WEBVTT - SYSK Selects: How Lie Detectors Work 0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:03.840 Hello there, it's me Josh and for this week's s 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:07.240 Y s K Selects, I've chosen our classic episode on 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:11.240 Lie Detectors. It's a pretty nifty little episode about a 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:15.440 pretty dodgy piece of forensic science with a wow of 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:19.479 a backstory. It is classic stuff you should know, so 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:24.400 I hope you enjoy. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:33.000 a production of My Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:36.080 and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. With me 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:40.800 is always as Charles to be Chuck Bryant liar you 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:43.400 you could tell there's the ways you can find out 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:46.360 Chuck Um. We'll get to that in a minute. This 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:49.280 is stuff you should know. Let me finish, Okay, and 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:54.040 it's you lie. Remember that guy, Yeah, Joe joey Pants 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:57.360 or whatever the congressman's name. Yeah, Saturday Night Live a 0:00:57.400 --> 0:00:59.680 funny skit that he had gotten a whole group of 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:01.800 people to all stayed up at once, wasn't the deal? 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:05.080 Tell it? And well, yeah, and he supposed he had 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:07.080 a whole group of senators that we're gonna all stand 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:10.120 up and yell you lie. And then he was the 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:12.759 only one that did it. That's because he was out 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:14.200 of the room when they were like, no, we can't 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:19.880 do that, that's funny. Yeah. So um, oh, we're talking 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:22.479 about a lot of detectors. But let me take you back, 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:25.840 all right to a little place in time and space 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:32.960 called the jazz age early nineteen twenties. Yeah. No, that's 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:36.479 the beat Knicks that did that. Okay, Um, I'm sure 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:40.040 a jazz person snapped their fingers at one point. Sure, um, 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:44.119 but not like that, all right. It was more like 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:49.840 like Coltrane style, just like that. Anyway. This is Chuck 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:54.520 in Berkeley, California, at u c l A, Berkeley, And 0:01:54.600 --> 0:01:58.440 there is a place there called, um, the College Hall, 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:02.680 which was a women's dorm. And in that year there 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:05.920 were a theft, a string of there was a string 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:11.840 of um thefts, cash rings, um, pretty much anything of 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:15.880 value went missing for a little while there. And uh, 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:19.320 there's a man working at the Berkeley Police Department in 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:22.919 the girl's dorm. Yeah, okay, called College Hall. There was 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:25.399 a man working in the in the Berkeley Police Department's 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:28.400 name is John Larson. And John Larson was the first 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:32.840 cop ever to have a pH d. And he had 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:40.480 gotten interested in this device called a cardio neumo psychograph 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:42.880 which had been invented just a few years before by 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:47.000 another guy named William Marston. And William Marston was a 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:51.200 lawyer in a Harvard shrink and he also as an 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:55.320 aside creative wonder Woman with her Lasso of truth. Really, 0:02:55.680 --> 0:03:00.240 he's the guy who invented the what's now called the polygraph. 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:03.560 What about the wonder Woman? He created Wonder Woman, the character. 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:07.240 He was kind of a renaissance man. But that's William Marston. 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:10.320 John Larson works at the at the Berkeley Police Department 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:14.280 and he's become interested in this thing, the cardio neumo psychograph, 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:18.120 and he realizes, okay, this is a perfect chance to 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:21.400 apply it. So he rounds up, you know, some suspects. 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:23.920 He does some some normal police work and finds out 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:27.080 who the suspects are in this in this hall, and 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:28.760 he rounds him up, brings him down the station, and 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:31.639 he starts hooking people up to this um this machine. 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:35.280 And he gets to this one woman, her name is 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:40.080 Helen Graham, and guilty, yes, pretty much is what he does. 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:43.040 He goes, ms. Graham, this machine is saying that you're 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:45.440 that you took this, that you you took the money, 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:48.200 you know, did you? Um and he said that he 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:51.760 noted on the machine a sharp dropping blood pressure followed 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:54.400 by a sudden rise. And then after that this woman 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:56.800 flew into a rage. She tried to attack the machine. 0:03:57.200 --> 0:04:01.640 She went crazy. So they they basically stringer along for 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:04.560 a few days, and then finally she confesses, and it's 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:06.600 the first time that a polygraph was ever used to 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:11.000 to um solve a crime. Ever, that that was probably 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:13.680 the heyday because before the people knew what it was, 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:16.520 they could just say this machine says that you're guilty, 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:19.839 and they would be like, oh my god, that's exactly right. 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:23.599 Very early on, some of the early proponents, specifically a 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:28.320 guy named a Leonard Keeler, um recognized the placebo effect 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:30.599 value before anyone knew there was a placebo effect, but 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:35.000 the placebo effect value of a polygraph. That just the idea, 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:37.599 if you believed in this machine and that it could 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:41.400 rude outlies, then it could force you to confess just 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:44.000 being hooked up to it. You weren't going to pass it. 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:46.960 They should have called it the guilt box. They called 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:49.960 it the magic lie detector is one of the one 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:51.799 of the things that they called it. Yeah, Leonard Keeler 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:54.039 called it that he worked with John Larson at the 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:57.600 Berkeley Police Department, and eventually, over time John Larson saw 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:00.800 the what he considered the true youth behind the light 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:03.920 detector and the fact that it kept being cold light detector, 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:07.600 which is driving him crazy. Um, and he eventually distanced 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:10.640 himself from it later on in his career. Um, but 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:14.039 Leonard Keeler ran around marketing it to anyone and everyone saying, 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:17.680 just having this is going to not only help you 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:23.359 hire um, more more truthful, forthright people, but it's going 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:25.240 to keep them in line while they're working for you, 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:27.279 because they know you've got access to this thing and 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:30.120 you can strap them to it at any time. Yeah, 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:32.599 so that's where the polygraph came from. Yeah, there's a 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:35.560 little prehistory to just to give them their due. Uh. 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:41.839 In eight Cesaire Lambroso, he's an Italian criminologist. He measured 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:45.560 changes in blood pressure for police cases. In a nineteen 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:51.000 o four a device by Vittorio Binosi measured breathing and 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:54.000 so they were early nineteen hundreds, late eighteen hundreds. They 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:57.880 were kind of on the scene of of measuring these things. 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:02.159 And Dr James Mackenzie in nineteen o six first mentioned 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:05.760 the word polygraph with his instrument that he didn't use 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:09.840 to root out the truth, but for uh he did 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:13.520 use it when giving medical examination though. And then right 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:17.560 before the polygraph was the unigraph unigraph, which was part 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:20.880 of what's still used today in the polygraph. Um, it 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:26.360 measured respiration. Pretty cool, yeah, um, but then you add 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:28.599 to it a couple of other things and you got 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:31.360 the polygraph. We could stop here. This is interesting enough 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:36.560 right now. So there's no uh you really, there's no um, 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:39.440 no one walking the planet who has anything to do 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:44.920 with polygraphs that call them lie detectors, And anyone, even 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:51.479 the most ardent defender of polygraph technology would correct you 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:53.760 if you called it a lie detector. They would be like, 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:56.159 it's it's not a lie detector because you can't detect 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:59.440 a lie. It's possible. The whole basis of a polygraph 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:03.599 is that it is a set of um medical instruments 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:07.080 that used to measure changes in things like your heart rate, 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:13.520 your respiration, UM and sweatiness. Basically, I would fail. Um, well, 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:15.720 a lot of people do fail, and we'll get to that. 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:21.640 But um, oh, because you're sweat that's okay. They would 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:28.320 they would even hook me up. Um. So when you're 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:30.320 hooked up to this machine, the whole point is that 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:33.600 it measures these physiological changes in the idea that there 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:37.480 you're going to undergo physiological changes based on the concept 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:40.640 that a person hooked to this machine who is guilty 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:45.400 will experience fear that they're going to be detected. So 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:49.720 this machine is designed to detect that fear. That's right, 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:54.480 which is really round about. But for a century almost 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:58.440 these things were used, um and abused, and it took 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:01.559 a while for people that to catch on that. There's 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:04.760 a lot to criticize here with polygraphs, Yeah, for sure. 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:27.400 All right, so let's get into this um. First of all, 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:30.280 we need to point out that analog polygraphs are what 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:34.079 you have long seen in movies and TV when they 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:37.160 have the little jittery looks like a seismograph on the 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:41.040 on the paper scrolling by, and uh, you're hooked up 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:43.040 to all these different things on your chest, in your 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:47.360 forehead and your fingertips. These days they do that digitally, 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:52.079 but it's basically still the same technique. They just don't 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:55.320 use the little scrolling needle. Do They have a name 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:59.640 for that. It's called an inkfield pen. It is. Yeah. 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:03.480 But the three things that they do, Josh, They measure 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:06.720 your respiratory rate, as you said, They take newmgraphs, which 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:10.040 are rubber tubes filled with air time around your chest 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:13.559 and your abdomen, and that is going to measure whether 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:16.480 or not you're you know, you start breathing heavy essentially 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:19.080 when you get nervous. It monitors your breathing pattern and 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:22.280 any changes to it, and it does it pretty cleverly. Right. Yeah. 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:25.000 With bellows, it they're filled with air. So when you 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:28.000 when you breathe in real deeply or have a change, 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:31.800 it's going to displace that into the bellows and that 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:35.240 will Originally that was attached, the bellows were literally attached 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:38.439 to the mechanical arm that showed the change. These days, 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:43.240 as a it's a transducer that converts it digitally electronically, right, 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:46.800 it converts it to an electrical pattern, right, Yeah, that 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:50.319 probably just says for the same thing. Yeah, um no, 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:52.360 I think it looks a lot like it if you look. 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:56.200 There's a picture of a modern one and it looks 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:58.280 just like But yeah, it's not. It's not a paper 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:01.360 read out any longer, which is kind of interesting. Like 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:06.440 this technology hasn't hasn't changed on a very fundamental basis 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:08.439 for like a hundred years almost. Yeah, I mean the 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:11.040 early one from Mackenzie in nineteen o six. They say 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:13.679 that a lot of the same components are still very 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:17.199 similar today. Right. Um. You also are going to have 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:19.280 so you're gonna have two tubes, one around your chest, 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:22.480 one around your abdomen. It's um keeping an eye on 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:25.520 your breathing. Um. You're going to have a blood pressure 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:30.000 cuff which um, which keeps an eye on your heart 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:34.600 rate and your blood pressure, and it does it through sound, right. Yeah, 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:37.120 I didn't realize this. So when you're when the blood 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:39.440 comes in and out of your veins, it creates sound, 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:44.280 and sound can also be used to displace air, causing 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:48.560 a bellows to contract, which again moved the arm on 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:52.320 the scroll and now is created or turned into an 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:56.520 electrical pattern. Um, but it's the same thing, but it's sound, 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:58.800 which I just think is very neat. Well, and what's 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:01.880 also neat is the sweat one. I figured they would 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:05.960 have some sort of like a moisturerometer just to detect moisture, 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:12.720 but it's called galvanic skin resistance or GSR or electrodermal activity, 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:15.760 that's right. And they hook up these fingerplates to galvanometers 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:20.520 and they are basically measuring the skin's ability to conduct electricity. 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:22.960 And if your skin is moist, it's going to be 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:26.760 able to conduct electricity easier. And that's what they're measuring there. 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:30.400 It's like the ones the little um heart rate monitors 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:33.920 that they clip to your fingertips in the hospital, but 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:40.520 these things measure electricity instead, uh, which if you are dry, 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:44.800 you're going to conduct less electricity, if you're wet, you're 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:47.199 going to conduct more. So since you have so many 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:49.680 pores on the end of your fingers and you sweat 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:54.079 when you're nervous. There you got done. So you put 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:57.120 all this together and um, it paints this picture. It's 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:00.520 the A. C. L U among other people, have decried 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:04.360 as just what are you doing here? Basically is what 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:08.720 the A C l U says, right, Um, what what 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:12.840 you have is a picture of a person who is 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:18.920 undergoing stress, maybe feeling embarrassment, is maybe just scared to 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:22.440 be there, uh, maybe doesn't like having things wrapped around 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:26.240 his or her chest. Um, maybe doesn't really like the 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:32.439 person asking the questions. The results of these these UM 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:36.880 changes in pattern. The data is totally subjective, that's right, 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:41.760 which makes polygraphs totally subjective, which takes it in large 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:45.160 part out of the realm of science. Yeah, voodoo science 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:48.360 is what they call it. And uh, all the proponents 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:52.960 will say that a well trained forensic psychophysiologists which is 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:56.800 the examiner, can get through all that to still get 0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:59.319 a good result. They're like, yeah, they know all this stuff, 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:02.200 and if you're good, then you can factor that in 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:05.000 and still get a good result. So let's talk about 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:10.320 what the forensic psychophysiologist does. There's apparently I've seen anywhere 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:12.440 between five thousand and ten thousand of them in the 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:17.760 US at any given time, UM, and some of them 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:23.360 belong to professional organizations. I think probably maybe half or third, 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:26.440 depending on where you are on the on the estimate, 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:32.240 UM belonged to any number of professional organizations. Some have 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:36.160 no accreditation whatsoever, um, but are still able to open 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:39.000 up shops depending on the state there in. Some states 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:43.600 have zero laws about being a forensic psychophysiologist a k 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:48.000 A polygraph examiner. That's right, but there is also some 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:51.800 there are programs out there. Uh. The who wrote this article, 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:54.719 Kevin bondser I don't know. I think so he he 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:59.920 UM interviewed a guy who founded the Accidon Academy exit 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.760 Haunt as a manufacturer of polygraphs, and they founded this 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:07.520 academy as well, where um, you go through a certain 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:11.680 amount of training to become a forensic psychophysiologist. And he 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:16.080 actually interviewed that guy. Yeah, his name's Bobb Lee Lee. Uh, 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:19.480 and Lee says that if you come to their academy, UM, 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:23.760 you have to have a baccalaurea degree bachelor's right, or 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:26.560 you have to have at least five years investigative experience 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:30.160 and an associate's degree. Um, you have to take a 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:34.880 ten week course, and after you complete the ten week course, 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:39.040 you have to carry out twenty five polygraph examinations and 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:42.640 submit them to be reviewed. Uh. So these are like 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:45.040 real life ones. I guess you're working with your local 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:48.880 police department or whatever. Maybe you're already a cop UM 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:52.560 and you have to submit it to the Accident Academy 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:55.920 board for a review. And then once they're all reviewed 0:14:55.960 --> 0:15:00.360 and everybody's all thumbs up, you are a life since 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:04.600 I guess. But you're not licensed because there's no licensing body. Um, 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:08.160 you are you graduate? I guess is is what they 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:13.800 call it. So that's as accredited as it gets. I guess. 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:19.680 And like you said, Um, proponents of polygraph testing say 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:22.280 that there, if you're a good FP, you're gonna be 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:25.600 able to structure everything correctly so that you can see 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:27.920 past somebody who's just who sweats a lot like you, 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:31.800 or who gets stressed out easily like me, Um, and 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.440 design your questions appropriately, and you're gonna be able to 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:39.200 to to figure out whether this person is deceptive or not. 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:43.960 So how how would you do that? Chuck? Well, we 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:46.800 should talk about the test itself. I guess. Uh, you're 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:48.320 gonna you're gonna go in and you're gonna get a 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:52.000 pretest before you get strapped up to anything. Could take 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:54.520 about an hour. This is just you and those the 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:56.920 only two people in the room. You're not surrounded by 0:15:56.960 --> 0:16:00.320 folks like in the movies and stuff, although a movie 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:03.360 sometimes it's just two people, I guess. But the pretest 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:05.880 that you're just going to get an interview basically about 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:10.640 basically about why you're being investigated. Uh, they're also gonna 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:13.600 be profiling you and checking you out and just seeing 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:16.520 what kind of questions you respond to and what might 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:19.320 make you nervous, just so they'll be better informed about 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:22.400 how to properly question you once you're all strapped in 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:25.160 right and the pretest where you're just kind of hanging 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:27.960 out with them casually, the examiners also kind of getting 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:31.600 info out of you that you might not be aware of, like, um, 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:36.360 if you are uh, if you talk leisurely about your 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:38.400 favorite beer at one point and how you like it 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:41.160 a lot, and then later on it also comes up 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:44.320 that you have to drive a lot um, they might 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:46.000 come up with it. They might use that for a 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:49.440 control question, UM, which could be something like have you 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:52.880 ever driven under the influence of alcohol? And a control 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:56.680 question is something where you would have to admit guilt um, 0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:59.080 and you may not want to, but it's such a 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:02.200 broad question that just about anybody is guilty of it, 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:04.880 like have you ever lied to somebody? Have you ever 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:08.400 um stolen anything? That kind of thing, So where if 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:12.880 you say no, they now have a baseline for what 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:15.840 it looks like when you lie. That they can make 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:19.320 a reasonable assumption that you have just lied. And any 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:23.600 of the data UM captured on the polygraph they're going 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:27.040 to use to analyze everything else off of. And that's 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:30.520 pretty much it. That's the test, and afterward you have 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:32.280 the post tests where they look at all the data 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:37.359 and chart out whether or not they think you're deceptive 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:40.760 and aware. Like on this question you were deceptive. On 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:42.919 this question you may have been deceptive. It's kind of 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:45.400 hard to tell. On this one you definitely were deceptive. 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:48.000 So so, and it's all in it's all in relation 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:51.760 to that control question, that baseline, right, So if you 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:56.280 if your deception, if you if on questions where I mean, 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:58.000 they're going to have to talk to the police as 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:00.080 well too and say what do you want to know 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:02.879 out of this person? So they'll design questions around that 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:05.920 as well. Um, so they may have a question like, um, 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:08.280 are you wearing a blue shirt? That may be question one, 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:13.080 it's irrelevant, right. Question two is, um, have you ever 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:15.840 lied to your boss? That's the control question, and then 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:19.080 question three is something like you know, did you steal 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:21.080 the cookie from the cookie jar? Like that's the one 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:24.520 that the cops want them to ask. They'll compare the 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:29.359 results of Q three against Q two and if they're 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:33.800 the same or you can't really tell, that's in UH 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:38.280 in that that's an UH inconclusive tests. So that's it. 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:56.760 I mean, like you said, that's that's polygraph. It's pretty easy, 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:01.399 it is. It's Uh, it's um jar ringly easy, considering 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:04.840 that it's used in legal cases a lot, right, Yes, 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:08.880 that's true. Um. People try to to battle the LDE 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:11.879 detector in various ways or a little tricks that the 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:15.480 Internet says works, like taking a sedative or putting any 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.480 perspirint on your fingers, which seems like they would make 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:22.359 you wash your hands, Uh, putting attack in your shoe, 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:25.720 and anytime you get asked a question, every single time 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:28.080 you stomp on the tack. And the idea is that 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:30.560 you're just gonna skew the tests so they all look 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:33.440 the same, so your body has the same reaction no 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:36.280 matter what's going on, like they I guess, if you 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:39.720 press on the tack, your physiological response could overwhelm any 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:45.120 response to the question. Right. Um, Like I said, there, 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:49.520 these these things are used in legal cases, but with caveats. Right. 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:54.520 If you undergo a polygraph, Uh, whether you fail or pass, 0:19:55.600 --> 0:20:00.600 it doesn't really matter legally speaking, right, um, because of 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:03.880 unless you're in New Mexico. Yeah, this is the only 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:06.280 state that allows it just openly. Like if you take 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:10.280 a polygraph like, it's admissible in court yeah, every other state. Um. 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:13.800 Usually the both sides have to agree on it being 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:17.159 admitted or um. The judge has to say, yeah, we're 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:20.639 gonna admit this one, right, Yeah. And federally, the judge 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:24.359 decides whether or not they're going to admit it, right, 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:26.920 And I guess state judges kind of follow that federal 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:31.359 ruling of polygraphing. Yeah, And it's sort of a crapshoot 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:33.600 if a federal judge is gonna allow it or not. 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:36.760 There's no precedent really to where they say we have 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:39.959 to or we don't have to. Right. So, what are 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:47.000 the problems with this um? The problems with a polygraph 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:49.880 um or that it's subjective, Right, that's a big one. 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:54.040 But also because there because it's subjective, you can get 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:58.480 what are called false positives and false negatives. Yeah, and 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:01.000 you don't want that because then the test itself is 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:04.560 just not valid. Right. Uh. But I mean that a 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:08.920 lot of people use that as evidence that polygraph polygraphy 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:12.320 shouldn't be done at all, that it's not valid. False 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:18.040 positive and polygraph thing is when you find somebody who 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:22.200 is deemed deceptive but was telling the truth. False negative 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:26.520 is when somebody who wasn't telling the truth UM is 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:30.480 deemed truthful. Like Gary Ridgeway, the Green River killer. They 0:21:30.480 --> 0:21:31.960 had him for a little while and gave him a 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:33.960 polygraph and he passed and they let him go and 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:36.560 he went and killed a bunch more women. All right, 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:39.920 that's right. I didn't know that. Actually, Yeah, there's also 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:42.760 the uh. You know, the federal government is the largest 0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:46.000 uh consumer of these exams, and if you work for 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:48.879 the federal government, you've probably had one to get the job. 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:51.760 But you can't do that in the private sector thanks 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:55.560 to the Polygraph Protection Act Employee Polygraph Protection Act in 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:59.640 the late eighties, they said, you can't force your employees 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:02.640 to do this US. You can request it, but if 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:04.320 they don't want to do it, you can't fire them 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:07.399 because of it. You just can't do it, right, not 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:10.840 in private land, right unless you have a contract with 0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:14.439 the government, and then that's not valid. But yeah, the 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:18.240 the federal government is the largest opponent to him in court, 0:22:19.119 --> 0:22:23.840 but also the largest consumer. And imagine that, UM. And 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:26.280 there's been a lot of cases that shaped its admissibility 0:22:26.359 --> 0:22:29.080 or not. But the polygraph it seems like it's kind 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:31.960 of honest way out. I wrote an article about UM 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:35.320 M R I being used as lie detectors, and that's 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:37.359 starting to kind of come into fashion the more we 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:40.119 start to understand, like how lies are born in the brain, 0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:43.000 being able to see it and saying this is the 0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:47.320 pattern that will happen. UM. If this person is lying 0:22:47.359 --> 0:22:49.479 and then that pattern happens, they say, what, we know 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:51.960 you're lying. We just saw that live form in your brain. 0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:54.600 That makes sense, yes, But at the same time, people 0:22:54.640 --> 0:22:59.240 who understand MR eyes say, is way too early to 0:22:59.240 --> 0:23:01.800 be doing that. And even if we can do it 0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:05.480 with accuracy, there are a lot of moral and ethical 0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:08.120 questions to it as well that we need to address. 0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:14.280 First always uh and then penile plus demography. What's that? So? 0:23:14.600 --> 0:23:18.320 Remember the the UM newmeographs that go around the chest 0:23:18.359 --> 0:23:22.000 and the abdomen. Imagine one of those that goes around 0:23:22.000 --> 0:23:24.359 the penis and it does the same thing. It the 0:23:24.440 --> 0:23:29.840 text changes in contraction and girth. It's a perfect way 0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:33.240 to put it UM and it's used to detect arousal. 0:23:33.280 --> 0:23:36.560 They use it for UM sex offenders. It's under at 0:23:36.640 --> 0:23:42.040 least as much attack as regular UM polygraphs. But I 0:23:42.080 --> 0:23:45.400 wrote this blog post called UM using science to root 0:23:45.440 --> 0:23:49.239 out late in homosexuality among homophobes. A study at U 0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:55.679 g A used UH penile pleas plesismography UM to find 0:23:55.840 --> 0:24:00.600 if anyone who they had deemed homophobic be came aroused 0:24:00.600 --> 0:24:06.000 to inexposed to homosexual pornography. Yeah, it's it's one of 0:24:06.000 --> 0:24:09.600 the better posts I've ever written. Cheese, all right, that's 0:24:09.640 --> 0:24:15.879 our future. I guess peno pleathismography for everyone, everyone with 0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:18.600 a penis at least and then chuck. Lastly, I want 0:24:18.600 --> 0:24:21.960 to encourage everybody, if this has piqued your interest about 0:24:22.000 --> 0:24:26.000 lie detectors, to go watch the shoe Court shoe store 0:24:26.080 --> 0:24:30.359 job interview clip from Mr Show on YouTube. You remember 0:24:30.359 --> 0:24:33.600 that one. It's very good weather friend Paula Thompkins and 0:24:33.680 --> 0:24:38.440 he has a breakthrough. Was seeing that one? Yeah, yeah, 0:24:38.600 --> 0:24:41.200