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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noel.

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Speaker 3: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer Paul, Mission controlled decand most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 3: You are here. That makes this the stuff they don't

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Speaker 3: want you to know, coming to you live from a

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Speaker 3: little thing called the United States. The history of our country,

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Speaker 3: our modern version of this country, is, if anything, I

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Speaker 3: think it's fair to say, a history of protest.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: It was started as a conspiracy by European colonists who

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Speaker 3: protested and rebelled against monarchies. And the history of this

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Speaker 3: country is largely a history of disenfranchised minorities protesting even today,

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Speaker 3: discrimination and other terrible things. And you know what got

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Speaker 3: me about this in general, in theory, it's so it's

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Speaker 3: so strange if you read a textbook after enough time

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Speaker 3: has passed, these protests are often seen as righteous and noble,

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Speaker 3: but only after they have occurred.

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Speaker 4: Its super common for that to be the case, and

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Speaker 4: the tragic irony here. I don't think is lost on

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Speaker 4: any of us. The idea that you know, the United

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Speaker 4: States was formed as a result of protests in and

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Speaker 4: of itself. But it's almost like only we are the

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Speaker 4: righteous ones, and everyone else that we have to step

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Speaker 4: on to get to our goals is totally fair game.

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Speaker 2: And any group that wants to protest the government in

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Speaker 2: general has been in the past viewed as enemies of

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Speaker 2: the state, right, anyone who wants to change the current

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Speaker 2: power structures, the way things function. These groups, at least

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Speaker 2: elements within them, have been viewed as as literal enemies.

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Speaker 3: Women voting terrorism, I say, I don't.

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Speaker 2: Know about that. The suffrage Did they infiltrate the suffrage movement?

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Speaker 3: There was no actual infiltration, It was just the vilification.

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Speaker 2: We're talking, he heard, yeah.

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Speaker 3: And when we look at I love the points we're

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Speaker 3: raising her. When we look at the events themselves, the protests,

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Speaker 3: the movements for quality themselves, and you look at the

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Speaker 3: times and the context in which these movements transpire, we

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Speaker 3: see over and over again a deep river of conspiracy.

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Speaker 3: Tonight's episode, the United States versus the American Indian Movement,

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Speaker 3: here are the facts this is common knowledge, right. The

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Speaker 3: US did and does treat Native American or Indigenous communities

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Speaker 3: pretty terribly, right. I think we're all of the age

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Speaker 3: where you could even learn this in your textbooks growing up, right.

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Speaker 4: I think for the most part, this didn't get a

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Speaker 4: pass in traditional the public schooling, or at least you

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Speaker 4: know what I experienced. I mean, the Trail of Tears,

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Speaker 4: the displacement of around sixty thousand Native people belonging to

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Speaker 4: the five Civilized Tribes between around eighteen thirty to eighteen fifty.

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Speaker 4: Just a mass you know, displacement really, you know, with

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Speaker 4: the zero attention or care paid to what would happen

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Speaker 4: to them, And even today I think we've talked about that. Finally,

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Speaker 4: it feels like in literature and pop culture, the Native

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Speaker 4: story is finally getting a little bit of air.

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Speaker 3: Could you tell everybody a little bit what what is

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Speaker 3: meant by five civilized tribes?

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Speaker 4: That's just the term that's used to describe them. I

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Speaker 4: think they were just organized. They had you know, culture,

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Speaker 4: they had lands, they had leadership, and essentially the US

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Speaker 4: government just said, you know, screw that. We don't care

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Speaker 4: about your history, we don't care about your legacy. We

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Speaker 4: don't care about your culture. We just want your land.

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Speaker 4: I believe the tribes were the Cherokee, the Seminole, the Muskogee,

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Speaker 4: the Chickasaw, and the Choctaw nations is what they're afrig

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Speaker 4: to because this this, these are long legacy peoples with

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Speaker 4: you know, religions, with belief systems, with government, with of

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Speaker 4: course family and ways of feeding and clothing and taking

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Speaker 4: care of themselves that were unconnected to the larger, you know,

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Speaker 4: civilized world let's call it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And to be clear, and this is an apolitical point,

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Speaker 3: to be clear, Separating those five cultures and communities and

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Speaker 3: calling only them civilized out of the many many tribal

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Speaker 3: or indigenous communities in the US was a move absolutely

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Speaker 3: divide people to mother them.

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Speaker 4: Yes, And I just just just to wrap up my

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Speaker 4: point at just saying of in the last maybe ten years,

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Speaker 4: we have finally really seen some of these stories come

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Speaker 4: into the four you know, with films like Killers of

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Speaker 4: the Flower Moon and television series like Reservation Dogs. These

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Speaker 4: are stories that I, you know, was not familiar with,

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Speaker 4: and it's it's really interesting to see, you know, a

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Speaker 4: view inside of reservation communities and how rough they have it.

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Speaker 4: And like basically we just said, you know, as a

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Speaker 4: consolation prize for all the horrific acts we perpetrated on them,

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Speaker 4: here you can have this little kind of you know,

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Speaker 4: also ran piece of land and certain fundings. But they're

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Speaker 4: they're not thriving, you know. Communities.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we've hit on a lot of this on this

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Speaker 2: show before, especially when we're talking about tribes that still

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Speaker 2: exist in Alaska and parts of Canada and places where

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Speaker 2: they are the tribe, the human beings within these you know,

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Speaker 2: tribal lands are neglected often and forgotten by power structures

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Speaker 2: that exist around them, which you know, are meant to

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Speaker 2: be separate from these areas and from like the governance

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Speaker 2: and the policing. But at the same time, it's a

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Speaker 2: weird situation of I would say, in my opinion, a

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Speaker 2: deliberate I was going to say lack of resources, but

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Speaker 2: it's like a pullback of resources.

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Speaker 3: Persecution by negligence.

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Speaker 4: There you go. And for me to say these communities

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Speaker 4: aren't thriving, that is not a ding on the communities.

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Speaker 4: It is exactly a reference to what you're saying, a

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Speaker 4: lack of resources, a lack of attention you know, by

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Speaker 4: the government.

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Speaker 3: I would also say that that passive persecution via negligence

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Speaker 3: transforms to a more active persecution if ever resources are

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Speaker 3: dis governed. Yeah, the small bit of land as left.

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Speaker 3: Talking about the uranium story that hit the news recently.

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Speaker 2: Yep, oh, the one last thing. Just about that five

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Speaker 2: tribes thing we're talking about, and how othering, like, how

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Speaker 2: othering that was on purpose? I think it's also a

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Speaker 2: way to identify a what would be considered an organized enemy,

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Speaker 2: an enemy that can can and in the eyes of

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Speaker 2: the governor or the people that are calling them, that

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Speaker 2: can and should be fought.

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Speaker 3: Basically right to define and address, which is always the mission.

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Speaker 3: And also similar to European activities on the African continent,

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Speaker 3: you want to you want to do everything you can

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Speaker 3: to diminish or erase communication, unity and community or common

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Speaker 3: cause between tribes that of course had a very long

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Speaker 3: history of collaboration and conflict, far before even even the

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Speaker 3: vikings came over. Because people have been here for a

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Speaker 3: long long time. What we're all saying here, fellow conspiracy realist,

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Speaker 3: is something we all know. Hopefully, It is common knowledge

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Speaker 3: that Europeans who arrived in the Americas did horrible, horrible

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Speaker 3: things to the many varied cultures and communities that already

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Speaker 3: long existed here. Pretty much every nasty thing you can

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Speaker 3: think of with the technology at the time was.

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Speaker 2: Deployed biological warfare. Seriously, but yeah, it was. The indigenous

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Speaker 2: peoples of North America were the first enemies of any

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Speaker 2: kind of organized government that landed from the outside in

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Speaker 2: North America.

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Speaker 4: Right, those are literally just defending their lands and their

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Speaker 4: people examine faders, you know, I mean, yeah, but.

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Speaker 2: It's crazy to think just when we're going in time

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Speaker 2: from the moment that the United States has formed, and

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Speaker 2: I mean well before that, when they're just colonies here,

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Speaker 2: these groups are and people's are the enemies of the establishment.

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Speaker 4: Well, and the Indian removal actors. What led to the

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Speaker 4: trailers tier as well. It wasn't exactly putting them in

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Speaker 4: camps per se or lining them up and having them executed.

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Speaker 4: It by many accounts of historians and scholars, was an

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Speaker 4: example of genocide or ethnic clensing, just by virtue of

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Speaker 4: the fact that many of them, thousands of them, did

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Speaker 4: not make it to their destination because of disease.

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Speaker 3: You know, it was just a starvation, at least partially

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Speaker 3: by design. Yeah, you don't have to look forward to

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Speaker 3: learn the history massacres, disease, as you said, genocide, forced relocation, assimilation,

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Speaker 3: which would be cultural erasure. And the overall theme is

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Speaker 3: an unending line of broken promises treaties, the consequences of

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Speaker 3: which continue in the modern day. And folks, we're here

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Speaker 3: with you. Many of our fellow conspiracy realists, our first tribe,

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Speaker 3: Native American, Indigenous, or you share ancestry from indigenous communities,

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Speaker 3: like several of us on the show, so for many

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Speaker 3: of us this is familiar. There is a quote I

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Speaker 3: found that gives us a snapshot of the present day

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Speaker 3: that kind of sums up everything we said. It's from

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Speaker 3: a bit of a problematic source with an agenda, but

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Speaker 3: I think it's interesting to quote from this problematic source

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Speaker 3: because even they recognize a problem. So I want to

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Speaker 3: give this quote in like a professorial voice.

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Speaker 4: This is from the Foundation for Economic Education. And yes,

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Speaker 4: one of the reasons the United States became the most

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Speaker 4: prosperous nation in the history of the world can be

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Speaker 4: found to the institutions created to protect individual liberty, free markets,

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Speaker 4: and private property rights, all of which incentivize entrepreneurship and innovation. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 4: the prosperity that exists due to the institutions created by

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Speaker 4: the Founders is not afforded to all American citizens.

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Speaker 3: We're going to stop it there, because that's about as

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Speaker 3: far as they get in terms of stuff we all

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Speaker 3: agree with. After that, they get into how amazing deregulation

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Speaker 3: will be, and that is just cartoonishly incorrect.

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Speaker 2: Well, in the name of entrepreneurship and innovation, we must

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Speaker 2: end regulator regulatorist ship.

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Speaker 3: That's what the Founded fathers, who had all kinds of

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Speaker 3: proposed regulations, would surely have wanted. They were more occupied

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Speaker 3: with stockings and wigs. The statistics are there for anybody

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Speaker 3: who cares to look. For instance, some of the best

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Speaker 3: numbers come from about four years ago. The Native American

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Speaker 3: poverty rate in the United States was north to twenty

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Speaker 3: five percent twenty six point two percent in twenty twenty,

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Speaker 3: almost double that of the rest of the US. Forced

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Speaker 3: relocation has also led to another consequence people don't often

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Speaker 3: think about, which is the United States purposely pushed these

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Speaker 3: people by hook or by crook, into land that they

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Speaker 3: thought was worthless. Hard arid land, very difficult to survive,

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Speaker 3: you know, and as a result, of that in the

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Speaker 3: modern evenings, these communities are much more vulnerable to climate change,

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Speaker 3: and did someone think about that, maybe, but did they

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Speaker 3: care absolutely not. This is where we have to talk

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Speaker 3: about termination policy, which was a real name, not from

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Speaker 3: some sort of eighteen hundreds manifest destiny crap, but from

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Speaker 3: nineteen fifty three. Termination policy is a real thing the

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Speaker 3: FEDS did.

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Speaker 2: Termination policy is when the government, as you said, in

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Speaker 2: nineteen fifty three, decided by itself, hey, we'd no longer

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Speaker 2: recognize a lot of tribes, like one hundred or more tribes,

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Speaker 2: and they made people in tribes that they no longer

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Speaker 2: recognized leave the areas that they push them to in

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Speaker 2: the first place. Historically, it's just insane.

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Speaker 3: M Yeah, I said, well, you know, we know that

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Speaker 3: we did recognize you as like, we recognize your culture,

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Speaker 3: we recognize you as a people with and we know

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Speaker 3: we have this whole thing earlier with inalienable rights. But

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Speaker 3: you guys got to get out again. You got to

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Speaker 3: go to like Chicago or Milwaukee or Minneapolis, just you

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Speaker 3: know GTFO.

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah.

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Speaker 2: The weird thing that I don't understand with this is

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Speaker 2: did they make all of those people who were members

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Speaker 2: of tribes once now American citizens, Like, is that what

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Speaker 2: they did? They said, Hey, guess what, you're a citizen now, congratulations.

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Speaker 2: I honestly don't know.

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Speaker 4: Well. What they did try to do through an actual infrastructure,

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Speaker 4: I guess was assimilate them without really giving them the

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Speaker 4: same rights afforded to you know, American citizens. And I

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Speaker 4: guess this is as good a time as any just

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Speaker 4: to mention a new story that just came out from

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Speaker 4: the New York Times about these Indian boarding schools that

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Speaker 4: from the eighteen hundreds to as late as the nineteen sixties,

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Speaker 4: US government actually removed Native children from their homes and

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Speaker 4: families and sent them to these boarding schools where they

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Speaker 4: were taught to be Americans. Essentially cultural erasure. Spent about

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Speaker 4: around twenty five billion dollars by today's measure on this effort.

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Speaker 4: And there's a report that came out very recently. This

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Speaker 4: article from the Times is from July thirtieth, that nearly

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Speaker 4: a thousand American, Indian, Alaskan, Native and Native Hawaiian children

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Speaker 4: died while attending these Indian assimilation boarding schools.

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Speaker 3: And do check out our earlier episodes on these sorts

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Speaker 3: of operations. These conspiracies. Sometimes north of the of the

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Speaker 3: US border. In Canada, they were called residential schools. But

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Speaker 3: though the names in the nomenclature may change, the goal

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Speaker 3: of these terrible operations is the same. Many people under

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Speaker 3: termination policy did move, in some cases because they could

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Speaker 3: not afford not to move due to the carrots and

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Speaker 3: sticks employed against them. And when they did move to

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Speaker 3: these cities, they found there were no jobs, there were

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Speaker 3: no educational opportunities, and they were heavily profiled and persecuted

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Speaker 3: by local law enforcement of the time like Heavy Heavy,

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Speaker 3: And as a result of this, this chaos, this continuing aggression,

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Speaker 3: the American Indian Movement Arises, or AIM as it was

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Speaker 3: typically called in some co Intel pro documents. It's founded

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Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty eight in Minneapolis, one of those cities

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Speaker 3: that people were pushed to under termination policy, and it's

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Speaker 3: generally the brainchild of four people Ojibwe activists George Mitchell,

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Speaker 3: Dennis Banks, Eddie Benton, Benai, and Clyde Bellacourt. Their original

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Speaker 3: purpose is to provide aid to Native people's members of

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Speaker 3: these communities that apparently don't existent according to Congress. And

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Speaker 3: they say, we're going to help these people who got

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Speaker 3: forcibly displaced again in the modern day. And as they

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Speaker 3: continued they met with success. Their goals grew to encompass

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Speaker 3: an entire spectrum, a monopoly of native demands that have

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Speaker 3: been going on for generations now. Economic independence, recognition of

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Speaker 3: traditional culture, protection of legal rights like hey, maybe enforce

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Speaker 3: one of these treaties at some point, and autonomy over

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Speaker 3: tribal areas. The big one, the big sticky one for

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Speaker 3: the FEDS, the restoration of lands that had an aims perspective,

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Speaker 3: been illegally seized and also, by the way, in the

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Speaker 3: perspective of pretty much any legal scholar, have been illegally seized.

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Speaker 4: But doesn't it just show how a lot of these

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Speaker 4: treaties are kind of just optics, and you know, we're

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Speaker 4: not fair dealing, you know, with these tribes, with these groups,

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Speaker 4: because we don't view them or historically didn't view them

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Speaker 4: as equal, or there was almost a desire to like

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Speaker 4: put one over on their leadership. I just I don't know,

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Speaker 4: I just when I see things like this and these

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Speaker 4: kinds of treaties that is time and time again not honored,

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Speaker 4: I just feel like things like this are toothless and

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Speaker 4: just sort of like to absolve the oppressor, you know,

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Speaker 4: of responsibility, rather than to actually do something positive for

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Speaker 4: the oppressed.

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Speaker 2: Dude, Okay, there's a connection here. I agree with you.

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Speaker 2: The connection is the Civil rights movement and black power movements.

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Speaker 2: So let's go back to because we said that the

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Speaker 2: American Indian Movement or AIM, was founded in nineteen sixty

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Speaker 2: eight in Minneapolis, let's jump to Oakland, California, nineteen sixty six.

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Speaker 2: That's when Huey Newton and Bobby Seal formed the Black

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Speaker 2: Panther Party for Self Defense that has a lot of

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Speaker 2: the same goals, and it was viewed immediately as a

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Speaker 2: negative thing, a threat to the establishment, to the United

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Speaker 2: States government. And I can only imagine that when the

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Speaker 2: American Indian Movement forms their eyes on like at least

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Speaker 2: from certain areas of the Virginia Washington DC area.

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Speaker 3: How diplomatic, Yes, certain areas of Virginia, Ames leaders did,

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Speaker 3: You're absolutely right, man, AMES leaders took inspiration from the

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Speaker 3: Civil Rights movement and the policies of nonviolent confrontation, nonviolent protest.

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Speaker 3: As time went on, as we will see, this strategy evolved,

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Speaker 3: perhaps out of necessity. AIM was involved in many many protests,

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Speaker 3: some of which will get to the occupation of Alcatraz,

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Speaker 3: which does have a little bit of levity to it,

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Speaker 3: The Trail of Broken Treaties demonstration in nineteen seventy two,

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Speaker 3: that's the big one, right, that's one of the big ones. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And the occupation of Wounded me Or Reservation in nineteen

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Speaker 3: seventy three. This is all just the tip of a

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Speaker 3: proverbial iceberg. Let's consider the context as we're saying the

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Speaker 3: nineteen seventies. Like, as we said at the top, this

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Speaker 3: can sound strange in twenty twenty four, this bevy of conspiracies,

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Speaker 3: We get it, but we have to understand that in

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Speaker 3: the nineteen seventies, the public is still reeling after the

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Speaker 3: assassinations folks like doctor Martin Luther King Junior Robert Kennedy.

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Speaker 3: The US government is still intensely concerned. From their perspective,

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Speaker 3: any civil rights movement might be affront for a foreign

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Speaker 3: power Kauugh cough, Soviet Russia kauf cough, or a home

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Speaker 3: grown threat to the status quo. So what may seem

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Speaker 3: to us to be a very American impulse to push

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Speaker 3: for equality and more rights could to the powers that

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Speaker 3: be seem a lot more like a domestic terrorist organization,

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Speaker 3: even if they don't use those phrases.

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Speaker 4: You're saying that it was seen as potential for opportunists

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Speaker 4: to co opt the movement and kind of infiltrate it

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Speaker 4: and use it and bend it to their own aims,

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Speaker 4: or sort of be masquerading as members of this protest

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Speaker 4: movement but actually be attempting to, you know, seek aims

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Speaker 4: that are that are unrelated to that movement.

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Speaker 3: Well, keep in mind, let's I mean, that's an excellent question. No,

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Speaker 3: let's keep in mind that the US is acutely aware

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Speaker 3: of the possibilities of these tactics because at this point

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Speaker 3: they have deployed them in Latin America, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: They have exactly well, and they're also at this time,

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Speaker 2: right as all of this is occurring, the FBI has

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Speaker 2: an active quote rabble Rouser Index that they've been tracking

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Speaker 2: for years of people, individuals within organizations that they think

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Speaker 2: might be a threat. And the individual is a specific

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Speaker 2: threat because they're either really good at talking to other people,

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Speaker 2: or they're really good at whatever it is they do

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Speaker 2: within that organization.

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Speaker 3: Or they have a perceived web of connections exact and

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Speaker 3: those connections may be the problematic piece question tonight, how

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Speaker 3: did AJ This is a bit of a softball. How

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Speaker 3: did agencies like the FBI and CIA react to Aim?

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Speaker 3: How did the US respond to these demands for quality,

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Speaker 3: equity and justice. We'll tell you after a word from

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Speaker 3: our sponsors. Here's where it gets crazy. Uncle Sam eventually

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Speaker 3: totally tried to crush AIM, similar to the techniques applied

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Speaker 3: against the earlier civil rights movement. We're tacking blackmail, We're

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Speaker 3: talking trying to turn people, get some moles in there.

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Speaker 3: They from pretty much from the jump. They regarded Aim

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Speaker 3: in a, if not antagonistic light, in a very skeptical,

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Speaker 3: distrustful light. But their first responses seemed surprisingly reasonable, especially

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Speaker 3: if you from the perspective of twenty twenty four's incredibly

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Speaker 3: hostile and devisive climate. The Nixon administration ran into something

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Speaker 3: that is absolutely going to have to be a full

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Speaker 3: ridiculous history episode. They helped occupy Alcatraz Island. You guys

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Speaker 3: remember Alcatraz Island from like when Sean Connery got caught

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Speaker 3: up in there?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the rock Rock, Yes, that's yeah, all those green balls, man,

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Speaker 2: look out.

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Speaker 4: I went on a tour of Alcatraz when I was

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Speaker 4: really little, and it made an impression on me. I mean,

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Speaker 4: it is a really interesting kind of you know, museum

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Speaker 4: at this point. There is some interesting history to it,

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Speaker 4: of course, but what it represented was the just the

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Speaker 4: iron fisted grasp of the United States, you know, hegemony,

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Speaker 4: I guess, the ability to contain the bad elements, you know,

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Speaker 4: on this island instapable unless you're, of course, Shuck Connery

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Speaker 4: and Nick Kay's with the green balls. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: The Alcatraz Federal Penitentiary, it starts being a prison in

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Speaker 3: nineteen thirty four and it shuts down in nineteen sixty three.

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Speaker 3: When it shuts down in sixty three, Native American organizations

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Speaker 3: start lobbying and they say, hey, look, you're not using this.

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Speaker 3: Can we redevelop this island as a Native American cultural

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Speaker 3: center or school, you know, and or school. And in

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Speaker 3: March of sixty four, just the year after the prison

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Speaker 3: shuts down, five members of the Sioux community attempt to

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Speaker 3: seize the island to take physical possession of it under

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Speaker 3: an interesting treaty, the Fort Laramie Treaty of eighteen sixty eight,

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Speaker 3: which technically, if the US ever enforced it would allow

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Speaker 3: Native American communities to appropriate surplus federal land.

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Speaker 4: Wait a minute, Wait a minute, constitude, what constitute surplus though, guys,

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Speaker 4: I mean we we've got bit, We're planning an arcade.

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Speaker 4: We're gonna put a David Busters there. This is not surplus.

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Speaker 2: Well that that project that you're speaking of has not.

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Speaker 2: It's not gone across the table yet, so they are

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Speaker 2: unaware of any plans for a giant Dave and Busters

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Speaker 2: on Alcatraz. So theoretically, at this moment it is surplus.

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Speaker 3: Right right. And also we know the game. Treaties in

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Speaker 3: the US work in one direction. Shout out to Iran,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean? Like that has always been

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Speaker 3: the great game.

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Speaker 4: Shout out to one direction, you know, masters of diplomacy

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Speaker 4: and new direction.

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Speaker 3: Oh, early efforts do fail. But because of this, the

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Speaker 3: island becomes a focal point, a symbol of government indifference

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Speaker 3: towards the Indigenous, and sober claiming it amidst these communities

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Speaker 3: is a powerful rallying cry, Let's get the rock. A

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Speaker 3: fire destroys the American Indian Center in San Francisco in

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Speaker 3: October in nineteen sixty nine, and a new activist group rises.

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Speaker 3: Indians of all tribes. Dennis Banks and other members of

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Speaker 3: AIM are part of this grand coalition. It's like a supergroup.

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Speaker 3: It's like the Avengers of this activism. And at first

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Speaker 3: they send a handful of protesters to the island on

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Speaker 3: November ninth in nineteen sixty nine. They're led by a

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Speaker 3: college student from the Mohawk community guide him Richard Oaks.

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Speaker 3: They last maybe like around twenty four hours. They're there,

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Speaker 3: around twenty four hours. They get forced out, but they

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Speaker 3: see it as a success. And Oaks has a great

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Speaker 3: quote about this from the San Francisco Chronicle.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's a success and that people are noticing that

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Speaker 4: it's taking place, and they can't help but notice what

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Speaker 4: it represents. And he said, if a one day patient

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Speaker 4: by white men on Indian land years ago established squatters' rights,

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Speaker 4: then the one day occupation of Alcatraz should establish Indian

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Speaker 4: rights to the.

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Speaker 3: Island, reciprocities to show a drug to shame. It did work,

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Speaker 3: but it did. I love your point there. It didn't

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Speaker 3: work in terms of physical occupation, but it did work

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Speaker 3: in terms of what I would call mental occupation and awareness.

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Speaker 3: It actually raised awareness. And this is a lesson that

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Speaker 3: a lot of those are SATs fundraisers from the very

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Speaker 3: wealthy who are like, oh, we're throwing this opulent ball

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Speaker 3: to raise awareness of people we've never met and don't

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Speaker 3: really care about. That's a lesson you could take philanthropists. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I walked down the street from that one. But it

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Speaker 3: is irritating the protesters do make another attempt to seize Alcatraz.

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Speaker 3: This is the big one, Paul. If we could get

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Speaker 3: some conspiratory oriole adventure music pulsing the rock, you know

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Speaker 3: what we're talking about, like the Escape from Alcatraz kind

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Speaker 3: of stuff. Perfect, all right, It's November twentieth, nineteen sixty nine.

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Speaker 3: It's the wee hours pre dawn and occupation force of

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Speaker 3: eighty nine men, women and children sail through San Francisco

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Speaker 3: Bay under the cover of darkness. They landed Alcatraz. They

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Speaker 3: claimed the island for all the indigenous tribes of North America.

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Speaker 3: They issue a manifesto addressed to the Great White Father

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Speaker 3: and all his people, and they say, look, we're going

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Speaker 3: to do what we said we're gonna do. This is

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Speaker 3: going to be a school, it's going to be a

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Speaker 3: cultural center. We're going to be We're going to make

432
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 3: a museum as well, and they said, look, we know

433
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 3: the rules. We'll do what you guys said, Alcatraz is

434
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 3: ours by rights of discovery.

435
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, dude, no, come on. They sailed there and

436
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 2: they discovered.

437
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 4: That thing, right and as American as hell? Yeah right,

438
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 4: I mean serious. By the way, is the great white

439
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 4: father Nixon? Who is the great white father in this

440
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 4: man It's like the idea of white power. Yeah, okay,

441
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 4: got it.

442
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 3: And they also said, this is my favorite part. This

443
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 3: is part of why we're telling this story because we

444
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 3: need some levity here. The group said, Alcatraz, you know,

445
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 3: it's definitely ours, but if you want, we'll buy it

446
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 3: from you. We'll give you twenty four dollars worth of

447
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 3: glass beads and some red cloth.

448
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 4: Oh this is seek trolling, right yeah, which is supposedly

449
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 4: the same price that Indians received for the entire island

450
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 4: of Manhattan, which we know America has gotten some real

451
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 4: bang for that buck. So once again too shee, I say.

452
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 4: The activists say there said they didn't mind that the

453
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 4: island was underdeveloped, and they were even cool with the

454
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 4: lack of fresh water. Most of them had already I

455
00:29:55,200 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 4: mean to our previous point endured far worse conditions on

456
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 4: the reservations that the United States so graciously bestowed upon them.

457
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 2: Let's really think about, like the work it would take

458
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 2: to make a running working all of the stuff that

459
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 2: this group wanted to do on Alcatraz, just setting up

460
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 2: the supply lines and everything. Mike, I mean, if you're

461
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 2: willing to do that, then as a US government, you

462
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 2: should be like, Okay, that sounds great, take care of

463
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 2: this problem it. Yeah, it's a huge opportunity, but it's

464
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 2: just going to be so much work.

465
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 4: What I mean by an opportunity is an opportunity to

466
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 4: show collaboration and working together. And maybe it could even

467
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 4: be it could have been seen as a good pr

468
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 4: move because the onus of getting the work done is

469
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 4: on them. So what do we have to lose. We

470
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 4: give them the island, say go for it, and then

471
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 4: if they do do it, then that's an example of

472
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 4: Native American ingenuity that has been bolstered by the magnanimous

473
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 4: acts of Uncle Sam.

474
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 3: Uh huh do do?

475
00:30:58,520 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 4: First?

476
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 3: Secondly? Secondly, agreed, agreed. The issue we have to remember

477
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 3: from from the federal perspective, at this time, this was

478
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 3: close to capitulating to terrorism. Right. It was seeming both statisqut.

479
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 4: It just seems so short sighted.

480
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 3: Well, who are we to who are we to judge

481
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 3: good folks like Hoover and Nixon.

482
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 2: The conspiracy boy we are, Well how did Nixon respond?

483
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 3: Yeah? Thank you? They the set up the Yeah, the

484
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 3: administration opted to buy their time. They said, look, we

485
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 3: are not gonna this might be a bit of a

486
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 3: lose lose Kobayashi Maru, but the lesser loss is to

487
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 3: not interfere. The greater loss is violent intervention, a siege

488
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 3: of Alcatraz. So they said, as long as these protesters

489
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 3: remain peaceful, eventually they're going to run out of stuff.

490
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 3: They're like, we all know about this isle. Eventually, to

491
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 3: the point we're making about supply chains, we're going to

492
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 3: run out of support there. These folks leave, This will

493
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 3: also exit the news cycle. Yet celebrities joined in. This

494
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 3: is around the time that we see this ground swell

495
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 3: of like Jane Fond of Marlon Brando support. The band

496
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 3: Credence Clearwater gave the protesters their own boat to help

497
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 3: with supply lines.

498
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 4: It was called the clear Water Thank God. Credence is

499
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 4: in the mix, y'all. You know that's when you know

500
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 4: things are taking the bizarret available. He was unavailable for

501
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 4: seven reasons. Sorry, I guess I when I was talking

502
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 4: earlier about like it could have been a pr opportunity,

503
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 4: I guess the US did sort of act in the

504
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 4: way that I was describing. They didn't like stage a

505
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 4: siege of the protests. You know, they didn't intervene with violence.

506
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 4: They basically left them to their own devices for a time.

507
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 4: But I guess that did not go on forever.

508
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is a very long time for an occupation.

509
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 3: It's quite extraordinary, actually, And even as the protest was

510
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 3: still underway in let's say July of nineteen seventy, then

511
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 3: President Nixon gave a speech saying his version of like,

512
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 3: oh good. He said, the time has come for a

513
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 3: new era in which the Indian future is determined by

514
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 3: Indian acts and Indian decisions. Now, a lot of activists

515
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 3: would argue that was the original era of Native American communities,

516
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 3: but the US government did later return millions of acres

517
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 3: of ancestral land to indigenous communities. They passed a bunch

518
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 3: of legislative proposals. And be careful how I say this.

519
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 3: That seemed to support tribal autonomy, which led to some

520
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 3: of the stuff we're talking about now, like or we

521
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 3: mentioned earlier, you know, the idea of tribal police, the

522
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 3: idea of a government within a government on a reservatione.

523
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 4: So isn't he essentially saying like, we would like it

524
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 4: to go back to you guys governing and taking care

525
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 4: of yourselves without us having to help you similar So

526
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,879
Speaker 4: it seems like that's the vibe, like here, we'll give

527
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 4: you back some of this stuff that we took, but

528
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 4: we are now basically more or less washing our hands

529
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:27,320
Speaker 4: of you.

530
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 3: There were lights, well there were let me be clear,

531
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 3: there there were concrete pieces of legislation here that that

532
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 3: did provide means of support and transition to.

533
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 4: Being too hard, I mean it's hard not to be,

534
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 4: especially given the first half of the podcast and all

535
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 4: of the gnarly stuff we did and how long it

536
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 4: took to act. So I apologize if I'm going a

537
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,359
Speaker 4: little too hard on old uncle Sammy Boyle.

538
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 3: I don't think is necessary.

539
00:34:58,560 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, just you.

540
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:08,800
Speaker 3: So the Indian rights organizations continued, however, because a promise

541
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 3: from the American government, as you might assume, is treated

542
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 3: a little bit skeptically by these communities. Why is that, Well,

543
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 3: you know, they're Google search away, folks. So Indian rights

544
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 3: organizations also were galvanized by the imperfect yet clear success

545
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 3: of the Alcatraz occupation. We saw a later protest at

546
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 3: Plymouth Rock about Rushmore, at the Bureau of Indian Affairs

547
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 3: in Washington, d C. Dozens and dozens of other sites.

548
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 3: Should we talk a little bit about that BI A occupation.

549
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 2: Yes, I think we should, because this happened in the

550
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 2: heart of Washington, d C. Which, as we know, the

551
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 2: FBI don't take kindly to people who mess around in Washington,

552
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 2: d C. In their neck woods. And this act what

553
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 2: occurred here is in my opinion at least guys, what

554
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 2: galvanized the a lot of the FBI movement to really

555
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 2: crack down on the American Indian movement and all of

556
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 2: these movements that are occurring at this time. So yeah,

557
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,439
Speaker 2: let'slet's dive in what exactly did they do physically. They're

558
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 2: at the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

559
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 3: So this is a culmination of some earlier protests, some

560
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 3: traveling protests, and when they arrive, when AIM arrives in

561
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 3: DC inside the Beltway, they take over the US Department

562
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 3: of the Interior building. This is the reason they do

563
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 3: it is because this is what houses the Bureau of

564
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 3: Indian Affairs. And they occupy it from November three to

565
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 3: November ninth, nineteen seventy two. In a peaceful way. Okay,

566
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 3: so they're not busting heads, they're not zip tie in

567
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 3: folks and you know, throwing around nooses and stuff like that.

568
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 2: But it's going to internal FBI memos. They are violent

569
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 2: and they stole a bunch of documents and broke a

570
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 2: bunch of stuff inside.

571
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 3: My god, my diary.

572
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 2: Well, just from the FBI's perspective, they're like, oh, this

573
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 2: is super violent and dangerous.

574
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they said, look, we'll leave this building after

575
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 3: the White House promises to address most of their concerns.

576
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 3: This is around the time they release something called the

577
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 3: twenty Points, which primarily addresses violations of other treaties or

578
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 3: previous treaties, and inner Agency Task Force is going to

579
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 3: be created. The Nixon administration works with them, They negotiate

580
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 3: with them, and they say, okay, we'll have some folks

581
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 3: from the Nixon administrations, representatives from the White House involved

582
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:56,439
Speaker 3: with you know what name the Indian activist organizations you want,

583
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 3: we will have them with us at the table. Everybody

584
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 3: will have a seat at the table. We're also going

585
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 3: to have more legislation offering more autonomy to tribes. But

586
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 3: that's not the end of the story, because folks, if

587
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,359
Speaker 3: you've listened this long, you know what kind of show

588
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 3: we are.

589
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we said that occupation ended on November ninth,

590
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two. On November eleventh, nineteen seventy two, there

591
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 2: was a memorandum sent within the FBI that identified the

592
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 2: American Indian movement as a dangerous threat and they were

593
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 2: now going to treat them as they had been treating

594
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 2: the Black Power movement and the other civil rights movements exactly.

595
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 2: And you can read these documents online. You can find them.

596
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 2: There's a great section where I'm just going to read

597
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 2: this really quickly, guys. This is an internal memo that

598
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,720
Speaker 2: was sent by W. Mark Felt, the acting Associate Director

599
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: of the FBI, to the special Agent in charge in Albany,

600
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 2: New York, and he said each Special Agent in charge

601
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 2: should have a survey conducted and following data should be

602
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:05,280
Speaker 2: furnished to headquarters. Approximate number of Indians residing within the division,

603
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 2: number of reservations, including the number of Indians residing therein,

604
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,879
Speaker 2: identity of tribes within the division, and identity of any

605
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:18,240
Speaker 2: known extremist organizations or extremist individuals active within the Indian community,

606
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 2: including the Bureau file number if any.

607
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 4: So this is just short of placing them on a

608
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 4: domestic terrorist watch list, right, essentially the same thing. It

609
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 4: is the same thing, Yeah, okay, And.

610
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 2: That's just a couple days after that occupation ended, and

611
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 2: I think it's because it was at the heart of DC.

612
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,399
Speaker 3: And you could smell it on the wind. Things were

613
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 3: turning violent. We're going to take a pause for a

614
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 3: word from our sponsors and then we'll get further into this, and.

615
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 4: We're back, guys really quickly. I'm sorry, no, I don't

616
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 4: want to get political here, but what happened on January sixth,

617
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 4: You know, with these folks that literally invaded you know,

618
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 4: government buildings and absolutely smashed stuff up and injured you know, personnel,

619
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 4: it feels like the reaction to this Native American protest

620
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:20,879
Speaker 4: in DC is treated much more harshly than those good

621
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,760
Speaker 4: white folks that smashed up you know, government property.

622
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 2: While that's a weird thing because that you know, you

623
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 2: read in the news there are people getting jail sentences

624
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 2: for their actions they took on that day.

625
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 4: Just continue divide. There's a divide. I guess it's more

626
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 4: rhetorical divide. So maybe maybe I'm overthinking it a little bit,

627
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 4: but I don't know. It's just it's it's weird.

628
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 2: I would just point to the actions specifically that the

629
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 2: FBI took back then in nineteen seventy two. One of

630
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 2: the primary ways that they wanted to get that information

631
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 2: that we referenced before the break in that memo was

632
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 2: to create informants within the movements. Like that was their

633
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 2: primary goal, get people who will snitch within the organization.

634
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,959
Speaker 2: It's the same thing they did with the Civil rights movement.

635
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 2: Think about what was his name, William O'Neil, who was

636
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 2: working like right next to Fred Hampton, and you know,

637
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 2: at least arguably caused Fred Hampton's death and then took

638
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 2: his own life. And there were you know, there are

639
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 2: other there are all kinds of infiltrations of groups like this,

640
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 2: And I'm sorry, I didn't mean to go down this

641
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 2: rabbit hole, y'all, but like, I don't even know how

642
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 2: I got here.

643
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 4: Oh, I dug, I dug the hole. I dug the

644
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 4: hole with the insurrectionist question.

645
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 3: First, I would also check out our earlier episode is

646
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:41,240
Speaker 3: the FBI Manufacturing Terrorist. That is a darkly hilarious story. Second,

647
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 3: can you guys catch me up January what what?

648
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 4: Well?

649
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if you guys saw that. There's

650
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 2: a viral song that came out about how nobody gives

651
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 2: an f about January sixth. It is very funny. You

652
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 2: should find it. I don't know what it's called. Who

653
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 2: the artist? Is very funny but and poignant actually, But

654
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 2: I was I was kind of going all of that

655
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 2: way to get to our exploration of the FBI and

656
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 2: other groups, infiltration of like white supremacist, white nationalist movements

657
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 2: and other movements like that, like far right extremists, just

658
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 2: like far left extremists. There was a great piece in

659
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 2: Rolling Stone recently about the work of agent Scott B.

660
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 2: And I'm doing that with quotation marks, who was an

661
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 2: actual FBI agent, not an informant, who went undercover for

662
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,399
Speaker 2: decades in a group in various groups like that, Neo

663
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 2: Nazi groups, white nationalist groups. I would say that that

664
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 2: kind of infiltration into groups that were probably present on

665
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 2: January sixth. Is one of the reasons why there's so

666
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:42,959
Speaker 2: much information that so many people are going to jail.

667
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 3: It's also one of the few I'll say it, I

668
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 3: should be careful about this, but it's also one of

669
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 3: the few viable human too operations that you can do now.

670
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 3: And the folks who are doing those of operations, just

671
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 3: to be clear, they are risking their lives. Actually you

672
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 3: could say they're losing their lives in some sense either way.

673
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 3: And you know, we have to remember that regardless of

674
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 3: what you may think personally about a given organization that

675
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 3: is being infiltrated in this way, the aim of those agents,

676
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,320
Speaker 3: or i should say the goal of those agents is

677
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 3: is anewable cause. They're hoping to save lives, and they're

678
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 3: usually when they move past monitoring to intervention, it's typically

679
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 3: in an effort to curtail a mass casualty event. Just

680
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 3: to be absolutely sometimes and sometimes you lose the way.

681
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 3: Mission creep is real, right, think.

682
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 2: About the infiltration of the SELC and and you know,

683
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 2: there are a lot of lives about.

684
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 3: The modern day to be I'm not talking about the

685
00:43:57,840 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 3: crazy racist go and tell prost.

686
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, I got you.

687
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,800
Speaker 2: No, I'm totally with you. I just I think about

688
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,439
Speaker 2: the stuff the alleged informants that were all around Martin

689
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:11,319
Speaker 2: Luther King Junior right towards the end of his life. Well,

690
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 2: there are some that are alleged that are known figures

691
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 2: that are not out as an informant right now, at

692
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 2: least in the zeitgeist.

693
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 3: Just got some sweet pundit and publishing deals.

694
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,479
Speaker 2: Well yeah, yeah, And we also think about we mentioned

695
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,399
Speaker 2: William O'Neil, who I'm sorry to derail us again, guys,

696
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 2: but if you think about the way that an informant

697
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,839
Speaker 2: can be created, if you think about William O'Neill, who

698
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 2: was eighteen years old and got caught driving a stolen

699
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 2: vehicle across state lines by an FBI agent and they

700
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 2: immediately swooped in, like when he's eighteen years old, and

701
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 2: they said, hey, you know, this can all go away.

702
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,399
Speaker 2: We'll even give you a little stipend every month if

703
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 2: you just tell us what's going on within your organization.

704
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,919
Speaker 2: And that's kind of how it can happen. And it's

705
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 2: for me that freaks me out. And when I'm thinking

706
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 2: about the American Indian Movement, and you know, as we're

707
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 2: moving through time here, just the potential for this that

708
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 2: kind of intervention, specifically by the FBI or by like

709
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 2: Homeland Security or some other group like that.

710
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 3: You want to leverage a problem because ultimately you want

711
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 3: to control an asset. It's okay to pay somebody, but

712
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 3: you can't really trust somebody if you're just paying them,

713
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 3: And it's tough to trust somebody just for ideology. So

714
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,839
Speaker 3: one thing the US and Russia have historically been very

715
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 3: successful about at domestically and abroad is stuff like honey traps,

716
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 3: stuff to where you get somebody to say yes to something,

717
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 3: and then you you normalize that and you expand that

718
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:50,959
Speaker 3: over to window of action right such to such such

719
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 3: that the asset, the mole, the informant, whomever, must always

720
00:45:55,719 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 3: play ball, because now the consequences for not playing ball

721
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 3: are far worse. Right, that's what you want to do.

722
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 3: You want to get your hooks in them, and it

723
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 3: happens around the world because it's a tremendously effective strategy.

724
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 3: So I think those are really good points. Earlier, we

725
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 3: were talking about how things turned violent in the case

726
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:23,879
Speaker 3: of the American Indian Movement to Uncle Sam post dc

727
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 3: as who pointed out even before DC to be honest

728
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 3: with you, AIM and similar Native American activist organizations have

729
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 3: moved from inconvenience to threat. Alcatraz was probably one of

730
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 3: the fulcrum points for that because it lasted for more

731
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 3: than a year. The US suppression of AIM throughout these

732
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 3: multiple protests, some of which were violent, like in the Dakotas,

733
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 3: they sowed the seeds for this. For this seventy one

734
00:46:56,080 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 3: day siege in February of nineteen seventy three, the AIM

735
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 3: leader at the time, Russell Means, and his organization took

736
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 3: over a small Native American community of wounded in South Dakota,

737
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 3: and they were protesting enormous local tensions right further discrimination

738
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:20,360
Speaker 3: against the Native population. FBI agents are immediately dispatched to

739
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 3: remove the occupiers. They cordon off the area, they refuse

740
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 3: to allow the press inside. There's a standoff, a siege really,

741
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,760
Speaker 3: that goes on for seventy one days. People are firing,

742
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:37,280
Speaker 3: there is live fire. All told, two Native American activists

743
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 3: are killed, fourteen or wounded, two g men, two FBI

744
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 3: agents are killed two or wounded. One guy disappeared, and

745
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 3: people still aren't sure what happened to him. His name

746
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,800
Speaker 3: is Ray Robinson, African American civil rights activist, you know,

747
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 3: is an ally for this cause. He's believed to have

748
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 3: been murdered. But I think even now, as we record

749
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty four, the question is still open, is

750
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:01,720
Speaker 3: that correct?

751
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 4: Yeah?

752
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 3: So altoll twelve hundred people are arrested at the conclusion

753
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 3: of this siege, including the Dennis Banks, whom we mentioned earlier,

754
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 3: co founder of AIM. The leaders get tried in a

755
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 3: court in Minnesota. The trial last eight months and they

756
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 3: get acquitted of everything, which is pretty unusual to be

757
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 3: quite honest, I'm sure there were many members of the

758
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 3: US public who are saying, hey, no, lock them up

759
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:33,760
Speaker 3: or whatever.

760
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,760
Speaker 2: Well, it's intense, especially considering four people died.

761
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's so much more of this story. These

762
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 3: events don't just echo the earlier events of the civil

763
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 3: rights movement. They also foreshadow government approaches to other standoffs,

764
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 3: you know. I mean the Waco disaster would be an example.

765
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:54,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think about Ruby Ridge too. I think

766
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 2: those are the two things that at least in America,

767
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 2: maybe we think about it from stuff we've learned in school,

768
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 2: but it is astonishing to imagine that this went on

769
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 2: for over seventy days, when something like Ruby Ridge went

770
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 2: on for only ten days. And I have never heard

771
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:15,240
Speaker 2: of this before, and there.

772
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 3: Is so much more for us to get to. In fact,

773
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 3: we earlier in the course of our mutual research, we

774
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:27,800
Speaker 3: made the decision to follow up with an episode entirely

775
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 3: about Leonard Peltier, who, as of July second, twenty twenty four,

776
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 3: was again denied parole. There's so much this story, It's

777
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 3: going to be another episode in the future.

778
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 2: Do you uner just give a mini background on who

779
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 2: that person is so people can look into it if

780
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 2: they want to and or wait for our episode.

781
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 1: Yeah.

782
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, So Leonard Peltier is alive, a member of the

783
00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 3: American Indian Movement was He is officially convince two counts

784
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 3: of homicide first degree murder of two federal agents, Ronald

785
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 3: Arthur Williams and Jack Ross Kohler, both special agents for

786
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 3: the FBI. His trials enormously controversial. A ton of the

787
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:22,319
Speaker 3: witness testimony is wonky. Allegations of conspiracy are as our

788
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:26,439
Speaker 3: pal Frank would say, wide rife. Yes, right. We also

789
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 3: know that many of the people who are involved in

790
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 3: his initial trial, who are involved in his conviction have

791
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 3: later renegged on their conclusions and believe that this was

792
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 3: a stitch up by the Feds.

793
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 1: Dude.

794
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 2: It reminds me there's so many connections here to the

795
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 2: American Indian movement and the civil rights movement. It reminds

796
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:53,360
Speaker 2: me of our interview with Mossy Secret his show Radical,

797
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 2: where we talked about himam Jamil Abdullah Almehan, who was

798
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 2: well was formerly known as h Rap Brown, a black

799
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 2: power activist who is accused of killing a police officer

800
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 2: right and has been in jail and is and has

801
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 2: been denied parole and all that stuff so many times.

802
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,800
Speaker 2: It's really interesting how close that connection is at what

803
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 2: important point for us to bring home? Folks, fell a

804
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 2: conspiracy realists. It's something you may deal with on this show.

805
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 2: It's something we deal with constantly. You don't have to

806
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 2: personally agree with someone's ideology or their aims or you know,

807
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 2: whatever their weird vision board is to clock when there

808
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 2: is a conspiracy afoot, you know what I mean? The

809
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 2: law should apply equally to all people, which should well,

810
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 2: and the allegations and thoughts of a potential conspiracy are

811
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:53,839
Speaker 2: not aided when the FBI is actively a conspiring conspiring

812
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:57,800
Speaker 2: yeah so, and they were doing the same thing with

813
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 2: the Islamic with various Islamic communities around the world, especially

814
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 2: if you think about the early two thousands.

815
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 4: I mean, just h it.

816
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 2: It really bothers me.

817
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:09,400
Speaker 1: Well.

818
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 2: The other thing we should note, by the way, is

819
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 2: that right after a lot of this stuff that we

820
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:17,160
Speaker 2: were talking about in nineteen seventy six, we were talking

821
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 2: about the infiltration of the American Indian Movement by the FBI.

822
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,759
Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy six, the Church Committee and the Pike

823
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 2: Committee both came back with their findings and they basically

824
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:31,920
Speaker 2: outlawed most of those activities, the autonomous spying on Americans

825
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 2: by the FBI, right like, just we do it on

826
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 2: our own and no oversight, nobody knows. And then that's

827
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 2: around the time when FISA courts come around and all

828
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 2: that stuff.

829
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 3: Which were great for the rubber stamped industry.

830
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:44,800
Speaker 2: Oh well yeah, they're also it's also great when you

831
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 2: create an entirely new department like the Department of Homeland Security,

832
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 2: which is still a dumb name, because now they can

833
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 2: just spy on people.

834
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, shout out to five eyes. Here's what we can

835
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:01,320
Speaker 3: tell you. If you want to learn more about Leonard Peltier,

836
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 3: an example in advance of our episode entirely about this story,

837
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 3: check out his memoir from nineteen ninety nine prison writings,

838
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 3: My Life is My Sun Dance. The American Indian Movement

839
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:17,320
Speaker 3: continues today. They've got a website, they've got a numbers

840
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:20,800
Speaker 3: of social media accounts. They ally with a lot of

841
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:24,960
Speaker 3: other protests and activist organizations. You learn more about them there.

842
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 3: The fight for regardless of how you feel about the

843
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 3: events of the past or protest pasting current, the fight

844
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 3: for rights of Native Americans is inherently it's the fight

845
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 3: that every American should agree with. It continues here in

846
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,320
Speaker 3: the United States as well as in Canada, and it

847
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 3: will continue because the consequences of the past themselves continue

848
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:54,240
Speaker 3: in the present day. I think we can all agree,

849
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 3: even in our divisive times. Pretty much every American knows

850
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,279
Speaker 3: the government harbors a lot of stuff they don't want

851
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:03,800
Speaker 3: you to know, and we'd love to hear your thoughts.

852
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 3: We try to be easy to find online.

853
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:08,800
Speaker 4: That's right. You can find us all over the internet

854
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,439
Speaker 4: at your hand little choice, starting with conspiracy stuff where

855
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 4: we exist on Facebook, where you can find our Facebook

856
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 4: group here's where it gets crazy on x FKA, Twitter

857
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 4: and on YouTube, or we have video content coming at

858
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 4: you on Instagram and TikTok. However, you can find it

859
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:25,919
Speaker 4: to the handle conspiracy Stuff Show. But wait, there's more.

860
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,279
Speaker 2: Yes, do you want to call us? Call one eight

861
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 2: three three std WYTK. That's our voicemail system. When you

862
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:37,319
Speaker 2: call in, you've got three minutes to say what you want.

863
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 2: Do please include a nickname for yourself and a little

864
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:42,839
Speaker 2: part of the message that says we can use your

865
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:45,799
Speaker 2: name and message on one of our listener mail episodes.

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Speaker 2: And that's really it. Those are the only rules. The

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Speaker 2: rest is yours to decide. Unless you've got more to

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Speaker 2: send us, or more than can fit in a three

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00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:57,879
Speaker 2: minute voicemail message one, instead send us a good old

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00:54:57,920 --> 00:54:58,800
Speaker 2: fashioned email.

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Speaker 3: We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence

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00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 3: we receive. Be well aware, but not frightened. The void

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00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 3: may respond of particular interest. Is a great conversation we've

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Speaker 3: been having about the idea of psychics in the Cold War,

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00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 3: the countermeasures that may or may not be applied. It's

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00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 3: a grand thought experiment. We can't wait for you to

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Speaker 3: be part of it stay tuned for that episode as well.

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Speaker 3: Conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

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Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

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00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:54,919
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.