WEBVTT - A Joyful Heart 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.640 Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. Please 0:00:04.680 --> 0:00:08.560 be advised this episode contains explicit descriptions of sexual abuse. 0:00:08.840 --> 0:00:13.920 Listener discretion is advised. I've been thinking a lot lately 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:17.079 about the people who save us, who shine a light 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:20.680 and help us see away forward, even when our lives 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:26.120 seem hopeless and bleak. These people aren't necessarily our parents 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:29.600 or grand parents, or aunts or uncles. They don't have 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:32.080 to be related to us by blood or live under 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:37.320 the same roof. When we encounter them as children, as teenagers, 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:41.280 or even later in life, we don't always recognize them 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:44.560 as our guardian angels. But this is what they are. 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:50.280 My guest today is Debbie Millman, and this episode is 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:54.160 about the possibility of extraordinary resilience in the face of 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:58.280 violence and trauma, and the redemptive power of love and 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:02.640 strength found in the unlikeliest of places. I mean, I 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:06.280 think that the best advice that I could give anybody 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:10.720 who's had this experience or is having this experience, is 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:16.320 seek help. Seek help. There was once, and I don't 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:18.680 know if it still exists. It probably does in some 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:20.720 parts of the world, in some parts of the United States, 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:25.400 or even seeking help is a statement of weakness, and 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:28.360 that's not the case. It's the biggest possible strength that 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:31.759 a person could have is to say I need help. 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:39.640 I need help. Debbie is a force of nature, designer, author, artist, illustrator, 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:44.000 branding genius and co founder of the world's first master's 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:47.360 program in branding at the School of Visual Arts in 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:50.640 New York City. She's also one of the most luminous, 0:01:50.680 --> 0:02:00.960 soulful people I know. It's an honor to share her story. 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:07.000 I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family secrets, secrets that 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:10.520 are kept from us, secrets we keep from others, and 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:17.320 secrets we keep from ourselves. So I would like to 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:22.400 begin by asking you about the landscape of your childhood, 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:26.000 your family, the town you grew up in. Um, can 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:28.080 you just talk to me a little bit about little 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:34.120 Debbie Sure? Um? Well, I was. I'm a native New Yorker. 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:39.600 I was born in Brooklyn in one and we lived there, 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:42.760 my mother and my father and me for two years, 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:49.040 and then they moved me to Howard Beach, Queens and 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:52.720 I lived in Howard Beach until the middle of third grade. 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:55.600 And by that time they had had another child, my 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:57.760 younger brother who's two and a half years younger than 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:01.560 I am, and in the inutile of third grade, my 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:05.160 dad bought his own pharmacy. He was a pharmacist and 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:08.880 had worked in Manhattan at a pharmacy that no longer exists, 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:12.720 a mom and pop type shop called City Drug and 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:17.359 that was across the street from the Carnegie Delhi and 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:20.560 I remember him telling me as I was growing up 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:24.480 that Bernadette Peters used to come into the pharmacy quite 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:28.040 a lot, and he thought she was rather spectacular um. 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:30.480 And so we moved to Staten Island in the middle 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:34.320 of third grade and lived there until the end of 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:37.880 fifth grade. In that time, my parents ended up getting 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:40.920 divorced and at the end of fifth grade. By the 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:44.560 end of fifth grade, my mom was getting remarried and 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:49.920 moved my brother, me, and her new husband, who had 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:53.800 two daughters of his own, to Long Island. And I 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:57.440 lived on Long Island from sixth grade until the end 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:01.160 of twelfth grade, and then immediate high tailed it to 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:05.360 college and never went back to Long Island to live. 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:10.720 Debbie falls out of touch with her father for several 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:14.600 years after her parents divorce, and only reconnects with him 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:18.360 when she's twelve or thirteen years old. Her most positive 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:22.360 memories of that time are very connected to one particular person, 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:26.000 a woman named Betty who was in a long relationship 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:31.040 with Debbie's dad. Betty lived on two Street in Chelsea, 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:36.040 and she was, um, I guess what you'd call a 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:39.880 career girl. You know, she was Uh. She lived by 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:42.120 herself in a studio apartment on the third floor of 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:45.080 a brownstone. She was a typist, that's what she did. 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:52.480 But she was fiercely independent and really celebrated and relished 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:56.800 in her independence. I thought she was very beautiful. She 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:01.920 did everything effortlessly well, and she was kind to me, 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:06.920 and she was one of the first consistently kind people 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:11.360 to me in my life. And I think it was 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:16.279 watching the way she moved through the world, her independence, 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:22.599 her strong mindedness about what was just, her efforts to 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:29.920 protect me when my father had um anger episodes. Those 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:35.839 were things that I think embedded her deeply in me. 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:41.760 And as an impressionable young girl, she was the first 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:45.919 role model I think I actually encountered somebody that I 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:49.560 could see living their own life on their own terms, 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:57.000 supporting themselves. And I think that's really what ultimately influenced me. 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:59.520 I wanted to dress like her, I wanted to live 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:05.640 like her, Um, I wanted to be her. Kindness was 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:07.680 in short order in the homes Debbie grew up in. 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:11.400 She has described her father as both brilliant and turbulent. 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:19.520 My dad was very charismatic, and he had a wonderful 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:25.719 oratory talent that he used quite well, so he was 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:29.920 able to express himself with a lot of conviction. He 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:37.279 was very tall, he was very handsome, he was fast 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:42.360 on his feet, very witty. But he also had, and 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:46.120 it was quite hidden most of the time, UM, a 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:51.560 really intense temper. And that temper could be triggered by 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:55.880 just about anything. You never really knew when it was 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:59.600 going to emerge and what would trigger it. And so 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:03.880 I don't really ever remember a time in my life 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:07.760 when I wasn't afraid of him, because I was terrified 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:11.800 that something that I did and inadvertently would cause him 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:16.520 to blow up. And so I was always very scared 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:20.120 around him, inasmuch as I was also and this is 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:23.440 sort of where it gets complicated, really trying to get 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:26.360 his approval and really wanting very badly for him to 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:29.240 be proud of me and to love me. And there 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:31.720 was no question in my mind that he did love me. 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:35.480 It was just really really hard for him to express well. 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:39.000 And what you're describing to that hair trigger living in 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:41.320 a situation where you don't know what's going to set 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:46.240 it off exactly exactly, and so good times could immediately 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:50.560 become horrific because somebody would say something or do something, 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:54.520 or he would get angry about something, and then suddenly 0:07:54.720 --> 0:08:00.200 everybody was on on watch. Debbie's father doesn't but come 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:04.040 physically violent until she's a bit older. The first episode 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:12.440 she remembers involves Betty Thanksgiving and a turkey we were eating, 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:15.840 and I remember there was a football game on and 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:20.480 he was watching it, and he ended up getting very 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:23.320 angry with all of us for not being appreciative enough 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:27.840 and happy enough. He always wanted us to be happy. 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:34.440 He threw the turkey across the room and started to 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:40.560 chase Betty around the room, and then she tried to 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:44.600 get away from him by running outside, and then he 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:49.160 ran outside after her and picked up a shovel and 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:53.600 was chasing her through the woods um and then came 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:58.240 back alone. We were not allowed to go outside to 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.360 help her. He didn't hit her, but he locked her 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:04.680 out and kept her locked out all night, and she 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:07.720 ended up sleeping in the unlocked car thankfully that was 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:14.360 open and um, that memory is just seared into my 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:20.000 brain and I'll never forget that. While her dad is 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:23.120 chasing Betty around the yard, Debbie and her brother hide 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:27.120 in the bathroom and locked the door. Eventually things calmed 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:30.880 down and her father becomes contrite. Tries to pave over 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:35.080 his behavior with extravagant gifts and gestures, but the pockets 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:40.000 of peace never last very long. That was the first 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:44.440 time I witnessed any violence. But then later he'd be 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:49.160 throwing things. I don't know that he ever ever hit 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.080 any of the women he was with with his hands. 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.240 That I'd never witnessed, but I did witness a lot 0:09:55.280 --> 0:10:00.559 of throwing things, rocks, furniture, lamps, um, some which would 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:04.480 would hit hit us or hit her. And that was 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:11.360 that was really hard, really hard, yeah, really really hard 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:14.160 to have a parent with such a terrible and unpredictable temper. 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:18.760 But the incident with the turkey and Betty, that's nothing 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:25.319 compared with what comes next. We're going to pause for 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:34.520 a moment. Debbie's newly divorced mom attends a meeting of 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:39.520 parents without partners. Imagine match dot Com for divorced or 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:44.120 widowed people, except in real life unfolding chairs, probably in 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:48.200 a church basement, And there Debbie's mom meets and marries 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:54.240 her next Mr. Wrong. She married a man who, um 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:58.199 was brutal. You know, whatever anger issues my dad had 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:02.840 at that point, you know, we had never ever beaten 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:06.640 me or my mother. Um he had. He had a temper, 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:09.240 and I was terrified of that temper as far back 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:12.400 as I can remember. But I had never witnessed anybody 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:18.120 actually hitting anybody until he came into our lives and 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:22.840 he hit all of us. He hit my brother repeatedly. 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:25.520 He beat me. He beat his own daughter once so 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:30.480 badly she couldn't go to school. He would beat me 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:32.679 and my brother every time we did come back from 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:37.360 my dad from a weekend with my dad. At that point, 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:40.760 I have to say it was my choice to say 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:42.800 I'm not going to see him anymore because I couldn't 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:46.080 bear being beaten. Now, my dad didn't protest it. He 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:49.920 didn't go to court to try to continue to see us. 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.040 The he did stop paying his child supports and my 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:56.360 mom had to take him to court. Okay, I just 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:59.559 want to be sure you're hearing what's happening here. Debbie 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:03.839 is put in the insanely impossible, heartbreaking position of either 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.800 a seeing her dad and being beaten for that offense 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:13.120 by her stepdad, or be not seeing her dad. I 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:16.800 remember going with her to court, and I remember getting 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:19.160 all dressed up that morning because I wanted to look 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:21.800 pretty so that maybe when he saw me he tried 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:28.640 to rescue me. But he didn't show up. I was 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:30.560 wearing a dress that my mother had made me. She 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:33.880 was a seamstress and made all my clothes pretty much, um. 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:37.720 And it was a orange and pink and white, tiny 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:41.520 little flowers pattern all over the fabric, and it had 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:46.400 put sleeves, and I was wearing a pair of white boots. 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:51.040 And I thought I looked really, really good, um, and 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:53.800 thought he would think that too, but he never showed up. 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:03.000 Debbie has another memory of being on the front porch 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:05.719 of her house. Her father has come by to give 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:09.080 her a birthday present, and her mother and stepfather won't 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:11.320 let him in the house, so Debbie has to go 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:15.520 out on the porch, and Debbie's father wants her to 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:19.000 tell him that she wants the present, that she really 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:22.960 really wants the present, and she does. She really wants it. 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:26.240 She feels guilty for wanting it because her mother and 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.040 stepfather have told her that her dad is a bad guy, 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:32.640 but finally she admits that she wants it. And at 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:35.800 that point, I guess my mother and stepfather were so 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:39.240 worried about what he would say or do um that 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:41.960 he turned on the intercom in an effort to listen 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:44.800 to what was happening. But they pressed their wrong button 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:50.800 and music went on the microphone. And so I stood 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:52.559 there and I think we were all It was all 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:58.480 this sense of humiliation and shame and fear and longing. 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:05.800 I want to talk about shame. It's almost redundant to 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:08.720 say that shame is a taboo subject. I mean, it's 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:13.360 practically synonymous with taboo. But over and over again, what 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:15.440 I see in my life as a writer, as a 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:18.960 teacher of writing, and as host of this podcast is 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:22.280 that so many of us walk around feeling consumed by shame, 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:26.960 and that feeling is one of being very very much alone. 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:31.360 And the only cure, the only way to blast our 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:34.760 way out of that horrible isolation chamber of shame, is 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:39.360 to speak to its source, to tell the truth, because 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:43.240 I can promise you this. Whatever we feel the most 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:48.160 ashamed of is also what makes us most beautifully, imperfectly, 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:56.800 profoundly human. Things go from very bad to very much worse. 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:01.160 Debbie stepfather, the one who Mom met in the Parents 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:05.880 without Partners meeting, is not only beating Debbie. That's not all. 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:12.360 The real dark, dark dark years were between nineteen seventy 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:15.320 two and in nineteen seventy five, the right after they 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:18.880 got divorced and right before I was reunited with my dad. 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:22.680 Seventy two, seventy three, seventy seventy five were the dark 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:26.240 years of my life because this man who my mother 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:30.920 married UM was not only physically violent and not only 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:35.640 emotionally violent, he was also sexually violent and was a 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:41.240 um and and and raped me repeatedly from the time 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:45.560 I was UM maybe ten and a half eleven, twelve thirteen. 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:50.480 In those years until until he finally until my mother 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:54.600 finally divorced him um I. It was a very different 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:57.080 time than it is now, and at that time in 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:01.560 my life, Danny I didn't know that something like this 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:05.640 could happen to anyone like it. This was something that 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:12.640 didn't seem conceivable to even happen, and I thought I 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:16.280 was the only person in the world this was happening too. 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:20.000 He was very strong, he had been a professional boxer 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:24.720 in Germany. He was German, and told me that if 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:28.120 I ever told anyone that he would kill my brother, 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:36.080 and I believed him. He beat my brother repeatedly and 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:41.920 treated him terribly while we were all together, but I 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:44.760 and I really thought that he would and could, and 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:47.680 he said he had it all figured out, and so 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:52.640 I didn't tell anybody. I didn't tell anybody. I actually 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:55.720 didn't know that it ever happened to anybody else until 0:16:56.160 --> 0:17:00.760 I read a letter in newsday I was. I loved 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:03.000 getting the newspaper my parents. My mother got the newspaper, 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:04.560 got it every day, and I'd read the comics and 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:07.680 do the cryptograms. And there was a letter to Anne 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:12.440 Lander's about somebody who was writing to her about being abused, 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:16.679 and she urged that person to tell someone. And I 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:19.080 cut the letter out and put it onto my mattress 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:22.679 because I suddenly realized I wasn't alone. But for years 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:25.320 and years I was too afraid to tell anybody because 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:30.439 I was really convinced. I was ten eleven, twelve thirteen 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:35.280 years old that I would be responsible for my brother's death, 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:41.639 and so I didn't tell anyone, no one. Imagine a 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:44.800 little girl who cuts the letter out of a newspaper 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:48.159 and keeps it under her bed to remind herself that 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:51.760 she is not alone to give words to what's happening 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:54.480 to her, even if she is unable to speak these 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:58.879 words for many years. This conversation between Debbie and me 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:02.720 took place during the few days following the courageous testimony 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:06.200 of Dr Christine blass Ford a neat response of Brett 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:11.879 Kavanaugh to her testimony. The idea being there was no corroboration, 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.520 the idea of being why didn't she say something at 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:19.639 the time, The idea being it's her word against his. 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:28.800 The sense of the loneness that you must have felt, 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:33.360 and not having the language for it right, not even 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:37.800 having the neural pathways to understand what was happening. I 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:43.680 had no idea, no idea. At some point, when she's 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:48.000 twelve or thirteen, Debbie gets her period, and then she 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:52.120 doesn't get her period. She becomes petrified that she's pregnant. 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:56.560 She doesn't speak the truth to a single soul. Instead, 0:18:57.119 --> 0:18:59.959 she makes up a story because what else can she do? 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:06.800 Who can she turn to? I ended up concocting a story, 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:11.080 and I told my mother that I had been assaulted 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:18.199 at school, and she took me to a doctor. She 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:21.960 also informed the school, and and then I had all 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:27.280 the added guilt of lying, and she took me to 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:31.840 a doctor and the doctor examined me, and the doctor 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:35.240 told my mother that it was not possible that this 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:39.000 was a one off situation because of this scar tissue 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:43.440 that I had, and told her instead that I must 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:48.680 be lying because I must have had a boyfriend because 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:54.560 of what he saw as repetitive activity. A twelve year 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:59.800 old girl, a sixth grader must have a boyfriend, Yeah, 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:05.439 that must be it. So I wasn't believed, and I 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:10.960 just had to continue on. My mother never confronted me 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:16.679 about it. She didn't accuse me of lying. We're going 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:18.960 to take a quick break. We'll be back in a moment, 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:27.960 So let's fast forward more than forty years. Debbie tells 0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:31.320 me that during Dr Christine Blassie Ford and Brett Kavanaugh's 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:34.960 testimony just a couple of days earlier, while she's glued 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:37.639 to the television along with so many women in America, 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:43.040 her mother texts her and asks how she's doing. I 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:46.040 wrote her back and said, you know, it's been a difficult, 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:51.520 in challenging a couple of days, and we then got 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:57.200 into a back and forth text conversation and I once 0:20:57.240 --> 0:21:03.160 again asked her how it was possible during the time 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:06.119 that it was happening to me, because it all happened 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:09.960 in the house where we all lived, in the one 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:14.879 bathroom that that we had in that house, with the 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:18.359 door locked, How she could not know? How could she 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:23.119 not know that this was happening to me? And she 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:28.640 insist that she didn't, And at this point I really 0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:32.840 do believe her, because I don't think that she would 0:21:32.880 --> 0:21:37.880 have been able to live with herself if she did 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:44.080 believe that it was happening. Nevertheless, um she told me 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:47.719 something that I didn't know before, which was that after 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:53.880 she told my stepfather what had happened to me in school, 0:21:55.480 --> 0:22:00.240 that he responded with such indifference that it was leave 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:04.760 then that she knew what had happened. And that makes 0:22:04.800 --> 0:22:08.800 a lot of sense now because she never berated me 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:11.359 for lying, she never accused me of having a boyfriend, 0:22:12.040 --> 0:22:17.479 and then very shortly after that experience, she did divorce him. 0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:22.359 It's amazing the way of family secret can continue to 0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:26.879 reveal itself and reveal itself over the course of a lifetime, 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:33.960 like this other layer that you in your mid fifties discover. Yes, Yes, 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:36.199 because if somebody had said, well, what why did your 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:39.159 mother ultimately leave your stepfather, I would have said, I 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:41.600 actually don't know. I just assumed it was because he was, 0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:46.000 you know, a heinous person um. And now I know. 0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:52.160 Remember how I said, this is a story of resilience. Well, 0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:54.760 that's feeling a little bit too easy to me. We 0:22:54.840 --> 0:22:57.760 bat around the world resilience a lot. It falls into 0:22:57.760 --> 0:23:02.480 a basket of words like authenticity, vulnerability, ideas that many 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:05.480 of us, like a lot, see value in, but aren't 0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:10.320 sure exactly how to achieve. This next part is what 0:23:10.440 --> 0:23:14.560 most inspires me, not the horrific story of abuse you've 0:23:14.600 --> 0:23:17.399 just heard, but the story of a spirit that was 0:23:17.480 --> 0:23:21.760 greater than the violence perpetrated on it. This, my friends, 0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:25.520 is about the deepest kind of triumph. You know, your 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:31.200 brain can only only except what it thinks it can tolerate. 0:23:31.840 --> 0:23:35.920 And I wish that I had the memory of every 0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:41.760 single assault that was perpetrated on me. I wish that 0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:46.600 I remembered every single time so that I could figure 0:23:46.600 --> 0:23:49.000 out a way to erase it somehow. I mean, I 0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:53.600 wish I remember the first time. I remember specific times, 0:23:54.080 --> 0:23:57.640 but I don't remember every time. But I do remember 0:23:58.480 --> 0:24:01.840 walking one day on the sidewalk of my neighborhood in 0:24:02.280 --> 0:24:05.879 on Long Island, thinking, if only this wasn't happening to me, 0:24:06.080 --> 0:24:12.200 I would be the happiest person alive. Just think about 0:24:12.200 --> 0:24:15.920 what it takes to formulate that thought. If only this 0:24:16.040 --> 0:24:20.000 wasn't happening to me, I would be the happiest person alive. 0:24:22.680 --> 0:24:27.600 I am only now thirty years into analysis and therapy, 0:24:28.040 --> 0:24:33.760 really trying to understand how did I actually managed through event? 0:24:34.800 --> 0:24:41.080 And I always wanted a better life. I started therapy 0:24:41.359 --> 0:24:44.680 two years out of college, So I did six years 0:24:44.720 --> 0:24:48.680 of therapy with one UH with one counselor, and then 0:24:48.720 --> 0:24:53.960 went into like a real analysis that began in and 0:24:54.000 --> 0:24:57.840 I've been working with the same doctor ever since. And 0:24:57.920 --> 0:25:01.040 so she saved my life. She has given me a 0:25:01.160 --> 0:25:05.919 way out of that horror I was. I was functional, 0:25:06.480 --> 0:25:09.639 and I'm very fortunate that I was never addicted to 0:25:09.720 --> 0:25:15.720 drugs and I was never self destructive. But I think 0:25:15.760 --> 0:25:19.880 that wanting so much more, and also being creative and 0:25:19.920 --> 0:25:25.639 seeing that I could make things allowed me to essentially 0:25:25.840 --> 0:25:35.359 escape and otherwise really dismal, dismal experience. Yeah, let's talk 0:25:35.400 --> 0:25:38.600 about that, because I feel like so much of your 0:25:38.640 --> 0:25:42.480 story and mine in this regard, has to do with 0:25:43.200 --> 0:25:50.040 being saved in a way by creativity, by art. Do 0:25:50.080 --> 0:25:54.440 you know the term narrative medicine? No? Yeah, I love it. Interesting, 0:25:54.560 --> 0:25:57.160 I thought you would. It's it's a it's a it's 0:25:57.160 --> 0:26:01.440 a relatively new literary field. And I remember the first 0:26:01.480 --> 0:26:04.080 time I heard it, um, and I heard it in 0:26:04.160 --> 0:26:06.680 relation to my own work, to my memoirs, that you 0:26:06.720 --> 0:26:09.000 know that what I have been doing all these years 0:26:09.440 --> 0:26:13.000 without having the term for it is narrative medicine in 0:26:13.040 --> 0:26:15.080 some way. And I kind of recoiled against it because 0:26:15.080 --> 0:26:17.800 it felt a little bit too self helpy to me, 0:26:18.000 --> 0:26:22.440 or too much like writing a therapy or journal ing. Um. 0:26:22.480 --> 0:26:28.399 But I've come to understand what it means to share 0:26:28.680 --> 0:26:33.280 a story, to shape a story, to craft, to craft 0:26:34.080 --> 0:26:39.520 art out of the chaos of a life. Well, because 0:26:39.560 --> 0:26:43.000 I thought about this so much, I've come to the 0:26:43.040 --> 0:26:47.679 conclusion that my longing for a better life was bigger 0:26:47.720 --> 0:26:53.840 than my shame about my existing life, and so that 0:26:54.000 --> 0:26:59.920 is what propelled me forward. I also, the older I've gotten, 0:27:00.440 --> 0:27:05.399 the less secretive I've been, and I kept the my 0:27:05.480 --> 0:27:13.080 abuse and violation and even even the fundamental um dysfunction 0:27:13.440 --> 0:27:18.520 in my relationship with my dad pretty much secret. Until 0:27:19.320 --> 0:27:24.399 the last five years. I was really ashamed of of 0:27:24.400 --> 0:27:26.359 what happened to me. I felt that I would be 0:27:26.960 --> 0:27:33.159 seen as damaged or inferior, and told my closest friends 0:27:33.200 --> 0:27:39.520 and and partners, but was not in any way a 0:27:39.640 --> 0:27:47.320 spokesperson for overcoming trauma or abuse. And initially it was 0:27:47.680 --> 0:27:54.200 more motivated by a sense of not letting those bad 0:27:54.240 --> 0:27:58.159 experiences sort of win or overtake the theme of my life. 0:27:58.520 --> 0:28:00.600 And I would always tell people, I, you know, I'm 0:28:00.600 --> 0:28:02.480 not going to give in to that. I'm not going 0:28:02.560 --> 0:28:07.240 to let that thought me And in fact, you you 0:28:07.240 --> 0:28:09.760 you don't have the capacity to let it stop you 0:28:09.880 --> 0:28:12.480 or not. It will impact you if you don't deal 0:28:12.560 --> 0:28:15.240 with it. It will catch up to you and overtake 0:28:15.320 --> 0:28:18.600 you if you don't. It's only really in the last 0:28:18.640 --> 0:28:24.200 couple of years that I've become very transparent about these 0:28:24.600 --> 0:28:32.199 experiences with my close friends and partners and colleagues. Um, 0:28:32.280 --> 0:28:35.200 this is the most substantial conversation I've ever had about 0:28:35.240 --> 0:28:39.960 it in any kind of public forum. Debbie did briefly 0:28:40.000 --> 0:28:42.240 touch on her history of abuse when she was a 0:28:42.280 --> 0:28:46.320 guest on the Tim Ferris Show a couple of years back. Tim, 0:28:46.400 --> 0:28:49.160 who is as prepared as he is intuitive as a host, 0:28:49.880 --> 0:28:51.880 asked Debbie about her work as a board member for 0:28:51.920 --> 0:28:56.960 the Joyful Heart Foundation, an organization dedicated to eradicating sexual violence. 0:28:58.040 --> 0:29:01.400 On their website. Tim had noticed a comment of Debbie's 0:29:01.800 --> 0:29:04.640 about her work for Joyful Heart. She said that it 0:29:04.720 --> 0:29:09.920 made her entire life makes sense, and Tim wondered, what 0:29:09.920 --> 0:29:12.440