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Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of iHeart Podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Math and Magic. I'm Bob Pittman. Over the years,

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Speaker 2: We've talked with dozens of leaders in industries from biotech

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Speaker 2: to banking, entertainment, advertising. I'm always trying to figure out

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Speaker 2: what makes them tick and how they got to where

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Speaker 2: they are today. Their twenties may be behind them, but

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Speaker 2: it's a time I'm always curious about, in part because

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Speaker 2: I myself, I'm a college dropout. Whether you go to

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Speaker 2: college or not, this time in our lives is often

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Speaker 2: filled with possibilities and the potential for self discovery. That's

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Speaker 2: what this bonus episode is all about. We'll hear how

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Speaker 2: the pathways our guests took in their twenties affected their

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Speaker 2: futures in unanticipated ways, and we'll get their thoughts on

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Speaker 2: the landscape of education and work experience today and how

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Speaker 2: to weigh what's most valuable. Let's start with David sot Them.

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Speaker 2: He's the perfect example of somebody who took advantage of

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Speaker 2: the wide range of opportunities college had to offer. Today.

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Speaker 2: He's the CEO of Goldman Sacks, but he didn't get

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Speaker 2: the training you might expect to rise to the top

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Speaker 2: of the leading firm and global investment banking. Here you

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Speaker 2: are CEO of Goldman Sachs. But you were a political

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Speaker 2: science major, correct, Yes, at a small liberal arts college,

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Speaker 2: Hamilton in rural New York. Not exactly what you would

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Speaker 2: think is the training ground for Goldman Sachs CEO. You

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Speaker 2: studied Shakespeare and even spent a month in London studying Shakespeare.

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Speaker 2: You've got no MBA, that is correct. You've got no

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Speaker 2: fancy business school.

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Speaker 3: That is correct.

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Speaker 2: So what is it about that kind of college education

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Speaker 2: that prepared you for this job and this career.

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Speaker 3: I've thought about it a lot recently, Bob, is that

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Speaker 3: how did I wind up here? Finance and Wall Street

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Speaker 3: has changed a lot over the course of the thirty

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Speaker 3: five plus years since I got out of college. I

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Speaker 3: got out of college in nineteen eighty four and Wall

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Speaker 3: Street was really just evolving, developing. The markets were very localized,

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Speaker 3: and I really stumbled into finance because I was coming

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Speaker 3: to New York while my college buddies were coming to

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Speaker 3: New York and I was looking for a job. There

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Speaker 3: wasn't a preset plan. And one of the things I

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Speaker 3: observed that is different today young people while they're studying

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Speaker 3: in college. They're so programmed to think they have to

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Speaker 3: have an answer, they have to have a plan. I

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Speaker 3: worked at a summer camp all through my college years. Finance,

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Speaker 3: like any other business, is about how people interact with people.

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Speaker 3: To be successful in finance, you can do it by

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Speaker 3: being a mathematician and being very quantitative and being very analytical.

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Speaker 3: But you can also do it by being very good

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Speaker 3: in connecting with people and giving advice and consulting and counseling.

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Speaker 3: I fell more into the latter category than the former.

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Speaker 2: David's story has stayed with me ever since we recorded it.

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Speaker 2: It reminds me that there's so many different training grounds

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Speaker 2: for success. Tim Castri's training started at a grocery store

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Speaker 2: in Melbourne, where he was working in lieu of going

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Speaker 2: to college. He went from stocking shelves at Safeway to

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Speaker 2: being offered an opportunity to train in their advertising department.

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Speaker 2: He worked hard, rose up the ranks, and eventually became

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Speaker 2: CEO of Australia's top advertising agency. Today, he's the VP

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Speaker 2: of Global Content and Media at Amazon, all without ever

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Speaker 2: getting a college degree. So I asked him what he

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Speaker 2: thinks about young people making career jumps like ours today.

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Speaker 2: So when you look at someone today and they didn't

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Speaker 2: go to college, do you go while I need to

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Speaker 2: give them a chance, they're gonna work harder, or do

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Speaker 2: you say you should go to college.

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Speaker 4: I have a very strong ethic around education, and I'm

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Speaker 4: quite adamant that my kids are going to go to college. Statistically,

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Speaker 4: you see where the outcomes are. I think the real

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Speaker 4: challenge we're dealing with at the moment is the amount

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Speaker 4: of debt that kids are coming out of school with,

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Speaker 4: and it's really questionable how valuable it is. So when

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Speaker 4: I think about my own kids, I want them to

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Speaker 4: go to college. But when I think about Group M

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Speaker 4: and what we're doing, we are increasingly looking at alternative

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Speaker 4: ways to get kids into jobs that don't require four

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Speaker 4: year degrees. There's a lot that happens in the world

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Speaker 4: of advertising and media that shouldn't require a four year degree,

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Speaker 4: and certainly no point in forcing kids and sattling kids

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Speaker 4: with all of that debt in order to get there.

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Speaker 4: So as we think about increasing the diversity at Group M,

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Speaker 4: how we think about those kind of entry level roles

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Speaker 4: is a big part of we think how we're going

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Speaker 4: to solve the longer term diversity challenges we're having in

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Speaker 4: the industry.

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Speaker 2: I agree with Tim, there should be more opportunities for

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Speaker 2: people without college degrees. Not having one is a bit

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Speaker 2: of a trend here at Mathemamagic. My great boss and

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Speaker 2: mentor at Warner Communications later time Warner, Steve Ross won

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Speaker 2: only for a couple of weeks when I was working

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Speaker 2: with him. I can remember the job posting came down

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Speaker 2: and it's said college degrees required for some low level jobs.

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Speaker 2: I called the HR department and asked, are you seeing

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Speaker 2: our CEO isn't qualified for the job. It was changed

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Speaker 2: to college degree preferred. Jeremy Zimmer is another Math and

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Speaker 2: Magic guest who reminds me that a college education and

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Speaker 2: a strong work ethic don't always go hand in hand.

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Speaker 2: Being a student was never Jeremy's strong suit, but when

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Speaker 2: he got a job in a talent agency mailroom, something

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Speaker 2: finally clicked. Today he's the CEO of United Talent Agency UTA.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I was a straight F student in my

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Speaker 5: senior year at Santa Monica High School. I never thought

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Speaker 5: I could do hard work because I couldn't do school

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Speaker 5: work so early out in my career. I was afraid

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Speaker 5: of the hard work back then. It was really frightening

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Speaker 5: for me. When you dropped out of college. You were running,

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Speaker 5: as I understand, a valet parking station in Boston and

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Speaker 5: you actually got stabbed during an accunted robbery. Must be

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Speaker 5: incredibly traumatic. How did that change your outlook and or

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Speaker 5: your trajectory on life. I'm nineteen years old, I flunked

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Speaker 5: out of college. I've been stabbed. I have no vision, notion,

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Speaker 5: or anything of a future. I don't know what it's

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Speaker 5: going to be, and I don't know what can become

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Speaker 5: of me. And I was pretty you know, this is

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Speaker 5: not the script for a nice Jewish boy from a

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Speaker 5: good family. But what happened is my grandfather called me

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Speaker 5: and he said, well, you've really done a fine job

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Speaker 5: of screwing up your life. I'd like to help you.

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Speaker 5: Are you ready to get serious? And I said, I

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Speaker 5: don't know, I think I am. I want to try,

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Speaker 5: and he arranged for me to have an interview with

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Speaker 5: the William Morris Agency and something happened there. It was

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Speaker 5: an immediate feeling. I can still feel it today, this

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Speaker 5: feeling of comfort, and I understand how this works. I'm

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Speaker 5: going to be good at this, So tell us a

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Speaker 5: little bit about this. The way that the inner office

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Speaker 5: communication was done was through memos that were sent down

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Speaker 5: to the mailroom and copied, so you'd make one hundred

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Speaker 5: copies of a memo and then you distributed it around

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Speaker 5: the office by hand in these mail cards. So you

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Speaker 5: were literally at the center point of all the information.

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Speaker 5: And it was this very rich environment with a very

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Speaker 5: rich tradition. And the agents there knew that they were

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Speaker 5: supposed to try to provide you with some mentoring and

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Speaker 5: some guidance and some opperportunity. If I could just pay

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Speaker 5: attention and focus on a couple of things that I liked,

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Speaker 5: something good could happen.

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Speaker 2: How'd you get out of the mail room.

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Speaker 5: There was a young agent basically he was the movie department.

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Speaker 5: They were giving him his first assistant. And I went

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Speaker 5: to interview and I could see his chair was broken,

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Speaker 5: the ball bearings were loose, and the chare was sort

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Speaker 5: of awkwardly swiveling around. And I had my interview with him,

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Speaker 5: and then at lunch, I went into the storage thing

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Speaker 5: and I took a part a chair, took the ball

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Speaker 5: bearings out of that chair, went to his chair, fixed

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Speaker 5: his chair and left him a little note saying, hey,

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Speaker 5: I noticed your chair. I think I fixed it that

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Speaker 5: Thanks for the interview, and I got that job so

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Speaker 5: that Bearings began your career exactly.

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Speaker 2: More on Mathem Magic right after this quick break. Welcome

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Speaker 2: back to math and Magic. Remy Kent is the CMO

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Speaker 2: of Progressive Insurance Now. Over her career, she's been recognized

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Speaker 2: for accolades like advertising Weeks forty under forty, Reuters list

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Speaker 2: of Trailblazing Women, and been named to the one hundred

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Speaker 2: most Influential Black Leaders. When it came time for her

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Speaker 2: to go to college, she was sure of one thing

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Speaker 2: she wanted to be at an HBCU.

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Speaker 6: I really grew up and I felt like I had

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Speaker 6: a lot of experiences where I was the minority. I

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Speaker 6: mostly went to predominantly white schools, and I moved into

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Speaker 6: a neighborhood that was predominantly black right into high school,

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Speaker 6: and I realized that, you know, I felt like I

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Speaker 6: could use more of the black experience to be totally honest.

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Speaker 6: And so I think my parents thought I was going

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Speaker 6: to go to school at Duke or Emory, and I

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Speaker 6: really decided for myself that I wanted to HBCU, and

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Speaker 6: the way I chose Florida A and M University was

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Speaker 6: that my counselor at the time spoke very highly of

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Speaker 6: the business school, and I said, Okay, I'll go, and

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Speaker 6: it was close to home. It was four hours away,

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Speaker 6: and it felt like it was the right choice for

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Speaker 6: me to really immerse myself with people that looked like

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Speaker 6: me on a daily basis as I am matriculated. And

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Speaker 6: it's one of the best choices I've ever made.

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Speaker 2: It's a testament through his younger self that she knew

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Speaker 2: what would allow her to thrive. It could be hard

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Speaker 2: to know what's best for yourself, but figuring that out

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Speaker 2: is a crucial part of anyone's journey as a young person.

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Speaker 2: At least Charlemagne the God feels that way. He is

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Speaker 2: one of the most powerful figures in media, reaching millions

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Speaker 2: of years each week as the co host of the

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Speaker 2: nationally syndicated The Breakfast Club morning Show. He's a New

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Speaker 2: York Times bestselling author and an outspoken advocate for mental health.

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Speaker 2: And he didn't go to college naturally. Many young people

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Speaker 2: look up to him, but that doesn't mean he thinks

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Speaker 2: they should follow in his footsteps. So what advice do

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Speaker 2: you have for those people who want to be the

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Speaker 2: next to you?

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Speaker 7: That's where you fail. You fail by trying to be

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Speaker 7: the next anything. You should truly just be yourself.

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Speaker 6: Now.

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Speaker 7: It's great to be inspired, like I was inspired by

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Speaker 7: a lot of radio personalities, but I would have failed

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Speaker 7: tremendously trying to be any of them. The beauty of

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Speaker 7: life is that we are all blessed to be our

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Speaker 7: own individual, unique personalities. That's why our DNA is different

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Speaker 7: than everybody else. If you really tap into who you

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Speaker 7: are and your experiences and what you've been through, you

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Speaker 7: can deliver a story that people may can relate to,

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Speaker 7: but nobody else has been through. So I would never

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Speaker 7: tell you to want to be like me, because you

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Speaker 7: can't be like me because you haven't gone through what

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Speaker 7: I've gone through. You're not from where I'm from, You're

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Speaker 7: not me. Be yourself genuinely, be yourself, your true authentic self,

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Speaker 7: and I think that you will be AOKA and you'll

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Speaker 7: be a personality that people want to listen to.

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Speaker 2: You like a lot of guests on the show or

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Speaker 2: not a college graduate. By the way, I'm not either.

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Speaker 2: Any regrets that you didn't go to college.

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Speaker 7: No, it's difficult having that conversation with kids telling them

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Speaker 7: you didn't go to college, because once again, you're not me.

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Speaker 7: Lebron James didn't go to college, but you're not Lebron James,

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Speaker 7: like you gotta find I was lucky enough and blessed

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Speaker 7: enough to find my gifts in life early. And you know,

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Speaker 7: being that we live in a society, we living in

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Speaker 7: America where you can capitalize off your gifts, I was

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Speaker 7: able to do that. Everybody's not gonna be that lucky,

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Speaker 7: so are that blessed. I don't like the word of luck,

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Speaker 7: be that blessed. So I would tell you go to

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Speaker 7: school until you figure it out. It can't hurt, right

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Speaker 7: until you figure out what it is that you want

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Speaker 7: to do. It doesn't hurt to go to college. I'm

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Speaker 7: the exception, not the rule.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate that Charlemane encourages everybody to chart their own course,

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Speaker 2: and for many that might start with college. Whatever, and

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Speaker 2: you can acquire, you'll find ways to adapt it and

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Speaker 2: carry it with you in your career. Howard Mockler is

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Speaker 2: the CEO and co founder of Innovation Refunds. He didn't

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Speaker 2: go to college, but by building his experience as a

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Speaker 2: serial entrepreneur, it led him to a teaching position at Wharton.

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Speaker 8: Ultimately, at thirteen, I started my first computer business. I

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Speaker 8: was doing about one hundred thousand dollars a month in

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Speaker 8: sales by the time I was fifteen, and I ended

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Speaker 8: up moving to California. I actually got out of high

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Speaker 8: school early. I think, like I don't know, maybe like

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Speaker 8: a lot of entrepreneurs, got out, took some college classes

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Speaker 8: that interested me, and started my second or third company

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Speaker 8: by then.

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Speaker 2: So were you a good student?

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Speaker 8: I was a good student when I enjoyed learning, and

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Speaker 8: then I got bored of learning in school and I

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Speaker 8: was no longer a good student. I wanted to learn

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Speaker 8: in business.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about college. Did you go to college? Nope?

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Speaker 2: And ever have a desire to go to college.

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Speaker 8: I spent fifteen years teaching a day class at Wharton.

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Speaker 8: I think college is really about teaching you how to learn.

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Speaker 8: And if you're an entrepreneur, you probably figured that out.

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Speaker 2: Why did you want to teach and what did you

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Speaker 2: get out of teaching?

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Speaker 8: Well? I love giving back and that program was part

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Speaker 8: of a program that was designed by Wharton and the

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Speaker 8: Trade association that represents shopping centers called the International Council

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Speaker 8: of Shopping Centers, and it gave me an opportunity to

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Speaker 8: teach to folks that were in the retail shopping center

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Speaker 8: industry to really perform better. My second business that lasted

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Speaker 8: for fifteen years was the largest company that disposed of

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Speaker 8: surplus real estate for retailers. So whenever Walgreens or CBS

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Speaker 8: or Kroger or a would close the store, we would

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Speaker 8: represent them and find a solution for that real estate.

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Speaker 8: And I found that I was able to mentor a

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Speaker 8: lot of young people that were coming into the retail

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Speaker 8: real estate industry, and for literally a decade plus, I

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Speaker 8: would bump into these people and they would share how

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Speaker 8: much they received out of this class. And I always

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Speaker 8: tried to have tangible takeaways from the class. So I

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Speaker 8: really didn't want the class to just be where you

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Speaker 8: attend and then you don't find anything usable. And when

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Speaker 8: I received feedback over the years of how helpful that

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Speaker 8: was to people, it really inspired me.

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Speaker 7: To do more.

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Speaker 2: Howard reminds me that whatever your path looked like as

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Speaker 2: a young person, once you figured out a formula for success,

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Speaker 2: there's always something you can offer to young people trying

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Speaker 2: to find their own way Today, I'm Bob Pittman. Thanks

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Speaker 2: for listening to Math and Magic.

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Speaker 1: That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening

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Speaker 1: to Math and Magic. A production of iHeart Podcasts. The

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Speaker 1: show is created and hosted by Bob Pittman. Special thanks

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Speaker 1: to Sidney Rosenblut for booking and wrangling our wonderful talent,

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Speaker 1: which is no small feat. The Math and Magic team

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Speaker 1: is Jessica Crimechich and Baheed Fraser. Our executive producers are

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Speaker 1: Ali Perry and Nikki Etoor. Until next time,