Speaker 1: This was like another big, big black mark to stick
Speaker 1: next to me, to say he's a wrongman.
Speaker 2: Hello again, and welcome to Midnight Chats, a podcast of
Speaker 2: informal interviews with leading musicians, published weekly at midnight to
Speaker 2: suit the mood of these very informal conversations. This week's
Speaker 2: episode is hosted by me Stuart Stubbs, editor of Loud.
Speaker 3: And Quiet magazine.
Speaker 2: Tonight, my guest is Bernard Butler, and here is what
Speaker 2: I've decided you need.
Speaker 3: To know about him.
Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety four, Bernard famously walked out of the
Speaker 2: band Swede, who at that point were kind of on
Speaker 2: the top of the world, had already released their self
Speaker 2: titled debut album and their second dog Man Start was
Speaker 2: almost complete at a point when Bernard decided to walk
Speaker 2: away from the group. He spent the twenty eight years
Speaker 2: since being something of a king collaborator as both a
Speaker 2: songwriter and producer. The artists he's worked with include Edwin Collins,
Speaker 2: Nana Cherry, The Libertines, Pet Shop Boys, Paloma Faith, The Cribs,
Speaker 2: Tim Booth, Roy Orbison, and Tricky, to name just a few.
Speaker 2: Perhaps most famously of all, though Bernard co produced and
Speaker 2: co wrote part of Duffy's debut album Rock Ferry, for
Speaker 2: which he won a Grammy in two thousand and eight.
Speaker 2: Having now met Bernard to record this episode of Midnight Chats,
Speaker 2: I get the feeling those sort of big awards are
Speaker 2: not really what he's all about, and we do talk
Speaker 2: a little bit about his unorthodox approach to his music career.
Speaker 2: We also spend a decent chunk of our time talking
Speaker 2: about one song in particular, which Bernard wrote and released
Speaker 2: with David McColman called Yes. That was straight after he
Speaker 2: left Swede, and I've added a link to the song
Speaker 2: in the show notes of this episode for you to
Speaker 2: either reacquaint yourself with it or perhaps hear it for
Speaker 2: the first time. Maybe you want to do that now
Speaker 2: before you carry on, or maybe save it till the end,
Speaker 2: But either way, it's always a treat to hear Yes.
Speaker 3: By McColeman and Butler.
Speaker 2: Bernard's newest work, though, is an album with singer and
Speaker 2: actor Jesse Buckley, called for All Our Days that Tear
Speaker 2: the Heart. It came out just a couple of weeks
Speaker 2: ago in mid June twenty twenty two. It's a lovely
Speaker 2: record and Jesse's voice is incredible on it. It reminds
Speaker 2: me a little bit of Laura Marlin, a friend of
Speaker 2: the podcast, of course, as is Bernard's old bandmatee Brett Anderson.
Speaker 3: I've linked to.
Speaker 2: Our episodes with both of those artists below because I
Speaker 2: am an opportunist, and that's about as much as I
Speaker 2: think you need to know. If you enjoy the episode,
Speaker 2: please do tell a friend and share the podcast around.
Speaker 2: It really helps us out. And if you really enjoy it,
Speaker 2: there is also a link down there where you can
Speaker 2: make a small donation to help the running costs of
Speaker 2: this show. This is Bernard Butler on Midnight Chats, episode
Speaker 2: one hundred and six. You know, I always used to
Speaker 2: start this podcast asked, because of the name, asking people
Speaker 2: if they're nighttime people, if they're nocturnal and by nature.
Speaker 2: And I stopped asking that question mainly because it's quite
Speaker 2: a bad question, but also because we're interviewing musicians. They
Speaker 2: all just said yes because they tend to be touring
Speaker 2: and it's a it's a nighttime pursuit. But as a
Speaker 2: man who tends to make records more than two of
Speaker 2: them heavily.
Speaker 3: Are you? How about you? How do how is this
Speaker 3: question valid?
Speaker 1: All of a sudden, I don't stay up all night, No,
Speaker 1: for sure, never really did. To be honest, I don't
Speaker 1: like it. No, I'm pretty my sort of creative. It
Speaker 1: sounds really pretentious about that. You'll create a moment quite
Speaker 1: a lot of the time are first thing in the morning.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty good to have wide awake with with ideas
Speaker 1: and then want to run back. And then I sort
Speaker 1: of slump in the middle of the day. So not
Speaker 1: really nolternal. I mean I stay up.
Speaker 3: What do I do?
Speaker 1: I mean, I never go to sleep before about half eleven.
Speaker 1: I don't know what standard or not. My wife is
Speaker 1: a teacher and she goes out to battle at six
Speaker 1: point thirty every morning, and I see it go off
Speaker 1: on a bike, and she's just like an absolute trooper,
Speaker 1: and so she's always asleep before me for obvious reasons.
Speaker 1: And so I tend to sort of, yeah, just watch
Speaker 1: nonsense TV and weird documentaries and stuff. But I know
Speaker 1: I'm not somebody who'd want to step I really don't
Speaker 1: like seeing the light like darts turn into light.
Speaker 3: I mean neither.
Speaker 1: I have a real problem with that. And so when
Speaker 1: I was young and we did stupid things. That always
Speaker 1: was a real bother for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it always I'm exactly the same. I always felt
Speaker 2: like it had ruined the next day. The next day
Speaker 2: is just a rite off. Now, as soon as you
Speaker 2: see the sun exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was okay staying up late, but if you
Speaker 1: saw that happened, you thought, oh, no, I've done this wrong.
Speaker 1: I've done this again, you know, And so I really
Speaker 1: don't like that. I don't like staying up. I don't
Speaker 1: like waking up in the night, and I tend to
Speaker 1: get I don't know if it's an age thing, but
Speaker 1: I definitely get at this point in life if I
Speaker 1: if I wake, you get real hebgb's and really irrational thoughts.
Speaker 1: And I think post COVID actually, and having had that
Speaker 1: at least twice, it's definitely something that affected me. Waking
Speaker 1: up and having very irrational thoughts that really scare me.
Speaker 1: And I've written a lot about that. Actually, that that
Speaker 1: kind of period, and then you get to the next
Speaker 1: morning you just think, Jesus, what the hell was I thinking?
Speaker 3: I mean, what am I on about? You know?
Speaker 1: But things that I'm not talking about dreams or nightmares
Speaker 1: and thinking being wide awake and just not having a
Speaker 1: grip on reality. So I really don't like it. No,
Speaker 1: I really like sleep, and I really love just a
Speaker 1: proper good night's sleep.
Speaker 2: So you tend to You're in bed at half eleven,
Speaker 2: and then you wake up and are you straight in
Speaker 2: the studio because you've got a studio at home?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I work from home.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so do you? Is that your first you go
Speaker 2: straight to Sue and you get and as you say,
Speaker 2: most of your kind of good ideas come in the morning.
Speaker 3: An awful lot of it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And my studios next to the shower, and it's not
Speaker 1: unusual for me to come out of the shower or
Speaker 1: run the shower, which is even worse, and then think
Speaker 1: I'll have a fiddle and then end up thinking I've
Speaker 1: run the shower for twenty minutes and not I'm still
Speaker 1: in my pants, you know, and or something stupid like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because I sort of feel awake at that moment, really alive.
Speaker 1: Just picture that.
Speaker 2: It's a beautiful image. It's a beautiful image. Yesterday, knowing
Speaker 2: that we were meeting today, I reread an interview that
Speaker 2: you gave our magazine actually in twenty fifteen. It was
Speaker 2: around the time that you were doing the reissue of
Speaker 2: Sounds of the Sound of Calman and Butler, and it's
Speaker 2: a really good interview. I forgot how good it was,
Speaker 2: but there was a line in it that you said
Speaker 2: that really made me laugh. That said you said, if
Speaker 2: a red label ever asked me to do anything, I
Speaker 2: always do the compolar opposite. Hmmm, Well is that still
Speaker 2: the case. Well, it depends what it is. If it's
Speaker 2: doing the Loud and Quiet podcast, then I hear, yeah,
Speaker 2: say no, yeah, probably can't imagine the context of a
Speaker 2: few years ago, but probably what I was referring to
Speaker 2: is the sort Well, I think it's a good it's
Speaker 2: a good thing to have a spirit of you could
Speaker 2: call it rebellion's which is a little bit, you know,
Speaker 2: a little bit potentious, probably not quite true, but I
Speaker 2: mean it's questioning. I like to question things, you know,
Speaker 2: and I like to challenge things, for sure. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: think at the moment, you know, at the moment, I've
Speaker 2: got a record company around me and working with the
Speaker 2: project of Jesse Buckley and who were just the dream
Speaker 2: they are. Everyone is fantastic and I really really enjoy
Speaker 2: and really trust. I think it's a situational trust you know,
Speaker 2: you've become very very quickly aware around people who you trust,
Speaker 2: and you trust style and taste and ideas, and from there,
Speaker 2: there's definitely been points when it's been really healthy for
Speaker 2: me to not trust those situations. And of course, as
Speaker 2: you grow by not trusting other people, you have to
Speaker 2: formulate your own ideas and your own vision, and I
Speaker 2: think that's entirely healthy. So I always think with young people,
Speaker 2: I always encourage them that. Quite often, if I'm asked
Speaker 2: to work with a young person, you know, a young
Speaker 2: singer or a writer or something like that. What really
Speaker 2: irritates me is if a record company with the attached
Speaker 2: email or manager attached emails saying, you know, can you
Speaker 2: give them some direction, you know, and give them some vision?
Speaker 2: And I just said, have you asked them what their
Speaker 2: vision is? Because I bet you haven't. You know, you're
Speaker 2: you're asking old geezer to you know, do that. But
Speaker 2: everybody's got it. It's about having the the guts to
Speaker 2: articulate that vision. And we all have creative ideas. Whoever
Speaker 2: we are, whatever we do in life, we all have
Speaker 2: potential and it's about tapping into it. So I just
Speaker 2: always encourage that with as as an artist to challenge
Speaker 2: myself and challenge everyone around me and challenge my decisions.
Speaker 2: I just have a checklist of things that I'm always thinking,
Speaker 2: have I checked that side of what I'm doing in
Speaker 2: a certain situation? And that you get that from experience
Speaker 2: and learning. It's not It sounds more. It sounds patronizing
Speaker 2: to say that about a label or something, but really
Speaker 2: I think it's about using people's strengths.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: So is that the first thing you say to an
Speaker 2: artist when they come to you when you're going to
Speaker 2: work together. How does that is that? The first question
Speaker 2: you say is what is your vision? What do you
Speaker 2: want to do? Where do you see this going?
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't ask the question. I try and find out.
Speaker 1: I try and I try and see if it comes out.
Speaker 1: It's not like something you want to write down a
Speaker 1: piece of paper, and you know, it's not like an interview,
Speaker 1: and you want to see if that's evolving, and normally
Speaker 1: it is. You often see it not evolving. You often
Speaker 1: see that somebody is searching for for example, you know,
Speaker 1: searching for a hit record or something, or a catchy
Speaker 1: song or something that gets me on the radio, makes
Speaker 1: me famous and stuff, in which case I just say
Speaker 1: bye because you've come to the wrong bloke.
Speaker 2: Do you do you get that is that I would
Speaker 2: you receive an email that said that, for example.
Speaker 3: Not an email that but you do an artist? Might?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: It might evolve that that's what they're looking for, you know.
Speaker 1: They want to think everything to be almost And I
Speaker 1: think that's that's a.
Speaker 3: Problem with.
Speaker 1: Songwriting in the in the modern pop age that nobody,
Speaker 1: nobody looks for albums. They just looks for track after
Speaker 1: track after track. Can you look for as many possibilities
Speaker 1: of getting something attractive on radio on streaming as possible?
Speaker 3: You don't.
Speaker 1: Ever, most people aren't searching for that interesting piano track
Speaker 1: on track seven. They're looking for every single song, every
Speaker 1: single experience to have the maximum commercial potential. And so
Speaker 1: if you're if I find myself in that situation, I
Speaker 1: just sort of think I either battle against it and
Speaker 1: try and do something different, and normally it just doesn't
Speaker 1: work out for me.
Speaker 2: In terms of that quote about going the opposite way
Speaker 2: of what the record label would like you to do. Sometimes,
Speaker 2: has it ever got you in real trouble?
Speaker 1: Trouble? Probably I've been in lots of trouble. Yeah, probably,
Speaker 1: I can't think of anything. I can't think of any
Speaker 1: specific examples, but yeah, you have to kick against things
Speaker 1: quite a lot of the time, probably a lot more
Speaker 1: when I was younger. But I just feel, I mean,
Speaker 1: where I'm at the moment, to be honest, in the
Speaker 1: last ten years, I'm sort of in control of everything
Speaker 1: that I do, and I just do my own thing, really,
Speaker 1: and I don't have those situations. Whenever a record company
Speaker 1: becomes involved now is because they want to work with
Speaker 1: something that I'm I'm already in that position where it's created,
Speaker 1: so they come to me in a way, you know,
Speaker 1: or or in the sense that they want to work
Speaker 1: with what I've got, you know, and people still of
Speaker 1: know they know who I am by now. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a problem, but it so I
Speaker 1: don't get into trouble.
Speaker 3: No, a lot.
Speaker 1: I don't get into trouble these days in that sense. No,
Speaker 1: probably have done in the past in yeah, various ways,
Speaker 1: trying to get out of doing podcasts or we never
Speaker 1: continue used to have them, but that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: Reading that old interview that you did for the mag
Speaker 2: one of the I learned a few things in it actually,
Speaker 2: and one of the things I learned because as I say,
Speaker 2: you were specifically talking about the Mcarman above the record.
Speaker 2: I didn't realize at the time. I think I was
Speaker 2: probably just a bit too young to be paying too
Speaker 2: much attention to it. But I didn't realize that the
Speaker 2: album came out originally after you'd split up. You put
Speaker 2: out the double A side single was an extension of
Speaker 2: the fact that I remember when you did that project
Speaker 2: and released Yes and.
Speaker 3: What was the other side? You do you do?
Speaker 2: The whole idea of that was you didn't want to tour,
Speaker 2: you didn't want to have merch.
Speaker 3: You didn't want to have a band name. You see,
Speaker 3: I got into a lot of trouble then, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Right, okay, yeah, so that was such I mean, that's
Speaker 2: something that that even now no one would really kind
Speaker 2: of dare to do. I don't think, but I mean,
Speaker 2: as I imagine back then, there was a lot of
Speaker 2: pushback about that moment. Did you just say like, okay,
Speaker 2: well actually this one wasn't what I was going to ask,
Speaker 2: but did how did how did that talk go? Did
Speaker 2: you just say, look, we're not we're not doing that.
Speaker 2: We've got these songs and we're just releasing.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean really at that time, me and David
Speaker 1: So we wrote this song, and I'd been in a
Speaker 1: successful group or a group where there was very a
Speaker 1: heightened sort of you know, public spectacle if you like,
Speaker 1: you know, and and and so everything was very in
Speaker 1: the public eye and very standard, if you like. And
Speaker 1: so I just wanted to do something that was the
Speaker 1: complete opposite, which is, I feel is a very natural
Speaker 1: thing to do, way to look at things, how to
Speaker 1: get away and just just do what you like doing
Speaker 1: and be incredibly creative and pure about it. And it
Speaker 1: was part of a process which I'm still on, you know,
Speaker 1: of trying to find the pure essence of what you
Speaker 1: do when you create something, and the pure integrity of something.
Speaker 1: So we just wanted to make like one of those
Speaker 1: Northern soul records where you just get like a what
Speaker 1: do they call it, a disco sleeve with just a
Speaker 1: hole in the middle and somebody's name penciled on it,
Speaker 1: and just you put it on and it's just sets
Speaker 1: the world on fire, you know, just lights up your
Speaker 1: stereo in this beautiful way, and you don't know who
Speaker 1: it is, and you don't know what they look like,
Speaker 1: and you never got to see them live or anything,
Speaker 1: but you just have this mysterious piece of beautiful pop music.
Speaker 1: That was the That was the kind of principle. David
Speaker 1: had been in a group as well. I'd been in
Speaker 1: the group. We didn't want to carry those that baggage
Speaker 1: in along to what we did, and we just had this.
Speaker 3: We just made this. We went off and did it
Speaker 3: on our own. Anyway.
Speaker 1: Nobody even knew we were doing it, and to be honest,
Speaker 1: at the time that it became a bit of a
Speaker 1: scramble about who wanted to do it. David record Company
Speaker 1: didn't want to put it out, but initially because they
Speaker 1: wanted to put a solo record out by David and
Speaker 1: that was their project, their big grand project. And so
Speaker 1: they sat on it for a long time and people
Speaker 1: started to hear it and just loved it, and it
Speaker 1: was a really reluctant thing that they ended up being
Speaker 1: put out. It took like six months, which in those
Speaker 1: days was a very long time towards sit on something
Speaker 1: for it to come out, and by that by the
Speaker 1: time it came out, I kind of moved on right,
Speaker 1: you know. I was like, all right, that's the way
Speaker 1: I felt about at the time, but you weren't really
Speaker 1: interested in this, so I'm off and I'll do something else.
Speaker 1: And they were just like, no, no, wait a minute, wait
Speaker 1: a minute, we want to do this. We think this
Speaker 1: will work. And they hadn't really got a hand a
Speaker 1: handle on David's solo. How to market David's as a
Speaker 1: solo something like that. Kay, it happened, and so it
Speaker 1: was really it's pretty insulting I felt at the time,
Speaker 1: you know, and so I just thought so when it
Speaker 1: came to releasing it, we they panicked and said, can
Speaker 1: you do some more songs?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: And we said sure, okay, when we did some B
Speaker 1: sides what you'd call B sides for the singles, and
Speaker 1: we said, well, we'll make yes and you do two
Speaker 1: different singles. We'll do that, but you know, that's all
Speaker 1: we're doing. And we and we went into a studio.
Speaker 1: We did a couple at home, and I didn't know
Speaker 1: what I was doing it, literally didn't know what I
Speaker 1: was doing with recording, and I recorded my bathroom and
Speaker 1: then we did a few a studio that spent a
Speaker 1: day recording. So that's really how it came out, and
Speaker 1: that's it, and so these were all put together, they
Speaker 1: were there. They were actually fantastic fun We were you know,
Speaker 1: we really love those songs. In the end, they had
Speaker 1: done such such a spirit of just like, just do something,
Speaker 1: do it quickly, get it done, and then move on,
Speaker 1: no plans at all, and that's why they were that
Speaker 1: there was never an album. And when You Do, Yes
Speaker 1: came out and and it was it was a hit,
Speaker 1: you know, people liked it. And then eventually You Do
Speaker 1: came out as well, the second one, the follow up,
Speaker 1: and they were just like, where's the album? Well, there
Speaker 1: wasn't it now. You didn't want to put this out.
Speaker 1: You know that that was never the plan. You know,
Speaker 1: it wasn't the plan, you know, and you didn't want
Speaker 1: anything to do with this. So you know, now it's
Speaker 1: a bit late. And that's the way I felt about
Speaker 1: it at the time. If you know, what if that
Speaker 1: happened now, but I'd probably think, hmm, okay, all right,
Speaker 1: well you could have said that, but okay, let's kind
Speaker 1: of sort things that, let's try and work this out.
Speaker 1: But I was, you know, I was young, and I
Speaker 1: was an idiot and or just having fun, you know,
Speaker 1: just like that age, and I just couldn't be asked
Speaker 1: if I'm honest, you know, I just thought, you know,
Speaker 1: and I found I just I was a bit sort
Speaker 1: of peed off with the fact that they just weren't interested.
Speaker 1: And I also thought, there's something's super cool about sticking
Speaker 1: to the plan that Okay, well I'm not going to
Speaker 1: do that and I'm going to stay. And I'm so
Speaker 1: proud that I did that. Yeah, absolutely, you.
Speaker 3: Know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it got me into a lot of trouble, like
Speaker 1: a lot of trouble. At the time, it was a nightmare.
Speaker 1: It got to be into trouble with daved, Me and
Speaker 1: David into trouble. We fell out about the whole thing
Speaker 1: because David obviously just was stuck in the middle and
Speaker 1: didn't know which way to go. And at that time
Speaker 1: it became very tense for both us because neither of
Speaker 1: us knew what we wanted to do, except we both
Speaker 1: loved this thing that we'd done, but we didn't know.
Speaker 1: He wanted to do his record and I want to
Speaker 1: do mine, and and yet we were both being forced.
Speaker 1: So we got into a lot of trouble. But I'm
Speaker 1: looking back and I just so it's a proud stand
Speaker 1: of mine. A standoff that I'm really proud of. Yeah,
Speaker 1: particularly when I was young and I was under immense
Speaker 1: pressure and I took a lot of shit over it.
Speaker 2: Just do you mean just from like the label side
Speaker 2: of things, or from fans and friends or were.
Speaker 3: They all just behind it?
Speaker 1: I mean there weren't any fans because we didn't do anything, okay,
Speaker 1: so you know, it wasn't like that we weren't that
Speaker 1: band who went on tour and which because we didn't friends, No,
Speaker 1: not at all, you know, But I know it's from
Speaker 1: the label and everyone around it and the London music
Speaker 1: scene at the time, and which already had me marked
Speaker 1: down as a villain already for walking out on a
Speaker 1: successful band, which I'm also very proud of, and this
Speaker 1: was like another another big, big black mark to stick
Speaker 1: next to me, to say he's a he's a wrong.
Speaker 3: And he's trouble.
Speaker 1: And I'm really proud of the fact that I was
Speaker 1: trouble at the time, and because I think I made good,
Speaker 1: brave decisions. And if I was to say to young
Speaker 1: people who were who are who want to be successful,
Speaker 1: don't make those decisions. But if I say to you,
Speaker 1: if I make young people who want to have an
Speaker 1: adventurous creative life. Apps if you if you don't do
Speaker 1: stuff like that, you will never really discover what's underneath.
Speaker 1: And I have, and I've gone on to have great
Speaker 1: creative adventures because I took those big made those big
Speaker 1: moves when I was young, and took the ship for
Speaker 1: it really and didn't just sit around in a band
Speaker 1: for one hundred years and just and have an easy ride,
Speaker 1: you know, have everyone pick me up, take me to
Speaker 1: a gig, play the same songs, go home, you know,
Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff. I was never interested in that.
Speaker 1: I've never done it. And I mean what I love
Speaker 1: about yes, and that with David. I mean, by the way,
Speaker 1: David's one of my best friends, you know, and we
Speaker 1: have been for a very long time since then, so
Speaker 1: he's I love the guy, you know. And what we
Speaker 1: love about it is that song does still exist in
Speaker 1: a vacuum. It exists in a place where people will say, God,
Speaker 1: I didn't know that was you, or I just love
Speaker 1: that song. They don't love it because they saw as
Speaker 1: tore it, or because they've had our poster on the
Speaker 1: wall or anything. They just love it because it's it
Speaker 1: makes them feel fantastic. You know, they don't really buy
Speaker 1: into the brand. You know, like you if you like
Speaker 1: Navan or if you like I don't know, Harry Styles
Speaker 1: or something. You buy into a brand, don't you that
Speaker 1: the song, the record, the album, the dance move, the video,
Speaker 1: you saw the concert, you know you followed it. You
Speaker 1: feel connected in that way to a brand that's more
Speaker 1: than the music. And that's a very there's nothing wrong
Speaker 1: with that. That happened to the Beatles and the Base,
Speaker 1: heat Rollers and everyone. You know, that's what we do
Speaker 1: when we connect with pop. But with this, no one
Speaker 1: connected with any of that and never has done because
Speaker 1: it wasn't there. They only connected with the wax on
Speaker 1: you know, on the record, and that's all they had.
Speaker 1: And that was my ideal, that was my vision. I
Speaker 1: thought that was my you know, this ridiculous purist sort
Speaker 1: of dream. When in Ireland when they had the referendum
Speaker 1: on gay marriage a number of years ago, at it
Speaker 1: was it was like kind of the anthem at the time.
Speaker 1: I remember going, we went there, David were there at
Speaker 1: the time, just after it, and we had no idea
Speaker 1: and it was yet it's called yes, and that it
Speaker 1: was all the yes vote, and that was such a
Speaker 1: powerful thing for us, obviously for David, you know, so,
Speaker 1: so yeah, I felt like I lost the battle and
Speaker 1: won the war.
Speaker 2: Like growing up, were you similar in terms of, like
Speaker 2: you say, to walk away from a really successful group
Speaker 2: and then to have this huge song and to not
Speaker 2: run after that and to not try and capitalize on
Speaker 2: that as well, and to say no, I want to
Speaker 2: do something else. Is that something that's always been in you?
Speaker 2: Because it's it to me that always feels like a
Speaker 2: very rare trait.
Speaker 1: I don't know where that comes from, a bit apart
Speaker 1: from maybe when I was growing up, I never thought
Speaker 1: to make music for a living, you know, I thought
Speaker 1: it would be a hobby. I never thought that it
Speaker 1: was possible. And what I did, and with the music
Speaker 1: that I listened to a lot of it was what
Speaker 1: you would now call the alternative at the time of
Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties, music that for me was just pop music.
Speaker 3: It wasn't you know.
Speaker 1: I listened to some some out there stuff, but generally
Speaker 1: the stuff I was listened to was was what I
Speaker 1: regarded as just exhilarating, beautiful pop music. And but the
Speaker 1: but was shunned by the mainstream generally at the time,
Speaker 1: it's easy to forget that groups like the Smiths and
Speaker 1: New Order and all those groups who are now elevated
Speaker 1: into legend, you know, Oh, they were always great. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: they weren't. They weren't played on the radio. They played
Speaker 1: the biggest show the Smith's ever played in London's Bricks
Speaker 1: and Academy and now it's the last show. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: they played that several a couple of times, and I
Speaker 1: was at that show. But you could see somebody playing
Speaker 1: Bricks and Academy tonight and you've never heard of them,
Speaker 1: you know, And so people will elevate the status. So
Speaker 1: that music at the time for me was really beautiful
Speaker 1: and it was it was what should be what we
Speaker 1: should all be listening to, but it wasn't. And so
Speaker 1: those a lot those characters were quite centric and took
Speaker 1: break brave moves and lived in a place where they
Speaker 1: didn't need to worry about the mainstream because it didn't
Speaker 1: really it didn't really accept them. And so I had
Speaker 1: a lot of influence of characters there, yeah, who shunned
Speaker 1: mainstream media, and and that was what part of what
Speaker 1: attracted to me.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: New Order famously wouldn't do interviews and did things very differently.
Speaker 1: If they did Top the Pops, they had to play
Speaker 1: live famously made yeah, quite obtuse decisions in what they did.
Speaker 1: New Order would leave their sequences when computer sequences music
Speaker 1: was very in its infancy, they'd leave it running and
Speaker 1: walk off the stage. Was the music played on by
Speaker 1: machines just just to wind people up and say, oh,
Speaker 1: they can't really play, you know, and which is largely true.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I was really attracted to people like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought it was funny and I thought it was cool,
Speaker 1: and that was part but that was part of my
Speaker 1: standard growing up. And I had good people around I've
Speaker 1: had good people around me. You know. My partner, my wife,
Speaker 1: has been around with me forever and she just has
Speaker 1: no real interest in the music industry. She just somebody
Speaker 1: likes records and Friday Night like like lots of us,
Speaker 1: do you know. So if she sees anything, she just says, well,
Speaker 1: term to fuck off, and.
Speaker 3: She's always done that. My wife's similar to that. Cool.
Speaker 1: Well, let's actually right, right, Okay, Well you know what
Speaker 1: that we know the battles that the stakes are higher
Speaker 1: in in outside of the world of where we live,
Speaker 1: you know, and so yeah, and I and that's always
Speaker 1: been and I think there's so many yes people in
Speaker 1: around media and entertainment and stuff that people who just
Speaker 1: do a bit more flippant are more realistic about stuff.
Speaker 1: So I don't know, I never thought, you know, again,
Speaker 1: I'm not I don't want to make a thing because
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm that that outrageous of anything. You know,
Speaker 1: I really like talking to I'm really I'm really happy
Speaker 1: that to talk about things like this and what I've
Speaker 1: done in my career is a nice thing to be in.
Speaker 1: It suggests that people have heard it and enjoyed it,
Speaker 1: and that's what's what's to not like about that, you know,
Speaker 1: And that's nice. So I don't ever think it's been
Speaker 1: maybe where I am now, it's now it's kind of accepted.
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm kind of accepted now. And it's
Speaker 1: taken thirty years to get that through that people aren't
Speaker 1: now putting a black market on me and saying he's
Speaker 1: a wrong and actually saying, actually this that's quite good.
Speaker 1: You know, that's quite cool as it turns out. But
Speaker 1: it was it's been hard work, yeah, arrived, well, you know,
Speaker 1: just well, I've survived.
Speaker 2: And I mean I've always got the impression you are
Speaker 2: the least nostalgic person. Is that fair to say?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not very nostalgia. I mean I might be
Speaker 1: nostalgic about TV I watch or something like that, you know,
Speaker 1: like any of us, but I'm not. I mean again,
Speaker 1: I don't think it's that obtuse. So I think it's
Speaker 1: important to encourage people to fresh, refresh all the time,
Speaker 1: into channel, just keep moving. I think as an artistic person,
Speaker 1: you have to keep moving. That's the whole point. You
Speaker 1: have to keep it. And then the analogy is always
Speaker 1: that we're we're constantly our skin cells are constantly dying
Speaker 1: and constantly being born, and every that means every part
Speaker 1: of our body and our existence is traveling in time
Speaker 1: and moving and regenerating all the time. And therefore, as
Speaker 1: an artist in any way, you've got to you've got
Speaker 1: to go with that. And the minute you stop and
Speaker 1: just sit back on your greatest hits and going on
Speaker 1: about the good old days, it's just it's it just
Speaker 1: puts you in inertia, you know, it's it's it stamps
Speaker 1: you in a place. And again, that is very difficult
Speaker 1: people love nostalgia. People want to talk to me about
Speaker 1: the good old days, and they don't. They just want
Speaker 1: to hear that, you know, and I understand it. But
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean I'm going to give in and do
Speaker 1: it just to please other people. You know. It's because,
Speaker 1: like I said today, but today, I've been up recording
Speaker 1: violin all day for a record. Last night, I was
Speaker 1: doing a TV show with a record that's just about
Speaker 1: to come out. It goes on and on from there.
Speaker 1: Everything about that is even the thing I was doing
Speaker 1: today is completely different from what I was doing last night,
Speaker 1: and that's something coming out next year, and it goes
Speaker 1: on and on. That's what makes me, you know, it's
Speaker 1: my life. Yeah, that's what I do. I feel like people.
Speaker 1: I feel like, at the end of the day, that's
Speaker 1: what people should want me to do, right. You know,
Speaker 1: if I said, oh, what if you're only new records
Speaker 1: and no I just sit and listen to the old ones.
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, no, I know exactly what you mean.
Speaker 1: No one's going to like that. So I think, well, okay, well,
Speaker 1: you know it's.
Speaker 2: Got an image if you just sat there listening to
Speaker 2: those first two swed down and doing nothing else not
Speaker 2: leaving the house. I don't listen to any of my records,
Speaker 2: do you not know? As soon as they're done, they're
Speaker 2: done and done and that's it. So how did the
Speaker 2: new record with Jesse Buckley come together? I mean, first
Speaker 2: of all, how did you how did you meet her? Well,
Speaker 2: Jesse was introduced by somebody who was looking after her
Speaker 2: and trying to find opportunities of her in music that
Speaker 2: she might like. And she didn't really want to go
Speaker 2: off and become an R and B star or pop
Speaker 2: star writing lots of pop hits or anything like that.
Speaker 1: I don't you know. She's a beautiful, wandering, adventurous soul and.
Speaker 3: From that she.
Speaker 1: Didn't really I don't think she could write down what
Speaker 1: she wanted to do. But everyone knows she's extraordinarily talented
Speaker 1: in every area, and so when it came to singing,
Speaker 1: it's about finding somewhere or someone and she could who
Speaker 1: could help bring something to life, you know. So we
Speaker 1: were introduced by a guy called Paul Sminiki and Jesse
Speaker 1: just I was I got Jesse's numb and said I'll
Speaker 1: give her a call, and I phoned her and she
Speaker 1: was on FaceTime and she was outdoors. She was walking
Speaker 1: and it was windy, and she was up clearly upper
Speaker 1: mountain or something, and I said, I said where are in?
Speaker 1: I'm upper mountain. I said, right, okay, great, So where's
Speaker 1: the mountain?
Speaker 3: Said?
Speaker 1: Oh, it's an island and I said, right, okay, lovely,
Speaker 1: Well I imagine that because I know you're Irish. Jesse,
Speaker 1: come on, where an island? Said oh, you wouldn't know.
Speaker 1: It's the west of Ireland, place called Kerry. And I said,
Speaker 1: I know Kerry. Yeah, I know Kerry and said you
Speaker 1: do and I said, I said yeah, where where are you?
Speaker 1: And carry and said I'm in Killarney. You wouldn't know it.
Speaker 1: And I said, I know Callaney as well, and I
Speaker 1: do know Kerry. And we just started talking about that
Speaker 1: area of island. I basically when we were my parents
Speaker 1: were Irish and when we were kids we used to
Speaker 1: go and stay down there and carry in an island
Speaker 1: called Valentia Island, which is just magical. We just started
Speaker 1: talking like that. We're just That's always how it's been
Speaker 1: with me and Jesse. We just talk about stuff. Eventually
Speaker 1: she came up to London and during one of the lockdowns,
Speaker 1: had we just sat in my kitchen and wrote a
Speaker 1: song and that was it and we off we went
Speaker 1: and she said, when we finished writing the song, we
Speaker 1: recorded it on our phones, just just a very simple version,
Speaker 1: just a strum, guitar and her singing, no microphone, was
Speaker 1: no studio, and then I just thought I left it.
Speaker 1: And then she she said, do you want to do
Speaker 1: that again? And I was like, yeah, let's do that again.
Speaker 1: And that kept happening, and it happened for thirteen weeks
Speaker 1: and we wrote thirteen songs and yeah, so that's that's
Speaker 1: how that's how it happened with Jesse.
Speaker 3: And an Eventure.
Speaker 2: I mean, that is that is the that becomes the
Speaker 2: album for all our Days That Tear the Heart. I mean,
Speaker 2: her voice is incredible, Like it's she's got such an
Speaker 2: amazing voice. I'm guessing, like does that make it easier?
Speaker 3: I mean I'm not expecting to say, oh, yeah, I've
Speaker 3: worked with have.
Speaker 4: Some terrible singers in the past, But when the person
Speaker 4: you're working with has that in them, does it Does
Speaker 4: it make it easier?
Speaker 2: And also do you have a sort of when you
Speaker 2: work with somebody like would it have been enough for
Speaker 2: her voice to be incredible but for there to have
Speaker 2: not been some sort of connection between you.
Speaker 1: When you meet a great voice, you don't meet somebody
Speaker 1: who could do vocal gymnastics. You meet somebody who you
Speaker 1: connect with, and you connect with the voice, you connect
Speaker 1: with the person. It's as simple as that. So you
Speaker 1: know when we talk of the great voice, and you
Speaker 1: watched one of those, you know, the dreadful programs about voices,
Speaker 1: and you know, it's all about the scales and how
Speaker 1: perfectly you're in tune and all that kind of stuff,
Speaker 1: and I just I'm not interested in anything like that.
Speaker 3: Really.
Speaker 1: Jesse is technically incredible with her voice anyway, which as
Speaker 1: a starting point is pretty great. Yeah, it's it's like
Speaker 1: it's something that you just don't Yeah, you don't consider.
Speaker 1: But what you when you connect with somebody, you connect
Speaker 1: with the tone, You connect with the delivery and obviously
Speaker 1: the way they want to use words and and and
Speaker 1: you connect that. For me, what I connect with is
Speaker 1: is the personality and the soul of somebody.
Speaker 2: At what point then does it go from maybe feeling
Speaker 2: like it's Jesse Buckley solo album and becomes a joint
Speaker 2: venture with with.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it was it was for me. It
Speaker 1: was always was just Jesse's record, and she asked that
Speaker 1: I get I do it.
Speaker 3: Was have my name on it as well.
Speaker 1: I think I think partly she just wanted didn't want
Speaker 1: the whole thing on her, and partly because we just
Speaker 1: became really close and a partnership with a vision that
Speaker 1: went beyond just here's here's a couple of tunes.
Speaker 2: It's a it's a really beautiful record, and it's so
Speaker 2: kind of grand in places and so kind of intimate
Speaker 2: in others. Was there thinking back to like that Mcarman
Speaker 2: and Butler record for example? You knew what you wanted
Speaker 2: that project to be, and it very much wanted to
Speaker 2: be a particular a thing. And you know, as we've
Speaker 2: spoken about, did you have is there an aim for
Speaker 2: this record?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean they're not that far off. They're not
Speaker 1: that dissimilar in that sort of quite idealistic vision and
Speaker 1: approach and a very purest approach to making it. I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously David's was that, Yes, was very much about it
Speaker 1: being a pop moment, and that was you know, very
Speaker 1: clear we wanted it to be that kind of pop record.
Speaker 1: This I don't want to put any We don't put
Speaker 1: any kind of musical genre on it, but we it's
Speaker 1: very much about It's about a distillation of where we
Speaker 1: were at that moment, and each moment that we wrote
Speaker 1: a song being able to describe that moment, and they
Speaker 1: were strange times we were living through. We all lived through, yeah,
Speaker 1: trying to express jointly how we came together. It's an
Speaker 1: interesting thing when you write, you don't you don't. You
Speaker 1: know when people, perhaps in your magazine you might have said,
Speaker 1: what did you write that song about? What's that song about?
Speaker 1: My favorite song? What's that about? And they'll tell you,
Speaker 1: and I always say, no, no, it's not, because you're
Speaker 1: just you're It's very easy to do it, to assume
Speaker 1: that definition or that narrative after the event. But at
Speaker 1: the time, I don't think it's important for a song
Speaker 1: to be about something. I think it's what it should
Speaker 1: be about, is about pulling the feelings in a way
Speaker 1: that other people have the possibility to keep interpreting. That's
Speaker 1: what a really great song is for me. Wichitar line man,
Speaker 1: who the hell is wichitar line man? What the hell
Speaker 1: is that? The line man for the county? Who really
Speaker 1: knows what the lineman for the county? But we all
Speaker 1: adore that song, you know, and it means it has
Speaker 1: such feeling and potency and it has beautiful individe your
Speaker 1: lines in that within that song that just kill me.
Speaker 1: But why it's about this guy putting the lines up
Speaker 1: the telegraph lines?
Speaker 3: I think it is or something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it is that that's not important, you know.
Speaker 1: So it's about it putting these individual images and throwing
Speaker 1: images at people that you can absorb into your life
Speaker 1: and your your experience and interpret the way you want to.
Speaker 3: And I think that's that's what the goal was for this.
Speaker 2: Are there songs that with that in mind? Are there
Speaker 2: songs out there that you love.
Speaker 3: That you are desperate to know what they're about? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I think about I'm not really desperate, if I'm honest,
Speaker 1: And maybe that's because of I'm in that experience myself
Speaker 1: a lot of the time. Yeah, I often think about
Speaker 1: what is that about? What's going on there?
Speaker 3: And I trying to.
Speaker 1: Switch it off? Yeah, I often just switch it off.
Speaker 1: I don't really I don't really care something's about. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was thinking about this slat. There's this beautiful song
Speaker 1: called Midair by Paul Buchanan. Paul Buchanan was in the
Speaker 1: Blue Nile and it's one of my favorite ever songs.
Speaker 1: And I was asked to choose this as a song
Speaker 1: I loved recently and I and it made me think.
Speaker 1: And I can be asked what the song is about
Speaker 1: because I love it so much, and again, I love
Speaker 1: certain lines in it. I don't really know. I couldn't
Speaker 1: tell you what it's about the whole thing, and you
Speaker 1: have no desire to know. But I wouldn't fred no,
Speaker 1: and I wouldn't ask the artist or anything like that.
Speaker 1: I don't really have that desire no to do that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and often with artists who I could ask those questions
Speaker 1: and I don't want to go on it. I don't
Speaker 1: want to go there with them. Yeah, I do tend to.
Speaker 1: I tend to never ask an artist what a song's
Speaker 1: about it, but I do tend to. I'm kind of
Speaker 1: suppressing what I really want to ask. I do always
Speaker 1: want to know.
Speaker 2: But because I know that they obviously a lot of
Speaker 2: time they don't want to talk about that, which I
Speaker 2: completely understand as well as.
Speaker 1: Also because that's given you the opportunity to keep it
Speaker 1: circling your brain, which keeps it fresh. Yeah, if they
Speaker 1: just said, oh, it's about that bloke you know, or
Speaker 1: somebody famous or something you'd just be you'd probably be like.
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, yeah, I've got a friend called I've got
Speaker 2: a friend called Swan. His name is his name is Wayne.
Speaker 2: I met him at University's first person. I'm at university
Speaker 2: and I and I introduced myself and he said, oh,
Speaker 2: my name is Wayne, but everyone calls me Swan. And
Speaker 2: to this day, I don't know why he's called Swan.
Speaker 2: I've never known, but it's got It got to a
Speaker 2: point where he said, look, if I tell you why,
Speaker 2: it's never going to be as good as what you've
Speaker 2: got in your mind.
Speaker 3: Like it's going to be.
Speaker 2: It's just going to be how someone's misheard me and
Speaker 2: thought I said Swan instead of Wayne. It's going to
Speaker 2: be something so unremarkable. So yeah, it's a great mystery
Speaker 2: in my life. Though, if Swan you are, if you
Speaker 2: are listening, I still do want to know. I'm thinking
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 3: Swan. I thought I had it.
Speaker 2: At one point I text him in the middle of
Speaker 2: the night because I thought I'd worked it, and it
Speaker 2: turns out I hadn't. With Jesse, you did play you
Speaker 2: played one, you played a show, didn't you at the
Speaker 2: We did at the Green Now, how how was it?
Speaker 2: It's a very small venue. It's the one on Parkway. Yes,
Speaker 2: great tiny venue, amazing place. Until that point, when was
Speaker 2: the last time you had played like a show when
Speaker 2: you played in a show?
Speaker 1: Me? I mean, I played quite a few shows in
Speaker 1: the last year on my own, and I'm working towards
Speaker 1: my own solo project again, and I have been doing
Speaker 1: that for the last year or so, so I've done
Speaker 1: quite a few shows my own. I think my last
Speaker 1: show i've ALWASO got a project, a project that hite
Speaker 1: that name, but it is a kind of a thing
Speaker 1: with Norman Blake from Teenage Fan Club and James Grant,
Speaker 1: who was in the group called Love and Money, two
Speaker 1: Scottish singers. We were put together for the Celtic Connections festival.
Speaker 1: Somebody said, do you want to come and do it
Speaker 1: like a Roalm circle with these two guys for the night.
Speaker 1: And I know Norman already and I love his song.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm the biggest Teenage fang Club song a fan,
Speaker 1: so I jumped at it and I said, yeah, sure,
Speaker 1: let's do that.
Speaker 3: And we did it one night. It's sold out.
Speaker 1: We did another night, and then we went and did
Speaker 1: another night, and then the three of us said, you
Speaker 1: know what, we've We're in this now. We should we
Speaker 1: should keep doing this because it's a lot of fun,
Speaker 1: and it is a lot of fun, and it's a
Speaker 1: really really lovely night. You get to it's literally three
Speaker 1: of us sitting and I sing a song, Norman sings
Speaker 1: a song, James sings a song, and we all play
Speaker 1: on each other's songs and it goes round like that.
Speaker 1: It's brilliant fun because you look down the set list
Speaker 1: and you're just thinking, there's some great songs here and
Speaker 1: they're not mine that I can't wait to play everything
Speaker 1: flows it's going to be brilliant because I love that
Speaker 1: song and I'm like, wow, here I am with Norman.
Speaker 1: Are you happiest when you're collaborating. I find doing my
Speaker 1: own thing very very rewarding in a different way, but
Speaker 1: it's it has an extra intensity that can put me
Speaker 1: into a dark place, just like of anything you do.
Speaker 1: You know, if you have anything that any of us do,
Speaker 1: if it's if it's very solo and intense, you know
Speaker 1: you need to break out of that every now and then.
Speaker 1: I honestly I like all of the things I do.
Speaker 3: I'm really I like.
Speaker 1: I love the fact that I have the opportunity to
Speaker 1: go in every.
Speaker 2: Direction because you're not. You're someone that strikes me as collaborating.
Speaker 2: Is what I always think of when I think a
Speaker 2: burner butler, because you know, you've done so many different
Speaker 2: projects and produce so many people, but you obviously really
Speaker 2: know kind of what you what you want, and you
Speaker 2: kind of you know, you make big calls and as
Speaker 2: we've already spoken about, would you call yourself you can't
Speaker 2: be a control freak?
Speaker 3: Or are you?
Speaker 1: I mean, I just don't believe in that term, right,
Speaker 1: you know, I just don't believe in it. I love
Speaker 1: people who have vision and who can artake what they want,
Speaker 1: and I love watching I tend whenever I meet people
Speaker 1: like that, particularly in my field. They're people who who
Speaker 1: are good at delegating and bringing people in. They're the
Speaker 1: people who are great at bringing you in and making
Speaker 1: you feel involved and finding your place. I mean, the
Speaker 1: nasty side of a control freak is somebody that actually
Speaker 1: wants to be on their own and just keeps everybody out,
Speaker 1: and so that that's not a collaborator at all. So
Speaker 1: collaboration is all about bringing making people feel making making
Speaker 1: people find a place that where they are at their best,
Speaker 1: where they understand the vision and they can enjoy the
Speaker 1: vision as much as you and express it, express what
Speaker 1: you need to do. So no, I don't, I don't.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I've got a strong vision and strong
Speaker 1: opinion of what I do, But I don't think that's
Speaker 1: It's like not in a nasty thing. You're not going
Speaker 1: around whipping people, you know, It's it's all with a
Speaker 1: hug at the end of it.
Speaker 3: The best, the best thing it.
Speaker 1: Ever is that when you say, oh, you're really known
Speaker 1: as a collaborator, but you know, actually with the biggest struggle,
Speaker 1: of course, is that I'm known for being in one
Speaker 1: group twenty eight years ago. But actually for you to
Speaker 1: say that to me, it's just the hugest thing, because
Speaker 1: it's the polar opposite of just being in a group
Speaker 1: and doing nothing else. So and actually might for me.
Speaker 1: My story is all as you say, it's all about
Speaker 1: having gone through a million adventures with a million people,
Speaker 1: and that's what I love. Mean, I love being around people.
Speaker 1: On stage last night, I had fourteen people choir strings,
Speaker 1: all sorts of people, and it was just such a joy,
Speaker 1: you know, because it is me bringing people together, or
Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of is my job to pick
Speaker 1: musicians and find them and put them together and give
Speaker 1: them a explain the vision you know that I need.
Speaker 1: But it's also my job to make sure that they're
Speaker 1: loving it, because that we're all having fun together, you
Speaker 1: know that, because that is that comes across.
Speaker 3: Is there anything we've missed?
Speaker 1: Well, what could you possibly have missed about me?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: My, my, my absolute torture of having to go through
Speaker 1: Arsenal as a as a Arsenal fan.
Speaker 3: Quite currently. It was night.
Speaker 1: It was a very bad night, but you know what,
Speaker 1: I was doing a live TV show and knowing that
Speaker 1: I was going to miss Arsenal, and I just had
Speaker 1: to I wrote it off and just turn my phone
Speaker 1: off and it was fine. And when I finished at
Speaker 1: the end of the night and found out what happened,
Speaker 1: the first thing I thought is, how can it be
Speaker 1: easier for me to play music quite intense, you know,
Speaker 1: quite demanding music live on TV? How can that be
Speaker 1: easier and more comfortable than watching a football match? And
Speaker 1: yet I would do it over and over again. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I mean that's I'm yes, that's that's my torture,
Speaker 1: my happy torture.
Speaker 3: I'm an evident fan. Oh.
Speaker 2: For previous episodes of Midnight Chat, simply search your podcast
Speaker 2: app and don't forget to follow or subscribe in order
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Speaker 2: For more information on the music magazine that makes this series,
Speaker 2: visit loud and Quiet dot com. Anyway, goodnight,