WEBVTT - How Human Experimentation Works 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.880 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray. 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:07.480 It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff you should know 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:16.160 from House Stuff Works dot com. Sometimes science goes too far, 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:25.720 Dog Matters twisted but true. Wednesday's at ten on Science. Hey, 0:00:25.760 --> 0:00:29.040 and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. Happy New 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:33.360 Year too. Huh. Yeah, that's Chuck Bryant, Charles W. Bryant, 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:40.040 baby here himself. Yeah, he's always chubby me No, baby 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:43.280 New Year Chuck. Yeah, with the ears. Yeah, poor kids. 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:45.800 He always has like kind of curly hair, which I'm 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:48.400 I'm not a com portion too. Yeah. You know, growing 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:51.879 up watching the little Claymation Happy New Year baby thing, 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:55.319 the baby New Year. Remember the Huge years. Oh, that's 0:00:55.320 --> 0:00:57.320 so I was just talking about. That was like the 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:01.040 little stock claymation like Rudolph. Yeah, but there was one 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:02.720 for for New Year's and it was the baby that 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:04.360 had the huge ears. When he took his hat off, 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:07.040 his ears would pop out and everyone would chastise him. 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:09.360 What did it sound like when he took his ears 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:13.920 out like that? It sounded like actually, but always felt 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:16.640 bad because I thought it was a cute little claymation baby. Yeah, 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:18.680 it was that the crux of it that, like he 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:21.319 just had big ears and everybody laughed at him. Yeah. 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:23.200 I can't remember how it ented he finally found a 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:25.600 home or something. I don't know. You're good, because there's 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:27.920 nothing sadder than a homeless baby on New Year's yea 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:32.000 with big ears, Chuck, Josh, have you ever heard of Herophilus? 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:36.200 I have? You want to talk a bit about herofilus 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:39.760 journey back to fourth century BC, or as you like 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:45.400 to say, b c E the new BC. Um he 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:48.280 was that he's known as the father of anatomy. Yeah, 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:50.280 and one of the ways that he became known as 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:56.279 the father of anatomy was by um dissecting vivisecting live 0:01:56.400 --> 0:02:00.600 human beings. Yes, live, well, I was about to say 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:03.280 live cald ever, But a cad ever is dead, live 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:09.040 human human patients dissecting for for science, right, and I 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:13.000 believe they were they were criminals right many times. Yes, 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:16.600 So we're talking about human experimentation. We're basing this on 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:20.120 an article written by the fine esteemed writer Robert Lamb 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:24.160 and he starts out paid zero with um. This account 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:29.839 of horofilis uh cutting through the eyeball of a guy 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:32.760 who was strapped to a table and I guess something 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:35.280 stuffed in his mouth to muffle the screams. But his 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:37.960 eyeball is being dissected in front of a group of 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:44.280 surgeons by Horaflis. Please once more, the master pots flesh 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:47.840 enters the bloody maze of otteries and muscle. You know, 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:49.840 we should have gotten r l in here to read 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:53.600 it himself. Good stuff. So yeah, um, apparently this guy 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:57.079 that um that that Robert's writing about, this victim was 0:02:57.160 --> 0:03:01.520 one of more than six hundred that were vivisected at 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:06.000 the hands of Herophilis over the course of his lifetime, right, yes, 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:10.080 for alive prisoners. Yeah, so that's kind of sickening. It 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:14.320 is horrific, but it was apparently par for the course, right, yeah, 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:16.680 the time. Sure, So all these people, why would you 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:19.400 why would you dissect a live person or vivisect a 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:21.440 live person. I think it's dissect if it is dead, 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:24.960 and vivisect if they're alive, is it? I believe? So? Well, 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:28.200 I mean there's there's there's reasons for it. You wouldn't 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:30.800 want to justify it. But they were doing that because 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:35.720 sometimes you just need a human to perform an experiment 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:38.480 on and sometimes a kid ever didn't do the job. 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:41.880 And before they were scruples, they would, you know, do 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:43.720 it on a live person instead of like an animal 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:47.160 test right. Apparently back in horafulis is age. Also, they 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:50.520 thought that air was carried in the circulatory system rather 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:53.880 than blood, which is weird because if you vivisector person, 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:57.200 blood comes out, although I imagine air does too since 0:03:57.240 --> 0:03:59.080 you can't see it. They're like, oh, let's air. This 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:01.360 is just something. And this guy's the father of anatomy. 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:06.320 He is. Come on, here's the big ironic twist. All 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:09.480 of his writings that he all the notes he took, 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:13.360 all the the scholarly works he created based on the 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:17.559 deaths or the intolerable pain experienced by these six people 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:22.200 were all lost when the Library of Alexandria burned in 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:35.839 uh to. This is rapidly devolving into a sound effect show. Yeah, 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:38.240 it's so um should we tell people what that is? 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:41.840 Jerry got us a little gift for Christmas, a little 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:44.560 uh sound machine, And the funny thing is that she 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:46.080 asked us to keep it on the d L and 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:49.520 we just told a hundred thousand people. Yeah. Yeah. The 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:51.360 other funny thing, and so she actually said we could 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:53.200 use it. I thought she was gonna say, well, here, 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:55.359 but you can never use this, right, Yeah, and she 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:58.320 encouraged us to use it as well. So chuck. The 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:00.960 idea of somebody writhing under the knife while a guy 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:04.360 like Corophilis or anybody else with a sharp sharp object 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:08.920 cuts his eyeball open to examine the nerves inside. Uh, 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:14.040 is a pretty horrific idea, indeed, Um. And the problem 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:16.560 is is this kind of thing didn't end in a 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:21.880 d two seventy two. Now it continued on. Apparently history 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:26.480 is littered with human experimentation. Yes, so much so that 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:31.000 there were body snatching problems in the nineteenth century because 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:36.040 medical schools needed bodies, right they You couldn't in the 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:40.080 nineteenth century. By the nineteenth century, you couldn't vivisect anybody 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:45.640 you weren't supposed to. And also because of the puritanical ideals, Um, 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:49.680 you couldn't do any kind of um dissection on cadavers. 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:51.960 Right now, of course you can, right, which is a 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:54.440 good move, because, like you said, there was a lot 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:56.800 of grave robbing going on to supply the medical schools 0:05:56.800 --> 0:06:00.680 who still needed this knowledge. Um. And wanted, and we're 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:03.160 willing to pay grave robbers for it. Time. Do you 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:07.800 remember back in ninety nine when they found some bones, 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:12.719 actually hundred bones in the basement of Medical College of Georgia. Really, yeah, 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:15.039 I did not know that. Yeah, they were they dated 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:18.000 back to the nineteenth century, and they were linked to 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:22.400 um rob graves. Yeah. That's crazy, isn't it? It is 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:26.240 so well, you know, that's if you're dealing with kidavers 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:28.719 if you're there. Also, if you wanted to experiment on 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:33.279 a live um living thing, then you would now have 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:36.240 to go the route of like chimps and rabbits and 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:40.560 mice rats, right, which actually, what we've done, from what 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:46.200 I understand, is with human experimentation, we've put lower making 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:53.120 air quotes here, lower species in between us and initial discovery. Right. Yeah. 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:54.520 The problem was back in the day though, they did 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.640 the same thing, but they considered lower species other humans 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:02.520 specifically convicts, yeah, or poor are in destitute, diseased, Yeah exactly, 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:05.520 but convicts for sure, convicts have pretty much always gotten 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:09.279 it pretty bad, um as far as human experimentation goes. 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:12.120 But yeah, um, so these days we we do put 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:16.120 h rabbits and rats and and um, chimps and macaques 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:20.120 and in between us and um, you know, not knowing 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:23.280 what a drug will do or something like that. But really, 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:26.400 ultimately it still ends up to humans. And one of 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:29.600 the reasons why is because you know, you can't you 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:34.000 they we don't even know whether or not animals experience happiness, 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:36.200 you know, do they How can we figure out if 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:39.520 they're hallucinating? Yeah? Sure, they can't help self report. Yeah, 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:41.640 you gotta ask questions every now and then. Right, and 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:44.120 then also, I mean, if you're doing if you're making 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:46.960 a drug for humans, you eventually have to find out 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:50.000 exactly what it does to humans. It's not gonna have 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:52.040 the same effect on a rat, although it will probably 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:54.120 be close. And what we'll get into that in a minute. 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:56.760 All right, should we talk about some of the horrific 0:07:57.160 --> 0:07:59.360 things that have happened throughout our history? Judge, Well, don't 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:02.120 forget the whole him. There's another there's another route you 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:07.920 could take it self experimentation, Yes, living your living self, 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:10.520 experimenting on yourself, which I mean there have been some 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:14.400 famous examples of this. Yes. Famously, Pierre and Mary Curie 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:19.120 earned a Nobel Prize in Physics from radiation research, and 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:23.080 they did this pie taping radium salts to their skin 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:26.000 and seeing what happened. So that's one way to do it. 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:30.360 Another guy who famously tried his his research out on 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:35.719 himself as Albert Hoffman, the guy who created LSD, right, 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:38.160 and apparently he had a diary where he writes about 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:40.920 his bike ride home after injecting himself with LSD and 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:45.160 he had no bike. No, he had a bike, but 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:48.559 he was like, Wow, nothing is real And I really 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:51.800 feel like listening to pink Floyd right now. Yeah, yet 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:53.960 to be discovered, pink Floyd yet to be born. I 0:08:54.000 --> 0:09:00.400 think even um so Chuck self experimentation has its own flaws, right, 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:04.199 if you're vivisecting an eyeball and you do it to yourself, 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.439 you can't do that more than once. You probably wouldn't 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:10.640 even do it that one time, yea. So really there 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:15.640 is a lot to be gained from vivisecting human beings. Well, 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:17.480 we don't do it. And one of the reasons why 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:20.720 is because it's horrific. So yes, let's talk about some 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:24.800 of the horrific human experiments that litter history. Jay Mary 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:28.600 and Simms. Is that name? Ringabelle No? That is uh 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:33.520 considered to be the father of gynecology. Oh yeah, Jay 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:37.560 Mary and Sims, Sims and uh. He even became the 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:40.520 president of the A M A and eighteen seventy six. 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:45.280 But he developed um experimental surgeries by testing them on 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:50.920 African slaves many times without anesthesia. Yeah, dark side for sure, man. Yeah, 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:53.319 I would definitely call that a dark side. Yeah. He 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:57.359 gets lauded probably in many circles still today he does. Um. Apparently, 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:01.160 Uh that was we think of the Nazis especially, and 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:03.720 we'll talk about them in a minute. But the US 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:08.560 has a really shady history of human experimentation. Um. A 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:12.840 guy named Dr Leo Stanley Uh injected prisoners at San 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:17.160 Quentin with animal testinges too uh slow or reverse aging, 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:23.400 which did not work out. Um, Cholerado experiments on the 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:29.839 Philippines conducted by US nineteen fifteen, Palagra experiments in Mississippi, right. Uh. 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.520 And then apparently we were talking about how prisoners have 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.559 always gotten a bad rap up. Until the nineteen seventies 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:40.160 in the United States, pretty much all pharmaceuticals were tested 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:44.760 on convicts. You did not want to break a law. Now, 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:47.560 I wonder you know how people hearken back to like 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:50.320 the the Golden Age when there was less crime and 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:52.840 less violence and all that. I wonder how much of 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:54.600 it had to do with the fact that if you 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:57.520 went to prison, like you would be experimented on. Yeah, 0:10:57.559 --> 0:10:59.800 I wonder if you know that, though it probably wasn't 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:02.040 why they reported. Until you get to prison. Then you're like, 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:05.520 oh oops, yeah that's yeah. Had I known, right, but 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:09.280 I imagine recitativism rates what what's a bone head word? 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:13.360 We're pretty low. Yeah, you're probably right, so chuck. You know. Also, 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:18.160 the United States was huge into compulsory sterilization, right, I 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:22.360 did not know that the eugenics movement. Okay, so between 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:25.080 I guess the early nineteen hundreds, the first decade of 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:29.080 the twentieth century up until the seventies, I think maybe 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:33.520 the ninety one, uh sixty four thousand people in the 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:37.600 United States were sterilized against their will, like epileptics, the 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:46.200 mentally handicapped, blind, deaf, mutes, um schizophrenics, and Native Americans 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:50.320 against their will, sometimes unknowingly unbelievable. Yeah, which you could. 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:53.280 That's not necessarily an experiment because you know exactly what's 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:57.240 gonna happen. The prison is going to be sterilized. But um, 0:11:57.520 --> 0:11:59.640 if you look at it as eugenics, it's it is 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:03.440 kind of larger experiment to basically created great race and 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:06.120 then the eugenics the popularity. I mean it was well 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:08.040 known this was going on. This was in a secret 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:11.680 government program like mk ultra, right, and there was public 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:16.280 support for it until World War Two, which remember actually 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:19.400 can you remember to the future, Yes, when we talk 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:22.960 about mercenaries, right, World War Two changed everything we did. Yeah, 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:25.200 the Nazis really lead the way when it comes to 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:30.199 human experimentation. Um, as everyone knows against the Jews, Gypsies, 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:33.079 anyone they felt like targeting. They would do things like 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:37.680 freezing them to research hypothermia and then actually came it 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:42.480 became huge later their hypothermia research is like really used 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:46.280 still yeah, well we'll get into the ethics. Uh. They 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:49.160 put them in the compression chambers to test the effects 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:51.760 of high altitude flight, which it doesn't get much worse 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:54.800 than that, and a sterilization experiments as well, like the 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:59.160 US was doing. They would use a phosphorus incendiary phosphorus 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:02.480 devices to figure out how to treat phosphorus burns. Japan 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:06.560 was another country. Their Unit seven thirty one very famous 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:10.319 unit reportedly killed more than ten thousand Chinese, Korean, and 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:14.760 Russian POWs to develop biological weapons and tests of stuff 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:17.680 out on them basically, right. Um. So the Nazis in 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:23.080 particular face the music at Nuremberg, right um. And there 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:27.120 was this part to the Nuremberg trials called the Doctor's trials. Uh. 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:30.360 And I think a bunch of the guys, like seventeen 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:34.559 were convicted, and most of them I think were hanged. Yeah, um. 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:37.520 And a lot of these guys cases were Dude, we 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:41.560 didn't break any laws. There's no lawful outline of what 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:44.800 to do when you're experimenting on a human, and a 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:47.199 lot of this stuff followed the same kind of protocol 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:50.960 that we had before the war, right right, which is 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:53.280 just horrendous, but in a lot of cases it was 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:56.599 actually true. Right. So one of the results of the 0:13:56.679 --> 0:14:02.280 Nuremberg Trial was the Nuremberg Code, where the international community said, 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:05.160 all right, we need to outline some some guidelines for 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:09.280 human experimentation. And if I think there's like ten points 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:14.280 to it, ten large overviews UH to human experimentation guidelines, 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:19.960 and it focuses on UM reducing UH, fear and pain 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:23.640 discomfort in the experiment. Subjects that can't be coerced, that 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:26.480 has to be willing, that have to be informed. What's 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:29.000 this covered by? What's that under? You know, like what 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:33.040 document or organization that's under I don't know, probably the 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:35.280 u WIN. I would think the u N would have 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:37.840 something to do with that. But yes, but it's very 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:40.960 famous called the Nuremberg Code, right, and it solves like 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:46.320 the moral quandary uh jevercy Um extreme measures, Gene Hackman, 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:48.760 Hugh Grant, all right, so you know, like in the end, 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:51.720 I think they're in a sewer somehow. Gene Hackman's like, 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.040 if you had to kill one to save a million, 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:57.160 wouldn't you have to do it? And so the Nuremberg 0:14:57.240 --> 0:14:59.760 Code solves that. And the answer, by the way, is no, 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:02.160 you wouldn't kill one. Yeah, that's the old, the age 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:04.840 old question, though, right, kill one to save many, which 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:07.760 is a very utilitarian view of of looking at things like, yes, 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:09.960 you kill one person to save a million, of course 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:13.760 you do, but we as an international collective have decided 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:17.200 that you don't do that. One person's life is worth 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:20.520 as much as a million people's potential lives. So that 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:23.680 brings us to The real quandary that with human experimentation 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:26.800 is what do you do with this information that has 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:31.920 gained from these awful, awful experiments. Um. A lot of 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:37.200 detractors will say that to use this information supports human experimentation, right, 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:39.160 But then another way of looking at it is to 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:42.680 propose like kind of do a thought experiment of all right, 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.200 let's say that you are you walk in on one 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:48.440 of these experiments. You say, your death is inevitable and 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:51.640 it's going to be a painful, horrible death. But you 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:54.400 can choose whether or not this data that was that 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:58.280 your results from your death is suppressed or used. Which 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:01.040 one do you want? And then you know that most 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.280 people would say, well, if I'm going to die anyway, 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:06.080 I would want this data to be used. That's the 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:08.160 argument the other side uses, Yeah, the US cut a 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:11.360 little deal though with you one. I know we were 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:15.040 it's such we have such a shady history, like we 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:17.560 used Nazi scientists to get us to the moon. Well, 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:19.760 this was particularly to keep it from falling into the 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:22.440 wrong hands. So we thought, hey, rather than give that 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:26.120 to the Russians Une, let's cut a deal where the 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:30.600 officers responsible for this good immunity from prosecution and war crimes, 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:33.840 and we get the data, and we'll even give you 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:36.720 a little stipend. Yeah, on the side, we'll give you 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:39.920 some money probably way to come up with those biological weapons. 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:44.680 Nicely done. Um, Like we said, the Nazi hypothermia experiments, 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:49.480 which were pretty brutal apparently, um the they would put 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:52.960 you in an icy vat of water with a thermometer 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:56.920 in erectum and they found that most people died, went 0:16:57.000 --> 0:17:02.000 unconscious and died around when their body temperature seventy degrees fahrenheit. Right, yeah, 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:04.600 it's it's such a useful information. But no, the useful 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:07.600 information came in they were looking for ways to revive 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:10.520 people suffering from hypothermia because the Germans were losing so 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:15.560 many people on the Eastern Front in Germany. Um that 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:19.119 they actually did figure out ways of quickly reviving people 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:24.320 suffering from hypothermia. So hypotherp post war hypothermia researchers are like, dude, 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:28.240 these people, as ghastly as these experiments are, they figured 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:31.800 out how to revive people suffering from hypothermia. We need 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:35.800 that information. So I think with with that, UM, I 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:40.640 guess that group leading the charge Nazi data has been 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:42.399 used in a lot of ways, but then there it 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:45.040 should be cited, I think was the compromise that they 0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:47.480 came up with. Yeah, and it actually worked the other 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:52.040 way to Jewish doctors would later study um victims of 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:55.199 starvation in the ghetto and the word slaw ghetto and 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:58.040 they use that to aid in the study of UM 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:02.479 hunger associated disease. So they found a way to use 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:06.600 it at least. And so we were talking also about 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:09.480 how the US has a nice long history of horrible 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:14.359 stuff like the Tuskegee experiments. You want to talk about that. Yes, 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:17.800 a forty year study of a syphilis began in nineteen 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:21.960 thirty two, and they use African Americans who sought treatment 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:25.199 for this disease, and they basically straight up lied and 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:27.920 deceived them thinking they were being treated. Right. They they 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:31.359 actually didn't use any kind of medical intervention because they 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:33.840 wanted to watch the progression of syphilis. Yeah, they want 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:36.080 to see it gets worse, and so they could chart 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:38.480 everything out and they had no idea. And then I 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:44.720 guess finally in uh No, the US issues a public 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:49.080 apology for for this and there's still some people alive 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:52.400 who were experimented on unbelievable. Yeah, and you know, we've 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:57.679 we've documented the LSD experiments that unsuspecting Americans were dosed 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:01.040 and the mk Ultra project. We did a whole show 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:05.800 on that. Didn't me Yeah, it was like our best one, 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:08.080 didn't we did you forget? Well it was a long 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:10.080 time ago, so yeah, well you were kind of out 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:11.720 of it if you remember. The beginning of that one 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:15.160 was oh, that's right. Yeah, we did a role playing 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:19.000 so Chuck. There was kind of a huge sea change 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:22.639 in the way that human experimentation was looked at and 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:25.600 carried out when the f d A was established in 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:28.840 the thirties. All of a sudden, there were review boards 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:33.440 and panels. Um, the universities kind of stepped in and said, 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:35.040 all right, we play a big role in this. We're 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:40.120 gonna start establishing stricter oversight of human experimentation. And that's 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:42.320 kind of the course that we've followed since then. Right, 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:45.800 drug trials, drug trials exactly? Do you know any human 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:48.919 guinea pigs? Now I've never done it, but um, you know, 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:52.040 phase one drug trials is usually where you'll get the 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:55.920 most folks, because you need healthy, healthy individuals who are 0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:58.520 willing to risk their health for money and basically what 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:00.920 they're doing in these phase one trial or you know 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:03.520 when you see these commercials that rattle off a hundred 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:08.159 side effects, they're positively frightening. They get these from giving 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:11.680 these uh these medications to people and seeing what happens. Basically, Yeah, 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:14.199 Robert Lamb put it really well. He said that if 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:16.720 your bottle of medication says that it might result in 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:20.600 bowl bowel control problems or suicidal thoughts, you can bet 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:23.359 that someone received a paycheck for experiencing them at some 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:27.280 point exactly. So that's what they know. So that's phase one. 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:31.359 Phase two deals with dosing and efficiency, and phase three 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:36.000 enlist um actual patients who need this treatment, not not 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:39.680 healthy people, and people who volunteer for phase one clinical 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:44.800 trials are uh handsomely paid depending on the risk involves. 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:47.440 That's one of the problems. Yeah, And I mean it's 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:50.400 kind of like a vacation. You're you're fed, and you're 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:52.760 put up maybe in a hotel or the hospital room 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:55.760 has um like a video game console, you watch movies 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:58.840 or whatever, and they just shoot you full of something 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:01.040 and then come in like every fifteen minutes or hour 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:04.359 whatever and say, you know, like have you seen that 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:07.040 leopard can you were talking to earlier again, you know, 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:08.760 that kind of stuff. But that's one of the problems 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:11.800 is that some of these folks bounced from experiment to 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:15.600 experiment and you know, kind of make a half asked 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:18.280 living off of this, right, I guess you can. I mean, 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:21.440 especially if you're dedicated. He talks about Lamb talks about 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:25.359 a an article in The New Yorker that is about 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:27.920 it's called guinea pigging, I believe, and it's about this 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:32.239 soap culture of clinical drug trial participants who have their 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:36.520 own like publications that show like who's what upcoming drug 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:39.399 trials are, are are in the pipeline and how much 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:42.880 they're gonna pay and that kind of stuff. So there's 0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:46.280 a concern that, like, yeah, these people are kind of 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:50.000 hooked on this lifestyle. My thing is is like to 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:52.479 each his own, sure, you know, yeah, I mean, if 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:54.880 they're if there are no laws being broken and they're 0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:57.240 getting paid and they're willing to do this instead of 0:21:57.280 --> 0:22:02.840 going to get a chop delivering pizzas, then you know, frankly, 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:05.639 if they can get my pizza to me and stay safe, 0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:09.280 not harm other people, and deliver a delicious pizza. Still 0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:10.800 I don't care if they're in the midst of a 0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:13.480 drug trial. Right. Then, here's another thing I didn't know 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:15.800 that I thought was interesting in this article is that 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:18.200 they kind of put the pedal to the metal when 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:21.119 it comes to these trials because a US drug patent 0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:23.520 only last for twenty years, and so if you're hung 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:27.040 up for a decade and research and testing, which can happen, 0:22:27.520 --> 0:22:29.880 then that they don't start it over once you get 0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:33.320 it approved. You've got only ten years left to make 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:36.399 you know, serious money, and they speed these things along. 0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:39.360 They do. Now, if you're running it through university, they 0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:44.600 generally have well, universities have a reputation for being total 0:22:44.680 --> 0:22:49.840 sticklers when it comes to um institutional review boards, right um. 0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:52.199 So as a result, I think that a lot of 0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:54.640 drug companies have found that if you run it instead 0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:57.679 through a private organization that does the clinical trials for you, 0:22:58.040 --> 0:22:59.760 and then all of a sudden, you can walk around 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:02.560 all out of these ethical guidelines or you know, safe 0:23:02.560 --> 0:23:07.359 conditions and yet again outsourcing to private contractors for money. 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:13.000 It's uh, just it's the way to get around things exactly. 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:18.440 So that's medical experimentation. There's a this is a really 0:23:18.440 --> 0:23:22.399 cool article. It's slightly outside of the how Stuff Works voice. 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:25.119 Robert Lamb put his all in all into it. He 0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:27.440 put his Lamb stamp on it. He did at the 0:23:27.520 --> 0:23:29.600