1 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: That is the zipper of my suitcase, and it is 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: one of the most emotionally loaded sounds of my life 3 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: as a touring musician. That noise means its van call, 4 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: your morning deadline to meet all your bandmates in the 5 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: hotel parking lot, and you are frantically packing, running mental checklists, toothbrush, 6 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 1: who bearings, water bottle, sleep mask thing, and you're zipping 7 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: your suitcase hoping that the seems hold as you lean 8 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: on it, smashing your entire life like a Panini, trying 9 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: to fit all the possessions you'll need for the next 10 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,840 Speaker 1: span of weeks or months into a two inch wheely 11 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: carry on and a Duffel bag okay, and yet living 12 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: out of only a couple of bags. I almost always 13 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: packed something that never gets used, address that doesn't make 14 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: it on stage, a book I don't end up cracking, 15 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:53,599 Speaker 1: which begs the question, if I don't really need all 16 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: this stuff in this carry on, then what the heck 17 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: is all the stuff at home for the drill that 18 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: I can't find? The power cord floor, the velcrow curlers, 19 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: the box full of power chords, none of them fitting 20 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: the drill. Living light for a while can make an 21 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: apartment feel like a walk in junk drawer of heart 22 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: to part with bits and pieces. I'm Dessa. This is 23 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 1: deeply human. Presuming you're not a hardcore ascetic tuning in 24 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: on a d I Y crystal radio, you probably have 25 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: some stuff you don't really need, maybe even more than 26 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: you want. So why are humans so driven to a 27 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,559 Speaker 1: choir collect and even horde? Why do you own so much? 28 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 1: And when does your stuff start to own you? The 29 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: Royal Charter was a ship which sank off the coasts 30 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: of Wales actually on this route to Liverpool from the 31 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: gold fields of Australia. Sank in eighteen fifty nine and 32 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: I think loss about six lives. What made this tragic 33 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: According to reports, many of the people who drowned they 34 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: were the miners who were carrying the gold on them 35 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: and money belts. They drowned because they wouldn't let go 36 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: of all the gold that they were carrying. And that goal, 37 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: by the way, is washing up on the shores of 38 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: North Wales as we speak. Prospectives are going out to 39 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: try and retrieve it. That is Bruce Hood, professor of 40 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: developmental psychology at the University of Bristol in England, Bruce 41 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: wrote a book called Possessed, which explores why humans strive 42 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: to own so much stuff. But before we can examine 43 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: the motives buried in our golumy little hearts, we've got 44 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: to get some terms straight. Possession versus ownership. Bruce, possession 45 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: is the physical control of an item, usually a material thing, 46 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:42,239 Speaker 1: whereas ownership is a convention of social contract, whereby people 47 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: are recognized to have control over something in perpetuity even 48 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: when they're not there. So it's like, this is my 49 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: spoon when it's in my best possession, This is my 50 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: spoon when it's in the drawer and I'm asleep. Ownership, 51 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: that's it. As a general rule, the rest of the 52 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: animal world doesn't own item in the same way we do. 53 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: Possible exceptions might be the California sea otter, known to 54 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 1: store one stone in a special little pouch, a handy 55 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: tool for whatever they've got, a crack open a mollusk shell, 56 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: and some birds like rooks or Jay's are known to 57 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: play with bottle caps, marbles, and other shiny treasures and 58 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 1: bury their personal cash for safe keeping. But usually even 59 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: if animals possess an object, a stick used for termite 60 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: hunting say, they just discard it when they're done with it. 61 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: When humans are young, they don't really get the idea 62 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: of ownership either. They think if you can't control something, 63 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: you can't own them. So yeah, so if they think 64 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: you're a sleeper in a comor you're tied up, you 65 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: can't own something, because they have used this issue of 66 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: control as a basis for establishing possession and for the 67 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: basis of later ownership. We enter the world with no stuff, 68 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: only a little plastic hospital bracelet announcing the names. Somebody 69 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: just bestowed upon us our first bit of intellectual property, 70 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: I suppose. But so somebody sets it up with a blanket, 71 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: a passive fire, a stuffed bunny. You learn the word mine, 72 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: and you wear it out, and the great acquisition has begun. 73 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: Before long, we're outgrowing shoes, sleeping on our very own 74 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: big kid bed, maybe cruising around and a sweet rides 75 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: on training wheels. Even in modern homes of pretty modest means, 76 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: there's usually a bunch of stuff. Then you're full grown 77 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 1: and it's time to move out, find a gig, maybe 78 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: partner up with somebody and get a place of your own. 79 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: We had two front seats in the volks fucking and 80 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: then wait to put all of our worldly goods in 81 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: the back. It was the most exciting time in my life. 82 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: I would say that's Candy Hyatt for counting her experience 83 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: of this particular life stage to go out and make 84 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: a home for thine self. Part She'd grown up in 85 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: New York, but headed out west with her guide Jack 86 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 1: to start a life together. And they set off with 87 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: only a car load of essentials, but she brought a 88 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 1: handful of precious items with her too. And I played 89 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: violin all the way through high school and then just 90 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: for enjoyment, and I had an antique box with diaries 91 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: in it. They landed in Colorado, bought some land on 92 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: Sugar Loaf Mountain, and Jack started to build a house 93 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,239 Speaker 1: using all sorts of salvage materials. We had the bumper 94 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: car pavilion floor from ilitch Is, which was an amusement 95 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 1: park in Denver, and we had radiators from Shannon's, which 96 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: was a biker bar in Boulder. They were those old 97 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 1: metal banded up with a one of a kind home 98 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: full of red stuff and unusual features stories built right 99 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: into the walls. They had a little girl and the 100 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:46,359 Speaker 1: boy went into family mode, the years unspooling as years do, 101 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: but then everything went off script. In nine we went 102 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: on a vacation. We were watching the news and we 103 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:02,679 Speaker 1: saw I think it was CNN, they said a fire 104 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: is raging out of control in Boulder, Colorado. I said, wow, 105 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: that looks like our road, and I'm known to catastrophize. 106 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: So Jack said, no, that's not our road. That's further 107 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: west than us. Everything's fine, don't worry, but not too much. 108 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: Later the phone rang. One of my best friends who 109 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: lived in town in Boulder called me and said, is 110 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: Jack there, which is never a good question. You know 111 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: you're going to hear some bad news and maybe pass out, 112 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 1: so they want they want somebody there with you. I 113 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: said yes, and she said there's a fire in your neighborhood. 114 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,919 Speaker 1: Everything is not fine. And I had a picture in 115 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: my mind of a corner of the house being gone, 116 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: or maybe the curtains having caught em fire. But then 117 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: she said it's gone, it's all gone. Oh gosh, the 118 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: house exploded before the flames even got there because it 119 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: was so hot. Wow. I have a few tears in 120 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: my eyes. Um. When we came back, we stood at 121 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: the foundation and looked down into the hole that was 122 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: left the house Jack built, my hand gone, the antique violin, 123 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: all her diaries gone, and everything had fallen down into 124 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: the foundation, and you could still see the words on 125 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: the pages, even though everything was all burned, and some 126 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: of that was my journals. Oh my god, I'm so sorry. 127 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: It was quite a lot. Candy and Jack had less 128 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: than when they started. And I would also say that 129 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: the fire was kind of the beginning of our splitting 130 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: up to their marriage didn't survive the fire. Candy says 131 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: that was partly because Jack's connection to the place was 132 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: incinerated along with all their stuff. The emotional link was 133 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: broken when the material anchors gave way, and he wanted 134 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: to leave, to go someplace new. Candy wanted to stay, 135 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: to start again where they were in normal life, you know, 136 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: without the extremes of like fires and floods. Think it 137 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: can be kind of tempting to imagine there's the world 138 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: of stuff and then there's the world of our personal relationships, right, 139 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: But it sounds like those two worlds aren't completely as 140 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: strictly separate. No, they're not, particularly when some of that 141 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: stuff is a house that you've put your heart and 142 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: soul into and your stuff is part of the picture 143 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: that you have, and the picture has your relationships in it, 144 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: and it has your stuff in it. But when all 145 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: of that stuff has gone and the picture has changed 146 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: that dramatically, it changes your personal relationship as well. I 147 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: think years and years ago, I found a half used 148 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: yellow legal pad at my mom's house. On the top page, 149 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: neat straight line had been drawn down the middle, and 150 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:49,559 Speaker 1: there was a short list of stuff on either side, 151 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: elemental stuff like car or house. I don't remember all 152 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: the items exactly because they're obscured by the big wave 153 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: of feelings that hit me when I realized what I 154 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: was looking at. I was looking at my parents divorce. 155 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 1: I'd know only hadn't hired a lawyer to expense it, 156 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: but I'd never considered the mechanics of a d i 157 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: y version of marital dissolution, like two people sitting at 158 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: a table with a pen and a pad, dividing all 159 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: their worldly possessions on either side of a sketched line. 160 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: It was such a sad and humble piece of paper, 161 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: but also deeply moving to me because it was their 162 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: alternative to court dates and legal battles that would have 163 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: divided the assorted possessions of twenty years together. For a while, 164 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: that sheet of paper itself was really precious to me. 165 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:44,599 Speaker 1: We keep things for all sorts of reasons. One of 166 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 1: the most powerful emotional reasons is sentimental value, where people 167 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: will really value something which is of no worth to 168 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: anyone else, but objects form part of our identities. That's 169 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: Bruce again, our developmental psychologist, who, for what it's worth, 170 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: has a soft spot for horror movie posters and golden 171 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: eraw Hollywood stuff and a sidebar. If his voice rings 172 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: familiar to you die hard, deeply human fans out there, 173 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: it's because he made an appearance on the Spooked episode 174 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 1: in season one, or maybe you just went to high 175 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: school with him or something. He says that our ability 176 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: to own things and to catch feelings for him is 177 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,079 Speaker 1: historically linked to the way we grow our food. So, 178 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,719 Speaker 1: you know, when we transition from hunter gatherers into sort 179 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 1: of settling down and farming and raising cattle and things 180 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: like that, and then going off to fight wars, we 181 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: had to have a system of rules, which meant that 182 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: when we came back from the wars, we had our property. 183 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: Is it the case that throughout history we've had really 184 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: different understandings of what kinds of things are eligible for ownership. Yeah, 185 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: so that's absolutely true. So that was the origin of 186 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: a lot of the misunderstandings with the invasion of North 187 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 1: America because the indigenous people didn't have a concept of 188 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: anyone owning the land. That seemed ridiculous. And that's why 189 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: they sold something like Manhattan for forty two hours or 190 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: whatever it was, because they didn't have a kind of 191 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: understanding how that could ever be a binding agreement. And 192 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: now in that same Manhattan, we've expanded our concept of 193 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: ownership to encompass almost mythical realms. You can own other 194 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: people's debt or soybeans that haven't been planted yet. You 195 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: can shot for shoes twenty four hours a day without 196 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: putting on any to leave your own house. You can 197 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: order custom bubbleheads or a bag of Ladybugs delivered to 198 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: your door front of twenty bucks. Our world is a 199 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: veritable bonanza of sale stuff and ownership. I worked with 200 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: one lady, very complex lady, for about ten ten years 201 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: after she had the miscarriage. She was acquiring and awarding 202 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: baby clothes and baby toys in response to that loss. 203 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: That is Joe Cook. She's the director of Hoarding Disorders 204 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: UK and she works with people whose stuff threatens to 205 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: overwhelm the rest of their lives. She got into the 206 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: business of organizing and decluttering because of her own experience 207 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: with her dad. After my father died, it took me 208 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 1: four months to clear the family home out. He was Polish. 209 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 1: He grew up during the war. He remembers his parents 210 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: sacrificing their food to give to him. He hated any 211 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: kind of food waste, but he also hated throwing anything away. 212 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: There are people that have emotional attachments to things where 213 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: they find it difficult to let go of an empty 214 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: Chris packet a newspaper from thirty years ago. Acquiring and 215 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 1: keeping stuff can be a self soothing maneuver, a response 216 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: to loss or uncertainty or scarcity, the emotional installation, as 217 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: I call it. I think we can all relate to 218 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: how we responded to the pandemic. I mean, who didn't 219 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: go out and buy more petrol, Who didn't go out 220 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 1: buy more Loo rolls or extra tins of soup? In 221 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 1: terms of responding to anxious times. But by the time 222 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: a prospective client calls Joe. Their lives have usually reached 223 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: a crisis point. People might not be able to sleep 224 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: in their bed, cook on their oven, or be able 225 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: to use a bath, or it might well be that 226 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: the hoarding has attracted vermin. It can be hard to 227 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: ask for help because hoarding has been so stigmatized in 228 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: pop culture, but that's changing. The World Health Organization now 229 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: treats hoarding behaviors as part of a medical condition. But 230 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: letting go of stuff can be hard for a lot 231 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:44,719 Speaker 1: of us. The declutterer Maria Condo is like an international superstar. 232 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 1: Joe notes that a history of scarcity might make someone 233 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: afraid to toss out even extraneous items, and grief might 234 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: make throwing away a loved one's bathrobe feel like a 235 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 1: denigration of their memory. People are now recognizing that actually, 236 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: body isn't about people that are lazy and dirty. It's 237 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: getting people to recognize and to understand and look at. 238 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: We call it the meaning and the mess, the meaning 239 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,439 Speaker 1: in the mess. Well, let's turn back to Candy, who 240 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: we left standing over a particularly meaningful mess, looking into 241 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: the ashes of her home with Jack. Their split was 242 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: hard and messy at first, but over time, temper is 243 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: cool and Candy moved into a house outside of Boulder, Colorado, 244 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: near enough to Jack's new place, but on the days 245 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: the kids spent with her, they could see him flashing 246 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: a mirror from his porch to say hello. And after 247 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: a walk one day, Candy and a friend stood talking 248 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: in her new home when something caught their eye. We 249 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: were standing oh by a window, and we looked up 250 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: and she said, oh, my god, is that smoke. My 251 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: landline was ringing and it was a reverse nine one 252 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: one call saying you need to evacuate, And I said, 253 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: I think we need to go over to Jack's and 254 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: get stuff out of his house. Another fire was headed 255 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: their way, and both Candy and Jack's new houses were 256 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: in its path. Jack, at that time was headed out 257 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: of town on vacation with his new wife, but Candy 258 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: caught him on the phone. Do you want me to 259 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: go over and get anything? Jack just kind of rolled 260 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: his eyes into there she goes again, catastrophizing it was 261 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: it was a pattern in our relationship. Everything is not fine. 262 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: And then about twenty minutes later he called back and 263 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: he said, well, maybe there's a few things you could get. 264 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: Candy and her friend raced over, and it was already 265 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: so hot that they were afraid the paint on the 266 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: car would melt. Jack's house sitters had already fled. They 267 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: left the door open, so Candy and her friend just 268 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: ran in started putting stuff in boxes, two computers, Jack's briefcase, 269 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: which was essentially his office, the art hanging in the 270 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: kid's rooms. By the time we left, I could see flames. 271 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: We then, probably three hours um, someone called me and 272 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: said that they had heard the propane tank at his 273 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: house explode. It burned to the ground. He lost everything. 274 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: Oh my god. Not everyone would drive into the smoking 275 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: heart of a wildfire, risking life and limb to save 276 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: a few boxes of stuff for her ex husband, even 277 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: after being dismissed as overreactive after the hard divorce. But 278 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: Candy understood what was really at stake, and she knew 279 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: exactly what losing a home and all the things inside 280 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: it could do to somebody's whole life. I think it 281 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: was us against the fire. In my mind, it was like, God, 282 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: damn it, this is not going to happen a second time. 283 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: We are not going to lose everything a second time. 284 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: Bruce Hood argues that our strong compulsion to own and 285 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: keep things is a basic impulse potentially driven by evolutionary forces. 286 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: Collecting property might be a way of signaling our status, 287 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: that our stuff was essentially proof of our fitness. Chest 288 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: pass to Bruce think that humans are inclined to competition 289 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:07,439 Speaker 1: because of well, we were competing to reproduce. And the 290 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 1: more that you have, the more that you're signaling your 291 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,439 Speaker 1: competence or your ability to provide for future generations. So 292 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 1: there's a kind of real imperative to China accumulate as 293 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: much as you can control. According to this theory, our 294 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: possessions were one way to signal status, dominance power. But 295 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: of course our attachment to stuff isn't driven only by 296 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 1: ancient forces. It's also driven by ads on Instagram or 297 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: the fancy window displays on Fifth Avenue. The TV commercials 298 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: were the hottest. A list actor looks into the middle 299 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: distance with an expression of sensuous boredom to help selk alone, 300 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: like it's marketing man, think about something like a celebrity endorsement. 301 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 1: All right, that was something which was meant by John 302 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: Watson is a psychologist academic footnote here. John Watson American 303 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 1: active during the first half of the twentieth century known 304 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: for advertising campaigns that appeal to consumers. Deep psychological means 305 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: if you realize that if you pair certain desirable things together, 306 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,360 Speaker 1: people make the association that owning one will achieve the other. 307 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: And so he just figured, let's get all these celebrities, 308 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 1: these heroes that people worship to smoke certain brands of 309 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: cigarettes or use certain toothpastes, and then that's why people 310 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: would buy it in an attempt to emulate their heroes. Hi, 311 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 1: I'm Dessa, host of the self referential hit program Deeply Human, 312 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: and fans often ask Dessa, with your dulcet voice and 313 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 1: poignant insights on human behavior, what sort of nonstick cookwear 314 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: could you recommend? Is there anything that's easy to clean 315 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: an oven safe? Well, let me tell you. When I'm 316 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,880 Speaker 1: not cooking up another episode of Deeply Human, you can 317 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: find me at the stove using Dessa's Deep Dishes brand 318 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: cookery items. I'm too busy cleaning up of the podcast 319 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: to words to worry about cleaning up pots and pants. 320 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: Enough already, James Faub. When you've got your own brand 321 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 1: of cookery items, holler. Big ad agencies launch huge campaigns 322 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: trying to link consumer goods with status and prestige and 323 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: then pushing in exactly the opposite direction. Is a blogger 324 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: named Mr Money Mustache, a dude who has been called 325 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: the Frugal Guru by The New Yorker. What I realized 326 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: at one point is that I hadn't just started a blog. 327 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: I started sort of a fake ironic cult. Pete aideny 328 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 1: a k a. Mr. Money Mustache is like a cross 329 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 1: between a cartoon gold prospector and a counterculture warrior fighting 330 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 1: conspicuous consumption. He got Internet famous by advocating a low 331 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 1: spend lifestyle and a really aggressive saving strategy. But before 332 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 1: Pete had any money or a mustache, he was a 333 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: boy in a small town of Caledonia in Canada. It's 334 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 1: a working class community with a simple lifestyle. You don't 335 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,360 Speaker 1: really have much to compare yourself against. And I think 336 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: that's a really healthy thing, because human nature is to 337 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: compare ourselves with the richest people and then wonder why 338 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: we can't have that. My dad was a frugal guy 339 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: and he liked to keep things reasonable, So we were 340 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: always like the last family to get the cool stuff, 341 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: the last one to get a microwave, of and last 342 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: one to get a nicer TV or VCR, all these 343 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 1: nighties things that other people had. But what I realized 344 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: later they were fairly well off, like, you know, fairly 345 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 1: middle income, probably higher than some of my friends. But 346 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: we had a lot less stuff. And Pete made note 347 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: it was important not to spend too much of what 348 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: you earned. When he first got a tech job in 349 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: the US, he thought he was making a killing. But 350 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: my co workers are like, oh, yeah, it's just enough. 351 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 1: You know, things are so expensive these days. But he 352 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: built his life to cause less. He biked the commute, 353 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: for example, instead of leasing sleek new wheels. The reason 354 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: I could do that is because I chose to buy 355 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 1: a house that was, you know, within ten miles of 356 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: work or less. And they were driving their mw is 357 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 1: in from a super distant suburb because like, we looked 358 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 1: the same and we had the same salary. But I 359 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: was just able to save like more than half of it, 360 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: and they were saving sometimes zero, going further and further 361 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: into debt over the years. Meanwhile, he was going in 362 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: the other direction, saving and investing a considerable chunk of 363 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: his take home pay, which was possible because he wasn't 364 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 1: buying a ton of stuff, and within about seven or 365 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: eight years that was enough to live off forever, just 366 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: passively off of the you know, the dividends and income 367 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 1: from owning a few shares. Those of you familiar with 368 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: the Fire movements are no doubt yelling at the radio 369 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 1: by now, But for the uninitiated, Pete is one of 370 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: many finance writers connected to a lifestyle trend sometimes referred 371 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: to by the acronym fire financial independence retire Early devotees 372 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: save up to sevent of their annual earnings and are 373 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: generally very eager to talk with you about it. Individual 374 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: mileage berries. But our good rule of thumb is you 375 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: can retire or in about ten years if you're willing 376 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: to live humble and stay super disciplined. The savings at 377 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: up and according to Mr money Mustache, that doesn't have 378 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: to mean crazy sacrifices. Just think of it this way. 379 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: Whatever you're spending is, does anybody in your country live 380 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: on half of your level of spending? And I'm sure 381 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: that answer is yes. And then is it possible that 382 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: any of those people are happy, having like fulfilling, great 383 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 1: happy lives, maybe even more fulfilling than your life. Well, 384 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: you know there's millions of people in every country, so 385 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: you're damn right there is. The fire movement has definitely 386 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: received some heat from being cheap, but Mr money Mustache 387 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: explains it's really about clarifying your priorities. Does buying a 388 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: new wide screen TV really make you happier than if 389 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 1: you just played with your kids for all the hours 390 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: that you spent working to buy the TV. Mustachio Ism 391 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: isn't about self denial, and the lifestyle isn't all that monastic. 392 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: I like to use the term slightly less ridiculous because 393 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: it's still ridiculous. Like Mustachians, we all live luxurious lives. 394 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: We can do air travel, we live in climate control houses, 395 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 1: we even have cars. But we're just being slightly less 396 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,199 Speaker 1: ridiculous than other people. It's not a life spent in 397 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: recliners either were Early retirement is about it. It's not 398 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: about quitting work. It's about freeing you to do your 399 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 1: best work. At the heart of the Mustache there is 400 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 1: a message that is as much about ethics as it 401 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: is about finance. My goal with Mr Ronie Mustache is 402 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: to make it a marketing project, to make frugality be 403 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: an aspirational thing. For rich people. That's positive on on 404 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: the world, the earth, and the ecosystem, as well as 405 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: your your wallet. There's a photo you might have seen 406 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: it online that's supposed to be a complete inventory of 407 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: Gandhi's possessions at the time of his death. Spectacles, two 408 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: pairs of sandals, a pocket watch, a prayer book, like 409 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,400 Speaker 1: a dozen or so items laid neatly on a piece 410 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: of cloth. You could fit the entire estate into a 411 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: kindergartener's backpack. People quibble over whether or not he owned 412 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,880 Speaker 1: a mattress or a desk in addition to the pictured items, 413 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: whether his iconic spinning wheel was still in his possession 414 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: at exactly this time. But looking at this photo, the 415 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: man's commitment to a simple, spare existence is like genuinely breathtaking. 416 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,679 Speaker 1: A pair of Gandhi's sandals sold at auction for just 417 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: north of dollars, and the new owner, one presumes, wasn't 418 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 1: gonna wear him. It was the thrill of owning a 419 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: piece of history. Humans are an owning animal in part 420 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: because we can be settled lives allow us to keep 421 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: more than we can carry, and in part we acquire 422 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,919 Speaker 1: our cash of things to compete with one another, maybe 423 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: for mating rights other forms of social status. The ever 424 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: present title pull of advertising pressures us to spend more, 425 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: to own more, and then to upgrade to the new model. 426 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: And in the hardest times of our lives, we might 427 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 1: keep things because it's just too hard to let them go, 428 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 1: even if they don't make us happy anymore, even if 429 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 1: we have more than we can use, Even as the 430 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: water rises around us, our fists want to hold tight 431 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: to the objects that might weigh us to the bottom. Okay, guys, 432 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,400 Speaker 1: I have got to get some rest before van call tomorrow. 433 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: So for parting thought on stuff and our complicated relationship 434 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: to it, let's go back to candy. Do you think 435 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 1: about stuff and material possessions differently than other people? Do 436 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: I do? I pack up some things, put them on 437 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: a bed close to the front door, and alert a 438 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: few of the neighbors, and the box says in case 439 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 1: of fire, and all they have to do is run 440 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: in and grab a few things. But every year that 441 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: box gets smaller because there are fewer things that I 442 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: think are really that important. Every year I think I 443 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: would just start over. I don't owned that there are 444 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: things that I really am so attached to that I 445 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 1: couldn't go on with life without them. Deeply Human is 446 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: a BBC World Service in American public media co production 447 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 1: with I Heart Media. It's written and hosted by Medssa. 448 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: Find me online at dssa on Instagram and Dessa Darling 449 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: on Twitter, and you can find my cookwear on your 450 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: next holiday whish list. Hey, every cooks wish desas Deeps. 451 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: I'm worried about you. Shut up, James, I hate you. 452 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: Those three words were forbidden in my house when I 453 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: was a kid. There were just too serious, too mean. 454 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: On the next Deeply Human, we're investigating hatred, that verbot 455 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 1: and emotion, its role in culture wars, difficult family dynamics, 456 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: and the cesspool of social media. And we'll get some 457 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: hopeful psychological insights too. Why do we hate? And how 458 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: can we stop? And if you've been enjoying the podcast 459 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: so far, take a moment to pin a little review 460 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: we read each and everyone. Thanks for listening, and I'll 461 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 1: meet you back here for the next round.