WEBVTT - Trump Orders US Agencies to Drop Anthropic After Pentagon Feud 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:10.480 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. This is Bloomberg business 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:14.640 Weekdaily reporting from the magazine that helps global leaders stay 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:18.759 ahead with insight on the people, companies, and trends shaping 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:23.720 today's complex economy, plus global business finance and tech news 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:27.760 as it happens. The Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast with 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:31.680 Carol Masser and Tim Stenebeck on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:36.040 President Trump directed US government agencies to stop using Anthropics products, 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:38.720 capping a feud between the AI Giant and the Pentagon 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:42.440 over safeguards on its technology. The President said before four 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:45.920 o'clock today, right, there would be a six month quote 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:48.640 phase out period for agencies, including the Defense Department, that 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:52.400 are using Anthropics products. I thought, and we're going to 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:54.240 bring up his tweet in a second. Here is the 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:57.600 left true social not a tweet. I'm sorry. The left 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:00.640 wing nut jobs at Anthropic have made a disaster mistake 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:03.240 trying to strong arm the Department of War and force 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:06.319 them to obey their terms of service instead of our constitution. 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:09.959 Their selfishness is putting American lives at risk. 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:14.839 Meantime, we've also seen, according to Axios, saying that Anthropic 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:17.520 and the Pentagon are still negotiating a deal is still 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:26.399 That was after the president's post on Social Access reporter 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:29.880 citing a source on Anthropic and Pentagon in an ex post, 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:32.520 So I don't know clock ticking though here. 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:35.160 Well, fortunately we got Katrina Manson back with US's Bloomberg 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:38.119 News reporter who covers tech in national security. She's also 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:41.119 the author of the forthcoming book Project Maven, a Marine 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:43.360 Colonel his Team in the Dawn of AI Warfare. The 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:45.360 book comes out next month, but you can pre order 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:49.160 it now. She joins us from New York. Katrina, congratulations 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:51.480 on the book. I'm looking forward to reading it. I 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:54.640 know it's been a long project, but it's totally related 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:58.640 to exactly what you have been reporting on in recent 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:01.560 weeks and sharing with us on our program, the back 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:04.640 and forth that Carol and I just had. Where is 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:07.680 this Anthropic Pentagon relationship right now? 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:12.120 Well, it's very significant that the President's weighed in and 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:14.400 called this directive. But of course you're quite right to 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:17.280 say that, to indicate this is the man who knows 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:20.120 the art of the deal, and things are going to 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:23.800 keep going unraveling. Anthropic over the course of six months 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:28.600 will be extremely complicated. They're in the tech stack, they're 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:33.320 in the intelligence community, they are used in combat operations 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:37.400 on Maven's smart system, which is a Palenteer system. It's 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:40.600 not impossible to replace them, and of course the President 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:43.600 is suggesting a six month phase out, and even Anthropic 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:46.880 when they gave their very strong statement yesterday said we 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:49.640 will help if the choice is to remove us, we 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:52.840 will make sure that transition is smooth. And then you've 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:58.400 got now Warner calling in from the Senate Intelligence Committee 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:00.760 suggesting this is a politicized attack, and of course the 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:05.040 president they'd call them left wing nutjobs, so he is 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:09.120 concerned that this is not really a debate about the 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:14.040 future of war, but a jostling for position over which 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:17.280 company gets what. And if the Axios report is correct, 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:20.160 I don't have separate reporting to that, then this could 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:24.320 be still part of that process, Haig Seth. Of course, 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:25.880 the Secretary. 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:27.720 Of War or Defense had given. 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:30.280 Us until five oh one, so we'll also still be 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:32.880 waiting to see if the Defense Department wants to weigh in. 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:35.480 You know, I think about national security with all of 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:40.200 this stuff AI, you name it, you know, raw materials, everything, 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:43.480 and I just think about if this comes undone is 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:46.640 that a loss for national security for the United States. 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:50.640 It's quite hard to work out the ways in which 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:54.280 the US military machine is dependent on AI at the moment. Well, 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:56.080 that's what I've been trying to do in this book, honestly, 0:03:56.120 --> 0:04:00.760 and it has threaded through of course LLMS and gentic AI. 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:03.600 This is something that is being rapidly adopted but also 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:08.840 really really unknown and unreliable in many cases. So the 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:11.680 military and the intelligence community, both of them in terms 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:15.200 of national security, have been experimenting from pretty early on 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:18.240 after that first moment when chat GPT was launched back 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:20.920 in when it was at November twenty twenty three, and 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:25.680 they have started really trying to develop their own systems. Obviously, 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:29.000 Anthropic is the interesting one because they're on the classified cloud. 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:31.560 They found a way to do it, and they were 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:35.360 threaded through a number of systems, mostly helping things run 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:38.800 faster if you imagine an enterprise service, but just happening 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:42.359 in a classified way, really trying to draw on data 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:46.000 points and make things go swifter, quicker, connect things smatter 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:50.040 through bureocracy in that sense, that could slow national security down. 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:50.920 But of course, the. 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:53.800 Thing they said that they were worried about wasn't politics, 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:59.719 it was autonomy. They didn't want their tools being involved 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:03.280 in autonomous warfare because they're not ready. And we were 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:07.200 increasingly beginning to hear from military leaders, not just the 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:09.520 campaigners who you would expect to have a problem with this, 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:13.599 like stop killer robots, but actually the former leader, the 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:16.640 former director of Project maeven Jack Shanahan, who's a retired 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:20.520 three star general, said look, lms are not ready for 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:23.359 prime time. He put that post out yesterday and just 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:26.640 said this technology isn't ready yet, which is very much 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:28.599 in line with what Anthropic had been saying. 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:30.760 I want to go back to the Axios. We have 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:32.840 a little bit of a follow read through on this. 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:35.719 Anthropic and the Pentagon still negotiating ahead of the Pentagon's 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:39.599 five oh one pm ET deadline, are reached deal. Citing 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.440 a source familiar, Axios goes on to say, if no 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:45.400 deal has reached, Defense Secretary Pete Hexath's plans to declare 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:49.080 Anthropic a supply chain risk, there's five oh one deadline, 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:52.760 Might it, Katrina be extended? What where did this deadline? 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:55.360 You can talk deadline in the past, you know deadlines 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:55.880 can move. 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:00.520 I mean, so much of this is performative, as we've 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:05.039 seen a lot of very loud public statements, as we 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:08.599 actually have learned the disagreement on paper comes down to 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:12.920 the term as appropriate. There have been letters going backwards 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:16.320 and forwards, so we've been told that are about whether 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:19.400 human judgment will be used over the use of force 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:24.239 in an autonomous situation. And we had Emil Michael talking 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:26.800 to Bloomberg TV much more cool headed than he was 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:30.039 last night. Last night he was calling dari Amadee a 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:32.239 liar and saying he had a god complex. This morning 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:34.640 with Bloomberg, he was saying, look, talks are carrying on. 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:40.240 So I think, of course this is a negotiation. They've acknowledged. 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:42.599 I think in multiple ways that they're really dependent on 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:45.240 Claude and that thought is really good and they want 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:47.679 to keep using it. Claud doesn't want to be involved 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:52.120 in autonomy, and I was learning, of course that if 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:54.640 the department pushes ahead but autonomy in the way it 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:57.040 wants to do, it could be quite hard to have 0:06:57.080 --> 0:07:00.880 one system that allows autonomy and another that doesn't touch 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:02.280 autonomy that Claude would be on. 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:04.320 So they do need to work out. 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:06.520 Exactly what their red lines are. Even if they're coming 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:10.120 to a much softer accommodation behind closed doors now. But 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:12.120 you know, with the President weighing in and with heg 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:14.720 Seth maintaining this position, there's no reason to think they 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:16.360 will reach a deal at five oh one. 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:18.960 So, Katrina, just in the last twenty seconds that we 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:22.480 have with you, when I was on my way home yesterday, 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:24.800 this crossed. It was just minutes after you were on 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:27.360 our program talking about it, but it said it was 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:30.760 this post from anthropics Dario Amiday saying that the company 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:33.560 cannot accede to the Department of Defense. Did you learn 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:35.720 anything just in thirty seconds. Did you learn anything new 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:37.000 in that post last night? 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:40.760 Yeah? Here, I've got it right in front of me. 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:43.560 Actually, I thought there was a very interesting part of it, 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:46.520 a detail to pick out, which is we've offered to 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:48.640 work directly with the Department of War on R and 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:51.800 D to improve the riability of these systems that they 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:55.320 have not accepted this offer. I thought that was very interesting. 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:57.840 They are saying, we want. 0:07:57.520 --> 0:08:01.600 To help you use this while technology in a reliable way, 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:03.360 and you help us help. 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:06.240 You, which is similar to what the Undersecretary of Defense 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:08.080 at earlier this morning. 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:09.480 You go to a dinner party. 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:11.200 You want to sit to somebody, you want to sit 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:12.239 next to somebody like Katrina. 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:13.760 I'm just gonna put that out there. 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:17.480 Stay with us. More from Bloomberg Business Week Daily coming 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:18.520 up after this. 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:26.680 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily podcast. Catch 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:29.440 US Live weekday afternoons from two to five eas during 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:33.560 listen on Applecarplay and Android Otto with the Bloomberg Business app, 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:36.079 or watch US Live on YouTube. 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:38.800 All right, that's the latest on the US economic picture. 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:41.680 Let's get to two companies looking at our economy and 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:44.760 the issue of affordability, especially when it comes to housing 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:46.920 and really the ability to own a home. As we 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:49.480 know home ownership in the US, it offers stability, it's 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:52.400 an offer, a way to create wealth. 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:55.320 And this is a really big part of the American dream. 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:58.000 I laugh, but it's not funny because a lot of 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:02.080 people between US home prices outpacing wages. It's made it 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:04.559 really difficult for many to afford a home in the 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:05.240 United States. 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:07.120 Well, two companies are looking to address that. We're talking 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:09.439 about Compass and Rocket Companies. The two announced to a 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:13.160 three year strategic alliance aimed at expanding home listing inventory 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:16.800 to create a significantly enhanced and affordable home buying and 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:18.839 selling experience for American family. 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:21.120 All right, we wanted to know more. Also, we should 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:22.679 point out our next two guests. Both of them had 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:25.920 earnings last night. Compast shares are a little bit lower 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:28.760 the company forecast first quarter revenue, the top analyscet testaments, 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:31.880 and shares of Rocket rallying after the mortgage finance company 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:35.080 posted revenue and adjusted profit for the fourth quarter that 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:36.800 beat the average analyst estimate, which. 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:38.960 Means we're going to get to the macro as well. 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:41.800 With us in studio, Robert Refkin, he's founder, chairman and 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:45.599 CEO of Compass International Holdings, and Varun Krishna, President and 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:49.160 CEO Rocket Companies, both joining us here in studio. Welcome, 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:53.240 like you are the perfect guests to have right now 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:55.439 with so much going on, I want to talk about 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:58.400 the partnership though, and how it gets to the affordability issue. 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:01.040 Let's go right there. Robert, who whatever wants to kick it. 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:05.559 Off, please go ahead. So let's get it. 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:06.880 Well. 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:10.640 Look what this represents is the number one largest brokerage 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:13.640 in the world, Compass three hundred and forty thousand agents, 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:18.680 nine brands Compass, Corcoran, So the Best, Caldel Banker, Beterhomes 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:21.520 and Garden e A Central twenty one, Christie's and ad 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:24.839 Properties partnering with the largest mortgage company in the world 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:28.560 to help sellers by giving them something they've never had before, 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:32.240 which the ability to market their homes to sixty million 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:35.679 buyers without days on market and price drop history. Ultimately, 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:39.200 there's a risk to listing negative insights that are on 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:41.920 listings that we are taking off the listing so for 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:44.280 the first time so that they can market without risks. 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:46.040 There should not be these artificial barriers. 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:49.480 Yeah, come on in here, because if we think about affordability, 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:51.760 you know what we hear over and over again from 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:57.320 economists is, yeah, mortgage rates matters matter. You know, it 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:01.520 matters how much people are are thinking about buying and 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:05.040 their salaries and how they think about affordability. But it 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:07.840 really has to do with supply and if we're not 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:10.400 building more homes in places where people want to live, 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:12.680 we're just not going to make a dent. How do 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:14.040 you do it if you're not a builder. 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:16.760 I think it's a very complicated problem, and I think 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:20.520 it's really important that industry participates and does its part, 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.560 and the purpose of this partnership is really to attack 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:27.240 affordability in two ways. The first one is inventory. As 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:29.480 Robert shared, we plan to bring as a result of 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:32.720 this partnership, five hundred thousand to a million listings to 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:34.880 the market that are not accessible and. 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:37.360 So why aren't they accessible Because part. 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:39.640 Of the issue is that certain sites provide access to 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:43.319 these private exclusives and coming soon listings, and these are 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:46.880 inventory that really comes down to a more flexible way 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:49.000 for sellers to be able to advertise their home. And 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:51.800 what we think is that everyone is really focused on 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:54.360 the buyer. That's obviously a very important side of the equation, 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:57.320 but in some ways the entire world is forgotten about 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:59.000 the other side of the equation, and that's the seller. 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:01.520 And so this partnership first is focused on the seller. 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:04.160 It's about lowering the barrier to entry so that more 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:08.320 listings can be advertised online on redfin and on Compass. 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:11.240 That's one side of the equation. The second side of 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:14.520 this is a mortgage partnership, and that's where we are 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:18.840 building a more integrated platform for buyers so that buyers 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:22.040 that use Rocket Mortgage, that use Compass can actually save money. 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:24.920 They can get up to six thousand dollars in closing 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:28.280 costs coverage. They can save up to one percent on 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:31.160 payments for the first year. And so it's a very 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:34.360 multifaceted challenge to fix affordability. But what's great about this 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:37.679 partnership is it fixes things for both buyers and sellers 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:39.199 on both sides of the ecosystem. 0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:41.120 But I got to ask, you know, one of the 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:42.880 things that Tim and I we've covered this a lot 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:44.960 in terms of affordability, and yes, it's some of it 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:47.960 is buying homes, affordable homes where they are needed. 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:49.920 It's not just buying homes. 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:51.400 But the other thing is a lot of folks have 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:53.480 said we need to pay people more, that it's an 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:56.000 income thing, So like, are you guys going to give mortgages? 0:12:56.040 --> 0:13:00.120 Are you changing your metrics in terms of income and 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:03.320 so and so forth? Qualifies yeah, because that gets to 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:04.560 the affordability issue too. 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:07.359 Yeah, I mean, I think, look, the reality is affordability, 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:10.040 as you said, is much more than just supply and demand, 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:12.439 although supplying demand are probably the major ways to. 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:13.360 Attack the problem. 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:15.280 But a part of this is you have to have 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:17.959 more ways to qualify people you have alternative ways to 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:20.800 look at things like credit. You have to think about reform, 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:21.960 you have to think about wage. 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:23.520 What do you think about self employed? 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:27.600 We have diversified the way that we look at our population. 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:29.480 I mean, you look at things like the creator economy, 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:32.160 you look at the self employed economy. So you have 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:35.640 different ways that people make income, have credit, and it's 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:38.120 really important I think to acknowledge that and to diversify 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:39.320 the way you qualify folks. 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:42.200 So the idea big picture is you increase supply, you 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:45.240 get more homes listed out there, it frees up inventory 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:47.360 for people to buy that first home. 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:51.720 Robert, But yeah, go ahead, So you mentioned developers and holders. Look, 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:54.720 unfortunately that will just take too long. If we attack 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:57.000 the builder side, that will take two years to have 0:13:57.160 --> 0:13:59.720 even the most modest impact. The bigger impact is not 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:02.480 really where you play. The bigger impact exactly what we 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:06.120 play on both. But the bigger impact is on existing 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:09.160 home sales, and that's where there's there's been less inventory 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:12.559 because so many homeowners locked into low mortgage rates and 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:14.640 they don't want to lose that low mortgage rate to 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:15.720 transfer to a six. 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:16.319 Percent mortgage rate. 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:19.480 So the way to expand the existing home sale market 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:22.040 is to reduce the bearers to entry. And so let 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:24.720 me give you some examples. Yeah, why do sellers say 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:28.120 when's the right time to list? There shouldn't. There shouldn't 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:29.520 be a right time to list. But they're worried about 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:32.280 days on market? Why is there a fear of what 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:34.560 price should we go at? Well, there shouldn't be a 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:37.320 price drop history. That shouldn't be a conversation. You know, 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:40.040 my wife would never want to sell her home, but 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:42.400 do you ask her is there a price you'd sell 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:42.720 your home? 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:45.200 Yes, there's a price, there's always a price. 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:48.960 But don't those histories inform the potential seller? Doesn't that 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:52.840 data show and help inform a buyer? Doesn't that provide 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:54.280 more information to the market. 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:56.880 So look, if I were buying your company, I would 0:14:57.000 --> 0:14:59.240 love your investment banker told me how long you've been 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:00.760 trying to sell your company and how many times you 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:03.560 drop the price. But that's not what I'm buying. That's 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:06.960 a negotiating point for leverage. If buyers deserve to know price, 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:09.080 job history and days and market sellers to deserve to 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:11.600 know how long has that buyer been searching, how many 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:13.440 times they put in office that fell through and fell 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:17.400 out a contract. And so we believe if you the buyer, 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:20.760 what you need is you need more inventory. So to 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:22.640 help you the buyer, the best thing that we can 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:25.400 do is just let the seller sell however they want. 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:27.200 And if we do that, they'll be more inventory. 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:29.000 So then wait a minute, So then now does the 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:31.240 seller have more information or you're just getting rid of 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:33.360 it and it's just kind of a through. 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:36.160 We're just getting rid of it for the first time. 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:37.800 So you just listed and you go. 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:41.120 If you go to Australia, the word days on marketing 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:43.440 and price job history are not on the sites. They 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:46.040 don't exist. The reason why is that system was built 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:50.080 for sellers here. It was built because everyone's forced to 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:52.760 put in the MLS. It was built for buyers. And 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:54.640 so we're just trying to bring the pendulum back and 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:58.360 give individual homeowners the same advantages as the builders. Builders 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:00.840 market without days on marketing, price jop history. So we 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:02.640 should give homeowners the same opportunity. 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:04.440 What makes you so sure this is going to work 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:06.720 in terms of the affordability, because I also wonder if 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:09.640 you remove some of that information. To Tim's point, if 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:12.280 there have been price drops that ultimately brings down the 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:13.480 cost of the price of housing. 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:14.960 But if you don't have that and it. 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:18.040 Just kind of stays and maybe doesn't really indicate what's 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:21.840 happening at the broader market, Doesn't that lead to price appreciation, 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:23.359 and that doesn't get to the affordability. 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:24.800 I think there's two things to point out. I think 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:27.120 the first thing is I think no one can disagree 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:30.400 that today there is no inventory right Like, we have 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:32.760 an issue with the way the system works today, which 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:35.520 is that we looked at some redfinn data and so 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:38.200 half of the homes that are listed right now have 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:40.160 been on the market for sixty days plus. So we 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:41.760 have a lot of stale inventory. You don't have a 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:42.840 lot of new inventory. 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:45.840 So I spend my neighborhood because I like to check 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:47.360 and keep an eye inter there's. 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:49.720 There's not much inventory is coming on market. And so 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:52.520 to me, it's less about some of these metrics. It's 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:54.720 more just like, how do you create more inventory? More 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:58.440 inventory it creates more competition, it reduces scarcity, and that 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:02.000 creates pricing advantage. So the bigger picture for us is 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:06.240 just how do you attack the supply problem? Because without sellers, 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:08.680 you're not going to have buyers and every seller ends 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:11.000 up being a buyer. And that's really what we're focused 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:11.480 on here. 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:14.440 Robert, you're a data driven guy. How do you measure 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:17.000 if this actually works? Like, what's the metric? 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:19.879 We will see more inventory come to the market. 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:20.640 How much more inventory? 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:25.639 Before restrictions came into the industry through something called clear Cooperation, 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:29.280 which forced every individual American homeowner to put their listening 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:32.240 in MLS after twenty four hours, ninety percent of our 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:37.000 listing started off outside of the MLS system. And when 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:40.240 that rule came into effect, we saw less inventory. And 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:42.640 so I can't give you the exact number, but we will. 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.360 We will see how much more inventory we will bring 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:46.400 to the market and we'll share that. 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:46.840 With the public. 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:48.840 Will this work in any rate environment? 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:49.960 Absolutely? 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:52.960 Just there should be no fear to list, There should 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:55.560 be no downside to list, There should be no barrier 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:57.560 to list. You should be able to list however you want. 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:00.320 Do you want to not disclose the price sin say 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:02.640 price spawn request? Do you want to have how many 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:04.919 photos you want? You want to have no photos? Do 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:06.920 you want to have an address that just this fifth 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:11.119 Avenue luxury penouse without seeing the exact unit? Number whatever 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:13.720 you want. If you take away all those bears, you 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:14.680 will have more inventory. 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:16.679 Help me understand too, What does this do to the 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:20.560 selling process the real estate agents who are selling properties, 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:24.240 who often sometimes I would say, covet certain properties. 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:25.440 Does that change any of them? 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:28.560 Well, obviously, I believe deeply in real estate ags. My 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:31.680 mom is a real estate agent, all my clients are agents. 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:34.560 Is well calling you and say what my. 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:38.080 Mom supports this idea, okay, as he supports the partnership, 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:40.960 but no agents are at the center of this. And 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:43.280 you know we both are companies with loan officers and 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:46.679 real estate agents. We are empowering the real estate professionals 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:48.800 that are required to make the transaction happen. 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:51.320 The other thing I would add around the rate environment 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:52.320 to that question. 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:54.600 You guys did kind of smile when I said, what 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:56.040 was going on with the ten year and how we 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:56.920 some rates moved down? 0:18:57.160 --> 0:19:00.040 So it does impact Well, it's great. 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:01.880 To see rates moving in a good direction. We think 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:03.880 that gets more buyers off the sideline. But I think 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:04.760 what's unique. 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:06.960 It's the economy slowing down. Andy's going to be working, 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:07.480