WEBVTT - Ep 116: Bernard Butler

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<v Speaker 1>This was like another big, big black mark to stick

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<v Speaker 1>next to me, to say he's a wrongman.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello again, and welcome to Midnight Chats, a podcast of

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<v Speaker 2>informal interviews with leading musicians, published weekly at midnight to

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<v Speaker 2>suit the mood of these very informal conversations. This week's

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<v Speaker 2>episode is hosted by me Stuart Stubbs, editor of Loud.

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<v Speaker 3>And Quiet magazine.

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<v Speaker 2>Tonight, my guest is Bernard Butler, and here is what

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<v Speaker 2>I've decided you need.

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<v Speaker 3>To know about him.

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<v Speaker 2>In nineteen ninety four, Bernard famously walked out of the

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<v Speaker 2>band Swede, who at that point were kind of on

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<v Speaker 2>the top of the world, had already released their self

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<v Speaker 2>titled debut album and their second dog Man Start was

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<v Speaker 2>almost complete at a point when Bernard decided to walk

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<v Speaker 2>away from the group. He spent the twenty eight years

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<v Speaker 2>since being something of a king collaborator as both a

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<v Speaker 2>songwriter and producer. The artists he's worked with include Edwin Collins,

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<v Speaker 2>Nana Cherry, The Libertines, Pet Shop Boys, Paloma Faith, The Cribs,

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<v Speaker 2>Tim Booth, Roy Orbison, and Tricky, to name just a few.

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<v Speaker 2>Perhaps most famously of all, though Bernard co produced and

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<v Speaker 2>co wrote part of Duffy's debut album Rock Ferry, for

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<v Speaker 2>which he won a Grammy in two thousand and eight.

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<v Speaker 2>Having now met Bernard to record this episode of Midnight Chats,

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<v Speaker 2>I get the feeling those sort of big awards are

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<v Speaker 2>not really what he's all about, and we do talk

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit about his unorthodox approach to his music career.

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<v Speaker 2>We also spend a decent chunk of our time talking

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<v Speaker 2>about one song in particular, which Bernard wrote and released

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<v Speaker 2>with David McColman called Yes. That was straight after he

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<v Speaker 2>left Swede, and I've added a link to the song

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<v Speaker 2>in the show notes of this episode for you to

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<v Speaker 2>either reacquaint yourself with it or perhaps hear it for

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<v Speaker 2>the first time. Maybe you want to do that now

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<v Speaker 2>before you carry on, or maybe save it till the end,

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<v Speaker 2>But either way, it's always a treat to hear Yes.

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<v Speaker 3>By McColeman and Butler.

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<v Speaker 2>Bernard's newest work, though, is an album with singer and

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<v Speaker 2>actor Jesse Buckley, called for All Our Days that Tear

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<v Speaker 2>the Heart. It came out just a couple of weeks

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<v Speaker 2>ago in mid June twenty twenty two. It's a lovely

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<v Speaker 2>record and Jesse's voice is incredible on it. It reminds

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<v Speaker 2>me a little bit of Laura Marlin, a friend of

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<v Speaker 2>the podcast, of course, as is Bernard's old bandmatee Brett Anderson.

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<v Speaker 3>I've linked to.

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<v Speaker 2>Our episodes with both of those artists below because I

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<v Speaker 2>am an opportunist, and that's about as much as I

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<v Speaker 2>think you need to know. If you enjoy the episode,

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<v Speaker 2>please do tell a friend and share the podcast around.

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<v Speaker 2>It really helps us out. And if you really enjoy it,

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<v Speaker 2>there is also a link down there where you can

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<v Speaker 2>make a small donation to help the running costs of

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<v Speaker 2>this show. This is Bernard Butler on Midnight Chats, episode

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<v Speaker 2>one hundred and six. You know, I always used to

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<v Speaker 2>start this podcast asked, because of the name, asking people

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<v Speaker 2>if they're nighttime people, if they're nocturnal and by nature.

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<v Speaker 2>And I stopped asking that question mainly because it's quite

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<v Speaker 2>a bad question, but also because we're interviewing musicians. They

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<v Speaker 2>all just said yes because they tend to be touring

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<v Speaker 2>and it's a it's a nighttime pursuit. But as a

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<v Speaker 2>man who tends to make records more than two of

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<v Speaker 2>them heavily.

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<v Speaker 3>Are you? How about you? How do how is this

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<v Speaker 3>question valid?

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<v Speaker 1>All of a sudden, I don't stay up all night, No,

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<v Speaker 1>for sure, never really did. To be honest, I don't

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<v Speaker 1>like it. No, I'm pretty my sort of creative. It

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<v Speaker 1>sounds really pretentious about that. You'll create a moment quite

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of the time are first thing in the morning.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm pretty good to have wide awake with with ideas

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<v Speaker 1>and then want to run back. And then I sort

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<v Speaker 1>of slump in the middle of the day. So not

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<v Speaker 1>really nolternal. I mean I stay up.

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<v Speaker 3>What do I do?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I never go to sleep before about half eleven.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know what standard or not. My wife is

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<v Speaker 1>a teacher and she goes out to battle at six

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<v Speaker 1>point thirty every morning, and I see it go off

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<v Speaker 1>on a bike, and she's just like an absolute trooper,

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<v Speaker 1>and so she's always asleep before me for obvious reasons.

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<v Speaker 1>And so I tend to sort of, yeah, just watch

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<v Speaker 1>nonsense TV and weird documentaries and stuff. But I know

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not somebody who'd want to step I really don't

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<v Speaker 1>like seeing the light like darts turn into light.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean neither.

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<v Speaker 1>I have a real problem with that. And so when

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<v Speaker 1>I was young and we did stupid things. That always

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<v Speaker 1>was a real bother for me.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it always I'm exactly the same. I always felt

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<v Speaker 2>like it had ruined the next day. The next day

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<v Speaker 2>is just a rite off. Now, as soon as you

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<v Speaker 2>see the sun exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I was okay staying up late, but if you

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<v Speaker 1>saw that happened, you thought, oh, no, I've done this wrong.

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<v Speaker 1>I've done this again, you know, And so I really

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<v Speaker 1>don't like that. I don't like staying up. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>like waking up in the night, and I tend to

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<v Speaker 1>get I don't know if it's an age thing, but

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<v Speaker 1>I definitely get at this point in life if I

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<v Speaker 1>if I wake, you get real hebgb's and really irrational thoughts.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think post COVID actually, and having had that

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<v Speaker 1>at least twice, it's definitely something that affected me. Waking

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<v Speaker 1>up and having very irrational thoughts that really scare me.

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<v Speaker 1>And I've written a lot about that. Actually, that that

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<v Speaker 1>kind of period, and then you get to the next

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<v Speaker 1>morning you just think, Jesus, what the hell was I thinking?

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, what am I on about? You know?

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<v Speaker 1>But things that I'm not talking about dreams or nightmares

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<v Speaker 1>and thinking being wide awake and just not having a

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<v Speaker 1>grip on reality. So I really don't like it. No,

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<v Speaker 1>I really like sleep, and I really love just a

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<v Speaker 1>proper good night's sleep.

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<v Speaker 2>So you tend to You're in bed at half eleven,

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<v Speaker 2>and then you wake up and are you straight in

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<v Speaker 2>the studio because you've got a studio at home?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah? I work from home.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so do you? Is that your first you go

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<v Speaker 2>straight to Sue and you get and as you say,

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<v Speaker 2>most of your kind of good ideas come in the morning.

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<v Speaker 3>An awful lot of it. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>And my studios next to the shower, and it's not

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<v Speaker 1>unusual for me to come out of the shower or

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<v Speaker 1>run the shower, which is even worse, and then think

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<v Speaker 1>I'll have a fiddle and then end up thinking I've

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<v Speaker 1>run the shower for twenty minutes and not I'm still

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<v Speaker 1>in my pants, you know, and or something stupid like that. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>because I sort of feel awake at that moment, really alive.

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<v Speaker 1>Just picture that.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a beautiful image. It's a beautiful image. Yesterday, knowing

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<v Speaker 2>that we were meeting today, I reread an interview that

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<v Speaker 2>you gave our magazine actually in twenty fifteen. It was

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<v Speaker 2>around the time that you were doing the reissue of

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<v Speaker 2>Sounds of the Sound of Calman and Butler, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>a really good interview. I forgot how good it was,

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<v Speaker 2>but there was a line in it that you said

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<v Speaker 2>that really made me laugh. That said you said, if

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<v Speaker 2>a red label ever asked me to do anything, I

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<v Speaker 2>always do the compolar opposite. Hmmm, Well is that still

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<v Speaker 2>the case. Well, it depends what it is. If it's

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<v Speaker 2>doing the Loud and Quiet podcast, then I hear, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>say no, yeah, probably can't imagine the context of a

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<v Speaker 2>few years ago, but probably what I was referring to

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<v Speaker 2>is the sort Well, I think it's a good it's

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<v Speaker 2>a good thing to have a spirit of you could

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<v Speaker 2>call it rebellion's which is a little bit, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit potentious, probably not quite true, but I

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<v Speaker 2>mean it's questioning. I like to question things, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and I like to challenge things, for sure. Yeah, I

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<v Speaker 2>think at the moment, you know, at the moment, I've

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<v Speaker 2>got a record company around me and working with the

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<v Speaker 2>project of Jesse Buckley and who were just the dream

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<v Speaker 2>they are. Everyone is fantastic and I really really enjoy

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<v Speaker 2>and really trust. I think it's a situational trust you know,

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<v Speaker 2>you've become very very quickly aware around people who you trust,

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<v Speaker 2>and you trust style and taste and ideas, and from there,

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<v Speaker 2>there's definitely been points when it's been really healthy for

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<v Speaker 2>me to not trust those situations. And of course, as

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<v Speaker 2>you grow by not trusting other people, you have to

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<v Speaker 2>formulate your own ideas and your own vision, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think that's entirely healthy. So I always think with young people,

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<v Speaker 2>I always encourage them that. Quite often, if I'm asked

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<v Speaker 2>to work with a young person, you know, a young

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<v Speaker 2>singer or a writer or something like that. What really

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<v Speaker 2>irritates me is if a record company with the attached

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<v Speaker 2>email or manager attached emails saying, you know, can you

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<v Speaker 2>give them some direction, you know, and give them some vision?

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<v Speaker 2>And I just said, have you asked them what their

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<v Speaker 2>vision is? Because I bet you haven't. You know, you're

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<v Speaker 2>you're asking old geezer to you know, do that. But

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<v Speaker 2>everybody's got it. It's about having the the guts to

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<v Speaker 2>articulate that vision. And we all have creative ideas. Whoever

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<v Speaker 2>we are, whatever we do in life, we all have

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<v Speaker 2>potential and it's about tapping into it. So I just

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<v Speaker 2>always encourage that with as as an artist to challenge

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<v Speaker 2>myself and challenge everyone around me and challenge my decisions.

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<v Speaker 2>I just have a checklist of things that I'm always thinking,

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<v Speaker 2>have I checked that side of what I'm doing in

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<v Speaker 2>a certain situation? And that you get that from experience

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<v Speaker 2>and learning. It's not It sounds more. It sounds patronizing

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<v Speaker 2>to say that about a label or something, but really

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's about using people's strengths.

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<v Speaker 3>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>So is that the first thing you say to an

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<v Speaker 2>artist when they come to you when you're going to

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<v Speaker 2>work together. How does that is that? The first question

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<v Speaker 2>you say is what is your vision? What do you

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<v Speaker 2>want to do? Where do you see this going?

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't ask the question. I try and find out.

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<v Speaker 1>I try and I try and see if it comes out.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not like something you want to write down a

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<v Speaker 1>piece of paper, and you know, it's not like an interview,

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<v Speaker 1>and you want to see if that's evolving, and normally

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<v Speaker 1>it is. You often see it not evolving. You often

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<v Speaker 1>see that somebody is searching for for example, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>searching for a hit record or something, or a catchy

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<v Speaker 1>song or something that gets me on the radio, makes

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<v Speaker 1>me famous and stuff, in which case I just say

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<v Speaker 1>bye because you've come to the wrong bloke.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you do you get that is that I would

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<v Speaker 2>you receive an email that said that, for example.

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<v Speaker 3>Not an email that but you do an artist? Might?

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<v Speaker 3>You know?

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<v Speaker 1>It might evolve that that's what they're looking for, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>They want to think everything to be almost And I

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<v Speaker 1>think that's that's a.

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<v Speaker 3>Problem with.

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<v Speaker 1>Songwriting in the in the modern pop age that nobody,

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<v Speaker 1>nobody looks for albums. They just looks for track after

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<v Speaker 1>track after track. Can you look for as many possibilities

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<v Speaker 1>of getting something attractive on radio on streaming as possible?

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<v Speaker 3>You don't.

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<v Speaker 1>Ever, most people aren't searching for that interesting piano track

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<v Speaker 1>on track seven. They're looking for every single song, every

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<v Speaker 1>single experience to have the maximum commercial potential. And so

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<v Speaker 1>if you're if I find myself in that situation, I

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<v Speaker 1>just sort of think I either battle against it and

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<v Speaker 1>try and do something different, and normally it just doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>work out for me.

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<v Speaker 2>In terms of that quote about going the opposite way

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<v Speaker 2>of what the record label would like you to do. Sometimes,

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<v Speaker 2>has it ever got you in real trouble?

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<v Speaker 1>Trouble? Probably I've been in lots of trouble. Yeah, probably,

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<v Speaker 1>I can't think of anything. I can't think of any

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<v Speaker 1>specific examples, but yeah, you have to kick against things

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<v Speaker 1>quite a lot of the time, probably a lot more

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<v Speaker 1>when I was younger. But I just feel, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>where I'm at the moment, to be honest, in the

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<v Speaker 1>last ten years, I'm sort of in control of everything

0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:54.240
<v Speaker 1>that I do, and I just do my own thing, really,

0:11:54.640 --> 0:12:00.000
<v Speaker 1>and I don't have those situations. Whenever a record company

0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.280
<v Speaker 1>becomes involved now is because they want to work with

0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:05.840
<v Speaker 1>something that I'm I'm already in that position where it's created,

0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:09.160
<v Speaker 1>so they come to me in a way, you know,

0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:12.160
<v Speaker 1>or or in the sense that they want to work

0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:15.080
<v Speaker 1>with what I've got, you know, and people still of

0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:17.439
<v Speaker 1>know they know who I am by now. Yeah, so

0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:18.880
<v Speaker 1>I don't think it's a problem, but it so I

0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:19.840
<v Speaker 1>don't get into trouble.

0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:20.719
<v Speaker 3>No, a lot.

0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:23.160
<v Speaker 1>I don't get into trouble these days in that sense. No,

0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:27.439
<v Speaker 1>probably have done in the past in yeah, various ways,

0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:30.559
<v Speaker 1>trying to get out of doing podcasts or we never

0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:32.679
<v Speaker 1>continue used to have them, but that kind of stuff.

0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:36.280
<v Speaker 2>Reading that old interview that you did for the mag

0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:38.800
<v Speaker 2>one of the I learned a few things in it actually,

0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:40.720
<v Speaker 2>and one of the things I learned because as I say,

0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:43.680
<v Speaker 2>you were specifically talking about the Mcarman above the record.

0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:46.400
<v Speaker 2>I didn't realize at the time. I think I was

0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:49.160
<v Speaker 2>probably just a bit too young to be paying too

0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:52.200
<v Speaker 2>much attention to it. But I didn't realize that the

0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:56.240
<v Speaker 2>album came out originally after you'd split up. You put

0:12:56.240 --> 0:13:01.280
<v Speaker 2>out the double A side single was an extension of

0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:05.800
<v Speaker 2>the fact that I remember when you did that project

0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:07.640
<v Speaker 2>and released Yes and.

0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:09.520
<v Speaker 3>What was the other side? You do you do?

0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:13.600
<v Speaker 2>The whole idea of that was you didn't want to tour,

0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:15.400
<v Speaker 2>you didn't want to have merch.

0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:17.000
<v Speaker 3>You didn't want to have a band name. You see,

0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:18.920
<v Speaker 3>I got into a lot of trouble then, Yeah.

0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:23.120
<v Speaker 2>Right, okay, yeah, so that was such I mean, that's

0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:26.679
<v Speaker 2>something that that even now no one would really kind

0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:28.760
<v Speaker 2>of dare to do. I don't think, but I mean,

0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:30.920
<v Speaker 2>as I imagine back then, there was a lot of

0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:35.600
<v Speaker 2>pushback about that moment. Did you just say like, okay,

0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:37.880
<v Speaker 2>well actually this one wasn't what I was going to ask,

0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:40.040
<v Speaker 2>but did how did how did that talk go? Did

0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:41.640
<v Speaker 2>you just say, look, we're not we're not doing that.

0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:43.440
<v Speaker 2>We've got these songs and we're just releasing.

0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:46.600
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean really at that time, me and David

0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:51.120
<v Speaker 1>So we wrote this song, and I'd been in a

0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:53.720
<v Speaker 1>successful group or a group where there was very a

0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:57.640
<v Speaker 1>heightened sort of you know, public spectacle if you like,

0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:02.440
<v Speaker 1>you know, and and and so everything was very in

0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.640
<v Speaker 1>the public eye and very standard, if you like. And

0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:07.400
<v Speaker 1>so I just wanted to do something that was the

0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:10.920
<v Speaker 1>complete opposite, which is, I feel is a very natural

0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:13.400
<v Speaker 1>thing to do, way to look at things, how to

0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:15.400
<v Speaker 1>get away and just just do what you like doing

0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:19.440
<v Speaker 1>and be incredibly creative and pure about it. And it

0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:21.920
<v Speaker 1>was part of a process which I'm still on, you know,

0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:25.960
<v Speaker 1>of trying to find the pure essence of what you

0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:31.160
<v Speaker 1>do when you create something, and the pure integrity of something.

0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:35.440
<v Speaker 1>So we just wanted to make like one of those

0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:39.480
<v Speaker 1>Northern soul records where you just get like a what

0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:41.600
<v Speaker 1>do they call it, a disco sleeve with just a

0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:45.000
<v Speaker 1>hole in the middle and somebody's name penciled on it,

0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:48.000
<v Speaker 1>and just you put it on and it's just sets

0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:50.480
<v Speaker 1>the world on fire, you know, just lights up your

0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:53.360
<v Speaker 1>stereo in this beautiful way, and you don't know who

0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:55.560
<v Speaker 1>it is, and you don't know what they look like,

0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:57.880
<v Speaker 1>and you never got to see them live or anything,

0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:01.360
<v Speaker 1>but you just have this mysterious piece of beautiful pop music.

0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.240
<v Speaker 1>That was the That was the kind of principle. David

0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:05.760
<v Speaker 1>had been in a group as well. I'd been in

0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:08.080
<v Speaker 1>the group. We didn't want to carry those that baggage

0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:10.960
<v Speaker 1>in along to what we did, and we just had this.

0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:12.520
<v Speaker 3>We just made this. We went off and did it

0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:13.400
<v Speaker 3>on our own. Anyway.

0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:17.760
<v Speaker 1>Nobody even knew we were doing it, and to be honest,

0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:19.320
<v Speaker 1>at the time that it became a bit of a

0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:21.640
<v Speaker 1>scramble about who wanted to do it. David record Company

0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:24.400
<v Speaker 1>didn't want to put it out, but initially because they

0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:26.720
<v Speaker 1>wanted to put a solo record out by David and

0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:29.520
<v Speaker 1>that was their project, their big grand project. And so

0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:32.520
<v Speaker 1>they sat on it for a long time and people

0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:34.760
<v Speaker 1>started to hear it and just loved it, and it

0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:37.680
<v Speaker 1>was a really reluctant thing that they ended up being

0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:40.040
<v Speaker 1>put out. It took like six months, which in those

0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:42.440
<v Speaker 1>days was a very long time towards sit on something

0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:45.400
<v Speaker 1>for it to come out, and by that by the

0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:48.200
<v Speaker 1>time it came out, I kind of moved on right,

0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:50.320
<v Speaker 1>you know. I was like, all right, that's the way

0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:51.840
<v Speaker 1>I felt about at the time, but you weren't really

0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:54.040
<v Speaker 1>interested in this, so I'm off and I'll do something else.

0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:57.680
<v Speaker 1>And they were just like, no, no, wait a minute, wait

0:15:57.720 --> 0:15:59.320
<v Speaker 1>a minute, we want to do this. We think this

0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:01.600
<v Speaker 1>will work. And they hadn't really got a hand a

0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:04.840
<v Speaker 1>handle on David's solo. How to market David's as a

0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:07.840
<v Speaker 1>solo something like that. Kay, it happened, and so it

0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:10.360
<v Speaker 1>was really it's pretty insulting I felt at the time,

0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:13.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, and so I just thought so when it

0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:17.400
<v Speaker 1>came to releasing it, we they panicked and said, can

0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:18.360
<v Speaker 1>you do some more songs?

0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:19.080
<v Speaker 3>You know?

0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:21.400
<v Speaker 1>And we said sure, okay, when we did some B

0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:24.080
<v Speaker 1>sides what you'd call B sides for the singles, and

0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:25.720
<v Speaker 1>we said, well, we'll make yes and you do two

0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:28.600
<v Speaker 1>different singles. We'll do that, but you know, that's all

0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:30.840
<v Speaker 1>we're doing. And we and we went into a studio.

0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:33.520
<v Speaker 1>We did a couple at home, and I didn't know

0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:35.480
<v Speaker 1>what I was doing it, literally didn't know what I

0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:39.560
<v Speaker 1>was doing with recording, and I recorded my bathroom and

0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:42.560
<v Speaker 1>then we did a few a studio that spent a

0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:45.960
<v Speaker 1>day recording. So that's really how it came out, and

0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:48.960
<v Speaker 1>that's it, and so these were all put together, they

0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:51.600
<v Speaker 1>were there. They were actually fantastic fun We were you know,

0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:53.240
<v Speaker 1>we really love those songs. In the end, they had

0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:56.400
<v Speaker 1>done such such a spirit of just like, just do something,

0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:59.600
<v Speaker 1>do it quickly, get it done, and then move on,

0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:05.520
<v Speaker 1>no plans at all, and that's why they were that

0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:08.880
<v Speaker 1>there was never an album. And when You Do, Yes

0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:11.600
<v Speaker 1>came out and and it was it was a hit,

0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:14.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, people liked it. And then eventually You Do

0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:16.920
<v Speaker 1>came out as well, the second one, the follow up,

0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.560
<v Speaker 1>and they were just like, where's the album? Well, there

0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:21.200
<v Speaker 1>wasn't it now. You didn't want to put this out.

0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:23.679
<v Speaker 1>You know that that was never the plan. You know,

0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:27.040
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't the plan, you know, and you didn't want

0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:30.040
<v Speaker 1>anything to do with this. So you know, now it's

0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:32.040
<v Speaker 1>a bit late. And that's the way I felt about

0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:33.800
<v Speaker 1>it at the time. If you know, what if that

0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:36.680
<v Speaker 1>happened now, but I'd probably think, hmm, okay, all right,

0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:39.240
<v Speaker 1>well you could have said that, but okay, let's kind

0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:41.240
<v Speaker 1>of sort things that, let's try and work this out.

0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:43.359
<v Speaker 1>But I was, you know, I was young, and I

0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:47.199
<v Speaker 1>was an idiot and or just having fun, you know,

0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:50.480
<v Speaker 1>just like that age, and I just couldn't be asked

0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:52.399
<v Speaker 1>if I'm honest, you know, I just thought, you know,

0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:54.600
<v Speaker 1>and I found I just I was a bit sort

0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:57.480
<v Speaker 1>of peed off with the fact that they just weren't interested.

0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:00.399
<v Speaker 1>And I also thought, there's something's super cool about sticking

0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:03.159
<v Speaker 1>to the plan that Okay, well I'm not going to

0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:05.720
<v Speaker 1>do that and I'm going to stay. And I'm so

0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:07.879
<v Speaker 1>proud that I did that. Yeah, absolutely, you.

0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:08.240
<v Speaker 3>Know what I mean.

0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:10.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it got me into a lot of trouble, like

0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:12.680
<v Speaker 1>a lot of trouble. At the time, it was a nightmare.

0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:14.320
<v Speaker 1>It got to be into trouble with daved, Me and

0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:16.399
<v Speaker 1>David into trouble. We fell out about the whole thing

0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:18.760
<v Speaker 1>because David obviously just was stuck in the middle and

0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:22.200
<v Speaker 1>didn't know which way to go. And at that time

0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:24.119
<v Speaker 1>it became very tense for both us because neither of

0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:26.160
<v Speaker 1>us knew what we wanted to do, except we both

0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:28.320
<v Speaker 1>loved this thing that we'd done, but we didn't know.

0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:30.399
<v Speaker 1>He wanted to do his record and I want to

0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:33.800
<v Speaker 1>do mine, and and yet we were both being forced.

0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:36.480
<v Speaker 1>So we got into a lot of trouble. But I'm

0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:40.880
<v Speaker 1>looking back and I just so it's a proud stand

0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:43.760
<v Speaker 1>of mine. A standoff that I'm really proud of. Yeah,

0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:46.200
<v Speaker 1>particularly when I was young and I was under immense

0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:50.920
<v Speaker 1>pressure and I took a lot of shit over it.

0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:53.120
<v Speaker 2>Just do you mean just from like the label side

0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:55.840
<v Speaker 2>of things, or from fans and friends or were.

0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:56.639
<v Speaker 3>They all just behind it?

0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:59.520
<v Speaker 1>I mean there weren't any fans because we didn't do anything, okay,

0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:01.840
<v Speaker 1>so you know, it wasn't like that we weren't that

0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:06.639
<v Speaker 1>band who went on tour and which because we didn't friends, No,

0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:09.280
<v Speaker 1>not at all, you know, But I know it's from

0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:12.120
<v Speaker 1>the label and everyone around it and the London music

0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:14.480
<v Speaker 1>scene at the time, and which already had me marked

0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:16.840
<v Speaker 1>down as a villain already for walking out on a

0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:21.800
<v Speaker 1>successful band, which I'm also very proud of, and this

0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:26.440
<v Speaker 1>was like another another big, big black mark to stick

0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:29.040
<v Speaker 1>next to me, to say he's a he's a wrong.

0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:29.840
<v Speaker 3>And he's trouble.

0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:31.760
<v Speaker 1>And I'm really proud of the fact that I was

0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:34.400
<v Speaker 1>trouble at the time, and because I think I made good,

0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:37.520
<v Speaker 1>brave decisions. And if I was to say to young

0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:40.199
<v Speaker 1>people who were who are who want to be successful,

0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:42.480
<v Speaker 1>don't make those decisions. But if I say to you,

0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:44.880
<v Speaker 1>if I make young people who want to have an

0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:48.439
<v Speaker 1>adventurous creative life. Apps if you if you don't do

0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:52.800
<v Speaker 1>stuff like that, you will never really discover what's underneath.

0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:56.119
<v Speaker 1>And I have, and I've gone on to have great

0:19:56.200 --> 0:20:01.000
<v Speaker 1>creative adventures because I took those big made those big

0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:03.399
<v Speaker 1>moves when I was young, and took the ship for

0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:05.680
<v Speaker 1>it really and didn't just sit around in a band

0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:08.320
<v Speaker 1>for one hundred years and just and have an easy ride,

0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:10.359
<v Speaker 1>you know, have everyone pick me up, take me to

0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:12.439
<v Speaker 1>a gig, play the same songs, go home, you know,

0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:15.439
<v Speaker 1>all that sort of stuff. I was never interested in that.

0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:18.960
<v Speaker 1>I've never done it. And I mean what I love

0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:22.719
<v Speaker 1>about yes, and that with David. I mean, by the way,

0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:24.600
<v Speaker 1>David's one of my best friends, you know, and we

0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:27.800
<v Speaker 1>have been for a very long time since then, so

0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:31.840
<v Speaker 1>he's I love the guy, you know. And what we

0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:35.959
<v Speaker 1>love about it is that song does still exist in

0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:41.040
<v Speaker 1>a vacuum. It exists in a place where people will say, God,

0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:43.880
<v Speaker 1>I didn't know that was you, or I just love

0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:47.120
<v Speaker 1>that song. They don't love it because they saw as

0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:49.919
<v Speaker 1>tore it, or because they've had our poster on the

0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:53.600
<v Speaker 1>wall or anything. They just love it because it's it

0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:56.840
<v Speaker 1>makes them feel fantastic. You know, they don't really buy

0:20:56.840 --> 0:20:59.560
<v Speaker 1>into the brand. You know, like you if you like

0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:03.679
<v Speaker 1>Navan or if you like I don't know, Harry Styles

0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:06.240
<v Speaker 1>or something. You buy into a brand, don't you that

0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:09.719
<v Speaker 1>the song, the record, the album, the dance move, the video,

0:21:10.119 --> 0:21:13.280
<v Speaker 1>you saw the concert, you know you followed it. You

0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:16.280
<v Speaker 1>feel connected in that way to a brand that's more

0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:20.200
<v Speaker 1>than the music. And that's a very there's nothing wrong

0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:22.880
<v Speaker 1>with that. That happened to the Beatles and the Base,

0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:25.800
<v Speaker 1>heat Rollers and everyone. You know, that's what we do

0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:31.400
<v Speaker 1>when we connect with pop. But with this, no one

0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:34.600
<v Speaker 1>connected with any of that and never has done because

0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:38.240
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't there. They only connected with the wax on

0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:41.520
<v Speaker 1>you know, on the record, and that's all they had.

0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:43.840
<v Speaker 1>And that was my ideal, that was my vision. I

0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:48.720
<v Speaker 1>thought that was my you know, this ridiculous purist sort

0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:52.080
<v Speaker 1>of dream. When in Ireland when they had the referendum

0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:56.080
<v Speaker 1>on gay marriage a number of years ago, at it

0:21:56.119 --> 0:21:58.560
<v Speaker 1>was it was like kind of the anthem at the time.

0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:00.840
<v Speaker 1>I remember going, we went there, David were there at

0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:02.800
<v Speaker 1>the time, just after it, and we had no idea

0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:05.080
<v Speaker 1>and it was yet it's called yes, and that it

0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:07.560
<v Speaker 1>was all the yes vote, and that was such a

0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:11.960
<v Speaker 1>powerful thing for us, obviously for David, you know, so,

0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:14.399
<v Speaker 1>so yeah, I felt like I lost the battle and

0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:14.920
<v Speaker 1>won the war.

0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:19.000
<v Speaker 2>Like growing up, were you similar in terms of, like

0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:21.840
<v Speaker 2>you say, to walk away from a really successful group

0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:24.040
<v Speaker 2>and then to have this huge song and to not

0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:27.240
<v Speaker 2>run after that and to not try and capitalize on

0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:28.800
<v Speaker 2>that as well, and to say no, I want to

0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:32.439
<v Speaker 2>do something else. Is that something that's always been in you?

0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:34.960
<v Speaker 2>Because it's it to me that always feels like a

0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:35.760
<v Speaker 2>very rare trait.

0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:41.919
<v Speaker 1>I don't know where that comes from, a bit apart

0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:44.760
<v Speaker 1>from maybe when I was growing up, I never thought

0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:47.880
<v Speaker 1>to make music for a living, you know, I thought

0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:49.240
<v Speaker 1>it would be a hobby. I never thought that it

0:22:49.240 --> 0:22:52.920
<v Speaker 1>was possible. And what I did, and with the music

0:22:52.920 --> 0:22:54.560
<v Speaker 1>that I listened to a lot of it was what

0:22:54.600 --> 0:22:57.199
<v Speaker 1>you would now call the alternative at the time of

0:22:57.240 --> 0:23:02.720
<v Speaker 1>the nineteen eighties, music that for me was just pop music.

0:23:02.800 --> 0:23:04.199
<v Speaker 3>It wasn't you know.

0:23:04.240 --> 0:23:06.440
<v Speaker 1>I listened to some some out there stuff, but generally

0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:08.359
<v Speaker 1>the stuff I was listened to was was what I

0:23:08.400 --> 0:23:12.520
<v Speaker 1>regarded as just exhilarating, beautiful pop music. And but the

0:23:12.560 --> 0:23:15.280
<v Speaker 1>but was shunned by the mainstream generally at the time,

0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:18.000
<v Speaker 1>it's easy to forget that groups like the Smiths and

0:23:18.080 --> 0:23:20.720
<v Speaker 1>New Order and all those groups who are now elevated

0:23:20.720 --> 0:23:23.719
<v Speaker 1>into legend, you know, Oh, they were always great. No, no, no,

0:23:23.760 --> 0:23:26.119
<v Speaker 1>they weren't. They weren't played on the radio. They played

0:23:26.520 --> 0:23:29.480
<v Speaker 1>the biggest show the Smith's ever played in London's Bricks

0:23:29.480 --> 0:23:32.800
<v Speaker 1>and Academy and now it's the last show. Yeah, And

0:23:32.840 --> 0:23:35.040
<v Speaker 1>they played that several a couple of times, and I

0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:38.800
<v Speaker 1>was at that show. But you could see somebody playing

0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:40.720
<v Speaker 1>Bricks and Academy tonight and you've never heard of them,

0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:44.440
<v Speaker 1>you know, And so people will elevate the status. So

0:23:44.560 --> 0:23:47.000
<v Speaker 1>that music at the time for me was really beautiful

0:23:47.200 --> 0:23:51.080
<v Speaker 1>and it was it was what should be what we

0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:53.080
<v Speaker 1>should all be listening to, but it wasn't. And so

0:23:53.440 --> 0:23:56.320
<v Speaker 1>those a lot those characters were quite centric and took

0:23:56.400 --> 0:23:59.119
<v Speaker 1>break brave moves and lived in a place where they

0:23:59.160 --> 0:24:01.240
<v Speaker 1>didn't need to worry about the mainstream because it didn't

0:24:01.280 --> 0:24:05.639
<v Speaker 1>really it didn't really accept them. And so I had

0:24:05.640 --> 0:24:08.800
<v Speaker 1>a lot of influence of characters there, yeah, who shunned

0:24:09.000 --> 0:24:13.119
<v Speaker 1>mainstream media, and and that was what part of what

0:24:13.200 --> 0:24:13.879
<v Speaker 1>attracted to me.

0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:14.080
<v Speaker 4>You know.

0:24:14.200 --> 0:24:17.399
<v Speaker 1>New Order famously wouldn't do interviews and did things very differently.

0:24:17.440 --> 0:24:18.960
<v Speaker 1>If they did Top the Pops, they had to play

0:24:19.000 --> 0:24:24.080
<v Speaker 1>live famously made yeah, quite obtuse decisions in what they did.

0:24:24.240 --> 0:24:29.480
<v Speaker 1>New Order would leave their sequences when computer sequences music

0:24:29.560 --> 0:24:31.919
<v Speaker 1>was very in its infancy, they'd leave it running and

0:24:31.960 --> 0:24:34.520
<v Speaker 1>walk off the stage. Was the music played on by

0:24:34.560 --> 0:24:38.080
<v Speaker 1>machines just just to wind people up and say, oh,

0:24:38.160 --> 0:24:41.879
<v Speaker 1>they can't really play, you know, and which is largely true.

0:24:42.160 --> 0:24:47.200
<v Speaker 1>And so yeah, I was really attracted to people like that. Yeah,

0:24:47.200 --> 0:24:49.080
<v Speaker 1>I thought it was funny and I thought it was cool,

0:24:49.320 --> 0:24:51.240
<v Speaker 1>and that was part but that was part of my

0:24:51.400 --> 0:24:54.880
<v Speaker 1>standard growing up. And I had good people around I've

0:24:55.000 --> 0:24:57.919
<v Speaker 1>had good people around me. You know. My partner, my wife,

0:24:58.320 --> 0:25:02.320
<v Speaker 1>has been around with me forever and she just has

0:25:02.400 --> 0:25:06.240
<v Speaker 1>no real interest in the music industry. She just somebody

0:25:06.400 --> 0:25:10.160
<v Speaker 1>likes records and Friday Night like like lots of us,

0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:13.080
<v Speaker 1>do you know. So if she sees anything, she just says, well,

0:25:13.119 --> 0:25:15.760
<v Speaker 1>term to fuck off, and.

0:25:15.720 --> 0:25:18.880
<v Speaker 3>She's always done that. My wife's similar to that. Cool.

0:25:18.880 --> 0:25:21.800
<v Speaker 1>Well, let's actually right, right, Okay, Well you know what

0:25:21.840 --> 0:25:25.200
<v Speaker 1>that we know the battles that the stakes are higher

0:25:25.680 --> 0:25:28.480
<v Speaker 1>in in outside of the world of where we live,

0:25:28.760 --> 0:25:32.359
<v Speaker 1>you know, and so yeah, and I and that's always

0:25:32.359 --> 0:25:36.120
<v Speaker 1>been and I think there's so many yes people in

0:25:36.600 --> 0:25:40.600
<v Speaker 1>around media and entertainment and stuff that people who just

0:25:40.640 --> 0:25:43.560
<v Speaker 1>do a bit more flippant are more realistic about stuff.

0:25:43.600 --> 0:25:46.359
<v Speaker 1>So I don't know, I never thought, you know, again,

0:25:46.400 --> 0:25:47.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm not I don't want to make a thing because

0:25:47.840 --> 0:25:50.600
<v Speaker 1>I don't think I'm that that outrageous of anything. You know,

0:25:50.680 --> 0:25:54.399
<v Speaker 1>I really like talking to I'm really I'm really happy

0:25:54.480 --> 0:25:57.480
<v Speaker 1>that to talk about things like this and what I've

0:25:57.520 --> 0:25:59.879
<v Speaker 1>done in my career is a nice thing to be in.

0:26:00.280 --> 0:26:02.480
<v Speaker 1>It suggests that people have heard it and enjoyed it,

0:26:02.560 --> 0:26:05.600
<v Speaker 1>and that's what's what's to not like about that, you know,

0:26:05.680 --> 0:26:09.360
<v Speaker 1>And that's nice. So I don't ever think it's been

0:26:11.000 --> 0:26:13.560
<v Speaker 1>maybe where I am now, it's now it's kind of accepted.

0:26:13.640 --> 0:26:16.160
<v Speaker 1>I feel like I'm kind of accepted now. And it's

0:26:16.200 --> 0:26:19.080
<v Speaker 1>taken thirty years to get that through that people aren't

0:26:19.359 --> 0:26:22.880
<v Speaker 1>now putting a black market on me and saying he's

0:26:22.880 --> 0:26:25.600
<v Speaker 1>a wrong and actually saying, actually this that's quite good.

0:26:25.840 --> 0:26:28.119
<v Speaker 1>You know, that's quite cool as it turns out. But

0:26:29.040 --> 0:26:33.480
<v Speaker 1>it was it's been hard work, yeah, arrived, well, you know,

0:26:33.960 --> 0:26:36.080
<v Speaker 1>just well, I've survived.

0:26:36.080 --> 0:26:38.680
<v Speaker 2>And I mean I've always got the impression you are

0:26:39.400 --> 0:26:42.320
<v Speaker 2>the least nostalgic person. Is that fair to say?

0:26:42.359 --> 0:26:45.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm not very nostalgia. I mean I might be

0:26:45.200 --> 0:26:49.520
<v Speaker 1>nostalgic about TV I watch or something like that, you know,

0:26:49.880 --> 0:26:53.600
<v Speaker 1>like any of us, but I'm not. I mean again,

0:26:53.640 --> 0:26:55.280
<v Speaker 1>I don't think it's that obtuse. So I think it's

0:26:55.320 --> 0:26:59.440
<v Speaker 1>important to encourage people to fresh, refresh all the time,

0:26:59.440 --> 0:27:02.320
<v Speaker 1>into channel, just keep moving. I think as an artistic person,

0:27:02.359 --> 0:27:05.639
<v Speaker 1>you have to keep moving. That's the whole point. You

0:27:05.720 --> 0:27:08.560
<v Speaker 1>have to keep it. And then the analogy is always

0:27:08.560 --> 0:27:13.000
<v Speaker 1>that we're we're constantly our skin cells are constantly dying

0:27:13.080 --> 0:27:16.040
<v Speaker 1>and constantly being born, and every that means every part

0:27:16.080 --> 0:27:18.720
<v Speaker 1>of our body and our existence is traveling in time

0:27:18.800 --> 0:27:21.960
<v Speaker 1>and moving and regenerating all the time. And therefore, as

0:27:21.960 --> 0:27:24.720
<v Speaker 1>an artist in any way, you've got to you've got

0:27:24.760 --> 0:27:26.959
<v Speaker 1>to go with that. And the minute you stop and

0:27:27.000 --> 0:27:30.520
<v Speaker 1>just sit back on your greatest hits and going on

0:27:30.560 --> 0:27:33.879
<v Speaker 1>about the good old days, it's just it's it just

0:27:34.160 --> 0:27:37.400
<v Speaker 1>puts you in inertia, you know, it's it's it stamps

0:27:37.400 --> 0:27:40.920
<v Speaker 1>you in a place. And again, that is very difficult

0:27:41.000 --> 0:27:43.320
<v Speaker 1>people love nostalgia. People want to talk to me about

0:27:43.320 --> 0:27:46.880
<v Speaker 1>the good old days, and they don't. They just want

0:27:46.920 --> 0:27:51.800
<v Speaker 1>to hear that, you know, and I understand it. But

0:27:51.880 --> 0:27:53.639
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't mean I'm going to give in and do

0:27:53.720 --> 0:27:57.119
<v Speaker 1>it just to please other people. You know. It's because,

0:27:58.280 --> 0:28:02.200
<v Speaker 1>like I said today, but today, I've been up recording

0:28:02.240 --> 0:28:04.679
<v Speaker 1>violin all day for a record. Last night, I was

0:28:04.680 --> 0:28:06.760
<v Speaker 1>doing a TV show with a record that's just about

0:28:06.800 --> 0:28:09.199
<v Speaker 1>to come out. It goes on and on from there.

0:28:09.280 --> 0:28:11.240
<v Speaker 1>Everything about that is even the thing I was doing

0:28:11.240 --> 0:28:13.600
<v Speaker 1>today is completely different from what I was doing last night,

0:28:13.640 --> 0:28:16.280
<v Speaker 1>and that's something coming out next year, and it goes

0:28:16.320 --> 0:28:20.920
<v Speaker 1>on and on. That's what makes me, you know, it's

0:28:20.960 --> 0:28:23.280
<v Speaker 1>my life. Yeah, that's what I do. I feel like people.

0:28:23.480 --> 0:28:24.600
<v Speaker 1>I feel like, at the end of the day, that's

0:28:24.640 --> 0:28:26.399
<v Speaker 1>what people should want me to do, right. You know,

0:28:26.480 --> 0:28:28.719
<v Speaker 1>if I said, oh, what if you're only new records

0:28:28.720 --> 0:28:30.879
<v Speaker 1>and no I just sit and listen to the old ones.

0:28:33.359 --> 0:28:35.600
<v Speaker 3>You know, yeah, no, I know exactly what you mean.

0:28:36.680 --> 0:28:39.480
<v Speaker 1>No one's going to like that. So I think, well, okay, well,

0:28:40.000 --> 0:28:41.840
<v Speaker 1>you know it's.

0:28:41.720 --> 0:28:43.760
<v Speaker 2>Got an image if you just sat there listening to

0:28:44.080 --> 0:28:46.000
<v Speaker 2>those first two swed down and doing nothing else not

0:28:46.080 --> 0:28:48.200
<v Speaker 2>leaving the house. I don't listen to any of my records,

0:28:48.280 --> 0:28:50.360
<v Speaker 2>do you not know? As soon as they're done, they're

0:28:50.360 --> 0:28:56.280
<v Speaker 2>done and done and that's it. So how did the

0:28:56.960 --> 0:28:59.440
<v Speaker 2>new record with Jesse Buckley come together? I mean, first

0:28:59.440 --> 0:29:02.120
<v Speaker 2>of all, how did you how did you meet her? Well,

0:29:02.200 --> 0:29:07.320
<v Speaker 2>Jesse was introduced by somebody who was looking after her

0:29:08.080 --> 0:29:11.680
<v Speaker 2>and trying to find opportunities of her in music that

0:29:11.800 --> 0:29:14.720
<v Speaker 2>she might like. And she didn't really want to go

0:29:14.760 --> 0:29:18.360
<v Speaker 2>off and become an R and B star or pop

0:29:18.400 --> 0:29:20.320
<v Speaker 2>star writing lots of pop hits or anything like that.

0:29:20.360 --> 0:29:25.920
<v Speaker 1>I don't you know. She's a beautiful, wandering, adventurous soul and.

0:29:27.280 --> 0:29:28.120
<v Speaker 3>From that she.

0:29:28.040 --> 0:29:30.719
<v Speaker 1>Didn't really I don't think she could write down what

0:29:30.760 --> 0:29:35.920
<v Speaker 1>she wanted to do. But everyone knows she's extraordinarily talented

0:29:37.640 --> 0:29:41.320
<v Speaker 1>in every area, and so when it came to singing,

0:29:42.560 --> 0:29:46.959
<v Speaker 1>it's about finding somewhere or someone and she could who

0:29:47.000 --> 0:29:52.680
<v Speaker 1>could help bring something to life, you know. So we

0:29:52.680 --> 0:29:57.560
<v Speaker 1>were introduced by a guy called Paul Sminiki and Jesse

0:29:57.720 --> 0:30:01.120
<v Speaker 1>just I was I got Jesse's numb and said I'll

0:30:01.160 --> 0:30:04.560
<v Speaker 1>give her a call, and I phoned her and she

0:30:04.800 --> 0:30:09.400
<v Speaker 1>was on FaceTime and she was outdoors. She was walking

0:30:10.600 --> 0:30:13.400
<v Speaker 1>and it was windy, and she was up clearly upper

0:30:13.440 --> 0:30:17.920
<v Speaker 1>mountain or something, and I said, I said where are in?

0:30:18.280 --> 0:30:23.200
<v Speaker 1>I'm upper mountain. I said, right, okay, great, So where's

0:30:23.240 --> 0:30:23.720
<v Speaker 1>the mountain?

0:30:23.920 --> 0:30:24.120
<v Speaker 3>Said?

0:30:24.160 --> 0:30:27.440
<v Speaker 1>Oh, it's an island and I said, right, okay, lovely,

0:30:27.520 --> 0:30:29.520
<v Speaker 1>Well I imagine that because I know you're Irish. Jesse,

0:30:29.640 --> 0:30:33.240
<v Speaker 1>come on, where an island? Said oh, you wouldn't know.

0:30:33.280 --> 0:30:35.440
<v Speaker 1>It's the west of Ireland, place called Kerry. And I said,

0:30:35.480 --> 0:30:37.360
<v Speaker 1>I know Kerry. Yeah, I know Kerry and said you

0:30:37.400 --> 0:30:39.520
<v Speaker 1>do and I said, I said yeah, where where are you?

0:30:39.560 --> 0:30:41.560
<v Speaker 1>And carry and said I'm in Killarney. You wouldn't know it.

0:30:41.560 --> 0:30:43.280
<v Speaker 1>And I said, I know Callaney as well, and I

0:30:43.320 --> 0:30:47.640
<v Speaker 1>do know Kerry. And we just started talking about that

0:30:47.800 --> 0:30:50.200
<v Speaker 1>area of island. I basically when we were my parents

0:30:50.200 --> 0:30:52.800
<v Speaker 1>were Irish and when we were kids we used to

0:30:52.800 --> 0:30:55.560
<v Speaker 1>go and stay down there and carry in an island

0:30:55.560 --> 0:30:58.840
<v Speaker 1>called Valentia Island, which is just magical. We just started

0:30:58.840 --> 0:31:01.080
<v Speaker 1>talking like that. We're just That's always how it's been

0:31:01.080 --> 0:31:04.040
<v Speaker 1>with me and Jesse. We just talk about stuff. Eventually

0:31:04.080 --> 0:31:07.880
<v Speaker 1>she came up to London and during one of the lockdowns,

0:31:09.000 --> 0:31:11.960
<v Speaker 1>had we just sat in my kitchen and wrote a

0:31:12.000 --> 0:31:15.080
<v Speaker 1>song and that was it and we off we went

0:31:15.160 --> 0:31:19.840
<v Speaker 1>and she said, when we finished writing the song, we

0:31:19.920 --> 0:31:23.200
<v Speaker 1>recorded it on our phones, just just a very simple version,

0:31:23.280 --> 0:31:26.200
<v Speaker 1>just a strum, guitar and her singing, no microphone, was

0:31:26.240 --> 0:31:29.080
<v Speaker 1>no studio, and then I just thought I left it.

0:31:29.160 --> 0:31:32.400
<v Speaker 1>And then she she said, do you want to do

0:31:32.440 --> 0:31:36.400
<v Speaker 1>that again? And I was like, yeah, let's do that again.

0:31:37.080 --> 0:31:39.720
<v Speaker 1>And that kept happening, and it happened for thirteen weeks

0:31:40.080 --> 0:31:44.080
<v Speaker 1>and we wrote thirteen songs and yeah, so that's that's

0:31:44.080 --> 0:31:46.320
<v Speaker 1>how that's how it happened with Jesse.

0:31:46.400 --> 0:31:47.360
<v Speaker 3>And an Eventure.

0:31:47.360 --> 0:31:50.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that is that is the that becomes the

0:31:50.440 --> 0:31:53.760
<v Speaker 2>album for all our Days That Tear the Heart. I mean,

0:31:53.840 --> 0:31:58.719
<v Speaker 2>her voice is incredible, Like it's she's got such an

0:31:58.760 --> 0:32:03.360
<v Speaker 2>amazing voice. I'm guessing, like does that make it easier?

0:32:03.800 --> 0:32:06.120
<v Speaker 3>I mean I'm not expecting to say, oh, yeah, I've

0:32:06.120 --> 0:32:06.560
<v Speaker 3>worked with have.

0:32:06.400 --> 0:32:11.800
<v Speaker 4>Some terrible singers in the past, But when the person

0:32:11.800 --> 0:32:16.040
<v Speaker 4>you're working with has that in them, does it Does

0:32:16.080 --> 0:32:16.960
<v Speaker 4>it make it easier?

0:32:17.480 --> 0:32:21.040
<v Speaker 2>And also do you have a sort of when you

0:32:21.080 --> 0:32:23.560
<v Speaker 2>work with somebody like would it have been enough for

0:32:23.640 --> 0:32:25.840
<v Speaker 2>her voice to be incredible but for there to have

0:32:25.920 --> 0:32:27.800
<v Speaker 2>not been some sort of connection between you.

0:32:27.880 --> 0:32:31.440
<v Speaker 1>When you meet a great voice, you don't meet somebody

0:32:31.440 --> 0:32:34.600
<v Speaker 1>who could do vocal gymnastics. You meet somebody who you

0:32:34.600 --> 0:32:37.760
<v Speaker 1>connect with, and you connect with the voice, you connect

0:32:37.800 --> 0:32:40.880
<v Speaker 1>with the person. It's as simple as that. So you

0:32:40.920 --> 0:32:43.000
<v Speaker 1>know when we talk of the great voice, and you

0:32:43.080 --> 0:32:46.320
<v Speaker 1>watched one of those, you know, the dreadful programs about voices,

0:32:46.360 --> 0:32:48.480
<v Speaker 1>and you know, it's all about the scales and how

0:32:48.520 --> 0:32:50.240
<v Speaker 1>perfectly you're in tune and all that kind of stuff,

0:32:50.240 --> 0:32:52.760
<v Speaker 1>and I just I'm not interested in anything like that.

0:32:52.800 --> 0:32:53.080
<v Speaker 3>Really.

0:32:53.640 --> 0:32:59.320
<v Speaker 1>Jesse is technically incredible with her voice anyway, which as

0:32:59.360 --> 0:33:02.320
<v Speaker 1>a starting point is pretty great. Yeah, it's it's like

0:33:02.400 --> 0:33:04.719
<v Speaker 1>it's something that you just don't Yeah, you don't consider.

0:33:04.840 --> 0:33:07.560
<v Speaker 1>But what you when you connect with somebody, you connect

0:33:07.600 --> 0:33:12.960
<v Speaker 1>with the tone, You connect with the delivery and obviously

0:33:13.000 --> 0:33:15.880
<v Speaker 1>the way they want to use words and and and

0:33:15.960 --> 0:33:19.200
<v Speaker 1>you connect that. For me, what I connect with is

0:33:19.200 --> 0:33:21.400
<v Speaker 1>is the personality and the soul of somebody.

0:33:21.880 --> 0:33:25.280
<v Speaker 2>At what point then does it go from maybe feeling

0:33:25.400 --> 0:33:29.960
<v Speaker 2>like it's Jesse Buckley solo album and becomes a joint

0:33:30.680 --> 0:33:31.600
<v Speaker 2>venture with with.

0:33:31.720 --> 0:33:33.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean it was it was for me. It

0:33:33.400 --> 0:33:39.760
<v Speaker 1>was always was just Jesse's record, and she asked that

0:33:38.640 --> 0:33:41.200
<v Speaker 1>I get I do it.

0:33:41.120 --> 0:33:42.280
<v Speaker 3>Was have my name on it as well.

0:33:43.640 --> 0:33:46.400
<v Speaker 1>I think I think partly she just wanted didn't want

0:33:46.400 --> 0:33:49.560
<v Speaker 1>the whole thing on her, and partly because we just

0:33:49.600 --> 0:33:53.760
<v Speaker 1>became really close and a partnership with a vision that

0:33:53.920 --> 0:33:56.840
<v Speaker 1>went beyond just here's here's a couple of tunes.

0:33:57.240 --> 0:34:00.160
<v Speaker 2>It's a it's a really beautiful record, and it's so

0:34:01.680 --> 0:34:04.800
<v Speaker 2>kind of grand in places and so kind of intimate

0:34:04.840 --> 0:34:10.240
<v Speaker 2>in others. Was there thinking back to like that Mcarman

0:34:10.320 --> 0:34:13.320
<v Speaker 2>and Butler record for example? You knew what you wanted

0:34:13.360 --> 0:34:15.239
<v Speaker 2>that project to be, and it very much wanted to

0:34:15.239 --> 0:34:18.040
<v Speaker 2>be a particular a thing. And you know, as we've

0:34:18.040 --> 0:34:21.000
<v Speaker 2>spoken about, did you have is there an aim for

0:34:21.040 --> 0:34:21.600
<v Speaker 2>this record?

0:34:21.640 --> 0:34:23.600
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean they're not that far off. They're not

0:34:23.640 --> 0:34:28.360
<v Speaker 1>that dissimilar in that sort of quite idealistic vision and

0:34:28.440 --> 0:34:32.680
<v Speaker 1>approach and a very purest approach to making it. I mean,

0:34:32.719 --> 0:34:35.480
<v Speaker 1>obviously David's was that, Yes, was very much about it

0:34:35.480 --> 0:34:38.480
<v Speaker 1>being a pop moment, and that was you know, very

0:34:38.480 --> 0:34:40.760
<v Speaker 1>clear we wanted it to be that kind of pop record.

0:34:41.320 --> 0:34:43.520
<v Speaker 1>This I don't want to put any We don't put

0:34:43.520 --> 0:34:46.680
<v Speaker 1>any kind of musical genre on it, but we it's

0:34:46.880 --> 0:34:51.920
<v Speaker 1>very much about It's about a distillation of where we

0:34:51.920 --> 0:34:55.040
<v Speaker 1>were at that moment, and each moment that we wrote

0:34:55.040 --> 0:34:58.359
<v Speaker 1>a song being able to describe that moment, and they

0:34:58.400 --> 0:35:02.400
<v Speaker 1>were strange times we were living through. We all lived through, yeah,

0:35:02.440 --> 0:35:06.839
<v Speaker 1>trying to express jointly how we came together. It's an

0:35:06.880 --> 0:35:09.239
<v Speaker 1>interesting thing when you write, you don't you don't. You

0:35:09.280 --> 0:35:12.560
<v Speaker 1>know when people, perhaps in your magazine you might have said,

0:35:13.400 --> 0:35:15.560
<v Speaker 1>what did you write that song about? What's that song about?

0:35:15.560 --> 0:35:17.640
<v Speaker 1>My favorite song? What's that about? And they'll tell you,

0:35:17.880 --> 0:35:21.759
<v Speaker 1>and I always say, no, no, it's not, because you're

0:35:21.840 --> 0:35:23.920
<v Speaker 1>just you're It's very easy to do it, to assume

0:35:24.000 --> 0:35:28.960
<v Speaker 1>that definition or that narrative after the event. But at

0:35:29.000 --> 0:35:31.719
<v Speaker 1>the time, I don't think it's important for a song

0:35:31.760 --> 0:35:34.720
<v Speaker 1>to be about something. I think it's what it should

0:35:34.719 --> 0:35:39.040
<v Speaker 1>be about, is about pulling the feelings in a way

0:35:39.120 --> 0:35:44.399
<v Speaker 1>that other people have the possibility to keep interpreting. That's

0:35:44.440 --> 0:35:47.200
<v Speaker 1>what a really great song is for me. Wichitar line man,

0:35:47.280 --> 0:35:49.160
<v Speaker 1>who the hell is wichitar line man? What the hell

0:35:49.239 --> 0:35:52.000
<v Speaker 1>is that? The line man for the county? Who really

0:35:52.040 --> 0:35:54.160
<v Speaker 1>knows what the lineman for the county? But we all

0:35:54.200 --> 0:35:56.759
<v Speaker 1>adore that song, you know, and it means it has

0:35:56.800 --> 0:36:00.319
<v Speaker 1>such feeling and potency and it has beautiful individe your

0:36:00.360 --> 0:36:04.880
<v Speaker 1>lines in that within that song that just kill me.

0:36:05.040 --> 0:36:09.360
<v Speaker 1>But why it's about this guy putting the lines up

0:36:09.400 --> 0:36:10.239
<v Speaker 1>the telegraph lines?

0:36:10.239 --> 0:36:11.080
<v Speaker 3>I think it is or something.

0:36:12.560 --> 0:36:16.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think it is that that's not important, you know.

0:36:16.480 --> 0:36:21.200
<v Speaker 1>So it's about it putting these individual images and throwing

0:36:21.239 --> 0:36:24.640
<v Speaker 1>images at people that you can absorb into your life

0:36:24.920 --> 0:36:28.759
<v Speaker 1>and your your experience and interpret the way you want to.

0:36:28.800 --> 0:36:31.520
<v Speaker 3>And I think that's that's what the goal was for this.

0:36:32.040 --> 0:36:33.759
<v Speaker 2>Are there songs that with that in mind? Are there

0:36:33.840 --> 0:36:36.040
<v Speaker 2>songs out there that you love.

0:36:37.600 --> 0:36:42.120
<v Speaker 3>That you are desperate to know what they're about? Yeah?

0:36:42.160 --> 0:36:44.760
<v Speaker 1>I think about I'm not really desperate, if I'm honest,

0:36:44.840 --> 0:36:48.240
<v Speaker 1>And maybe that's because of I'm in that experience myself

0:36:48.280 --> 0:36:51.080
<v Speaker 1>a lot of the time. Yeah, I often think about

0:36:51.080 --> 0:36:52.919
<v Speaker 1>what is that about? What's going on there?

0:36:53.000 --> 0:36:54.120
<v Speaker 3>And I trying to.

0:36:54.080 --> 0:36:56.719
<v Speaker 1>Switch it off? Yeah, I often just switch it off.

0:36:56.760 --> 0:37:00.279
<v Speaker 1>I don't really I don't really care something's about. Yeah,

0:37:00.600 --> 0:37:02.640
<v Speaker 1>I was thinking about this slat. There's this beautiful song

0:37:02.680 --> 0:37:05.560
<v Speaker 1>called Midair by Paul Buchanan. Paul Buchanan was in the

0:37:05.600 --> 0:37:08.200
<v Speaker 1>Blue Nile and it's one of my favorite ever songs.

0:37:08.400 --> 0:37:11.359
<v Speaker 1>And I was asked to choose this as a song

0:37:11.400 --> 0:37:15.000
<v Speaker 1>I loved recently and I and it made me think.

0:37:15.040 --> 0:37:17.120
<v Speaker 1>And I can be asked what the song is about

0:37:17.480 --> 0:37:19.239
<v Speaker 1>because I love it so much, and again, I love

0:37:19.640 --> 0:37:23.720
<v Speaker 1>certain lines in it. I don't really know. I couldn't

0:37:23.760 --> 0:37:26.960
<v Speaker 1>tell you what it's about the whole thing, and you

0:37:27.000 --> 0:37:30.120
<v Speaker 1>have no desire to know. But I wouldn't fred no,

0:37:30.239 --> 0:37:32.160
<v Speaker 1>and I wouldn't ask the artist or anything like that.

0:37:32.200 --> 0:37:35.719
<v Speaker 1>I don't really have that desire no to do that. Yeah,

0:37:36.080 --> 0:37:39.040
<v Speaker 1>and often with artists who I could ask those questions

0:37:39.120 --> 0:37:41.719
<v Speaker 1>and I don't want to go on it. I don't

0:37:41.719 --> 0:37:44.480
<v Speaker 1>want to go there with them. Yeah, I do tend to.

0:37:45.840 --> 0:37:48.600
<v Speaker 1>I tend to never ask an artist what a song's

0:37:48.600 --> 0:37:51.000
<v Speaker 1>about it, but I do tend to. I'm kind of

0:37:51.040 --> 0:37:53.480
<v Speaker 1>suppressing what I really want to ask. I do always

0:37:53.480 --> 0:37:53.960
<v Speaker 1>want to know.

0:37:54.280 --> 0:37:56.719
<v Speaker 2>But because I know that they obviously a lot of

0:37:56.800 --> 0:37:58.799
<v Speaker 2>time they don't want to talk about that, which I

0:37:58.800 --> 0:38:00.000
<v Speaker 2>completely understand as well as.

0:38:00.200 --> 0:38:04.200
<v Speaker 1>Also because that's given you the opportunity to keep it

0:38:04.360 --> 0:38:08.120
<v Speaker 1>circling your brain, which keeps it fresh. Yeah, if they

0:38:08.239 --> 0:38:10.920
<v Speaker 1>just said, oh, it's about that bloke you know, or

0:38:11.040 --> 0:38:13.480
<v Speaker 1>somebody famous or something you'd just be you'd probably be like.

0:38:13.480 --> 0:38:17.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh, yeah, yeah, I've got a friend called I've got

0:38:17.440 --> 0:38:20.240
<v Speaker 2>a friend called Swan. His name is his name is Wayne.

0:38:21.080 --> 0:38:23.480
<v Speaker 2>I met him at University's first person. I'm at university

0:38:23.520 --> 0:38:25.880
<v Speaker 2>and I and I introduced myself and he said, oh,

0:38:25.920 --> 0:38:29.480
<v Speaker 2>my name is Wayne, but everyone calls me Swan. And

0:38:29.520 --> 0:38:32.760
<v Speaker 2>to this day, I don't know why he's called Swan.

0:38:32.880 --> 0:38:34.799
<v Speaker 2>I've never known, but it's got It got to a

0:38:34.840 --> 0:38:38.440
<v Speaker 2>point where he said, look, if I tell you why,

0:38:39.080 --> 0:38:40.719
<v Speaker 2>it's never going to be as good as what you've

0:38:40.760 --> 0:38:41.399
<v Speaker 2>got in your mind.

0:38:41.920 --> 0:38:42.799
<v Speaker 3>Like it's going to be.

0:38:42.920 --> 0:38:45.320
<v Speaker 2>It's just going to be how someone's misheard me and

0:38:45.360 --> 0:38:47.000
<v Speaker 2>thought I said Swan instead of Wayne. It's going to

0:38:47.040 --> 0:38:52.440
<v Speaker 2>be something so unremarkable. So yeah, it's a great mystery

0:38:52.440 --> 0:38:55.080
<v Speaker 2>in my life. Though, if Swan you are, if you

0:38:55.120 --> 0:38:58.720
<v Speaker 2>are listening, I still do want to know. I'm thinking

0:38:58.760 --> 0:38:59.080
<v Speaker 2>as well.

0:38:59.160 --> 0:39:01.840
<v Speaker 3>Swan. I thought I had it.

0:39:01.880 --> 0:39:03.360
<v Speaker 2>At one point I text him in the middle of

0:39:03.400 --> 0:39:06.319
<v Speaker 2>the night because I thought I'd worked it, and it

0:39:06.400 --> 0:39:11.120
<v Speaker 2>turns out I hadn't. With Jesse, you did play you

0:39:11.320 --> 0:39:12.920
<v Speaker 2>played one, you played a show, didn't you at the

0:39:13.040 --> 0:39:16.080
<v Speaker 2>We did at the Green Now, how how was it?

0:39:16.080 --> 0:39:18.120
<v Speaker 2>It's a very small venue. It's the one on Parkway. Yes,

0:39:18.320 --> 0:39:22.840
<v Speaker 2>great tiny venue, amazing place. Until that point, when was

0:39:22.880 --> 0:39:25.360
<v Speaker 2>the last time you had played like a show when

0:39:25.520 --> 0:39:26.399
<v Speaker 2>you played in a show?

0:39:26.480 --> 0:39:28.480
<v Speaker 1>Me? I mean, I played quite a few shows in

0:39:28.520 --> 0:39:33.200
<v Speaker 1>the last year on my own, and I'm working towards

0:39:33.200 --> 0:39:35.600
<v Speaker 1>my own solo project again, and I have been doing

0:39:35.640 --> 0:39:38.279
<v Speaker 1>that for the last year or so, so I've done

0:39:38.440 --> 0:39:40.960
<v Speaker 1>quite a few shows my own. I think my last

0:39:40.960 --> 0:39:44.440
<v Speaker 1>show i've ALWASO got a project, a project that hite

0:39:44.440 --> 0:39:46.040
<v Speaker 1>that name, but it is a kind of a thing

0:39:46.920 --> 0:39:51.240
<v Speaker 1>with Norman Blake from Teenage Fan Club and James Grant,

0:39:51.280 --> 0:39:53.440
<v Speaker 1>who was in the group called Love and Money, two

0:39:53.440 --> 0:39:56.960
<v Speaker 1>Scottish singers. We were put together for the Celtic Connections festival.

0:39:57.400 --> 0:39:59.080
<v Speaker 1>Somebody said, do you want to come and do it

0:39:59.120 --> 0:40:01.279
<v Speaker 1>like a Roalm circle with these two guys for the night.

0:40:01.640 --> 0:40:04.239
<v Speaker 1>And I know Norman already and I love his song.

0:40:04.280 --> 0:40:07.319
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I'm the biggest Teenage fang Club song a fan,

0:40:08.880 --> 0:40:10.759
<v Speaker 1>so I jumped at it and I said, yeah, sure,

0:40:10.840 --> 0:40:11.480
<v Speaker 1>let's do that.

0:40:11.640 --> 0:40:13.279
<v Speaker 3>And we did it one night. It's sold out.

0:40:13.320 --> 0:40:15.120
<v Speaker 1>We did another night, and then we went and did

0:40:15.160 --> 0:40:18.239
<v Speaker 1>another night, and then the three of us said, you

0:40:18.280 --> 0:40:20.400
<v Speaker 1>know what, we've We're in this now. We should we

0:40:20.400 --> 0:40:22.600
<v Speaker 1>should keep doing this because it's a lot of fun,

0:40:22.640 --> 0:40:24.759
<v Speaker 1>and it is a lot of fun, and it's a

0:40:24.800 --> 0:40:29.919
<v Speaker 1>really really lovely night. You get to it's literally three

0:40:29.920 --> 0:40:33.719
<v Speaker 1>of us sitting and I sing a song, Norman sings

0:40:33.719 --> 0:40:35.959
<v Speaker 1>a song, James sings a song, and we all play

0:40:36.000 --> 0:40:37.960
<v Speaker 1>on each other's songs and it goes round like that.

0:40:38.400 --> 0:40:40.439
<v Speaker 1>It's brilliant fun because you look down the set list

0:40:40.480 --> 0:40:42.840
<v Speaker 1>and you're just thinking, there's some great songs here and

0:40:42.840 --> 0:40:46.600
<v Speaker 1>they're not mine that I can't wait to play everything

0:40:46.640 --> 0:40:48.920
<v Speaker 1>flows it's going to be brilliant because I love that

0:40:48.960 --> 0:40:51.000
<v Speaker 1>song and I'm like, wow, here I am with Norman.

0:40:51.440 --> 0:41:00.279
<v Speaker 1>Are you happiest when you're collaborating. I find doing my

0:41:00.360 --> 0:41:06.200
<v Speaker 1>own thing very very rewarding in a different way, but

0:41:06.360 --> 0:41:10.239
<v Speaker 1>it's it has an extra intensity that can put me

0:41:10.280 --> 0:41:13.080
<v Speaker 1>into a dark place, just like of anything you do.

0:41:13.280 --> 0:41:15.799
<v Speaker 1>You know, if you have anything that any of us do,

0:41:15.840 --> 0:41:19.560
<v Speaker 1>if it's if it's very solo and intense, you know

0:41:19.600 --> 0:41:21.319
<v Speaker 1>you need to break out of that every now and then.

0:41:21.719 --> 0:41:23.799
<v Speaker 1>I honestly I like all of the things I do.

0:41:23.880 --> 0:41:25.160
<v Speaker 3>I'm really I like.

0:41:25.200 --> 0:41:27.520
<v Speaker 1>I love the fact that I have the opportunity to

0:41:28.239 --> 0:41:29.040
<v Speaker 1>go in every.

0:41:28.800 --> 0:41:34.120
<v Speaker 2>Direction because you're not. You're someone that strikes me as collaborating.

0:41:34.160 --> 0:41:35.440
<v Speaker 2>Is what I always think of when I think a

0:41:35.520 --> 0:41:38.320
<v Speaker 2>burner butler, because you know, you've done so many different

0:41:39.200 --> 0:41:42.960
<v Speaker 2>projects and produce so many people, but you obviously really

0:41:43.040 --> 0:41:45.359
<v Speaker 2>know kind of what you what you want, and you

0:41:45.440 --> 0:41:47.799
<v Speaker 2>kind of you know, you make big calls and as

0:41:47.800 --> 0:41:50.560
<v Speaker 2>we've already spoken about, would you call yourself you can't

0:41:50.560 --> 0:41:51.480
<v Speaker 2>be a control freak?

0:41:51.880 --> 0:41:52.319
<v Speaker 3>Or are you?

0:41:53.160 --> 0:41:55.120
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I just don't believe in that term, right,

0:41:55.239 --> 0:41:57.359
<v Speaker 1>you know, I just don't believe in it. I love

0:41:57.360 --> 0:42:01.040
<v Speaker 1>people who have vision and who can artake what they want,

0:42:01.400 --> 0:42:04.960
<v Speaker 1>and I love watching I tend whenever I meet people

0:42:05.040 --> 0:42:09.160
<v Speaker 1>like that, particularly in my field. They're people who who

0:42:09.160 --> 0:42:12.640
<v Speaker 1>are good at delegating and bringing people in. They're the

0:42:12.640 --> 0:42:15.240
<v Speaker 1>people who are great at bringing you in and making

0:42:15.239 --> 0:42:17.880
<v Speaker 1>you feel involved and finding your place. I mean, the

0:42:18.280 --> 0:42:20.800
<v Speaker 1>nasty side of a control freak is somebody that actually

0:42:20.840 --> 0:42:23.319
<v Speaker 1>wants to be on their own and just keeps everybody out,

0:42:23.640 --> 0:42:26.359
<v Speaker 1>and so that that's not a collaborator at all. So

0:42:26.560 --> 0:42:32.839
<v Speaker 1>collaboration is all about bringing making people feel making making

0:42:32.880 --> 0:42:36.240
<v Speaker 1>people find a place that where they are at their best,

0:42:36.440 --> 0:42:39.880
<v Speaker 1>where they understand the vision and they can enjoy the

0:42:39.960 --> 0:42:42.360
<v Speaker 1>vision as much as you and express it, express what

0:42:42.400 --> 0:42:44.520
<v Speaker 1>you need to do. So no, I don't, I don't.

0:42:44.560 --> 0:42:47.080
<v Speaker 1>I mean, yeah, I've got a strong vision and strong

0:42:47.120 --> 0:42:49.480
<v Speaker 1>opinion of what I do, But I don't think that's

0:42:50.040 --> 0:42:51.960
<v Speaker 1>It's like not in a nasty thing. You're not going

0:42:52.000 --> 0:42:54.360
<v Speaker 1>around whipping people, you know, It's it's all with a

0:42:54.440 --> 0:42:55.600
<v Speaker 1>hug at the end of it.

0:42:55.840 --> 0:42:56.959
<v Speaker 3>The best, the best thing it.

0:42:56.840 --> 0:42:59.200
<v Speaker 1>Ever is that when you say, oh, you're really known

0:42:59.200 --> 0:43:02.920
<v Speaker 1>as a collaborator, but you know, actually with the biggest struggle,

0:43:02.920 --> 0:43:04.439
<v Speaker 1>of course, is that I'm known for being in one

0:43:04.600 --> 0:43:07.279
<v Speaker 1>group twenty eight years ago. But actually for you to

0:43:07.320 --> 0:43:09.600
<v Speaker 1>say that to me, it's just the hugest thing, because

0:43:09.800 --> 0:43:11.959
<v Speaker 1>it's the polar opposite of just being in a group

0:43:12.000 --> 0:43:15.120
<v Speaker 1>and doing nothing else. So and actually might for me.

0:43:15.320 --> 0:43:18.160
<v Speaker 1>My story is all as you say, it's all about

0:43:18.880 --> 0:43:22.160
<v Speaker 1>having gone through a million adventures with a million people,

0:43:22.480 --> 0:43:25.080
<v Speaker 1>and that's what I love. Mean, I love being around people.

0:43:25.360 --> 0:43:28.759
<v Speaker 1>On stage last night, I had fourteen people choir strings,

0:43:29.320 --> 0:43:31.360
<v Speaker 1>all sorts of people, and it was just such a joy,

0:43:31.400 --> 0:43:37.200
<v Speaker 1>you know, because it is me bringing people together, or

0:43:37.440 --> 0:43:39.919
<v Speaker 1>you know, it's kind of is my job to pick

0:43:40.040 --> 0:43:43.120
<v Speaker 1>musicians and find them and put them together and give

0:43:43.160 --> 0:43:48.360
<v Speaker 1>them a explain the vision you know that I need.

0:43:48.560 --> 0:43:50.600
<v Speaker 1>But it's also my job to make sure that they're

0:43:50.640 --> 0:43:54.360
<v Speaker 1>loving it, because that we're all having fun together, you

0:43:54.400 --> 0:43:57.280
<v Speaker 1>know that, because that is that comes across.

0:43:57.680 --> 0:43:58.840
<v Speaker 3>Is there anything we've missed?

0:43:59.080 --> 0:44:01.360
<v Speaker 1>Well, what could you possibly have missed about me?

0:44:01.520 --> 0:44:02.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

0:44:02.320 --> 0:44:06.359
<v Speaker 1>My, my, my absolute torture of having to go through

0:44:06.480 --> 0:44:08.080
<v Speaker 1>Arsenal as a as a Arsenal fan.

0:44:08.400 --> 0:44:09.640
<v Speaker 3>Quite currently. It was night.

0:44:10.040 --> 0:44:11.360
<v Speaker 1>It was a very bad night, but you know what,

0:44:11.400 --> 0:44:14.600
<v Speaker 1>I was doing a live TV show and knowing that

0:44:14.880 --> 0:44:18.239
<v Speaker 1>I was going to miss Arsenal, and I just had

0:44:18.239 --> 0:44:20.279
<v Speaker 1>to I wrote it off and just turn my phone

0:44:20.320 --> 0:44:22.880
<v Speaker 1>off and it was fine. And when I finished at

0:44:22.880 --> 0:44:25.440
<v Speaker 1>the end of the night and found out what happened,

0:44:25.960 --> 0:44:27.799
<v Speaker 1>the first thing I thought is, how can it be

0:44:27.960 --> 0:44:32.080
<v Speaker 1>easier for me to play music quite intense, you know,

0:44:32.200 --> 0:44:37.239
<v Speaker 1>quite demanding music live on TV? How can that be

0:44:37.360 --> 0:44:40.680
<v Speaker 1>easier and more comfortable than watching a football match? And

0:44:40.800 --> 0:44:43.919
<v Speaker 1>yet I would do it over and over again. Yeah,

0:44:43.960 --> 0:44:49.280
<v Speaker 1>So I mean that's I'm yes, that's that's my torture,

0:44:49.400 --> 0:44:50.200
<v Speaker 1>my happy torture.

0:44:50.400 --> 0:44:52.840
<v Speaker 3>I'm an evident fan. Oh.

0:44:54.120 --> 0:44:58.239
<v Speaker 2>For previous episodes of Midnight Chat, simply search your podcast

0:44:58.360 --> 0:45:01.480
<v Speaker 2>app and don't forget to follow or subscribe in order

0:45:01.520 --> 0:45:05.360
<v Speaker 2>to receive new episodes as that published every week at midnight.

0:45:05.760 --> 0:45:08.720
<v Speaker 2>For more information on the music magazine that makes this series,

0:45:08.960 --> 0:45:13.640
<v Speaker 2>visit loud and Quiet dot com. Anyway, goodnight,