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Speaker 1: All right, Gary, thanks so much for joining me today.

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Speaker 1: Super excited to sit down and catch up and really

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Speaker 1: see what I can learn from you. You know, I

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Speaker 1: try to approach these these I don't even want to

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Speaker 1: call them interviews, just conversations, as just a way to learn,

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Speaker 1: learn what I can learn, and hopefully the audience enjoys

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Speaker 1: that as well. And there's so much that we can

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Speaker 1: learn from well from everybody, but I'm really excited to

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Speaker 1: learn some stuff from you. So anyway, thanks for taking

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Speaker 1: the time to join me today.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, man, you've had You've had quite the career.

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Speaker 1: And you know, when I look at sort of over

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Speaker 1: your resume, if you will, a pretty extensive career in

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Speaker 1: a lot of different areas. So we'll get down to

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Speaker 1: that later, like you know, potentially how different disciplines sort

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Speaker 1: of helps you. So I want to talk about a

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Speaker 1: couple of big topics. One, I want to kind of

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Speaker 1: talk about some energy stuff. I think it's a really

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Speaker 1: big topic for everybody right now. It's something I spent

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Speaker 1: a lot of time focusing on. I want to get

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Speaker 1: into just investing in general. I mean, you have your

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Speaker 1: venture fund, so I want to talk about some of

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Speaker 1: the ways that you process deals and how you do

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Speaker 1: investments and how you think about operations for those things.

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Speaker 1: And then I want to get into you know, your

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Speaker 1: brother and as well you kind of known for this

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Speaker 1: real estate. We'll talk a little bit about real estate

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Speaker 1: and then bitcoin of course, and maybe some of the

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Speaker 1: correlations between those and different ways to invest into that,

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Speaker 1: and then maybe tie it all together with how we

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Speaker 1: look at energy and investing in real estate, and then

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Speaker 1: it brings it all into bitcoin. So we'll see if

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Speaker 1: that's not too ambitious, So see what we can get

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Speaker 1: through on that. But I see, going back to sort

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Speaker 1: of like I said to your resume, I see you

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Speaker 1: work for a company, Dying Energy, where you kind of

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Speaker 1: started out working there, and specifically it says that you

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Speaker 1: were working in the European business market and so you know,

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Speaker 1: I know, and I think even in like the natural

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Speaker 1: gas markets, and you sort of exited that company. I know,

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Speaker 1: it's probably been a long time one. I'm just curious.

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Speaker 1: I mean, is this something that you still pay attention to?

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Speaker 1: I mean it's energy, right, I mean you still kind

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Speaker 1: of watching what's going on in the European natural gas

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Speaker 1: markets or energy markets in general.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah, I do pay attention to it tonight at

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Speaker 2: the micro level. I mean, I'm not trading energy. Known

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Speaker 2: a lot of men who have left their wives widows

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Speaker 2: by trading at gas and electricity. They are brutal and crude.

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Speaker 2: All I know two guys on the planet that have

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Speaker 2: made long term money trading crude. All these are really

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Speaker 2: really distinct commodities and they have a lot of geopolitical

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Speaker 2: and local issues that are created you can't hedge against.

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Speaker 2: But yes, I do watch it. I appreciate your point

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Speaker 2: on Hey, there was two pipelines blown up. That was

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Speaker 2: an acted freaking war in terror in my opinion, and

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Speaker 2: has really changed the supply chain logistics, and I think

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Speaker 2: probably put the United States in a position where they're

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Speaker 2: selling a tremendous amount of energy to Europe within weeks

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Speaker 2: after the pipelines blew up. You know, So there's a

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Speaker 2: whole play going on here. I think. I think you're

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Speaker 2: going to see Europe turn into a totally green, one

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Speaker 2: grain nuclear industry and they'll just float, you know, three

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Speaker 2: trillion dollars worth of bonds fifty to one hundred year

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Speaker 2: bonds and turn Europe into a nuclear power community, which

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Speaker 2: really put long term, it's going to have a lot

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Speaker 2: of long term impacts on global energy if that happens.

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Speaker 2: So there's a lot going on. It's worthy to watch

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Speaker 2: for sure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it matters because I mean energy

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Speaker 1: sits at the bottom of every market and economy, and

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Speaker 1: so like I think, you know, I want to get into,

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Speaker 1: like I said, just general investing, venture investing in real estate,

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Speaker 1: and then of course bitcoin. But when I think about bitcoin,

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Speaker 1: I think about, like, you know, we have this nation

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Speaker 1: technology that's growing and there's massive growth potential there. But

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Speaker 1: then sort of we have this like macro picture that

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Speaker 1: hangs over everything, and like if the entire crashed, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's going to just drag everything with it. So I

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Speaker 1: think it's like kind of important to sort of understand

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Speaker 1: these different disciplines and so you know, again being with

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Speaker 1: energy sort of underpinning this. If it could potentially cause

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Speaker 1: massive disruption to the global markets, I mean, this is

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Speaker 1: something that we should be paying attention to. I think

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Speaker 1: about to your point, you know, the pipeline that got sabotaged,

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Speaker 1: I think general consensus even out of the United States

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Speaker 1: now as it was probably Ukraine in behalf of the

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Speaker 1: United States doing that it seems like even the New

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Speaker 1: York Times is saying that now. But sort of going

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Speaker 1: back to that, it looks like like last year Europe

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Speaker 1: sort of got saved by this like abnormal warm year,

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Speaker 1: and now this year already it seems like it's gotten

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Speaker 1: much much colder. They're burning through their stockpiles much faster

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Speaker 1: than they were before. And so the United States is,

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Speaker 1: to your point, right, jumping in to fill that gap.

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Speaker 1: But what happens if, you know, because the United States

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Speaker 1: energy is super cheap compared to the world natural gas specifically, right,

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Speaker 1: very cheap compared to the world, if they're able to

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Speaker 1: export a good amount of energy to the rest of

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Speaker 1: the world, Europe specifically where it's much more expensive, which

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Speaker 1: of course the European I'm sorry, the US energy producers

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Speaker 1: would want. Wouldn't that wreck energy prices for US in

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Speaker 1: the United States?

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Speaker 2: Or not? Really? You mean by driving you mean by

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Speaker 2: driving them up because too much new demand?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I mean if you're you know, if we

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Speaker 1: can sell it for two three dollars in mcf in

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Speaker 1: the US, but it's twenty five over in Europe, I mean,

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Speaker 1: how does that equalize the market?

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Speaker 2: Well, you got you got it there. There's a huge

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Speaker 2: locational differential. You got to you know, there's big capital

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Speaker 2: costs to put it on a big tanker. You're roughly

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Speaker 2: two eighty three dollars here. Look, they're short in Europe.

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Speaker 2: Europe produces nothing. They don't produce their own food on scale,

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Speaker 2: they don't produce their own energy. Each country doesn't even

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Speaker 2: have its own bank. It's literally being controlled by three

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Speaker 2: or four people that you and I don't know. No

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Speaker 2: one voted these people in office. They're just part of

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Speaker 2: the euro construct and NATO sitting there. NATO is holding

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Speaker 2: the euro together and the European Union, and uh, I

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Speaker 2: just think it's all falling apart. So you know, Russia

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Speaker 2: has been selling energy to Germans far deeper, cheaper than

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Speaker 2: we're going to ever sell it to them. They have

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Speaker 2: been the discounted decatherm, the discounted kilowatt, and they are

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Speaker 2: now going to find other places to sell that energy.

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Speaker 2: So I actually think this is going to turn around

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Speaker 2: where you're going to see energy prices fall because of

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Speaker 2: what has been done, the collateral consequences of what many

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Speaker 2: of these politicians, it's professional politicians, these decisions like have

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Speaker 2: a lot of really long lasting collateral impacts like dominoes falling,

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Speaker 2: and there is so much energy on the planet. Mark

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Speaker 2: at one hundred dollars crude all or four dollars nat gas,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't really I think we can continue to find

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Speaker 2: energy at or around these prices. And the truth is

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Speaker 2: if we export them to Europe, they're gonna have to

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Speaker 2: pay whatever they have to pay to get it there

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Speaker 2: because they if we keep all of these you know, okay,

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Speaker 2: that guy, you can't buy from that guy. I mean,

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Speaker 2: this does not work in any market in the world

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Speaker 2: where you can tell people who they can and cannot

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Speaker 2: buy from. It's only benefiting other countries like India, which

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Speaker 2: may be a good thing, okay, but India is really

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Speaker 2: benefiting from this. No crude all stop just because it's

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Speaker 2: got a Russian flag on the crude oil barrel. It's

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Speaker 2: still being sold and it's still moving on this planet.

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Speaker 2: And that's what fungible products do. That is exactly what

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Speaker 2: bitcoin will do without all the transportation and the heaviness

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Speaker 2: and the big ships being exposed. If you get crudell,

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Speaker 2: you really get bitcoins so quickly, it's unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: Why is that? What do you mean by that, how is?

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Speaker 1: How is? I have some comparisons to oil and bitcoin,

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Speaker 1: but I'm curious what your comparisons are. How do you

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Speaker 1: get oil you get bitcoin?

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Speaker 2: Well, well, let's say that you're a Russian oligarch and

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Speaker 2: you own a billion acres of fossil rich fossil fuel

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Speaker 2: rich geology. Why would you pay a transportation company three

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Speaker 2: thousand miles to move a decatherm of energy when you

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Speaker 2: could place a data center instead of building pipelines that

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Speaker 2: get blown up. You place a data center right next

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Speaker 2: to your natural gas facility which is producing natural gas

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Speaker 2: at about a dollar or twenty cents, but by the

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Speaker 2: time it gets to Germany, it's been upgraded to three

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Speaker 2: dollars because of transport costs. Just like you or not,

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Speaker 2: you or I getting on a train, Okay, we have

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Speaker 2: a delayed to get to where we're going, and we

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Speaker 2: have to pay. We're not you and I are not

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Speaker 2: having to get on a train now, So we've arbitraged

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Speaker 2: the train experience. I think putin if if I was

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Speaker 2: running his energy division, I can assure you they're all

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Speaker 2: younger than me and you. These guys are going to

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Speaker 2: look at I can convert natural gas to a USB

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Speaker 2: and then move that energy anywhere anywhere one. I mean,

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Speaker 2: if there was too little energy on the planet, they

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Speaker 2: don't have to mind bitcoin. They can just produce those

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Speaker 2: deca therms into the marketplace and the marketplace will pay you. However,

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Speaker 2: what if in the case of an over supplied situation,

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Speaker 2: which I maintained we were always oversupplied last thirty years,

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Speaker 2: we have been oversupplied with energy and it always shows

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Speaker 2: up because at one hundred dollars, if you notice one

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Speaker 2: hundred dollars, it can't get past one hundred dollars and

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Speaker 2: stay there. All the fracking that we discovered did not occur.

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Speaker 2: That innovation did not occur at one hundred dollars. It

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Speaker 2: occurred at ten to thirty because the scientists, the geologists,

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Speaker 2: the drillers figured out, shit, we want to keep drilling.

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Speaker 2: We've got to figure out how to do it at thirty,

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Speaker 2: not at seventy. And that's where innovation showed up. So

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Speaker 2: I think you're going to see arbitrage. A natural thing

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Speaker 2: for people to do a Pootin would do would be

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Speaker 2: to arbitrage the availability the ability to produce or refine

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Speaker 2: natural gas into another product called bitcoin. It's no different

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Speaker 2: than making a liquid gasoline, right, a distillate Bitcoin will

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Speaker 2: have its own market share, So why you wouldn't want

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Speaker 2: to go for the highest margin yielding refined product. I

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Speaker 2: think that's what markets.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's the point of it there, right, I think

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Speaker 1: the highest yielding Right, that's the point. So it's like

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Speaker 1: if I can get three or four bucks an MCF

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Speaker 1: selling the m the gas, but I could get ten

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Speaker 1: dollars mcf putting it into bitcoin, I'm gonna put into bitcoin.

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Speaker 1: And so then you see, you know, potentially Russia taking

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Speaker 1: a large amount of natural gas off, right, Plus you

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Speaker 1: said transportation cost, political risks, all those types of things.

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Speaker 1: So then it's like, well, it's a higher economic return

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Speaker 1: if I just put it in a bitcoin. I can

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Speaker 1: put it on a USB drive, as you said, send

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Speaker 1: it into the world over the internet. At some point,

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Speaker 1: maybe this is what a market. This is what a

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Speaker 1: market does. But at some point maybe then because all

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Speaker 1: that natural gas comes off the market, it pushes the

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Speaker 1: price of gas up, and then maybe it starts to

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Speaker 1: be a better return to go back to gas at

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Speaker 1: some point. But I guess that's sort of how the

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Speaker 1: market would would play out to be interesting to see.

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Speaker 1: But I guess to your point, there's so much abundance

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Speaker 1: in that natural gas that maybe they just want to

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Speaker 1: continue to put it in and put it into that

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Speaker 1: into the bitcoin.

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Speaker 2: Well, look, we just took a one point seven million

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Speaker 2: barrel as a crew it all off the market after

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Speaker 2: the pipelines blew up. Now crude all has nothing to

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Speaker 2: do with those pipelines, but China's demand must be off.

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Speaker 2: The just have fallen off the cliff for one Saudy

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Speaker 2: company to I think it was a ram code to

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Speaker 2: remove a million and then putin said we're going to

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Speaker 2: take seven hundred off and now Opek collectively is talking

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Speaker 2: about another million. Well, if you're taking all this supply

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Speaker 2: off the market, where's the demand because the price is

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Speaker 2: not going up. Furthermore, twenty percent of off ussil fuel. Man,

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Speaker 2: it's leaked all over the place. This is one of

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Speaker 2: the most inefficient industries. It's one hundred year old pipes. Okay,

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Speaker 2: so there's leaking, there's inconsistencies, there's swaps that you lose.

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Speaker 2: It's just a lot of friction. By no means is

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Speaker 2: the energy market efficient. And like if I can, let's

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Speaker 2: say crude all is at fifty dollars and that gas

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Speaker 2: is at two dollars. If I sell into a two

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Speaker 2: dollars market, I have to print that cash, that income.

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Speaker 2: But what if I can store that same amount of

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Speaker 2: money a billion dollars of natural gas that I was

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Speaker 2: going to sell in March, I actually go, hey, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to roll it till September. How do I roll it?

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Speaker 2: I don't have to go to storage companies and roll it.

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Speaker 2: I can roll it in a bitcoin right, and then

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Speaker 2: I move my time and only I have very little cost.

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Speaker 2: I only have the cost of the cost of capital

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Speaker 2: to hold that in a vault that is not subject

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Speaker 2: to being blown up. It's not subject to restraints or

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Speaker 2: constraints by any US government or any government for that matter.

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Speaker 2: For a piece of my energy. We're not talking about

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Speaker 2: all the energy. We're talking about just a little marginal piece,

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Speaker 2: maybe three percent, five ten percent. I maintain that the

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Speaker 2: biggest most successful miners in the world will be fossil

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Speaker 2: fuel producers, sovereigns and super major oil companies. They will

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Speaker 2: be the most effective miners going forward, probably end up

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Speaker 2: buying Marathon Riot if they have to. And that's where

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Speaker 2: the that's where Bitcoin will be produced from those energy producers,

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Speaker 2: nuclear power stations, full on nuclear power stations. We'll start

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Speaker 2: selling eighty percent load factor for the first time in

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Speaker 2: their lives. They can actually be a storage facility and

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Speaker 2: not have to sell base load. That's nuclear's biggest problem.

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Speaker 2: They have to sell baseload. There's no modulating like you

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Speaker 2: would a gas plant turning it on, turning it off,

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Speaker 2: turning you know, lowering the volume. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if you think about it, to your point, right,

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Speaker 1: we have this abundant energy. The whole world operated on

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Speaker 1: this theory called peak energy until about two thousand and eight,

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Speaker 1: where we thought we were going to run out of energy,

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Speaker 1: and then that was just proven to your point with

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Speaker 1: fracking things like that, And of course human ingenuity always

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Speaker 1: finds a way somehow. But you know, in regards to

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Speaker 1: sort of where we're at in the world, something I've

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Speaker 1: been talking a lot about, which you know, I got

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Speaker 1: it from sort of the zolt On Posar talking about,

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Speaker 1: but really sort of the shift from you know, the

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Speaker 1: world had been on commodity money for five thousand years.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy one, we got off of the gold standard.

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Speaker 1: We've been in this fifty one year fifty two year

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Speaker 1: experiment of this paper money, and the world's rejected that

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Speaker 1: that paper money experiment is over. It's fallen apart, and

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Speaker 1: we're seeing this where these nations are now. China bought

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Speaker 1: half the lithium mines in the world. They don't want

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Speaker 1: US treasuries. They'd rather have lithium in the ground, right,

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Speaker 1: And we see Opec and Russia saying, hey, we'll just

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Speaker 1: hold oil in the ground. Why would I pump more

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Speaker 1: oil out of the ground at this price. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to sit in the US treasuries. That's losing money.

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Speaker 1: I'd rather just keep the oil in the ground. But

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Speaker 1: now I kind of you know, the picture you're painting,

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Speaker 1: I guess, so to speak, is that, well, now they

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Speaker 1: could continue pumping the oil or natural gas, whatever that

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Speaker 1: energy out of the ground, but now get it for

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Speaker 1: the one hundred dollars a barrel, even though that's not

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Speaker 1: where the market is, because they can put it into bitcoin.

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Speaker 1: So rather than say I'll just keep the oil on

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Speaker 1: the ground, they could get more oil on the ground,

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Speaker 1: but now store it in something other than US treasuries.

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Speaker 1: And so that's a pretty big shift. I think that

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Speaker 1: we could see happen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's big, and I think if you do the research,

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Speaker 2: you'll find that the net present value calculation of keeping

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Speaker 2: energy in the ground, it's a twenty year decision. Every

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Speaker 2: deck of therm you keep on the ground, you're literally

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Speaker 2: rolling out eighteen to twenty years. It's a bad trade man,

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Speaker 2: And because you have so many different producers, you have

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Speaker 2: a quasi cartel that doesn't function anymore. It's literally not

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Speaker 2: functioning as a cartel. My example, just a little while ago,

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Speaker 2: one country set a million barrels coming off. Oh gosh,

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Speaker 2: they now have a public entity called a Ramco. Isn't

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Speaker 2: that amazing? And then Putin decided to pull off seven

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Speaker 2: hundred thousand barrels. Right, the price didn't go up like

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Speaker 2: it might have gone up for a day or two,

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Speaker 2: but it's right back down to where it was seventy

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Speaker 2: one bucks. They're making ten dollars a barrel in Europe,

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Speaker 2: and they're making fifteen to twenty dollars barrels here. There's

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Speaker 2: not been a dry well drilled in five years. Dude,

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Speaker 2: I have not heard of a dryway. Have you even

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Speaker 2: heard the word dry hole? Like there aren't any dry

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Speaker 2: holes anymore. This is pure science. They know exactly what

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Speaker 2: they're going to tap into, where they're going to tap into,

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Speaker 2: and they can accelerate, which is amazing. See that's what

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Speaker 2: bitcoin can't do. Bitcoin, you cannot accelerate the production of bitcoin.

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Speaker 2: You can put water, Just push water in pressure down

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Speaker 2: a hole and accelerate the volume of crude oil anytime

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Speaker 2: you want, or natural gas if the price peaks. I

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Speaker 2: don't think you're going to see peak prices peak oil.

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Speaker 2: Like that very cold day in Germany, you're never going

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Speaker 2: to have enough energy. But on an average day, I

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Speaker 2: think we have energy for a long long time. And

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Speaker 2: if the greenies were smart, they let crude all go

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Speaker 2: three hundred bucks. But they keep talking about suppressing prices, taxes,

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Speaker 2: everything's too high. They're so dumb they should let crude

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Speaker 2: all I was with Beck, I said, dude, let's go

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Speaker 2: to three hundred dollars crudle twelve dollars gasoline, and we'll

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Speaker 2: stop war tomorrow morning. There will be no reason to

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Speaker 2: have war at three hundred dollars crule. And then I

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Speaker 2: would because what are you fighting over? Everybody's making money, man,

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Speaker 2: America would like the oil companies make so much money.

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Speaker 2: Consumers would control their consumption better. Okay, I maintain energy

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Speaker 2: in the United States and Western Europe is way too cheap,

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Speaker 2: especially here, and I think I can prove it to

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Speaker 2: your audience. If ninety nine percent of the people didn't

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Speaker 2: turn their laptop computer off last night, I'm pretty sure

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Speaker 2: electricity is not priced correctly. I don't leave my refrigerator

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Speaker 2: wide open at night, right I don't leave my car

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Speaker 2: running all evening. I turn it off. So when electricity

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Speaker 2: is priced correctly, I'm going to start turning things off.

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Speaker 2: We're addicted to convenience.

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Speaker 1: Well, that might be easy for you to say. I'm

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Speaker 1: guessing there's a lot of people making an a medium

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Speaker 1: wage in the US that would probably beg to differ,

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Speaker 1: that can barely afford their gas to get to get

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Speaker 1: to working back in twelve dollars gasoline would just absolutely

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Speaker 1: crush them.

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Speaker 2: They pay ten dollars in Europe right now. Okay, what

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Speaker 2: they do is they don't they don't walk to they

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Speaker 2: don't drive to the grocery store for lower Brett. All

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Speaker 2: I'm saying is that we are very abusive of what

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Speaker 2: we have and energy because we don't turn it off.

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Speaker 2: That tells me it's not price correctly, right, it's priced

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Speaker 2: in a way that allows us to be lazy. Just

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Speaker 2: give you. I mean, we could probably do an hour

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Speaker 2: on this, because it's a really interesting conversation. If you

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Speaker 2: removed all of the TVs at source, pull the plug

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Speaker 2: out from the UK, there's seventy two million homes in

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Speaker 2: the United Kingdom, that's four hundred megawatt coal fired power

366
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Speaker 2: station coming off the grid. If you were to do that,

367
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Speaker 2: remove the power card from the TV outlet, Okay, that

368
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Speaker 2: standing energy consumes an entire power station, coal fired power station.

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Speaker 2: Imagine that all over the world, especially on the West.

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Speaker 2: Because like, I've got eight TVs here, dude, They're all

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Speaker 2: plugged in. They're all sucking energy and I never turned

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Speaker 2: them off.

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Speaker 1: So well, you unplug them, they're turned off. They're just there.

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Speaker 1: They're turned off.

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Speaker 2: Energy though, to be stand their stand so that I

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Speaker 2: can hit a button and they instantly go on without

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Speaker 2: any warm up. They is sucking energy from the universe.

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Speaker 2: So all I'm saying is, if it was priced correctly,

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Speaker 2: there'd probably be a company that created out there that

380
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,399
Speaker 2: would sell a card that would like disconnect. This is

381
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Speaker 2: not complex. Somebody could have done this a long time ago.

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Speaker 2: There's just no juice in it.

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Speaker 1: For lack of a pun, Well, that's because what you

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Speaker 1: said earlier, which is we have no shortage of energy,

385
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Speaker 1: and so back to the market, the market is always

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Speaker 1: going to price it correctly if you will. Obviously, government

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Speaker 1: regulations and so forth sort of gummed that up a

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Speaker 1: little bit. But we have so much abundant injury. That's

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Speaker 1: that's why it is cheap.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's cheap here, right, and it's abundant here, and.

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Speaker 1: But government regulations want to change that. So you talk

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Speaker 1: about Europe. Energy is expensive in Europe, but yeah, because

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Speaker 1: Germany shut off the freaking energy man. And like I'm

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Speaker 1: in California. In California, we talk about natural gas being cheap,

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Speaker 1: and natural gas has gotten cheaper. It's the most abundant

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Speaker 1: enjurgy source we have in the United States. In California

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Speaker 1: and natural gas, my natural gas bill went up four

398
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Speaker 1: hundred percent. Like what the heck? How did my natural

399
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Speaker 1: gas bill go up four hundred percent when natural gas

400
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Speaker 1: came down. It's it's it's pretty insane. So that's the

401
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 1: government regulation, the artificial scarcity that's put into place, and

402
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Speaker 1: that I'm sure you're aware. I mean earthly affects the

403
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 1: lower income people. I mean that's a massive chunk to

404
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,959
Speaker 1: their profitability. And restaurants. My friend that owns a restaurant,

405
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Speaker 1: he can barely keep his doors open anymore. His energy

406
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Speaker 1: bills went from you know, four hundred month over three

407
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Speaker 1: thousand dollars a month they put in California, they put

408
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Speaker 1: this is this is a different topic, but they put

409
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Speaker 1: a thirty percent tax on pork because of emissions, right,

410
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Speaker 1: and that goes into government regulations. But energy, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: they put these costs on energy, and like, he can't

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Speaker 1: pass those energy price increases into his consumers on the

413
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Speaker 1: price of food, so he's getting squeeze at the margins.

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Speaker 1: He can barely barely stay open. So I don't know.

415
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Speaker 1: I think I think the market's efficient to I think

416
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Speaker 1: to the point that you're making, though I agree that

417
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Speaker 1: typically we would say that high prices are the cure for

418
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Speaker 1: high prices. So if if energy prices got high enough,

419
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Speaker 1: then people will figure out a card for their TV

420
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 1: disconnected or whatever, like, we'll figure out a way to

421
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Speaker 1: use less of it at some point.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and you know, not to be disagreeable, but

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Speaker 2: I think markets are rarely, rarely, rarely ever efficient.

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Speaker 1: They're they're disagreeable. It's more fun that way.

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Speaker 2: They're they're never price right. Okay, like this idea that

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Speaker 2: Wall Street is some fucking god. Okay, Look, we don't

427
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Speaker 2: do good at predicting prices and making allocations of data

428
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 2: because the data is skewed, like there's no actual real data.

429
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Speaker 2: I don't know what CPI really is. It doesn't feel

430
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Speaker 2: like what it came out did three point one percent today.

431
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,400
Speaker 2: It feels different to me than that because I look

432
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 2: at a price of a dozen eggs and it's like, wow,

433
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,920
Speaker 2: now your crazy country is doing exactly what Europe did,

434
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 2: which is, hey, we don't want to be energy intensive.

435
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 2: We don't want to have drilling rigs, we don't want

436
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 2: to have refineries around like they do in Louisiana, Texas.

437
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,120
Speaker 2: California doesn't want any of that ugly stuff. It's all

438
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 2: nail polish and lip gloss. Let's not have any power

439
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 2: stations here, dude, you guys are gonna wake up one day.

440
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 2: You're going to pay forty thousand dollars for power because

441
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 2: the guys in Vegas they're going to take it from me.

442
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 2: Because it's moving right through Vegas, and then the guys

443
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,160
Speaker 2: from Arizona, those utilities are going to take it because

444
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 2: it's moving through there. You're at the very end of

445
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 2: the food chain, and you refuse to do anything down

446
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 2: the ground or above the ground. In terms of making

447
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 2: the state look like a state that actually runs on

448
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 2: its own energy sources, I like, one day California is

449
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 2: going to wake up, dude, the water's not going to

450
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,160
Speaker 2: be flowing, and you're gonna have to pay forty thousand dollars.

451
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 2: It's that's an inevitability.

452
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I mean already we have you know,

453
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: I think we're like ten times higher than we're not

454
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: ten times, about five times higher. I mean, in we

455
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 1: have a tiered energy system, and so in the summer

456
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,199
Speaker 1: we're being you know, forty five cents a kill a

457
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 1: lot hour, like forty five cents at the top tier.

458
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,880
Speaker 1: Right in Texas, it's like eight right some states it's

459
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: even less than that. So yeah, we're paying, we're paying

460
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 1: for it for sure. Let's let's let's keep it going.

461
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 1: I want to get into more about investing and then

462
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 1: we'll kind of tile this back together. But uh, you

463
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 1: your company now, so you've sort of exited the energy markets.

464
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 1: You had another company you're in like a capital allocation business,

465
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: private equity, and now you have your own firm, Card

466
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 1: one Ventures, a play on your name, as you told me.

467
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: Instead of Card down the one, the own is the one.

468
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 1: I like, that's a good, good play on that. But

469
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 1: but Card one Ventures, and so let's talk about that

470
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 1: for a minute, Like, I'm curious, you know, having exited

471
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,679
Speaker 1: businesses before having successful exits working for private equity. Obviously

472
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 1: you've been allocating capital for some time with Card one Ventures.

473
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: How are you looking at allocating capital any specific markets?

474
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 1: I know obviously you're very interested in bitcoin and technology,

475
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: but is that your main focus? Are there other focuses?

476
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: And then how do you go about finding companies and

477
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 1: deals that you like in those spaces?

478
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 2: Well, Card one Ventures is really about and Card owned

479
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 2: Digital Ventures is about investing in the future. So I've

480
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,439
Speaker 2: been in energy payments. You made the comment about the

481
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 2: European business. I spent fourteen years there building two really

482
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 2: big businesses in the energy space. So I got a

483
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 2: lot of understanding of lobbying and change and how the

484
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 2: governments work with these new ideas. Look, I am a

485
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 2: really concentrated human being. I don't. I'm not a good

486
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 2: multitasker at all, so I tend to go into one area.

487
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 2: I think this digital space is so large. I've committed

488
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 2: the rest of my life into this space. I don't

489
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 2: have time to be an energy guy and the payments

490
00:26:54,880 --> 00:27:00,160
Speaker 2: guy and then a digital crypto bitcoin guy. This opportunity

491
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 2: is so large. I basically have sold everything I possibly

492
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 2: could that required operational involvement. I had bought a lot

493
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 2: of bitcoin over since twenty and eighteen, started really turning

494
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 2: on a lot of volume about two and a half

495
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 2: years ago and ran into node forty, and I had

496
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 2: this whole venture idea if I could find some technologists

497
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 2: that were humble enough to realize just because you have

498
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 2: a great idea does not mean that you are a

499
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 2: great general or a great strategist. I've met a lot

500
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 2: of Palo Alto people, and one thing, you know, they

501
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 2: know how to do free really well. But I don't

502
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 2: believe in free. I think actually free is bad. It

503
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 2: creates bad incentives. I like knowing what I'm paying. Okay,

504
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 2: so if I walk into a range Rover dealer and

505
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 2: he's like, hey, this is a two hundred thousand dollar car.

506
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 2: I'm keeping my car, man, I'll wait till these prices

507
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 2: come down. It's not right value for me. So I

508
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 2: think this industry could consume probably six businesses like analytics, reporting, analysis,

509
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 2: big data tracking, accounting, audits. Has nothing to do with bitcoin,

510
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 2: except it has everything to do with digital assets. And

511
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 2: I think we're we are moving down this slippery slope

512
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 2: of digital We went from you know, the big Vinyl

513
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 2: reel listening to the Beatles to now I've got a

514
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 2: telephone that's got forty thousand freaking pieces of music and

515
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 2: I'm paying four subscriptions. Man, Okay, I'm paying four subscriptions.

516
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 2: Talk about how deadly technology can be. I'm buying music

517
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 2: from Spotify on an Apple iPhone. Apple's music thing is

518
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 2: embedded in that technology. I pay twelve hundred dollars for

519
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 2: the bloody phone, and in Apple pretty much destroyed the

520
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 2: music industry in stage one right, put it on a

521
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 2: little little thing, and I'm not listening to their music.

522
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 2: It's amazing to me, right, So I look at businesses

523
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 2: that are needed and wanted that will currently are required

524
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 2: in the legacy world. All of those industries will be

525
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 2: required in the digital world.

526
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: So service at service based companies, Oh totally dude.

527
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 2: Reporting there's forty three thousand tax in accounting companies in

528
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 2: the United States alone, four and a half million people

529
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 2: accounting for legacy assets. Now this is already one point

530
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 2: three trillion dollar industry. I think it's going to a

531
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 2: twenty or thirty trillion dollar industry. None of those old

532
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 2: companies know how to do this on digital. This is

533
00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 2: not like tracking a title on a on a home

534
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 2: or the purchase price of a home. So there's tons

535
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 2: of these businesses. You know, there's the mining business. So

536
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 2: I want to be in a place where I have

537
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: a choice to buy bitcoin or hey, let me take

538
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 2: let me go invest money in a business that has

539
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 2: some operational risk, has some human errrow risk, but it

540
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 2: feeds the industry. It actually helps the industry expand. I

541
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 2: am not one of these guys that have any intention

542
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 2: on buying bitcoin, holding it forever and ever and ever

543
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 2: and never selling it. I actually want to sell it

544
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 2: so that I can reinvest in the industry at some point,

545
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 2: so that the industry expands. Right and to me, like

546
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 2: these industries need investment and we can leave it to

547
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 2: JP market to do all the investing. I would actually

548
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 2: like bitcoin to perform like you, and I think it's

549
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 2: going to do, so that I can roll my investment

550
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 2: in the space. I become more wealthy, and you become

551
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 2: more wealthy, and then we can protect We can invest

552
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 2: in this industry and not have a bunch of outsiders

553
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 2: with really tons of capital and insight and they come

554
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 2: in and take the whole market. So when you have

555
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 2: an opportunity like this, I start shifting everything I used

556
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 2: to do and focus on this area. It's proven to

557
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 2: be really really one, very fun and very rewarding. I

558
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 2: never get the glittery object syndrome where I'm looking over here, right,

559
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 2: I'm actually looking at you. Okay, there's enough people for

560
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 2: me to learn to know. I need to know more

561
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: about mining, how the economics, economics of that work. I'm

562
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 2: more concerned about the economics than I am in the politics.

563
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that. It's sort of like the Warren

564
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: Buffett investing principle of instead of diversification or diversification, it's

565
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: really about concentration in right, and so Warren Buffett calls

566
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 1: it like his deal box.

567
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 2: Right.

568
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: He only invests into the core things that he knows, understands,

569
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:07,959
Speaker 1: and he believes in concentration. And if you look at

570
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: most of the big investors, well, the ones that we

571
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: know about, the successful ones, they've all got that way

572
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: through concentration. And so that makes sense that you want

573
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: to sort of focus on where you see not only

574
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 1: probably the biggest opportunity, the most alpha, if you will,

575
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: but probably also where your interest lies as well. Right, So,

576
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: like there's probably lots of other areas you can go

577
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: make money, but not only do you see there's a

578
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: big money making opportunity, but also probably very interesting for you,

579
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 1: so that you're sort of chasing your I hate to

580
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: use the word passion, but something that gives you excitement, right,

581
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: I mean you love it and it has massive legs.

582
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 2: You know.

583
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: I think back to sort of this like oil analogy. Right,

584
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: if you look at like oil as the commodity, and

585
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 1: you can think about, you know, the millions or tens

586
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: of millions of technologies that are built around the oil industry,

587
00:32:55,360 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: from sonar for ships to you know, petroleum transfer pressurizer

588
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: to you know, measurement technique. I mean there's there's there's

589
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: a billion I mean like the new the new head

590
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 1: on the on the on the drill rig or whatever

591
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: it may be. And so then we have sort of

592
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: bitcoin being this commodity asset as well, and then potentially

593
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: billions of technologies that we've built around the bitcoin industry

594
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: as well to kind of facilitate that that that sort

595
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: of commodity if you will. You know, I don't know

596
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: if if bitcoin, I mean obviously doesn't have a million

597
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: use cases like oil, Like oil goes into sneakers and

598
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: cleaners and things like that, but the industry itself I

599
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 1: think could be built out very similar to your point.

600
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: You know, not only just in the mining space, there's

601
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: unlimited amount of potential there, but you know, to your point,

602
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: services software, tracking, payment facility facilities, things like that. You

603
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: do have this like payments background as well. Node forty

604
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: is more about like reporting and things like that, like

605
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: tracking reporting. Uh, I'm curious what you think about it

606
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: from a payments standpoint. I know when we had met

607
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: or talked before at the Bitcoin conference whenever that was

608
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: this summer, this last summer, you were kind of talking

609
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 1: about the amount of chargebacks that payment companies deal with

610
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 1: and how costly that is for them. Of course, bitcoin

611
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: is final settlement, so I'm just curious what your take

612
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 1: is about using bitcoin in the payment space, where that

613
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 1: potential is and if that's something also that you're focusing on.

614
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot in that question. I think that

615
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 2: if you look at the plumbing I see. I look

616
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 2: at the payments industry as a fifty to sixty year

617
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 2: old plumbing industry, and the plumbing is falling apart. Okay,

618
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 2: what does plumbing look like? There's only three or four

619
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 2: major banks Okay, well as far Ago, JP, Morgan, Chase

620
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 2: to the rest of Most of these people visa massacart

621
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 2: or not a bank. They are a vendor, vendor and vendor.

622
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,359
Speaker 2: They literally take zero risks. There is no risk. You

623
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 2: cannot go into their p and L and say see

624
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 2: where they took any losses whatsoever. They're like a toll

625
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 2: between Germany and Switzerland, and the price is always Hey,

626
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 2: we make a fifty one percent net operating margin. When

627
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 2: you take your car across boom boom, boom boom. It

628
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 2: doesn't matter you stop your car, We're still making fifty

629
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 2: one percent. The car blows up, we make fifty one percent.

630
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 2: If the car doesn't make it, we make fifty one percent.

631
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 2: And if you decline to get through the border. Hey,

632
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 2: we make fifty one percent. I mean everything they do

633
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 2: makes fifty one percent. The other thing is the cost

634
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 2: of the chargeback. Six hundred and fifty six million chargebacks.

635
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 2: That's a visa number. They actually make money from these.

636
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 2: This is not a cost center. This is a you

637
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 2: said it, and most people say that, Hey, look there,

638
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 2: it's costing. No, it's costing Joe, consumer, me and you.

639
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 2: Six hundred and fifty six million events a year times

640
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 2: one hundred and eight dollars and thirty six cents, plus

641
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 2: the sixty two thousand amateurs that are employed. Sixty two

642
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 2: thousand people are employed at Barkley's and various banks issuing

643
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 2: and acquiring banks filing chargebacks like a ping pong game

644
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 2: between each other and in monsterly monsterly non noncentralized manner

645
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 2: with exquisite bias. Every player has bias. There, Okay, Barkley's issuing.

646
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 2: That's the consumer side of the bank is trying to

647
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 2: reduce the phone calls inbound because it's a twenty seven

648
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 2: dollars event. So what do they do. They create an

649
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 2: app and they say, hey, go on the City Bank

650
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 2: app and just dispute this the retailer's got eight percent refunds. Now,

651
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 2: can you imagine it going to one hundred podcasts and

652
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 2: they're all one hour and eight percent of them fail.

653
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 2: Can you imagine that? Right? The friction, So Joe Consumer's

654
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 2: paying for it how because the retailer gets screwed and

655
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,720
Speaker 2: they take their rates and they take them up further

656
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 2: and further and further. So now bitcoin comes along, right,

657
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:12,399
Speaker 2: and I think that the bitcoin decentralized marketing department, which

658
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 2: I was laughing about earlier. It took me two years

659
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 2: figured out, Oh wow, they're so bad on marketing because

660
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 2: they have no centralized marketing department, which is a problem, right,

661
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 2: because you're competing with people that invest tens of millions

662
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 2: of dollars at every rugby match, Visa MasterCard, Visa Massacard.

663
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 2: This is why it's so hard to get legacy players

664
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 2: to unwine their position because they have been robotized. Man. Okay,

665
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 2: like they think, like you notice this thing. Visa says,

666
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 2: we do thirty thousand transactions a second. Yeah, bro, but

667
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 2: you don't settle any of them. Okay, let's talk about

668
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 2: subtle transactions. But Joe Consumer doesn't understand that. See Joe Consumer.

669
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 2: Here's why does.

670
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: Joe consumer even care?

671
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:00,040
Speaker 2: He doesn't, Why do we tell him we're the some

672
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 2: one's bringing this shit up? Okay, like settlements the deal.

673
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 2: If you're a retailer, you care about settlement. Do I

674
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 2: have my money? Yes, I have my money, Thank you

675
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 2: very much. No refunds. So I think this is what

676
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 2: I think is going to happen. Mark, I think you're

677
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 2: going to find that the very richest part of the

678
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:26,720
Speaker 2: value chain and payments, gaming, gambling, digital anything only fans

679
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 2: or whatever that's called. The women do probably the guys

680
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 2: will do it one day, Adult pornography. All of those

681
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 2: are monster rich, fat margins that Visa MasterCard make that

682
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 2: all moves digital. The moment we're ready for prime time

683
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 2: to be able to take forty thousand transactions every thirty

684
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 2: minutes on adult or gaming or gambling. This game over

685
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 2: for the credit card industry because they're going to be

686
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 2: left with the in store ship that the whole system

687
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,040
Speaker 2: was built for. It was built for in store and

688
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 2: look at each other, share my credit card with you,

689
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 2: and then signing it on a wet piece of paper.

690
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 2: That's how that industry was built. Think about it as

691
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 2: a speedway. The problem is you now have a car

692
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 2: that does seven hundred miles an hour kay, the fastest

693
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 2: most liquid car on the planet, and it does it

694
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 2: with electricity, and it's really fast, and the course can

695
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 2: no longer handle it, like the course that the plumbing

696
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 2: was built on. It's just too old.

697
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: So we should be let's talk about that for a minute.

698
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: So you said, like bitcoin or whatever, visa does whatever,

699
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 1: thirty thousand transactions per second, like whatever that number is,

700
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter, first of all for me. Let's

701
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 1: just think about it. Right, So with technology it needs

702
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 1: to be one hundred times it needs to be a

703
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: thousand times better. Right, we don't really improvement offers. But

704
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: if I go to a merchant and I want to

705
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: run my visa or my credit card, whatever it probably takes,

706
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 1: I haven't really timed it. I don't know thirty or

707
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: forty five seconds for me to sit there and wait

708
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: for that to go through, right, roughly thirty forty five

709
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: seconds ish something like that before they you know, printed

710
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: and get me the receipt and have to sign it whatever.

711
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 1: But the merchant now not only has to pay the

712
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 1: fees whatever, two three percent, four percent depend on their

713
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: risk plus their statement fees, et cetera, et cetera, and

714
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 1: then they don't get the money for maybe seventy two

715
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: hours roughly. Right, So, what we've done technology has sped

716
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 1: up our transaction times. We now have instant transactions, but

717
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: we still don't have instant settlement, So the transaction, the

718
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 1: discrepancy between transaction settlement has grown massively wide. So as

719
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 1: a merchant, one, my customer experience is slow, there's friction. Two,

720
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 1: I have to pay exorbitant fees, and three I don't

721
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 1: get my money for a long periods of time, and

722
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 1: time is money, so the faster I can get my

723
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:49,879
Speaker 1: money the better. Now, if I wanted to accept the

724
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: transaction over lightning, which I've done many of these lightning

725
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: transactions like in El Salvador, just even at conferences and

726
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 1: events and things like that, like literally, like before I

727
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: pull my finger off the button, like the transaction is

728
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,760
Speaker 1: already there. It's not thirty seconds or forty five seconds,

729
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: it's two seconds. And on top of that, then the

730
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: merchant receives final settlement, not just settlement, but final settlement

731
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: immediately and with no fees. So it seems like it's

732
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 1: one hundred x or a thousand times improvement. To me,

733
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 1: it seems like we've been hearing about for years, like,

734
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, okay, it's coming in cr Strike told

735
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:31,240
Speaker 1: us two years ago. INCR the one in six payment

736
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 1: processes one and six merchants use them as paying processes.

737
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 1: They're going to integrate this in there. And it is

738
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: a good idea whose times come it is one hundred

739
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 1: x or a thousand times better? I mean, one, I

740
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 1: guess do you see it being that much better?

741
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 2: And two?

742
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,359
Speaker 1: If so, then what do you think is the big

743
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 1: roadblock holding it back? And three where do you think

744
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:52,359
Speaker 1: sort of like what kind of time frame or what

745
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: is it going to take to see kind of more

746
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 1: adoption there?

747
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,040
Speaker 2: I think the best way to approach it is to

748
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 2: look at history. It took Visa mass Card fifty two

749
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 2: years to get seven credit cards in everybody's pocket, hundreds

750
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 2: hundreds and hundreds of millions dollars of advertising at every

751
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 2: major sports event. American Express has its own program for

752
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 2: more wealthy people. Look adoptions hard man, okay, like scaling adoption,

753
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 2: global adoption. Visa mass Card have been massively ineffective in China,

754
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 2: massively okay. The only place chargebacks take place is in

755
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 2: the Visa mass card system. So this does not happen

756
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 2: in the East. Okay. I mean I had half a

757
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 2: billion dollar built, half a billion dollar business on a

758
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 2: problem that only exists under the mass card in Visa.

759
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 2: I think the adoption is going to be a lot

760
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 2: slower than we think because I think people misunderstand how

761
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 2: adoption occurs. And I'm quite certain that the decentralized state

762
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 2: of b Cooin's marketing department hasn't helped because you have

763
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 2: a bunch of people walking around talking, and I think

764
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 2: people think that people that are talking about bitcoin represent bitcoin.

765
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 2: But there's been a lot of misinformation out there and

766
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 2: we've hit we've missed every target we've set out there,

767
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 2: like you said, like Jack said, Hey, we're going to

768
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 2: be in payments. You might be due, but like not

769
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 2: tomorrow morning. Okay. So I think where this happens is

770
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 2: that when retailers get smart and they start offering discounts

771
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 2: to the analog world, like hey, I'll take the it's

772
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 2: one hundred dollars for this transaction, or it's ninety five

773
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 2: if you use digital and the lightning piece, like you

774
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 2: know better than me, Mark when is it going to

775
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 2: be ready for prime time? Because fifty million merchants are

776
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 2: on planet Earth and I think they're declining. That is

777
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 2: a lot of covert you have in order to get

778
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 2: real adoption. You have to make all those merchants capable

779
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 2: of being able to receive this new money currency, digit allocation,

780
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 2: audit ledger, whatever you want to call it. And I

781
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 2: don't think it needs to settle tomorrow like instantly. Okay,

782
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 2: when the settlement process for Visa MasterCard is six months,

783
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 2: So you go wipe a transaction on Sony or Apple

784
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 2: tomorrow morning, you literally have six months to say, hey.

785
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 1: That's the chargeback period, six months to charge it back

786
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 1: on your credit card.

787
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 2: With absolutely no proof. You can literally say not mine

788
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 2: six months later, and you might not win that, you

789
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,879
Speaker 2: might not get it reversed, but you're going to cause

790
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 2: pain in the ass for the merchant and for everybody

791
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:58,320
Speaker 2: in the food chain. Like when you do that, it

792
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 2: sends a ripple through the whole food that's not going

793
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 2: to occur in digital, and that's extremely valuable and efficient.

794
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 2: If we can stop the abuse that's going on, whether

795
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,399
Speaker 2: it's me you know, meant to be abuse, or whether

796
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 2: it's just an era. It's nonetheless a lot of friction.

797
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: And what is the you told me the number before,

798
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: like the financial impact of those chargebacks in the industry.

799
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's in the billions, tens of billions.

800
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,280
Speaker 2: Oh, I think we're talking about over a trillion dollars

801
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:38,280
Speaker 2: losses a year to trillion a trillion, big numbers. Oh yeah, yeah,

802
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:43,479
Speaker 2: Because well, one thing that's really interesting is just try

803
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 2: to go on Visa and master Cards public documents on

804
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 2: their quarterly reports and find out how much they make

805
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 2: just from fees, fines and chargebacks. It's staggering to me

806
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 2: that I have a half a billion dollar business in

807
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 2: the chargeback business. Yeah you can. Now I'm private, but

808
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 2: we were private at the time. Still are. I can't

809
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 2: see any of that data on Visa Maascar. Hmm. That's interesting.

810
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 2: I think they're making a billion dollars in net income

811
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 2: every year for sure, both of them. From calling things fraud,

812
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 2: they're not fraud. And if they are fraud, how the

813
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 2: hell can you have nearly seven hundred million fraudulent events

814
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 2: in the United States and European business seven hundred that

815
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:34,399
Speaker 2: is what seven hundred million, that's about two thousand a day.

816
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 2: I think maybe twenty thousand a day. How can you

817
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 2: have that much fraud? And Visa Massacord traded a premium

818
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:48,280
Speaker 2: that is five x Googles excuse me, five x Exi

819
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 2: mobiles and two and a half or two and a

820
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 2: half times the valuation of Google. It seems odd to me. Okay, doopoly,

821
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:00,320
Speaker 2: they have seventy two percent of the entire plastic market.

822
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:03,760
Speaker 2: And I think you're talking about six hundred and fifty

823
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 2: six million unit events. You're talking about one hundred and

824
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 2: six dollars price, you're talking about another three hundred dollars.

825
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 2: Every time a merchant gets a one hundred dollars charge back,

826
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:18,280
Speaker 2: it has cost h three hundred and fifty dollars. Okay,

827
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 2: how does he ever come out of that? And refunds

828
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 2: are going up, so the system's broken. Visa's big pitch

829
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 2: was increase refunds, make refunds easy, pasy. Guess what refunds did.

830
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 2: Refunds went from one and a half to two percent

831
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 2: to eight and charge chargebacks went straight up. Did absolutely nothing.

832
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 2: You have to educate the consumer. You have to educate

833
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 2: the consumer. And the trick back to your question, the

834
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:51,760
Speaker 2: trick for Visa MasterCard, which stops most foreign payment companies

835
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:55,800
Speaker 2: coming in the United States. They used the chargeback mechanism

836
00:47:55,800 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy two to create adoption. That was the

837
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 2: only way they could get you and your wife into

838
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 2: the store and go, hey, let's move off of cash

839
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 2: and checks. We want you to hold this a little plastic.

840
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,759
Speaker 2: That was what adoption. That's what they used adoption for.

841
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 2: You have seven cards in your pocket, now real or

842
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 2: virtual dude, adoptions curd take the chargeback mechanism away and

843
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 2: make the consumer responsible for what he does when he

844
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 2: clicks a button. Okay, we you and I do a

845
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 2: deal online. It's a legally binding contract, right, Like, didn't

846
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 2: we sign a legally binding contract. I did it electronically.

847
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 2: I said yes, I read the terms and conditions supposedly,

848
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 2: and then we have another third party decide yeah, that

849
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 2: legal contract's no longer about it? Like that's crazy, right.

850
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 1: An early business I started was I was doing e commerce.

851
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: I was selling motocross stuff online and in the automotive space,

852
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: and specifically on like hard parts, on hard parts in

853
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 1: in the motorcycle space. The markups are very poor. You

854
00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,399
Speaker 1: have like a thirty percent markup, you know, if you're lucky.

855
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 1: And we would get chargebacks all the time where we

856
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:06,800
Speaker 1: would chip something to the address that it was and

857
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: they would say, oh, well, my husband used my card

858
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:11,439
Speaker 1: and that wasn't my car, or my kid used my card.

859
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 1: I didn't authorize that, and they would charge it back.

860
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 1: We didn't even get the product back, and the card

861
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 1: company would automatically honor their charge back. Now, we only

862
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 1: had a thirty percent margin on that part. So I

863
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:24,959
Speaker 1: sell one hundred dollar a part cost me seventy, right,

864
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 1: I was hoping to make thirty. I lost seventy. Now

865
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 1: I got to sell four more parts just to get

866
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 1: back to profit off of that one loss. I mean,

867
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 1: it was catastrophic for us, it was. And that was

868
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: that was early on. Before today, I've seen some numbers specifically,

869
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 1: it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. But now the

870
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 1: amount of returns that are going back to these stores

871
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 1: is starting to break them. You know, they have to

872
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:50,839
Speaker 1: repackage or they can't resell it for full price or whatever.

873
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 1: But that was a long time ago, and it was

874
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,360
Speaker 1: it broke us because again our margins were so small,

875
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 1: and so you know, I can certainly see from ammerchan side,

876
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 1: how bad that is? I should say, maybe from a

877
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 1: vendor side, from a from a merchant side. I mean,

878
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,359
Speaker 1: if I could obviously you have reduce my charge backs,

879
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 1: get my money faster. Seems like it seems like a

880
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 1: benefit to me. I guess to the point you're making

881
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 1: is consumers jumped on the credit card bandwagon because of

882
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 1: the protection they got from the chargebacks, but it works

883
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: against the merchant. So now the adoption is probably gonna

884
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 1: have to come from the merchant side. The merchant's now

885
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 1: going to say, hey, look we want you to use this,

886
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 1: and maybe there has to be some sort of incentive.

887
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:30,399
Speaker 1: I guess to your point, some sort of a discount. Hey,

888
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 1: you don't get to charge it back, but this is

889
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 1: what I require, sort of like hey you gotta pay

890
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 1: me cash kind of thing. And then there and then

891
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 1: and just you know, that's the.

892
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 2: Way real markets work. The real markets work where you know,

893
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 2: in the old business and the energy business, I mean,

894
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 2: we have is agreements. Man, you want to trade crud,

895
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 2: all we have one agreement? Okay, Like Bitcoin's going to

896
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 2: do a lot of things that no one's even talking about.

897
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 2: Why do we have fifty million merchants on the planet.

898
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 2: This is a Visa number, and we pretty much have

899
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 2: about forty nine million different terms and conditions on all

900
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 2: these websites. Why can't we have just one standard T

901
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 2: and C terms and conditions. The FTC goes out of

902
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 2: its way to talk about clear and concise and then

903
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 2: they do nothing on clear and concise when it comes

904
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 2: to terms and conditions. This is how much time you

905
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 2: have to refund. This is what a chargeback is defined.

906
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:28,399
Speaker 2: Ass Visa could literally spend I've pitched them this. Hey,

907
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 2: we raise a billion dollars okay by charging point zero

908
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:35,799
Speaker 2: zero zero zero one on every transaction for one year.

909
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 2: Retailers pay for it, and we then do Visa maasacar,

910
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 2: do a monster education program and explain to people these

911
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 2: are not refunds. These are harming retailers. Okay, if he

912
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 2: gets one hundred chargeback, he's going to probably be put

913
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 2: out of business or his fees and fines to Visa

914
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 2: MasterCard are going to go up so much. And this

915
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 2: is what they do. Hey, we'll come in and consult

916
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:00,439
Speaker 2: for you and get you out of the program for

917
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand dollars, or you can buy our chargeback

918
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 2: system and buy all these tools and it's one hundred

919
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 2: thousand dollars and there's no guarantees to any of this help.

920
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,959
Speaker 2: So like we're just dealing with a duopoly. Okay, that's

921
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 2: the problem. Adoption has occurred. I went to both VISA

922
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:23,240
Speaker 2: matter SCAT and said, why do I pay the same

923
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 2: amount for some batteries that my secretary pays for? I

924
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 2: should pay less? And they were like, oh, horrend this.

925
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 2: You're suggesting that your credit you should be able to

926
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:36,880
Speaker 2: buy retail products cheaper than other people because your credit's

927
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 2: better and your performance is a refunder or chargeback of

928
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 2: vendor is better. I'm like, absolutely absolutely. They said that

929
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 2: will never fly. We will people will be riding in

930
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 2: the streets if we give you a discount versus your assistant. Okay,

931
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 2: then Bitco do it and that is the answer. Okay,

932
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,279
Speaker 2: like the merchants, we need to do a better job

933
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 2: with the merchants to show them what the real cost

934
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 2: is of using plastic. It is at least ten percent

935
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 2: of the total retail value. And you have no guarantee

936
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 2: that your merchant processor is even going to support you. Okay,

937
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 2: if they don't like what you're selling tomorrow morning. They

938
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 2: can literally just turn you off. So we need to

939
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 2: do a better job. And I think this is gonna

940
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 2: come because I'm happy to buy stuff from you. I

941
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 2: don't refund. I'd love the discount it pay me. Let

942
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 2: me have a discount for being a superior consumer that

943
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 2: isn't raunchy. I don't have viruses, I don't send shit

944
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 2: back to I don't create a whole problem in EU ecosphere.

945
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 2: And I would love to see Visa master Card go

946
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,239
Speaker 2: after these retailers and say, hey, you can't do that.

947
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,760
Speaker 2: Watch they're going to try and say you cannot offer

948
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 2: a discount for bitcoin. They've done it on cash. Okay,

949
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 2: Hey you can't offer discounts for cash. Okay. This is

950
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:58,359
Speaker 2: then okay, now we understand what the real rules are.

951
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 2: They're trying to protect their game, and then we can

952
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 2: attack them for violating the rights of a human to

953
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 2: be able to engage in any type of commerce. And

954
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 2: if these are masacorts, start telling retailers you can't take this, well,

955
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 2: that'll be a very interesting case in the Supreme Court

956
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:21,399
Speaker 2: in my opinion. So did I go off. Let's still

957
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 2: go off course on your question, But like this is

958
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 2: going to be a real battle in payments. Man.

959
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then the last I want to talk just

960
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 1: one more thing. We'll talk about the battle over payments,

961
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 1: and then I want to talk about some of the

962
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 1: timeframe you continue. You said a couple of times that

963
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 1: you think adoption takes a lot longer than most people think.

964
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 1: So we'll get to that. But just back to the

965
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 1: battle over payments. The other big piece in battle over payments,

966
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:45,400
Speaker 1: in my opinion, seems to be the government and just

967
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:48,359
Speaker 1: regulations or laws, if you will, right. And so you

968
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier taking like this big Vinyl record and now

969
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: you have, you know, a million records or songs in

970
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 1: your phone. And actually it was different. We used to

971
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 1: have If I wanted to listen to Beethoven, I had

972
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:00,880
Speaker 1: to have like one hundred person orchestra. Uh to get

973
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:02,919
Speaker 1: a one hundred percent works to Vinyl was a big deal.

974
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 1: And then Vinyl to CD and then eventually now we

975
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 1: have a thousand on our phone. And so we saw

976
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 1: like music, movies and books got digitized pretty quickly, and

977
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 1: and and that was that was a hard fought battle.

978
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 1: I mean, the music labels and music industry and movie industry,

979
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:19,839
Speaker 1: they're big and they fought hard, but yet they were

980
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:21,640
Speaker 1: still put out right, because when the idea is a

981
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 1: thousand times better, the problem is now is we have

982
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:28,440
Speaker 1: the government, and the government doesn't move and not not

983
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:31,479
Speaker 1: not easy. And so the big problem that I see

984
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 1: with the payment piece is this tax complication. Now going

985
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 1: backshot out for your company Node forty, you're trying to

986
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 1: make this tax compliance piece easier, but like, no way

987
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 1: am I going to try to figure out what my

988
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 1: tax is owed on a cup of coffee? Like I

989
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 1: ain't gonna happen. Like what's the point of trying to

990
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 1: figure out that for a cup of coffee? Even if

991
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:53,560
Speaker 1: the soft even if your software works really good, I

992
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 1: still don't care, right, And I think that is probably

993
00:55:57,600 --> 00:55:59,399
Speaker 1: something really big and it's wait, now we have game

994
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,760
Speaker 1: theory we got I'm sorry El Salvador and potentially other countries,

995
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 1: but do you think that's like one massive obstacle sitting

996
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:11,480
Speaker 1: in the way for actually going to payments.

997
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 2: You're assuming that visa Massacard aren't state owned companies pretending

998
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 2: to be public. But I have no history in my

999
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 2: entire capability of reading history books where you had organizations

1000
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:36,319
Speaker 2: turning off entire countries access to credit cards, yet they're

1001
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 2: public and their stock price goes up. It's a very

1002
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:43,279
Speaker 2: odd thing to me, Okay. I think there's so much

1003
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:51,760
Speaker 2: inner wiggling between Visa, MasterCard and the US government. It's frightening.

1004
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 2: It's the only way that you can show me why

1005
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:01,399
Speaker 2: Visa Massacard, forty year old come companies have a net

1006
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:05,840
Speaker 2: operating margin so significantly over the Googles of the world,

1007
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:13,200
Speaker 2: or the or any company, and because including Exonobile. Okay, like,

1008
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 2: I do not think that if the credit card industry

1009
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:19,479
Speaker 2: failed tomorrow morning that anyone's going to lose any sleep

1010
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 2: over it. The system's not going to stop. We'll go

1011
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 2: to checks in cash. If energy stop flowing tomorrow morning,

1012
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 2: we would be freaking out. People would be dying, okay,

1013
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 2: in hospitals. So why does Exon traded a ten percent

1014
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 2: net operating margin and everyone thinks they're evil. Yet Visa

1015
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 2: operates at a fifty one percent net operating margin, zero

1016
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:49,840
Speaker 2: competition forum and they own seventy two percent them in

1017
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 2: MasterCard owned seventy two percent of the entire plastic market.

1018
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 2: That I think you are dealing with already a government.

1019
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 2: They're just pretending to be public So that's the world

1020
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 2: we live in. This technology is so cool that it's

1021
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 2: going to put another I mean, American Express has not

1022
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 2: been able to tap this thing. Nobody did. And financial

1023
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 2: tried to come to Europe, uh with with Ali Baba,

1024
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 2: and they did not could not penetrate this market. You're

1025
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 2: not going to get a piece of plastic in a

1026
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 2: human consumer's hand without that consumer protection. Okay, that no

1027
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 2: chance without the chargeback mechanism. So it's a way to

1028
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 2: block people from coming in the space. The cool thing

1029
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 2: is it's such a large number that and it keeps

1030
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 2: going up. There is no stopping these friction problems. The

1031
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:55,640
Speaker 2: only way you stop me is you start over. Okay, Like,

1032
00:58:55,720 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 2: you can't fix this. There are seven vendors in every transaction. Man,

1033
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:04,400
Speaker 2: there's a decline rate. Have you ever had a decline

1034
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:09,480
Speaker 2: on a bitcoin transaction? No? Ever happened thirteen percent in

1035
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:13,640
Speaker 2: the United States, dude, thirteen percent decline rate. After all

1036
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 2: these refunds and after all the charge back, the entire

1037
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:19,400
Speaker 2: system is broken. We don't really need to even compete

1038
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 2: with them, Okay. What we need to do is make

1039
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 2: sure we understand how long adoption takes and that we're

1040
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 2: not being stupid, like you're not going to get adoption

1041
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:35,840
Speaker 2: from the consumer in America on scale with bitcoin. You

1042
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 2: might do it with a CBDC initially okay and get

1043
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:44,439
Speaker 2: them educated, But you got to decide is it first

1044
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 2: an investment vehicle or is it a spending tool? To

1045
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 2: your point, you don't want to spend bitcoin for coffee,

1046
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:52,920
Speaker 2: and you probably shouldn't right now. It's probably not ready

1047
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:55,840
Speaker 2: for that level of its evolution. What if that needs

1048
00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:59,920
Speaker 2: to be in five years? What if yeah, I BELI

1049
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 2: the case that bitcoin needs to be at about half

1050
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:06,200
Speaker 2: a million to a million dollars each, so that we

1051
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 2: stopped talking about bitcoin and we start talking about ohi's okay,

1052
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:14,640
Speaker 2: And then by that time you could differentiate and go, hey,

1053
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 2: look these like this is going to be a regulatory

1054
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 2: problem once they validated it is a commodity. Why are

1055
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 2: you spending it, you know, on orange hues? Right? Because

1056
01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 2: it's you're gonna pay capital gains on that. How we

1057
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:35,640
Speaker 2: get that fix? What we don't want them to do

1058
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 2: is go, okay, now it's a security. No, it's a commodity.

1059
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 2: So I don't know the answer. I know that anyone

1060
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 2: spending money on coffee you know, literally, you have a

1061
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:52,080
Speaker 2: you're exposed to capital gains. I don't think anyone's going

1062
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:58,240
Speaker 2: to come after you for it, but but it's clearly

1063
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:00,520
Speaker 2: something that needs to get addressed. Okay, because I don't

1064
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:02,720
Speaker 2: spend my dollar. Somebody said the other night, Hey, every

1065
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:05,360
Speaker 2: time you spend your dollars your tax. No that's not true.

1066
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:08,800
Speaker 2: I don't get a capital gains every time I spend

1067
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:12,360
Speaker 2: a dollar a unit of a paper. So I don't

1068
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:14,480
Speaker 2: know the answer. On the retail, I would say that

1069
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:16,920
Speaker 2: it doesn't make sense today to spend any of that

1070
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 2: on coffee. And maybe if you're an El Salvador and

1071
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:27,520
Speaker 2: it's prominent, well it's now since Salvador, it's El Salvador,

1072
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 2: nobody's going to see it. So I don't know the

1073
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:35,840
Speaker 2: specific answer to how we get there when the scaling happens,

1074
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:39,640
Speaker 2: but we will underestimate how long it takes, and then

1075
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:43,960
Speaker 2: we will overestimate how long it takes, you know, like

1076
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 2: it just happens all at one time. There are a

1077
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:50,919
Speaker 2: lot of people coming in this space, though, and the

1078
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:55,280
Speaker 2: plumbing on plastic is so bad Mark that it's just

1079
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:57,320
Speaker 2: going to take off the tops. And that's to me.

1080
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:01,600
Speaker 2: If you look at it from gaming, gambling, adult, whatever

1081
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:05,240
Speaker 2: you think about those industries, their micro transactions and plastic

1082
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:09,960
Speaker 2: won't work with micro okay, less than a dollar. Plastic

1083
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:13,120
Speaker 2: really is problematic. You and I, you know, you and

1084
01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 2: I are going to have robots. In a year and

1085
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:17,920
Speaker 2: a half, we will have robots. I think my robot

1086
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:21,200
Speaker 2: will send you money and it's going to send micro transactions,

1087
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:24,440
Speaker 2: and we're going to be at least economy and plastic

1088
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 2: is not set up for lease. Look what's happening with

1089
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:30,160
Speaker 2: your subscriptions. One of the reasons they have so much

1090
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:35,680
Speaker 2: friction and chargebacks is the subscription model. Well, the industry

1091
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:41,760
Speaker 2: wasn't built for subscription. So anyway, that's that's my answer.

1092
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:44,360
Speaker 2: And you look, Visa Massacart are going to invest heavily

1093
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 2: in this space. Man, as long as the regulator.

1094
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:50,280
Speaker 1: The problem is, I think to your point, the plumbing,

1095
01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:53,320
Speaker 1: the plumbing is all messed up. And you know this

1096
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 1: is sort of what you know Strike hits that they

1097
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:58,960
Speaker 1: wanted to do. Now we see Ice, which is the

1098
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:01,240
Speaker 1: parent company of the NYS, has a company called Backed,

1099
01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:04,120
Speaker 1: and what Backed is doing is something similar where they

1100
01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:07,000
Speaker 1: want to use the bitcoin rails to transact the payment,

1101
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:09,959
Speaker 1: but you don't actually work with bitcoin, So I send

1102
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:13,520
Speaker 1: you paysos you receive in the end, that transaction moved

1103
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:16,440
Speaker 1: over a bitcoin rail. Neither of us know that, and

1104
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. So they're doing that. I think they

1105
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:21,479
Speaker 1: rolled that out a couple months two months ago maybe,

1106
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 1: and then they're trying to create what do they call them,

1107
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:28,520
Speaker 1: l u ur ls or whatever where basically we could

1108
01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:30,920
Speaker 1: have like Gary at Lightning dot com, right, and I

1109
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:33,840
Speaker 1: could just send you transactions that way. But getting to

1110
01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 1: the point where you said, no one's talking about bitcoin,

1111
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:39,240
Speaker 1: they're talking about SATs, but where you could use this

1112
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:41,040
Speaker 1: or you could benefit from the technology without having to

1113
01:03:41,040 --> 01:03:43,040
Speaker 1: know it's about bitcoin. Right when you turn on your

1114
01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:44,600
Speaker 1: light switch and you don't know how that light came on,

1115
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 1: You just turn the light switch on. Right, I FaceTime

1116
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:49,400
Speaker 1: my wife and I don't know how the Hecker face

1117
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:51,280
Speaker 1: shows up on screen. Doesn't matter. I just use it.

1118
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:55,320
Speaker 1: And so you know that is here. It's starting to

1119
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 1: take hold right now. You know, back is enabling banks

1120
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:01,760
Speaker 1: to send dollar and receive en and this happens to

1121
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 1: go over bitcoin. They don't need to know that, and

1122
01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:06,800
Speaker 1: so it's happening, and I would agree we'll kind of

1123
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 1: wrap this up. I agree. I've talked about sort of

1124
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 1: an adoption over like a forty year period, and uh,

1125
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:16,160
Speaker 1: we're about a quarter of the way through that. If

1126
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:18,560
Speaker 1: we look at at VENMO, I was looking up earlier

1127
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:22,520
Speaker 1: when you were talking and we saw that I had

1128
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:26,160
Speaker 1: it in front of me here. It took Uh, it

1129
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:32,960
Speaker 1: took from twenty fifteen until twenty twenty two to get

1130
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:36,960
Speaker 1: to eighty million users. And so you know, things just

1131
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:39,680
Speaker 1: take time. Most of us just to just expect, expect

1132
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 1: way too much too soon. So I think, give it,

1133
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:43,760
Speaker 1: give it a couple of decades. It's certainly coming on.

1134
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:47,080
Speaker 1: And yeah, no, no stopping a good idea.

1135
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:49,720
Speaker 2: No, when you when you when you're when you're disrupting

1136
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 2: an environment, you really wanted to come faster, Right, You'll

1137
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:58,640
Speaker 2: always I think you're everyone's I'm always optimistic that it's

1138
01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:01,720
Speaker 2: going to happen faster, but it always takes longer than

1139
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:05,880
Speaker 2: I think. But when it happens, like I then underestimate

1140
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:09,360
Speaker 2: the impact. Every time I've done this now four times,

1141
01:05:09,400 --> 01:05:14,280
Speaker 2: I'm quite certain that I am overestimating how long, underestimating

1142
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:16,600
Speaker 2: how long this is going to take, and then I'm

1143
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:20,800
Speaker 2: grossly underestimating the impact, which is so exciting for me.

1144
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:24,840
Speaker 2: Having this background and energy and payments and seeing this

1145
01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:29,040
Speaker 2: happen again. It really allows me to put on a monster,

1146
01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:34,280
Speaker 2: monster position with a huge amount of conviction. And it's

1147
01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:38,640
Speaker 2: literally like, hey, am I off bout eighteen months. It's

1148
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:42,000
Speaker 2: only about that really, So to me, it's an awesome

1149
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:44,880
Speaker 2: just starting back on the venture piece. It's an awesome

1150
01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:49,680
Speaker 2: investment thesis that quite frankly, all the operating businesses, Like

1151
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:52,000
Speaker 2: I've looked at a few mining deals and every time

1152
01:05:52,040 --> 01:05:54,720
Speaker 2: I'm like, damn, dude, I just like buying bitcoin at

1153
01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:58,080
Speaker 2: forty two thousand. It's a less headache. Yeah, I don't

1154
01:05:58,080 --> 01:06:02,000
Speaker 2: think I can do that mining human area issues. I

1155
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:04,000
Speaker 2: don't have a CEO to deal with. I don't have

1156
01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:07,280
Speaker 2: his wife to deal with. You know, there's issues in

1157
01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:11,200
Speaker 2: these operating businesses. Long term, I think you want some

1158
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:15,080
Speaker 2: big operating businesses in this ecosphere because it's gonna also

1159
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:18,200
Speaker 2: bring you a lot of intel as to what's going on.

1160
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:22,920
Speaker 2: So that's my long interest is in owning companies in

1161
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:26,280
Speaker 2: the industry. So that's just the way I look at it.

1162
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:28,160
Speaker 2: The next three years, man, this is a no brainer.

1163
01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:33,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Gary, Well, we went along a lot

1164
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:36,800
Speaker 1: of good information there. I appreciate it. It's fun, fun conversation.

1165
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:39,040
Speaker 1: Look forward to seeing you again in person, in real life.

1166
01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 1: As we say here on the interwebs, what do you wanna?

1167
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:44,920
Speaker 1: What do you want people to check out? Where should

1168
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:46,560
Speaker 1: they go to find more about what you're working on?

1169
01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:50,360
Speaker 2: You know I do. I'm starting to do a lot

1170
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:53,800
Speaker 2: of stuff on YouTube and Twitter, bringing on people like you.

1171
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:58,960
Speaker 2: I think I would like to help educate people and

1172
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 2: get them out of the noise and try to bridge

1173
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:05,439
Speaker 2: the gap between the old world and the new world.

1174
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:08,200
Speaker 2: I think I'm the right age for it. I communicate

1175
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:12,440
Speaker 2: pretty simply to your point. You don't know how Facebook works,

1176
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:15,480
Speaker 2: and you use it every day. You don't think are

1177
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:18,200
Speaker 2: they stealing all my data? Yeah they are. They're probably

1178
01:07:18,200 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 2: stealing all your data, but you're not. I drive down

1179
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:22,040
Speaker 2: the road in one hundred miles an hour in a

1180
01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:24,280
Speaker 2: range Rover. I have no clue how that car works,

1181
01:07:24,920 --> 01:07:28,040
Speaker 2: So I don't need to understand everything. I need to

1182
01:07:28,120 --> 01:07:30,520
Speaker 2: understand who am I dealing with on a human level

1183
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:33,760
Speaker 2: and who are the people against me on a human level?

1184
01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:36,640
Speaker 2: And then I get to make investments and build my

1185
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:40,800
Speaker 2: life around the risk I see out there, and this

1186
01:07:40,880 --> 01:07:44,240
Speaker 2: is a cool, cool, cool opportunity. And you don't have

1187
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:46,640
Speaker 2: to be rich to buy bitcoin. You could not buy

1188
01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:50,320
Speaker 2: any bitcoin. You could build a career in this industry.

1189
01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:53,720
Speaker 2: That's the cool thing. With out a resume, man, just

1190
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:56,360
Speaker 2: come into the industry, start learning. I bet how many

1191
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 2: people could you hire tomorrow.

1192
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:03,280
Speaker 1: If they had the right skills. Certainly we're hiring.

1193
01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:06,800
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, see, and and you're having a hard time

1194
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:10,320
Speaker 2: finding people that show up on time, work long study,

1195
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:14,200
Speaker 2: like my my secretary. First thing she's got to do. Man, Hey, dude,

1196
01:08:14,240 --> 01:08:17,439
Speaker 2: you need to go learn some robotics, chat GBT, read

1197
01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:21,960
Speaker 2: the Bitcoin standard. First four months is just you know, dive,

1198
01:08:22,840 --> 01:08:26,000
Speaker 2: go deep, figure out what you don't know. So I

1199
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:29,160
Speaker 2: just think you're gonna you're gonna employ millions of people

1200
01:08:29,320 --> 01:08:31,439
Speaker 2: in this industry. And that to me is a great

1201
01:08:31,479 --> 01:08:32,920
Speaker 2: story that's not told very much.

1202
01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:35,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, good, all right, Well that we're going to sign

1203
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:36,040
Speaker 1: it on.

1204
01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:38,240
Speaker 2: Thank you. I've enjoyed.

1205
01:08:38,680 --> 01:08:39,240
Speaker 1: Thanks Gary,