1 00:00:14,996 --> 00:00:15,436 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:30,676 --> 00:00:34,356 Speaker 2: If I followed this path that my father had laid 3 00:00:34,356 --> 00:00:38,716 Speaker 2: out for me, I would be a woman who didn't 4 00:00:38,716 --> 00:00:42,116 Speaker 2: follow her own dreams and desires, didn't follow her own passions, 5 00:00:42,356 --> 00:00:47,356 Speaker 2: didn't live for herself, and was relegated to this sort 6 00:00:47,356 --> 00:00:52,476 Speaker 2: of bent and broken place of silence, of only domesticity. 7 00:00:53,636 --> 00:00:56,676 Speaker 1: Sophia Sinclair is a writer and poet who grew up 8 00:00:56,676 --> 00:00:59,836 Speaker 1: in a Rastafari family. Her father was the head of 9 00:00:59,876 --> 00:01:02,876 Speaker 1: the household, and he made Sophia and her siblings follow 10 00:01:02,916 --> 00:01:07,676 Speaker 1: a strict interpretation of Rastafari. But as Sophia grew older, 11 00:01:07,956 --> 00:01:11,236 Speaker 1: living under her father's rules became suffocating. 12 00:01:11,316 --> 00:01:15,716 Speaker 2: And I thought, no, that's not the future that I 13 00:01:15,796 --> 00:01:18,436 Speaker 2: want for myself. And I want to decide for myself 14 00:01:18,436 --> 00:01:21,956 Speaker 2: the woman that I am going to be, and so 15 00:01:22,156 --> 00:01:26,436 Speaker 2: I need to cut this future completely out of me 16 00:01:26,596 --> 00:01:28,516 Speaker 2: and out of my life entirely. 17 00:01:33,316 --> 00:01:39,876 Speaker 1: On today's show, Breaking Free from your family's beliefs, I'm 18 00:01:39,916 --> 00:01:42,636 Speaker 1: Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 19 00:01:42,996 --> 00:01:45,276 Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become 20 00:01:45,556 --> 00:02:00,316 Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. Sophia grew up 21 00:02:00,316 --> 00:02:03,276 Speaker 1: in a small fishing village on the north coast of Jamaica. 22 00:02:04,156 --> 00:02:07,716 Speaker 1: The village belonged to her mom's family, and Sophia's dad 23 00:02:07,956 --> 00:02:11,196 Speaker 1: never quite felt like he along there. He was part 24 00:02:11,276 --> 00:02:15,636 Speaker 1: of a radical sect of Rastafari, a religious and social movement. 25 00:02:16,596 --> 00:02:19,756 Speaker 1: In that sect, the main tenant was to maintain purity, 26 00:02:20,316 --> 00:02:24,116 Speaker 1: to keep your mind and body clean. This meant avoiding 27 00:02:24,196 --> 00:02:29,636 Speaker 1: any influences from Babylon, the world outside of Rastafari, which 28 00:02:29,716 --> 00:02:34,236 Speaker 1: was seen as evil and corrupt. Sophia's dad worried that 29 00:02:34,356 --> 00:02:37,076 Speaker 1: keeping his family in the village would hurt their purity. 30 00:02:37,796 --> 00:02:40,996 Speaker 1: Sophia and her siblings would be exposed to their maternal aunts, 31 00:02:41,036 --> 00:02:44,716 Speaker 1: for example, who did things like eat meat, drink alcohol, 32 00:02:44,956 --> 00:02:49,036 Speaker 1: wear makeup, and go out dancing. And so when Sophia 33 00:02:49,196 --> 00:02:52,516 Speaker 1: was five, her dad moved their family to the countryside. 34 00:02:53,156 --> 00:02:57,556 Speaker 2: We left the seaside, and suddenly the rules were coming 35 00:02:58,076 --> 00:03:01,636 Speaker 2: fast at me, and you know, which involved like growing 36 00:03:01,716 --> 00:03:04,916 Speaker 2: the dreadlocks. And then also when I was nine years old, 37 00:03:04,956 --> 00:03:08,636 Speaker 2: my father said, you can't climb trees anymore, you will 38 00:03:08,676 --> 00:03:12,356 Speaker 2: never ride a bicycle, you cannot wear jeans, you can't 39 00:03:12,356 --> 00:03:16,516 Speaker 2: wear pants, you can't wear shorts. And so that's why 40 00:03:16,516 --> 00:03:19,196 Speaker 2: I began to question everything, because I was like wait, 41 00:03:19,836 --> 00:03:23,436 Speaker 2: I'm not quite sure where these rules are coming from. 42 00:03:23,556 --> 00:03:26,676 Speaker 2: And a lot of them weren't placed on my brother. 43 00:03:26,756 --> 00:03:29,196 Speaker 2: He could still climb the trees and ride his bicycle 44 00:03:29,236 --> 00:03:32,236 Speaker 2: and all of this. And so I did question, and 45 00:03:32,276 --> 00:03:34,396 Speaker 2: the answer was always, don't question me, just do what 46 00:03:34,476 --> 00:03:34,996 Speaker 2: I say. 47 00:03:36,076 --> 00:03:40,436 Speaker 1: You mentioned these extreme restrictions, right, I mean, there were 48 00:03:40,476 --> 00:03:44,156 Speaker 1: so many limitations placed on you. What was your understanding 49 00:03:44,276 --> 00:03:48,716 Speaker 1: of the expectations of a Rastafari woman. What was the 50 00:03:48,756 --> 00:03:51,716 Speaker 1: future that you were forced to envision for yourself within 51 00:03:51,756 --> 00:03:52,596 Speaker 1: these confines. 52 00:03:53,796 --> 00:03:56,716 Speaker 2: Well, for a long time, I didn't have a good 53 00:03:56,956 --> 00:04:00,756 Speaker 2: understanding of what was expected of me. The rest of 54 00:04:00,836 --> 00:04:08,076 Speaker 2: Fari movement itself doesn't have one unifying principle or core tenet. 55 00:04:08,116 --> 00:04:11,956 Speaker 2: There is no kind of biblical equivalent for Rastafari. There's 56 00:04:11,996 --> 00:04:16,436 Speaker 2: no Holy Book, and most Rastafari households, the idea was 57 00:04:16,516 --> 00:04:21,996 Speaker 2: that the Rasta brethren was kind of God had figured 58 00:04:22,036 --> 00:04:26,596 Speaker 2: in the household. Each Rasta brethren really got to interpret 59 00:04:26,636 --> 00:04:29,316 Speaker 2: and create the rules for himself in his own household. 60 00:04:29,356 --> 00:04:32,676 Speaker 2: And that's what my household was like. My father just 61 00:04:32,716 --> 00:04:36,756 Speaker 2: said these are the rules and you must follow them. 62 00:04:36,956 --> 00:04:40,836 Speaker 2: So that kind of set the tone for what growing 63 00:04:40,916 --> 00:04:46,196 Speaker 2: up was like, and so silence was something that was seen, 64 00:04:46,316 --> 00:04:51,636 Speaker 2: especially for women, as something that made you virtuous. And 65 00:04:51,676 --> 00:04:55,116 Speaker 2: then you know, for women, there were also certain rules 66 00:04:55,156 --> 00:04:59,076 Speaker 2: that weren't necessarily given to the men. For example, there 67 00:04:59,076 --> 00:05:02,516 Speaker 2: were rules about the modesty of dress for women. So 68 00:05:02,556 --> 00:05:05,356 Speaker 2: for the women of Rastafari, you know, they had to 69 00:05:05,396 --> 00:05:08,316 Speaker 2: cover their arms and legs, cover their knees. Some women 70 00:05:08,356 --> 00:05:14,556 Speaker 2: covered their hair. And there was a moment where we there, 71 00:05:14,596 --> 00:05:17,956 Speaker 2: it was a gathering of the rass of community and 72 00:05:19,716 --> 00:05:23,116 Speaker 2: I just remember observing, and I was maybe eight years old. 73 00:05:23,596 --> 00:05:27,876 Speaker 2: I remember observing. All the women were inside in the kitchen. 74 00:05:27,956 --> 00:05:31,636 Speaker 2: They had multiple children kind of grabbing onto their you know, arms, legs, 75 00:05:31,676 --> 00:05:35,396 Speaker 2: their hems. They were making the food and they would 76 00:05:35,436 --> 00:05:37,876 Speaker 2: bring the food outside to the men. And the men 77 00:05:37,956 --> 00:05:41,796 Speaker 2: were all sitting outside talking. But the rastafar I call 78 00:05:41,876 --> 00:05:44,276 Speaker 2: it reasoning right, which was like a big part of 79 00:05:44,316 --> 00:05:46,556 Speaker 2: their community in a way that they passed down the 80 00:05:46,676 --> 00:05:50,996 Speaker 2: oral wisdom and tenets of Rastafari, which was asking questions 81 00:05:51,036 --> 00:05:54,276 Speaker 2: about the man's place in the universe. And they talked 82 00:05:54,276 --> 00:05:58,436 Speaker 2: about philosophy and politics and so on, and you know, 83 00:05:58,476 --> 00:06:03,716 Speaker 2: a lot of existential conversations happening. And I remember looking 84 00:06:03,756 --> 00:06:07,116 Speaker 2: at the men or the bredren sitting there and having 85 00:06:07,156 --> 00:06:10,236 Speaker 2: these conversations and reasoning, and ever so often they would 86 00:06:10,236 --> 00:06:12,316 Speaker 2: call the young boys over like, come and listen, Come 87 00:06:12,316 --> 00:06:15,756 Speaker 2: and listen to this wisdom. I remember being so jealous, like, 88 00:06:15,796 --> 00:06:19,316 Speaker 2: why can't I get the wisdom in the reasoning? And 89 00:06:19,636 --> 00:06:22,236 Speaker 2: you know, and then seeing the women were so preoccupied 90 00:06:22,316 --> 00:06:24,356 Speaker 2: with making the food and bringing the food to the 91 00:06:24,396 --> 00:06:28,116 Speaker 2: men that they didn't have a chance to have existential, 92 00:06:29,236 --> 00:06:31,436 Speaker 2: you know, conversations with each other. 93 00:06:32,836 --> 00:06:35,596 Speaker 1: You're like, I'm smart, I'm capable. What's going on? 94 00:06:36,036 --> 00:06:39,116 Speaker 2: Yeah? And I remember that being one of the first 95 00:06:39,156 --> 00:06:43,956 Speaker 2: times that I thought, Wait, is this the future that 96 00:06:45,436 --> 00:06:47,156 Speaker 2: my father is laying out for me? 97 00:06:48,356 --> 00:06:48,556 Speaker 3: You know? 98 00:06:48,836 --> 00:06:52,276 Speaker 2: Is this if I continue down this path, is this 99 00:06:52,356 --> 00:06:56,836 Speaker 2: where I'm going to be? You know, a woman relegated 100 00:06:56,916 --> 00:07:00,276 Speaker 2: to this sort of bent and broken place of silence, 101 00:07:00,516 --> 00:07:09,636 Speaker 2: of only domesticity and being beholden to just her husband. Yeah. 102 00:07:09,676 --> 00:07:12,476 Speaker 1: Did you see what you described modeled in you talked 103 00:07:12,516 --> 00:07:14,756 Speaker 1: about being beholden to a man? Right? Did you see 104 00:07:14,796 --> 00:07:18,036 Speaker 1: that modeled between your parents and the way that they 105 00:07:18,036 --> 00:07:20,116 Speaker 1: interacted with each other, Like the way that your mom 106 00:07:20,196 --> 00:07:22,196 Speaker 1: was expected to serve your father. 107 00:07:23,836 --> 00:07:26,356 Speaker 2: So when I was younger, when I was a teenager, 108 00:07:27,076 --> 00:07:29,596 Speaker 2: this is how it appeared to me. You know that 109 00:07:29,676 --> 00:07:32,956 Speaker 2: my mother, she did all the domestic things, she cooked 110 00:07:32,956 --> 00:07:37,036 Speaker 2: for everyone, and she I mean, she was just a 111 00:07:37,236 --> 00:07:43,196 Speaker 2: natural nurturing person, gentle, patient, and to her she saw 112 00:07:43,236 --> 00:07:46,956 Speaker 2: it as an honor to be our mom and to 113 00:07:47,956 --> 00:07:53,276 Speaker 2: educate us and expand our imaginations. But in her interactions 114 00:07:53,396 --> 00:07:56,316 Speaker 2: with my father, I often, when I was younger, found 115 00:07:56,956 --> 00:08:01,796 Speaker 2: her voice to be silent. It appeared to me that 116 00:08:01,836 --> 00:08:04,356 Speaker 2: she kind of just deferred, maybe to keep the peace. 117 00:08:05,116 --> 00:08:07,356 Speaker 2: She was, you know, a kind of person who did 118 00:08:07,396 --> 00:08:12,076 Speaker 2: not like confrontation. My father I think some of the 119 00:08:12,116 --> 00:08:14,116 Speaker 2: time was almost all confrontation. 120 00:08:14,676 --> 00:08:20,276 Speaker 1: Yeah, Rastafaris constituted a very small minority of the population. Right, 121 00:08:20,356 --> 00:08:24,556 Speaker 1: So you were you and your siblings were facing all 122 00:08:24,596 --> 00:08:27,876 Speaker 1: of these restrictions imposed by your father, but you were 123 00:08:28,276 --> 00:08:32,676 Speaker 1: further confronting difference at school because your peers were not 124 00:08:32,836 --> 00:08:35,356 Speaker 1: having to follow the same rules as you. And so 125 00:08:36,036 --> 00:08:39,076 Speaker 1: how did that dynamic play out for young Sophia, Right, 126 00:08:39,076 --> 00:08:41,636 Speaker 1: She's going to school and you know, as little kids, 127 00:08:41,676 --> 00:08:43,756 Speaker 1: we want to fit in, Right, It's like really hard. 128 00:08:44,756 --> 00:08:51,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, we were so ostracized, not just by our peers 129 00:08:51,236 --> 00:08:54,676 Speaker 2: by the children. Would you kind of expect that children 130 00:08:54,876 --> 00:08:57,916 Speaker 2: will sort of tease you if you're different or whatever. 131 00:08:58,036 --> 00:09:02,516 Speaker 2: But my teachers and the adults also treated us unkindly 132 00:09:02,716 --> 00:09:08,956 Speaker 2: because they had this unkind idea of Rastafari in their minds. 133 00:09:09,676 --> 00:09:12,156 Speaker 2: It's something that most people would be surprised to know 134 00:09:12,756 --> 00:09:17,076 Speaker 2: about Rastafari because we I think most people outside of 135 00:09:17,156 --> 00:09:20,596 Speaker 2: Jamaica really think Rasafari define Jamaica. 136 00:09:20,676 --> 00:09:20,836 Speaker 4: Right. 137 00:09:20,956 --> 00:09:24,916 Speaker 2: You would probably imagine that they're the majority of the population, 138 00:09:25,516 --> 00:09:28,876 Speaker 2: but actually they're not. They're one percent or less of 139 00:09:28,916 --> 00:09:34,316 Speaker 2: the population. And historically, after the Rastafari movement began in 140 00:09:34,396 --> 00:09:38,836 Speaker 2: the nineteen thirties, Jamaica was still under British colonial rule 141 00:09:39,276 --> 00:09:44,196 Speaker 2: and the movement began as this sort of anti colonial movement, 142 00:09:44,876 --> 00:09:49,796 Speaker 2: one that sought to harden around black liberation and freedom. 143 00:09:50,196 --> 00:09:54,316 Speaker 2: The Restafari were labeled as a cult by the British 144 00:09:54,396 --> 00:09:59,636 Speaker 2: government and the founder of Rasafari and the big commune 145 00:09:59,676 --> 00:10:02,916 Speaker 2: of where the Rastas lived altogether was burnt to the ground. 146 00:10:02,996 --> 00:10:06,756 Speaker 2: And after that the movement really scattered, and my siblings 147 00:10:06,756 --> 00:10:10,276 Speaker 2: and I were among the first Rasta ChIL children to 148 00:10:10,436 --> 00:10:14,836 Speaker 2: integrate public schools in Jamaica. So Yes, that was a 149 00:10:14,876 --> 00:10:17,756 Speaker 2: lot to kind of take on as a young child. 150 00:10:18,436 --> 00:10:20,756 Speaker 2: We were the only Rasta children at school. We were 151 00:10:20,756 --> 00:10:23,596 Speaker 2: often the only Rasta children on the street, in the 152 00:10:23,636 --> 00:10:27,636 Speaker 2: supermarket wherever we went, so people would point us out 153 00:10:27,716 --> 00:10:28,716 Speaker 2: or point at us. 154 00:10:28,956 --> 00:10:32,036 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you were so easily identified, right because of 155 00:10:32,116 --> 00:10:34,636 Speaker 1: your hair and the clothing restrictions. 156 00:10:34,716 --> 00:10:38,796 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, so no one else had dreadlocks. We 157 00:10:38,796 --> 00:10:42,916 Speaker 2: were the only ones who had dreadlocks, and which I 158 00:10:42,956 --> 00:10:45,556 Speaker 2: think most people kind of think, oh, it's it's a 159 00:10:45,596 --> 00:10:48,636 Speaker 2: hair style, but for the Rastafari, it's a very big 160 00:10:48,676 --> 00:10:52,876 Speaker 2: part of their belief and their faith. The dreadlocks are 161 00:10:52,916 --> 00:10:56,556 Speaker 2: a sacred marker kind of it's a sign of your 162 00:10:56,636 --> 00:11:01,196 Speaker 2: divinity and your your reverence to Ja, which is the 163 00:11:01,236 --> 00:11:05,676 Speaker 2: godhead figure of Rastafari. And so it tethered me to 164 00:11:05,796 --> 00:11:12,396 Speaker 2: my father's control. That signaled to the Rasta brethren in 165 00:11:12,876 --> 00:11:15,596 Speaker 2: his circle that he had his house on the control. 166 00:11:16,156 --> 00:11:21,436 Speaker 2: It created this kind of difficulty of feeling really alienated. 167 00:11:22,036 --> 00:11:27,316 Speaker 1: H there's this very heartbreaking moment you describe in the 168 00:11:27,316 --> 00:11:30,876 Speaker 1: book where a schoolmate of yours tells you that she 169 00:11:30,916 --> 00:11:33,276 Speaker 1: doesn't want to be friends with you because you're Rastafari. 170 00:11:34,276 --> 00:11:38,516 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it was one of these moments in 171 00:11:38,556 --> 00:11:41,836 Speaker 2: my life where things really changed, because as soon as 172 00:11:41,836 --> 00:11:44,476 Speaker 2: we got back to school with our dreadlocks, we were 173 00:11:44,516 --> 00:11:47,556 Speaker 2: being teased, and I remember feeling this is one of 174 00:11:47,596 --> 00:11:52,476 Speaker 2: the first times I felt ashamed to be myself, and 175 00:11:52,516 --> 00:11:55,316 Speaker 2: that was not a good feeling. But I thought I 176 00:11:55,396 --> 00:11:58,476 Speaker 2: had a friend. And my father would always tell us, 177 00:11:58,516 --> 00:12:01,356 Speaker 2: you know, don't keep friend and company, don't have friends 178 00:12:01,436 --> 00:12:06,596 Speaker 2: because outside influences are dangerous and people only want to 179 00:12:06,636 --> 00:12:10,516 Speaker 2: hurt you. But I thought she was my friend, and 180 00:12:10,756 --> 00:12:13,356 Speaker 2: one day she did send someone to give me this 181 00:12:13,516 --> 00:12:15,556 Speaker 2: note that said I don't want to be friends with you. 182 00:12:15,596 --> 00:12:19,476 Speaker 2: I don't want to be friends with Arasta, And yeah, 183 00:12:19,516 --> 00:12:22,356 Speaker 2: this was one of the most painful moments in my 184 00:12:22,436 --> 00:12:28,956 Speaker 2: young life, and I tried to harm myself. I stepped 185 00:12:28,996 --> 00:12:32,316 Speaker 2: on a rusty nail. I was ten years old. You know, 186 00:12:32,476 --> 00:12:35,556 Speaker 2: all of this pain, I didn't know where it should go. 187 00:12:36,676 --> 00:12:41,636 Speaker 2: And I was feeling all this pain, all this alienation, isolation, 188 00:12:42,916 --> 00:12:46,036 Speaker 2: and I was at home recovering from what I'd done. 189 00:12:46,156 --> 00:12:49,676 Speaker 2: I told everybody it was an accident, and somehow my 190 00:12:49,756 --> 00:12:52,356 Speaker 2: mother knew it wasn't an accident, and she kind of 191 00:12:52,676 --> 00:12:54,756 Speaker 2: she came to my bed and she sat down and 192 00:12:54,836 --> 00:12:59,836 Speaker 2: she gave me this really beautiful talk about how she 193 00:13:00,076 --> 00:13:04,796 Speaker 2: also felt alienated when she was growing up and it 194 00:13:04,836 --> 00:13:10,196 Speaker 2: was poetry that always made her life feel better. And 195 00:13:10,236 --> 00:13:14,036 Speaker 2: then she gave me my first collection of poems and 196 00:13:14,076 --> 00:13:17,036 Speaker 2: she said, you know, poetry has always helped me, and 197 00:13:17,076 --> 00:13:20,596 Speaker 2: I think it will help you too. Wow. 198 00:13:21,356 --> 00:13:26,036 Speaker 3: And she was right, you know she And this is 199 00:13:26,076 --> 00:13:29,396 Speaker 3: the moment I think my life changed. I know it 200 00:13:29,516 --> 00:13:33,716 Speaker 3: changed because as she left me with this book of 201 00:13:33,716 --> 00:13:36,316 Speaker 3: poems and I read the poems in there, and I. 202 00:13:36,276 --> 00:13:40,356 Speaker 2: Could feel viscerally all the hurt and pain I had 203 00:13:40,396 --> 00:13:46,756 Speaker 2: been feeling because of what happened at school, slowly leaving 204 00:13:46,836 --> 00:13:53,476 Speaker 2: me slowly really evaporating and changing from hurt and pain 205 00:13:53,756 --> 00:14:00,876 Speaker 2: into something else, something beautiful. And I knew then that 206 00:14:00,876 --> 00:14:03,276 Speaker 2: that was the power of poetry. And I thought, if 207 00:14:03,316 --> 00:14:06,956 Speaker 2: I can just keep this feeling, this feeling of wonder 208 00:14:06,996 --> 00:14:10,276 Speaker 2: that really burnt away all of the pain, I would 209 00:14:10,276 --> 00:14:11,556 Speaker 2: always be Okay. 210 00:14:11,636 --> 00:14:18,596 Speaker 1: Yeah, do you remember particular line of poetry that you 211 00:14:18,676 --> 00:14:21,516 Speaker 1: remember speaking to you or yeah. 212 00:14:21,556 --> 00:14:24,316 Speaker 2: She gave me this book. It was called Poems from 213 00:14:24,396 --> 00:14:28,676 Speaker 2: a Child's World, and she told me that William Blake, 214 00:14:28,756 --> 00:14:31,596 Speaker 2: the poem The Tiger was one of her favorites, and 215 00:14:31,636 --> 00:14:34,916 Speaker 2: then I just remember reading that and being awe struck 216 00:14:35,836 --> 00:14:40,396 Speaker 2: and how the words sort of came alive as connected 217 00:14:40,476 --> 00:14:43,716 Speaker 2: to feeling, and how I felt that the imagery was 218 00:14:43,756 --> 00:14:46,436 Speaker 2: also a vessel for meaning and it felt like another 219 00:14:46,556 --> 00:14:50,716 Speaker 2: world opening, a way of understanding the world. That it 220 00:14:50,836 --> 00:14:53,316 Speaker 2: sort of touched something in me that was just waiting 221 00:14:53,356 --> 00:14:57,396 Speaker 2: to be touched, the poet's soul. And then I wrote 222 00:14:57,436 --> 00:15:01,116 Speaker 2: my first poem that was an imitation of the Tiger, 223 00:15:01,196 --> 00:15:02,116 Speaker 2: called the Butterfly. 224 00:15:03,876 --> 00:15:04,396 Speaker 4: But its. 225 00:15:05,796 --> 00:15:10,116 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, ascute little poem, but you know, it 226 00:15:10,156 --> 00:15:15,316 Speaker 2: was the first time I realized that there was another 227 00:15:15,436 --> 00:15:19,476 Speaker 2: world there waiting for me to touch it. 228 00:15:20,156 --> 00:15:24,556 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's another world in which you could exercise 229 00:15:24,676 --> 00:15:29,036 Speaker 1: your personal agency again, right in which you were unencumbered 230 00:15:29,116 --> 00:15:32,436 Speaker 1: and just by having a pen and paper, you were 231 00:15:32,516 --> 00:15:35,956 Speaker 1: fully empowered to express yourself. I mean, I can't imagine 232 00:15:36,156 --> 00:15:39,996 Speaker 1: how intoxicating that would feel, given all of the restrictions 233 00:15:40,036 --> 00:15:41,516 Speaker 1: you had faced up until this point. 234 00:15:42,276 --> 00:15:47,396 Speaker 2: Exactly. Yes, I mean, poetry offered me the space to 235 00:15:48,596 --> 00:15:53,196 Speaker 2: nurture my sense of selfhood, to really hone my voice 236 00:15:53,556 --> 00:15:56,756 Speaker 2: at a time where I felt that silence was what 237 00:15:56,916 --> 00:16:00,916 Speaker 2: was being required of me, and poetry, yes, became this 238 00:16:01,156 --> 00:16:06,436 Speaker 2: space where I could really evolve myself and my thoughts 239 00:16:06,436 --> 00:16:07,356 Speaker 2: and my imagination. 240 00:16:08,676 --> 00:16:13,476 Speaker 1: You start reading poetry, you're writing, You're having these magical 241 00:16:13,556 --> 00:16:16,876 Speaker 1: experiences with it. Right you called yourself awestruck. Did you 242 00:16:16,876 --> 00:16:20,236 Speaker 1: feel that it was puncturing holes maybe in your belief 243 00:16:20,276 --> 00:16:23,876 Speaker 1: system or did it open your eyes to a future 244 00:16:24,356 --> 00:16:26,716 Speaker 1: that it maybe felt inaccessible to you? Prior? 245 00:16:28,756 --> 00:16:33,476 Speaker 2: Poetry for me was something that I felt was crucial 246 00:16:33,596 --> 00:16:38,196 Speaker 2: to my survival. It was something that I needed to 247 00:16:38,276 --> 00:16:44,596 Speaker 2: do in order to survive. But also once my poems 248 00:16:44,716 --> 00:16:49,116 Speaker 2: began to be published, and my first poem was published 249 00:16:49,116 --> 00:16:52,276 Speaker 2: when I was sixteen, this was really the first time 250 00:16:52,316 --> 00:16:56,116 Speaker 2: I felt that not only did I have something to say, 251 00:16:57,276 --> 00:17:01,076 Speaker 2: but that what I had to say matted, And so 252 00:17:01,316 --> 00:17:05,316 Speaker 2: that was a crucial thing that poetry gave to me. Yes, 253 00:17:05,396 --> 00:17:08,356 Speaker 2: there was always this imagination of a future in which 254 00:17:08,716 --> 00:17:11,796 Speaker 2: I could be a poet. You know that this passion 255 00:17:11,876 --> 00:17:15,716 Speaker 2: that I had was something that I could continue to do, 256 00:17:15,796 --> 00:17:18,796 Speaker 2: that it could continue to imbue my world with all 257 00:17:18,836 --> 00:17:22,196 Speaker 2: of this light and wonder. But I think the first 258 00:17:22,236 --> 00:17:25,436 Speaker 2: crucial thing it did was really help me find my 259 00:17:25,556 --> 00:17:30,236 Speaker 2: voice and to believe that what that voice had to 260 00:17:30,316 --> 00:17:36,756 Speaker 2: say was important. So keep speaking. 261 00:17:37,036 --> 00:17:39,196 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment. With a slight change 262 00:17:39,196 --> 00:17:56,076 Speaker 1: of plans, at age sixteen, Sophia asked her mom to 263 00:17:56,116 --> 00:17:59,836 Speaker 1: mail three of her poems to the Jamaica Observer, and 264 00:17:59,956 --> 00:18:03,596 Speaker 1: soon after the paper published her first poem in print. 265 00:18:04,636 --> 00:18:07,556 Speaker 1: As she continued to write, Sophia began to see that 266 00:18:07,596 --> 00:18:10,396 Speaker 1: the future her dad had laid out for her, the 267 00:18:10,436 --> 00:18:13,716 Speaker 1: one in which he avoided the influence of Babylon, was 268 00:18:13,756 --> 00:18:17,636 Speaker 1: not going to be satisfying, and so, at age nineteen, 269 00:18:17,916 --> 00:18:20,556 Speaker 1: she contemplated a bold decision. 270 00:18:21,236 --> 00:18:25,956 Speaker 2: Practically my whole life, my whole you know, adolescence. I 271 00:18:26,076 --> 00:18:28,756 Speaker 2: kept asking like, can I cut my dreadlocks? And the 272 00:18:28,796 --> 00:18:32,676 Speaker 2: answer was always no, absolutely not. And then, you know, 273 00:18:32,796 --> 00:18:35,076 Speaker 2: I just began to feel the older I got that 274 00:18:35,636 --> 00:18:38,836 Speaker 2: tied to this vision of the woman, this future woman 275 00:18:38,916 --> 00:18:41,596 Speaker 2: that I would become if I continued down this path 276 00:18:42,276 --> 00:18:45,796 Speaker 2: that my father had me on. I really began to 277 00:18:45,916 --> 00:18:51,196 Speaker 2: see the dreadlocks as the thing that connected me to 278 00:18:51,356 --> 00:18:55,436 Speaker 2: my father and his beliefs and his control over my body, 279 00:18:55,516 --> 00:19:00,436 Speaker 2: over my voice, and over my future. And I thought, 280 00:19:01,276 --> 00:19:04,316 Speaker 2: this doesn't feel like who I am and that is 281 00:19:04,396 --> 00:19:07,476 Speaker 2: not the future that I want. And I said to 282 00:19:07,516 --> 00:19:11,276 Speaker 2: my mother, you know, Mom, I just don't feel like 283 00:19:11,476 --> 00:19:14,756 Speaker 2: I can go on like this. I don't feel like myself. 284 00:19:15,596 --> 00:19:17,836 Speaker 2: This is not who I am, and I want to 285 00:19:17,916 --> 00:19:22,636 Speaker 2: choose for myself who I want to be. And she said, okay, 286 00:19:23,116 --> 00:19:28,156 Speaker 2: well tell me how I can help you. Wow. And yeah. 287 00:19:28,436 --> 00:19:32,396 Speaker 2: Then she she helped me do it. And you know, 288 00:19:32,476 --> 00:19:35,716 Speaker 2: I said, Mom, aren't you like or maybe it was 289 00:19:35,756 --> 00:19:39,516 Speaker 2: her friend one of us asked like, you know, isn't 290 00:19:39,916 --> 00:19:42,836 Speaker 2: my dad gonna be furious? And she said that's okay, 291 00:19:43,036 --> 00:19:47,036 Speaker 2: Like I'll take his anger. I just want you to 292 00:19:47,156 --> 00:19:50,196 Speaker 2: choose for yourself the person you want to be. 293 00:19:51,476 --> 00:19:51,876 Speaker 1: Wow. 294 00:19:52,316 --> 00:19:54,676 Speaker 2: Yeah. And so you know, that was another moment of 295 00:19:54,716 --> 00:19:59,676 Speaker 2: my life that my mother really paved the path for 296 00:19:59,796 --> 00:20:03,956 Speaker 2: me to live as freely as I wanted to. 297 00:20:05,796 --> 00:20:07,996 Speaker 1: Do. You remember, Sophia, what it was like to see 298 00:20:07,996 --> 00:20:10,556 Speaker 1: that first law fall to the ground. 299 00:20:11,876 --> 00:20:15,876 Speaker 2: I mean, it was incredibly moving in a way that 300 00:20:16,076 --> 00:20:21,716 Speaker 2: surprised me right, feeling this kind of peculiar remorse because 301 00:20:21,756 --> 00:20:26,116 Speaker 2: I had railed for so long wanting to cut my 302 00:20:26,236 --> 00:20:29,116 Speaker 2: dreadlocks that I hadn't expected it to matto when the 303 00:20:29,156 --> 00:20:32,756 Speaker 2: moment came, but then it matted a great deal. I 304 00:20:32,916 --> 00:20:36,076 Speaker 2: felt like, oh my gosh, I'm losing this part of 305 00:20:36,116 --> 00:20:39,516 Speaker 2: myself that had been all of because you know that 306 00:20:39,556 --> 00:20:43,076 Speaker 2: your hair carries like energy and spirits, you know, everything, 307 00:20:43,836 --> 00:20:46,876 Speaker 2: and it just felt like, Wow, I was losing all 308 00:20:46,916 --> 00:20:50,716 Speaker 2: of this, all the past, all of the moments I'd lived, 309 00:20:50,796 --> 00:20:54,316 Speaker 2: and who would I be without these dreadlocks. There was 310 00:20:54,356 --> 00:20:57,036 Speaker 2: this question like am I losing some of my power? 311 00:20:57,076 --> 00:20:59,036 Speaker 2: Which is what my father always told me, that our 312 00:20:59,116 --> 00:21:01,916 Speaker 2: dreadlocks were our power, like your hair is your power, 313 00:21:02,316 --> 00:21:08,916 Speaker 2: your crown. Finally I felt free. I felt yeah, that 314 00:21:08,956 --> 00:21:10,956 Speaker 2: the tell us had been cut from me, that I 315 00:21:11,076 --> 00:21:16,676 Speaker 2: was new again, that I was someone unburdened and someone 316 00:21:16,676 --> 00:21:18,476 Speaker 2: who could choose what happened next. 317 00:21:19,076 --> 00:21:24,436 Speaker 1: Wow. What was your father's reaction when he first saw you? 318 00:21:26,276 --> 00:21:36,236 Speaker 2: Girl? Anger? Fury? You know, like this was absolutely a 319 00:21:36,676 --> 00:21:41,276 Speaker 2: like an disaster. It was like a fracturing in our family. 320 00:21:41,476 --> 00:21:46,036 Speaker 2: It was he didn't talk to me for a while, 321 00:21:47,356 --> 00:21:49,516 Speaker 2: even though we were in the same house. I think he, 322 00:21:51,716 --> 00:21:53,916 Speaker 2: you know, he looked at me with like disgust. I 323 00:21:53,956 --> 00:21:58,236 Speaker 2: would say, So it was hard. It was very hard. Yeah, 324 00:21:59,516 --> 00:22:02,836 Speaker 2: It's a defining moment in my life. And a defining 325 00:22:02,876 --> 00:22:07,116 Speaker 2: moment in my family's life doing that, because we knew, 326 00:22:07,236 --> 00:22:09,716 Speaker 2: we all knew, me and my sisters that this was 327 00:22:09,836 --> 00:22:15,116 Speaker 2: the one thing that would change everything, because even if 328 00:22:15,156 --> 00:22:18,396 Speaker 2: we were questioning things or we were making our own 329 00:22:18,436 --> 00:22:21,836 Speaker 2: little rebellions at home, once we went out in the 330 00:22:21,836 --> 00:22:25,116 Speaker 2: world with our dreadlocks, it was still assigned to the 331 00:22:25,156 --> 00:22:29,276 Speaker 2: community and my father's rasta redreend that his house was 332 00:22:29,276 --> 00:22:33,316 Speaker 2: still under control. But once I cut my dreadlocks, my 333 00:22:33,396 --> 00:22:36,556 Speaker 2: middle sister cut her dreadlocks, then my youngest sister cut 334 00:22:36,556 --> 00:22:39,356 Speaker 2: her dreadlocks, and then my mother, who had been growing 335 00:22:39,356 --> 00:22:42,716 Speaker 2: her dreadlocks since she was nineteen years old when she 336 00:22:42,796 --> 00:22:49,196 Speaker 2: first met my father, And so the entire family changed. 337 00:22:49,596 --> 00:22:52,516 Speaker 2: And of course my relationship with my father only worsened 338 00:22:52,596 --> 00:22:56,076 Speaker 2: because he saw me as the sort of ruin us seed, 339 00:22:56,356 --> 00:23:00,636 Speaker 2: the black sheep that really destroyed his perfect rast of family. 340 00:23:02,596 --> 00:23:05,396 Speaker 1: On the cusp of your twentieth birthday, you decided to 341 00:23:05,396 --> 00:23:09,716 Speaker 1: get your hair straightened at a hair salon, right surrounded 342 00:23:09,756 --> 00:23:15,036 Speaker 1: by worldly Babylonian women that your father would have considered unclean, 343 00:23:15,396 --> 00:23:17,876 Speaker 1: and that would take you right. Tell me about that 344 00:23:17,916 --> 00:23:20,836 Speaker 1: first experience being in the hair salon with all these 345 00:23:20,836 --> 00:23:21,596 Speaker 1: other black women. 346 00:23:23,716 --> 00:23:24,036 Speaker 3: You know. 347 00:23:26,276 --> 00:23:30,996 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like stepping into this world that I 348 00:23:31,076 --> 00:23:33,796 Speaker 2: had no idea about. I'd never been in a salon 349 00:23:33,876 --> 00:23:37,556 Speaker 2: my entire life. My hair had never been cut since 350 00:23:37,596 --> 00:23:41,396 Speaker 2: I was born until that day when I cut my dreadlocks. 351 00:23:41,796 --> 00:23:46,716 Speaker 2: Like no scissors had ever touched my hair. So it 352 00:23:46,956 --> 00:23:49,596 Speaker 2: was like stepping into this curious world. And part of 353 00:23:49,636 --> 00:23:53,556 Speaker 2: me was like, oh, this is like a feminine space. 354 00:23:53,596 --> 00:23:56,756 Speaker 2: This is like a space for women, And I'd never 355 00:23:56,876 --> 00:23:59,636 Speaker 2: been in a space like that before, where it was 356 00:24:00,716 --> 00:24:04,036 Speaker 2: not women living for the needs of men. It was 357 00:24:04,076 --> 00:24:07,276 Speaker 2: just women who were gathering for themselves, right for their 358 00:24:07,276 --> 00:24:11,876 Speaker 2: own desires. It was like there were so many things happening, 359 00:24:11,916 --> 00:24:14,716 Speaker 2: but that was the thing that I took away the most, 360 00:24:14,756 --> 00:24:18,636 Speaker 2: that there was something to me kind of sacred about 361 00:24:18,676 --> 00:24:21,396 Speaker 2: the space of the salon and the black women of 362 00:24:21,436 --> 00:24:24,636 Speaker 2: black women putting her hands in your hair. And even 363 00:24:24,676 --> 00:24:27,396 Speaker 2: though I was told this was like the pits of Babylon, 364 00:24:29,196 --> 00:24:33,596 Speaker 2: I didn't know what to expect. I didn't know how 365 00:24:33,636 --> 00:24:35,396 Speaker 2: they would see me or treat me. But they just 366 00:24:35,476 --> 00:24:40,716 Speaker 2: welcomed me, and they welcomed me and treated me tenderly, 367 00:24:41,756 --> 00:24:44,596 Speaker 2: and you know, I thought there was something beautiful about that, 368 00:24:44,756 --> 00:24:45,436 Speaker 2: and I still do. 369 00:24:47,076 --> 00:24:50,636 Speaker 1: It's been, you know, twenty years since you took that 370 00:24:50,756 --> 00:24:54,276 Speaker 1: leap that you cut your locks. What is your relationship 371 00:24:54,876 --> 00:24:56,996 Speaker 1: like with your family today? So do you mind starting 372 00:24:56,996 --> 00:24:57,636 Speaker 1: with your father? 373 00:25:00,076 --> 00:25:03,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, we have a good relationship. I think it was 374 00:25:04,516 --> 00:25:11,796 Speaker 2: a hard road, difficult road, but I think eventually, and 375 00:25:11,836 --> 00:25:14,996 Speaker 2: I think partially through my writing and my poetry, that 376 00:25:15,716 --> 00:25:20,076 Speaker 2: I was able to speak to him in a way 377 00:25:20,076 --> 00:25:22,196 Speaker 2: that he could hear me, that he could really see 378 00:25:22,236 --> 00:25:24,716 Speaker 2: me as my own person. 379 00:25:25,476 --> 00:25:29,356 Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you feel you have a different appreciation of 380 00:25:29,396 --> 00:25:31,836 Speaker 1: your father and why he had the beliefs he had 381 00:25:31,916 --> 00:25:33,316 Speaker 1: or why he was the way he was. 382 00:25:36,116 --> 00:25:38,316 Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if appreciation is the right word. 383 00:25:38,916 --> 00:25:40,196 Speaker 1: I think understanding. 384 00:25:40,236 --> 00:25:45,076 Speaker 2: Maybe understanding is better because I think, you know, he 385 00:25:45,156 --> 00:25:46,836 Speaker 2: did a lot of things wrong, and he did a 386 00:25:46,916 --> 00:25:50,876 Speaker 2: lot of things that I wish hadn't happened to me. 387 00:25:51,836 --> 00:25:55,716 Speaker 2: But I wanted to understand him in a different way 388 00:25:55,796 --> 00:25:58,676 Speaker 2: and in all of his fullness, with as much nuance 389 00:25:58,756 --> 00:26:02,956 Speaker 2: as I could, and not all one way, not all 390 00:26:02,996 --> 00:26:05,996 Speaker 2: bad or not all good, you know. So I really 391 00:26:06,716 --> 00:26:09,036 Speaker 2: part of that was going back to his own youth 392 00:26:09,356 --> 00:26:14,236 Speaker 2: and trying to figure out what led him to Rastafari, 393 00:26:14,276 --> 00:26:17,996 Speaker 2: how did he go on this journey? Because him going 394 00:26:18,036 --> 00:26:20,876 Speaker 2: on that journey really shaped my own life and my 395 00:26:20,916 --> 00:26:26,156 Speaker 2: own connection to Rastafari. And so I recorded several interviews 396 00:26:26,196 --> 00:26:30,356 Speaker 2: with him, asking him about his life, which was something 397 00:26:30,396 --> 00:26:33,036 Speaker 2: I'd never done. I mean, I wasn't allowed to, I 398 00:26:33,076 --> 00:26:35,756 Speaker 2: think when I was younger, because it was always like, 399 00:26:35,876 --> 00:26:39,076 Speaker 2: these are the rules, don't question them. So he never 400 00:26:39,156 --> 00:26:44,676 Speaker 2: really humanized himself to us. And there were moments where 401 00:26:45,556 --> 00:26:48,356 Speaker 2: I was recording with him. There was this moment where 402 00:26:48,356 --> 00:26:52,876 Speaker 2: he described his mother leaving him at sixteen on the 403 00:26:52,876 --> 00:26:57,516 Speaker 2: street to be homeless because he chose to be Rastafari. 404 00:26:58,516 --> 00:27:02,316 Speaker 2: And when my father told me the story, he wept. 405 00:27:02,516 --> 00:27:05,236 Speaker 2: It was the first time I remember hearing him cry 406 00:27:05,316 --> 00:27:08,436 Speaker 2: like that, and I thought, wow, he is still holding 407 00:27:08,476 --> 00:27:16,396 Speaker 2: these wounds. And I really had to think about his 408 00:27:16,556 --> 00:27:20,196 Speaker 2: life in a way that led me to a path 409 00:27:20,236 --> 00:27:24,076 Speaker 2: of forgiveness, which I had not expected. I would have 410 00:27:24,116 --> 00:27:30,476 Speaker 2: never described myself as a forgiving person, so no one 411 00:27:30,556 --> 00:27:34,116 Speaker 2: was more surprised than me to find myself on that path. 412 00:27:34,196 --> 00:27:36,596 Speaker 2: But I'm very happy that I did. 413 00:27:37,156 --> 00:27:41,316 Speaker 1: There's a stirring parallelism there, right, which was both you 414 00:27:41,356 --> 00:27:45,876 Speaker 1: and your father experienced a rejection of some kind from 415 00:27:45,956 --> 00:27:49,276 Speaker 1: your parents as teenagers, right. I mean he in choosing 416 00:27:49,276 --> 00:27:52,436 Speaker 1: to become Restafara and you at nineteen and cutting off 417 00:27:52,436 --> 00:27:56,236 Speaker 1: your dreadlocks. Right, So then the input was different that 418 00:27:56,276 --> 00:27:57,396 Speaker 1: the reaction was the same. 419 00:27:57,636 --> 00:28:01,636 Speaker 2: I know. I think if he'd had his way, he 420 00:28:01,676 --> 00:28:04,076 Speaker 2: would have turned me out. And my mother said, there's 421 00:28:04,116 --> 00:28:08,836 Speaker 2: absolutely no way that that's going to happen, like your 422 00:28:08,876 --> 00:28:11,916 Speaker 2: own mother did to you. And you know, again, coming 423 00:28:11,956 --> 00:28:16,356 Speaker 2: back to my mom really as this force of strength 424 00:28:17,356 --> 00:28:19,516 Speaker 2: in a way that I couldn't have seen then, but 425 00:28:19,556 --> 00:28:23,596 Speaker 2: I realize now. So she's the one who said there's 426 00:28:23,676 --> 00:28:28,516 Speaker 2: no way that's happening. My mom, I mean, we're so 427 00:28:28,516 --> 00:28:31,556 Speaker 2: so close. She's such a lover of poetry that I 428 00:28:31,636 --> 00:28:34,996 Speaker 2: think no one is a bigger fan of my writing 429 00:28:35,036 --> 00:28:38,556 Speaker 2: and my work than my mom. She's always she's always 430 00:28:38,596 --> 00:28:41,596 Speaker 2: there if she can at my events in the front row. 431 00:28:41,956 --> 00:28:44,676 Speaker 2: If it's a poem, I'll see her mouth moving like 432 00:28:44,796 --> 00:28:49,276 Speaker 2: mouthing the worst in the poem, and she'll say to me, wow, 433 00:28:49,436 --> 00:28:52,356 Speaker 2: like I just I can't believe this is what I did. 434 00:28:52,476 --> 00:28:57,156 Speaker 2: Like I have my own personal poet, so to her, 435 00:28:57,396 --> 00:28:59,956 Speaker 2: that's me. I'm her own personal post. Oh I love that. 436 00:29:01,076 --> 00:29:04,116 Speaker 2: And you know, my siblings were all very, very very close. 437 00:29:04,236 --> 00:29:07,756 Speaker 2: We grew up like very close knit because we grew 438 00:29:07,836 --> 00:29:11,956 Speaker 2: up in this very strange condition of being the only 439 00:29:12,036 --> 00:29:15,116 Speaker 2: rast of children. We became very close and we're still 440 00:29:15,156 --> 00:29:18,156 Speaker 2: all very close. We talk every day, you know, me 441 00:29:18,196 --> 00:29:22,236 Speaker 2: and my sisters we talk several times a day. So yeah, 442 00:29:22,596 --> 00:29:23,276 Speaker 2: it's wonderful. 443 00:29:23,316 --> 00:29:26,916 Speaker 1: I mean, you had mentioned earlier that you feel hair 444 00:29:27,156 --> 00:29:31,516 Speaker 1: carries energy. How would you describe your relationship with your 445 00:29:31,556 --> 00:29:32,236 Speaker 1: hair today? 446 00:29:33,356 --> 00:29:35,476 Speaker 2: I wear my hair in all different kinds of ways, 447 00:29:36,116 --> 00:29:38,196 Speaker 2: But what really Matt does is that I have the 448 00:29:38,316 --> 00:29:41,076 Speaker 2: choice to wear it how I want to, and so 449 00:29:41,716 --> 00:29:44,196 Speaker 2: no matter what kind of style I have on my head, 450 00:29:44,716 --> 00:29:47,996 Speaker 2: just the fact that it is my choice makes it 451 00:29:48,436 --> 00:29:49,476 Speaker 2: a source of power. 452 00:30:12,156 --> 00:30:15,836 Speaker 1: Sophia's latest book is a memoir called How to Say Babylon. 453 00:30:16,356 --> 00:30:18,836 Speaker 1: We'll link to it in our show notes. Thank you 454 00:30:18,916 --> 00:30:21,676 Speaker 1: so much for listening. Next week, join me when I 455 00:30:21,716 --> 00:30:24,916 Speaker 1: speak to journalists Charles Duhig about the science of what 456 00:30:25,036 --> 00:30:26,516 Speaker 1: makes for a great conversation. 457 00:30:27,316 --> 00:30:29,636 Speaker 4: When you and I have a real conversation, our bodies 458 00:30:29,636 --> 00:30:32,276 Speaker 4: and our brains change, our heart rates starts to match 459 00:30:32,316 --> 00:30:34,316 Speaker 4: each other, our breath patterns starts to match each other, 460 00:30:34,396 --> 00:30:37,956 Speaker 4: our pupils start to dilate at similar rates, and more importantly, 461 00:30:37,996 --> 00:30:41,636 Speaker 4: the neural activity within our brains starts to look more 462 00:30:41,636 --> 00:30:45,676 Speaker 4: and more similar. This simultaneity, the similarity, is at the 463 00:30:45,676 --> 00:30:50,676 Speaker 4: core of communication and is what makes communication so powerful, 464 00:30:51,076 --> 00:30:53,236 Speaker 4: and our brains have evolved that when we achieve it, 465 00:30:53,396 --> 00:30:54,836 Speaker 4: we feel wonderful. 466 00:30:55,716 --> 00:30:58,556 Speaker 1: That's next week on A Slight Change of Plans. I'll 467 00:30:58,596 --> 00:31:11,756 Speaker 1: see you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, 468 00:31:11,756 --> 00:31:15,476 Speaker 1: written and executive producer by me Maya Shunker. The Slight 469 00:31:15,556 --> 00:31:19,676 Speaker 1: Change family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior producer 470 00:31:19,796 --> 00:31:24,156 Speaker 1: Kate Parkinson Morgan, our producer Brianna Garrett, and our engineer 471 00:31:24,316 --> 00:31:28,636 Speaker 1: Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song and 472 00:31:28,716 --> 00:31:32,236 Speaker 1: Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of 473 00:31:32,236 --> 00:31:35,236 Speaker 1: Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so a big 474 00:31:35,276 --> 00:31:38,916 Speaker 1: thanks to everyone there, and of course a very special 475 00:31:38,956 --> 00:31:42,276 Speaker 1: thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change 476 00:31:42,276 --> 00:31:45,676 Speaker 1: of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker. See you 477 00:31:45,716 --> 00:31:46,156 Speaker 1: next week.