1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: Hello there, it's me Josh and for this week's s 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: Y s K Selects, I've chosen our classic episode on 3 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 1: Lie Detectors. It's a pretty nifty little episode about a 4 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: pretty dodgy piece of forensic science with a wow of 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 1: a backstory. It is classic stuff you should know, so 6 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: a production of My Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, 8 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. With me 9 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: is always as Charles to be Chuck Bryant liar you 10 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: you could tell there's the ways you can find out 11 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: Chuck Um. We'll get to that in a minute. This 12 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: is stuff you should know. Let me finish, Okay, and 13 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: it's you lie. Remember that guy, Yeah, Joe joey Pants 14 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: or whatever the congressman's name. Yeah, Saturday Night Live a 15 00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: funny skit that he had gotten a whole group of 16 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: people to all stayed up at once, wasn't the deal? 17 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: Tell it? And well, yeah, and he supposed he had 18 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: a whole group of senators that we're gonna all stand 19 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: up and yell you lie. And then he was the 20 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:12,759 Speaker 1: only one that did it. That's because he was out 21 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: of the room when they were like, no, we can't 22 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: do that, that's funny. Yeah. So um, oh, we're talking 23 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 1: about a lot of detectors. But let me take you back, 24 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: all right to a little place in time and space 25 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 1: called the jazz age early nineteen twenties. Yeah. No, that's 26 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,479 Speaker 1: the beat Knicks that did that. Okay, Um, I'm sure 27 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 1: a jazz person snapped their fingers at one point. Sure, um, 28 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:44,119 Speaker 1: but not like that, all right. It was more like 29 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: like Coltrane style, just like that. Anyway. This is Chuck 30 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: in Berkeley, California, at u c l A, Berkeley, And 31 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: there is a place there called, um, the College Hall, 32 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: which was a women's dorm. And in that year there 33 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: were a theft, a string of there was a string 34 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: of um thefts, cash rings, um, pretty much anything of 35 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: value went missing for a little while there. And uh, 36 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: there's a man working at the Berkeley Police Department in 37 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 1: the girl's dorm. Yeah, okay, called College Hall. There was 38 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,399 Speaker 1: a man working in the in the Berkeley Police Department's 39 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: name is John Larson. And John Larson was the first 40 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: cop ever to have a pH d. And he had 41 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: gotten interested in this device called a cardio neumo psychograph 42 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: which had been invented just a few years before by 43 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: another guy named William Marston. And William Marston was a 44 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: lawyer in a Harvard shrink and he also as an 45 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: aside creative wonder Woman with her Lasso of truth. Really, 46 00:02:55,680 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 1: he's the guy who invented the what's now called the polygraph. 47 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: What about the wonder Woman? He created Wonder Woman, the character. 48 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: He was kind of a renaissance man. But that's William Marston. 49 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: John Larson works at the at the Berkeley Police Department 50 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: and he's become interested in this thing, the cardio neumo psychograph, 51 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: and he realizes, okay, this is a perfect chance to 52 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: apply it. So he rounds up, you know, some suspects. 53 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 1: He does some some normal police work and finds out 54 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: who the suspects are in this in this hall, and 55 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: he rounds him up, brings him down the station, and 56 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 1: he starts hooking people up to this um this machine. 57 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: And he gets to this one woman, her name is 58 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: Helen Graham, and guilty, yes, pretty much is what he does. 59 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: He goes, ms. Graham, this machine is saying that you're 60 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: that you took this, that you you took the money, 61 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: you know, did you? Um and he said that he 62 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: noted on the machine a sharp dropping blood pressure followed 63 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: by a sudden rise. And then after that this woman 64 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: flew into a rage. She tried to attack the machine. 65 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: She went crazy. So they they basically stringer along for 66 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: a few days, and then finally she confesses, and it's 67 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: the first time that a polygraph was ever used to 68 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: to um solve a crime. Ever, that that was probably 69 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: the heyday because before the people knew what it was, 70 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: they could just say this machine says that you're guilty, 71 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: and they would be like, oh my god, that's exactly right. 72 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: Very early on, some of the early proponents, specifically a 73 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: guy named a Leonard Keeler, um recognized the placebo effect 74 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 1: value before anyone knew there was a placebo effect, but 75 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: the placebo effect value of a polygraph. That just the idea, 76 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 1: if you believed in this machine and that it could 77 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: rude outlies, then it could force you to confess just 78 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: being hooked up to it. You weren't going to pass it. 79 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: They should have called it the guilt box. They called 80 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: it the magic lie detector is one of the one 81 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:51,799 Speaker 1: of the things that they called it. Yeah, Leonard Keeler 82 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 1: called it that he worked with John Larson at the 83 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 1: Berkeley Police Department, and eventually, over time John Larson saw 84 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: the what he considered the true youth behind the light 85 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: detector and the fact that it kept being cold light detector, 86 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 1: which is driving him crazy. Um, and he eventually distanced 87 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: himself from it later on in his career. Um, but 88 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 1: Leonard Keeler ran around marketing it to anyone and everyone saying, 89 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: just having this is going to not only help you 90 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:23,359 Speaker 1: hire um, more more truthful, forthright people, but it's going 91 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: to keep them in line while they're working for you, 92 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: because they know you've got access to this thing and 93 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: you can strap them to it at any time. Yeah, 94 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 1: so that's where the polygraph came from. Yeah, there's a 95 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: little prehistory to just to give them their due. Uh. 96 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: In eight Cesaire Lambroso, he's an Italian criminologist. He measured 97 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: changes in blood pressure for police cases. In a nineteen 98 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: o four a device by Vittorio Binosi measured breathing and 99 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: so they were early nineteen hundreds, late eighteen hundreds. They 100 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: were kind of on the scene of of measuring these things. 101 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 1: And Dr James Mackenzie in nineteen o six first mentioned 102 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: the word polygraph with his instrument that he didn't use 103 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,840 Speaker 1: to root out the truth, but for uh he did 104 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: use it when giving medical examination though. And then right 105 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: before the polygraph was the unigraph unigraph, which was part 106 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: of what's still used today in the polygraph. Um, it 107 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: measured respiration. Pretty cool, yeah, um, but then you add 108 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 1: to it a couple of other things and you got 109 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: the polygraph. We could stop here. This is interesting enough 110 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: right now. So there's no uh you really, there's no um, 111 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: no one walking the planet who has anything to do 112 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 1: with polygraphs that call them lie detectors, And anyone, even 113 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 1: the most ardent defender of polygraph technology would correct you 114 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: if you called it a lie detector. They would be like, 115 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: it's it's not a lie detector because you can't detect 116 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: a lie. It's possible. The whole basis of a polygraph 117 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 1: is that it is a set of um medical instruments 118 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: that used to measure changes in things like your heart rate, 119 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: your respiration, UM and sweatiness. Basically, I would fail. Um, well, 120 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: a lot of people do fail, and we'll get to that. 121 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: But um, oh, because you're sweat that's okay. They would 122 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: they would even hook me up. Um. So when you're 123 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: hooked up to this machine, the whole point is that 124 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: it measures these physiological changes in the idea that there 125 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: you're going to undergo physiological changes based on the concept 126 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: that a person hooked to this machine who is guilty 127 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: will experience fear that they're going to be detected. So 128 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: this machine is designed to detect that fear. That's right, 129 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: which is really round about. But for a century almost 130 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: these things were used, um and abused, and it took 131 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,559 Speaker 1: a while for people that to catch on that. There's 132 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: a lot to criticize here with polygraphs, Yeah, for sure. 133 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: All right, so let's get into this um. First of all, 134 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: we need to point out that analog polygraphs are what 135 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 1: you have long seen in movies and TV when they 136 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: have the little jittery looks like a seismograph on the 137 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: on the paper scrolling by, and uh, you're hooked up 138 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: to all these different things on your chest, in your 139 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: forehead and your fingertips. These days they do that digitally, 140 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 1: but it's basically still the same technique. They just don't 141 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: use the little scrolling needle. Do They have a name 142 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: for that. It's called an inkfield pen. It is. Yeah. 143 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: But the three things that they do, Josh, They measure 144 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: your respiratory rate, as you said, They take newmgraphs, which 145 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: are rubber tubes filled with air time around your chest 146 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,559 Speaker 1: and your abdomen, and that is going to measure whether 147 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: or not you're you know, you start breathing heavy essentially 148 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: when you get nervous. It monitors your breathing pattern and 149 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: any changes to it, and it does it pretty cleverly. Right. Yeah. 150 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: With bellows, it they're filled with air. So when you 151 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: when you breathe in real deeply or have a change, 152 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: it's going to displace that into the bellows and that 153 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: will Originally that was attached, the bellows were literally attached 154 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 1: to the mechanical arm that showed the change. These days, 155 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: as a it's a transducer that converts it digitally electronically, right, 156 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: it converts it to an electrical pattern, right, Yeah, that 157 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 1: probably just says for the same thing. Yeah, um no, 158 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 1: I think it looks a lot like it if you look. 159 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 1: There's a picture of a modern one and it looks 160 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: just like But yeah, it's not. It's not a paper 161 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: read out any longer, which is kind of interesting. Like 162 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 1: this technology hasn't hasn't changed on a very fundamental basis 163 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 1: for like a hundred years almost. Yeah, I mean the 164 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: early one from Mackenzie in nineteen o six. They say 165 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 1: that a lot of the same components are still very 166 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:17,199 Speaker 1: similar today. Right. Um. You also are going to have 167 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: so you're gonna have two tubes, one around your chest, 168 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: one around your abdomen. It's um keeping an eye on 169 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: your breathing. Um. You're going to have a blood pressure 170 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: cuff which um, which keeps an eye on your heart 171 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: rate and your blood pressure, and it does it through sound, right. Yeah, 172 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: I didn't realize this. So when you're when the blood 173 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 1: comes in and out of your veins, it creates sound, 174 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: and sound can also be used to displace air, causing 175 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: a bellows to contract, which again moved the arm on 176 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: the scroll and now is created or turned into an 177 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: electrical pattern. Um, but it's the same thing, but it's sound, 178 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: which I just think is very neat. Well, and what's 179 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: also neat is the sweat one. I figured they would 180 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: have some sort of like a moisturerometer just to detect moisture, 181 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: but it's called galvanic skin resistance or GSR or electrodermal activity, 182 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: that's right. And they hook up these fingerplates to galvanometers 183 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: and they are basically measuring the skin's ability to conduct electricity. 184 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: And if your skin is moist, it's going to be 185 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: able to conduct electricity easier. And that's what they're measuring there. 186 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: It's like the ones the little um heart rate monitors 187 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: that they clip to your fingertips in the hospital, but 188 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: these things measure electricity instead, uh, which if you are dry, 189 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: you're going to conduct less electricity, if you're wet, you're 190 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,199 Speaker 1: going to conduct more. So since you have so many 191 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 1: pores on the end of your fingers and you sweat 192 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:54,079 Speaker 1: when you're nervous. There you got done. So you put 193 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: all this together and um, it paints this picture. It's 194 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: the A. C. L U among other people, have decried 195 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: as just what are you doing here? Basically is what 196 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: the A C l U says, right, Um, what what 197 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: you have is a picture of a person who is 198 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: undergoing stress, maybe feeling embarrassment, is maybe just scared to 199 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: be there, uh, maybe doesn't like having things wrapped around 200 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: his or her chest. Um, maybe doesn't really like the 201 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:32,439 Speaker 1: person asking the questions. The results of these these UM 202 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: changes in pattern. The data is totally subjective, that's right, 203 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: which makes polygraphs totally subjective, which takes it in large 204 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: part out of the realm of science. Yeah, voodoo science 205 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: is what they call it. And uh, all the proponents 206 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: will say that a well trained forensic psychophysiologists which is 207 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: the examiner, can get through all that to still get 208 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,319 Speaker 1: a good result. They're like, yeah, they know all this stuff, 209 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: and if you're good, then you can factor that in 210 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: and still get a good result. So let's talk about 211 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: what the forensic psychophysiologist does. There's apparently I've seen anywhere 212 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: between five thousand and ten thousand of them in the 213 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: US at any given time, UM, and some of them 214 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: belong to professional organizations. I think probably maybe half or third, 215 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: depending on where you are on the on the estimate, 216 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: UM belonged to any number of professional organizations. Some have 217 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: no accreditation whatsoever, um, but are still able to open 218 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: up shops depending on the state there in. Some states 219 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: have zero laws about being a forensic psychophysiologist a k 220 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: A polygraph examiner. That's right, but there is also some 221 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: there are programs out there. Uh. The who wrote this article, 222 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,719 Speaker 1: Kevin bondser I don't know. I think so he he 223 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: UM interviewed a guy who founded the Accidon Academy exit 224 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: Haunt as a manufacturer of polygraphs, and they founded this 225 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: academy as well, where um, you go through a certain 226 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 1: amount of training to become a forensic psychophysiologist. And he 227 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: actually interviewed that guy. Yeah, his name's Bobb Lee Lee. Uh, 228 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: and Lee says that if you come to their academy, UM, 229 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: you have to have a baccalaurea degree bachelor's right, or 230 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: you have to have at least five years investigative experience 231 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: and an associate's degree. Um, you have to take a 232 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: ten week course, and after you complete the ten week course, 233 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: you have to carry out twenty five polygraph examinations and 234 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: submit them to be reviewed. Uh. So these are like 235 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: real life ones. I guess you're working with your local 236 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: police department or whatever. Maybe you're already a cop UM 237 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: and you have to submit it to the Accident Academy 238 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: board for a review. And then once they're all reviewed 239 00:14:55,960 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: and everybody's all thumbs up, you are a life since 240 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: I guess. But you're not licensed because there's no licensing body. Um, 241 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: you are you graduate? I guess is is what they 242 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: call it. So that's as accredited as it gets. I guess. 243 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: And like you said, Um, proponents of polygraph testing say 244 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: that there, if you're a good FP, you're gonna be 245 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: able to structure everything correctly so that you can see 246 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: past somebody who's just who sweats a lot like you, 247 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: or who gets stressed out easily like me, Um, and 248 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: design your questions appropriately, and you're gonna be able to 249 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: to to figure out whether this person is deceptive or not. 250 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: So how how would you do that? Chuck? Well, we 251 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: should talk about the test itself. I guess. Uh, you're 252 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: gonna you're gonna go in and you're gonna get a 253 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: pretest before you get strapped up to anything. Could take 254 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: about an hour. This is just you and those the 255 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: only two people in the room. You're not surrounded by 256 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: folks like in the movies and stuff, although a movie 257 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: sometimes it's just two people, I guess. But the pretest 258 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: that you're just going to get an interview basically about 259 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: basically about why you're being investigated. Uh, they're also gonna 260 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: be profiling you and checking you out and just seeing 261 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: what kind of questions you respond to and what might 262 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: make you nervous, just so they'll be better informed about 263 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: how to properly question you once you're all strapped in 264 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: right and the pretest where you're just kind of hanging 265 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: out with them casually, the examiners also kind of getting 266 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: info out of you that you might not be aware of, like, um, 267 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: if you are uh, if you talk leisurely about your 268 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: favorite beer at one point and how you like it 269 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: a lot, and then later on it also comes up 270 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: that you have to drive a lot um, they might 271 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: come up with it. They might use that for a 272 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: control question, UM, which could be something like have you 273 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: ever driven under the influence of alcohol? And a control 274 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: question is something where you would have to admit guilt um, 275 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: and you may not want to, but it's such a 276 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: broad question that just about anybody is guilty of it, 277 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 1: like have you ever lied to somebody? Have you ever 278 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 1: um stolen anything? That kind of thing, So where if 279 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 1: you say no, they now have a baseline for what 280 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: it looks like when you lie. That they can make 281 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: a reasonable assumption that you have just lied. And any 282 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: of the data UM captured on the polygraph they're going 283 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: to use to analyze everything else off of. And that's 284 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: pretty much it. That's the test, and afterward you have 285 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: the post tests where they look at all the data 286 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: and chart out whether or not they think you're deceptive 287 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: and aware. Like on this question you were deceptive. On 288 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 1: this question you may have been deceptive. It's kind of 289 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 1: hard to tell. On this one you definitely were deceptive. 290 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: So so, and it's all in it's all in relation 291 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: to that control question, that baseline, right, So if you 292 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: if your deception, if you if on questions where I mean, 293 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: they're going to have to talk to the police as 294 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 1: well too and say what do you want to know 295 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 1: out of this person? So they'll design questions around that 296 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 1: as well. Um, so they may have a question like, um, 297 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: are you wearing a blue shirt? That may be question one, 298 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: it's irrelevant, right. Question two is, um, have you ever 299 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: lied to your boss? That's the control question, and then 300 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: question three is something like you know, did you steal 301 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: the cookie from the cookie jar? Like that's the one 302 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: that the cops want them to ask. They'll compare the 303 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 1: results of Q three against Q two and if they're 304 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: the same or you can't really tell, that's in UH 305 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: in that that's an UH inconclusive tests. So that's it. 306 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: I mean, like you said, that's that's polygraph. It's pretty easy, 307 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 1: it is. It's Uh, it's um jar ringly easy, considering 308 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: that it's used in legal cases a lot, right, Yes, 309 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 1: that's true. Um. People try to to battle the LDE 310 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 1: detector in various ways or a little tricks that the 311 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: Internet says works, like taking a sedative or putting any 312 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: perspirint on your fingers, which seems like they would make 313 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: you wash your hands, Uh, putting attack in your shoe, 314 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: and anytime you get asked a question, every single time 315 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: you stomp on the tack. And the idea is that 316 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: you're just gonna skew the tests so they all look 317 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: the same, so your body has the same reaction no 318 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: matter what's going on, like they I guess, if you 319 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: press on the tack, your physiological response could overwhelm any 320 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:45,120 Speaker 1: response to the question. Right. Um, Like I said, there, 321 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: these these things are used in legal cases, but with caveats. Right. 322 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: If you undergo a polygraph, Uh, whether you fail or pass, 323 00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter legally speaking, right, um, because of 324 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,880 Speaker 1: unless you're in New Mexico. Yeah, this is the only 325 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: state that allows it just openly. Like if you take 326 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: a polygraph like, it's admissible in court yeah, every other state. Um. 327 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: Usually the both sides have to agree on it being 328 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 1: admitted or um. The judge has to say, yeah, we're 329 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 1: gonna admit this one, right, Yeah. And federally, the judge 330 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: decides whether or not they're going to admit it, right, 331 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 1: And I guess state judges kind of follow that federal 332 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: ruling of polygraphing. Yeah, And it's sort of a crapshoot 333 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: if a federal judge is gonna allow it or not. 334 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: There's no precedent really to where they say we have 335 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,959 Speaker 1: to or we don't have to. Right. So, what are 336 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: the problems with this um? The problems with a polygraph 337 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 1: um or that it's subjective, Right, that's a big one. 338 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: But also because there because it's subjective, you can get 339 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: what are called false positives and false negatives. Yeah, and 340 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: you don't want that because then the test itself is 341 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: just not valid. Right. Uh. But I mean that a 342 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: lot of people use that as evidence that polygraph polygraphy 343 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: shouldn't be done at all, that it's not valid. False 344 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: positive and polygraph thing is when you find somebody who 345 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: is deemed deceptive but was telling the truth. False negative 346 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: is when somebody who wasn't telling the truth UM is 347 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: deemed truthful. Like Gary Ridgeway, the Green River killer. They 348 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: had him for a little while and gave him a 349 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 1: polygraph and he passed and they let him go and 350 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: he went and killed a bunch more women. All right, 351 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 1: that's right. I didn't know that. Actually, Yeah, there's also 352 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: the uh. You know, the federal government is the largest 353 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: uh consumer of these exams, and if you work for 354 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 1: the federal government, you've probably had one to get the job. 355 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: But you can't do that in the private sector thanks 356 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: to the Polygraph Protection Act Employee Polygraph Protection Act in 357 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 1: the late eighties, they said, you can't force your employees 358 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 1: to do this US. You can request it, but if 359 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: they don't want to do it, you can't fire them 360 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 1: because of it. You just can't do it, right, not 361 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 1: in private land, right unless you have a contract with 362 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,439 Speaker 1: the government, and then that's not valid. But yeah, the 363 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: the federal government is the largest opponent to him in court, 364 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: but also the largest consumer. And imagine that, UM. And 365 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of cases that shaped its admissibility 366 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: or not. But the polygraph it seems like it's kind 367 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: of honest way out. I wrote an article about UM 368 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: M R I being used as lie detectors, and that's 369 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 1: starting to kind of come into fashion the more we 370 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: start to understand, like how lies are born in the brain, 371 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: being able to see it and saying this is the 372 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: pattern that will happen. UM. If this person is lying 373 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,479 Speaker 1: and then that pattern happens, they say, what, we know 374 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: you're lying. We just saw that live form in your brain. 375 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: That makes sense, yes, But at the same time, people 376 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: who understand MR eyes say, is way too early to 377 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: be doing that. And even if we can do it 378 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: with accuracy, there are a lot of moral and ethical 379 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,120 Speaker 1: questions to it as well that we need to address. 380 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: First always uh and then penile plus demography. What's that? So? 381 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: Remember the the UM newmeographs that go around the chest 382 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: and the abdomen. Imagine one of those that goes around 383 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 1: the penis and it does the same thing. It the 384 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: text changes in contraction and girth. It's a perfect way 385 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: to put it UM and it's used to detect arousal. 386 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: They use it for UM sex offenders. It's under at 387 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: least as much attack as regular UM polygraphs. But I 388 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 1: wrote this blog post called UM using science to root 389 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,239 Speaker 1: out late in homosexuality among homophobes. A study at U 390 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:55,679 Speaker 1: g A used UH penile pleas plesismography UM to find 391 00:23:55,840 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: if anyone who they had deemed homophobic be came aroused 392 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: to inexposed to homosexual pornography. Yeah, it's it's one of 393 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: the better posts I've ever written. Cheese, all right, that's 394 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 1: our future. I guess peno pleathismography for everyone, everyone with 395 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: a penis at least and then chuck. Lastly, I want 396 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: to encourage everybody, if this has piqued your interest about 397 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: lie detectors, to go watch the shoe Court shoe store 398 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: job interview clip from Mr Show on YouTube. You remember 399 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: that one. It's very good weather friend Paula Thompkins and 400 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: he has a breakthrough. Was seeing that one? Yeah, yeah, 401 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: good old p f T yep. And that's it for 402 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: lie detectors, right, Yeah. I want to take a test. 403 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: If there's someone in the Atlanta area that administers these 404 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: and would be willing to give me a lie detector test, 405 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,719 Speaker 1: I would love to do that, Okay, and I'll watch 406 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: yes UM as long as I can, you know, approve 407 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: the questions or not approve them. But I don't want 408 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 1: to be like rooted out as some miscreant. That's a 409 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: little late for that. Just keep it above board. UM. 410 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 1: If you want to know more about lie detectors and 411 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: play with some Lie detector flash animation, you can do 412 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: that by typing in lie detector on this in the 413 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 1: search bar on how stuff works dot com and UM, 414 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 1: that means it's time for listener mail. That's right, Josh. 415 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: This is from Brad and Brad. If you remember, we 416 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,400 Speaker 1: had a list of suggestions from a listener not too 417 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 1: long ago that thought our podcast could be a lot 418 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,159 Speaker 1: better if we changed a few things. Brad has some 419 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: suggestions of his own of how we can make the 420 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 1: podcast better. We should both have nicknames zazz up the 421 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: actual name like welcome to stuff you should Know with 422 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: j C and the Dingo, sit back while getting a 423 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: big helping of knowledge from Chucko and the Duck. I 424 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: second the suggestion to remove the personal anecdotes should be 425 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,880 Speaker 1: moved to a separate podcast called the Josh and Chuck Memoirs. 426 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: Daily one hour podcasts can recount your lives from birth 427 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,400 Speaker 1: to present, focusing on depressing stories that are marginally factual. 428 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: It's in development, Chuck, please your raise your voice one octave, 429 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,919 Speaker 1: Josh lower yours one octave. What okay? So now this 430 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 1: is how I talk to the opening of the podcast 431 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: should be a description of what each of you ate 432 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 1: that day and the number of trips to the bathroom. 433 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: This allows the listener to keep track at home. Hedgehogs, 434 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 1: brain surgeons, arcades, and Bolivian politics are underrated, under sorry, 435 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: underrepresented on your podcast at least should be about these subjects. 436 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: Do not exclude listener mail. Instead, create a quieter audio 437 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: track reading the listener mail and overlay it on the 438 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 1: rest of the podcast. That way, listeners can hear both 439 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: the mail and the main content at the same time. 440 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: This is a pretty good idea. Why not set the 441 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: pod we literally driving people in Spain? If we did that, 442 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: why not set the podcast to a backdrop of tribal 443 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: drums and jungle animal noises would give it an exotic feel. 444 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 1: That's over the listener mail track, over the whole thing, 445 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: So that'd be three tracks deep. Yes, and it would 446 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: lead to suspense for the listener to wonder if you 447 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: will be eaten by jaguars? Uh. And it was clear 448 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 1: from the podcast on Mummies neither of you had ever 449 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: been mummified. Please refrain from explaining topics that you don't 450 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 1: have personal experience with. And then the final suggestion, just 451 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: retail episodes of this American Life that went that last 452 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,439 Speaker 1: one went down like the Dave Glitterman top. Finally, so 453 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 1: that's Brad, Thanks brand. Those are all great ideas. Three 454 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: tracks all in one, streaming at once together listener mail 455 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: quietly to podcast and tribal drumming and jungle noises. Yes, um, 456 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: let's see. If you have access to a polygraph and 457 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: want to hook chuck up to it, let us know. 458 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: You can let us know on Facebook at facebook dot com, 459 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: slash stuff you Should Know, You can tweet to set 460 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,159 Speaker 1: s y s k podcast, and you can send us 461 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: a regular old email at stuff podcast at how stuff 462 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 1: works dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production 463 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for 464 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 465 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows