WEBVTT - Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - September 13th, 2024 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:05.720 This is Bloomberg business Week inside from the reporters and 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:09.480 editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:13.680 global business, finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:18.840 Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:22.520 Hi, everyone, Welcome to the Bloomberg Business Week Weekend Podcast. 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:26.320 Well another packed week, the first and maybe only debate 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:29.520 between Vice President Kamala Harris and former President Donald Trump. 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:31.920 We also got an uptick in jobless claims and two 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:35.440 reads on US inflation supporting a quarter point cut. As 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:38.879 we count down to this coming week's FED meeting, we 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:41.320 are certainly setting up for a busy September and Fall, 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:44.479 a theme this past week as the campaign's sprint to 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:49.160 the finish leadership. On that, a couple of conversations about leadership, 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:53.440 including one this hour with the former CEO of Dow Chemical, plus. 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:57.880 The next new iPhone super cycle or a Bit of 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:00.360 a Miss, and the Bloomberg Bag take on our world's 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:03.320 largest market cap company. Yeah, we're still talking about Apple, 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:05.480 how it came to rule the world. 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:07.320 All of that to come, and we begin with a 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:10.800 look toward the November presidental election. On Tuesday night, Donald 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:14.200 Trump and Kamala Harris sparred through their first debate. The 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:18.600 former president and current vice president traded barb's over abortion rights, 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:22.800 foreign policy January sixth, and of course the economy. Although 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:24.679 I got to say, Tim, I think while it was 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:26.920 touched upon, a lot of people think there was not 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:29.800 enough information about it, especially when it comes to specific policies. 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:32.639 What do you think, based on other debates in recent years, 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:36.320 doesn't surprise me at all? Yeah, these have never, at 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:39.160 least in recent memory, been filled with lots of policy. 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:41.959 But I think that's what a lot of voters want 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:45.319 to see. I mean, especially from Harris, who they don't 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:48.040 know as well according to polls, as they know Trump. 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:48.360 Yeah. 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:50.760 I do feel like debates have become especially for Harris, 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:53.440 who's playing catchup in a big way right about who 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:55.960 I am as a leader, where I stand on policies. 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:59.080 Is she just Biden two point zero? I mean there's 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:00.160 a lot of questions out there. 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:02.400 I think that's why you still have folks out there 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:04.040 saying she's got to do more interviews. 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:06.280 Yeah, exactly, So we'll see that if that comes. We'll 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:07.960 also see if we get more debates. There's been a 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:09.959 lot of back and forth about whether or not. We'll 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:11.079 certainly see that well. 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:13.280 For more on the campaigns in the aftermath of the debate, 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:15.960 we turned to Stefan sea League. He worked in leadership 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:18.240 roles in both the private and public sectors, including a 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:22.000 nearly thirty year career on Wall Street. He's former Undersecretary 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:24.480 of Commerce for International Trade at the US Department of 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:29.160 Commerce during the Obama administration, also headed the International Trade Administration. 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:32.919 Stefan also menaging partner and founder of Bridge Park Advisors. 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:36.240 Last time he was on with US, said that President 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:38.520 Biden would step down from the race. So, first of all, 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:42.239 congratulations and will you buy me a lottery ticket? Why 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:45.160 did you think that so much? Because he had no choice, 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:48.240 remind us? And why you were thinking about that because 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:49.560 it was before he did it obviously. 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:49.799 Yeah. 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:52.480 I mean, if you recall, Carol, this was right after 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:56.320 the former president was shot, and I thought that, you know, 0:02:56.720 --> 0:03:00.600 that opportunity for him to look so presidential was going 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:04.560 to give him a real bump, and I thought it 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:08.640 was going to force President Biden's hand. And fundamentally, what 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:11.200 I told you is when I believe that when he 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:15.679 was convinced and his closest advisors and confidence was were 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:17.760 convinced that he was going to lose. He was going 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:19.800 to do the right thing and be a patriot and 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:21.920 do the right thing for the country and for the party, 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:25.000 and that's ended up being that's what he did. 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:27.960 So your thoughts on last night and what the race 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:31.560 is now? Did we get enough when it comes to 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:34.160 economics and policy and things that Americans care about? 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:37.080 You know, I was actually surprised about how little of 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:40.680 the debate actually covered economic topics. Where you look at 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:44.120 all of the polling, it says economic issues are the 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:48.119 most important things that are going to drive undecided voters 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:52.840 votes in the election. One is the economy, and to 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:57.120 his inflation, I'm not sure not part of the economy. 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:00.280 But I think we got, you know, far less of 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:03.760 a real substance of dialogue on those topics, and I 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:06.040 would have hoped and expected. And I also thought that, 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:08.920 you know, there was really very peripheral conversation around China, 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:12.560 which I also might have expected given the important issues 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:15.520 that our country faces with its greatest competitor. 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:19.119 We did get some conversation on tariffs, and Donald Trump 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:21.719 did push back on what we heard from Kamala Harris 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:25.000 by saying that the Biden administration did leave intact some 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:28.520 of the tariffs that the Trump administration had put on China. 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:31.760 What are your thoughts around those types of protectionist trade policies. 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:35.280 You know, it's interesting, Tim, Actually both parties are really 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:40.359 largely aligned on tariffs and trade. Actually, there are, of 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:44.680 course some nuances. Foreign President Trump is doubling down on 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:49.360 his reasonably aggressive, you know, trade stance. What he said 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:52.719 at least was he would implement tariffs of ten to 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:55.080 twenty percent across the board and sixty percent of goods 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:58.159 coming in from China with a broad brush. I don't 0:04:58.200 --> 0:04:59.880 think that's particularly effective. 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:00.600 You know. 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:06.680 To be sure, tariffs have a important place to protect industry, 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:10.880 US industry, where those industries are critical to our national 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:13.760 security interests. But when you do it on a broad 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:17.520 brushed basis, at least, it's my view that the light's 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:21.440 not worth the candle because clearly it's inflationary. I think 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:24.080 it actually costs you more jobs than it saves you, 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:27.080 and costs get passed on to the consumer. And frankly, 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:29.440 there are a lot of industries where we are just 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:32.479 not competing effectively on a global basis, and as a result, 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:36.640 taxing those goods coming in is just you know, bad 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:38.239 for US consumers and is inflation. 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:40.120 So it's not apples to apples in terms of what 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:44.640 Donald Trump is proposing now stuff in terms of more 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:46.960 Chinese goods that are coming in versus what we've seen 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:50.080 during the Trump administration what continued into the Biden administration, 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:53.400 specifically on high tech and chips in particular, So it's 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:54.360 not the same thing. 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:57.279 Well, the tariffs, I mean, let's separate. One of the 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:02.440 things that Biden administration did was export controls as it 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:05.719 relates to chips and critical technology, but specifically as it 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:09.880 relates to tariffs. You know, this started with steel production 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:18.599 and the issue around state owned enterprises in China, which 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:22.320 controls steel production and now are by far the leading 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:25.239 producer of steel around the world and have flooded the market. 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:30.120 The fact is President Trump put on tariffs for imported 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:33.720 steel from China. The fact is the Biden administration kept 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:37.679 those tariffs. But the fact is China's behavior has not changed. 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:41.320 And so the question always should become in these circumstances, 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:44.960 was it effective and at least so far in changing 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:48.280 Chinese behavior as it relates to steel, it hasn't been 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:50.600 effective and in fact it's gotten in many ways worse 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:53.560 because the Chinese economy has slowed and as a result, 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:57.520 their domestic consumption of steel has gone down. And what's 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:00.000 happened to all that steel that continues to be produce. 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:06.320 It's being sent overseas, driving down prices and creating, you know, 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:11.280 real global instability in that steel in the steel market. 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:14.600 You did mention the economy and inflation, two things that 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:16.600 we know things to pull after poller on the top 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:19.160 of mind for voters. We learned a little bit more 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:22.240 about Kamala Harris, but still, since she's relatively new as 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:24.440 a candidate and it doesn't have a full policy position 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:27.559 out there, we don't know everything about how she feels 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:29.360 about this stuff. Some of her other policies that she's 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:32.600 unveiled in recent weeks include not no taxing tips she's 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:36.120 come out with that first time home buyers getting some 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:39.880 sort of home buying credit, expansion of the child tax credit, 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:44.920 supporting small businesses we learned in recent weeks with tax 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:45.520 cuts there. 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:47.600 But let's go through a couple of those tips. 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:49.360 I want to talk specifically about the home. 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:52.440 The home buying the home buying one to me is interesting, 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:55.720 and you didn't mention, obviously the whole price gouging price 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:58.800 issue that she raised, because you know, to me, these 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:04.280 both reflect a fundamental misunderstanding of reasonably simple economics, right, 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:07.440 which is, if you give somebody twenty five thousand dollars 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.640 to go buy a first home, and there is frankly 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:14.600 a not a demand issue, but a supply issue. Let 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:18.040 me tell you what's going to happen That curve goes 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:20.760 up and houses are going to cost twenty five thousand 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:21.240 dollars more. 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:22.280 Basic economics. 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:24.560 Basic economics. So I just don't see. 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:27.240 How that works and does what she wants to do, 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:32.840 which is to actually assist new home buyers in affording 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:34.640 their first terms. What it's going to do is just 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:40.719 increase the prices of homes. And so to me, this 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:44.320 is very similar with the whole price gouging issue which 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:47.880 you talked about in groceries and in food retail. As 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:51.000 we all know, when you don't let the market set prices, 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:55.040 let that leads to inefficiencies and in this particular case, 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:59.560 would lead to shortages in certain goods. You know, again 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:02.440 a supply and demand as Carol suggested it sets prices, 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:06.599 and when government artificially sets prices, you lose the signaling 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:10.960 impact of what supply and demand leads to, and as 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:13.840 a result, you get market inefficiencies, which is going to 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:16.360 be bad ultimately for consumers because when they go by 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:18.240 macaroni and cheese it it's not going to be on 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:20.480 the shelf because companies aren't going to be able to 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:23.120 make enough money. I would also observe that it's not 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:27.600 like the food retailing industry is such a profitable business. 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:30.840 I mean, at the height of the pandemic, the best 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:34.840 grossers were making what five ish percent margins and so 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:37.040 as a result of that, the notion that they're price 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:39.319 gouging is a little bit of a head scratcher. 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:42.360 One thing that's stuck with me, or stayed with me 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:46.320 from our last conversation is, you know, the stock market 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:49.560 isn't Main Street, right, and so there are a lot 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:52.320 of Americans that are struggling. So I'm trying to understand 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:55.520 because you know, this race is a close one no 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:57.360 matter what, and these are two people who stand for 0:09:57.480 --> 0:10:00.880 very different things and a very different candidate. Why is 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:03.560 it in such a rich country and in a market 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:06.480 where companies seem to get richer and richer that we're 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:09.480 not able to pass that wealth on to more workers. 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:12.120 I know wages are starting to go up, but how 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:13.480 do we fix that? 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:17.480 Well, look, I mean they're that's a big one. That 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:19.559 that is a big one, and it's you know, it 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:24.439 relates at least in my view, to education to opportunity, 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:29.840 which you know, which touches a whole host of policies. 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.800 But I think very narrowly as it relates to what 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:36.600 is causing the dissatisfaction with the economy today, it is 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:40.320 because prices are elevated, and prices are elevated because of 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:43.560 what happened in COVID and what's happened after where both 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:47.559 administrations frankly, you know, have a lot to answer for 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:51.040 because of the increase in the deficits, in the deficit 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:55.840 that both parties policies caused, and until they tackle that, 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:58.680 I think the conversation about the stock market is high, 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:02.800 interest rates are low, inflation is under control. Is fine, 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:08.040 But as your last guess or commentator suggested, inflation is interesting, 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:10.720 but it's a point measure. It has nothing to do 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:11.640 with prices. 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:14.679 Prices are hot, right, right, and then come down with 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:15.120 I think. 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:17.560 The problem is Americans, who most of whom have not 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:21.120 experienced inflation, don't understand that about inflation. They think of 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:22.760 inflation as what they pay at the gas pump, and 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:25.520 they see those prices fluctuate. So they do see gas 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:27.480 prices come down, and maybe that's what they expect. 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:29.800 Other times, gas prices are now at three or low. 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:34.720 Former President Trump is very fixated on oil and gas 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:37.360 and gas prices because he thinks there's a direct linkage 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:41.440 between gas and prices in inflation. I don't get that 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:44.640 economics either. In fact, you know, there is no more 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:47.960 of a global commodity than you know, oil and gas, 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:51.280 and those prices are not set narrowly based on US production. 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:55.080 And so I think that's another example of especially given 0:11:55.120 --> 0:12:00.120 the importance of energy in Pennsylvania, another example of a 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:03.680 pain rhetoric as opposed to you know, real economics and 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:04.200 real math. 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:07.439 Every time we wrap up with you, I'm like, wait, 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.520 I have a million more questions, so you have to 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:11.080 come back again. 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:12.880 Always happy to join. 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:15.440 You guys, So we so much appreciate it. I'm Stefan Sealik, 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:17.720 thank you so much, Managing partner over at Bridge Park Advisors, 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:20.400 as we say, former Undersecretary of Commerce for International Trade 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:22.079 at the US Department of Commerce that was during the 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:25.600 Obama administration, but really looks at things from, as we say, 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:27.760 the public and private sectors. All right, folks, you are 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:29.440 listening and watching Bloomberg Business Week. 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:38.600 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:41.840 each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple car Play, 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:44.760 and Androyd Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:48.040 also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:51.760 York station Just say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:56.320 Apple on Monday unveil the latest version of its flagship device, 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:59.520 the iPhone sixteen, along with updated versions of its Apple 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:03.040 Watch and AirPods. The company is betting it can entice 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:07.040 consumers with modest hardware upgrades and AI technology that's still 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:07.720 on the horizon. 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:10.240 It's a gambit for the tech Titan, which has been 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:13.400 racing to develop a suite of tools called Apple Intelligence. 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:16.280 Though Apple has been touting the tech since it's developers 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:18.840 conference back in June, the software will not be included 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:21.400 in the initial versions of the new iPhones, perhaps not 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:23.600 great for investors who hope that the new iPhone infused 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.840 with AI capabilities would lead to a so called super cycle. 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:29.880 For more, Katie Greifeld and I spoke to our Apple expert, 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:32.840 Bloomberg News Chief technology correspondent Mark German. 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:35.560 I don't think that this is an upgrade design to 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:38.640 gather people from a fifteen pro Promax. I think this 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:41.640 is an update designed to get people on much older hardware. 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:45.160 Are people in other smartphone ecosystems like Android right, because 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:48.240 the ear of your hardware improvements are essentially negligible. It's 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:51.360 one of the smallest I think annual hardware improvements that 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:55.360 I've seen from Apple in a long time. Maybe a 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:57.640 little bit more significant than going from the twelve to 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:00.640 the thirteen. But yeah, this is pretty bleak. And then 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.840 the artificial intelligence stuff is really cool, but that's not 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:05.600 coming for quite a while, and it's going to be 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:08.520 pretty much a phased rollout. So I think we're going 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:11.520 for they're going for people that are coming from older phones. 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:14.480 Well, yeah, that's that's interesting because I feel like at 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:17.200 this point, like you KT and me, Yeah, but because 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:19.480 when you think about, you know, switching from Android to Apple, 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.520 I feel like Mark, there's like this cult of personality 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:26.120 that has developed among each phones. I mean, if you 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:28.200 have an Android in the year of Our Lord twenty 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:31.120 twenty four, are you going to switch to an iPhone? 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:33.080 I mean that seems like that would sort of go 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:34.720 against what you believe in at this point. 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:37.120 Well, if your friends and family force you to because 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:38.840 they're tired of you not being able to be in 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:41.160 the group chat because you're a green bubble versus their 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:43.800 bloom bubbles, right, you know a lot of times it's 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.800 friends and family pushing people to make that switch. So 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:48.880 you know, you want your photos to be and sync 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:50.680 with everyone else, you want your subscriptions to be in 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.240 sync with everyone else. So I think that's a component there. 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:54.680 I mean, there's some people who are never going to 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:56.160 switch from Android, and there's a lot of people who 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:58.760 are never going to switch from Apple to Android. But 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:01.000 I think that they're constantly pushing the needle in terms 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:03.240 of how they can bring more people from the Android ecosystem. 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:07.560 They've made iOS far more customizable to be more like Android. 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:10.120 You can now tint your icons to different colors, put 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:12.960 your icons anywhere, you don't have to fit within that 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:16.080 homescreen grid, there's a lot more customizability for the lock 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:19.160 screen and control center. So I certainly think that there 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:21.600 is a movement going on from Apple to try to 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:23.560 make the iPhone more appealing to people coming from the 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:24.240 Android world. 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:27.400 Network effects him very important. 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:29.440 Yeah, I think there are case studies for business school 0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:33.120 written about Apples network effects. Well, Mark, I do, I 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:35.160 do want to. I mean you bring up, Mark, the 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:38.360 idea of people going out and buying iPhones or like, 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:40.120 you know, getting their family to do it. Didn't Tim 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:43.680 Cook a few years ago kind of rib somebody and 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:45.520 told told him to go buy an iPhone for his 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:46.840 mom or his grammar or something. 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:49.240 Well, if you think about it from a from a 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:52.480 financial standpoint and from a fiduciary duty standpoint, he probably 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:55.000 didn't need to say that. But you know, his number 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:57.280 one priority is to make as much of a return 0:15:57.280 --> 0:15:59.680 as he can for shareholders, and what drives that return 0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:03.280 is revenue. And so him telling that person in that audience, 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:04.480 I was actually there when he said. I was a 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:06.720 little shocked that he said that that he should buy 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:08.600 an iPhone from his mom. While that was maybe a 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:11.920 rude or snarkyar funny comment, the reality is is that's 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:13.960 what he has to say. But that was in response 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:16.520 to a question about RCS specifically. Now that I guess 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:18.480 the good news for that person in the crowd, if 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:20.480 they have not bought their mom and iPhones at this point, 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.840 is that RCS is coming to the iPhone, and it's 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:26.440 coming as part of iOS eighteen. It's already embedded in there, right. 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:28.840 I've been using RCS for for a couple months down so. 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:30.600 Well. 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:34.120 RCS it's Rich Communication Services. It's basically a next generation 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:37.160 version of SMS. It's what Android is using. It takes 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:40.239 a lot of the features like Wi Fi texting, read receipts, 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:45.160 delivered notifications, high resolution image transfers for both group chats 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:47.560 and one to one chats, brings them to the Android world. 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:50.000 And now if you're on an iPhone, you'll be able 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:53.280 to use RCS to communicate with people on the Android ecosystem. 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:56.160 So you'll start green bubble texting with people who don't 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:58.320 have an iPhone when you get this iosateen MP today 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:00.120 and you'll see you'll start getting read receipts, You'll the 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:02.760 images are coming in a little bit more clearly. So 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:05.000 that isn't that is a nice upgrade to make things 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:08.240 more interoperable. At the time, obviously this is not something 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:10.199 Apple wanted to do, but they sort of threw this 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:13.800 out as a as a peace offering, right, or as 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:18.480 an olive branch to the different regulatory you know, institutions 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:20.800 globally saying we're going to do this, you know, maybe 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:22.040 go a little bit easier on us. 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:25.040 Hey, Mark, we have a couple more minutes left with you. 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:26.480 I want to talk a little more about what we 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:29.160 learned from the company with regards to AI. You said 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:32.720 it's sort of this incremental rollout. What's the promise that 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.320 that Apple has to its customers when it comes to AI. 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:37.840 Well, the promise they have to their customers is that 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:40.040 it's going to launch in October, a month after it 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:44.359 launches after the new iPhones go on sale. And they've 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:47.280 basically promised a roadmap of features that are going to 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:50.280 launch over the next several months. But you know, their 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:54.000 big differentiator there is their privacy standpoint. Right. They've been 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:58.720 talking about their private cloud compute, which basically uses Apple 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:02.480 chips in the cloud to store and process the information 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:05.240 using artificial intelligence. And that's a little bit different in 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:09.040 the competition because they're promising to keep your data absolutely secure. 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:12.280 There have been other companies that use AI to create 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:15.159 data and profiles on users, whereas Apple is not doing that, 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:17.480 So that is a bit of a differentiator there. At 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.000 the same time, the functionality is not as broad and 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:22.440 as powerful, I would argue as AI on the Google 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:24.560 Pixel and the Samsung and some of the other films. 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:30.159 At the outset, you're talking about summarizing notification, notifications of 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:37.000 incoming messages, incoming emails, slacks, etc. You're talking about prioritizing notifications. 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:39.360 Once we get into December, we're starting to get into 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:43.640 the image generation class of products, right, talking about gen Moji, 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:46.879 which you can use text to create your own emoji. 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:50.720 There's an example of you can type in when pigs 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:53.760 fly and it'll create a flying pig to send back 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:56.359 to your friend and a text message. Right, and so 0:18:56.920 --> 0:18:58.480 that's going to be cool and fun and all. But 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:00.919 you know, we'll see if this is stuff that catches 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:03.439 on me personally. I don't think only nine percent of 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:06.879 consumers care about AI. They've heard of it, maybe they 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:08.199 don't know what it is, but I don't think they 0:19:08.240 --> 0:19:12.240 care enough to influence purchasing decisions. In larger numbers. 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:15.560 That was Bloomberg News Chief technology correspondent Mark German. 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.000 Speaking of Apple. The company's worth around three point four 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:20.600 trillion dollars, more than any other company in the world. 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:24.040 It's twenty twenty three revenue of nearly four hundred billion 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:27.000 dollars makes it about as big as the entire economy 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:29.720 of Denmark. Are the Philippines, and though most of the 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:33.440 business revolves around selling iPhones, it is definitely much more 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:35.000 than just the iPhone. 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:39.000 Last quarter, for example, Apples sales just from digital services 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:41.640 reach twenty four point two billion dollars. That's more than 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:45.600 the combined revenue of Adobe, Airbnb, Netflix, Palentteer, Spotify, Zoom 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:48.359 and x from Elon Musk. Investors seem to have no 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:51.720 problem with this kind of dominance. Apple's soaring stock price 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:54.600 over the past decade makes that clear. Regulators, on the 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:56.399 other hand, well they've got some questions. 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:59.560 Yeah, they definitely do. Bloomberg News technology reporter Austin Krr 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:03.359 and bluebe Our BusinessWeek columnist Max Chafkin wrote all about 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:05.480 it in this week's Big Take about how Apple has 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:09.120 come to rule the world. Austin joined Tim and Katie Greifeld. 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:13.400 The controversy comes down to how much Apple controls its ecosystem, 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:16.320 what they will let into. It's so called wald garden, 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:19.160 the sort of confines of its platform, and the truth 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:21.199 is they don't let a whole a lot in that 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:26.040 they don't regulate review and also charge certain commissions and 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:27.959 fees on, which is what a lot of developers are 0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:30.439 taking issues with. If you want to see where the 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:32.680 market is seeing a little bit of change, it's actually 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:36.280 in Europe with the DMA, the Digital Markets App with 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:40.560 the European Union has put Apple on under some pressure 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:43.680 to actually change its ways and open up that Apple Guard, 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:47.280 that wld garden effect. So actually there you're seeing some 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:50.359 pretty novel differences with how you have an iPhone in 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:54.600 the US. Just for example, they're opening up alternative marketplaces 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:57.440 in Europe, so you can actually download a different app 0:20:57.440 --> 0:21:00.000 store if you want a different set of experience from 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:03.840 different software makers, like Epic Games or another called Alt Store. 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:06.720 In fact, over in the EU, you can actually delete 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:10.439 Apple native apps, like soon you'll be able to delete 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:13.280 the browser Safari, the camera app, and even the app 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:15.920 store itself, which is opening up a sort of fundamentally 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:18.480 different experience that's a little bit more flexible and open 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:20.320 than what we have in the rest of the world. 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:22.280 So that's actually a good preview of what you might 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:24.840 see on the horizon depending on how regulation shapes up 0:21:24.880 --> 0:21:25.439 in the US. 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:28.320 And it's interesting because you can trust that with investors. 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:31.639 This feels like for potentially a case where regulators and 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:34.960 investors are at odds here because I don't know, Austin, 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:38.040 do you see any signs that investors are uneasy with 0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:40.280 just how dominant Apple is? 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:43.040 No, I mean, I think that lock in effect is 0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:46.080 actually what ironically makes it so enticing for investors and 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:49.240 also such a beloved company for consumers. I mean, look, 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:52.280 the tough thing for the DOJ here in the US, 0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:55.879 which filed its anti trust complaint earlier in March, is 0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:58.439 that what they take issue with, the way that Apple 0:21:58.440 --> 0:22:02.760 controls its ecosystem, integrates its hardware, software and services is 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:05.320 usually what consumers really love about it. You know, we 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:08.320 like that it works really together if you have a MacBook, 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:11.080 an Apple Watch, AirPods, and an iPhone at. 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:11.520 The same time. 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:15.440 We don't really quite grasp that because of that integrated experience, 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:18.639 what it's locking out it can be a detriment to 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:22.280 the experience itself. Even if we like the apple of 0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:25.720 day to day incremental updates. They didn't really release any 0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:28.280 new AI features that they hadn't already previewed. They're not 0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:30.960 actually going to come for a few months. That's one 0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:33.439 example of the ways that perhaps they're not incentivized to 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:36.080 move as fast and as risky and as innovatively as 0:22:36.080 --> 0:22:37.919 they had to in years past, because there's not a 0:22:37.920 --> 0:22:39.800 lot of risk that I as an iPhone user and 0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:41.400 going to leave to a different ecosystem. 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:43.320 Right, Well, let's talk about that a little bit more, 0:22:43.359 --> 0:22:45.680 because we're talking about regulators. Then we talked about investors, 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:48.640 and you bring up the end user, of course, the customer, 0:22:48.680 --> 0:22:51.920 the person who is buying into this walled garden. I mean, 0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:56.439 what is the sense there are users getting frustrated with 0:22:56.480 --> 0:22:58.520 the fact that you do have to buy. 0:22:58.400 --> 0:22:59.439 Into an ecosystem. 0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:01.919 You can't really I just a product one off and 0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:05.160 then integrate it with other products from other companies. 0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:08.520 The thing is that this isn't an overnight switch. This 0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:10.960 is something that they've essentially been building out from when 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:14.040 Steve Jobs came back and released the iMac than the iPod, 0:23:14.160 --> 0:23:16.520 and so on. You started building up that ecosystem over 0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:18.960 the course of decades where if you have an iPhone, 0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:21.600 remember that device came out before there was an app store, 0:23:21.640 --> 0:23:23.560 and then they introduced the App store a year later. 0:23:23.800 --> 0:23:27.560 Then they introduced a lot of companion devices like the iPad, 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:31.359 like the Apple Watch, like air pods, and then on 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:34.040 top of that, part of what makes CEO Tim Cook's 0:23:34.119 --> 0:23:37.600 era so monumental has been this push into services. So 0:23:37.680 --> 0:23:42.400 you subscribe to iCloud, you subscribe to TV Plus, fitness subscriptions, 0:23:42.400 --> 0:23:44.199 things like that, and so these are all things that 0:23:44.359 --> 0:23:46.919 add on to the experience and make it just that 0:23:47.040 --> 0:23:49.280 much easier to add a new Apple device or a 0:23:49.359 --> 0:23:52.040 new Apple subscription because that's your default, that's what you're 0:23:52.080 --> 0:23:55.000 going to want to add to now. That also makes 0:23:55.040 --> 0:23:58.120 it easier to escape that ecosystem. You know, once you've 0:23:58.160 --> 0:24:01.160 invested thousands of dollars in the app Apple ecosystem, you're 0:24:01.160 --> 0:24:03.760 not going to suddenly overnight switch to a Windows PC 0:24:04.440 --> 0:24:06.879 or a Google Pixel phone just because they add a 0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:09.960 new AI feature. It makes that sort of mote that 0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:13.120 Apple has all the wider because it is very difficult 0:24:13.160 --> 0:24:15.199 to people not just to switch one device, but to 0:24:15.200 --> 0:24:17.840 switch their entire portfolio of hardware and software. And I 0:24:17.840 --> 0:24:20.800 think that's why shareholders really love Apple stock, because its 0:24:20.840 --> 0:24:23.440 mode is so wide. It's walled garden barriers are so tall. 0:24:23.680 --> 0:24:26.400 Austin, you and Max, I love the way you start 0:24:26.400 --> 0:24:29.800 the piece that iconic nineteen eighty four Apple ad the 0:24:29.840 --> 0:24:33.320 sort of David versus Golias, you know, and where Apple 0:24:33.320 --> 0:24:37.680 has come since then and from then. I wonder, just 0:24:37.720 --> 0:24:39.520 in the last thirty seconds that we have with you, 0:24:39.840 --> 0:24:42.359 what the biggest threat to Apple is right now moving forward? 0:24:43.440 --> 0:24:45.679 I mean, I think it is sort of a feeling 0:24:45.680 --> 0:24:50.119 of incrementalism of you know, things aren't seemingly disruptive until 0:24:50.119 --> 0:24:53.919 they are being able to disrupt, until they are disrupted. 0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:54.199 You know. 0:24:54.240 --> 0:24:56.560 I think when chat ChiPT came along in late twenty 0:24:56.600 --> 0:24:58.679 twenty two, that shocked a lot of people. No one 0:24:58.720 --> 0:25:01.040 had ever seen anything like that. And here we are 0:25:01.040 --> 0:25:03.960 two years later and Apple's just getting around to rolling 0:25:03.960 --> 0:25:06.160 out its AI features, maybe if which won't roll out 0:25:06.160 --> 0:25:09.000 to twenty twenty five. Now, did that disrupt you know, 0:25:09.080 --> 0:25:11.199 sales of the iPhone going for work. No, there's not 0:25:11.200 --> 0:25:13.720 really a chat Schipt phone that's out there, but you 0:25:13.760 --> 0:25:17.480 can see the risks of sort of slowly introducing some 0:25:17.560 --> 0:25:21.440 of this this innovation. You know, it has downsides for consumers. 0:25:21.520 --> 0:25:22.919 At what point are they going to say, you know what, 0:25:22.960 --> 0:25:24.960 I want something a little bit sooner. I want something 0:25:24.960 --> 0:25:26.360 a little bit faster and cooler. 0:25:26.520 --> 0:25:28.800 Austin Carr one half of the team that did today's 0:25:28.800 --> 0:25:31.040 at Bloomberg Big Take. Check it out at Bloomberg dot com, 0:25:31.040 --> 0:25:33.639 Slash the Big Take, and of course, on the terminal. 0:25:34.760 --> 0:25:38.639 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live 0:25:38.720 --> 0:25:41.520 each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple car 0:25:41.640 --> 0:25:44.600 Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business Ad. You 0:25:44.640 --> 0:25:47.920 can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship 0:25:47.960 --> 0:25:52.080 New York station Just say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:25:53.480 --> 0:25:53.640 Well. 0:25:53.640 --> 0:25:56.560 Our next guest is the former chairman and CEO of 0:25:56.640 --> 0:26:00.680 the Dow Chemical Companies, also former executive chairman of DuPont. 0:26:00.720 --> 0:26:03.080 He spent more than forty years at the company. He 0:26:03.080 --> 0:26:06.640 worked in engineering, he worked in manufacturing, management, sales, marketing, 0:26:06.880 --> 0:26:10.080 and more. Andrew Liveris is also the author of the 0:26:10.160 --> 0:26:13.919 book Leading Through Disruption, a change Maker's Guide to twenty 0:26:13.920 --> 0:26:16.720 first century Leadership. The book came out last year. We're 0:26:16.720 --> 0:26:18.919 happy to have you here in our Bloomberg studio. How 0:26:18.960 --> 0:26:21.840 are you? I'm good, tim thank you, welcome. More than 0:26:21.880 --> 0:26:25.200 forty years at a single company, it's not something that well, 0:26:25.680 --> 0:26:27.560 I mean, I was going to say, it's not something 0:26:27.560 --> 0:26:30.439 you see in that like in our generation. But Katie's 0:26:30.440 --> 0:26:32.760 actually born here. Yeah, you've been here your whole life. 0:26:32.920 --> 0:26:33.760 Never left the building up. 0:26:33.800 --> 0:26:35.959 I'll take I take that back. But in all seriousness, 0:26:36.240 --> 0:26:39.440 you don't see the tenure of somebody spending their entire 0:26:39.480 --> 0:26:42.720 career at a company. Was that detrimental to a career. 0:26:42.920 --> 0:26:45.479 I think you can have many many careers in one career. 0:26:46.000 --> 0:26:48.800 And I had many geographies. I was had in Australia, 0:26:49.200 --> 0:26:52.879 worked in Hong Kong, spent a lot of time in China, Korea, Thailand, 0:26:53.760 --> 0:26:56.520 brought to Louisiana, called out a different country sometimes, and 0:26:56.560 --> 0:26:59.920 then you know, back to Ashaw. So they moved me around. 0:27:00.400 --> 0:27:02.240 So as a young person, I ever thought I'd be 0:27:02.240 --> 0:27:06.240 a global nomad. I became one. And then to the book, 0:27:06.359 --> 0:27:08.920 I became a global citizen, which I don't think there's 0:27:08.920 --> 0:27:11.480 a lot of us around, and I think big American 0:27:11.520 --> 0:27:14.359 global companies do that to people. They expose us to 0:27:14.440 --> 0:27:17.919 these different risks and uncertainties and make you, as a 0:27:17.960 --> 0:27:21.000 young person, have experiences that you otherwise will not get 0:27:21.040 --> 0:27:24.119 in sort of a singular career. So I didn't consider 0:27:24.160 --> 0:27:26.840 it one career nor forty years. But every time someone 0:27:26.880 --> 0:27:29.120 says that to me, I say, really, did that long? 0:27:29.320 --> 0:27:30.240 It doesn't feel like it? 0:27:30.359 --> 0:27:32.400 No, No, A second lightning second. 0:27:32.560 --> 0:27:34.200 Wow, Yeah, that's really interesting. 0:27:34.240 --> 0:27:37.119 I mean, do you think that's important experience to have 0:27:37.200 --> 0:27:39.280 this idea of being a global citizen? When you take 0:27:39.280 --> 0:27:42.720 a look at corporate leadership today, do you view that 0:27:42.800 --> 0:27:44.280 as a prerequisite. 0:27:44.440 --> 0:27:47.800 Yeah, I think the world has gone tribal. We're retreating 0:27:47.880 --> 0:27:52.359 to our tribes. We're not understanding each other. And the 0:27:52.440 --> 0:27:55.879 vacuum from political leadership is huge. As we're noticing everywhere 0:27:55.880 --> 0:27:58.960 in the world, democracy and capitalism is going through a divorce, 0:27:59.440 --> 0:28:02.240 and so the distribution of wealth has been uneven and 0:28:02.280 --> 0:28:05.119 now we've seen decades of it. And those of us 0:28:05.160 --> 0:28:06.720 who are lucky to be born in the right place 0:28:06.760 --> 0:28:09.719 with the right parents, yeah, we're good. But that's a 0:28:09.840 --> 0:28:12.040 small percentage of us. So then how do we bring 0:28:12.080 --> 0:28:15.000 these tribes together? In the twenty first century, the digital 0:28:15.000 --> 0:28:15.920 assault on all of. 0:28:15.920 --> 0:28:16.880 Us is known. 0:28:16.960 --> 0:28:20.639 You know, we are clearly getting assaulted with information that 0:28:20.840 --> 0:28:23.880 we can't make sense of. Young people are seeing wars 0:28:24.000 --> 0:28:26.200 around the place. They're seeing what's going on with the 0:28:26.280 --> 0:28:30.760 environment and social injustices, these tectonic shifts. All of us 0:28:30.760 --> 0:28:33.360 are retreating to our tribes. So the term global citizen 0:28:33.760 --> 0:28:36.600 and how to bring these tribes together in this new 0:28:36.720 --> 0:28:39.360 world of ours twenty first century is really what the 0:28:39.400 --> 0:28:43.520 book speaks to. My observation is that everything still is 0:28:43.520 --> 0:28:48.440 community based. We like neighbors, we like being in person 0:28:48.520 --> 0:28:51.840 and having you know, a beer or a barbecue with 0:28:51.920 --> 0:28:54.080 our neighbors. We're going to create that feeling on a 0:28:54.080 --> 0:28:56.320 global level, and to do that, you've got to get 0:28:56.360 --> 0:28:57.880 the right type of leader in place. 0:28:58.640 --> 0:29:01.160 I'm glad you brought this up because I've been referring 0:29:01.160 --> 0:29:03.160 to this article that Simone Foxman wrote at the end 0:29:03.160 --> 0:29:05.160 of last month quite a bit, because we've seen this 0:29:05.280 --> 0:29:10.200 backlash of DEI at companies. So I'll read from it. 0:29:11.040 --> 0:29:17.040 Lowe's Harley Davidson, Tractor Supplied, Deer Brown, Foreman, and most recently, 0:29:17.200 --> 0:29:20.000 among most recently Ford, the latest in a string of 0:29:20.080 --> 0:29:22.520 high profile companies they've pulled back on pledges to commit 0:29:22.560 --> 0:29:25.640 to diversity, equity and inclusion programs, many of them that 0:29:25.640 --> 0:29:28.840 were made in the wake of George Floyd's death back 0:29:28.840 --> 0:29:32.400 in twenty twenty. How do you see the role of 0:29:32.440 --> 0:29:36.520 a corporation or a company in a world where there's 0:29:36.560 --> 0:29:40.440 so much pushback when a company comes out and speaks 0:29:40.880 --> 0:29:43.440 for something. Should companies even be speaking out for or 0:29:43.480 --> 0:29:44.320 against this stuff? 0:29:44.680 --> 0:29:44.880 Yeah? 0:29:45.080 --> 0:29:48.000 I'm very big on purpose based leadership. Purpose based leadership 0:29:48.040 --> 0:29:52.880 being values based. Society's are demanding that we earn the 0:29:52.920 --> 0:29:56.800 licensed to operate as enterprises. Societies evolved from one hundred 0:29:56.880 --> 0:30:00.240 years ago, fifty years ago, twenty years ago. DEI came 0:30:00.280 --> 0:30:03.480 a fad and became something that I think the term 0:30:03.520 --> 0:30:06.520 workism was born. That's when it's at its worse, because 0:30:06.520 --> 0:30:09.520 if it's a quota based system or a prescription or 0:30:09.560 --> 0:30:14.040 a rule in some financial capital allocation process, that's not DEI. 0:30:14.400 --> 0:30:14.720 Okay. 0:30:14.880 --> 0:30:18.280 DEI is absolutely putting in place human systems that respect 0:30:18.320 --> 0:30:21.000 each other and have integrity and treat each other fairly, 0:30:21.360 --> 0:30:24.440 and that those systems are transparent. And I happen to 0:30:24.480 --> 0:30:27.520 believe that global corporations like Dow do that and do 0:30:27.560 --> 0:30:29.160 that well. I'm on the board of IBM We do 0:30:29.200 --> 0:30:33.120 that very well there, but to do that across cultures, 0:30:33.520 --> 0:30:35.720 we're finding that actually we're not taking time to walk 0:30:35.760 --> 0:30:37.880 in each other's shoes. And then if we're looking within 0:30:37.920 --> 0:30:40.640 the country to take the United States, we are divided 0:30:40.680 --> 0:30:43.200 because we're not taking time to understand each other. Who 0:30:43.200 --> 0:30:46.960 should take the responsibility for that clearly government, But government 0:30:47.440 --> 0:30:49.360 is spending all of its time trying to get elected. 0:30:49.560 --> 0:30:53.040 It's very short term, so we say what's popular, So 0:30:53.240 --> 0:30:58.959 populism anti dei or prodi is the wrong prescription. What 0:30:59.000 --> 0:31:00.719 you've got to figure out is how to actually put 0:31:00.760 --> 0:31:03.400 in place long term measures to allow access to the 0:31:03.440 --> 0:31:07.520 two things that matter in human involved society, education and health. 0:31:07.600 --> 0:31:09.200 And you think you can do that without a company 0:31:09.240 --> 0:31:10.040 coming out and looking. 0:31:09.960 --> 0:31:13.880 Quote absolutely absolutely I mean DOW. I mean we had 0:31:13.960 --> 0:31:17.280 our own healthcare system for our employees. We absolutely totally 0:31:17.360 --> 0:31:20.680 hire with equality and social justice in mind. We go 0:31:20.760 --> 0:31:23.080 to all the schools where we can get diversity of talent. 0:31:23.160 --> 0:31:26.160 Look at me, I'm an Australian of Greek origins from 0:31:26.240 --> 0:31:29.160 northern out back Australia. How did I ever become CEO 0:31:29.200 --> 0:31:32.760 of DOW? I mean, so I was given opportunity companies 0:31:32.800 --> 0:31:35.720 can do that. I think the answer today is don't 0:31:35.720 --> 0:31:39.120 look to the political body, look to the enterprise that 0:31:39.240 --> 0:31:42.239 is purpose based, and don't make it a fad that 0:31:42.320 --> 0:31:43.040 comes and goes. 0:31:43.680 --> 0:31:46.360 Well, this conversation reminds me of sort of the backlash 0:31:46.360 --> 0:31:50.120 we've also seen against ESG, of course, especially when you 0:31:50.120 --> 0:31:52.680 think about the governance part of ESG. And I mean 0:31:52.680 --> 0:31:55.360 one of the rallying cries for sort of the anti 0:31:55.640 --> 0:31:59.360 ESG folks was that why are you not focusing on 0:31:59.800 --> 0:32:00.800 me making money? 0:32:01.000 --> 0:32:01.600 Basically? 0:32:02.400 --> 0:32:04.479 And they would say that there's a tension there between 0:32:04.520 --> 0:32:08.200 that values based leadership and actually. 0:32:08.120 --> 0:32:10.080 Making a profit making money. I mean, how would you 0:32:10.120 --> 0:32:10.640 answer that? 0:32:11.040 --> 0:32:13.280 Yeah, the first chapter of the book is on that topic. 0:32:13.560 --> 0:32:15.920 And the first thing I say is can we get 0:32:15.960 --> 0:32:19.600 away with these acronyms? Stop them, stop them please? They 0:32:19.600 --> 0:32:23.040 don't mean anything. ESG meant nothing to nobody. So then 0:32:23.120 --> 0:32:26.080 people started attacking it on the money making thing. So 0:32:26.120 --> 0:32:30.840 I divide it into its three very important subjects, environmental stewardship, 0:32:31.480 --> 0:32:34.800 social stewardship, and governance with a big G and a 0:32:34.840 --> 0:32:37.080 little G. And then I take all those subjects and 0:32:37.080 --> 0:32:38.920 I look at them from the point of view of 0:32:39.200 --> 0:32:41.400 what's my long term cost of ownership. If I put 0:32:41.400 --> 0:32:43.840 all those things in place, and by the way, if 0:32:43.880 --> 0:32:46.400 I do things right, by the long term, I set 0:32:46.440 --> 0:32:50.560 a standard so high that if governments regulate and regulate correctly, 0:32:50.880 --> 0:32:52.720 then absolutely I can make a profit when no one 0:32:52.760 --> 0:32:55.600 else can. In other words, it's not the ninety day 0:32:55.640 --> 0:32:59.200 return I'm looking for with EESG. It's actually the return 0:32:59.280 --> 0:33:02.040 over ten years, which is in essence, what you do 0:33:02.080 --> 0:33:04.880 when you build a building, what you build a factory. 0:33:05.200 --> 0:33:07.720 You look at what the impact is on the human 0:33:07.720 --> 0:33:10.960 system and the environment, and then you become the steward 0:33:11.320 --> 0:33:13.920 of what is E S and G. And I divide 0:33:13.920 --> 0:33:18.200 the subject as a business subject. At dow sustainabily wasn't 0:33:18.200 --> 0:33:21.200 an initiative, it was absolutely a business subject. 0:33:21.480 --> 0:33:24.560 What about politics? Everyone loves talking politics. 0:33:24.800 --> 0:33:26.760 Let's go there's a lot of around lately. 0:33:27.760 --> 0:33:30.320 What should the role of a leader be, a leader 0:33:30.320 --> 0:33:33.160 of a corporation be in a highly charged political environment? 0:33:33.480 --> 0:33:36.600 So the extreme of politics is what we're living with, 0:33:36.640 --> 0:33:39.160 whether it's in Europe or I said, democracy and capitalism 0:33:39.240 --> 0:33:42.080 going through divorce mostly because of short termism and the 0:33:42.120 --> 0:33:45.440 disease of short termism. Politicians are trying to get elected. 0:33:45.480 --> 0:33:47.120 And we should know. You were a leader of President 0:33:47.120 --> 0:33:48.560 Trump's Manufacturing Council. 0:33:48.360 --> 0:33:51.920 Right, and also President Obama's and also advised President Bush. 0:33:52.000 --> 0:33:54.520 So you've been you've been doing President Biden. 0:33:54.240 --> 0:33:58.680 On infrastructure, okay, and I've just been given a request 0:33:58.680 --> 0:34:01.320 from a Harris campaign to help out. So all of 0:34:01.320 --> 0:34:03.960 that to tell you, I'm not afraid of politics because 0:34:04.000 --> 0:34:07.040 what I do as a corporate leader is embrace policy. 0:34:07.560 --> 0:34:11.120 And policy is where the word politics comes from. And 0:34:11.160 --> 0:34:14.560 if I embrace policy that is fair and balance, it 0:34:14.560 --> 0:34:18.320 doesn't become extreme because you have to compromise. Us politics 0:34:18.400 --> 0:34:22.280 used to understand the art of compromise between the Houses 0:34:22.600 --> 0:34:26.719 and the executive branch. Lost that. Probably the last administration 0:34:27.080 --> 0:34:29.920 that had compromised in its mix was the Plinton one. 0:34:30.040 --> 0:34:32.120 And so we've gone to these extremes were left wing 0:34:32.160 --> 0:34:34.560 policies and right being policy. So who's going to fill 0:34:34.560 --> 0:34:38.760 the vacuum? I think enterprises and corporate leaders should Why 0:34:39.160 --> 0:34:44.200 because they run ecosystems around all communities. A doow one 0:34:44.280 --> 0:34:47.560 hundred and sixty countries, pretty much half the states of America. 0:34:47.680 --> 0:34:51.160 We listen to communities. This is what politics are stopped doing. 0:34:51.640 --> 0:34:53.920 One policy that I know is of interest to our 0:34:54.000 --> 0:34:56.200 listeners and our viewers, because one just got in touch 0:34:56.320 --> 0:34:59.400 with me to ask you about tariffs. Yeah, one of 0:34:59.400 --> 0:35:01.920 our listeners want to know about what tariffs mean to 0:35:01.960 --> 0:35:06.280 you through the lands of a CEO who created things? 0:35:06.880 --> 0:35:09.960 And do you see retaliatory behavior globally as a result 0:35:09.960 --> 0:35:11.000 of tariffs. 0:35:10.960 --> 0:35:12.799 Believe it or not. This is my second book. My 0:35:12.880 --> 0:35:16.400 first book, Making in America, was written in twenty eleven 0:35:16.480 --> 0:35:20.279 after my observation that China and a lot of the 0:35:20.320 --> 0:35:24.440 countries in the Faris in particular, were my competitors. They 0:35:24.440 --> 0:35:29.640 weren't companies, they were countries. American global companies competed against 0:35:29.680 --> 0:35:37.120 countries who subsidized oka their industries solar renewables win evs. Lately, 0:35:37.800 --> 0:35:41.479 that type of subsidy is not fair market practice. So 0:35:41.560 --> 0:35:45.120 how do you collaborate unfair market practice? What you put 0:35:45.160 --> 0:35:49.200 in place rules standards? In other words, what's the standard 0:35:49.280 --> 0:35:52.319 for selling a product in my country? And then non 0:35:52.360 --> 0:35:55.719 tariff tariff barriers. In essence, that basically means you have 0:35:55.760 --> 0:35:58.520 to meet my regulations and then if they all fail, 0:35:58.760 --> 0:36:00.440 then you have to resort to tarif. I'm not a 0:36:00.440 --> 0:36:03.120 fan of tariff's, but you've got to provide a runway 0:36:03.160 --> 0:36:07.640 for competitive advantage. A competitive advantage comes from your ability 0:36:07.680 --> 0:36:10.359 to not be subsidized and to actually do it based 0:36:10.360 --> 0:36:13.880 on human talent. Capital is no longer a differentiator an innovation. 0:36:14.440 --> 0:36:17.280 America has still got the best innovators on the planet. 0:36:17.880 --> 0:36:20.640 They don't need to be subsidized. But do they need 0:36:20.680 --> 0:36:24.480 a runway where to actually scale and make money so 0:36:24.520 --> 0:36:27.800 they can afford to build an innovator. The answer is yes. 0:36:28.239 --> 0:36:31.120 Tariff's aid best is a temporary fix, not a long 0:36:31.200 --> 0:36:31.680 term fix. 0:36:32.200 --> 0:36:35.120 More than forty years at one company, you saw a lot. 0:36:35.640 --> 0:36:37.280 I'm going to ask you about some of the challenging 0:36:37.640 --> 0:36:40.719 times that you saw at the company. How do you 0:36:41.160 --> 0:36:42.960 deal with that challenging legacy? 0:36:43.160 --> 0:36:46.640 You know, the decades before I joined ow that DEO 0:36:47.080 --> 0:36:49.560 was you know, Doll was eighteen ninety seven. So in 0:36:49.600 --> 0:36:51.840 the many decades of learning how to work with government 0:36:52.200 --> 0:36:56.520 and agencies, as America progressed and obviously understood science and 0:36:56.640 --> 0:37:01.399 chemistry and its effects on human ecosystems, environment, it meant 0:37:01.400 --> 0:37:03.440 that the first of the birth of the EPA, and 0:37:03.480 --> 0:37:06.560 then I talked about the five d's. The first D 0:37:07.120 --> 0:37:10.400 is defiance. They don't know what they're talking about. The 0:37:10.440 --> 0:37:14.759 second is denial, that's not us. The third is they're 0:37:14.760 --> 0:37:18.920 not going away, Let's have a debate. And then the 0:37:18.960 --> 0:37:22.680 fourth D is Okay, the debate's not leading anywhere. Let's 0:37:22.680 --> 0:37:26.160 have a discussion about how to fix something. Those four d's, 0:37:26.239 --> 0:37:28.160 I'll get to the fifth and a second is what 0:37:28.239 --> 0:37:31.240 we learned in terms of how to work with government 0:37:31.640 --> 0:37:34.200 on the regulatory side. So by the time I became CEO, 0:37:34.760 --> 0:37:37.520 I actually learned that the most powerful combination of words, 0:37:37.680 --> 0:37:40.320 as it relates to what you just asked about chemistry 0:37:40.360 --> 0:37:43.640 and the environment, chemistry and human systems was regulation. That 0:37:43.840 --> 0:37:48.440 was smart. Smart regulation meant the regular t now had 0:37:48.480 --> 0:37:52.000 to work with the government body and actually helped come 0:37:52.080 --> 0:37:54.719 up with the better REGs. Why because science changes. We 0:37:54.760 --> 0:37:57.960 can measure things in parts petrillion today whereas thirty years 0:37:57.960 --> 0:38:01.640 ago parts per million, and ability to do that needs 0:38:01.680 --> 0:38:04.160 to be shared and made available. So that's what I 0:38:04.160 --> 0:38:06.359 did it Now, I made it all that available so 0:38:06.400 --> 0:38:08.920 that governments could work closely with us. I spent more 0:38:08.920 --> 0:38:12.200 time in Washington than any other former CEO because of that. 0:38:12.560 --> 0:38:15.080 In other words, I've got to help them help us. 0:38:15.400 --> 0:38:19.040 The fifty is do let's do something about it. Let's 0:38:19.080 --> 0:38:21.480 not just talk and so putting it into an action. 0:38:21.600 --> 0:38:23.719 If you're running one hundred year old company, it's not 0:38:23.760 --> 0:38:25.960 a startup, right. I mean, you've got to create an 0:38:26.080 --> 0:38:28.960 entrepreneurial culture that got us got us there in the 0:38:28.960 --> 0:38:31.640 first place. Everyone had to be small once. When you 0:38:31.680 --> 0:38:34.600 become big, you've got to remember what made you good 0:38:34.600 --> 0:38:37.560 when you were small. And so I got our PhDs 0:38:37.640 --> 0:38:40.680 and our scientists with our customers to come up with 0:38:40.920 --> 0:38:44.560 the better answer and that sort of mindset around science 0:38:44.560 --> 0:38:46.799 and chemistry. I talk about it in the book. We've 0:38:46.840 --> 0:38:49.960 got to absolutely humanize science. We've got to make our 0:38:50.080 --> 0:38:52.920 scientists as heroes, as our sports stars on with the 0:38:52.920 --> 0:38:56.560 Olympics these days, or our celebrities. We've got to look 0:38:56.600 --> 0:38:58.960 at as young people. We're going to look at science 0:38:59.000 --> 0:39:01.800 and say these are the problems and trying to change 0:39:01.800 --> 0:39:05.520 that attitude. I changed the company's culture, and that type 0:39:05.520 --> 0:39:08.120 of company then has the right to operate in the 0:39:08.160 --> 0:39:11.040 twenty first century. And of course I digitized, I made 0:39:11.080 --> 0:39:14.319 it sustainable all those things now. To do that, I 0:39:14.320 --> 0:39:17.480 had a fifteen year tenure. Most CEOs don't last that long. 0:39:17.920 --> 0:39:20.520 I had to see through what I said I would do, 0:39:21.080 --> 0:39:24.160 and I happened to think I was an entrepreneur from 0:39:24.680 --> 0:39:27.040 a young age twenty one. I just didn't know it. 0:39:27.560 --> 0:39:28.960 Today I would. 0:39:28.760 --> 0:39:31.759 Say I was a corporate entrepreneur, and I think we 0:39:31.840 --> 0:39:38.000 need that type of leader in charge to be flexible, agile, resilient, patient, 0:39:38.320 --> 0:39:42.399 but of course collaborative, to absolutely totally get the other 0:39:42.520 --> 0:39:44.800 side of the conversation to the table. 0:39:45.800 --> 0:39:49.720 And you bring up the Olympics. You did my segue 0:39:49.800 --> 0:39:52.600 a little bit for me in talking about the five days. 0:39:52.600 --> 0:39:54.279 You bring up the Olympics. You know you want to 0:39:54.280 --> 0:39:58.919 make your scientists as famous as revered as Olympians. Let's 0:39:58.960 --> 0:40:00.800 actually talk about Olympia and stuff, because. 0:40:00.600 --> 0:40:01.800 This is really interesting. 0:40:01.840 --> 0:40:04.960 You are involved in planning the twenty thirty two Olympics 0:40:05.360 --> 0:40:09.680 in Brisbane, your native Australia. I actually was in Paris, 0:40:10.160 --> 0:40:11.760 I heard during the commercial. 0:40:11.400 --> 0:40:14.000 Breakdown as a viewer athlete. 0:40:14.320 --> 0:40:16.840 Not as an athlete. We are training super hard for 0:40:16.840 --> 0:40:18.759 twenty twenty eight. Not sure I'm going to get there, 0:40:19.400 --> 0:40:22.400 but let's talk about twenty thirty two because Paris did. 0:40:22.280 --> 0:40:23.520 A beautiful job. 0:40:23.560 --> 0:40:25.960 I know that you spent several weeks in Paris as well. 0:40:26.160 --> 0:40:29.720 What experience is what takeaways can you take from Paris. 0:40:30.040 --> 0:40:31.560 As you look to the future, as you look to 0:40:31.600 --> 0:40:33.080 twenty thirty two, the. 0:40:33.120 --> 0:40:36.680 Olympics of the twenty first century, you use the keyword experience. 0:40:37.360 --> 0:40:41.239 I think humanity is actually buying experiences and actually I'm 0:40:41.280 --> 0:40:43.680 going to use the word fun, but it actually likes. 0:40:43.800 --> 0:40:46.400 Humanity likes to be with each other. And Paris was 0:40:46.400 --> 0:40:49.360 the first Olympics really since Rio. Yeah, when everyone was together. 0:40:49.400 --> 0:40:53.279 Remember Tokyo had the COVID delay, that opportunity for the 0:40:53.280 --> 0:40:55.799 Parisians to put on the best of their culture, which 0:40:55.840 --> 0:40:58.480 they did, but to make it fun, to make it 0:40:58.520 --> 0:41:00.840 to a bane. If you've got a chance to go to 0:41:00.880 --> 0:41:05.080 the urban park where they had the five urban sports 0:41:05.760 --> 0:41:08.040 and field yeah, well track and field was for normal 0:41:08.320 --> 0:41:11.680 started a France, but the Parisian crowds turned up for 0:41:11.719 --> 0:41:14.840 these newer sports, skateboarding, breakdancing. 0:41:14.960 --> 0:41:20.080 You know, everybody was talking by Australian Regan. 0:41:20.280 --> 0:41:24.680 I know what she did, so certainly got it in fact. 0:41:25.000 --> 0:41:28.239 But the fun and the experience is what stood out 0:41:28.239 --> 0:41:33.480 in Paris that humanity basically went back to the ancient Greeks. 0:41:33.600 --> 0:41:36.399 I'm a Greek descent and said, let's put down all 0:41:36.400 --> 0:41:38.760 of our ills, all of our woes and let's enjoy 0:41:38.800 --> 0:41:42.400 each other. Paris did that in space the sensational games, 0:41:42.680 --> 0:41:46.000 not just the Olympics, but the Paralympics. Actually, I enjoyed 0:41:46.000 --> 0:41:49.240 the Paralympics as much as the Olympics because I saw 0:41:49.840 --> 0:41:53.560 humans with disabilities not think of themselves that way. They 0:41:53.560 --> 0:41:57.520 saw themselves as high performance athletes doing amazing things. And 0:41:57.560 --> 0:42:01.520 you know what, they're right and they've had to overcome. 0:42:01.600 --> 0:42:04.000 Each of them has the story and a narrative. Spent 0:42:04.080 --> 0:42:06.560 a lot of time with them talking about that. It 0:42:06.600 --> 0:42:09.520 was for me it raised the bar for Brisbane. As 0:42:09.560 --> 0:42:11.759 you just said, Lucky for me, I've got La in 0:42:11.800 --> 0:42:13.600 the middle. Although La, I think is going to do 0:42:13.640 --> 0:42:14.520 a pretty good job too. 0:42:14.719 --> 0:42:15.799 Pretty excited for that one. 0:42:16.000 --> 0:42:19.680 Yeah it's not exactly a gorgeous European city. 0:42:19.400 --> 0:42:21.840 But yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:42:22.239 --> 0:42:24.200 Maybe they'll transform it well who knows. 0:42:24.239 --> 0:42:28.240 But they definitely have Hollywood and celebrities and venues. 0:42:28.360 --> 0:42:29.040 That's a glitz. 0:42:29.320 --> 0:42:31.880 Yeah, that's a glitz. Let's a glitz. I have nature, 0:42:32.640 --> 0:42:36.520 I have Australia. I have a warm, friendly society. I 0:42:36.560 --> 0:42:39.279 have and a bit of leader to actually use oceans 0:42:39.360 --> 0:42:44.600 and rivers and forests and reefs and put on a 0:42:44.640 --> 0:42:48.160 spectacle where the Olympics meets nature and the other way around. 0:42:48.480 --> 0:42:52.920 Our motto already is shine brightest period together. 0:42:53.360 --> 0:42:53.879 I love it. 0:42:54.080 --> 0:42:56.800 Yeah, of course I'm. 0:42:56.640 --> 0:42:57.160 Going to go. 0:42:58.560 --> 0:42:59.440 After I looks at Paris. 0:42:59.440 --> 0:43:01.160 Person was my some of the Olympics. I want to 0:43:01.200 --> 0:43:03.400 go every four years. I want to make it a priority. 0:43:03.520 --> 0:43:05.040 You got time twenty thirty two. 0:43:05.440 --> 0:43:06.640 Okay, it's on the calendar. 0:43:07.239 --> 0:43:11.640 All right, Katie's there. A big thank you. Andrew. Andrew 0:43:11.640 --> 0:43:15.840 liveris his book Leading Through Disruption, A change Maker's Guide 0:43:15.880 --> 0:43:20.319 to twenty first century leadership. Former CEO of the Dow 0:43:20.400 --> 0:43:23.200 Chemical Company, former executive chair of Dow DuPont. He's on 0:43:23.239 --> 0:43:27.400 the boards of Lucid Group, Sadi Raby Oil, IBM, and 0:43:27.440 --> 0:43:31.080 he's working hard on the Olympics. This is Bloomberg BusinessWeek. 0:43:33.960 --> 0:43:37.520 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:43:37.520 --> 0:43:40.760 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern Listen 0:43:40.800 --> 0:43:42.960 on Apple, car Play and and Broyd Auto with a 0:43:43.000 --> 0:43:46.040 Bloomberg Business act or wants us live on YouTube. 0:43:47.480 --> 0:43:49.399 Plenty ahead in our second hour of the weekend edition 0:43:49.400 --> 0:43:52.840 of Bloomberg Business Week, including bringing back the Sport and 0:43:52.920 --> 0:43:56.720 sportswear Helen Tuckett teamed up with baseball legend and investor 0:43:56.760 --> 0:43:59.160 Derek Jeter with the goal of creating the next great 0:43:59.239 --> 0:44:00.720 athletic brand. 0:44:00.440 --> 0:44:03.359 Plus pulling back the curtain and digging deeper on what 0:44:03.400 --> 0:44:06.400 it takes for world class CEOs to reinvent themselves. The 0:44:06.480 --> 0:44:09.200 author of the Journey of Leadership joins us later on. 0:44:09.239 --> 0:44:11.719 First Up This Hour. It's been pretty slow progress, but 0:44:11.840 --> 0:44:14.319 the gap between women and men in leadership roles at 0:44:14.440 --> 0:44:17.840 US business schools has been shrinking, especially as more women 0:44:17.880 --> 0:44:21.000 are promoted to positions that are stepping stones to deanships. 0:44:21.360 --> 0:44:25.040 According to research by the Association to Advanced Collegiate Schools 0:44:25.040 --> 0:44:28.479 of Business in twenty twenty three to this year, women 0:44:28.560 --> 0:44:31.280 deans at three hundred and sixty eight US business schools 0:44:31.280 --> 0:44:34.239 represented thirty percent of the total. It's an increase from 0:44:34.280 --> 0:44:36.600 seventeen percent in two thousand and seventy two thousand and eight. 0:44:37.000 --> 0:44:41.240 What's more, the AACSB found women now account for forty 0:44:41.280 --> 0:44:44.040 three percent of associate business school deans. It's a position 0:44:44.080 --> 0:44:47.360 that often leads to a deanship, thirty four percent currently 0:44:47.360 --> 0:44:50.439 in that role. We're once associate B school deans. 0:44:50.120 --> 0:44:52.959 All right, So sound like the trend is a good one. 0:44:53.080 --> 0:44:55.759 Even though the gap is shrinking, women still make up 0:44:55.840 --> 0:44:58.880 only a third of all business school deans. One of 0:44:58.920 --> 0:45:01.399 those deans is when now she is dean of the 0:45:01.480 --> 0:45:04.759 Villanova School of Business. She joined Tim, Katie Greyfield and 0:45:04.760 --> 0:45:08.280 Bloomberg News Senior editor Dimitra Cassani's. 0:45:07.680 --> 0:45:09.840 Demeter, I want to start with you. I want you 0:45:09.880 --> 0:45:12.920 to set the scene for us, because each year you 0:45:13.000 --> 0:45:17.040 spend a lot of time focusing on business schools for 0:45:17.040 --> 0:45:21.120 Bloomberg Business Week. Take us into the gender gap when 0:45:21.120 --> 0:45:22.799 it comes to leadership at these schools. 0:45:22.960 --> 0:45:25.040 Well, it's just like the numbers that you just mentioned. 0:45:25.080 --> 0:45:28.239 I mean, there's been a substantial gender gap, but we 0:45:28.320 --> 0:45:32.160 see it narrowing and importantly so I think you see 0:45:32.160 --> 0:45:34.400 it to some degree in a way with our guests 0:45:34.400 --> 0:45:38.399 today with Dean Mao of Villanova. Women who've been at 0:45:38.440 --> 0:45:41.360 these institutions for a while, who've been growing in different 0:45:41.440 --> 0:45:45.120 positions and moving their way up. And as we see 0:45:45.360 --> 0:45:47.799 more and more of those women sort of stepping into 0:45:47.840 --> 0:45:50.400 these associate dean ships, you know they're primed for taking 0:45:50.440 --> 0:45:54.840 on these roles. I think it's just the generation and 0:45:54.880 --> 0:45:56.520 the time that we're in that it's all kind of 0:45:56.520 --> 0:46:00.279 coming together. There's still a gap, and even I think 0:46:00.280 --> 0:46:03.239 there's still a bit of a gap. I'm looking it 0:46:03.320 --> 0:46:04.920 up now and I'll know that in a minute when 0:46:04.920 --> 0:46:06.400 I put my finger on it, when it comes to 0:46:06.440 --> 0:46:10.399 salary and some other differences. But it is meaningful. It's 0:46:10.400 --> 0:46:13.880 meaningful in many ways. It's as we reported in our story, 0:46:13.960 --> 0:46:16.240 Dean mal was one of several deans that we reported 0:46:16.280 --> 0:46:19.840 on to the women in that institution in various roles, 0:46:20.000 --> 0:46:23.440 to the women who go to those institutions and study representation, 0:46:23.520 --> 0:46:26.319 as we know, matters, and I think it's a very 0:46:26.360 --> 0:46:29.680 meaningful change. Also, just given the way that these institutions 0:46:29.719 --> 0:46:33.960 are led, there are differences, and so I think that 0:46:34.160 --> 0:46:37.319 it's something that we're going to be happy to keep 0:46:37.360 --> 0:46:39.440 tracking in various ways. 0:46:39.760 --> 0:46:41.600 Well, Dean Mail come in on that point. 0:46:41.640 --> 0:46:44.720 Of course, you're dean of the Villanova School of Business. 0:46:44.760 --> 0:46:46.600 I actually went to school at harber For just two 0:46:46.640 --> 0:46:47.759 miles down the road. 0:46:48.320 --> 0:46:51.200 But you've been with Villanova in various roles since nineteen 0:46:51.280 --> 0:46:52.480 ninety six, I believe. 0:46:52.560 --> 0:46:55.920 So what was the path to finally becoming dean of 0:46:55.960 --> 0:46:56.760 the business school? 0:46:57.560 --> 0:47:01.560 Oh, it's pretty much my entire career. So I started 0:47:02.200 --> 0:47:06.319 as an assistant professor in the economics department really one 0:47:06.360 --> 0:47:11.960 year out of the graduate program, and then became tenured 0:47:12.880 --> 0:47:18.360 at the business school and then took on the department 0:47:18.440 --> 0:47:22.480 chair bro only because my colleagues wanted to hear me 0:47:22.640 --> 0:47:27.880 called chairman mouth. So they waited were for ten years 0:47:27.920 --> 0:47:30.799 for that to happen. When it finally happened, they're like, yeah, 0:47:30.840 --> 0:47:36.400 we want her. I never actually wanted because in academia, 0:47:36.480 --> 0:47:40.200 I think what drew us to this profession, at least 0:47:40.200 --> 0:47:42.920 most of us, I try not to overly generalize, is 0:47:43.320 --> 0:47:45.640 to a degree of freedom. You don't really have a boss. 0:47:45.760 --> 0:47:48.200 I mean, department chare really isn't a boss. It's really 0:47:48.239 --> 0:47:52.879 everybody is your boss. So and also like you're really 0:47:52.920 --> 0:47:56.920 not drawn to the salary, right, and so it's really 0:47:56.960 --> 0:48:00.759 that freedom, it's that purpose. It's that working with young 0:48:00.800 --> 0:48:04.440 people and research, right, those are the things that dow 0:48:04.480 --> 0:48:10.040 you there. So being an administrator isn't in most people's plan. 0:48:10.640 --> 0:48:14.680 So but yeah, dmail, I'm curious how the makeup of 0:48:15.120 --> 0:48:18.680 the school is representative or is not representative from a 0:48:18.719 --> 0:48:22.880 gender perspective of the actual administration. 0:48:23.800 --> 0:48:26.680 In terms of you know, the deans or yeah, in terms. 0:48:26.480 --> 0:48:29.120 Of the deans, for example, and I can only draw 0:48:29.120 --> 0:48:31.000 in my own experience, but when my dad, when my 0:48:31.080 --> 0:48:34.280 dad went to business school in seventies, it was almost 0:48:34.320 --> 0:48:37.680 all men. When I went to business school, you know what, 0:48:37.880 --> 0:48:40.240 eight or ten years ago, it was like fifty to fifty, 0:48:40.560 --> 0:48:43.120 But it didn't seem like the administration was fifty to 0:48:43.160 --> 0:48:44.280 fifty gender. 0:48:44.280 --> 0:48:47.560 Well yeah, so if you count department chairs and the 0:48:47.680 --> 0:48:50.279 deans and associate deans right now, say, out of the 0:48:50.440 --> 0:48:53.879 five department chairs, we only have one female, and she's 0:48:53.920 --> 0:48:57.960 actually the finance department chair, which has sixty percent of 0:48:57.960 --> 0:49:01.319 our students, so very very important job, and she's done 0:49:01.360 --> 0:49:06.319 a fantastic job at that. In terms of the dean's job, 0:49:06.400 --> 0:49:09.160 let's just soom out a little bit for the whole university. 0:49:10.080 --> 0:49:14.879 We have six colleges, right, so six deans, five are 0:49:14.880 --> 0:49:19.520 female at Villanova. So so that's impressive. But if you 0:49:19.560 --> 0:49:24.120 think about history, right, Dmitria is right that we have 0:49:24.200 --> 0:49:27.719 come a long way. It didn't just happen overnight. I'm 0:49:27.760 --> 0:49:31.080 looking at the hallway and see all the prior business 0:49:31.080 --> 0:49:35.000 school deans pictures and I think I'm the second female. 0:49:35.480 --> 0:49:38.960 The previous dean was the first female dean Enjoyce Russell 0:49:39.160 --> 0:49:42.120 and then prior to that all male and mostly priests, 0:49:42.560 --> 0:49:44.560 and so. 0:49:43.719 --> 0:49:44.760 Yes, that's. 0:49:47.000 --> 0:49:47.280 School. 0:49:47.520 --> 0:49:49.359 So it's certainly come a long way. But right now, 0:49:49.719 --> 0:49:53.759 for instance, I have two senior associate deans and one 0:49:53.800 --> 0:49:55.080 male one female. 0:49:55.280 --> 0:49:56.279 So yeah, so. 0:49:56.280 --> 0:49:56.680 There you go. 0:49:56.719 --> 0:49:59.560 And that's the Villanova make up there. 0:49:59.600 --> 0:50:01.160 And you mentioned and that it's not something that you 0:50:01.239 --> 0:50:05.080 necessarily get into for the salary. But Demetria, I want 0:50:05.080 --> 0:50:06.600 to come to you on that point. I mean, you 0:50:06.600 --> 0:50:09.839 think about the data that you have and what does 0:50:09.880 --> 0:50:11.880 that show when it comes to the salaries. 0:50:12.040 --> 0:50:14.719 Yeah, well, I mean we show we've collected data. Again 0:50:14.760 --> 0:50:19.399 it's from AACSB, the association that Tim mentioned, and there's 0:50:19.440 --> 0:50:21.759 still there's still a gap. I mean, the gap in 0:50:21.880 --> 0:50:24.840 salary has been somewhat consistent, it feels like over the 0:50:24.920 --> 0:50:29.000 last five to eight years, which is about women lagging 0:50:29.120 --> 0:50:33.160 men in the dean's roll five to six percent in salary. 0:50:33.320 --> 0:50:36.000 So you know, if you're looking at say an average 0:50:36.040 --> 0:50:41.120 salary for male deans today of about three hundred and 0:50:41.200 --> 0:50:45.440 twenty six thousand versus for females of three hundred and 0:50:45.480 --> 0:50:47.840 thirteen three hundred and fourteen thousand, you know it's not 0:50:47.880 --> 0:50:51.799 a Hugey's not huge, but it's a disparity. And these 0:50:51.800 --> 0:50:54.000 are people again, you know, coming up through the ranks 0:50:54.160 --> 0:50:57.960 long time, with the institution holding important roles. You know, 0:50:58.680 --> 0:51:00.680 sometimes you just scratch your head wonder why they. 0:51:02.080 --> 0:51:04.920 Hold on? Why is college and graduate school so expensive? 0:51:05.560 --> 0:51:06.560 What are the salaries? 0:51:07.760 --> 0:51:12.080 Well, those they are they are big salaries, but they're 0:51:12.400 --> 0:51:15.480 big jobs. Maybe I don't know, demail in. 0:51:15.480 --> 0:51:18.319 Terms of the cost that it's very interesting you asked that. 0:51:18.520 --> 0:51:25.719 I think inflation adjusted economists here confession, it didn't go 0:51:25.960 --> 0:51:31.600 up as much as the sort of headline price tag says, 0:51:31.640 --> 0:51:35.360 because you also have scholarships, right, and so the net 0:51:35.480 --> 0:51:40.399 cost of attending actually in recent years have gone down, 0:51:40.840 --> 0:51:44.279 did not go up. So so that's but if you 0:51:44.320 --> 0:51:46.319 see the price tag, it's like you go to the 0:51:46.360 --> 0:51:50.640 car dealership. No one actually pays that tag price, right, 0:51:50.719 --> 0:51:54.080 You kind of have discounts, and so most universities give 0:51:54.080 --> 0:51:57.319 out discounts based on these and because that information is 0:51:57.480 --> 0:52:01.759 very hard to obtain, so there isn't a transparency to 0:52:01.920 --> 0:52:05.080 how much the actual cost is for the students. So 0:52:05.400 --> 0:52:09.400 most universities, believe it or not, are being pressed squeezed 0:52:09.719 --> 0:52:12.200 right on one hand, you're giving all these discounts, so 0:52:12.480 --> 0:52:15.759 you're not bringing as much tuition, And on the other 0:52:15.840 --> 0:52:19.080 hand you have the rising costs with faculty salary and 0:52:19.160 --> 0:52:19.560 all that. 0:52:19.880 --> 0:52:23.200 Yeah, I wanted to get into some of the challenges 0:52:23.239 --> 0:52:25.040 that schools are facing right now, the effect of the 0:52:25.080 --> 0:52:27.360 Supreme Court decision back in the summer of twenty twenty 0:52:27.400 --> 0:52:32.000 three that bans affirmative action. How's this playing out at 0:52:32.040 --> 0:52:33.440 Villanova and at the Business School. 0:52:34.360 --> 0:52:38.560 Actually we have not finalized the numbers for this year yet, 0:52:38.880 --> 0:52:43.719 but preliminary data seemed to suggest the numbers pretty much stabilized. 0:52:43.760 --> 0:52:46.000 So it didn't have a big impact for a school 0:52:46.040 --> 0:52:50.319 like us, and maybe partly because we still have very 0:52:50.320 --> 0:52:57.440 strong outreach. And also, if you think about it, mit 0:52:57.640 --> 0:53:00.640 I think came out and said that. They came out 0:53:00.680 --> 0:53:03.120 and said that was a big story. The number did 0:53:03.160 --> 0:53:06.840 go down for them, right, And I was thinking, like 0:53:07.160 --> 0:53:09.960 just a few days ago, well, that has to have 0:53:10.040 --> 0:53:13.800 impact on the school right below, Right, So these students 0:53:13.840 --> 0:53:15.120 go somewhere, Where did they go? 0:53:15.520 --> 0:53:15.719 Right? 0:53:15.800 --> 0:53:18.879 Could they be coming to some school like us? And 0:53:19.000 --> 0:53:22.520 maybe that has an impact sort of the next year 0:53:22.600 --> 0:53:27.600 schools And then it trigg goes down to the following year. 0:53:28.080 --> 0:53:31.080 So that's maybe just a sort of an educated guess 0:53:31.160 --> 0:53:33.399 and for us maybe it's a wash. 0:53:34.040 --> 0:53:37.000 Demitra, as I mentioned, you spend a very good part 0:53:37.040 --> 0:53:39.920 of your year focused on the business schools. I'm not 0:53:39.960 --> 0:53:41.960 going to give anything away because I don't know anything, 0:53:42.280 --> 0:53:43.600 but I know this time of year is when the 0:53:43.640 --> 0:53:46.880 rankings usually come out. Can you give us any preview 0:53:46.960 --> 0:53:49.359 of of sort of how you're thinking about things this year? 0:53:50.040 --> 0:53:50.800 Just very briefly. 0:53:51.239 --> 0:53:55.239 I mean, we've been talking to deans at several schools 0:53:55.320 --> 0:53:57.560 and you know, going out there and taking a look 0:53:57.560 --> 0:54:00.440 at what's happening. The rankings come out next week the way. 0:54:00.360 --> 0:54:02.080 September Mark seventeenth. 0:54:02.160 --> 0:54:05.200 They will publish at twelve oh one am. These are 0:54:05.200 --> 0:54:08.239 global rankings. You know, a lot of the themes we've 0:54:08.280 --> 0:54:10.239 been seeing in recent years are picking up and just 0:54:10.280 --> 0:54:11.759 taking on greater importance. 0:54:11.880 --> 0:54:12.680 The AI. 0:54:13.520 --> 0:54:17.120 The theme of AI in both how it's being used 0:54:17.160 --> 0:54:20.799 in the classroom, how it's affecting so many aspects of 0:54:20.800 --> 0:54:23.840 the education, and also in the jobs that the graduates 0:54:23.880 --> 0:54:27.600 are seeking. And then jobs is a big one. This year, 0:54:27.920 --> 0:54:31.480 it's been a challenging year for NBA grads. All right, Well, 0:54:31.480 --> 0:54:32.880 we know that has continued. 0:54:33.000 --> 0:54:34.839 We know we'll get you back on as soon as 0:54:34.840 --> 0:54:36.880 that list does. Come out to meet you. Casinede's Bloomberg 0:54:36.880 --> 0:54:39.520 New Senior Editor when Mount Dean of the Villanova School 0:54:39.520 --> 0:54:41.000 of Business. Here in the studio. 0:54:42.760 --> 0:54:46.600 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Podcast. Listen live 0:54:46.719 --> 0:54:49.920 each weekday starting at two pm Eastern down Applecar Play 0:54:49.920 --> 0:54:52.799 and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business Ad. You can 0:54:52.840 --> 0:54:56.080 also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New 0:54:56.120 --> 0:54:59.760 York station, Just say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:55:00.960 --> 0:55:03.720 From business to politics, there seems to be a growing 0:55:03.800 --> 0:55:06.720 power shift of women in more prominent positions of power, 0:55:07.080 --> 0:55:08.760 and that includes women of color. 0:55:08.880 --> 0:55:10.799 Okay, so remember just a few weeks ago, this is 0:55:10.800 --> 0:55:13.160 back in July agient history when we're talking to presidential 0:55:13.200 --> 0:55:15.040 election here. But that was the day that President Joe 0:55:15.080 --> 0:55:18.560 Biden said he would no longer run for president. That day, 0:55:18.760 --> 0:55:22.040 some of America's most prominent black women across politics, business 0:55:22.040 --> 0:55:25.720 and entertainment joined thousands of their peers to galvanize support 0:55:25.760 --> 0:55:28.680 for Vice President Kamala Harris. They raised one point five 0:55:28.760 --> 0:55:31.680 million dollars in just three hours for her take on 0:55:31.800 --> 0:55:34.520 what this means for Harris and women of color. More broadly, 0:55:34.840 --> 0:55:37.800 Emily Graffeo and I spoke to doctor Kerry Mitchell Brown. 0:55:38.160 --> 0:55:41.320 She's a cultural architect and equity strategist at KMB. 0:55:41.800 --> 0:55:46.480 Often in our space as equity practitioners, we hear that 0:55:46.560 --> 0:55:49.399 you have to give up something in order for other 0:55:49.440 --> 0:55:53.960 people to have space. Inclusive leadership looks exactly like what 0:55:54.160 --> 0:55:59.319 happened there. Joe Biden made an assessment that what's required 0:55:59.440 --> 0:56:02.800 right now, well, he could not provide in his leadership. 0:56:02.880 --> 0:56:08.360 So he transferred his leadership to a very capable black 0:56:08.440 --> 0:56:12.520 woman who has been in the trenches and demonstrated that 0:56:12.560 --> 0:56:16.040 she has a lived experience to lead in this moment 0:56:16.160 --> 0:56:19.799 and beyond and that's what is required. And he did 0:56:19.800 --> 0:56:23.000 that very very well, and it came off as very 0:56:23.040 --> 0:56:27.719 powerful and very transformative. And others can take up that 0:56:27.920 --> 0:56:34.000 practice in moving when their leadership no longer meets the moment. 0:56:34.160 --> 0:56:37.720 What is the next phase of this power shift towards women? 0:56:37.800 --> 0:56:42.720 I guess, how do we keep this momentum going because 0:56:43.000 --> 0:56:46.960 now we do have a black woman kind of front 0:56:47.040 --> 0:56:50.719 and center stage. How do we kind of keep that continuing? 0:56:51.000 --> 0:56:54.160 Yeah, I mean it is a sign for businesses. It 0:56:54.200 --> 0:57:00.879 does really highlight that equity is necessary all of our 0:57:00.920 --> 0:57:07.759 institutions and all of our workforces. Katanji Jackson Brown, I 0:57:07.760 --> 0:57:10.239 mean she's at the pinnacle in her career as well. 0:57:10.280 --> 0:57:13.520 We see Justice Supreme Court Justice. Absolutely, we saw a 0:57:13.560 --> 0:57:19.120 lot of that happening when she was finally confirmed as well. 0:57:19.480 --> 0:57:24.480 It is very very important for these leaders to represent 0:57:24.600 --> 0:57:28.760 our democracy, to represent and reflect what our country looks like. 0:57:28.880 --> 0:57:31.120 You know, I want to go back to Vice President 0:57:31.200 --> 0:57:35.520 Kamala Harris because one thing that we've seen her do, 0:57:35.840 --> 0:57:38.320 or one thing we've seen her not do, is make 0:57:38.400 --> 0:57:42.400 her racial identity part of her pitch to the American people, 0:57:42.440 --> 0:57:46.280 which I think is really interesting. She has not made 0:57:46.280 --> 0:57:48.200 that a big part of her campaign. 0:57:48.840 --> 0:57:50.440 No, she has not made that a big part of 0:57:50.440 --> 0:57:54.240 our campaign. And it's not her only identity either. She's American, 0:57:54.320 --> 0:57:59.400 she's a woman, she is multi racial, and you know, 0:57:59.480 --> 0:58:02.760 she is to represent. When she accepted her nomination speech, 0:58:02.800 --> 0:58:06.880 she represents all people and she talked about doing that 0:58:07.160 --> 0:58:11.520 for her entire career. Of the people right, and most 0:58:11.560 --> 0:58:16.600 women who lead organizations, who lead corporations, who lead labor unions, 0:58:16.880 --> 0:58:19.760 who lead think tanks, they don't lead as I'm a 0:58:19.800 --> 0:58:23.360 black woman president, I'm a black woman leader. We have 0:58:23.520 --> 0:58:27.520 two women currently who are black that lead Fortune five 0:58:27.600 --> 0:58:30.400 hundred companies. They don't lead with I am a black 0:58:30.440 --> 0:58:32.640 woman CEO. No, I am the CEO of the company. 0:58:32.760 --> 0:58:33.720 That's a tiny number. 0:58:33.960 --> 0:58:37.680 It is so tiny, so tiny that is not representative 0:58:37.720 --> 0:58:41.200 of it is not representative of the US population at all. 0:58:41.240 --> 0:58:43.240 There is a lot of work that needs to be 0:58:43.280 --> 0:58:47.640 done there. But my example is still the same that 0:58:48.240 --> 0:58:50.840 they don't lead with. I am a black woman leader, 0:58:50.920 --> 0:58:51.760 I am a leader. 0:58:52.280 --> 0:58:55.760 What groups do you target in your work as a 0:58:55.760 --> 0:58:59.800 cultural architect an equity strategist. Do you kind of focus 0:58:59.880 --> 0:59:04.080 on people early in their careers and advancing them or 0:59:04.760 --> 0:59:07.480 is this more kind of targeting people in the mid 0:59:07.520 --> 0:59:08.800 and more senior levels. 0:59:09.080 --> 0:59:13.440 I really work with organizations who are committed to ensuring 0:59:13.960 --> 0:59:18.960 that they have the right environment for black women to thrive, 0:59:19.000 --> 0:59:21.760 for everyone to thrive, but particularly for black women to thrive. 0:59:21.880 --> 0:59:26.600 So if there is an organization who has an experience 0:59:26.640 --> 0:59:30.360 that they are not able to retain talented black women, 0:59:30.960 --> 0:59:34.240 well we have a conversation to see what's going wrong. 0:59:34.320 --> 0:59:36.680 Because it's not the black women who are leaving who 0:59:36.760 --> 0:59:40.560 are the challenge, what's happening in the environment, what's happening 0:59:40.560 --> 0:59:42.720 in the workplace, what's happening in the cultures, the policies 0:59:42.800 --> 0:59:45.560 or practices that create the conditions where black women do 0:59:45.600 --> 0:59:46.480 not want to stay. 0:59:46.800 --> 0:59:49.440 What are the challenges that these leaders are coming to 0:59:49.480 --> 0:59:51.640 you with when they hire you, when they bring you 0:59:51.720 --> 0:59:54.720 in to do this work. What are the problems they're 0:59:54.720 --> 0:59:55.120 trying to. 0:59:55.080 --> 0:59:57.800 Solve, the problems that they are trying to solve as 0:59:57.800 --> 1:00:01.959 they're trying to operationalize their commitment for racial equity, their 1:00:02.000 --> 1:00:07.080 commitments that they are making for diversity. We all know 1:00:08.080 --> 1:00:12.360 that companies with diverse teams are thirty five percent more 1:00:12.640 --> 1:00:18.680 productive in revenue, in impact in the bottom line overall 1:00:18.760 --> 1:00:21.320 than companies whose teams are not diverse. 1:00:22.080 --> 1:00:25.520 Okay, So I want to bring this up because in 1:00:25.600 --> 1:00:31.200 recent months, we've seen Low's, Harley Davidson, Tractor Supply, Dear 1:00:31.760 --> 1:00:35.480 Brown Foreman all come out and say they're pulling back 1:00:35.520 --> 1:00:39.080 from pledges to commit to diversity, equity and inclusion programs. 1:00:39.120 --> 1:00:41.680 There's a real pushback to DEI right now. 1:00:41.760 --> 1:00:44.440 There is a tremendous pushback to d E and I 1:00:44.800 --> 1:00:48.120 right now. And one would think where they committed in 1:00:48.160 --> 1:00:51.480 the first place. After George Floyd twenty twenty, there was 1:00:51.600 --> 1:00:54.080 a lot of commitments. No company wanted to be on 1:00:54.120 --> 1:00:56.720 the wrong side of I'm not going to commit to this. 1:00:57.600 --> 1:00:59.800 We saw a lot of companies pulling back with this 1:01:00.000 --> 1:01:05.720 Supreme Court rulings coming out of the Fearless Fund and 1:01:05.800 --> 1:01:10.360 the risk of litigation. We have witnessed some organizations softening 1:01:10.400 --> 1:01:13.640 their language around their commitments on their website, but continuing 1:01:13.680 --> 1:01:18.160 to move forward, you know, with their programming, changing the 1:01:18.160 --> 1:01:22.880 words and you know, changing the actions, you know, the 1:01:23.080 --> 1:01:27.680 two separate things. But yeah, I will question where they 1:01:27.800 --> 1:01:29.200 serious about it in the first place. 1:01:29.320 --> 1:01:30.840 Ten seconds permanent shift? 1:01:30.920 --> 1:01:31.400 Is this it? 1:01:31.480 --> 1:01:33.800 Or these companies circle back in the coming years. 1:01:34.400 --> 1:01:37.240 They need to circle back. It's at their own peril 1:01:37.240 --> 1:01:37.720 if they don't. 1:01:38.000 --> 1:01:40.520 Doctor Kerry Mitchell Brown, thanks so much for joining us. 1:01:40.840 --> 1:01:43.560 Thank you for protect and Equity Strategist joining us here 1:01:43.800 --> 1:01:45.160 in the Bloomberg's studio. 1:01:50.920 --> 1:01:54.440 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 1:01:54.480 --> 1:01:57.720 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm. Easter Listen 1:01:57.760 --> 1:01:59.920 on Apple card Play and then brought auto with a 1:02:00.000 --> 1:02:03.600 Bloomberg Business act or wanted us live on YouTube? 1:02:04.600 --> 1:02:06.600 All right, let me throw out one metric. I guess 1:02:06.600 --> 1:02:08.680 I kind of got to do this. The global sportswear 1:02:08.760 --> 1:02:11.320 market size valued at nearly four hundred and thirteen billion 1:02:11.360 --> 1:02:14.520 dollars in twenty twenty two, estimated to reach nearly seven 1:02:14.600 --> 1:02:18.000 hundred forty nine billion by twenty thirty one. And listen, 1:02:18.120 --> 1:02:19.880 there's a lot of players in it and looking to 1:02:19.920 --> 1:02:22.400 take a share of it. Is a partnership. Our next 1:02:22.440 --> 1:02:24.640 two guests, both with brands that are very well known 1:02:25.040 --> 1:02:27.960 now with a combined brand known as Greatness Wins. 1:02:27.960 --> 1:02:29.920 So let's get to the interview with more joining us 1:02:29.920 --> 1:02:32.040 here in the studio. The founder of Vuntucket, who came 1:02:32.120 --> 1:02:34.280 up with the idea for his casual shirts while working 1:02:34.280 --> 1:02:37.840 at GE Healthcare. Chris Ricobono back with us, also with US, 1:02:37.840 --> 1:02:40.600 Hall of Fame shortstop and five time World Series champion 1:02:40.800 --> 1:02:42.880 with the New York Yankees. Also an e commerce investor 1:02:42.920 --> 1:02:48.280 to Derek Jeter, both here in the Bloomberg BusinessWeek studio. Okay, guys, 1:02:48.280 --> 1:02:52.520 first up, we want to know how you guys got together. 1:02:52.520 --> 1:02:54.520 How did this come together? Who called who, who had 1:02:54.520 --> 1:02:56.600 the idea for who to get involved? How did it 1:02:56.640 --> 1:02:57.000 come out? 1:02:57.080 --> 1:02:59.600 That's a good question. You start with super version comes out. 1:03:01.400 --> 1:03:02.800 I was going to say Derek reached out to me, 1:03:02.880 --> 1:03:05.520 but that's not how it worked. So I over the pandemic. 1:03:05.960 --> 1:03:08.240 I was looking to solve another problem in the fashion industry, 1:03:08.240 --> 1:03:12.040 and I thought about athletic apparel and it didn't exist 1:03:12.120 --> 1:03:14.120 for me. Something that had a great fit but also 1:03:14.200 --> 1:03:17.560 had performance first in mind. So I came up with 1:03:17.640 --> 1:03:19.760 this concept in this idea, but now I wanted a 1:03:19.800 --> 1:03:23.000 few athletes behind me. And at the time, I think 1:03:23.040 --> 1:03:25.240 Derek might have still had a contract with Nike or 1:03:25.240 --> 1:03:27.240 it was winding down, and I didn't think that I 1:03:27.240 --> 1:03:28.160 could get to him or. 1:03:28.080 --> 1:03:28.920 That he'd be interested. 1:03:29.920 --> 1:03:32.880 But after a year of bothering him and his agents, 1:03:34.080 --> 1:03:36.360 he actually called me and said, Chris, I'm just not 1:03:36.440 --> 1:03:39.000 that interested and excited in this. But I said, he 1:03:39.040 --> 1:03:41.160 can't get off say he can't get off the phone, Derek, 1:03:41.200 --> 1:03:43.680 how can I get you excited? So we talked for 1:03:43.720 --> 1:03:46.040 a while after that, and we kind of came together 1:03:46.200 --> 1:03:48.520 with both of our visions. You know, I'm apparel guy, 1:03:48.600 --> 1:03:50.760 that's the way I think about it. Derek's was a 1:03:51.400 --> 1:03:54.600 successful entrepreneur but also very successful, as you know, a 1:03:54.680 --> 1:03:56.800 Nike guy, So I knew that he had a lot 1:03:56.800 --> 1:03:58.600 of insight that I didn't have, and he shared it 1:03:58.640 --> 1:04:00.120 with me, and we launched a brand about he and 1:04:00.160 --> 1:04:01.560 a half ago and we're having great success. 1:04:01.640 --> 1:04:03.880 Okay, you weren't excited and then you became excited. How 1:04:03.920 --> 1:04:05.600 that happened? How did you make that turn? 1:04:05.720 --> 1:04:08.960 Well? I think you know, first and foremost getting to 1:04:08.960 --> 1:04:12.720 know Chris, we talked about the idea. I've had relationships 1:04:12.720 --> 1:04:15.840 with athletic brands throughout my career and great relationships and 1:04:15.880 --> 1:04:18.320 I still do today. And you know, when I was 1:04:18.760 --> 1:04:20.760 first speaking to Chris, I was like, well, first of all, 1:04:20.800 --> 1:04:23.360 you know, this is a crowded space. It's not as 1:04:23.640 --> 1:04:26.680 easy to attack this space, and it's going to take 1:04:26.720 --> 1:04:28.880 some time and it's going to take a lot of energy. 1:04:28.920 --> 1:04:32.960 And I wouldn't say I wasn't excited, but I when 1:04:33.000 --> 1:04:34.880 I do something, I'm all in and if I'm not 1:04:35.600 --> 1:04:37.720 all in, I'm just not going to do it. And 1:04:37.800 --> 1:04:40.320 at that point when we were having the discussion, I said, 1:04:40.360 --> 1:04:42.240 you know, I don't think now is the time. And 1:04:42.280 --> 1:04:45.520 then we actually got together, we had a chance to 1:04:45.560 --> 1:04:48.160 look and feel and touch the product, and that started 1:04:48.200 --> 1:04:51.800 getting me very very excited about it. So I guess 1:04:51.880 --> 1:04:53.480 that's the best way to put it. In our short 1:04:53.560 --> 1:04:54.320 period of time. 1:04:54.520 --> 1:04:57.640 You do, though, Derek, probably get a lot of investment pitches, 1:04:57.720 --> 1:05:00.400 not just in the apparel world, but yeah, no question, 1:05:00.560 --> 1:05:03.680 from lots of different entrepreneurs who want your involvement. What 1:05:03.800 --> 1:05:06.960 was it specifically about this one with Chris with Untucket 1:05:07.360 --> 1:05:08.400 that really caught your eye. 1:05:08.440 --> 1:05:09.720 I think it's you got to get to know the 1:05:09.760 --> 1:05:12.040 people any business that you're in the same thing, when 1:05:12.080 --> 1:05:13.680 you're on a team on the field, you have to 1:05:13.680 --> 1:05:16.440 have the right people on the side. 1:05:16.680 --> 1:05:17.320 Yeah. 1:05:17.680 --> 1:05:19.280 I was going to say that, but you didn't give 1:05:19.320 --> 1:05:22.480 me enough time say that. And you know, I just 1:05:22.520 --> 1:05:24.680 found Chris to be very very passionate about it. You 1:05:24.720 --> 1:05:27.800 can't fake passion. You either are you aren't. And you know, 1:05:27.920 --> 1:05:30.040 even when I told him that I wasn't interested, he 1:05:30.160 --> 1:05:32.680 kept calling and we kept having the conversation, and I 1:05:32.760 --> 1:05:34.880 knew when you're if you're going to be successful, you 1:05:34.920 --> 1:05:36.439 need those types of people on your side. 1:05:36.520 --> 1:05:38.160 I always think about that. I remember talking to a 1:05:38.160 --> 1:05:39.919 top m and a banker and he's like, the only 1:05:39.920 --> 1:05:41.840 way you get deals done is this. CEOs have to 1:05:41.920 --> 1:05:43.360 like each other, and that's how you get things come 1:05:43.400 --> 1:05:45.720 to the table. Would you say no to a great 1:05:45.760 --> 1:05:47.640 deal because you didn't like somebody. 1:05:48.000 --> 1:05:48.800 Oh, without a doubt. 1:05:48.800 --> 1:05:50.760 I mean you end up working a lot. It's funny 1:05:51.160 --> 1:05:53.920 when Derek said that he wanted to be more involved 1:05:53.960 --> 1:05:55.880 than he when he goes all in. I was thinking 1:05:55.880 --> 1:05:57.640 he was just doing that as an equity played to 1:05:57.680 --> 1:05:59.840 get some more equity. Yeah, that he actually wanted to 1:05:59.880 --> 1:06:02.520 be and Derek's liked. I mean, he wants to talk 1:06:02.520 --> 1:06:04.280 about everything every decision. 1:06:03.960 --> 1:06:05.520 And you want somebody who's I want. 1:06:05.400 --> 1:06:07.480 Someone that yes, because I don't know everything and I 1:06:07.520 --> 1:06:09.840 definitely don't know everything in the athletic apparel space. So 1:06:10.120 --> 1:06:11.440 it's been a this is. 1:06:11.480 --> 1:06:14.720 Recorded, right, I'm gonna play that. We're gonna play that back. 1:06:14.880 --> 1:06:17.440 You can do that, you can you can loop it, yeah, exactly. 1:06:17.560 --> 1:06:19.400 Well, the same thing for you, I mean, Derek, when 1:06:19.440 --> 1:06:21.640 you get involved in something, how you know, we asked 1:06:21.640 --> 1:06:24.360 about what made this interesting, but in general, how involved 1:06:24.360 --> 1:06:26.080 do you want to be? I mean how much do 1:06:26.080 --> 1:06:28.520 you have to love the brand that you hook up with? 1:06:28.760 --> 1:06:30.960 You have to be involved. I mean otherwise you're just 1:06:31.840 --> 1:06:34.000 given your money and you're hoping someone else runs with 1:06:34.040 --> 1:06:36.840 it and makes you more. But when you're passionate about something, 1:06:36.840 --> 1:06:38.600 when you put in the time, you put in the effort. 1:06:38.600 --> 1:06:40.800 I think the best thing to say about us is 1:06:40.840 --> 1:06:44.040 we disagree probably more than we agree, and I think 1:06:44.080 --> 1:06:46.120 that's a good thing. I mean, you don't want people 1:06:46.120 --> 1:06:48.600 that always think the same as you, Otherwise you're never 1:06:48.640 --> 1:06:50.800 going to make improvements. You're never going to make progress. 1:06:50.960 --> 1:06:52.320 Is it hard to say no to? 1:06:52.520 --> 1:06:52.800 Derek? 1:06:52.880 --> 1:06:53.120 Though? 1:06:53.560 --> 1:06:56.400 We just talked with the leadership We are author of 1:06:56.400 --> 1:06:59.080 a leadership book, and they talked about CEOs who once 1:06:59.080 --> 1:07:01.200 they get to the top, they around themselves with people 1:07:01.400 --> 1:07:03.040 who say who don't say no. 1:07:03.760 --> 1:07:06.040 Listen, I rolled the dice right from the beginning, and 1:07:06.120 --> 1:07:08.600 we went after each other a little bit. But like 1:07:08.640 --> 1:07:11.200 you said it, it's the best way to go about it. 1:07:11.240 --> 1:07:12.480 Like you want to leave at the end of the 1:07:12.560 --> 1:07:15.080 day and have people go against your views, because if 1:07:15.120 --> 1:07:17.320 they're agreeing with you, you're not going to always do the 1:07:17.400 --> 1:07:19.560 right thing. So I thought that was a great I 1:07:19.600 --> 1:07:22.080 wondered if he was one to because sorry, if he 1:07:22.160 --> 1:07:24.240 was going to want to continue a relationship a few times, 1:07:24.560 --> 1:07:26.960 but it really came together and now now we're on 1:07:27.000 --> 1:07:29.360 the same page and things are going really well for us. 1:07:29.640 --> 1:07:32.160 Well I do wonder when does it get a little tricky, 1:07:32.240 --> 1:07:35.880 Like any partnership, whether it's a marriage, whether it's working relationships, 1:07:35.880 --> 1:07:38.320 whether it's business relationships, there's always tough times. 1:07:38.560 --> 1:07:40.040 What are some of those looking at me? 1:07:40.240 --> 1:07:42.240 Yeah? I was about to say, just keep going. You 1:07:42.320 --> 1:07:43.600 want to you answer that question? 1:07:44.760 --> 1:07:46.600 No, But I really do feel like a little bit 1:07:46.640 --> 1:07:49.040 of debate or a little bit of arguing, like gets 1:07:49.080 --> 1:07:50.120 you to a better place. 1:07:50.280 --> 1:07:51.840 I think it does. You have to have a difference 1:07:51.840 --> 1:07:55.480 of opinion, like I said, I do like you tim Otherwise, 1:07:55.560 --> 1:07:57.240 like I said, you're not going to make any any 1:07:57.320 --> 1:08:01.040 progress moving forward. And we probably we disagree more than 1:08:01.080 --> 1:08:03.960 we agree, but we do it respectfully. And you know, 1:08:04.000 --> 1:08:06.280 there are some things that I know he's an expert. 1:08:06.280 --> 1:08:09.400 It's impossible to be an expert everything, right. It surrounds 1:08:09.440 --> 1:08:12.320 your people that are much more intelligent in different fields. 1:08:12.320 --> 1:08:14.560 And you know, Chris obviously has a lot of experience 1:08:14.840 --> 1:08:17.720 in the retail space, especially I have experience when it 1:08:17.720 --> 1:08:21.280 comes to athletic brands. So it's okay for us to disagree. 1:08:21.520 --> 1:08:23.840 So Chris, let's go there because this is a really 1:08:23.840 --> 1:08:26.120 crowded space. You mentioned Nike, but I mean, if you 1:08:26.120 --> 1:08:28.479 think about upstarts like Viory Rhone. Then there are the 1:08:28.479 --> 1:08:32.280 big players like Nike, Adidas and the like. How do 1:08:32.360 --> 1:08:35.160 you carve out a place for you specifically? 1:08:35.720 --> 1:08:38.439 So it's funny, just like with on Tucket, I really 1:08:38.520 --> 1:08:40.559 needed this product. Then you might ask why. You know 1:08:40.600 --> 1:08:42.880 there's plenty of athletic brands and athlesier brands. For me, 1:08:43.000 --> 1:08:45.920 the athletic brands that existed, the quality wasn't there, the 1:08:45.960 --> 1:08:49.680 consistency of fit wasn't there. They were designed for performance, 1:08:49.680 --> 1:08:52.679 but they didn't have that modern fit. The athleisure brands 1:08:52.720 --> 1:08:56.160 have an incredible fit, very high quality fabrics, but not 1:08:56.360 --> 1:08:59.519 designed with performance first in mind. So I wanted a 1:08:59.600 --> 1:09:02.559 really high end athletic brand that had a great fit 1:09:02.680 --> 1:09:05.480 but also was meant to work out and would withstand 1:09:05.560 --> 1:09:08.720 being washed, not pilling. Something that all athletes, not just 1:09:08.720 --> 1:09:12.120 professional athletes, could use all the time, and it's not inexpensive, 1:09:12.120 --> 1:09:13.759 so you want it to last for a long time. 1:09:14.080 --> 1:09:17.360 And I think that that's where we are differentiate from 1:09:17.360 --> 1:09:19.840 these other brands. We're not athleisure, We're not athletic. We're 1:09:19.920 --> 1:09:21.880 kind of a blend of both, if that makes sense. 1:09:21.880 --> 1:09:23.720 I've got yoga pants on that are pilling a little bit, 1:09:23.760 --> 1:09:25.479 so I totally get you. What's the kind of what's 1:09:25.479 --> 1:09:28.439 the growth trajectory? Tell me what we can tell we're Bloomberg. 1:09:28.479 --> 1:09:31.120 We love numbers, you know that. What's the growth on this? 1:09:31.520 --> 1:09:33.360 Well, we need you to go buy some pants. We 1:09:33.479 --> 1:09:36.320 just said, so get right on it to help it's out. 1:09:36.360 --> 1:09:38.240 But I think for us, I'll let Chris follow up 1:09:38.280 --> 1:09:40.000 on it. I think what we want to show as 1:09:40.000 --> 1:09:41.800 a brand, this is only our second year. We want 1:09:41.840 --> 1:09:44.559 to show progress. You know sometimes when you when when 1:09:44.560 --> 1:09:47.960 you're building a company, a startup company, you want success 1:09:48.040 --> 1:09:50.640 right away to understand you're you're a startup company for 1:09:50.680 --> 1:09:52.519 I think they say ten years. I mean it's a 1:09:52.560 --> 1:09:55.200 long long time. So we want to show some steady progression. 1:09:55.479 --> 1:09:56.679 I'll let Chris get in the numbers. 1:09:56.720 --> 1:09:56.920 Yeah. 1:09:57.120 --> 1:09:58.720 Wait, so will it be ten years before you really 1:09:58.720 --> 1:09:59.479 feel like it's there? 1:09:59.760 --> 1:10:02.240 No how much you buy? 1:10:02.479 --> 1:10:06.400 No, I mean there is so much competition. You want 1:10:06.439 --> 1:10:08.759 to just stay relevant. You want to make a great product. 1:10:08.760 --> 1:10:10.160 That's the first thing. You got to make a great product, 1:10:10.200 --> 1:10:11.800 you need your repeats to be there, which they are 1:10:11.840 --> 1:10:14.000 for us. The other thing that's really exciting with us 1:10:14.120 --> 1:10:16.280 is not just you have the e comm then eventually stores, 1:10:16.280 --> 1:10:18.360 which is what I did with on Tucket. We have 1:10:18.400 --> 1:10:21.360 a great wholesale business we're building at Greatness Wins. We 1:10:21.400 --> 1:10:23.960 have a golf business. We'll be in eighty clubs. We 1:10:23.960 --> 1:10:26.320 were in eighty clubs this spring. We have a bookstore business. 1:10:26.560 --> 1:10:29.200 Derek just wore a Michigan sweatshirt on his honore captain 1:10:29.200 --> 1:10:32.480 in Michigan this weekend. We have a new dance relationship 1:10:32.479 --> 1:10:34.000 with Misty Copeland, who's our women. 1:10:34.160 --> 1:10:36.040 Foundary, women who do a little bit of shopping. 1:10:36.240 --> 1:10:39.200 So we have something that will be announcing soon. That's exciting. 1:10:39.560 --> 1:10:42.040 So I'm very happy with earlier are. People love the product, 1:10:42.160 --> 1:10:44.559 they love the quality, and we're just getting going, but 1:10:44.680 --> 1:10:45.719 very excited for the future. 1:10:45.880 --> 1:10:47.559 All Right, We're going to just shift a little bit 1:10:47.600 --> 1:10:49.760 because I am curious, Derek, are you looking for any 1:10:49.760 --> 1:10:54.160 other investments, you know, in sports beyond baseball or maybe 1:10:54.200 --> 1:10:55.960 an MLB team or anything. 1:10:56.040 --> 1:10:57.640 No, I've been down that path. No, I'm going to 1:10:57.680 --> 1:10:58.960 take a break from that. I spent a lot of 1:10:58.960 --> 1:11:01.519 time with my four kids who are seven and under. 1:11:01.640 --> 1:11:04.280 So it's a full time job, especially when you're talking 1:11:04.280 --> 1:11:08.000 about Major League Baseball ownership. So at this particular point, 1:11:08.040 --> 1:11:09.080 I think I have my hands full. 1:11:09.160 --> 1:11:10.880 So you know whether, yeah, well when you say take 1:11:10.880 --> 1:11:12.759 a break, are you ruling it out for the future 1:11:12.840 --> 1:11:13.519 or do you want to get back? 1:11:13.520 --> 1:11:16.920 And I learned a long time ago never say never yeah, 1:11:16.960 --> 1:11:18.760 because you never know. I as just said it three 1:11:18.800 --> 1:11:20.640 times in a row. But you don't know where the 1:11:20.680 --> 1:11:22.959 future is going to lead you. But at this particular 1:11:23.000 --> 1:11:23.559 point now. 1:11:23.640 --> 1:11:25.519 I do also wonder the two of you, like when 1:11:25.560 --> 1:11:30.880 you think about either ath leisure or athletic appareled you know, 1:11:30.920 --> 1:11:33.080 companies that you look at that you admire or leaders 1:11:33.120 --> 1:11:35.120 you admire. Let me ask you, Chris first, like, is 1:11:35.120 --> 1:11:37.760 there somebody that you look at and say that's who 1:11:37.800 --> 1:11:39.200 I kind of get some cues from. 1:11:39.320 --> 1:11:42.479 Or I mean we always talk about Nike and the 1:11:42.560 --> 1:11:45.200 Jordan brand. Those are the greatest, you know, probably the 1:11:45.200 --> 1:11:48.599 greatest brand maybe ever, so well, you know, you want 1:11:48.600 --> 1:11:50.439 to be them, but if you're half half of what 1:11:50.479 --> 1:11:52.960 they become, you're very successful. And I think the ath 1:11:53.000 --> 1:11:55.439 leisure brands are great too. I mean I won't name 1:11:55.479 --> 1:11:59.639 them because you know, but I think there's a lot 1:11:59.640 --> 1:12:03.680 of eight brands these days, so we're just trying to differentiate. 1:12:03.720 --> 1:12:05.840 Give a reason you know why you might need our 1:12:05.880 --> 1:12:08.800 product versus those products, and yeah, hopefully it works. 1:12:09.000 --> 1:12:11.240 Leader you look at your smiling. 1:12:11.080 --> 1:12:14.320 No, there's there's a lot, you know, it's one that 1:12:14.400 --> 1:12:17.439 comes to mind, he said, Jordan Brand. You know MJ's 1:12:17.439 --> 1:12:19.400 been like a big brother than me. And I think 1:12:19.439 --> 1:12:21.599 you know, I have young kids now, and you want 1:12:21.600 --> 1:12:23.960 them to choose their career path and find someone that 1:12:24.000 --> 1:12:25.960 they can look up to. You want them to see 1:12:26.000 --> 1:12:28.880 someone who's been successful. And you know, you talk about 1:12:28.880 --> 1:12:31.200 Michael on what he was able to accomplish on the 1:12:31.240 --> 1:12:34.200 basketball court, but I think you look at athletes post 1:12:34.280 --> 1:12:36.880 playing career. He's up there at the top what he's 1:12:36.880 --> 1:12:39.880 been able to accomplish from a business standpoint. So he's 1:12:39.920 --> 1:12:42.080 someone that I look to and go to for advice. 1:12:42.320 --> 1:12:45.320 All Right, you're going to go there, you go world serious, 1:12:45.600 --> 1:12:47.200 I know I have to do this. I have to 1:12:47.200 --> 1:12:48.920 do this, all right. So you're going to be in 1:12:48.920 --> 1:12:49.479 the booth. 1:12:49.320 --> 1:12:50.800 Right I am? Yes? Yeah? 1:12:50.920 --> 1:12:53.280 Who do you can you think about? Who might be there? 1:12:54.040 --> 1:12:56.519 It depends, you know, I'm not trying to skirt the question. 1:12:56.600 --> 1:12:59.719 I'm really not. But a lot of it is matchups. Okay, 1:13:00.160 --> 1:13:01.960 in a couple of weeks because you know, some teams 1:13:02.000 --> 1:13:04.360 I know during my careers to play Anaheim Angels all 1:13:04.360 --> 1:13:06.640 the time, we just couldn't beat them. And you know, 1:13:06.720 --> 1:13:08.400 finally we broke through and we were able to win 1:13:08.400 --> 1:13:10.479 in two thousand and nine. But it all comes down 1:13:10.520 --> 1:13:12.280 to matchups. So there's some good teams out there. 1:13:12.360 --> 1:13:14.360 Chris, you talk baseball, and I'm curious what you might 1:13:14.400 --> 1:13:16.040 think for the World Series. 1:13:16.320 --> 1:13:21.559 This knows nothing about base are no do you know baseball? 1:13:22.200 --> 1:13:25.439 I mean I don't did a deal with I don't 1:13:25.479 --> 1:13:28.920 bother Derek with it, but I'm a Yankees fan. We'll 1:13:28.920 --> 1:13:30.679 see it's they don't seem to be able to perform 1:13:30.680 --> 1:13:33.559 in the playoffs for the last what is it fifteen 1:13:33.640 --> 1:13:34.200 years now. 1:13:38.160 --> 1:13:42.120 We'll discuss it on podcast quay listen, guys, got about 1:13:42.120 --> 1:13:45.240 forty seconds left here real quickly in I don't know, 1:13:45.280 --> 1:13:47.839 a year from now, what's the conversation around your company. 1:13:48.360 --> 1:13:50.080 I think we'll start to look at stores. I mean 1:13:50.120 --> 1:13:52.760 I love stores. Not many people do in retail. We 1:13:52.800 --> 1:13:54.719 have niney of them on Tucket and we're opening more. 1:13:55.000 --> 1:13:57.120 I think it's really important for the male shoppers. So 1:13:57.160 --> 1:13:58.679 I think we'll look at that and we'll look at 1:13:59.080 --> 1:14:02.639 continued growth in these different areas that we discuss, bookstores, golf, 1:14:02.680 --> 1:14:04.200 e commerce. So it's very exciting. 1:14:04.320 --> 1:14:06.360 Same thing for you, Derek, in terms of greatness, wins 1:14:06.360 --> 1:14:07.400 and a year from now, what are we gonna be 1:14:07.439 --> 1:14:07.840 talking about. 1:14:07.960 --> 1:14:09.720 Oh, I think it's all awareness. You want people to 1:14:09.720 --> 1:14:11.400 be aware. You want to walk around the streets and 1:14:11.439 --> 1:14:13.680 see people wearing it. And I'm very confident in the 1:14:13.680 --> 1:14:16.280 fact that someone buys our product and they wear it, 1:14:16.320 --> 1:14:17.879 they'll be happy with it and they return. 1:14:17.680 --> 1:14:18.920 As a customer and no pilling. 1:14:18.920 --> 1:14:23.760 You promise, Well, you got to tell me I got. 1:14:24.640 --> 1:14:28.639 Derek j Derek Jeter, of course, Chris Ricobono, you guys 1:14:28.640 --> 1:14:30.080 got me FLLL mixed. 1:14:32.040 --> 1:14:35.559 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 1:14:35.600 --> 1:14:38.840 Live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern Listen 1:14:38.880 --> 1:14:41.040 on Apple, car Play and and brout Auto with a 1:14:41.080 --> 1:14:44.080 Bloomberg Business app, or wants us live on YouTube. 1:14:45.360 --> 1:14:48.800 Well, our next guest has thirty years of experience at 1:14:48.840 --> 1:14:52.960 McKinsey and Company, focusing on projects related to organizational change 1:14:53.040 --> 1:14:56.600 in companies that range from high tech to banking, healthcare, 1:14:56.760 --> 1:15:00.759 industrial and more. He's a senior partner McKenzie and senior 1:15:00.920 --> 1:15:05.000 partner at McKinsey Company, Codean of the CEO leadership program 1:15:05.160 --> 1:15:07.680 the Bower Forum. He's also got a brand new book out. 1:15:07.880 --> 1:15:12.160 It's called The Journey of Leadership, How CEOs Learned to 1:15:12.240 --> 1:15:17.160 Lead from the Inside Out, Rameshering of Austin, Welcome to 1:15:17.160 --> 1:15:18.519 Bloomberg BusinessWeek. How are you. 1:15:18.840 --> 1:15:20.120 I'm good, Thank you for having me. 1:15:20.400 --> 1:15:22.719 It's good to have you with us. My first question 1:15:22.880 --> 1:15:26.360 is very basic. There's four co authors on this book. 1:15:26.520 --> 1:15:28.120 How do you write a book with three other people? 1:15:29.840 --> 1:15:31.680 It's actually a fantastic experience. 1:15:32.760 --> 1:15:36.320 I've learned a lot from my co authors, Dana, Ham, 1:15:36.360 --> 1:15:40.519 Swanna and Kirk and you know, obviously some of us 1:15:40.520 --> 1:15:43.759 took the lead on different chapters, but bringing the different 1:15:43.760 --> 1:15:48.080 perspectives together was a fantastic learning experience for us. 1:15:48.360 --> 1:15:50.240 All right, So which chapters did you write? 1:15:50.439 --> 1:15:50.519 So? 1:15:50.560 --> 1:15:53.559 I wrote the chapter on humility, that's one of our 1:15:53.600 --> 1:15:57.439 first chapters. I wrote the chapter on vulnerability. I wrote 1:15:57.479 --> 1:15:59.960 the chapter on control as an illusion. Happy to talk 1:16:00.080 --> 1:16:04.599 about that. But I'm also as Codean of the Bower Forum, 1:16:04.600 --> 1:16:07.920 I've been in the journey of many many CEOs have 1:16:07.960 --> 1:16:10.720 gone through the program, more than five hundred CEOs have 1:16:10.760 --> 1:16:13.680 gone through it, so I have a good view of 1:16:13.720 --> 1:16:14.560 all the chapters. 1:16:14.720 --> 1:16:16.519 How many leaders come to you, guys, and they're not 1:16:16.520 --> 1:16:18.960 great leaders to begin but. 1:16:19.040 --> 1:16:20.800 By the time you've become a leader in that sense 1:16:20.840 --> 1:16:23.720 and you're like a leader enough to hire McKinsey. Right, 1:16:24.200 --> 1:16:25.880 you've obviously done somethings right. 1:16:26.240 --> 1:16:28.200 You have done somethings right, and I think you've got 1:16:28.240 --> 1:16:32.200 a good achievement orientation. You've accomplished something, but yet you 1:16:32.520 --> 1:16:35.400 want to learn. So people come to the Bower Forum. 1:16:35.479 --> 1:16:38.840 People come to our leadership programs because they at least 1:16:38.880 --> 1:16:41.280 have that initial sense of wanting to learn. 1:16:41.320 --> 1:16:44.000 So there is some self selection in that process. 1:16:44.160 --> 1:16:47.280 Okay, So talk a little bit about just the experience 1:16:47.360 --> 1:16:52.200 of sort of understanding what makes a leader successful. Oftentimes 1:16:52.240 --> 1:16:56.000 we talk to CEOs of companies, especially honestly, especially this 1:16:56.040 --> 1:16:58.639 time of year because it's like book season. Yeah, the CEOs, 1:16:58.640 --> 1:17:01.720 they spend three decades at a company. Oftentimes, you know, 1:17:01.760 --> 1:17:03.600 the folks who are writing books about leadership are the 1:17:03.600 --> 1:17:07.000 ones who are are retired from leading these companies, not 1:17:07.040 --> 1:17:11.000 necessarily day to day working with other CEOs. So talk 1:17:11.000 --> 1:17:12.560 a little bit about bringing that perspective. 1:17:12.760 --> 1:17:15.840 Yeah, you know, we have stories of both CEOs of 1:17:15.960 --> 1:17:19.400 retired and we have stories of CEOs are still active. 1:17:19.600 --> 1:17:21.680 And I think what we found is, and this is 1:17:21.720 --> 1:17:24.559 the concept of inside out leadership that we've described in 1:17:24.600 --> 1:17:28.200 the book. Successful leaders, especially in a world that is 1:17:28.280 --> 1:17:32.880 changing so fast with complex geopolitics and technology disruptions, they 1:17:32.880 --> 1:17:35.679 think a lot about who they are, what is their purpose, 1:17:36.240 --> 1:17:40.680 and use that to inspire their teams, inspire organizations. So 1:17:41.320 --> 1:17:44.160 our big learning was that the model of the imperial 1:17:44.240 --> 1:17:48.519 CEO no longer exists and use that to consciously inspire 1:17:48.560 --> 1:17:51.040 their teams and their institutions they're leading. 1:17:51.240 --> 1:17:54.200 What about inspiring just by paying really good wages and 1:17:54.240 --> 1:17:58.360 giving benefits and making you know, I just think about 1:17:58.439 --> 1:18:00.920 for workers. You know, it's interesting coming off the debate, right, 1:18:00.960 --> 1:18:03.880 it's like the economy, the economy, the economy, and even 1:18:03.920 --> 1:18:06.080 though wages have gone up, there are workers out there 1:18:06.320 --> 1:18:09.040 who don't feel like they are participating, especially when it 1:18:09.040 --> 1:18:12.880 comes to publicly held companies, in the fortunes of those companies. 1:18:14.280 --> 1:18:17.759 So what about something as simple as that. I understand 1:18:17.760 --> 1:18:21.920 they're like kind of raw raw, you know, inspiring your team, 1:18:22.439 --> 1:18:25.719 But it's hard I think for some folks who say, okay, great, 1:18:25.760 --> 1:18:29.479 I've got to inspiring leader, but I'm having trouble because 1:18:29.479 --> 1:18:31.080 my wages haven't gone up as much. 1:18:31.320 --> 1:18:32.120 You're absolutely right. 1:18:32.160 --> 1:18:35.040 I think these leaders think about stakeholders and have to 1:18:35.040 --> 1:18:39.599 think about all stakeholders, their employees, their team, society, more broadly, 1:18:39.680 --> 1:18:42.639 their customers. I'll give you an example of Frank Desuza, 1:18:42.720 --> 1:18:45.680 who was, you know, one of the co founders of Cognizant, 1:18:46.479 --> 1:18:48.479 you know, Indian It and BPO company. 1:18:48.560 --> 1:18:49.320 Taught a lot. 1:18:49.160 --> 1:18:52.720 About even if a frontline software programmer reached out to him, 1:18:52.760 --> 1:18:56.120 he would always, you know, connect with them, respond to them. 1:18:56.640 --> 1:18:59.639 And so in many of these sectors, especially the knowledge 1:18:59.640 --> 1:19:03.280 of me thinking about all employees is quite critical. 1:19:03.360 --> 1:19:06.439 So completely agree with you. Even in the manufacturing I'm 1:19:06.439 --> 1:19:06.720 with you. 1:19:06.760 --> 1:19:12.040 I think the successful company thinking about creating value, you know, 1:19:12.080 --> 1:19:14.960 not just for shareholders, but for employees as well. I 1:19:15.000 --> 1:19:18.439 see this even in private equity companies are thinking much 1:19:18.479 --> 1:19:22.799 more about broader participation in creating value. 1:19:23.560 --> 1:19:26.120 How do they justify that from a cost perspective? 1:19:26.439 --> 1:19:30.000 I think all our research at McKinsey shows that deeper engagement, 1:19:30.240 --> 1:19:33.960 investing in employees, taking care of them, benefits well being. 1:19:35.040 --> 1:19:39.120 That absolutely leads that deeper engagement leads to better productivity, 1:19:39.120 --> 1:19:40.559 better performance. 1:19:40.520 --> 1:19:43.919 Better financial returns. There's a lot of research that confirms 1:19:43.920 --> 1:19:45.439 that you do. 1:19:45.520 --> 1:19:49.400 Talk to CEOs, and you mentioned the head of Cognizance, 1:19:49.479 --> 1:19:51.840 but I'm just curious talk to us about some of 1:19:51.840 --> 1:19:54.040 the CEOs that you did talk to for the book 1:19:54.080 --> 1:19:57.080 and what you wanted to get from them and include. 1:19:56.760 --> 1:19:59.200 Yeah, Frank is actually in the book, but beyond Frank, 1:19:59.600 --> 1:20:01.040 you know couple of other CEOs. 1:20:01.400 --> 1:20:03.480 Tepan Bansal of Moderna. 1:20:03.600 --> 1:20:06.439 You know, when he wanted to you know, he had 1:20:06.439 --> 1:20:10.360 the aspiration of developing the vaccine. They had never manufactured 1:20:10.360 --> 1:20:14.000 a vaccine before, so he told his head of manufacturing, tell. 1:20:13.800 --> 1:20:17.400 Me what support you need to make a billion? 1:20:17.479 --> 1:20:20.559 Those are the vaccines and and you know, the head 1:20:20.560 --> 1:20:22.320 of manufacturing almost fell off the chair. 1:20:22.760 --> 1:20:25.639 But they also realized that, you know, Stefan normally sped 1:20:25.680 --> 1:20:27.120 an aggressive ambition. 1:20:27.479 --> 1:20:30.040 But was there to support them, roll off his sleeves, 1:20:30.360 --> 1:20:34.200 taught problem with them. Another is Wendy Copp of Teach 1:20:34.240 --> 1:20:35.800 for America and then Teach for All. 1:20:36.360 --> 1:20:38.000 You know, when she took Teach for. 1:20:38.040 --> 1:20:42.280 Americas so now in sixty countries, she realized the value 1:20:42.320 --> 1:20:46.640 of the importance of understanding the context, understanding the entrepreneurs, 1:20:47.040 --> 1:20:50.360 social entrepreneurs in these geographies, and has come up with 1:20:50.439 --> 1:20:55.280 this model of collaborative leadership where the fundamental idea. 1:20:54.960 --> 1:20:58.040 Of education equity is the same, but she's had to tailor. 1:20:57.760 --> 1:21:01.280 The model and inspire these is to have the kind 1:21:01.320 --> 1:21:04.400 of impact in these sixty countries that she never thought 1:21:04.479 --> 1:21:06.519 was possible fifteen twenty years ago. 1:21:07.000 --> 1:21:11.599 A lot of your own work has focused on organizational change. 1:21:11.640 --> 1:21:15.439 As I mentioned in the introduction, this is just another 1:21:15.479 --> 1:21:19.840 way to describe how companies organize themselves from a human 1:21:19.880 --> 1:21:23.880 capital perspective. And I'm wondering over your three decade career 1:21:23.880 --> 1:21:27.320 at McKinsey, what the biggest shift in how organizations have 1:21:27.400 --> 1:21:30.240 realized how they can be more efficient. What has that 1:21:30.320 --> 1:21:30.920 shift been. 1:21:31.439 --> 1:21:34.360 I think the biggest shift is the notion of purpose. 1:21:34.600 --> 1:21:39.400 So we often talk about people purpose performance. I think 1:21:39.439 --> 1:21:42.439 these institutions have realized that they need to figure out 1:21:42.479 --> 1:21:44.880 what is their purpose and how do they help the 1:21:44.920 --> 1:21:47.960 people in the organization reflect on what gives them meaning, 1:21:48.040 --> 1:21:51.400 whether it be their own development, their teams, their bosses, 1:21:51.680 --> 1:21:54.680 the communities around them, and how do they tie that 1:21:54.760 --> 1:21:58.679 purpose back to the individual that's when they can unleash 1:21:59.040 --> 1:22:01.879 the most from the people and deliver sustainable performance. 1:22:01.880 --> 1:22:05.680 Again, Moderna is a great example, and in the healthcare. 1:22:05.960 --> 1:22:08.879 It's probably easier when you're doing work in life sciences 1:22:08.960 --> 1:22:12.160 or healthcare, but helping people see the value of what 1:22:12.160 --> 1:22:15.400 they're doing can then unleash their full less potential. 1:22:15.680 --> 1:22:18.439 I thought it was interesting. There's a chapter, chapter ten, 1:22:18.479 --> 1:22:20.880 everyone keeps things from the Boss, and it talks about 1:22:20.920 --> 1:22:23.960 its somebody becomes the CEO, they really no longer have 1:22:24.120 --> 1:22:29.360 peers who might you know, inform them, keep them, say 1:22:29.600 --> 1:22:31.360 to them, say no to them, or something. 1:22:31.439 --> 1:22:33.160 I know a lot of instances of that that I've 1:22:33.160 --> 1:22:35.599 seen play out over the last few years. So free, 1:22:35.880 --> 1:22:37.920 why is this nobody's saying no around this guy? 1:22:37.960 --> 1:22:40.840 You can tell right, or say that's a great idea. 1:22:41.040 --> 1:22:42.040 That's a great idea, boss. 1:22:42.880 --> 1:22:46.320 So you know, you get in this vacuum, and you know, 1:22:46.560 --> 1:22:49.080 I think there's a lot of either founder led companies 1:22:49.160 --> 1:22:51.920 or founder created companies that ultimately get into a problem 1:22:51.920 --> 1:22:57.160 where nobody wants to tell them, don't do anything, don't 1:22:57.160 --> 1:22:58.719 tweet that exactly. 1:22:58.840 --> 1:22:58.880 No. 1:22:59.000 --> 1:23:00.639 I just think about you know, here we go look 1:23:00.680 --> 1:23:04.080 at companies like Starbucks and Chipotle went their period, you know, 1:23:04.240 --> 1:23:06.960 like these companies so identified with their founders for a 1:23:06.960 --> 1:23:10.040 long time and went through some tough times. I don't 1:23:10.080 --> 1:23:13.639 know what do you tell the leaders to make sure 1:23:13.640 --> 1:23:15.479 they don't get in that predicament? How do they not 1:23:15.520 --> 1:23:16.480 get in that predicament? 1:23:16.760 --> 1:23:18.719 You're absolutely right. And by the way, this is issue 1:23:18.840 --> 1:23:21.879 not just in founder lt company. It's actually many companies 1:23:21.920 --> 1:23:23.800 and not just the CEO. Even as you get more 1:23:23.840 --> 1:23:29.240 senior people start holding back and don't share the truth 1:23:29.640 --> 1:23:31.439 with folks. So I think we had the story in 1:23:31.479 --> 1:23:35.840 that chapter about the media company CEO who surrounded himself 1:23:35.920 --> 1:23:39.559 with truth tellers, and these truth tellers were people at 1:23:39.600 --> 1:23:43.200 all levels. He selected people who were not afraid of 1:23:43.240 --> 1:23:46.240 speaking the truth, but also created an environment where he 1:23:46.400 --> 1:23:49.800 set that expectation with them so that they would come 1:23:49.800 --> 1:23:52.920 and tell him what was really happening, what customers were 1:23:52.920 --> 1:23:56.320 telling them, how they were feeling, how their peers were feeling. 1:23:56.800 --> 1:24:00.960 And he used that knowledge to set the strategy, inspire people, 1:24:01.920 --> 1:24:03.760 and direct his own team. 1:24:04.080 --> 1:24:08.000 Hey, how has the organizational structure of McKinsey changed in 1:24:08.080 --> 1:24:08.559 your career. 1:24:08.960 --> 1:24:12.280 I think McKinsey our mission and values that have stayed 1:24:12.280 --> 1:24:17.080 the same in these thirty years. Obviously, the scope of 1:24:17.160 --> 1:24:19.479 work we do, the geographies we are in, that has 1:24:19.520 --> 1:24:23.280 expanded quite a bit in response to what our clients 1:24:23.280 --> 1:24:23.839 are asking. 1:24:24.960 --> 1:24:27.360 And you know, we're we are innovating, we're. 1:24:27.200 --> 1:24:32.559 Experimenting, we've invested a lot in technology, and then we've 1:24:32.600 --> 1:24:35.519 embed a purpose into what we do that's become much 1:24:35.560 --> 1:24:38.479 more important for us now. So those are some of 1:24:38.520 --> 1:24:41.240 the shifts that I've seen in these thirty years. 1:24:41.280 --> 1:24:44.920 Hey, Ramesh, one thing I want to ask you, and 1:24:44.960 --> 1:24:46.400 I think it's safe to say, we've done a lot 1:24:46.400 --> 1:24:48.639 of reporting a lot of other folks about the consulting 1:24:48.680 --> 1:24:53.000 industry overall, McKinsey and others kind of going through a 1:24:53.040 --> 1:24:56.040 bit of a rethink, a redesign. McKinsey we talked about 1:24:56.080 --> 1:25:00.599 earlier this year, Blueberg reported out, you know, cutting jobs, 1:25:00.640 --> 1:25:04.720 they talked about a slowdown in demand for services, and 1:25:04.800 --> 1:25:09.040 more broadly, the consulting industry has really been going through 1:25:09.640 --> 1:25:12.080 kind of been under the microscope, if you will, and 1:25:12.160 --> 1:25:15.880 McKinsey in particular in terms of the influence of the firm, 1:25:16.560 --> 1:25:20.360 and you know, it's reputation, it's involvement, and I wonder 1:25:20.840 --> 1:25:24.519 a couple of things. One how is the consulting industry going, 1:25:24.560 --> 1:25:27.440 what kind of demand are you seeing for your services? 1:25:27.439 --> 1:25:31.719 And secondly, is it tough sometimes when McKinsey has been 1:25:33.160 --> 1:25:36.280 under the microscope to kind of give advice to other 1:25:36.360 --> 1:25:39.040 companies and how does that make it kind of interesting 1:25:39.080 --> 1:25:40.000 the conversations. 1:25:40.439 --> 1:25:42.519 You know, I'm been in the industry for thirty years, 1:25:42.680 --> 1:25:45.400 and I think the industry goes through its own cycles. 1:25:45.640 --> 1:25:48.320 But I see robust demand. You know, I talked about 1:25:49.000 --> 1:25:54.479 changing geopolitics, technology disruptions, climate change. All of these are 1:25:54.560 --> 1:25:56.920 changes happening in the world, and our clients are looking 1:25:56.960 --> 1:26:02.599 for new creative ways of of driving growth. Our vision 1:26:02.840 --> 1:26:07.240 is to help clients deliver sustainable, inclusive growth in the world. 1:26:07.760 --> 1:26:10.720 I think in that journey, we're seeing robust demand. We're 1:26:10.720 --> 1:26:14.479 also having to shift our own practices. Frankly, if anything, 1:26:15.200 --> 1:26:17.800 we're you know, when clients look at us and see 1:26:17.800 --> 1:26:19.680 some of the changes we're doing, see the way in 1:26:19.720 --> 1:26:21.520 which we're adjusting ourselves. 1:26:22.280 --> 1:26:23.760 You know, part of it is we're taking some of 1:26:23.800 --> 1:26:24.599 our own medicine. 1:26:24.640 --> 1:26:28.719 And I see demand continuing to be robust, and that's 1:26:28.760 --> 1:26:29.599 what keeps me going. 1:26:30.040 --> 1:26:31.920 All Right, one thing we wanted to do, we've done 1:26:31.960 --> 1:26:35.400 this with some other folks that have written leadership books 1:26:36.040 --> 1:26:37.960 is talk about some of the leaders that are out there. 1:26:38.000 --> 1:26:39.400 And I want to start with the two leaders that 1:26:39.400 --> 1:26:44.200 were up on stage in Pennsylvania last night, the debate stage, 1:26:44.680 --> 1:26:48.679 Kamala Harris, Donald Trump. How would you rank them as leaders? 1:26:48.720 --> 1:26:50.760 What advice would you give to them in terms of 1:26:50.760 --> 1:26:52.479 their leadership skills or lack thereof. 1:26:52.960 --> 1:26:55.240 You know, I am not a political commentator, I'm not 1:26:55.280 --> 1:26:55.799 an expert. 1:26:56.000 --> 1:26:58.000 I'll leave it to other experts. 1:26:58.200 --> 1:27:01.000 I think our belief, like I said, is this concept 1:27:01.000 --> 1:27:05.000 of inside out leader leadership where we see successful leaders 1:27:05.479 --> 1:27:12.800 in business, in social leadership, in all spheres thinking about 1:27:12.800 --> 1:27:15.480 their own purpose, who they are, and using. 1:27:15.240 --> 1:27:17.439 That to inspire teams, inspire the world. 1:27:17.479 --> 1:27:20.800 That's the model we see, we understand well, and that's 1:27:20.840 --> 1:27:22.080 what we're sharing with the world. 1:27:22.240 --> 1:27:25.040 Do you think that though these are two candidates, either 1:27:25.080 --> 1:27:27.440 of them, one of them, both of them that inspire 1:27:27.800 --> 1:27:30.360 like the electorate and citizens. 1:27:30.000 --> 1:27:33.120 They obviously have, like citizens, different parts of the world 1:27:33.160 --> 1:27:37.960 that they inspire, right, so you know they resonate with 1:27:37.960 --> 1:27:40.519 different parts of the world and different parts of America 1:27:40.560 --> 1:27:40.960 as well. 1:27:41.680 --> 1:27:44.760 All right, So maybe easier, let's pick a leader that 1:27:44.800 --> 1:27:45.920 we talk about where do you want to go? 1:27:45.920 --> 1:27:46.120 Tim? 1:27:46.240 --> 1:27:48.720 I want to talk about Elon Musk. I mean he's 1:27:48.720 --> 1:27:51.439 someone we talk about each and every day. He's got 1:27:51.600 --> 1:27:57.280 several companies including SpaceX, Tesla of course the boring company 1:27:57.760 --> 1:28:01.400 he's got X formerly known as twin say Neuralink. Didn't 1:28:01.400 --> 1:28:03.479 say Neuralink yet there you go. That's one of the 1:28:03.520 --> 1:28:06.720 companies x AI as well a lot. When you look 1:28:06.720 --> 1:28:08.879 at Elon Musk, what do you see in terms of leadership? 1:28:09.680 --> 1:28:14.040 I mean I see a leader who comes up with ideas, innovating, bold, 1:28:14.680 --> 1:28:18.840 so many attributes that are interesting and useful to learn from. 1:28:19.080 --> 1:28:21.280 What about ways that you think he could be a 1:28:21.320 --> 1:28:21.840 better leader? 1:28:22.360 --> 1:28:25.320 Again, I have not studied Elon Musk, so again I'm 1:28:25.320 --> 1:28:28.759 not I don't think I'm an expert at at Elon 1:28:28.880 --> 1:28:29.840 Musk specifically. 1:28:30.360 --> 1:28:33.400 I'll go back to what we see leaders do. 1:28:33.800 --> 1:28:37.719 I think for us, our leadership model starts with leading staff. 1:28:37.840 --> 1:28:42.160 Who am I, you know, being more self aware, being 1:28:42.200 --> 1:28:44.679 aware of like what are my strengths, what are my areas? 1:28:44.720 --> 1:28:47.479 How can I improve? Like I said right at the beginning, 1:28:47.479 --> 1:28:48.040 that's why. 1:28:47.880 --> 1:28:51.320 People come to the Barer Forum and other leadership programs 1:28:51.320 --> 1:28:51.639 we do. 1:28:52.280 --> 1:28:55.519 And then using that to lead teams, inspire teams. 1:28:55.920 --> 1:28:58.760 You know, I already mentioned at least our belief is 1:28:58.880 --> 1:29:02.680 the model of the imperial CEO is no longer sustainable, 1:29:03.080 --> 1:29:07.320 and then using that to inspire institutions, inspire change in 1:29:07.360 --> 1:29:07.840 the world. 1:29:07.920 --> 1:29:11.759 That's the model of sustainable leadership we've seen, we've studied, 1:29:11.800 --> 1:29:13.599 and we share with leaders who come. 1:29:13.479 --> 1:29:16.160 To us, Ramesh, what are some takeaways that folks who 1:29:16.160 --> 1:29:20.879 don't necessarily lead organizations at the top, but maybe managers 1:29:20.920 --> 1:29:22.840 who have small teams or who are early on in 1:29:22.840 --> 1:29:25.519 their careers, what are some takeaways that they can get 1:29:25.560 --> 1:29:28.320 from the leaders at the top of their game, who 1:29:28.439 --> 1:29:30.320 you've written about, you've studied, you've worked with. 1:29:30.680 --> 1:29:33.440 Yeah, our book has actually meant for a wide spectrum 1:29:33.439 --> 1:29:36.719 of leaders. Leaders frankly, who are who are in schools today, 1:29:36.840 --> 1:29:39.400 Leaders who are early in their career, leaders who are 1:29:39.400 --> 1:29:43.280 more senior. My advice would be, you know, focused not 1:29:43.479 --> 1:29:46.840 just on academic success and achievement, but think about. 1:29:46.960 --> 1:29:49.360 Your own purpose. You know, what do you want to 1:29:49.360 --> 1:29:50.160 accomplish in the. 1:29:50.120 --> 1:29:54.160 World, What what service you want to provide to the 1:29:54.200 --> 1:29:58.400 community around you, and and bring that sense of purpose 1:29:58.479 --> 1:30:01.640 to the to the institution you're part of ask a 1:30:01.680 --> 1:30:05.639 lot of questions. You know, when I meet a lot 1:30:05.680 --> 1:30:08.879 of younger colleagues who are coming into McKenzie, I tell them. 1:30:09.200 --> 1:30:11.160 Exercise the obligation to dissent. 1:30:11.320 --> 1:30:14.360 That's one of our key principles within mckensey. Ask a 1:30:14.400 --> 1:30:18.439 lot of questions, understand how things work, get invite a 1:30:18.439 --> 1:30:21.160 lot of feedback and coaching, and use that to improve 1:30:21.200 --> 1:30:21.599 and grow. 1:30:22.240 --> 1:30:24.800 That's what I advise younger leaders. 1:30:24.800 --> 1:30:27.280 Interesting stuff, I mean, listen a lot of leaders right 1:30:27.360 --> 1:30:29.439 like looking for advice and trying to figure out in 1:30:29.520 --> 1:30:32.160 an environment where things can change a lot a lot 1:30:32.240 --> 1:30:35.200 thrown at you. And if you're publicly held, you can 1:30:35.200 --> 1:30:38.599 be out if the stock price isn't doing well. 1:30:38.800 --> 1:30:40.920 Or maybe they keep paying you even if the stock 1:30:41.040 --> 1:30:44.000 is coming down. We've seen situations like that before too. 1:30:44.280 --> 1:30:47.439 We have seen that, Ramesh. Thank you so much, Ramesh 1:30:47.520 --> 1:30:50.280 Shrinavasen As we said, Senior partner at McKenzie and Company. 1:30:50.439 --> 1:30:52.839 The book is called The Journey of Leadership, How CEOs 1:30:52.920 --> 1:30:55.439 Learn to Lead from the inside out. This is Bloomberg. 1:30:56.000 --> 1:31:01.439 This is the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Spotify and anywhere 1:31:01.439 --> 1:31:05.280 else you get your podcasts. Listen live weekday afternoons from 1:31:05.360 --> 1:31:08.240 two to five pm Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the 1:31:08.320 --> 1:31:11.640 iHeartRadio app tune In, and the Bloomberg Business app. You 1:31:11.680 --> 1:31:14.800 can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube and 1:31:15.040 --> 1:31:16.719 always on the Bloomberg Jermal