WEBVTT - The Value of College

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of iHeart Podcasts.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to Math and Magic. I'm Bob Pittman. Over the years,

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<v Speaker 2>We've talked with dozens of leaders in industries from biotech

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<v Speaker 2>to banking, entertainment, advertising. I'm always trying to figure out

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<v Speaker 2>what makes them tick and how they got to where

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<v Speaker 2>they are today. Their twenties may be behind them, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's a time I'm always curious about, in part because

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<v Speaker 2>I myself, I'm a college dropout. Whether you go to

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<v Speaker 2>college or not, this time in our lives is often

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<v Speaker 2>filled with possibilities and the potential for self discovery. That's

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<v Speaker 2>what this bonus episode is all about. We'll hear how

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<v Speaker 2>the pathways our guests took in their twenties affected their

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<v Speaker 2>futures in unanticipated ways, and we'll get their thoughts on

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<v Speaker 2>the landscape of education and work experience today and how

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<v Speaker 2>to weigh what's most valuable. Let's start with David sot Them.

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<v Speaker 2>He's the perfect example of somebody who took advantage of

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<v Speaker 2>the wide range of opportunities college had to offer. Today.

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<v Speaker 2>He's the CEO of Goldman Sacks, but he didn't get

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<v Speaker 2>the training you might expect to rise to the top

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<v Speaker 2>of the leading firm and global investment banking. Here you

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<v Speaker 2>are CEO of Goldman Sachs. But you were a political

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<v Speaker 2>science major, correct, Yes, at a small liberal arts college,

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<v Speaker 2>Hamilton in rural New York. Not exactly what you would

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<v Speaker 2>think is the training ground for Goldman Sachs CEO. You

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<v Speaker 2>studied Shakespeare and even spent a month in London studying Shakespeare.

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<v Speaker 2>You've got no MBA, that is correct. You've got no

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<v Speaker 2>fancy business school.

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<v Speaker 3>That is correct.

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<v Speaker 2>So what is it about that kind of college education

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<v Speaker 2>that prepared you for this job and this career.

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<v Speaker 3>I've thought about it a lot recently, Bob, is that

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<v Speaker 3>how did I wind up here? Finance and Wall Street

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<v Speaker 3>has changed a lot over the course of the thirty

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<v Speaker 3>five plus years since I got out of college. I

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<v Speaker 3>got out of college in nineteen eighty four and Wall

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<v Speaker 3>Street was really just evolving, developing. The markets were very localized,

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<v Speaker 3>and I really stumbled into finance because I was coming

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<v Speaker 3>to New York while my college buddies were coming to

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<v Speaker 3>New York and I was looking for a job. There

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<v Speaker 3>wasn't a preset plan. And one of the things I

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<v Speaker 3>observed that is different today young people while they're studying

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<v Speaker 3>in college. They're so programmed to think they have to

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<v Speaker 3>have an answer, they have to have a plan. I

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<v Speaker 3>worked at a summer camp all through my college years. Finance,

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<v Speaker 3>like any other business, is about how people interact with people.

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<v Speaker 3>To be successful in finance, you can do it by

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<v Speaker 3>being a mathematician and being very quantitative and being very analytical.

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<v Speaker 3>But you can also do it by being very good

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<v Speaker 3>in connecting with people and giving advice and consulting and counseling.

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<v Speaker 3>I fell more into the latter category than the former.

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<v Speaker 2>David's story has stayed with me ever since we recorded it.

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<v Speaker 2>It reminds me that there's so many different training grounds

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<v Speaker 2>for success. Tim Castri's training started at a grocery store

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<v Speaker 2>in Melbourne, where he was working in lieu of going

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<v Speaker 2>to college. He went from stocking shelves at Safeway to

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<v Speaker 2>being offered an opportunity to train in their advertising department.

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<v Speaker 2>He worked hard, rose up the ranks, and eventually became

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<v Speaker 2>CEO of Australia's top advertising agency. Today, he's the VP

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<v Speaker 2>of Global Content and Media at Amazon, all without ever

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<v Speaker 2>getting a college degree. So I asked him what he

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<v Speaker 2>thinks about young people making career jumps like ours today.

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<v Speaker 2>So when you look at someone today and they didn't

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<v Speaker 2>go to college, do you go while I need to

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<v Speaker 2>give them a chance, they're gonna work harder, or do

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<v Speaker 2>you say you should go to college.

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<v Speaker 4>I have a very strong ethic around education, and I'm

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<v Speaker 4>quite adamant that my kids are going to go to college. Statistically,

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<v Speaker 4>you see where the outcomes are. I think the real

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<v Speaker 4>challenge we're dealing with at the moment is the amount

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<v Speaker 4>of debt that kids are coming out of school with,

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<v Speaker 4>and it's really questionable how valuable it is. So when

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<v Speaker 4>I think about my own kids, I want them to

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<v Speaker 4>go to college. But when I think about Group M

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<v Speaker 4>and what we're doing, we are increasingly looking at alternative

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<v Speaker 4>ways to get kids into jobs that don't require four

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<v Speaker 4>year degrees. There's a lot that happens in the world

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<v Speaker 4>of advertising and media that shouldn't require a four year degree,

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<v Speaker 4>and certainly no point in forcing kids and sattling kids

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<v Speaker 4>with all of that debt in order to get there.

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<v Speaker 4>So as we think about increasing the diversity at Group M,

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<v Speaker 4>how we think about those kind of entry level roles

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<v Speaker 4>is a big part of we think how we're going

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<v Speaker 4>to solve the longer term diversity challenges we're having in

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<v Speaker 4>the industry.

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<v Speaker 2>I agree with Tim, there should be more opportunities for

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<v Speaker 2>people without college degrees. Not having one is a bit

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<v Speaker 2>of a trend here at Mathemamagic. My great boss and

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<v Speaker 2>mentor at Warner Communications later time Warner, Steve Ross won

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<v Speaker 2>only for a couple of weeks when I was working

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<v Speaker 2>with him. I can remember the job posting came down

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<v Speaker 2>and it's said college degrees required for some low level jobs.

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<v Speaker 2>I called the HR department and asked, are you seeing

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<v Speaker 2>our CEO isn't qualified for the job. It was changed

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<v Speaker 2>to college degree preferred. Jeremy Zimmer is another Math and

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<v Speaker 2>Magic guest who reminds me that a college education and

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<v Speaker 2>a strong work ethic don't always go hand in hand.

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<v Speaker 2>Being a student was never Jeremy's strong suit, but when

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<v Speaker 2>he got a job in a talent agency mailroom, something

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<v Speaker 2>finally clicked. Today he's the CEO of United Talent Agency UTA.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, I was a straight F student in my

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<v Speaker 5>senior year at Santa Monica High School. I never thought

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<v Speaker 5>I could do hard work because I couldn't do school

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<v Speaker 5>work so early out in my career. I was afraid

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<v Speaker 5>of the hard work back then. It was really frightening

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<v Speaker 5>for me. When you dropped out of college. You were running,

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<v Speaker 5>as I understand, a valet parking station in Boston and

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<v Speaker 5>you actually got stabbed during an accunted robbery. Must be

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<v Speaker 5>incredibly traumatic. How did that change your outlook and or

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<v Speaker 5>your trajectory on life. I'm nineteen years old, I flunked

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<v Speaker 5>out of college. I've been stabbed. I have no vision, notion,

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<v Speaker 5>or anything of a future. I don't know what it's

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<v Speaker 5>going to be, and I don't know what can become

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<v Speaker 5>of me. And I was pretty you know, this is

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<v Speaker 5>not the script for a nice Jewish boy from a

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<v Speaker 5>good family. But what happened is my grandfather called me

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<v Speaker 5>and he said, well, you've really done a fine job

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<v Speaker 5>of screwing up your life. I'd like to help you.

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<v Speaker 5>Are you ready to get serious? And I said, I

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<v Speaker 5>don't know, I think I am. I want to try,

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<v Speaker 5>and he arranged for me to have an interview with

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<v Speaker 5>the William Morris Agency and something happened there. It was

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<v Speaker 5>an immediate feeling. I can still feel it today, this

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<v Speaker 5>feeling of comfort, and I understand how this works. I'm

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<v Speaker 5>going to be good at this, So tell us a

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<v Speaker 5>little bit about this. The way that the inner office

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<v Speaker 5>communication was done was through memos that were sent down

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<v Speaker 5>to the mailroom and copied, so you'd make one hundred

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<v Speaker 5>copies of a memo and then you distributed it around

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<v Speaker 5>the office by hand in these mail cards. So you

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<v Speaker 5>were literally at the center point of all the information.

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<v Speaker 5>And it was this very rich environment with a very

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<v Speaker 5>rich tradition. And the agents there knew that they were

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<v Speaker 5>supposed to try to provide you with some mentoring and

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<v Speaker 5>some guidance and some opperportunity. If I could just pay

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<v Speaker 5>attention and focus on a couple of things that I liked,

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<v Speaker 5>something good could happen.

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<v Speaker 2>How'd you get out of the mail room.

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<v Speaker 5>There was a young agent basically he was the movie department.

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<v Speaker 5>They were giving him his first assistant. And I went

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<v Speaker 5>to interview and I could see his chair was broken,

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<v Speaker 5>the ball bearings were loose, and the chare was sort

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<v Speaker 5>of awkwardly swiveling around. And I had my interview with him,

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<v Speaker 5>and then at lunch, I went into the storage thing

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<v Speaker 5>and I took a part a chair, took the ball

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<v Speaker 5>bearings out of that chair, went to his chair, fixed

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<v Speaker 5>his chair and left him a little note saying, hey,

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<v Speaker 5>I noticed your chair. I think I fixed it that

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<v Speaker 5>Thanks for the interview, and I got that job so

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<v Speaker 5>that Bearings began your career exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>More on Mathem Magic right after this quick break. Welcome

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<v Speaker 2>back to math and Magic. Remy Kent is the CMO

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<v Speaker 2>of Progressive Insurance Now. Over her career, she's been recognized

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<v Speaker 2>for accolades like advertising Weeks forty under forty, Reuters list

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<v Speaker 2>of Trailblazing Women, and been named to the one hundred

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<v Speaker 2>most Influential Black Leaders. When it came time for her

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<v Speaker 2>to go to college, she was sure of one thing

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<v Speaker 2>she wanted to be at an HBCU.

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<v Speaker 6>I really grew up and I felt like I had

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<v Speaker 6>a lot of experiences where I was the minority. I

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<v Speaker 6>mostly went to predominantly white schools, and I moved into

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<v Speaker 6>a neighborhood that was predominantly black right into high school,

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<v Speaker 6>and I realized that, you know, I felt like I

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<v Speaker 6>could use more of the black experience to be totally honest.

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<v Speaker 6>And so I think my parents thought I was going

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<v Speaker 6>to go to school at Duke or Emory, and I

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<v Speaker 6>really decided for myself that I wanted to HBCU, and

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<v Speaker 6>the way I chose Florida A and M University was

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<v Speaker 6>that my counselor at the time spoke very highly of

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<v Speaker 6>the business school, and I said, Okay, I'll go, and

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<v Speaker 6>it was close to home. It was four hours away,

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<v Speaker 6>and it felt like it was the right choice for

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<v Speaker 6>me to really immerse myself with people that looked like

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<v Speaker 6>me on a daily basis as I am matriculated. And

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<v Speaker 6>it's one of the best choices I've ever made.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a testament through his younger self that she knew

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<v Speaker 2>what would allow her to thrive. It could be hard

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<v Speaker 2>to know what's best for yourself, but figuring that out

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<v Speaker 2>is a crucial part of anyone's journey as a young person.

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<v Speaker 2>At least Charlemagne the God feels that way. He is

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<v Speaker 2>one of the most powerful figures in media, reaching millions

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<v Speaker 2>of years each week as the co host of the

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<v Speaker 2>nationally syndicated The Breakfast Club morning Show. He's a New

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<v Speaker 2>York Times bestselling author and an outspoken advocate for mental health.

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<v Speaker 2>And he didn't go to college naturally. Many young people

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<v Speaker 2>look up to him, but that doesn't mean he thinks

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<v Speaker 2>they should follow in his footsteps. So what advice do

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<v Speaker 2>you have for those people who want to be the

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<v Speaker 2>next to you?

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<v Speaker 7>That's where you fail. You fail by trying to be

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<v Speaker 7>the next anything. You should truly just be yourself.

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<v Speaker 6>Now.

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<v Speaker 7>It's great to be inspired, like I was inspired by

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<v Speaker 7>a lot of radio personalities, but I would have failed

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<v Speaker 7>tremendously trying to be any of them. The beauty of

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<v Speaker 7>life is that we are all blessed to be our

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<v Speaker 7>own individual, unique personalities. That's why our DNA is different

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<v Speaker 7>than everybody else. If you really tap into who you

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<v Speaker 7>are and your experiences and what you've been through, you

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<v Speaker 7>can deliver a story that people may can relate to,

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<v Speaker 7>but nobody else has been through. So I would never

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<v Speaker 7>tell you to want to be like me, because you

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<v Speaker 7>can't be like me because you haven't gone through what

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<v Speaker 7>I've gone through. You're not from where I'm from, You're

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<v Speaker 7>not me. Be yourself genuinely, be yourself, your true authentic self,

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<v Speaker 7>and I think that you will be AOKA and you'll

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<v Speaker 7>be a personality that people want to listen to.

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<v Speaker 2>You like a lot of guests on the show or

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<v Speaker 2>not a college graduate. By the way, I'm not either.

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<v Speaker 2>Any regrets that you didn't go to college.

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<v Speaker 7>No, it's difficult having that conversation with kids telling them

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<v Speaker 7>you didn't go to college, because once again, you're not me.

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<v Speaker 7>Lebron James didn't go to college, but you're not Lebron James,

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<v Speaker 7>like you gotta find I was lucky enough and blessed

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<v Speaker 7>enough to find my gifts in life early. And you know,

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<v Speaker 7>being that we live in a society, we living in

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<v Speaker 7>America where you can capitalize off your gifts, I was

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<v Speaker 7>able to do that. Everybody's not gonna be that lucky,

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<v Speaker 7>so are that blessed. I don't like the word of luck,

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<v Speaker 7>be that blessed. So I would tell you go to

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<v Speaker 7>school until you figure it out. It can't hurt, right

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<v Speaker 7>until you figure out what it is that you want

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<v Speaker 7>to do. It doesn't hurt to go to college. I'm

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<v Speaker 7>the exception, not the rule.

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<v Speaker 2>I appreciate that Charlemane encourages everybody to chart their own course,

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<v Speaker 2>and for many that might start with college. Whatever, and

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<v Speaker 2>you can acquire, you'll find ways to adapt it and

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<v Speaker 2>carry it with you in your career. Howard Mockler is

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<v Speaker 2>the CEO and co founder of Innovation Refunds. He didn't

0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:11.920
<v Speaker 2>go to college, but by building his experience as a

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<v Speaker 2>serial entrepreneur, it led him to a teaching position at Wharton.

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<v Speaker 8>Ultimately, at thirteen, I started my first computer business. I

0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:25.400
<v Speaker 8>was doing about one hundred thousand dollars a month in

0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:29.440
<v Speaker 8>sales by the time I was fifteen, and I ended

0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:33.320
<v Speaker 8>up moving to California. I actually got out of high

0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:36.160
<v Speaker 8>school early. I think, like I don't know, maybe like

0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:40.479
<v Speaker 8>a lot of entrepreneurs, got out, took some college classes

0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:45.319
<v Speaker 8>that interested me, and started my second or third company

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<v Speaker 8>by then.

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<v Speaker 2>So were you a good student?

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<v Speaker 8>I was a good student when I enjoyed learning, and

0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:56.040
<v Speaker 8>then I got bored of learning in school and I

0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:58.839
<v Speaker 8>was no longer a good student. I wanted to learn

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<v Speaker 8>in business.

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<v Speaker 2>So let's talk about college. Did you go to college? Nope?

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<v Speaker 2>And ever have a desire to go to college.

0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:09.320
<v Speaker 8>I spent fifteen years teaching a day class at Wharton.

0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:13.000
<v Speaker 8>I think college is really about teaching you how to learn.

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<v Speaker 8>And if you're an entrepreneur, you probably figured that out.

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<v Speaker 2>Why did you want to teach and what did you

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<v Speaker 2>get out of teaching?

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<v Speaker 8>Well? I love giving back and that program was part

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<v Speaker 8>of a program that was designed by Wharton and the

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<v Speaker 8>Trade association that represents shopping centers called the International Council

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<v Speaker 8>of Shopping Centers, and it gave me an opportunity to

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<v Speaker 8>teach to folks that were in the retail shopping center

0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:49.920
<v Speaker 8>industry to really perform better. My second business that lasted

0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:53.600
<v Speaker 8>for fifteen years was the largest company that disposed of

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<v Speaker 8>surplus real estate for retailers. So whenever Walgreens or CBS

0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:02.320
<v Speaker 8>or Kroger or a would close the store, we would

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<v Speaker 8>represent them and find a solution for that real estate.

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<v Speaker 8>And I found that I was able to mentor a

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<v Speaker 8>lot of young people that were coming into the retail

0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:17.560
<v Speaker 8>real estate industry, and for literally a decade plus, I

0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:20.760
<v Speaker 8>would bump into these people and they would share how

0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:24.880
<v Speaker 8>much they received out of this class. And I always

0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:29.480
<v Speaker 8>tried to have tangible takeaways from the class. So I

0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:31.680
<v Speaker 8>really didn't want the class to just be where you

0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:35.800
<v Speaker 8>attend and then you don't find anything usable. And when

0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:39.400
<v Speaker 8>I received feedback over the years of how helpful that

0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:41.640
<v Speaker 8>was to people, it really inspired me.

0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:42.120
<v Speaker 7>To do more.

0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:46.960
<v Speaker 2>Howard reminds me that whatever your path looked like as

0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:50.000
<v Speaker 2>a young person, once you figured out a formula for success,

0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:53.080
<v Speaker 2>there's always something you can offer to young people trying

0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:56.440
<v Speaker 2>to find their own way Today, I'm Bob Pittman. Thanks

0:14:56.440 --> 0:14:57.880
<v Speaker 2>for listening to Math and Magic.

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<v Speaker 1>That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening

0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:10.200
<v Speaker 1>to Math and Magic. A production of iHeart Podcasts. The

0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:13.760
<v Speaker 1>show is created and hosted by Bob Pittman. Special thanks

0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:16.920
<v Speaker 1>to Sidney Rosenblut for booking and wrangling our wonderful talent,

0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:19.760
<v Speaker 1>which is no small feat. The Math and Magic team

0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:23.920
<v Speaker 1>is Jessica Crimechich and Baheed Fraser. Our executive producers are

0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:26.880
<v Speaker 1>Ali Perry and Nikki Etoor. Until next time,