2: a typology of the interesting, and he says, there are

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Speaker 2: all these different ways that you can challenge an assumption.

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Speaker 2: But I think what is interesting is he says, but

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Speaker 2: not all assumptions want to be challenged, and so an

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Speaker 2: interesting idea is one that challenges your weekly held assumptions,

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Speaker 2: whereas if you challenge somebody strongly held assumptions, they just

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Speaker 2: say you're.

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Speaker 4: Wrong or you're stupid. That's good, that's fun.

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Speaker 2: You've been working on the fit topic around questions of

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Speaker 2: what does it take to be effective or successful or

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Speaker 2: a high performer? And you know, how much does my

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Speaker 2: environment and whether I fit it matter? And I'd love

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Speaker 2: to talk about that.

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Speaker 3: So can you tell us first what you've been doing there?

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Speaker 4: Well?

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Speaker 1: I had I wanted to talk about basketball, because right

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Speaker 1: now the NBA is this lovely little case study in

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Speaker 1: fit to backtrack basketball. The kind of intuitive position of

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Speaker 1: basketball is it's the sport where talent matters most and

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Speaker 1: coaching an organizational fit matter least. If you put Lebron

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Speaker 1: on a team of also rans, you can basically guarantee

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Speaker 1: you and make the playoffs. And he actually has made

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Speaker 1: the finals several times with teams, so it's like it

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Speaker 1: doesn't really matter who's with Lebron. He's you know, you

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Speaker 1: can put a bunch of stiffs and it's fine.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: In fact, the two greatest teams basketball teams of all time,

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Speaker 1: the mid nineties Chicago Bulls were three superstars and then

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Speaker 1: two very ordinary players. Their fifth player was a big, slow,

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Speaker 1: white guy from Australia. And if you look at this

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Speaker 1: Warriors of two years ago, they were three superstars and

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Speaker 1: then their fifth player was a big, slow, lumbering white

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Speaker 1: guy from Australia.

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Speaker 4: Like it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: You could just go to Australia and like get some

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Speaker 1: random guy and he can be your fifth. So, but

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Speaker 1: what's happening now in basketball? There's a couple examples in

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Speaker 1: this season that sort of go against that one is

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Speaker 1: that one of the best guards in the game this

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Speaker 1: season was this guy named Victor Oladipo on OKAYC and

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Speaker 1: was considered a disaster. And he simply moves teams to

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Speaker 1: a new environment with a presuming a better coach. He's

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Speaker 1: longer playing with Russell Westbrook, who's probably a very difficult

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Speaker 1: person to play with, and simply by moving teams, he

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Speaker 1: went from being someone who was why they considered to

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Speaker 1: be a bust someone would be washing out of the

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Speaker 1: league sooner, or a media coal player into this suddenly

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Speaker 1: a superstar who's kind of playing transcendently.

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Speaker 4: The reverse is also true that the best coach.

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Speaker 1: In the league is probably Brad Stevens of the Boston Celtics.

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Speaker 3: I second that.

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Speaker 1: And every time a very promising player is traded from

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Speaker 1: the Boston Celtics, they turn out to be terrible, Like

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Speaker 1: they just leave Boston and they go on to the

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Speaker 1: team like, oh, wait a minute, the guy actually Jake

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Speaker 1: Crowder is a good example. Everyone was like, oh, Jake

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Speaker 1: Crowder's really good. Oh, then Boston trades him, Like oh god,

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Speaker 1: they traded Jake Crowder. Wow, I don't know if they

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Speaker 1: can survive without Jake Croder. Jake Crowder goes to the

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Speaker 1: Cleveland Cavaliers and like they all of a sudden, people realize, oh,

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Speaker 1: Jake Crowder is actually not any good. He just was

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Speaker 1: good on Boston.

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Speaker 2: And there's another piece of I think evidence for your theory,

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Speaker 2: which is this season they've lost their two biggest stars

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Speaker 2: and the first time they got better, and the second

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Speaker 2: time they were way better than they should have been.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's like, now, is this always true in basketball?

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but we're certainly in this moment in

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Speaker 1: basketball it seems like it's very, very, very coach dependent.

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Speaker 1: And when you see those I've given a couple those,

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Speaker 1: those specific example and total examples, you then begin to

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Speaker 1: wonder how many players on basketball teams who we consider

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Speaker 1: mediocre are actually really good but just in the wrong environment.

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Speaker 1: Is Victor oladepot Is he an exception or is he

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Speaker 1: part of a larger trend? And I am increasingly of

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Speaker 1: the opinion that there must be lots of Victor olidepots

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Speaker 1: out there.

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Speaker 3: I think there are, and I think they're not just

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Speaker 3: in basketball.

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Speaker 2: So this makes me think of study of cardiac surgeons,

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Speaker 2: where you track their performance over the course of the day,

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Speaker 2: And the question is how many surgeries do they have

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Speaker 2: to perform with let's say, minimally invasive robot technology before

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Speaker 2: they get to the point where they're up the learning curve.

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Speaker 2: And I read in a book once that an average

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Speaker 2: of ten thousand hours could be helpful. That does not

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Speaker 2: turn out to be the case. Practice has no effect

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Speaker 2: whatsoever in that context, and they are as deadly on

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Speaker 2: surgery number one hundred and a thousand as they were

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Speaker 2: on number one.

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Speaker 3: And this is weird, right, because we're supposed to learn

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Speaker 3: from experience.

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Speaker 2: And so what Huckman and Pisano did was they broke

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Speaker 2: down the data by which hospital you're performing surgery at,

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Speaker 2: and they said, well, what's the effect of practice at

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Speaker 2: Hospital A on your performance at Hospital A versus then

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Speaker 2: Hospital B. And they found that surgeries were hospital specific,

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Speaker 2: so that every surgery I performed at Hospital A, at

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Speaker 2: least up to a certain point, reduced the patient mortality

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Speaker 2: rate by about one percent. But then later that afternoon,

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Speaker 2: as a surgeon, I go over to hospital B and

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Speaker 2: it's like I'm starting over and I have none of

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Speaker 2: that experience. And the reason is I have a different

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Speaker 2: team who knows my strengths and weaknesses, and we've developed

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Speaker 2: a set of effective routines. And that kind of suggests

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Speaker 2: that performance and skill and expertise is team specific, it's

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Speaker 2: context specific. And then you see the same thing in

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Speaker 2: financial services companies, and so that makes me think that

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Speaker 2: people you surround yourself with really matter.

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Speaker 1: Discuss well, does this suggest that we Isn't it a

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Speaker 1: lot more rational for me? If I'm you know, the

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Speaker 1: University Toronto and I want to poach Adam Grant, why

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Speaker 1: don't I poach you and all of the colleagues who

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Speaker 1: you think make you as good as you are? Why

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Speaker 1: isn't it routine for businesses to try and hire the group?

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Speaker 2: So twenty twelve, I was asked to speak at a

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Speaker 2: Google event. I walked in and Larry Page was on stage,

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Speaker 2: and they told me they wanted me to explain how

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Speaker 2: I would run Google as an organizational psychologist.

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Speaker 3: What would I do differently?

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Speaker 2: And this is exactly the point I made to them,

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Speaker 2: is I said, you know, if you look at your

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Speaker 2: greatest innovations from you know, the Google search engine, all

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Speaker 2: the way across a few more recent ones, they've almost

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Speaker 2: all been a diet or a team.

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Speaker 3: And yet you hire.

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Speaker 2: Individuals, you reward individuals, You promote individuals, you fire individuals.

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Speaker 2: What if you did what Grosberg calls a lift up

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Speaker 2: and you hired entire teams, but.

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Speaker 3: You didn't just do that.

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Speaker 2: You promoted teams, you rewarded teams, and when a team failed,

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Speaker 2: you fired the whole group as opposed to the individual.

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Speaker 3: And they got really excited about it.

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Speaker 2: And then they did the math of how much work

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Speaker 2: it was going to be to keep a team together,

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Speaker 2: and they said, this is just not practical. And so

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Speaker 2: instead they said, we're going to study what makes our

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Speaker 2: teams great and then try to create more of those

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Speaker 2: conditions so that anyone can join any team and become great.

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Speaker 3: But I'm a big fan of this.

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Speaker 1: Does what they wanted to do make any sense? Or

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Speaker 1: does that sound like a cop like Silicon Valley cop out?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 2: I think it makes a lot of sense. So you've

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Speaker 2: seen the research.

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Speaker 1: Having observed that teams outperform individuals, they said that they

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Speaker 1: would rather than use teams, just study the individuals in

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Speaker 1: the no.

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Speaker 2: No, So they wanted to study the qualities of great

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Speaker 2: teams and how to enable any team even if they

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Speaker 2: hadn't shown excellence together to reach that level of success.

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Speaker 1: It seems insanely convoluted in the way that I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's not enough to take a very simple idea that

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Speaker 1: a team that is observed to work well should be

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Speaker 1: kept together and continue to work well there. Instead want

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Speaker 1: to kind of abstract out the quality and recreate it

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Speaker 1: over there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think I think they're do.

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Speaker 1: You see what I'm saying. We'll get so smart that

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Speaker 1: the obvious thing is no longer satisfactory. Like, no, no, Adam,

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Speaker 1: I can think of a way that's way harder and

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Speaker 1: way more complicated and ultimately might work as well.

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Speaker 4: I think we should do that way.

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Speaker 3: Definitely. No. Look, I think there are two complications.

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Speaker 2: One is, over seventy five percent of of airline accidents

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Speaker 2: happened the first time a crew is flying together. And

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Speaker 2: the evidence goes so far on this that NASA did

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Speaker 2: a simulation showing that if you had a crew that

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Speaker 2: was well rested flying together for the first time, they

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Speaker 2: made more errors than a sleep deprived crew that had

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Speaker 2: just pulled an all nighter but had flown together before.

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Speaker 2: And you talk to airlines about this, and you say

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Speaker 2: you should force right pilots to work together, like we

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Speaker 2: logistically we can't do it, Like there's no way to

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Speaker 2: organize these flight mapping schedules so that everybody is always

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Speaker 2: together and that you know, I think Google has a

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Speaker 2: version of that challenge, right, as do most companies. The

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Speaker 2: other challenge, which which I think in some ways is bigger,

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Speaker 2: And there's such a thing as too much shared experience.

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Speaker 2: So in the NBA, teams max out on probability of

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Speaker 2: success round three or four years together, and then once

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Speaker 2: they have more than four years of shared experience, there

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Speaker 2: are odds of winning go down.

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Speaker 3: And maybe they're just getting.

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Speaker 2: Old the players by that point, but a lot of

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Speaker 2: it seems to be routine rigidity, and that you become

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Speaker 2: more predictable, you stop innovating, stop adapting, and other teams

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Speaker 2: can develop ways to defeat you. And so you know,

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Speaker 2: I'd worry a lot about saying, hey, we've got a

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Speaker 2: really successful team, let's just go let them be great

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Speaker 2: until they suck.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I do think though, that there's some interesting questions this raises.

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Speaker 2: So if we go back to the idea of fit

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Speaker 2: and we say, all right, so you know, we know

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Speaker 2: that people perform better with a team they understand well

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Speaker 2: or a team that they fit into the natural extension

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Speaker 2: of that is to say, Okay, when I go into a.

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Speaker 3: Company, I got to figure out what the people are like.

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Speaker 3: It might be.

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Speaker 2: Values, personalities, skill sets, and I want to go join

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Speaker 2: a place where I belong. And I guess two questions

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Speaker 2: for you. The first one is how do you recommend

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Speaker 2: doing that? And then secondly, what do you think of

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Speaker 2: the problems associated with it?

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Speaker 1: Well, so it's funny because I have an episode of

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Speaker 1: my podcast this season where I deal with this question

442
00:21:11,636 --> 00:21:16,156
Speaker 1: quite explicitly, and it's all about a very brilliant military

443
00:21:16,196 --> 00:21:20,036
Speaker 1: guy who goes into at a crucial moment in his

444
00:21:20,156 --> 00:21:24,836
Speaker 1: country's history, goes into government service and works for I say,

445
00:21:24,916 --> 00:21:27,236
Speaker 1: non military government service. What's one of the weird things

446
00:21:27,236 --> 00:21:30,316
Speaker 1: about military guys is that when they refer to the government,

447
00:21:30,356 --> 00:21:32,876
Speaker 1: they don't refer to the military, like as if the

448
00:21:33,076 --> 00:21:35,316
Speaker 1: military is not the government, which I always find quite charming.

449
00:21:38,236 --> 00:21:42,516
Speaker 1: So he goes into a standard Washington bureaucracy as a

450
00:21:42,556 --> 00:21:46,076
Speaker 1: Marine Corps guy, and what happens is mayhem, in a

451
00:21:46,116 --> 00:21:50,316
Speaker 1: certain sense, he's too good for the job. One of

452
00:21:50,316 --> 00:21:53,356
Speaker 1: the things he does is he realizes his predecessor had

453
00:21:53,396 --> 00:21:56,116
Speaker 1: never left Washington, and this is an agency that has

454
00:21:56,116 --> 00:21:58,796
Speaker 1: far flung operations all over the world. And he's like,

455
00:21:59,036 --> 00:22:02,756
Speaker 1: that's crazy. And he then visits absolutely every one of

456
00:22:02,796 --> 00:22:07,236
Speaker 1: the four hundred field offices of his organization in three years,

457
00:22:07,436 --> 00:22:08,916
Speaker 1: at the same time as he gives two hundred and

458
00:22:08,916 --> 00:22:12,716
Speaker 1: fifty the speeches, testifies before Congress, writes hundreds of articles

459
00:22:12,996 --> 00:22:14,636
Speaker 1: just because he's a Marine Corps guy. And that's what

460
00:22:14,636 --> 00:22:17,196
Speaker 1: they do. They're like, they're in a hurry, they're really

461
00:22:17,236 --> 00:22:19,756
Speaker 1: super organized, they're busy, and they don't do a job

462
00:22:19,756 --> 00:22:20,596
Speaker 1: and less are going to do it well.

463
00:22:20,676 --> 00:22:20,876
Speaker 3: Right.

464
00:22:21,516 --> 00:22:24,676
Speaker 4: That is not the way bureaucracies work.

465
00:22:24,516 --> 00:22:27,716
Speaker 1: You know, and for good reason, you don't want bureaucracies

466
00:22:28,036 --> 00:22:30,956
Speaker 1: run by Marine Corps guys. The worst thing that can

467
00:22:31,036 --> 00:22:33,196
Speaker 1: happen if you're in a bureaucracy, is it the bureaucracy

468
00:22:33,276 --> 00:22:34,956
Speaker 1: gets really really good.

469
00:22:35,516 --> 00:22:35,756
Speaker 4: Right.

470
00:22:36,076 --> 00:22:38,756
Speaker 1: That's the end of freedom as we know it, the

471
00:22:38,796 --> 00:22:41,036
Speaker 1: thing that saves it. And I don't mean this, I'm

472
00:22:41,076 --> 00:22:44,236
Speaker 1: not being funny. I'm being dead serious. We are our

473
00:22:44,316 --> 00:22:49,276
Speaker 1: liberties are imperiled by overly competent bureaucrats.

474
00:22:49,436 --> 00:22:52,436
Speaker 4: Right, So this guy like.

475
00:22:52,596 --> 00:22:57,596
Speaker 1: Super super competent, is it's just a tragic misfit in

476
00:22:57,676 --> 00:22:59,996
Speaker 1: a standard Washington bureaucracy.

477
00:23:00,156 --> 00:23:01,716
Speaker 4: Now, why doesn't he adapt?

478
00:23:02,196 --> 00:23:05,316
Speaker 1: Well, he could adapt, I think if he'd left as

479
00:23:05,356 --> 00:23:08,196
Speaker 1: a thirty five year old Marine Corps colonel. But he

480
00:23:08,276 --> 00:23:11,556
Speaker 1: leaves at six D two at that point in his career,

481
00:23:11,556 --> 00:23:14,476
Speaker 1: it's more problematic than it would have been earlier. I

482
00:23:14,476 --> 00:23:17,676
Speaker 1: think government service is a really good example of this,

483
00:23:17,916 --> 00:23:23,036
Speaker 1: because the culture of government service is so specific and

484
00:23:23,236 --> 00:23:27,036
Speaker 1: in some ways so counterintuitive that you know, we persist,

485
00:23:27,076 --> 00:23:30,036
Speaker 1: for example, in this country, in thinking that business success

486
00:23:30,116 --> 00:23:33,996
Speaker 1: is a useful predictor of political success, and it's not.

487
00:23:34,636 --> 00:23:37,236
Speaker 1: Couldn't be more different, Right, The kind of skills you

488
00:23:37,276 --> 00:23:39,956
Speaker 1: need to navigate the political process are not the ones

489
00:23:39,996 --> 00:23:41,636
Speaker 1: you learn running a company.

490
00:23:41,996 --> 00:23:44,396
Speaker 2: I think where you know where this gets tricky for

491
00:23:44,436 --> 00:23:46,436
Speaker 2: me is if we go back to your Marine guy,

492
00:23:47,076 --> 00:23:50,076
Speaker 2: I would say there's a study that Chad Hartnell led

493
00:23:50,116 --> 00:23:52,556
Speaker 2: that was published recently which showed that.

494
00:23:52,556 --> 00:23:55,316
Speaker 3: The more you misfit, the more you contribute.

495
00:23:55,436 --> 00:23:57,716
Speaker 2: And so if you were to read an organizational culture,

496
00:23:57,956 --> 00:24:01,236
Speaker 2: we could distinguish them on task versus relational values. Right,

497
00:24:01,316 --> 00:24:05,156
Speaker 2: So task oriented organizations are high efficiency, high productivity. They're

498
00:24:05,156 --> 00:24:08,156
Speaker 2: all about getting stuff done. Relational organizations are much more

499
00:24:08,196 --> 00:24:11,236
Speaker 2: community oriented. They're all about family, and they're independent. You

500
00:24:11,236 --> 00:24:14,116
Speaker 2: could be high on both, but oftentimes organizations that maximize

501
00:24:14,156 --> 00:24:16,556
Speaker 2: on one don't the other. And what Chad found is

502
00:24:16,556 --> 00:24:18,956
Speaker 2: that if you bring a leader into the c suite,

503
00:24:19,276 --> 00:24:22,196
Speaker 2: if the organization's culture is more task focused, the relational

504
00:24:22,276 --> 00:24:26,116
Speaker 2: leader actually adds more value because they're not redundant. And so,

505
00:24:26,276 --> 00:24:28,156
Speaker 2: you know, I would say the marine guy is exactly right.

506
00:24:28,156 --> 00:24:30,036
Speaker 2: The commandant is exactly who you want to put into

507
00:24:30,036 --> 00:24:32,796
Speaker 2: government because he's providing something that is sorely lacking.

508
00:24:33,276 --> 00:24:35,956
Speaker 1: Yeah, except I should have added in this specific instance,

509
00:24:36,676 --> 00:24:39,356
Speaker 1: the policy that he was so brilliantly enacting was a

510
00:24:39,436 --> 00:24:42,596
Speaker 1: terrible policy. Anyways, it works really well when you give

511
00:24:42,916 --> 00:24:45,996
Speaker 1: you know, that task oriented person orders that make sense.

512
00:24:46,436 --> 00:24:48,196
Speaker 1: In this case, we gave him orders that made no.

513
00:24:48,156 --> 00:24:50,036
Speaker 3: Sense, got it. I guess you know.

514
00:24:50,076 --> 00:24:52,316
Speaker 2: There's a paradox here, though, which is, you know, we're

515
00:24:52,356 --> 00:24:55,316
Speaker 2: all happier and more comfortable in organizations that fit our values,

516
00:24:55,636 --> 00:24:58,596
Speaker 2: and yet sometimes it's the ones that diverge or clash

517
00:24:58,676 --> 00:25:02,076
Speaker 2: where we can contribute the most or differentiate ourselves the most.

518
00:25:02,396 --> 00:25:05,116
Speaker 2: How do you think about resolving that paradox and you're

519
00:25:05,156 --> 00:25:08,076
Speaker 2: writing a book about how we gauge strangers. How do

520
00:25:08,116 --> 00:25:10,996
Speaker 2: you think about sizing up a new organization, a new culture,

521
00:25:10,996 --> 00:25:12,436
Speaker 2: a new workplace, a new boss.

522
00:25:14,556 --> 00:25:19,236
Speaker 1: I think that we undersample new situations. We make up

523
00:25:19,236 --> 00:25:22,916
Speaker 1: our minds far too quickly, and we're pressured to make

524
00:25:22,996 --> 00:25:24,436
Speaker 1: up a better way of saying, we're pressure to make

525
00:25:24,476 --> 00:25:26,396
Speaker 1: up our minds far too quickly. I don't know why

526
00:25:26,436 --> 00:25:29,316
Speaker 1: we would logically expect that someone ought to be able

527
00:25:29,316 --> 00:25:33,076
Speaker 1: to size up a new organization in over the course

528
00:25:33,116 --> 00:25:36,756
Speaker 1: of a bunch of lunches with managers there who are

529
00:25:36,796 --> 00:25:37,276
Speaker 1: interviewing you.

530
00:25:37,876 --> 00:25:38,956
Speaker 4: That seems silly to me.

531
00:25:39,756 --> 00:25:42,556
Speaker 1: I happen to be a big carnt a liverit the cars,

532
00:25:43,076 --> 00:25:45,916
Speaker 1: and one thing I have found is that you can't

533
00:25:45,956 --> 00:25:48,276
Speaker 1: size up a car on a test drive. It's the

534
00:25:48,276 --> 00:25:50,996
Speaker 1: most ridiculous thing in the world. So you're about to

535
00:25:50,996 --> 00:25:53,476
Speaker 1: spend an enormous sum up money on a car, and

536
00:25:53,876 --> 00:25:55,556
Speaker 1: you go for the test drive, and the test.

537
00:25:55,436 --> 00:25:58,556
Speaker 4: Drive is basically they go around the block with you.

538
00:25:59,116 --> 00:26:02,236
Speaker 1: It's nonsense, right, It's almost as if they're afraid of

539
00:26:02,276 --> 00:26:05,156
Speaker 1: you actually driving the car before purchasing it, which is

540
00:26:05,156 --> 00:26:08,436
Speaker 1: a very odd position for an automobile salesman to take that.

541
00:26:08,516 --> 00:26:11,356
Speaker 1: They are you know, they are anxious about you having

542
00:26:11,596 --> 00:26:13,876
Speaker 1: too much experience with their product before you buy it.

543
00:26:15,436 --> 00:26:17,196
Speaker 1: And they don't seem to think this is a problem.

544
00:26:17,476 --> 00:26:19,316
Speaker 1: They seem to think that if you just sit in

545
00:26:19,356 --> 00:26:21,516
Speaker 1: the car, you can somehow into it.

546
00:26:22,516 --> 00:26:24,596
Speaker 4: You know, all that's good and bad about that autmobile.

547
00:26:24,756 --> 00:26:27,236
Speaker 3: Just but I really enjoy how much this bothers you.

548
00:26:27,276 --> 00:26:27,836
Speaker 1: Oh drives?

549
00:26:28,116 --> 00:26:28,916
Speaker 3: It's a car, right?

550
00:26:28,916 --> 00:26:31,036
Speaker 2: If this were like you can only go on three

551
00:26:31,116 --> 00:26:33,036
Speaker 2: dates with someone before you're allowed to decide whether you

552
00:26:33,036 --> 00:26:33,716
Speaker 2: want to marry them.

553
00:26:33,756 --> 00:26:36,396
Speaker 3: I get getting upset. But this is a car. Who cares?

554
00:26:37,036 --> 00:26:37,716
Speaker 1: Would you drive?

555
00:26:41,236 --> 00:26:42,316
Speaker 3: I'm not entirely sure.

556
00:26:42,476 --> 00:26:44,116
Speaker 4: Like a you're like a Honday you got like a

557
00:26:44,156 --> 00:26:46,116
Speaker 4: Hyundai from.

558
00:26:45,916 --> 00:26:49,076
Speaker 2: I've never driven a hondaiy. But a car is solely function.

559
00:26:49,156 --> 00:26:50,716
Speaker 2: It gets me from one place to another.

560
00:26:50,836 --> 00:26:52,716
Speaker 1: Well to my point, Yeah, I don't.

561
00:26:52,516 --> 00:26:53,436
Speaker 3: Care how it drives.

562
00:26:53,596 --> 00:26:55,916
Speaker 4: Yeah, you really not know what? Tells?

563
00:26:56,036 --> 00:26:57,396
Speaker 1: Come on, tells? What are you driving?

564
00:26:59,316 --> 00:27:01,636
Speaker 2: Actually, I'm not entirely sure what it is. My wife

565
00:27:01,636 --> 00:27:05,796
Speaker 2: picked it out. My wife loves cars. She picked it out,

566
00:27:06,036 --> 00:27:10,396
Speaker 2: and I drive it occasionally. Interesting, all right, A couple

567
00:27:10,356 --> 00:27:12,076
Speaker 2: of other things I want to ask you about if

568
00:27:12,116 --> 00:27:14,236
Speaker 2: you were the CEO of a large company, what are

569
00:27:14,316 --> 00:27:16,996
Speaker 2: the first policies you would either kill or create that

570
00:27:17,076 --> 00:27:19,836
Speaker 2: would change the way that work life is experienced in

571
00:27:19,876 --> 00:27:20,676
Speaker 2: your organization.

572
00:27:21,636 --> 00:27:25,276
Speaker 1: Oh, that's super interesting. Well, i'd like I mean, I'm

573
00:27:25,396 --> 00:27:28,396
Speaker 1: very in my way back in Tipping Point, I wrote

574
00:27:28,436 --> 00:27:31,996
Speaker 1: about this whole idea of keeping groups under one hundred

575
00:27:32,036 --> 00:27:35,436
Speaker 1: and fifty, and I thought about that since, and I

576
00:27:35,476 --> 00:27:38,836
Speaker 1: do think that I would try and keep sections of

577
00:27:38,876 --> 00:27:42,516
Speaker 1: the company small and independent under one fifty if possible.

578
00:27:42,796 --> 00:27:45,476
Speaker 1: I just think people enjoy themselves much more when they

579
00:27:45,516 --> 00:27:47,436
Speaker 1: know of when that they're working with, and when there

580
00:27:47,476 --> 00:27:51,156
Speaker 1: is that extra element, when there is that social bond

581
00:27:51,676 --> 00:27:55,116
Speaker 1: in addition to kind of formal things keeping people together,

582
00:27:55,196 --> 00:28:00,996
Speaker 1: that's just much more powerful. I would take people's physical

583
00:28:00,996 --> 00:28:06,476
Speaker 1: health far more seriously. I think that I that, I mean,

584
00:28:06,476 --> 00:28:08,396
Speaker 1: it sounds very Scandinavian.

585
00:28:08,916 --> 00:28:11,756
Speaker 3: And why did you say that pejoratively?

586
00:28:11,956 --> 00:28:14,116
Speaker 1: Well, because if you're Canadian and you grew up in

587
00:28:14,116 --> 00:28:17,276
Speaker 1: the seventies and in the eighties and Canada, one of

588
00:28:16,996 --> 00:28:22,476
Speaker 1: the principal advertisers in Canada is the Canadian government, and

589
00:28:22,596 --> 00:28:24,716
Speaker 1: which is unusual because it doesn't happen here, but and

590
00:28:24,756 --> 00:28:27,236
Speaker 1: what the Canada government used to do far more actually

591
00:28:27,276 --> 00:28:28,956
Speaker 1: in that period is that they would buy all this

592
00:28:29,076 --> 00:28:31,876
Speaker 1: time on the radio and TV to make certain arguments

593
00:28:31,916 --> 00:28:34,516
Speaker 1: about how we could be better Canadians. And invariably the

594
00:28:34,596 --> 00:28:38,836
Speaker 1: arguments about being better Canadians involved holding up Scandinavians as

595
00:28:38,836 --> 00:28:41,116
Speaker 1: a role model. So they would always tell us that, well,

596
00:28:41,156 --> 00:28:44,516
Speaker 1: the Swedes live, you know, four years longer than the

597
00:28:44,556 --> 00:28:47,956
Speaker 1: average Canadian, and or the Swede, you know, the Norwegians

598
00:28:47,996 --> 00:28:50,596
Speaker 1: are running twenty miles a week, whereas the average Canadian

599
00:28:50,676 --> 00:28:54,316
Speaker 1: runs barely at all. I mean it so as a kid,

600
00:28:54,756 --> 00:28:57,756
Speaker 1: constantly like walking around with this kind of vague anxiety

601
00:28:57,756 --> 00:29:00,916
Speaker 1: that I was not living up to the Scandinavian model.

602
00:29:01,196 --> 00:29:04,836
Speaker 2: Secretly those ads were funded by the Scandinavian governments, but.

603
00:29:04,756 --> 00:29:07,076
Speaker 1: I always, I mean, with the passive time, I've come

604
00:29:07,676 --> 00:29:10,756
Speaker 1: to look more fondly on that, and I still think

605
00:29:10,796 --> 00:29:14,076
Speaker 1: they have a lot of things right, you know, like

606
00:29:14,236 --> 00:29:16,716
Speaker 1: if you go to Amsterdam and everyone's cycling the work

607
00:29:17,796 --> 00:29:19,996
Speaker 1: and you just think, how fantastic is this? And the

608
00:29:20,036 --> 00:29:23,036
Speaker 1: thing is it works because everyone's doing it. The thing

609
00:29:23,276 --> 00:29:25,356
Speaker 1: all of our problems with cycling the work have to

610
00:29:25,356 --> 00:29:27,076
Speaker 1: do with the fact that we don't want to be

611
00:29:27,116 --> 00:29:29,836
Speaker 1: the only person on the road cycling, right, But once

612
00:29:29,876 --> 00:29:32,836
Speaker 1: everyone's cycling, it's fine. So that's sort of what they've

613
00:29:32,876 --> 00:29:36,036
Speaker 1: understood in Amsterdam. Like my I once had dinner with

614
00:29:36,076 --> 00:29:39,436
Speaker 1: my Dutch publisher who was a woman in her sixties,

615
00:29:39,596 --> 00:29:42,276
Speaker 1: and it was it was March, and at the end

616
00:29:42,316 --> 00:29:46,636
Speaker 1: of dinner she disappeared into the bathroom and emerged in

617
00:29:46,716 --> 00:29:50,516
Speaker 1: a wetsuit. I was like, like, where are you going?

618
00:29:50,836 --> 00:29:53,276
Speaker 1: And she was like, oh, I'm cycling home now, and

619
00:29:53,516 --> 00:29:56,876
Speaker 1: she underwater. No I mean when I say, I mean

620
00:29:56,916 --> 00:29:58,796
Speaker 1: like a you know, like a full on kind of

621
00:29:59,156 --> 00:30:03,036
Speaker 1: zip up. And she got into a bicycle and she

622
00:30:03,036 --> 00:30:05,676
Speaker 1: she rode eight miles through the rain home and she

623
00:30:05,796 --> 00:30:08,436
Speaker 1: did that every day. I just thought that was so fantastic.

624
00:30:08,676 --> 00:30:11,436
Speaker 4: Anyway, were I CEO, I would like to somehow.

625
00:30:11,996 --> 00:30:13,996
Speaker 1: I just think people are much happier when they get

626
00:30:13,996 --> 00:30:17,156
Speaker 1: a chance to regularly exercise, and sadly that doesn't most

627
00:30:17,156 --> 00:30:18,596
Speaker 1: people's schedules don't allow for that.

628
00:30:18,836 --> 00:30:20,556
Speaker 2: So, as an avid runner, what does that look like?

629
00:30:20,596 --> 00:30:23,436
Speaker 2: Does your company have exercise breaks built into the day.

630
00:30:24,076 --> 00:30:25,756
Speaker 1: My company's clearly not going to make a lot of

631
00:30:25,756 --> 00:30:28,116
Speaker 1: money since we're going to be working out a lot,

632
00:30:28,156 --> 00:30:30,836
Speaker 1: but really and really wealthy.

633
00:30:31,036 --> 00:30:33,156
Speaker 4: You know, my farming.

634
00:30:33,236 --> 00:30:35,516
Speaker 1: For me to hold up Joyce Global as an example

635
00:30:35,556 --> 00:30:39,236
Speaker 1: of that's my mother as an example of work life,

636
00:30:39,596 --> 00:30:42,836
Speaker 1: because my mother had a very unique perspective on work,

637
00:30:42,836 --> 00:30:44,676
Speaker 1: which was it never occurred to her that the point

638
00:30:44,676 --> 00:30:47,116
Speaker 1: of work was to make money. She had a whole

639
00:30:47,116 --> 00:30:50,476
Speaker 1: list of things that came first. But one of Joyce

640
00:30:50,516 --> 00:30:54,876
Speaker 1: Globwell's great observations was that whenever she got a job,

641
00:30:54,916 --> 00:30:57,636
Speaker 1: as she had in the second half of her career,

642
00:30:57,916 --> 00:30:59,716
Speaker 1: she the first thing she would do is she would

643
00:30:59,756 --> 00:31:01,556
Speaker 1: go to her boss and she would say, look, I

644
00:31:01,636 --> 00:31:04,236
Speaker 1: know I could work full time, but it's pointless I

645
00:31:04,276 --> 00:31:07,356
Speaker 1: can get if you let me work, you know, halftime,

646
00:31:07,436 --> 00:31:09,636
Speaker 1: I can get just as much work done and I'm

647
00:31:09,636 --> 00:31:11,596
Speaker 1: gonna be happier and you're going to be happier.

648
00:31:11,676 --> 00:31:13,196
Speaker 4: And they would always agree after she.

649
00:31:13,196 --> 00:31:15,356
Speaker 1: Pointed out that this was and I think she's kind

650
00:31:15,356 --> 00:31:18,756
Speaker 1: of right that much of what people do can be

651
00:31:18,876 --> 00:31:22,436
Speaker 1: accomplished if they are happy and well rested, and can

652
00:31:22,476 --> 00:31:25,156
Speaker 1: be accomplished in some fraction of the time they currently

653
00:31:25,156 --> 00:31:27,596
Speaker 1: spend on the job. So I'm not sure whether my

654
00:31:27,676 --> 00:31:33,116
Speaker 1: company loses money. I think a reasonably productive place. My father,

655
00:31:33,836 --> 00:31:38,836
Speaker 1: a mathematician, once was offered a job at Yale, and

656
00:31:38,916 --> 00:31:42,036
Speaker 1: so he left for the weekend to go and for

657
00:31:42,076 --> 00:31:44,596
Speaker 1: the week to visit yale'spend a week there, came back.

658
00:31:44,636 --> 00:31:46,316
Speaker 1: We were all on pins and needles. We'll be moving

659
00:31:46,676 --> 00:31:50,836
Speaker 1: to New Haven and he said, so, you know, what

660
00:31:50,876 --> 00:31:50,996
Speaker 1: was it?

661
00:31:51,036 --> 00:31:51,556
Speaker 4: What was like?

662
00:31:51,836 --> 00:31:53,996
Speaker 1: He's like, no, it's not happening. I said, We're like,

663
00:31:54,156 --> 00:31:56,876
Speaker 1: why you didn't like Yale? Yale famous place, he goes.

664
00:31:57,876 --> 00:32:00,356
Speaker 1: I got in there at nine o'clock. They are all

665
00:32:00,396 --> 00:32:02,956
Speaker 1: at their desks. I left at five. They were still

666
00:32:02,956 --> 00:32:03,596
Speaker 1: at their desks.

667
00:32:06,076 --> 00:32:07,636
Speaker 3: This is not gonna work.

668
00:32:07,476 --> 00:32:11,476
Speaker 2: When you who came out with David and Goliath, I

669
00:32:11,796 --> 00:32:15,756
Speaker 2: remember talking, and you know, I was thinking that you're

670
00:32:15,956 --> 00:32:18,116
Speaker 2: you wrote this book about underdogs because you love to

671
00:32:18,196 --> 00:32:21,716
Speaker 2: root for the underdog, and you said no. And to

672
00:32:21,716 --> 00:32:24,236
Speaker 2: this day I'm surprised and puzzled about why, and I'm

673
00:32:24,276 --> 00:32:25,556
Speaker 2: hoping I can get to the bottom of it.

674
00:32:25,916 --> 00:32:27,396
Speaker 3: Why do you root for the favorite?

675
00:32:29,916 --> 00:32:33,556
Speaker 1: I believe that's the only truly empathetic position to take,

676
00:32:35,516 --> 00:32:36,516
Speaker 1: and that you're right.

677
00:32:36,556 --> 00:32:39,196
Speaker 3: I feel a lot of empathy for the New York Yankees.

678
00:32:39,116 --> 00:32:40,116
Speaker 4: Rooting for the underdog.

679
00:32:40,196 --> 00:32:45,116
Speaker 1: Is a form of moral weakness, and I'll explain why.

680
00:32:46,436 --> 00:32:51,196
Speaker 1: So you have two people are competing. One person is

681
00:32:51,236 --> 00:32:56,276
Speaker 1: expected to win, one person is not expected to win. Right.

682
00:32:56,996 --> 00:32:57,996
Speaker 4: If the person who.

683
00:32:57,836 --> 00:33:02,596
Speaker 1: Is not expected to win doesn't win, they're mildly disappointed,

684
00:33:02,676 --> 00:33:05,556
Speaker 1: but not massively disappointed because they didn't expect to win.

685
00:33:06,236 --> 00:33:09,796
Speaker 1: If the person who is expected to win doesn't win,

686
00:33:10,476 --> 00:33:13,516
Speaker 1: they are massively disappointed because the gap between their expectation

687
00:33:13,636 --> 00:33:15,396
Speaker 1: and reality is enormous.

688
00:33:15,556 --> 00:33:16,396
Speaker 4: They're suffering.

689
00:33:16,956 --> 00:33:21,676
Speaker 1: They go home devastated, their lives are over, they want

690
00:33:21,676 --> 00:33:25,156
Speaker 1: to give up everything. They go through a massive soul searching.

691
00:33:25,436 --> 00:33:27,796
Speaker 1: They wander off into the desert without water or food.

692
00:33:28,156 --> 00:33:29,276
Speaker 1: Their lives are living hell.

693
00:33:29,676 --> 00:33:30,276
Speaker 4: If you are a.

694
00:33:30,236 --> 00:33:33,556
Speaker 1: Truly empathetic person, where does your sympathy lie with the

695
00:33:33,596 --> 00:33:35,676
Speaker 1: person who's like, well, I didn't I didn't win, but

696
00:33:35,716 --> 00:33:37,316
Speaker 1: you know I wasn't gonna win anyway, So what was

697
00:33:37,356 --> 00:33:40,076
Speaker 1: the point? Or is your sympathy with a person who

698
00:33:40,156 --> 00:33:44,156
Speaker 1: was wandering helplessly through the desert without benefit of food

699
00:33:44,196 --> 00:33:46,516
Speaker 1: and water because they lost something that they had every

700
00:33:46,556 --> 00:33:50,516
Speaker 1: expectation they would win. Where's your heart at them? You're like, oh,

701
00:33:50,516 --> 00:33:51,716
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go with the underdog.

702
00:33:51,876 --> 00:33:56,276
Speaker 2: No, that is so sick and twisted, sick, twisted, callous.

703
00:33:58,156 --> 00:33:59,236
Speaker 4: There's so much wrong.

704
00:33:59,076 --> 00:34:00,636
Speaker 2: With your reasoning there. I don't know where to start.

705
00:34:01,036 --> 00:34:02,956
Speaker 2: So first of all, I will grant you the point,

706
00:34:03,036 --> 00:34:05,036
Speaker 2: Tim Urban's here in the audience, and here's this great

707
00:34:05,036 --> 00:34:08,116
Speaker 2: equation that says happiness is reality and minus expectations.

708
00:34:09,156 --> 00:34:09,916
Speaker 3: And that's true.

709
00:34:10,236 --> 00:34:12,876
Speaker 2: And so I think you're you're absolutely right that the

710
00:34:12,956 --> 00:34:15,916
Speaker 2: favorite is going to be more disappointed if they lose

711
00:34:16,236 --> 00:34:17,436
Speaker 2: than if the underdog loses.

712
00:34:17,796 --> 00:34:19,156
Speaker 3: But what you're not accounting.

713
00:34:18,836 --> 00:34:21,196
Speaker 2: For is all the joy the favorite had the last

714
00:34:21,196 --> 00:34:23,596
Speaker 2: five times the Patriots won the Super Bowl. So I

715
00:34:23,596 --> 00:34:25,396
Speaker 2: don't have a lot of empathy for Tom Brady. He

716
00:34:25,436 --> 00:34:27,316
Speaker 2: still has his five rings, he still has his chin.

717
00:34:28,236 --> 00:34:31,476
Speaker 2: He's going to be fine, whereas the Eagles, you know,

718
00:34:31,596 --> 00:34:35,116
Speaker 2: suffering through many, many years of almost being great. No,

719
00:34:35,196 --> 00:34:39,076
Speaker 2: it's not about it's a recent and salient exall as

720
00:34:39,116 --> 00:34:43,196
Speaker 2: a native Well yeah, anyway, but think about think about

721
00:34:43,236 --> 00:34:45,316
Speaker 2: the fact that that Tom Brady has a whole bank

722
00:34:45,356 --> 00:34:49,796
Speaker 2: of joy built up over decades, and poor Nick Foles

723
00:34:49,836 --> 00:34:52,196
Speaker 2: has been struggling his whole career and he gets to

724
00:34:52,436 --> 00:34:54,276
Speaker 2: catch a touchdown pass in the Super Bowl.

725
00:34:54,436 --> 00:34:58,276
Speaker 1: You can't reconfigure the kind of principles of human psychology

726
00:34:58,316 --> 00:35:01,476
Speaker 1: in service of your own Philadelphia inferiority complex.

727
00:35:02,036 --> 00:35:03,516
Speaker 4: That's essentially what's happening here.

728
00:35:03,556 --> 00:35:06,996
Speaker 3: Though you are on home turf. This is not fair.

729
00:35:07,596 --> 00:35:10,996
Speaker 2: But no, I could play this story out for any group, right,

730
00:35:11,276 --> 00:35:13,396
Speaker 2: the teams that have won, the individuals that have already

731
00:35:13,396 --> 00:35:16,356
Speaker 2: been on top, they have already enjoyed the fruits of

732
00:35:16,836 --> 00:35:17,596
Speaker 2: experiencing that.

733
00:35:17,956 --> 00:35:19,396
Speaker 3: Here's a problem with this, don't you wait a minute?

734
00:35:19,436 --> 00:35:19,716
Speaker 3: Hold on.

735
00:35:19,756 --> 00:35:22,476
Speaker 2: You claim to believe in social justice. You do, and

736
00:35:22,516 --> 00:35:24,956
Speaker 2: so you basically want to maintain inequality and just let

737
00:35:24,956 --> 00:35:27,596
Speaker 2: the winners keep winning. And yet you wrote a whole

738
00:35:27,596 --> 00:35:31,476
Speaker 2: book about how you want to create opportunities for David

739
00:35:31,516 --> 00:35:32,436
Speaker 2: to become Goliath.

740
00:35:32,716 --> 00:35:33,996
Speaker 3: So you should be rooting for David.

741
00:35:34,196 --> 00:35:38,996
Speaker 1: No, the book was an abstract exercise in understanding how

742
00:35:39,036 --> 00:35:43,836
Speaker 1: a socially maladaptive outcome, the underdog winning couldn't be understood.

743
00:35:44,076 --> 00:35:44,556
Speaker 1: That's all.

744
00:35:44,716 --> 00:35:46,956
Speaker 4: Let me give you a understand is not let me

745
00:35:47,076 --> 00:35:47,476
Speaker 4: last thing.

746
00:35:47,636 --> 00:35:49,436
Speaker 1: Let me just explain to you how I first came

747
00:35:49,476 --> 00:35:53,476
Speaker 1: to this understanding. What you are overstating is the degree

748
00:35:53,476 --> 00:35:58,036
Speaker 1: of joy that accompanies an underdog's victory. The reason you're

749
00:35:58,076 --> 00:36:01,876
Speaker 1: overstating it is. You're forgetting the circumstances under which underdogs win.

750
00:36:02,436 --> 00:36:06,156
Speaker 1: So I first and most clearly formulated this principle of

751
00:36:06,236 --> 00:36:09,556
Speaker 1: rooting for the favorite during the nineteen seventy six Montreal

752
00:36:09,596 --> 00:36:12,956
Speaker 1: Olympics when Greg Joy, who was the overwhelming favorite to

753
00:36:12,956 --> 00:36:17,916
Speaker 1: win the long the high jump, lost to a Polish guy, Vloodek,

754
00:36:17,996 --> 00:36:21,956
Speaker 1: something who was nothing, who was like not even a

755
00:36:21,956 --> 00:36:25,436
Speaker 1: good Why because it rained that day and Greg Joy

756
00:36:25,756 --> 00:36:28,516
Speaker 1: depended was a very technique driven high jumper who needed

757
00:36:28,596 --> 00:36:32,516
Speaker 1: absolute precision in his when he planted his foot before

758
00:36:32,516 --> 00:36:35,396
Speaker 1: he jumped, it was rainy and wet his foot. He

759
00:36:35,436 --> 00:36:38,956
Speaker 1: was slipping and sliding. He lost, and like Glodek won

760
00:36:39,196 --> 00:36:42,796
Speaker 1: right now. Vlawdek for the rest of his life would

761
00:36:42,836 --> 00:36:46,156
Speaker 1: look at his gold medal and say, well, you know,

762
00:36:46,316 --> 00:36:48,356
Speaker 1: I only really won this because it was raining.

763
00:36:48,756 --> 00:36:51,276
Speaker 3: Wait, hold on, No one ever thinks that way.

764
00:36:51,476 --> 00:36:54,036
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, no, no, yeah, it's a tainted hold on,

765
00:36:54,116 --> 00:36:57,516
Speaker 1: tainted victory. But even today, even today, he looks at

766
00:36:57,756 --> 00:36:59,716
Speaker 1: he's got his He's probably doesn't have it in his

767
00:37:00,116 --> 00:37:02,156
Speaker 1: in a case on his wall. He's probably got it

768
00:37:02,196 --> 00:37:04,436
Speaker 1: in a tucked away and because he's slightly ashamed of it,

769
00:37:04,476 --> 00:37:08,196
Speaker 1: and his daughter says to him, Dad, how did you

770
00:37:08,316 --> 00:37:08,956
Speaker 1: do in this?

771
00:37:09,156 --> 00:37:10,556
Speaker 4: Have any six Olympics? And he says, I.

772
00:37:10,556 --> 00:37:13,476
Speaker 1: Don't want to talk about it because it's a little you.

773
00:37:13,676 --> 00:37:15,636
Speaker 3: I cannot let you get away with that. You have

774
00:37:15,756 --> 00:37:16,436
Speaker 3: claimed that that.

775
00:37:16,556 --> 00:37:19,716
Speaker 2: Ross and Nisbet gave you your worldview with the person

776
00:37:19,756 --> 00:37:21,476
Speaker 2: in the situation a book that they wrote based on

777
00:37:21,516 --> 00:37:24,116
Speaker 2: their research on attribution theory, which showed very clearly in

778
00:37:24,116 --> 00:37:27,596
Speaker 2: a shown for decades that human beings naturally attribute failures

779
00:37:27,636 --> 00:37:29,196
Speaker 2: to external forces and.

780
00:37:29,156 --> 00:37:30,596
Speaker 3: Successes to internal forces.

781
00:37:30,996 --> 00:37:33,836
Speaker 2: So Vlodik is going around thinking I am the world's

782
00:37:33,836 --> 00:37:36,596
Speaker 2: greatest high jumper, and not only that, I was able

783
00:37:36,596 --> 00:37:38,876
Speaker 2: to be great on a day where it rained when.

784
00:37:38,716 --> 00:37:41,796
Speaker 3: I was at a serious disadvantage. So eat that, Greg Joy.

785
00:37:44,716 --> 00:37:47,396
Speaker 1: I'm I'm not going to change your mind. I can

786
00:37:47,476 --> 00:37:49,036
Speaker 1: tell it's fine, go back to.

787
00:37:48,996 --> 00:37:51,956
Speaker 3: But are you going to change yours? No? Are you?

788
00:37:53,876 --> 00:37:56,076
Speaker 2: You don't want the underdog to have a chance to

789
00:37:56,196 --> 00:37:59,556
Speaker 2: just experience for a moment the joy of being on top.

790
00:37:59,436 --> 00:38:00,116
Speaker 1: Me it's tainted.

791
00:38:02,116 --> 00:38:05,356
Speaker 2: Let's let's take some listener and audience questions. This is

792
00:38:05,396 --> 00:38:08,316
Speaker 2: from Kelly. She wants to know how often you assess

793
00:38:08,356 --> 00:38:11,756
Speaker 2: your career goal and how your goals have changed over time.

794
00:38:12,396 --> 00:38:15,076
Speaker 1: I don't know if I have career goals just to

795
00:38:15,116 --> 00:38:17,996
Speaker 1: be left alone. And basically.

796
00:38:19,716 --> 00:38:20,796
Speaker 3: I can't let that one go.

797
00:38:21,236 --> 00:38:24,356
Speaker 2: You've made these shifts in turns. Right, So you started

798
00:38:24,396 --> 00:38:27,356
Speaker 2: a podcast, you were writing a TV pilot at one point.

799
00:38:28,276 --> 00:38:30,196
Speaker 2: You must be trying to accomplish something in terms of

800
00:38:30,236 --> 00:38:32,396
Speaker 2: your influence in the way that you spread ideas.

801
00:38:32,796 --> 00:38:33,836
Speaker 3: Is there's that a goal there?

802
00:38:35,196 --> 00:38:38,036
Speaker 1: Well, I don't want to get bored. I think, I mean,

803
00:38:38,116 --> 00:38:40,196
Speaker 1: it's serious. I don't know if there's anything more than

804
00:38:40,196 --> 00:38:43,356
Speaker 1: that that I'd like to try. The podcast was I

805
00:38:43,356 --> 00:38:45,836
Speaker 1: wanted to try something new. The screenplay was I wanted

806
00:38:45,876 --> 00:38:48,436
Speaker 1: to try something new. The writing books was I wanted

807
00:38:48,476 --> 00:38:51,316
Speaker 1: to try something new. I left the Washington Post to

808
00:38:51,356 --> 00:38:54,236
Speaker 1: do magazine writing because I wanted to try something new.

809
00:38:54,276 --> 00:38:56,996
Speaker 1: I mean, I wasn't unhappy in any of those places,

810
00:38:57,036 --> 00:39:01,476
Speaker 1: but I just thought the most fun I ever had

811
00:39:01,516 --> 00:39:03,436
Speaker 1: in the job was most fun was that the Washington

812
00:39:03,436 --> 00:39:06,916
Speaker 1: Post hugely fun. But at a certain point you realize, well,

813
00:39:07,476 --> 00:39:09,596
Speaker 1: there's more to life than just this, right, so you

814
00:39:09,596 --> 00:39:10,596
Speaker 1: should try something else?

815
00:39:12,196 --> 00:39:15,156
Speaker 2: All right, Sean wants to know I recently started a

816
00:39:15,196 --> 00:39:17,956
Speaker 2: new job, And I'm curious when it's appropriate to begin

817
00:39:18,196 --> 00:39:20,596
Speaker 2: disagreeing or expressing a different opinion.

818
00:39:21,716 --> 00:39:22,276
Speaker 4: How would I know.

819
00:39:22,316 --> 00:39:27,036
Speaker 1: I haven't had a job in yours. The one time

820
00:39:27,116 --> 00:39:29,276
Speaker 1: when I had a job to watch the Post, I

821
00:39:29,316 --> 00:39:31,236
Speaker 1: felt that the best way to be at work was

822
00:39:31,596 --> 00:39:32,876
Speaker 1: deeply passive aggressive.

823
00:39:33,116 --> 00:39:33,596
Speaker 4: That is.

824
00:39:35,236 --> 00:39:39,836
Speaker 1: That you should never express your disagreement in a straightforward way.

825
00:39:39,956 --> 00:39:43,956
Speaker 1: You should rather quietly and in a kind of behind

826
00:39:43,956 --> 00:39:46,676
Speaker 1: the back sort of way, make your feelings known. So

827
00:39:47,276 --> 00:39:49,036
Speaker 1: one of the things that I felt.

828
00:39:48,796 --> 00:39:51,716
Speaker 3: You are such a disappointment to adults.

829
00:39:51,756 --> 00:39:53,756
Speaker 1: This was the most important thing I did to watch

830
00:39:53,796 --> 00:39:57,036
Speaker 1: most was I realized very early on that the way

831
00:39:57,316 --> 00:40:00,036
Speaker 1: to make sure that you were given assignments that you

832
00:40:00,196 --> 00:40:04,196
Speaker 1: liked was to never do a good job with assignments

833
00:40:04,196 --> 00:40:07,556
Speaker 1: that you didn't like. And this, yeah, this is called

834
00:40:07,556 --> 00:40:12,796
Speaker 1: strategic sloppiness, is so routinely violated by people. So at

835
00:40:12,796 --> 00:40:14,836
Speaker 1: the Washington Post, we had an editor who was obsessed

836
00:40:14,836 --> 00:40:15,836
Speaker 1: with weather stories.

837
00:40:16,356 --> 00:40:17,876
Speaker 4: If there was a.

838
00:40:17,476 --> 00:40:20,516
Speaker 1: Hurricane, he wanted to send twenty people there. And nothing

839
00:40:20,556 --> 00:40:23,636
Speaker 1: is less fun than covering a hurricane. And so the

840
00:40:23,716 --> 00:40:25,636
Speaker 1: hurricanes would come and we would be sent down on

841
00:40:25,756 --> 00:40:28,956
Speaker 1: mass and I could see I was no dummy. I

842
00:40:28,996 --> 00:40:31,236
Speaker 1: could see what a trap this was because there's like

843
00:40:31,756 --> 00:40:35,236
Speaker 1: two or three major hurricanes a year. They last, you know,

844
00:40:35,556 --> 00:40:37,436
Speaker 1: I mean some of them can be they can spend

845
00:40:37,436 --> 00:40:40,716
Speaker 1: two weeks in like some some storm ravaged town in

846
00:40:40,756 --> 00:40:42,996
Speaker 1: South Florida. Like this is just not No part of

847
00:40:43,036 --> 00:40:45,956
Speaker 1: this sounds interesting to me. So I was assigned there

848
00:40:46,036 --> 00:40:48,956
Speaker 1: was a hurricane that was hitting the outer banks and

849
00:40:48,996 --> 00:40:52,676
Speaker 1: it was centering on a town on Columbia, North Carolina.

850
00:40:54,436 --> 00:40:55,156
Speaker 4: Where did I go?

851
00:40:55,596 --> 00:40:58,996
Speaker 1: Columbia, South Carolina. And I called in and I said,

852
00:40:59,476 --> 00:41:01,436
Speaker 1: sun shining here. I don't know what you guys are

853
00:41:02,196 --> 00:41:05,996
Speaker 1: talking about. And then when they got angry, I was

854
00:41:06,036 --> 00:41:08,716
Speaker 1: able to use my trump card, which was I'm Canadian.

855
00:41:08,756 --> 00:41:12,076
Speaker 4: I didn't know there was to Columbia's what he thought

856
00:41:12,076 --> 00:41:12,916
Speaker 4: it was a good idea to have.

857
00:41:12,956 --> 00:41:15,196
Speaker 1: By the way, think about this, who thought it was

858
00:41:15,236 --> 00:41:17,436
Speaker 1: a good idea to have a Columbia, North Carolina and

859
00:41:17,436 --> 00:41:21,036
Speaker 1: a Columbia South Carolmina? Is there such a shortage of

860
00:41:21,156 --> 00:41:25,876
Speaker 1: names of cities that before they separate the two Carolinas,

861
00:41:26,036 --> 00:41:29,076
Speaker 1: they're squabbling over who gets to use Columbia, Like there's

862
00:41:29,076 --> 00:41:32,356
Speaker 1: a short list, and like Columbia's on the list, and

863
00:41:32,516 --> 00:41:34,556
Speaker 1: like the whole thing's ridiculous.

864
00:41:36,476 --> 00:41:38,756
Speaker 2: And yet when I wanted to not be handed, you know,

865
00:41:38,956 --> 00:41:40,996
Speaker 2: tasks that I thought we're not a good use of time,

866
00:41:41,076 --> 00:41:44,356
Speaker 2: like sitting on a committee to determine furniture purchases, I

867
00:41:44,436 --> 00:41:46,236
Speaker 2: just let it fall to the bottom of my priority

868
00:41:46,276 --> 00:41:48,036
Speaker 2: list and didn't do a good job at it. You

869
00:41:48,116 --> 00:41:50,876
Speaker 2: traveled to a different city in a different state to

870
00:41:50,916 --> 00:41:52,436
Speaker 2: get out of doing the job.

871
00:41:52,356 --> 00:41:55,116
Speaker 1: That it's genius. The thing is you had to make

872
00:41:55,156 --> 00:41:57,756
Speaker 1: a statement. So it's not enough to be kind of

873
00:41:58,516 --> 00:42:02,396
Speaker 1: If I was just kind of routinely incompetent, fine, they

874
00:42:02,396 --> 00:42:05,036
Speaker 1: could deal with that. They have routinely incompetent people on staff.

875
00:42:05,276 --> 00:42:07,156
Speaker 1: They would just throw me back into the fire the

876
00:42:07,156 --> 00:42:08,636
Speaker 1: next time there was a hurricane. So this is I

877
00:42:08,636 --> 00:42:12,316
Speaker 1: need in com I need to be spectacularly like they

878
00:42:12,396 --> 00:42:16,116
Speaker 1: need to think Glable doesn't even know where North Carolina is.

879
00:42:16,236 --> 00:42:20,596
Speaker 1: We can't send them how to do hurricane coverage. So

880
00:42:20,676 --> 00:42:22,756
Speaker 1: it was like that was I thought a lot about

881
00:42:22,756 --> 00:42:25,356
Speaker 1: that one before I pulled that particular stunt.

882
00:42:27,396 --> 00:42:30,716
Speaker 2: I feel so proud to know you right now. A

883
00:42:30,716 --> 00:42:33,636
Speaker 2: different question, if this is from Brad, if blue collar

884
00:42:33,716 --> 00:42:37,836
Speaker 2: jobs are replaced by AI, how do you stay relevant

885
00:42:37,916 --> 00:42:38,516
Speaker 2: as a worker.

886
00:42:39,076 --> 00:42:41,556
Speaker 1: I wonder whether our blue collar jobs, the ones that

887
00:42:41,596 --> 00:42:43,516
Speaker 1: are going to get replaced by AI, are a white

888
00:42:43,556 --> 00:42:45,556
Speaker 1: collar jobs, the ones that get replaced by A That

889
00:42:45,596 --> 00:42:48,676
Speaker 1: would be my first question, go because I keep hearing

890
00:42:48,716 --> 00:42:53,996
Speaker 1: really interesting predictions that focus more on the displacement of

891
00:42:55,516 --> 00:42:58,756
Speaker 1: cognitively complex So if you think about, like there was

892
00:42:58,756 --> 00:43:00,556
Speaker 1: a great article in the New York Times about by

893
00:43:00,596 --> 00:43:04,996
Speaker 1: someone saying, you know, autonomous vehicles don't put truck drivers

894
00:43:05,516 --> 00:43:07,396
Speaker 1: out of work because truck drivers do a lot more

895
00:43:07,436 --> 00:43:12,636
Speaker 1: than drive trucks, a whole bunch of personal tasks that

896
00:43:12,676 --> 00:43:15,116
Speaker 1: require a person that a machine can't do. So the

897
00:43:15,196 --> 00:43:18,436
Speaker 1: actual driving part is just some small So what you

898
00:43:18,516 --> 00:43:21,116
Speaker 1: might have is a situation where you have a human

899
00:43:21,116 --> 00:43:23,396
Speaker 1: in the truck. Only the humans not driving all the time,

900
00:43:23,996 --> 00:43:26,476
Speaker 1: but you still need the human check on the cargo,

901
00:43:26,996 --> 00:43:29,796
Speaker 1: manage to make sure the truck is working properly. You know,

902
00:43:29,876 --> 00:43:32,156
Speaker 1: meet with the person when they're picking, you know, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

903
00:43:32,476 --> 00:43:35,116
Speaker 1: But if you know a lawyer is doing document search,

904
00:43:36,836 --> 00:43:39,356
Speaker 1: you know, that seems to be really straightforward for AI.

905
00:43:40,316 --> 00:43:41,716
Speaker 3: You're just trying to eliminate lawyers.

906
00:43:41,996 --> 00:43:43,796
Speaker 1: No, no, no, No, not at all, But I mean

907
00:43:43,836 --> 00:43:45,836
Speaker 1: that would be I know that lawyers are quite worried

908
00:43:45,836 --> 00:43:49,636
Speaker 1: about it, and I think appropriately, So how does one

909
00:43:49,676 --> 00:43:51,396
Speaker 1: stay relevant? I mean, I think the answer is that

910
00:43:51,436 --> 00:43:54,036
Speaker 1: you just need to be good. The obvious answer is

911
00:43:54,036 --> 00:43:56,396
Speaker 1: good at the things the machine is not. I'm not

912
00:43:56,436 --> 00:43:58,676
Speaker 1: an alarmist about AI. I happen to think that there

913
00:43:58,716 --> 00:44:01,116
Speaker 1: are so many things that we need people to do

914
00:44:01,196 --> 00:44:02,956
Speaker 1: that are not being done right now that most of

915
00:44:02,996 --> 00:44:06,996
Speaker 1: that involve communicating with them and empathizing with them and

916
00:44:07,196 --> 00:44:11,916
Speaker 1: helping them out. That some displacement of in some areas

917
00:44:12,076 --> 00:44:13,596
Speaker 1: is not gonna It is not the end of the world.

918
00:44:13,596 --> 00:44:15,116
Speaker 1: It just means that we'll be able to focus a

919
00:44:15,116 --> 00:44:17,556
Speaker 1: lot more on people who are in need of help.

920
00:44:18,516 --> 00:44:21,596
Speaker 2: Stuart and Dave both submitted basically the same question, which

921
00:44:21,636 --> 00:44:25,196
Speaker 2: is you wrote about Enron a long time ago. What

922
00:44:25,316 --> 00:44:28,436
Speaker 2: lessons did corporate America fail to learn from that debacle

923
00:44:28,636 --> 00:44:30,316
Speaker 2: that we're still in need of learning.

924
00:44:31,356 --> 00:44:34,996
Speaker 4: Well, there's so much fun about the n run case fun.

925
00:44:35,236 --> 00:44:35,996
Speaker 3: Sorry you said fun.

926
00:44:36,396 --> 00:44:37,836
Speaker 4: Yes, fun.

927
00:44:37,836 --> 00:44:39,236
Speaker 1: Thing Number one is, which is the thing that I

928
00:44:39,276 --> 00:44:41,836
Speaker 1: wrote about at the time. Well, I wrote two Enron articles.

929
00:44:42,396 --> 00:44:44,596
Speaker 1: The second one was better than the first. In the

930
00:44:44,636 --> 00:44:47,876
Speaker 1: second one, I pointed out that Enron was an example

931
00:44:47,876 --> 00:44:51,836
Speaker 1: of a scandal in which everything that was used to

932
00:44:51,876 --> 00:44:59,036
Speaker 1: bring down Enron was material in the public record put

933
00:44:59,076 --> 00:45:01,836
Speaker 1: out by Enron. In other words, to know what Enron

934
00:45:01,916 --> 00:45:03,476
Speaker 1: was doing wrong, all you had to do was to

935
00:45:03,596 --> 00:45:06,716
Speaker 1: read the material that Enron had given to the public

936
00:45:06,716 --> 00:45:08,636
Speaker 1: on what Enrod was doing. And the reason it took

937
00:45:08,676 --> 00:45:11,356
Speaker 1: so long bring anyone down is that basically no one

938
00:45:11,356 --> 00:45:14,196
Speaker 1: ever read the stuff they were putting out. Now, this

939
00:45:14,276 --> 00:45:18,676
Speaker 1: raise is a really interesting question. If everything that was

940
00:45:18,836 --> 00:45:22,796
Speaker 1: used to end Enron was based on stuff that Enron

941
00:45:22,836 --> 00:45:25,996
Speaker 1: told us, then what did Enron do wrong? So basically,

942
00:45:26,036 --> 00:45:27,556
Speaker 1: if you think that dun Wrong was a fraud, and

943
00:45:27,596 --> 00:45:29,676
Speaker 1: you say, I know they're a fraud because here in

944
00:45:29,756 --> 00:45:33,716
Speaker 1: their ten k's they detail all the crazy things they're doing.

945
00:45:34,036 --> 00:45:36,236
Speaker 1: But they told you they were doing crazy things. So

946
00:45:36,276 --> 00:45:38,916
Speaker 1: what's your case? Why would you buy the Enron stock

947
00:45:39,036 --> 00:45:41,356
Speaker 1: if Enron told you they were doing crazy things? Maybe

948
00:45:41,356 --> 00:45:43,596
Speaker 1: you didn't read the ten K, which you're supposed to

949
00:45:43,636 --> 00:45:44,956
Speaker 1: do if you buy a lot of en Ron stock.

950
00:45:45,116 --> 00:45:46,436
Speaker 4: So it gets very confusing.

951
00:45:46,956 --> 00:45:49,116
Speaker 1: It's not the same in other words, as the woman

952
00:45:49,156 --> 00:45:52,836
Speaker 1: at Pharaohs, what's her name Elizabeth Holmes with Holmes, so

953
00:45:52,876 --> 00:45:56,156
Speaker 1: there's now a case against Elizabeth Holmes that's very different.

954
00:45:56,836 --> 00:46:00,036
Speaker 1: So she was pretending to do X, and in fact,

955
00:46:00,116 --> 00:46:03,036
Speaker 1: do we think doing why that's fraud.

956
00:46:03,116 --> 00:46:04,516
Speaker 4: But if I tell.

957
00:46:04,316 --> 00:46:06,236
Speaker 1: You I'm doing why and then I do why and

958
00:46:06,276 --> 00:46:08,276
Speaker 1: you say, wait a minute, you did why, you should

959
00:46:08,276 --> 00:46:09,716
Speaker 1: go to jail. It's confusing.

960
00:46:09,836 --> 00:46:12,236
Speaker 2: So as long as I tell you, So, if I

961
00:46:12,276 --> 00:46:14,276
Speaker 2: tell you I'm going to defraud you, you're okay with it.

962
00:46:14,436 --> 00:46:16,796
Speaker 4: Well, no, I'm not saying I'm okay with it.

963
00:46:16,876 --> 00:46:18,996
Speaker 1: I'm saying it's a different kind of crime, and it's

964
00:46:18,996 --> 00:46:22,036
Speaker 1: one that I don't really understand anymore. I'm used to

965
00:46:22,036 --> 00:46:24,636
Speaker 1: the model that the con man is trying to con me.

966
00:46:25,036 --> 00:46:27,116
Speaker 1: I'm not used to the model with a con man

967
00:46:27,276 --> 00:46:29,756
Speaker 1: says before he cons me, here's how I'm going to

968
00:46:29,836 --> 00:46:30,156
Speaker 1: con you.

969
00:46:32,076 --> 00:46:35,316
Speaker 2: Doug wants to know what actions you recommend young professionals

970
00:46:35,356 --> 00:46:38,196
Speaker 2: take to shape an organization, even though they might not

971
00:46:38,276 --> 00:46:40,556
Speaker 2: be in charge yet. And I feel like we need

972
00:46:40,596 --> 00:46:43,676
Speaker 2: to disclaim that we don't necessarily want to follow your

973
00:46:43,716 --> 00:46:47,236
Speaker 2: career advice. But what advice would you give out?

974
00:46:47,236 --> 00:46:49,036
Speaker 1: I want to change an organization.

975
00:46:50,196 --> 00:46:53,356
Speaker 2: A culture you don't like yeah, policy you think is broken.

976
00:46:54,036 --> 00:46:57,836
Speaker 1: Not be passive aggressive. I'm guessing it's a good question.

977
00:46:57,876 --> 00:46:59,596
Speaker 1: I don't know if I have a good answer to that.

978
00:46:59,676 --> 00:47:03,756
Speaker 1: I when I think back at my time in a

979
00:47:03,836 --> 00:47:07,916
Speaker 1: large organization Washington Post, the thing that was most frustrating

980
00:47:07,916 --> 00:47:12,276
Speaker 1: to me was the extent to which people, over time

981
00:47:12,356 --> 00:47:16,756
Speaker 1: in an organization put the needs and desires of those

982
00:47:16,916 --> 00:47:20,196
Speaker 1: on the inside ahead of the needs and desires of

983
00:47:20,236 --> 00:47:24,596
Speaker 1: those who they're serving. So there was a famous case

984
00:47:24,596 --> 00:47:28,156
Speaker 1: of a very very brilliant reporter who was fired from

985
00:47:28,156 --> 00:47:31,396
Speaker 1: the Washington Post because he was difficult to work with.

986
00:47:32,196 --> 00:47:34,196
Speaker 1: But there was very little understanding of the fact that

987
00:47:34,276 --> 00:47:36,116
Speaker 1: what made him a brilliant reporter was the same thing

988
00:47:36,156 --> 00:47:38,956
Speaker 1: that made him difficult to work with, and that you

989
00:47:39,556 --> 00:47:41,836
Speaker 1: if you fired everyone who was difficult to work with

990
00:47:41,916 --> 00:47:44,876
Speaker 1: the Washington Post, you wouldn't have a newspaper anymore, you would,

991
00:47:44,916 --> 00:47:47,076
Speaker 1: you know you? And I thought it was odd that

992
00:47:47,876 --> 00:47:50,996
Speaker 1: an editor didn't consider it as part of their job description,

993
00:47:51,316 --> 00:47:55,036
Speaker 1: the ability to work with difficult people. Right, that's why

994
00:47:55,076 --> 00:47:57,116
Speaker 1: you do that job, and that's what makes you good

995
00:47:57,756 --> 00:48:01,116
Speaker 1: is at that job. And there's a point at which

996
00:48:01,316 --> 00:48:07,396
Speaker 1: sometimes people get so kind of immersed in their environment,

997
00:48:07,676 --> 00:48:10,996
Speaker 1: that the reader who you're supposed to be serving falls away,

998
00:48:11,436 --> 00:48:13,956
Speaker 1: and you just think about what would make your life better.

999
00:48:14,076 --> 00:48:16,956
Speaker 1: So I guess in answer to that question, one simple

1000
00:48:16,996 --> 00:48:19,756
Speaker 1: way is to keep keep reminding yourself and those around

1001
00:48:19,796 --> 00:48:23,676
Speaker 1: you what the point of your organization is who you're serving.

1002
00:48:24,076 --> 00:48:25,876
Speaker 2: But go back to the sampling. So how long do

1003
00:48:25,916 --> 00:48:27,476
Speaker 2: you want with someone and how are you vetting them?

1004
00:48:27,516 --> 00:48:28,556
Speaker 3: And vice versa?

1005
00:48:29,716 --> 00:48:30,556
Speaker 4: How long did you hire?

1006
00:48:32,076 --> 00:48:33,716
Speaker 3: Yeah, you have assistance to work for you.

1007
00:48:34,316 --> 00:48:37,116
Speaker 1: I've been very lucky with them. Only there's only one

1008
00:48:37,156 --> 00:48:39,396
Speaker 1: I ever got rid of because it didn't work out.

1009
00:48:39,556 --> 00:48:42,876
Speaker 1: What happened was it very rapidly became pre to me

1010
00:48:42,916 --> 00:48:45,476
Speaker 1: that she was a bad assistant, But it also, at

1011
00:48:45,476 --> 00:48:47,876
Speaker 1: the same time became pre to me that she was

1012
00:48:48,676 --> 00:48:53,476
Speaker 1: a wonderful person and so deeply hilarious that she couldn't

1013
00:48:53,516 --> 00:48:57,476
Speaker 1: even send an email that wasn't an absolutely brilliant piece

1014
00:48:57,516 --> 00:49:00,556
Speaker 1: of work that would reduce you to, you know, helpless

1015
00:49:00,556 --> 00:49:04,196
Speaker 1: scales of laughter. And so that really changed my perspective

1016
00:49:04,236 --> 00:49:06,836
Speaker 1: on hiring, because I was like, I was I willing

1017
00:49:06,876 --> 00:49:09,836
Speaker 1: to give up competence in her job for the delight

1018
00:49:09,916 --> 00:49:13,476
Speaker 1: of being your emails? And the answer is absolutely so

1019
00:49:13,596 --> 00:49:15,316
Speaker 1: I was like, you know, as long as they have

1020
00:49:15,396 --> 00:49:17,356
Speaker 1: bringing something interesting to the table, I'm happy.

1021
00:49:19,476 --> 00:49:21,716
Speaker 2: I do feel like the record needs to show that

1022
00:49:21,756 --> 00:49:23,996
Speaker 2: you just said she was brilliant because she was hilarious.

1023
00:49:24,356 --> 00:49:27,676
Speaker 3: So I stand by my comedian quite from earlier she

1024
00:49:27,796 --> 00:49:31,356
Speaker 3: was as This has been incredibly fun.

1025
00:49:31,676 --> 00:49:35,516
Speaker 2: Thank you for green to join us, for sharing your

1026
00:49:35,556 --> 00:49:40,996
Speaker 2: pad advice and your interesting ideas and your wisdom and

1027
00:49:41,036 --> 00:49:43,276
Speaker 2: your arguments that have inspired so many of us to

1028
00:49:43,316 --> 00:49:46,676
Speaker 2: ask more interesting, deeper, bigger questions. It's a real honor.

1029
00:49:46,716 --> 00:49:48,316
Speaker 2: I want to thank you, Malcolm, and thank all of

1030
00:49:48,316 --> 00:49:48,996
Speaker 2: you for being here.

1031
00:50:06,076 --> 00:50:08,196
Speaker 1: You've been listening to me and Adam Grant at the

1032
00:50:08,276 --> 00:50:11,636
Speaker 1: ninety second Street Why in New York. This interview is

1033
00:50:11,636 --> 00:50:14,596
Speaker 1: the final episode on the first season of his podcast

1034
00:50:14,916 --> 00:50:17,756
Speaker 1: Work Life with Adam Grant, which is part of the

1035
00:50:17,796 --> 00:50:22,636
Speaker 1: Ted podcast network. It's a great show, Adam being Adam

1036
00:50:22,676 --> 00:50:26,916
Speaker 1: doing all kinds of fascinating interviews with people about workplace life.

1037
00:50:26,996 --> 00:50:29,596
Speaker 1: If you're curious about what everyone else does from nine

1038
00:50:29,636 --> 00:50:32,236
Speaker 1: to five, or as the case, maybe seven to ten,

1039
00:50:32,996 --> 00:50:37,036
Speaker 1: give Adam's show a listen on Apple podcast or wherever

1040
00:50:37,076 --> 00:50:39,836
Speaker 1: you're listening to this show. And for those of you

1041
00:50:39,956 --> 00:50:42,956
Speaker 1: waiting on the first episode of Revisionist History. It is

1042
00:50:43,956 --> 00:50:45,276
Speaker 1: just around the corner