1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. 2 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 2: I'm welcome to Stephan never told you protection of iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 2: And welcome to another edition sub sub sub sub segment 4 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 2: of fictional women around the World. And this is Pride Edition. 5 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 2: And I really waffled on this one. Which is a 6 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,520 Speaker 2: word that Samantha was telling me is not a word 7 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 2: in the way that I use it. Maybe it's not. 8 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 1: It is It is a failure to make up one's mind. 9 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 2: Ah, I have no doubt it. 10 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. It says leaves us squandering or leaves us in 11 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: indecisive waffle. Yeah, as the example, I have never vindicated. 12 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 2: I feel vindicated. 13 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: You should be British is different, by the way. 14 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 2: Though, Oh is it quaffle? 15 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: No waffle? Waffled In British terms, speak or write, especially 16 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: at great length without saying anything, or we need the 17 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: trivial or useless talking. 18 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 2: I could fit both, to be honest. 19 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: So if I call you a waffle means you're trivial. 20 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 2: All are unimportant like waffles. This is kind of what 21 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 2: the audiobook experience was like. It was like, oh, that's 22 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 2: what that means. Oh, and in Brutish it means this. 23 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: Yes, I love it because we had a British director producer. 24 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: She was like, this is not what that means here 25 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: and in like English, in the UK English, this is 26 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: how we say it, right. 27 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was funny. There's a running joke over on 28 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 2: Savor that I'm a sleeper British spy because I say 29 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 2: things in the UK English a lot, and she mentioned 30 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 2: it when we were doing the audio book. She was like, yeah, 31 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 2: you're You're doing a lot of the UK stations, Like, 32 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 2: oh my gosh, maybe it's true. 33 00:01:58,560 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: I watched Harry Potter a lot. 34 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 2: That's all it is. 35 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, okay, but I waffled about this one, and 36 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 3: I'm sure some of you were screaming about how I 37 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 3: picked it because it is problematic in a plethora of. 38 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 2: Ways, and we're going to talk about some of them. 39 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 2: But I also can't deny this was one of the 40 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 2: first times, legitimately I saw a lesbian couple on TV, 41 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 2: more specifically in the mainstream but like ever on TV 42 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 2: at all, and it really impacted me. It did. And yes, 43 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 2: we are talking about Buffy the Vampire Slayers, Willow Rosenberg 44 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 2: and her relationship with Tara McLay, and we're mostly focusing 45 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 2: on the show you made fun of how long this 46 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 2: outline is. I didn't even put in any of the 47 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 2: comic book stuff because I was like, well and eventually 48 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 2: I'm just going to be explaining everything, and like five 49 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 2: hours later, maybe we'll be done. So I'm focusing on 50 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,799 Speaker 2: Buffy the Vampire Slayer, not Angel, which she also appeared on, 51 00:02:57,800 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 2: and I do I did watch. I watched both, but 52 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 2: I can't remember Angel as well. Yes, and it does 53 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 2: come with the Joss Whedon disclaimer because a lot of 54 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 2: stuff has come out about the set of this show 55 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 2: and how weedn treated women specifically and young women specifically, 56 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 2: which is incredibly disheartening because it did feel so refreshing 57 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 2: and so feminist in a lot of ways. Past host 58 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 2: have talked about it, and that tarnishes the whole thing, unfortunately, 59 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 2: but I have to think about it. So this character 60 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 2: was first played by Riff Reagan in the movie, but 61 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 2: largely has been played by Alison Hannigan, who dyed her 62 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 2: hair red for the part. I did not know that 63 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 2: because I guess he was like, we have a blonde, 64 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 2: we have a brunette, we need to red or something 65 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: like that. So yeah, So while this romance between these 66 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 2: characters Tara. I always say Tara, but it might be Tara. 67 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: It's been a long time since I've watched this show, 68 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 2: and Willow was very groundbreaking at the time. It was 69 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 2: handled somewhat clumsily and so aspects, especially in hindsight. And 70 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 2: that's not to diminish the impact it had at all, 71 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 2: because again, it really did impact me and a lot 72 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 2: of people. But I remember, even as kind of a younger, 73 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 2: not as educated in terms of queer literature person, that 74 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 2: I was raising my eyebrow a few lines in there 75 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 2: about it. That being said, I think you can make 76 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 2: the arguments that the characters were growing too, because I, 77 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 2: for one remember, and I hate this, but it's true. 78 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 2: I remember desperately wanting to be straight and afraid that 79 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 2: I wasn't, which is toxic bullshit. But I suspect that 80 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 2: this was less character driven and more writer driven and 81 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 2: just how things were spoken about at the time. But 82 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 2: I do see like some people make the argument like, oh, well, 83 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 2: they were young and growing and learning all that kind 84 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 2: of stuff, all right, So the history. Buffy the Vampire 85 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 2: Slayer was an American drama slash horror slash comedy created 86 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 2: and largely written and directed by Joss Whedon that ran 87 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 2: from nineteen ninety seven to two thousand and three. It 88 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 2: was crazy. 89 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: The movie was to I don't know, so the movie 90 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: is Buffy the Vampire Slayer. 91 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 2: There is. I don't know that he had anything to 92 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 2: do with that, but he created the show. 93 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: Okay, it was not created Buffy the Vampire Slayer because 94 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 1: it starts off the same mm hmm. It is based 95 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: off all the same things, So that's all I'm one, Yes, okay, 96 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: but specifically to this show, but not necessarily. 97 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 2: The characters, right, Okay, there, Yes, I believe that's correct. However, 98 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 2: it has spawned a whole host of other media, like comics. 99 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 2: So many comics. It follows a young woman and vampire slayer, 100 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: Buffy Summers and her friends nicknamed the Scooby Gang, and 101 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 2: their battles against evil in the town of Sunnydale. My 102 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 2: little brother used to live in sunny Vale. Yeah, and 103 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 2: so I always get confused. It's sunny Dale. Sunnydale aka 104 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 2: the hell Mouth. Buffy's best friend is a witch named 105 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 2: Willow Rosenberg. In the beginning, she's shy, she's a bit 106 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 2: of a nerd, but she goes on to become a 107 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 2: powerful and dangerous witch. By some accounts, she's Erth's greatest witch, 108 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 2: their most powerful witch. She was smart, level headed, determined, shy, sweet, 109 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 2: and not one to hold a grudge, but at the 110 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 2: same time vengeful, very very vengeful. We're going to talk 111 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 2: about that. She was a very powerful magic user. She 112 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 2: could do all kinds of things, like the whole host 113 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 2: of things. She often expressed frustration about being childish or 114 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 2: being perceived as childish, and later was weighed down with 115 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 2: a lot of self doubt and guilt about dark Willow, 116 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 2: which we'll talk about again in a second. But before that, Yes, 117 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 2: she was a nerd, and she was a go to 118 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 2: for tutoring. Because of this, she was the target of 119 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 2: popular student Cordelia Chase, leading Willow to create the We 120 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 2: Hate Cordelia Club. She had a huge unrequited crush on 121 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 2: her best friend Xander, whom she'd grown up with, but 122 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 2: he had a huge unrequited crush on their shared best friend, Buffy, 123 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 2: and some of Buffy's advice about seizing the day led 124 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 2: Willow unknowingly to go on a date with a vampire 125 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 2: as you do, and having to be rescued by Buffy. 126 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 2: Buffy told Willow about her secret identity as a vampire slayer, 127 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 2: and then they became BFFs, and Willow dedicated herself to 128 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 2: learning more about the supernatural so she could help Buffy, 129 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 2: although that kind of came later on. In the early day, 130 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 2: she was much more like research. I'll help you with research, 131 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 2: libraries and computing and hacking and all that. This led 132 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 2: to her almost getting killed by some demons she met 133 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 2: on the internet, but that's also how it goes sometimes. 134 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 2: After witnessing several deaths and having several nearly fatal run ins, 135 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 2: Willow started to evolve. She became more out spoken and assertive. 136 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 2: She confronted Xander over choosing to date Cordelia over her, 137 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 2: and went about moving on with a guitarist named Oz 138 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 2: played by Seth Green, who we discussed I had a 139 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 2: crush on. Yes, yes, it turns out he's aware wolf 140 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 2: and he almost killed Willow on accident, but she continued 141 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 2: to date him. 142 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: I got that plotline. 143 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's a blastomas. After Buffy's vampire love and 144 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 2: just Angel killed one of Willow's favorite technopagan teachers, Willow 145 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 2: taught her her classes for the remainder of the year, 146 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 2: and she used the materials that the teacher had left 147 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 2: behind to learn more about witchcraft, including the original ritual 148 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 2: that was used to in Soul Angel decades before. She 149 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 2: set about learning it and succeeded right before Buffy was 150 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 2: going to kill Angel. It was a whole dramatic thing. 151 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 2: Willow decided she wanted to learn magic to help Buffy 152 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 2: fight evil. She briefly took over leadership of the Scooby 153 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 2: Gang while Buffy was away and led them on largely 154 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 2: unsuccessful vampire hunts. Out they're trying, she started practicing spells 155 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 2: and blessings. She joined a covin, though they became targets 156 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 2: of an anti occult group that included Willow's mother. Xander 157 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 2: and Willow continued to kind of dance around each other 158 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 2: despite the fact that they were involved with other people, 159 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:43,439 Speaker 2: and they shared a kiss and a tense situation with 160 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:48,079 Speaker 2: both of their respective partners witnessing it. Xander and Cordelia 161 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 2: broke up, but Willow and Oz worked it out. At 162 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 2: one point, Willow joined forces with ex vengeance demon Anya 163 00:09:55,880 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 2: and accidentally summoned or released her vampire counterpart from another dimension. 164 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 2: Yes she is stunned to learn that vampire Willow is 165 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: attracted to women, and later, after losing her memory, Willow says, 166 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 2: I think I'm kind of gay. So they were like 167 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 2: Hents early on earlier Seawan. Though Willow got into many 168 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 2: Ivy League colleges, she opted to go to university in Sunnydale, 169 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 2: so she keep fighting it alongside Buffy, at one point 170 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 2: believing that she was going to die without exploring her 171 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,319 Speaker 2: relationship with Oz. They had sex together it was Willow's 172 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 2: first time. Later, Oz cheated on her with another werewolf 173 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 2: named Veruka, and he left town, leaving Willow heartbroken. She 174 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 2: attempted to curse them both, but was interrupted when Varuka 175 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 2: tried to kill her, and Oz killed Veruka to stop her. 176 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 2: Oz left fearful of putting Willow in danger. Willow wrote 177 00:10:57,559 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 2: letters to him, but didn't know where to send them 178 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 2: and grew increasingly bitter, casting a spell that accidentally put 179 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 2: her friends in danger, which is a kind of common 180 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,959 Speaker 2: thread of her story. Actually, she was able to reverse 181 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 2: it and was offered to become a vengeance demon, but 182 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 2: she turned it down. So she joined up with the 183 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 2: campus WICCA group, but found only one of them actually 184 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 2: had experience with magic, and it was shy, Timid but 185 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 2: serious Tara McLay played by Amber Benson. After an encounter 186 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 2: with some monsters. They become friends and have regular meetups 187 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 2: to practice magic, and Twillow eventually introduces Tara to the gang. 188 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 2: Over time, they became really, really, really close and they 189 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 2: fell in love, though they kept that part quiet but drama. 190 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 2: Oz returned claiming he had his wolf side tamped down 191 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 2: and that he wanted to continue his relationship with Willow, 192 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 2: and Willow is really torn and she goes to Buffy 193 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 2: and comes out to Buffy and explains how she feels 194 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 2: about when Oz found out it turns out his wolf's 195 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 2: side was not so much in control he left down 196 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 2: once again. Willow told Tara she was the one she loved. Spike, 197 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 2: who if you have never seen this show, you might 198 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 2: be so confused and what a ride this must be, 199 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,839 Speaker 2: But he's a vampire. He, along with others, tried to 200 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 2: split the Scoobies up, and one of the ways that 201 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 2: they did that was essentially by outing Willow to everyone 202 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 2: by revealing her relationship with Tara. It didn't work. Willow's 203 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,839 Speaker 2: power grew massively and her feelings for Tara strengthened. When 204 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 2: she found out about the abuse and the lies that 205 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 2: Tara had to grow up and deal with with her family. 206 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 2: But Tara was worried about how much Willow was relying 207 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 2: on magic and how much she was using it, and 208 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 2: it led to a fight between them, one of many 209 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 2: when a powerful evil hell goddess named Glory attacked Tara, 210 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 2: leaving her insane. A spiteful Willow attacked Glory. Even though 211 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 2: Buffy did her best convince her not to, she spat 212 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,599 Speaker 2: in the goddess's face. Willow did injure her, but was 213 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 2: almost killed in the effort. So Buffy was trying to 214 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 2: tell her, like you're not strong enough, she'll kill you, 215 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 2: don't do it anyway. Glory then cursed Buffy to be catatonic, 216 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 2: but Willow was able to pull her out of her 217 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 2: own mind and then restore Tara's mind and helped slow 218 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 2: down Glory. However, Buffy had to sacrifice herself to save 219 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 2: her sister Dawn. Willow became the Scooby's leader. After she died. 220 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 2: She looked after Dawn and told Angel about Buffy's death. However, 221 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 2: using magic in the help of her friends, she was 222 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 2: able to resurrect Buffy. Though many express concerns with her 223 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:51,079 Speaker 2: channeling such powerful deep magic. Tara argued that she developed 224 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 2: an addiction to magic, but Willow, who yes was addicted 225 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,959 Speaker 2: to magic this is very culiarly like a metaphor for 226 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 2: drug addiction, used it to erase the memory of the 227 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 2: fight from Tara's brain. So when she discovered that Buffy, 228 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 2: Willow discovered that Buffy had been in Heaven and not 229 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 2: in hell as which is what she believed. She discussed 230 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 2: erasing the memory of heaven from Buffy's mind, which caused 231 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 2: another argument between her and Tara. To reassure her, Willow 232 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 2: swore not to use magic for an entire week, but 233 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 2: immediately backtracked and tried to cast a spell to race 234 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 2: both Tara and Buffy's memories of her using it excessively, 235 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 2: but it backfired. It gave them all amnesia, put them 236 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 2: all at risk when their memories were restored. Tara broke 237 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 2: up with Willow. The pain of the breakup and the 238 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 2: absence of Tara's presence allowed for Willow's addiction to spiral 239 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 2: out of control. She started going to a dark magic dealer, 240 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 2: at one point, putting Dawn in danger and ignoring the 241 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 2: concerns of her friends and accidentally summoning a demon while 242 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 2: high on magic. Dawn was injured in their escape, and 243 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 2: Willow finally had to face these consequences of her actions, 244 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 2: and she swore off magic and instead went back to 245 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 2: her tech skills. Willow and Tara reconciled, and while they 246 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 2: were laying in bed, Tara was shot and killed by 247 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 2: a bullet met for Buffy, fired by this guy named Warren. 248 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 2: Willow tried to use magic to bring Tara back, but 249 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 2: she couldn't, so her grief transformed to rage. She absorbed 250 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 2: all the dark magic she could. It turned her hair 251 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,359 Speaker 2: and her eyes black. She had like these black veins 252 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 2: going everywhere. She abandoned her old life and her friends 253 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 2: and embraced the dark, eventually using magic to flay Warren alive. 254 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 2: And this is one of the most memorable scenes for 255 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 2: the whole series for me. I remember this episode in 256 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 2: this arc very clearly. 257 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: I think I stopped watching at this point. 258 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 2: Oh there's one part where she's like on a semi 259 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 2: truck and the music is like, oh, like, I'll never 260 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 2: forget it. I bet people listening some of you. 261 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: Know, yeah, because I don't know. Obviously, I did not 262 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: watch this. 263 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 2: They did call her Dark Willow, which became kind of 264 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 2: a haunting. It kind of became a joke people would 265 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 2: use what they'd say, I don't want to go all 266 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 2: dark Willow, and it really messed with it messed with her. 267 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 2: This is like one of the things that hangs over 268 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 2: her a lot that she well, I mean rightfully, So 269 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 2: she did a lot of bad Yeah yeah, but that's 270 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 2: like her big after this is being too afraid. Well anyway, 271 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 2: I'm getting ahead of myself. So okay, okay. So Buffy 272 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 2: fought Willow, but Willow had cast a super strength spell 273 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 2: on herself and declared I'm the slayer now. She then 274 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 2: absorbed Giles's magic along with the magic he borrowed to 275 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 2: fight Willow. Sensing all the pain of the world and 276 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 2: overcome with it, she decided that it was time to 277 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 2: end the world, so Xanders. She tries to start the apocalypse, 278 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 2: but Xander stopped her when he refused to leave her side. 279 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 2: No matter what the power she'd stolen from, Giles left her, 280 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 2: and she broke down in grief over everything that she 281 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 2: had done. Giles, along with others, helped her in rehabilitating 282 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 2: and controlling and connecting to her magic, though she was 283 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 2: much more hesitant to use it now. She was so 284 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 2: scared of reuniting with her friends that she accidentally cast 285 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,959 Speaker 2: a spell that rendered her invisible. She started dating the 286 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 2: potential slayer Kennedy very reluctantly, and after their first kiss, 287 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 2: a curse started to transform her into Warren as punishment 288 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 2: and using her to continue his violent rampage. Kennedy helped 289 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 2: her stop it before she fully transformed by getting her 290 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 2: to face her grief over what had happened to Tara. Gradually, 291 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 2: Willow became more confident in using her magic again, helping 292 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 2: out Angel and Cordelia at Buffy's behesse, Willow used her 293 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 2: magic and tech skills to activate several potential slow all 294 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 2: around the world. Her hair turned pure white in the process, 295 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:11,959 Speaker 2: and like Kennedy deified her, I don't know, uh, And 296 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 2: then she famously said that was nifty, and they got 297 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 2: out of sunny Dale before it was destroyed. Then this 298 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 2: is where like I'm going to condense so much because 299 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 2: that's the end of the show. This is we're moving 300 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 2: into like comics territory. 301 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 1: Oh. 302 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 2: She spent some time in Brazil with Kennedy, was given 303 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 2: the choice to have Tara as a spiritual guide, but 304 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 2: turned it down when she realized it would either be 305 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 2: an illusion or would rip Tara from the afterlife. Then 306 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 2: Kennedy died and was resurrected, and Willow revealed she believed 307 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,679 Speaker 2: Tara's death was her punishment for resurrecting Buffy. Willow was 308 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:53,640 Speaker 2: then kidnapped by a flayed Warren, who revealed he'd been 309 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 2: revived soon after Willow killed him by an ex friend 310 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 2: of Willow's, Amy, who by the way, spent a lot 311 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 2: of the show was at trapped in rat FORMA. 312 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: Oh, I remember that episode, the one that took over 313 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: the mom or the mom's body they switched. 314 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure it was early Yeah, yeah. 315 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:14,120 Speaker 1: I remember this episode. 316 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 2: I think she was rat for like five seasons. 317 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 1: I think she just disappeared. 318 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 2: No, Willow kept her as a pit because. 319 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: That was a doll, that was a trophy. Never mind, 320 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 1: I switched it. 321 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 2: Okay, Well we had a moment and then it was 322 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 2: all wrong. 323 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: But that's I do feel like I remember the rat thing. 324 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, ok, yeah, Well, Amy was very jealous of Willow 325 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 2: and had also been there during her dark magic times 326 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 2: and was like, let's try more dark magic, so she 327 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 2: didn't seem like she was great, but anyway, she also 328 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 2: spent a long time as a rat who knows, so 329 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,719 Speaker 2: this like flayed version of Warren tried to bottomize Willow, 330 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 2: but Willow was rescued by Buffy. A vision of the 331 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 2: future revealed that Dark Willow returned and there was a 332 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 2: world without magic at some point, and Willow worked with 333 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 2: Angel and his son Connor to restore it, but she 334 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 2: accidentally absorbed too much dark magic in the process, and 335 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 2: then she kind of briefly went evil and kicked some ass, 336 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 2: like dropped aim mountain on somebody, but was able to 337 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 2: come back. A little dramatic, A lot of it, I 338 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 2: mean a lot of It's pretty dramatic, let's be honest. 339 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 2: I watched, like I said, I remember her showing up 340 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 2: on Angel, but I don't remember this, so I don't know. 341 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 2: That might have been the show, or it might have 342 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 2: been the comics. But a super coven tried to convince 343 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 2: Willow to stay in their paradise dimension and forget about 344 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,400 Speaker 2: saving Earth, but Willow realized that there was no Light 345 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 2: Willow and no Dark Willow. There was just Willow. She 346 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 2: dueled her disguised ex dark Magic Dealer eventually restored her magic, 347 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 2: and at one point she stopped Tara from being resurrected 348 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 2: because she was happy in heaven. She was called the 349 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 2: mad Woman in this dystopian future. Please if you've read 350 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,719 Speaker 2: the comics, Oh my gosh, let me know, because I 351 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 2: was reading this like whoa. 352 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. Just to clarify, Also, because I did look it up. 353 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: Joss Whedon did do the screenplay for the movie. 354 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 2: Oh okay, so he did. 355 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 1: He did do it all of that. He didn't direct 356 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: it necessarily, but he did write the movie. So this 357 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 1: is all his baby. He changed it vastly, obviously, because 358 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 1: the first one is a complete comedy. Yeah, a little 359 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 1: bit like a little bit of darkness, but not this. 360 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think I've watched that movie during the pandemic 361 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 2: for the first time, and I was like, whoa. 362 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: I watched it when it first came out. Oh yeah, 363 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,199 Speaker 1: and this was one of my go to movies with 364 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: one of my best friends. We could have quote all 365 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: the lines. It's one of those movies for me. 366 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to go back and rewatch it because 367 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 2: I didn't know Willow was in there. But yes, yes, 368 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 2: that's yes. Pigs for clarifying. So this character was groundbreaking 369 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 2: in a lot of ways. There are also a lot 370 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 2: of issues we could talk about here. One of the 371 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 2: big ones is the barrier gaze trope. So Willow didn't die, 372 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 2: but there was a massive backlash when Terra died, with 373 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 2: Nie saying that this really played into that trope, which 374 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 2: is basically what it sounds like. Killing off the few 375 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 2: gay characters that there are usually fairly quickly and in 376 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 2: some tragic way to further plotlines, which is fair critique 377 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 2: in this I will say, Tara, it's not she was 378 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 2: there for a minute, but yeah, she did get killed 379 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 2: off while they were having a sweet moment in bed. 380 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 2: Wheden was also accused as being homophobic at the time. 381 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 2: I don't think either of these actors are gay. But 382 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 2: one of the things I vaguely remember was there was 383 00:22:52,960 --> 00:23:00,040 Speaker 2: this idea in the show and just around like the 384 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 2: reaction to the show that that was like turned to gay, 385 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 2: Like she got turned gay. But Buffy does have a 386 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 2: line where she's like, as you you know, back in 387 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 2: the past somehow with her present day memories and it's 388 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 2: their high school time, and she has this line where 389 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 2: she's like, oh, you don't realize. You're not basically implying 390 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 2: Willow doesn't realize she's gay yet. So, as I said, 391 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 2: it can be a process. It's quite possible she didn't know, 392 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 2: and then there's a whole conversation this is actually more recent, 393 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 2: like maybe she was by. 394 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 1: Well, that's the first thing I was gonna ask recently. 395 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: I was like, because she really was in love with 396 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: the Seth Green character, Like, right, all of that, So 397 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: could she not have just been By or Pan one 398 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: of those two things and not necessarily just lesbian? But 399 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 1: I mean, there's nothing wrong with being a LESBIANI I 400 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: just wondered, because. 401 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because it's a big conversation around by rasure 402 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 2: and she did. I think she had three steady relationships 403 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 2: with dudes before she met Tara, and then after that 404 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 2: they were all women, and she made a lot of 405 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 2: lesbian jokes after that. But Weedon has said that if 406 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 2: the show were made today, she would be by, but 407 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 2: at the time audiences weren't ready and would see it 408 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 2: as a phase. So here's the quote. It was like, Okay, 409 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 2: you can make Willow bye, but you can't say this 410 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 2: is a phase, because that's what people do to deny 411 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 2: their existence. So if I did it now, I'd be like, yes, 412 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 2: she can be by because some people are. But back 413 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 2: then it was like, no, we're not ready for that. Also, 414 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 2: there's I kind of chuckled because I forgot about the 415 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: whole Vampire Willow being into women and that I was like, 416 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 2: that feels so like lesbians are evil and like, hey, people, 417 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 2: what are they up to? 418 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: But she was also dating the dark Xander character I think, so, yeah, 419 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: that was the alternate universe that Cordelia creates when she's 420 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: mad at Xander with the revenge. 421 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's where. 422 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: The Dark Willow order the Vampire Willow came from. I 423 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: did remember this episode. 424 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 2: Aesthetic Yeah, yeah, as Dandrel. 425 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 1: Was an a vampire too, I think, and the two 426 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: of them were real dark and evil, but they would 427 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: always make out with each other. But she also liked 428 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 1: women too, right. I don't think she was full on. 429 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 2: Right, but it does kind of play into that that 430 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 2: we've talked about before, that sort of sexualization of gay 431 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 2: people where it's like, oh she's evil, now she's everybody 432 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 2: like m M. But it was groundbreaking. It was one 433 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 2: of the first lesbian couples in mainstream at media that 434 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 2: wasn't a punchline or used for shock factor, which we 435 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,239 Speaker 2: discussed recently. And I watched Buffy the Vampire Slayer as 436 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 2: a young person, and I remember being so blown away 437 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,719 Speaker 2: by it and the way it was treated like it 438 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,120 Speaker 2: wasn't a big deal in the context of the show. 439 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 2: That's just it was. They loved each other, that was it. 440 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: It did definitely came off as if like because most 441 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: of the things, especially in that generation or that timeframe, 442 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 1: was like it came from a mel gaze, like obviously 443 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 1: their sexual lives and this is like out of a 444 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: male men's fantasy level of lesbian and this is and 445 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: the two of them were cute together and like genuinely 446 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 1: sweet and loving and it wasn't for anybody but them, 447 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 1: but being in a relationship necessarily, so like, oh that 448 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: is different. And it didn't make you uncomfortable because they 449 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: weren't overtly sexual, no, as of like being all the 450 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,120 Speaker 1: time making out and like trying to address each other 451 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: and then staying at a dude as of right, that's 452 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: who it's for. 453 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, they had like a really sweet relationship and like 454 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 2: most of the scenes I remember of their relationship, are 455 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 2: you know, like kind of just like gentle kisses, or 456 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 2: there's a scene where they're helping Terror's helping Willow pick 457 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,120 Speaker 2: out her clothes, like it's a lot of just kind 458 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 2: of a sweet, like normal couple stuff. 459 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 1: It really was. 460 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was the first long term lesbian relationship 461 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 2: depicted on mainstream television, so that means it'd get a 462 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 2: lot of backlash when the character was revealed as gay, 463 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 2: But Weeden said, for every negative post, there's somebody saying 464 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 2: you made my life a lot easier because I now 465 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 2: have someone I can relate to on screen. So there's 466 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 2: that importance of representation and good genuine representation. When Willow 467 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,959 Speaker 2: had sex with the potential Slayer Kennedy in the seventh season, 468 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 2: it was one of the first lesbian sex scenes on television. Yes, 469 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 2: and this kind of cracked me up because, like I said, 470 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 2: the Dark Willow arc is one of the most memorable 471 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 2: things to me. But Willow is often described as having 472 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 2: largely healthy relationships pre magic, addiction and post recovery, and 473 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 2: even then, people pointing out like Tara realized Willow was 474 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 2: bad for her and left, unlike Buffy who kept staying 475 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 2: of these toxic relationships she was also Jewish culturally and religiously. 476 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 2: She described herself as a Jewish Wickan, and there are 477 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 2: plenty of instances throughout the show where she makes a 478 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 2: comment about growing up Jewish, being Jewish, and she was 479 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 2: a woman in Stem, although some articles I read pointed 480 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 2: out like that part felt so quickly abandoned when she 481 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 2: discovered the magic, which I get, but I also get 482 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 2: why that might annoy you a woman in Stem, where 483 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 2: it's like, nah, don't do this computer stuff anymore. 484 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:19,360 Speaker 1: That's funny. 485 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, So she was in a lot of ways. She 486 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 2: made it. She made a pretty big impact for a 487 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 2: lot of people. So I know, we got to talk 488 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 2: about all the problematic stuff, but I wanted I just 489 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 2: remember her having such a big impact on me when 490 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 2: I was young. So here you go. And I know 491 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 2: I glossed over so much and I probably made some 492 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 2: mistakes because it's complicated to describe things like this, I 493 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 2: tell you, so let me know so long ago too. 494 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 2: I know I haven't rewatched it forever. Yeah, I try. 495 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: To rewatch it because it came of course, it came 496 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: back up, and we were talking about Petro Pascal being 497 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: in the first like, yeah, thanks seasons like what, I've 498 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: rewatched it. I saw him. I was like, best what 499 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: But yeah, like I try to rewatch it, still couldn't 500 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: make it all the way through it. 501 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 2: I really liked it. I mean some of those some 502 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,959 Speaker 2: of the episodes I remember very clearly. But yeah, it 503 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 2: has been a minute since I've watched it. So if 504 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 2: I made any mistakes, or if you have any notice 505 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 2: about the comics or thoughts about this at all, you 506 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 2: can email us at STEPHANIEA mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. 507 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 2: You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast, 508 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 2: or on Instagram and TikTok and Stuff I Ever Told You. 509 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 2: We're also on YouTube. We have a book coming out. 510 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 2: You can pre order it at stuff you should read 511 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 2: Books dot com. I hear you can pre order it 512 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 2: on Audible as well. We have a Tea Public store. 513 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 2: We've got some new merch on there, so check that out. 514 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 2: Thanks as always to our super producer Christina, our executive 515 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 2: producer Maya, and our contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks 516 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 2: to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You sbstrection 517 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 2: of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, 518 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 2: you can check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or 519 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 2: Regulus and to your favorite shows