1 00:00:01,160 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Did you know that doge was originally created under Obama 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: as the US Digital Service, So how did it become 3 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: today's Doge. We'll ask that question to our next guest. Also, 4 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: the Trump administration is facing something like over eighty lawsuits 5 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: ranging from issues like refugees to birthright citizenships to doge's 6 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: access to government databases? Will the left be able to 7 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,600 Speaker 1: hold up his agenda in the courts? Also, what's the 8 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: Empowerment Control Act? I'm going to ask all these questions 9 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: to our next guest, who is a brilliant legal mind. 10 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: He is also the author of Lawless, The Miseducation of 11 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,599 Speaker 1: America's Elites, and he knows something about it because when 12 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: he was at Georgetown Law he faced a four month 13 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: investigation over a tweet. So what was that tweet and 14 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: what was that investigation like? And what did he learn 15 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: about the miseducation of America's elites during that time? His 16 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: name is Ilia Shapiro. You've probably heard him, you see 17 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: on TV, you read something that he's written, because he 18 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: has written a lot. He's a brilliant legal mind and 19 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: currently the Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute and Director 20 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 1: of Constitutional Studies. You have read his work, You've seen 21 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: him on TV. The guy is brilliant. He's also done 22 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: something like filed more than five hundred Front of the 23 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: Court briefs in the Supreme Court, so he knows a 24 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: thing or two about the law. It's a fascinating conversation 25 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: with a fascinating guy. So stay tuned for Ilia Shapiro. 26 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: Ilia Shapiro, I really appreciate you making the time. Obviously, 27 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: there are a lot of lawsuits at the administration spacing 28 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: and a lot of a lot of legal issues to 29 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: get into, so I'm looking forward to having you break 30 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: this all down for us. So I really appreciate you 31 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: making the time my pleasure. So will you say something 32 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: that surprised me that DOGE was originally created under Obama 33 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: as the US Digital Service, So explain that, you know, 34 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: why was it created then, and then how is it 35 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,279 Speaker 1: being used today as DOGE. 36 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, indeed, it was created under Obama as the US 37 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 2: Digital Service to help federal agencies with their websites and 38 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 2: other adaptations to big tech, to the Internet age. And 39 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 2: it was an agency within an office within the Executive 40 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 2: Office of the President, just like the White House Counsel's 41 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 2: Office or the Council of Economic Advisors, or the there's 42 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 2: an Office on Science and Technology, all of these things 43 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 2: that are not Senate confirmed. They're just appointed by the 44 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 2: president as staffers, aids, assistants on various issues. And what 45 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 2: Trump did was rename the US Digital Service, changed the 46 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 2: d from Digital to DOGE, and DOGE in turns stands 47 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 2: for Department of Government Offficiency, and hired a bunch of 48 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 2: people led by Elon Musk as special government employees. That's 49 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 2: a technical legal term from the relevant statute, which means 50 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,679 Speaker 2: they're duly appointed to help with all sorts of digital 51 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 2: stuff and to look at data from different agencies, and 52 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 2: they're charged with cutting out waste, fraud, and abuse. So 53 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 2: they are fully legally authorized. This is not just you know, 54 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 2: Elon gave a bunch of money to Trump and therefore 55 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 2: now gets to be some shadowy, I don't know, resputant 56 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 2: figure with no legal authority. It's you know, certain things 57 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 2: that DOGE might be trying to do, such as firing 58 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 2: workers who have civil service protections, might run into legal heat. 59 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 2: But for the most part, the mission, the structure, the 60 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 2: authority of DOGE is not contestable. 61 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: You know, and we have seen that legal heat. I 62 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 1: guess what limitation does doge face? You know, there have 63 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: been lawsuits, particularly with access to certain databases, certain government databases. 64 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: So are there limitations here or kind of walk us 65 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: through the legal angles of all of that. 66 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, And the most recently Dose has been winning a 67 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,239 Speaker 2: series of judicial rulings. I think in the early stages, 68 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 2: it was just so new that judges didn't know what 69 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 2: to do with it, so they were issuing temporary restraining 70 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 2: orders for you know, ten or fourteen days. And then 71 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 2: they realized that it was improper to stop, say the 72 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 2: Department of the Treasury Secretary, the Senate confirmed Treasury secretary 73 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 2: or his agents from looking at payroll processing systems and 74 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 2: things like that. That the what Trump was doing was 75 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 2: wholly within What Musque was doing was wholly within the 76 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 2: executive branch, and it is up to the executive to 77 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 2: reorganize itself. There's some questions about, you know, are they 78 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 2: not fulfilling what Congress legislated. Congress appropriated x million for 79 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 2: you know, usaid, how can they not spend that that's 80 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 2: called impoundment and it's illegal. Well, I mean, there was 81 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 2: a pause and Congress didn't specify which specific contracts had 82 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 2: to be funded, you know, the twenty thousand dollars for 83 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 2: a transgender opera in Peru or something like that. The 84 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 2: Congress doesn't micromanage like that, and so as long as 85 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 2: the administration ends up spending the appropriated money by the 86 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: end of the fiscal year, they'd be okay. But simply say, 87 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 2: moving some functions of aid into the State department, closing 88 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 2: some contracts, this is all within kind of normal or 89 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 2: management of the executive branch. In fact, President Clinton probably 90 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 2: comes closest to what this might be with his Reinventing 91 00:05:55,680 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 2: Government project. You might recall thirty years ago Gore was 92 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 2: tasked with reinventing government. Part of that was offering buyouts 93 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 2: to federal employees, just like Doge has done, apparently netting 94 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 2: seventy five thousand early retirements something like that. Part of 95 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:17,559 Speaker 2: it is streamlining agencies. So you know, there's very little 96 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: new under the sun, even if Elon Musk's kind of 97 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 2: larger than life figure and excitable character makes this look 98 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 2: like something unusual. And by the way, Lisa, I think 99 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 2: I'm still flabbergasted that Doge has become the lightning rod 100 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 2: for the resistance or the opposition to Trump this time 101 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 2: around in light of the seemingly more politically controversial issues 102 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 2: that the various other executive orders have touched. 103 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 1: So you'd mentioned empowerment and we're worriedy hearing a lot 104 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: about it. We're going to be hearing a lot about 105 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: the Empowerment Control Act in nineteen seventy four law in 106 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: the coming or you know, throughout the Trump administration. Rather, 107 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: Trump believes that it's unconstitutional. You know, essentially for the audience, 108 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 1: Congress appropriates money, and what's in question about the Empowerment 109 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: Control Act is can the executive branch and the President say, 110 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: you know what, maybe I'm not going to give all 111 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: this money over here, or maybe use it for other purposes. 112 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: So that's sort of that issue. You'd be able to 113 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: explain that the legal angles of it, obviously more in 114 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: depth than I just did. Is it unconstitutional? You know 115 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: sort of what's your analysis of the Empowerment Control Act? 116 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 2: Well, the president is supposed to enforce the laws that 117 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 2: Congress passes. He's not supposed to create new law, but 118 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 2: he can interpret existing laws as presidents always do, to say, well, 119 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 2: you know this, this part is unconstitutional. I can't enforce 120 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 2: it that way, or we're going to interpret this in 121 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 2: light of this other statute, and then there are lawsuits 122 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 2: about whether he's right in that interpretation and things like that. 123 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 2: The Empowerment Act has been it was a it was 124 00:07:55,880 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 2: a post Water Game reform in the seventies and always 125 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 2: had some controversy about whether, you know, if the if 126 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 2: the president in his judgment doesn't want to spend certain 127 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 2: money that he can accomplish the goal that Congress laid 128 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 2: out in in in a particular federal program. You know, 129 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 2: why should he just spend money for no particular reason. Uh. 130 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 2: If if you know the congressional the legislation has been fulfilled, 131 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 2: but it's never been litigated. Uh that you know, we 132 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 2: could be set for that. Again, it's not it's not right, 133 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 2: as lawyers say, right now, because you can't you can't 134 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 2: challenge a pause or you shouldn't be able to because 135 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 2: that's not a final action. 136 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: Uh. 137 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 2: And the president does have until the end of the 138 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 2: fiscal year in September to spend the money that that 139 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 2: that Congress has appropriated. That's when an Empowerment Act challenge 140 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 2: if if he decides not to spend it all when 141 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 2: that could be had, and it's and it's an interesting 142 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 2: point you I guess of course, would be looking at, uh, 143 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 2: has the President fulfilled his duty under the take care clause? 144 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 2: The duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed? 145 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 2: You know? Does that mean he has to spend all 146 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 2: the money that Congress has appropriated if if the laws 147 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:20,959 Speaker 2: are being faithfully executed. So that's fleshing out a little 148 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: bit where where the debate might be if it comes 149 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 2: to it. 150 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: Now do you think this would make its way to 151 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court? I mean we're going to see you know, 152 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: probably a lot of lawsuits. You know, New York City 153 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: is feral a federal lawsuit against the Trump administration for 154 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,599 Speaker 1: eighty million dollars that they say FEMA funding should be 155 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: going to them, that is not going to them. You know, 156 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: does the city have standing in that? Like? Where do 157 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 1: you think this all? 158 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 2: That's a different sort of different there. Yeah. Eric Adams 159 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 2: the mayor, and we can get into his particular foibles 160 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 2: in a moment, but he is in alignment with the 161 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 2: Trump administration in that they're trying to stop or clawback 162 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 2: monies that were going to migrant asylum programs and housing 163 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 2: and things like that under the Biden administration and arguing 164 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 2: that this is an improper use of FEMA funds. And 165 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 2: I think they're probably right. They have a very strong 166 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 2: case about what natural disaster funds are supposed to be 167 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 2: going to. But that's a separate sort of issue. I think, 168 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 2: you know, would be recipients of contracts that all of 169 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 2: a sudden are rescinded may have some sort of right 170 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 2: if they have reliance costs. You know, they were assured 171 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 2: that they got this contract and so they went ahead 172 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 2: and built out some infrastructure, what have you, and then 173 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:49,319 Speaker 2: then that all got canceled. Potentially at least American recipients 174 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 2: might have some sort of standing there. We're not talking 175 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 2: about international development work. But beyond that, states have to 176 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 2: be harmed. As states. They can't be suing on behalf 177 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 2: of their of the on behalf of their citizens. Generally, 178 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 2: courts frowned on that. So if there are grants going 179 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 2: to states in some way that are now being stopped, 180 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 2: some states might want to sue over those. There are 181 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 2: separate lawsuits that certainly will put the federal and state 182 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 2: governments in against each other in court over sanctuary cities, 183 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 2: For example, whether state and local officials have to cooperate 184 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 2: and to what extent with ICE. They're not allowed to 185 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 2: interfere with ICE at least even if they're not required 186 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 2: to cooperate affirmatively. But what does interfere mean? So those 187 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,439 Speaker 2: sorts of suits are certainly headed our way. The Supreme 188 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:50,959 Speaker 2: Court inevitably every presidential term decides some conflicts about how 189 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 2: our challenges to how the executive branch implements the law. 190 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 2: I think the issue that's on the fact is tracked 191 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 2: to the Supreme Court is probably birthright citizenship. Not this term, 192 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 2: but I can imagine next term, So by the summer 193 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 2: of twenty twenty six, we'll have a ruling as to 194 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 2: whether the Trump administration's executive order that restricts citizenship only 195 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 2: to kids of citizens and permanent residents, whether that is lawful. 196 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 2: And here's a little preview of something that I've been 197 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 2: thinking in this vein. It could be that the media 198 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 2: and Justice, as Chief Justice Roberts and Brett Kavanaugh might say, well, 199 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 2: the Constitution isn't clear here and none of our precedents 200 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 2: provide a rule for decision, Which is true, But to 201 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 2: change so many decades of established practice it would require 202 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 2: an Act of Congress rather than a mere executive action. 203 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 2: That could be the middle way. They decide that we've got. 204 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 1: More with Ilia in just a moment of first after 205 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: more than a year of war, terror in pain in Israel. 206 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: All of Israel is brokenhearted after learning of the tragic 207 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: deaths of the Beva's children who were held hostage in Gaza, 208 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: and so many are still herding throughout the Holy Land, 209 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: where the need for aid continues to grow. The International 210 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: Fellowship of Christians and Jews has supported and continues to 211 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: support the families of hostages and other victims of the 212 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: October seventh terror attacks. With your help, IFCJ has provided 213 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: financial and emotional help to hostages in their families and 214 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: to those healing and rebuilding. They're broken homes and broken bodies, 215 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: but the real work is just beginning. Your gift will 216 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: help provide critically needed support to families in Israel whose 217 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,719 Speaker 1: lives continue to be destroyed by terror and uncertainty as 218 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 1: Israel remains surrounded by enemies. Give a gift to bless 219 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: Israel and her people by visiting SUPPORTIFCJ dot org. That's 220 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: one word, support IFCJ dot org or call eight eight 221 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,079 Speaker 1: eight for eight eight IFCJ. That's eight eight eight for 222 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:04,559 Speaker 1: eight IFCJ. Regarding the sanctuary cities, I guess who was 223 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: standing in that? You know, where does that go? You know, 224 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on that? 225 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 2: If the federal government tries to hold back or not award, say, 226 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 2: law enforcement funds, because state law enforcement isn't cooperating with ice, 227 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 2: there'll be the lawsuit over whether that restriction is germane, 228 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 2: whether it's constitutional. Have you already agreed to it? If 229 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 2: existing funds, existing contracts, or grants are in jeopardy, then 230 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 2: there's a question of whether that's the federal government commendeering 231 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 2: state officials. That is, under our constitution, federal authorities can't 232 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 2: tell state authorities what to do. They can't even tell 233 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 2: them to enforce federal law, but they the state authorities 234 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 2: can't interfere with federal enforcement of federal law. So, whether 235 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 2: that's with respect to marijuana, which is still illegal at 236 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 2: the federal level but legal in many many states, whether 237 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 2: it's with immigration enforcement, that's where the clash is. The 238 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 2: courts of Hell that states can have sanctuary policies, but 239 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 2: at what point does non cooperation become interference, you know, and. 240 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: Of course in a lawsuits over firing federal employees, there 241 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: are a lot of protections there in some instances, I 242 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: know President Trump has done things before, like you know 243 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: a Schedule F reclassifying federals. 244 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 2: Between them is yeah, there's a difference between civil servant 245 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 2: personnel changes where Schedule F comes in trying to designate 246 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 2: more people as political appointees or are having responsibility for 247 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 2: policy setting, in which case they have to be goes 248 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 2: the argument they have to be more accountable to the president, removable, replaceable, 249 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 2: et cetera. Whether certain civil service protections orublic sector union 250 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 2: contracts are unconstitutional because they hamstrung the executive and the 251 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 2: executive branch can't fulfill its duties and exercise its constitutional authority. 252 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 2: These are open questions. And then at the higher levels, 253 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 2: with say the head of the National Labor Relations Board 254 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 2: or the Federal Election Commission, all of these alphabet so 255 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 2: called independent agencies, removal authority over those Senate confirmed officials. 256 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 2: That is an issue that's definitely going to go to 257 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 2: the Supreme Court as well. The Acting Solicitor General of 258 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 2: the government's head lawyer before the Supreme Court has notified 259 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 2: the Senate, for example, that it will no longer be 260 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 2: defending the constitutionality or the removal protections for those officers, 261 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 2: and is questioning a ninety year old Supreme Court president 262 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 2: called Humphrey's Executor, which carved out from the normal rule 263 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 2: that the president can replace officers of the United States 264 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 2: because that's how constitutional accountability in the executive branch worked. 265 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 2: So that case, Humphrey's Executor said, well, certain officers exercise 266 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 2: sometimes quasi legislative, quasi judicial functions. So the Federal Trade 267 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 2: Commission adjudicates disputes of certain kinds or it promulgates regulations, 268 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,719 Speaker 2: which is kind of like a legislative function. That's why 269 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 2: its leaders have certain protections. The Court found in that case. 270 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 2: I think the Humphrey's Executor is right for reconsideration, and 271 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 2: I think a majority of the current membership of the 272 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,959 Speaker 2: Supreme Court is likely to side with the Trump administration 273 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 2: in enforcing more accountability. You can see that from a 274 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 2: handful of cases that have been decided in the last 275 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 2: ten to fifteen years. 276 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I do think the one, well, one big 277 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: benefit of President Trump is we've all learned a lot 278 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: more about how government works. It's all got a lot 279 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: more attention than it has in you know, administrations prior. 280 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: When it comes to reforming government. We're certainly seeing a 281 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 1: more muscular government from President Trump than you know, maybe 282 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: some Republicans in the past. When it comes to reforming government, 283 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 1: what can President Trump do on his own, you know, latterly, 284 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 1: and then what does he need Congress to do? 285 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 2: The executive can't close the Department of Education, say or USAID. 286 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 2: They were created by Congress. It would take an Act 287 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 2: of Congress to shut them down. The executive could reorganize 288 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 2: certain functions like it could say, okay, the Office of 289 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 2: Civil Rights at Education, that's duplicative of what the Justice 290 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 2: Department is or should be doing. So we'll move all 291 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 2: of those functions into DOJ student loan administration. That's not 292 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:08,679 Speaker 2: an educational function, that's a you know, economic financial piece. 293 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 2: What We're going to send that to the Treasury Department 294 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 2: to operate things like that, or you know, certain we're 295 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 2: going to cancel certain kinds of contracts that violate that 296 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 2: that implement DEI because we consider de I to be unconstitutional, 297 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 2: violation of civil rights, equal protection, things like that. But 298 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 2: it can't shut the entire structure down and just send 299 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 2: the funds back as block grants to the states. That 300 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 2: would take an Act of Congress. 301 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 1: But could you roll us AID into the State Department, 302 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: for instance. 303 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 2: I think most of its functions could be yes, And 304 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 2: I think that's what they're trying to do. 305 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: And would that be constitutional? Then? 306 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:49,199 Speaker 2: I think so? 307 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 1: I think. 308 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 2: So, you know, there's very you know, Congress created the 309 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 2: agency and it specified certain things. So I haven't looked 310 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 2: at USA I d's organic statute, but you know, whatever 311 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 2: Congress specified has to be has to be done. And 312 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 2: and back to the Empownment Act, what you know what 313 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 2: what money it appropriated to implement certain programs. That money, 314 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 2: you know, if you take those functions into the State Department, 315 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 2: that money would go there and then have to be 316 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 2: spent or again you have this fight over whether the 317 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 2: UH the UH the law is being executed more cheaply 318 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 2: or what have you. So it's you know, there's there's 319 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 2: certainly a great area. It's sometimes it's hard to draw 320 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 2: the line between reorganization within the executive branch and dissolving 321 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 2: or or disabling UH an agency that that Congress created 322 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 2: and wants to exist. But that's the general outline. 323 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I know the Clinton administration also considered doing 324 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,159 Speaker 1: that as well, rolling USA Idea into State Department. I 325 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 1: want to get to your book because that's really interesting 326 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 1: as well. Your book, Lawless, The Miseducation of America's Elite. 327 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: You talk about how in the past, you know, Columbia 328 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: Law School, for instance, produced leaders like Franklin Roosevelt or 329 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 1: Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Now it produces windows smashing activists. How 330 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 1: did that happen? Yeah? How did that happen? 331 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 2: Yeah? So the book's called Lawless, The Miseducation of America's Elites. 332 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 2: It came out about a month ago, just over a 333 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 2: month ago, from HarperCollins Broadside Imprint, and it builds on 334 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 2: my so called lived experience at Georgetown Law three years 335 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:36,159 Speaker 2: ago where I was investigated for a tweet and kind. 336 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: Of a tweet no less a tweet, yeah, a tweet, yeah, tweet. 337 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 2: Yeah. I got to see the kind of the dirty 338 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 2: underbelly of the failures of ideology, bureaucracy, and leadership to wit. 339 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 2: When I was in law school twenty years ago. You know, 340 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 2: we had debates between liberals and conservas, left and right, originalism, 341 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 2: living constitutionalism, what have you. But we took the law 342 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 2: or the legitimacy of American institutions as a given. Now, 343 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 2: there were these theories that considered legal institutions to be 344 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 2: illegitimate because hopelessly imbued with racism, sexism, you know, heteronormativity, 345 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 2: all of these different things. They have to be torn 346 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 2: down and rebuilt according to a different privileged hierarchy. Your 347 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 2: rights and freedoms depend on whether you're part of a 348 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 2: class deemed oppressor or oppressed, et cetera. Critical theory, critical 349 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 2: legal studies. We had thought that that was something from 350 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 2: the eighties and early nineties that had been relegated to 351 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 2: some you know, dusty corner of a philosophy or sociology 352 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 2: department or something. But the crits came roaring back in 353 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 2: the last in the last decade, and there's a lot 354 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 2: of that kind of undermining of respect for the rule 355 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 2: of law taught by law schools themselves, which is a 356 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,880 Speaker 2: a big problem. Then you have the bureaucracy, which might 357 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 2: even be a bigger problem than the shift from in 358 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 2: the faculty, from education to that kind of activism that 359 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 2: I described. And it's remarkable how much non teaching staff 360 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 2: or administrators have grown relative to faculty, relative to student bodies. 361 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 2: All schools now have more non teaching staff than faculty, 362 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 2: and you know, that's part of why tuition is skyrocketed. 363 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 2: It's also part of why we've had, especially in the 364 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 2: last decade, especially in the last five years, the growth 365 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:44,959 Speaker 2: of DEI because bureaucrats incentive always, whether in the public sector, 366 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 2: private sector, nonprofit, what have you, is to justify and 367 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 2: grow their authority and budget. So once you started having 368 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 2: these offices that were looking to inculcate students in a 369 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 2: culture of viewing issues through lenses of race and sex 370 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 2: and identity and what have you, they needed to manufacture 371 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 2: outrage and have things to investigate and adjudicate and and punish, 372 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 2: and and away we went. Uh So, so oftentimes, the 373 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 2: the bureaucracy, and especially now the DEI bureaucracy, is the 374 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 2: tail that wags the dog of the of the whole 375 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,959 Speaker 2: educational project. Because this gets to the third major failure. 376 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 2: Uh Deans and presidents and provosts are not themselves woke radicals, 377 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 2: but they're spinalless cowards, and they counts how toward this 378 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 2: illiberal mob, whether coming from the students buttressed by the 379 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 2: the structures and dynamics put in place by the by 380 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 2: the non teaching staff, the bureaucrats. Uh and uh, you 381 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 2: know their careers, bureaucrats, and they're trying to climb the 382 00:24:55,680 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 2: greasy pool. And uh they they faci illitate the takeover, 383 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 2: this illiberal takeover. And I want to be clear, and 384 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 2: I'll end with this and let you ask the next 385 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 2: thing that this is not just the latest conservative lament 386 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 2: about decades of faculty bias or the hippies taking over 387 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 2: the faculty lounge. In fact, those hippies, the Berkeley free 388 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 2: speech movement of the nineteen sixties, would now be considered 389 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 2: retrograde white supremacists by these woke radicals. So all of 390 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 2: these failures combined is what's led to a very unhealthy 391 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 2: culture in higher education generally in law schools specifically. And 392 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 2: I focus on law schools not just because I'm a lawyer, 393 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 2: but because regardless of what happens in English or sociology departments, 394 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 2: that's unfortunate when they go crazy. Law schools graduate our 395 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 2: next generation of gatekeepers of our political and legal institutions. 396 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 2: Literally the foundations on which American prosperity and liberty rests 397 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 2: if that goes all a kilter. 398 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: Well, and we've already seen how some of that has 399 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: played out with you know, some of the what Trump 400 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,479 Speaker 1: was facing in the courts, particularly in d C. And 401 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 1: in Georgia, and also you know what a lot of 402 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 1: these January six ers faced and sort of the unfair 403 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: treatment that they received in the courts as well. So, 404 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: I mean, it is carried that these are the people 405 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,400 Speaker 1: that are going to be shaping the law for you know, 406 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,880 Speaker 1: for you know, years and years and years to come, 407 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 1: decades to come. So what was the tweet that was 408 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,360 Speaker 1: subject to this four month investigation. 409 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 2: So I had been at CATO, the Cato Institute for 410 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 2: nearly fifteen years and got an opportunity to take my 411 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 2: career in a different direction to become the executive director 412 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 2: of Georgetown Center for the Constitution. And the few days 413 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 2: before I was due to start that job was when 414 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 2: Justice Bryer's retirement announcement came. And so I was doing 415 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 2: a lot of media that day in January of twenty 416 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,959 Speaker 2: twenty two because my previous book, Supreme Disorder, Judicial Nominations 417 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 2: in the Politics of America's highest Court was right on point, 418 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 2: and I was getting more and more upset with Joe Biden, 419 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 2: huewing to his campaign promise from twenty twenty to appoint 420 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 2: a black woman to the Supreme Court. Nothing wrong with 421 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 2: appointing a black woman, of course, but I wouldn't restrict 422 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 2: my candidate pool, whether for janitor, let alone justice by 423 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 2: race and sex. And so I late at night after 424 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,360 Speaker 2: doom scrolling Twitter. Not a best practice I've done, offered up. 425 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 2: I offered up the hot take that if I were Biden, 426 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 2: or if I were a Democratic president, I would pick 427 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 2: the chief Judge of the d C Circuit, the second 428 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,159 Speaker 2: most powerful court in the land, a man by the 429 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 2: name of Sri Srinovasan happens to also be an Indian 430 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 2: American immigrant. So check some demographic boxes, but alas not 431 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,880 Speaker 2: the right ones under what I called today's privileged hierarchy 432 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 2: or hierarchy of intersectionality. And so, given Twitter's character limitation, 433 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,959 Speaker 2: I said, if Biden maintains his promise, we will end 434 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 2: up with a quote lesser black woman. And it's those 435 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 2: three words, in artfully phrased, I clearly met less qualified 436 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 2: than the candidate that I was proposing as the best 437 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 2: pick that got me in trouble over, I hit send 438 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 2: on that went to bed, and overnight my ideological enemies 439 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 2: went for my head, and that led to what I 440 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 2: call four days of hell, as it wasn't clear whether 441 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 2: i'd be fired right there, then four months of purgatory 442 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 2: as I was onboarded but immediately suspended pending investigation into 443 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 2: whether I violated harassment and anti discrimination policies. And the 444 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 2: longer that so called investigation went, the more it seemed 445 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 2: like it was a farce. And when I finally was 446 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 2: reinstated on the technicality that I wasn't yet an employee 447 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 2: when I tweeted, so the policies didn't apply. This little 448 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 2: jurisdictional knit that some high powered lawyer found once the 449 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 2: students were off campus so they couldn't protest. But then 450 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,479 Speaker 2: I got the fine print, this report from the Office 451 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 2: of Institutional Equity Diversity an affirmative action idea, and that 452 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 2: made clear that the next time that I offended someone 453 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 2: or otherwise transgressed progressive orthodoxy, I'd be creating a hostile 454 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 2: educational environment. And I realized I could not do the 455 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 2: job I was hired to do, so I had to quit, 456 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 2: and I did what lawyers call a noisy exit, publishing 457 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 2: my resignation letter in the Wall Street Journal, as one does, 458 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 2: and then announcing my move to the Manhattan Institute on 459 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 2: Fox News, and away we went after that. And I've 460 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 2: been trying to use this platform that I've been given 461 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 2: to shine a light on the rock in academia. 462 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: Well, I respect the noisy exit in that in that Redguard. 463 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: You know, we're saying, d I die. To a certain degree, 464 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: we've seen a lot of companies jump ship in recent months, 465 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: you know, particularly after President Trump's reelection as well as 466 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: the actions that he has taken with his administration. Are 467 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: we seeing that on some of these campuses? And you 468 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: know what do you think that impact will be at 469 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: you know, higher education and at some of these universities 470 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: across the country. 471 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 2: In society more broadly, I'm optimistic. There's definitely been uh 472 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 2: you know what people call it, talk about a vibe 473 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 2: shift which was instantiated in the November election, But just 474 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 2: more broadly, whether in private enterprise and the culture, it 475 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 2: feels like a like a fever has broken in academia. 476 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 2: I'm not quite sure that the jury is still out. 477 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 2: There's not quite the same feedback mechanism. There isn't a 478 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 2: critical mass to push back on the excesses of this 479 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 2: let wing illiberalism. And there are so many vested stakeholders. 480 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 2: You know, the National Association of Higher Education Diversity Officers, 481 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 2: if you can believe that's an organization, has ten thousand members. 482 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 2: They're not going to be like, Okay, well, I guess 483 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 2: I'll learn to code now. You know, they're gonna they're 484 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 2: gonna resist. And and just like Brown v. Board didn't 485 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 2: overnight mean desegregation in the Jim Crow South, there is 486 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 2: massive resistance both to the Supreme Court's order not to 487 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 2: use racial preferences in admissions and to Trump's dei orders. 488 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 2: We'll see if the Education and Justice departments keep their 489 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 2: foot on the gas in these investigations, threatening to withhold 490 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 2: federal funding, research funding, and otherwise from recalcistron schools. There's 491 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 2: there's quite a battle that that's being set up. So 492 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 2: it's uh, you know, I'm I'm less pessimistic than than 493 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 2: I was when I left Georgetown nearly three years ago, 494 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 2: but the battle's been Joineday. 495 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: What can can the Trump administration do anything to address 496 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: this miseducation? 497 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 2: You know, they're trying. They're trying, I mean they're there. 498 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: We would you get into those. 499 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 2: Existing that there are existing strings on federal funds, which 500 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 2: is why the Education Department two weeks ago launch investigations 501 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 2: of half a dozen schools for anti semitism and free 502 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 2: speech violations and all these things like that. So yeah, 503 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 2: if you take federal money, there's there's strings attached to 504 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 2: everything from accounting standards to non discrimination rules to free 505 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 2: speech protections. And so hopefully something comes of it, because 506 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 2: the by administration was kind of shamed into opening some 507 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 2: investigations after October seventh, but then they quickly closed them 508 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,240 Speaker 2: with less than a slap on the wrist at the 509 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 2: end of the of the Biden tern So hopefully there 510 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 2: is going to be teeth, investigatory oversight, teeth for these 511 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 2: executive actions. But of course you live by the executive action, 512 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 2: you died by the executive action, and hopefully some of 513 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 2: this will get codified as legislation. 514 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: We've got to take a quick commercial break. More with 515 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: Ilia on the other side, Well, we also saw, you know, 516 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: alumni of some of these universities, particularly when we saw 517 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: the anti semitism happening across the country. You know, say hey, look, 518 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 1: you're not going to give you x amount. You know, 519 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 1: like these really really rich people being like, oh, we're 520 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: going to withhold funds, and so that led to you know, 521 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: some turnover with these university presidents. Is that sort of 522 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: you know, another plan of action that you know, people 523 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: should start taking more and kind of threatening their own 524 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: personal funding of some of these universities. Oh. 525 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 2: Absolutely, Look, it's going to take in all of the 526 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 2: above push State legislators and governors can and are in 527 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 2: some cases acting to abolished de I bureaucracies, get rid 528 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 2: of diversity statement litmus tests for hiring, other kinds of 529 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 2: preferences for admissions. It's going to take private employers to 530 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 2: say that, look, we can't hire from your school because 531 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 2: there's no guarantee of quality there, and the kids show 532 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 2: up entitled, and you know, we don't want to deal 533 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 2: with that, let alone being a Hamas supporter or yelling 534 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 2: at federal judges we hope your daughters get raped and 535 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 2: things like this that has happened in the last few years. 536 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:52,399 Speaker 2: It takes donors and trustees and alumni and universities, even 537 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 2: rich ones like Harvard with a sixty billion dollar endowment notices. 538 00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:01,720 Speaker 2: When there's a five percent decline either in overall amount 539 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 2: of giving or in the rate of giving the percentage 540 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 2: of alumni that donate, that's a that's a warning bell 541 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 2: for them. And so it's not you don't have to 542 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 2: be a multi millionaire donor to get the attention of 543 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,359 Speaker 2: your alma mater. You know, get together with a bunch 544 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 2: of friends. Then there's there's free speech coalitions. There's all 545 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 2: sorts of kind of alumni groups that are have been 546 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 2: created in various schools, especially at the so called elite 547 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,320 Speaker 2: ones where these sorts of problems are the most acute, 548 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,439 Speaker 2: and so you can you can have an impact that way. 549 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 2: And alternate institutions. The University of Austin, for example, just 550 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 2: opened its doors to students this year, the first cohort 551 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 2: of I think ninety freshmen. I spoke there about a 552 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 2: month ago. It's a great example of a kind of 553 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 2: parallel institution. Some centers and institutes are being created within 554 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:58,760 Speaker 2: existing schools. Arizona State unc University of Florida, Florida State. 555 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 2: Lots of different schools now have centers for excellence or 556 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 2: Civics or classics. All of these kinds of teachings that's 557 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 2: supposed to be the liberal arts mission of the broader university, 558 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:16,280 Speaker 2: but has been forced into these college within a college 559 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,280 Speaker 2: sort of thing. So yeah, we're in a time of flux, 560 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 2: and some institutions, no doubt, will fail or lose influence 561 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,760 Speaker 2: and even more public confidence. Some might be might be righted. 562 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: And we've seen judges too, you know, say, hey, look 563 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 1: like Judge James Hoe saying I'm not going to hire 564 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: you know, law students from Yale due to some of 565 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,839 Speaker 1: this woke stuff. And you know, some judges stepping up 566 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: and kind of. 567 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 2: And that's gotten Yale's attention. The dean there recognizes that 568 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 2: Yale has gotten some black eyes, and purely out of 569 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 2: personal self interest, because she, Heather Durkin, wants to be 570 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 2: the president of an Ivy League school at some point, 571 00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 2: and she realizes that if her reign, her tenure at 572 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 2: Yale Law is seen as dysfunctional, that's not going to happen. 573 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 2: So yes, she's the boycott the publicity from these various scandals. 574 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 2: She's reassigned bureaucrats. She's hired a senior professor, Keith Whittington, 575 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 2: from Princeton and given him a bunch of money to 576 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 2: do civil discourse stuff. Hired a junior professor who had 577 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,760 Speaker 2: clerked for Alito. So some of you know, more savvy 578 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 2: educational leaders I think can get the message from a 579 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:35,720 Speaker 2: combination of alumni giving bad publicity. Yeah, judicial employer pressure, 580 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:36,720 Speaker 2: all these different things. 581 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: Is there anything else you'd like to get across about 582 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 1: the book? 583 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,880 Speaker 2: Before we go? I published for the first time anywhere 584 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,480 Speaker 2: that report that I got from Georgetown's DEI office. And 585 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 2: it's funny the publisher, my publisher, you know, you go 586 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 2: through a legal review, of course, and they had no 587 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,959 Speaker 2: problem with you know, the choice words that I had 588 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 2: for Georgetown and dean and administrators and what have you. 589 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 2: But they said, look, that report technically Georgetown might have 590 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 2: a copyright on it, and so we need to transform 591 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,399 Speaker 2: the work from an intellectual property perspective. So they had 592 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 2: me put in some snide comments every couple of paragraphs. 593 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,920 Speaker 2: So anyway, I'll leave that to your listeners to uh 594 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 2: to buy it on Kindle or audible or have the 595 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 2: hardcover book itself. 596 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 1: That's a good tease, always going to leave everyone with 597 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: the teas. Elias Shapiro, really appreciate your time. Really interesting conversation. 598 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: I appreciate it so much, so thank you, thank you. 599 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 2: And you know, Lisa, this this administration that Trump too, 600 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 2: is so much better lawyered than the last one was 601 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,360 Speaker 2: so all of these things and you know, the shock 602 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 2: in awe and they really used their their transition time well, 603 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 2: and the lawyers are ready. So I think most of 604 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 2: this stuff that you know, it's hard to separate the 605 00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 2: wheat from the chaff sometimes, but most of this stuff 606 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,240 Speaker 2: I think we'll get upheld in court. 607 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 1: Well, I'm actually glad you mentioned that because that is 608 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:07,920 Speaker 1: one of the questions I was going to ask you 609 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,400 Speaker 1: that I forgot too. So you're helping me cover all 610 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: the ground that I wanted to cover. So I wanted 611 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 1: to ask you about how his legal team is doing. 612 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:17,799 Speaker 1: So I'm glad you got that in there. Thank you 613 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: so much. I really appreciate it. My pleasure was to 614 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,399 Speaker 1: take care Itzilias Shapiro. Appreciate him for taking the time. 615 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,240 Speaker 1: Appreciate you guys at home for listening every Tuesday and Thursday, 616 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 1: but of course you can listen throughout the week until 617 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:28,879 Speaker 1: next time.